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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four oh seven of the

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Speaker 1: thing Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into

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Speaker 1: our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Have you

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Speaker 1: heard the news Therapy for Black Girls is launching our

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Speaker 1: to bring you new segments like so my Therapist Said,

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Speaker 1: where we break down viral therapy hot takes with real

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Speaker 1: mental health professionals, TBG community chats, where we unpack trending

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Speaker 1: pop culture topics that have us all in our feelings

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Speaker 1: and opportunities to connect with other sisters all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Sign up now at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com, slash

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Speaker 1: join Patreon for all the details about what we're planning

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Speaker 1: and to be the first to know when the doors

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Speaker 1: are open. We can't wait to see you inside. Driving

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Speaker 1: and getting your license is generally considered a milestone achievement

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Speaker 1: of adolescence in early adulthood, but for many, the prospect

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Speaker 1: of driving is an incredible burden that leads to terrible anxiety.

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Speaker 1: In fact, according to a twenty twenty study from the

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Speaker 1: Insurance Information Institute, only twenty five percent of sixteen year

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Speaker 1: olds in the United States had drivers licenses, compared to

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Speaker 1: forty three percent in nineteen ninety seven. But even for adults,

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Speaker 1: the prospect of driving presents obstacles, as was the case

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Speaker 1: with one of today's guests. Hey Fran Hay is a

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Speaker 1: wellness advocate, influencer, and most famously co hosts of the

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Speaker 1: friend Zone podcast. In a recent episode, she opened up

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Speaker 1: about her struggles with getting her license and learning to

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Speaker 1: drive as an adult. In today's conversation, I get to

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Speaker 1: learn more about how Fran worked to overcome her driving anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and then later on, I'll be joined by a clinical

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Speaker 1: psychologist to learn more about what informs driving anxiety. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited for you to hear this conversation. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session.

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Speaker 1: But thank you so much for being here with us today.

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Speaker 1: Friend Absolutely, it's a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: You know how I feel about you, So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the honor is mine, The honor is mine. So

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Speaker 1: one of the many things that I love about the

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Speaker 1: friend Zone is that you all are so candid and

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Speaker 1: kind of sharing your own kind of experiences of being

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Speaker 1: a human and like the things that you're struggling with.

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Speaker 1: And on a recent episode you've been talking about like

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Speaker 1: your anxiety around driving, So tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about this, or for maybe people who haven't heard

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Speaker 1: that episode of the friend Zone, and like your process

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Speaker 1: of learning to drive and getting your license.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so I am a true blue New Yorker.

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Speaker 3: If you know anything about New Yorkers. We take the

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Speaker 3: train everywhere, and it really isn't even a class thing.

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Speaker 2: It's not a race thing. It's just a convenience thing.

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Speaker 3: It's it's a train stop pretty much every couple of blocks.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's at this point, I think it's two

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Speaker 3: dollars and ninety cents, but you can imagine just how

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Speaker 3: easy it is to get where you're going, and it's

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Speaker 3: quick and accessible. So all of us just took the train.

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Speaker 3: So I never really felt called to I guess culturally,

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Speaker 3: like the culture of New York, to learn to drive,

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Speaker 3: to have a car, if you know anything about the

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Speaker 3: parking as well, that's not an easy thing. New York

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Speaker 3: is very expensive as well, so it's not easy to

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Speaker 3: have a car in New York City. So it just

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Speaker 3: wasn't something I had access to. I did have my

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Speaker 3: license in high school because it was a prerequisite, which

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Speaker 3: is great, but being that I didn't have a car,

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Speaker 3: I've learned just enough to pass the test and get

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Speaker 3: the license, But then after that, it wasn't much practicing

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Speaker 3: happening for me.

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Speaker 2: And so when I moved.

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Speaker 3: To Oregon three years ago, I realized, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna need a car. There's no train here and

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Speaker 3: I can't just jump on a three or the two.

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Speaker 3: And it's not that type of city. It's a walkable city,

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Speaker 3: but transportation isn't like the main thing here. So had

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Speaker 3: to get my car and to be learning in my

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Speaker 3: forties a pretty scary skill like driving was very overwhelming.

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Speaker 3: Actually was more overwhelming than I anticipated. And that's kind

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Speaker 3: of what I've been sharing on the friend zone, just

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Speaker 3: the journey of learning to drive in your forties.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, and I think it's something we take for granted.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in Louisiana, so like not

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Speaker 1: in a walkable place very much country. I mean you

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Speaker 1: could walk, but like to get anyway, seriously, you needed

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Speaker 1: to be able to drive. Yeah, so we ain't to

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Speaker 1: take driver's dad in high school and drive pretty soon afterwards.

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Speaker 1: But if you do grow up in a city like

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Speaker 1: New York, that is not the expectation. Now now, I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious, so to take the tests in New York,

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Speaker 1: what are you driving? If most people don't have cars,

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Speaker 1: there's the state of cars.

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Speaker 2: You have a license, Okay, if they had their own cars,

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Speaker 2: I guess they.

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Speaker 3: Assume mostly workers aren't going to have a car, So

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Speaker 3: I think maybe they make concessions considering I definitely did

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Speaker 3: not have a car.

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Speaker 2: I know for a fact, I.

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Speaker 3: Didn't borrow anyone because no one had a car. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think if I remember correctly, the exam had its

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Speaker 3: own car and you just kind of rolled with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, got it right.

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Speaker 1: So now that you have found yourself in Oregon, you know,

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Speaker 1: having to develop the skill that you had not for

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Speaker 1: a while. What are some of the specific fears that

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Speaker 1: have come up for you around driving?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Man, I think the biggest one for me was

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Speaker 2: the highway.

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Speaker 3: That one was the one that when I would get

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Speaker 3: on the highway, like I'd noticed, my shoulders would be

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Speaker 3: high and I'd have to tell myself, like lower your

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Speaker 3: shoulders and breathe. I talk to myself a lot while

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Speaker 3: I'm driving. The cool thing is a lot of our

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Speaker 3: listeners who have also been driving for a very long

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Speaker 3: time have given me a lot of amazing tips just

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Speaker 3: sound like the best apps to use. That kind of

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Speaker 3: gives you more of a heads up on which side

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Speaker 3: to get out of so you're not as worried about

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Speaker 3: exiting or entering or And that's been really cool, just

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Speaker 3: like the community we've created and there was no judgment.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of like, hey, we got you learning

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Speaker 3: the thing. So that's been really cool. But I'd say

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Speaker 3: the Highway is probably the one that even now I'm

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Speaker 3: about to hit a full year of driving by myself,

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Speaker 3: and I still kind of feel the little pings in

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Speaker 3: my body whenever I have to merge onto that highway.

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Speaker 1: And so I wasn't aware that there were apps that

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Speaker 1: would plan out your route and it tells you, like

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Speaker 1: what lane to be in to make the exit.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, I just using the Google Maps.

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Speaker 3: Some people liked ways, some people didn't, But a lot

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Speaker 3: of the maps they kind of have these arrows to

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Speaker 3: let you know, hey, in this many miles, you're gonna

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Speaker 3: you know, exit all right, and stay on the left

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Speaker 3: lane and stay on the right lane. It kind of

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Speaker 3: will just tell you, even while you're driving, get to

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Speaker 3: the third lane or move to the second lane. And

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Speaker 3: that's extremely useful when you're already kind of panicking on,

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Speaker 3: oh my goodness, am I gonna make it to the

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Speaker 3: lane I need to be in in the exit time?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's just like all the things that kind

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Speaker 3: of kick up so helpful, you know, technology becomes helpful

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Speaker 3: in them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When you've started kind of relearning to drive,

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Speaker 1: did you take additional like classes? Is it a friend

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Speaker 1: or family member who's been helping you, Like, how did

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Speaker 1: you reacclimate yourself to the process of driving.

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Speaker 2: I will say.

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Speaker 3: This, Yeah, my partner definitely got in the car with

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Speaker 3: me just to make sure I was okay. But it

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Speaker 3: was surprising that I didn't forget in all those years.

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Speaker 3: I mean I had to be seventeen when we first

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Speaker 3: took the test. Obviously eighteen when you use your license.

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Speaker 3: But in all those years, I think I maybe drove

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Speaker 3: a couple of time throughout, you know, when you're like

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Speaker 3: in different cities as you get older, but not the

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Speaker 3: way I'm driving now. And when I got in the car,

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Speaker 3: it kind of was like riding a bicycle. All came

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Speaker 3: back to me, just the reflex of like knowing how

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Speaker 3: to adjust the mirrors and how to adjust the chair.

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Speaker 2: And making sure you could see everything.

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Speaker 3: With clarity and knowing where everything is and making sure

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Speaker 3: you know how to use it and all the things

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Speaker 3: that you'll need while you're on the road. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was surprised. I was pleasantly surprised that it kind

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Speaker 3: of just like all came back to me how to

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Speaker 3: turn properly, like I was turning and driving, you know, slowly. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I was doing it, and to me, that was

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Speaker 3: the coolest part.

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Speaker 2: I will say, people.

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Speaker 3: Get really angry when you drive at the speed limit.

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Speaker 1: Depends on what lane you're in, right, Like if you're

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Speaker 1: all the way over to the left, people are expecting

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Speaker 1: you to be going superfest right.

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Speaker 2: But even on the street just normally like not because

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Speaker 2: the highway that's.

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Speaker 3: Kind of expected, right, people are gonna get annoyed, and

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Speaker 3: you know, but I mean just the everyday city streets,

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Speaker 3: I found that people would hank it me.

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Speaker 2: I kind of act a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of rage in people by driving the speed limit or

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Speaker 3: even going above.

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Speaker 2: And I had to actually have a conversation.

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Speaker 3: With myself because I found myself feeling like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe I should drive faster, but then I'm like, no,

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Speaker 3: I have to drive at the speed that is legal,

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Speaker 3: and then I'm comfortable with right now, Like I'm still learning,

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Speaker 3: and I've had to really fight to not feel pressured

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Speaker 3: by the middle fingers coming.

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Speaker 2: Up at me and people yelling, and I'm like, whoa.

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Speaker 3: The rage that this activates just it was like interesting

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Speaker 3: to me, and it gets so angry.

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Speaker 2: I'm literally just driving, yeah, steed limit.

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Speaker 3: That's something that I've also had to learn, And I

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Speaker 3: talked about that on the show, and we got a

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Speaker 3: lot of feedback with people saying, oh, yeah, I get pissed,

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Speaker 3: like we got places to be.

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Speaker 2: People got things to do, Like nobody got time for

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Speaker 2: you to me driving like a turtle.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I feel like that is something that we always

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Speaker 1: hear about road rage, right, but I think definitely throughout

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Speaker 1: the pandemic and now like I feel like people's rage

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Speaker 1: has like increased a lot of it probably doesn't even

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Speaker 1: have to do with like being on the road rageful

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Speaker 1: about all things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's it's misdirected, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: try to to consider that, but at the same time,

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Speaker 3: it's like overwhelming as someone that is developing, like working

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Speaker 3: through fears that are kicking up for me, and then

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Speaker 3: having to also quote unquote accommodate people's rage on the

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Speaker 3: road for whatever it is that they are dealing with.

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Speaker 3: They don't know if like I'm a new driver, they

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Speaker 3: don't know if I'm just not a great driver, or

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Speaker 3: if I'm older, like it's just automatic anger.

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Speaker 2: That's been probably one of the most interesting things that

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Speaker 2: I guess I didn't consider that's a new driver.

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Speaker 1: So is there any anxiety that has popped up for

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Speaker 1: you around like parking initially, Yes, because it's that feeling

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Speaker 1: that everyone's watching you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to do it quickly and perfectly, and

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Speaker 2: you can't waste time.

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Speaker 3: Especially I will say Oregon is much calmer than New

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Speaker 3: York because in New York you really don't have time

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Speaker 3: to waste when you're parking, like there's gonna be cars

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Speaker 3: behind you lining up, honking, people yelling, cursing, like y'all

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Speaker 3: are you know? New York's a different beast. But Oregon,

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Speaker 3: I will say, for the most part, because there's less traffic,

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Speaker 3: I can find little places to practice, you know, Like

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Speaker 3: that's what I did the first couple of weeks, Like

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Speaker 3: I went to like a target parking lot and just

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Speaker 3: practice pulling and pulling out, especially if it's two cars

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Speaker 3: next to each other, Like can you pull it in

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Speaker 3: without being too close and still being able to.

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Speaker 2: Get out the car.

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Speaker 3: I practiced some like residential areas that had a lot

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Speaker 3: less cars and traffic and kind of put myself in

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Speaker 3: that position to feel comfortable, and.

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Speaker 2: I think that's what helped me out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what about like backing into a spot in parallel parking,

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Speaker 1: like to me, those feel like more advanced.

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Speaker 2: Gil I'm not at the backing up with.

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Speaker 3: I make excuses like, oh, I'd prefer to just pull in,

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Speaker 3: but I'm just.

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Speaker 2: Not there yet.

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Speaker 3: Parallel parking surprisingly came natural, I'd say, like for some

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Speaker 3: reason my brain was able to understand the movements of it,

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Speaker 3: like the technical aspects, and so that is okay.

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Speaker 2: I think what I'm still learning though, is gauging the space.

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Speaker 3: You know, because I drive an SUV. So it's like,

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Speaker 3: are you comfortably able to park in this space or not?

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Speaker 3: Because you have to decide that so quickly, you know,

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Speaker 3: as you're pulling up to it and working on those muscles.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't personally, I also pull in.

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Speaker 2: I think it's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband like prepares to back into stuff, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like saying necessary, and it's like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's like a concert or something you want to

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Speaker 1: be able to drive out.

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Speaker 2: That makes me feel about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, You're not alone in it at all. Right, Knowing

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Speaker 1: what I know of you, like you exude like this easefulness,

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Speaker 1: like your whole goal is to head thing as easeful

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Speaker 1: as possible. This feels very like in the face of that, right,

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Speaker 1: like nothing about driving really is easeful, especially when you

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Speaker 1: are at first learning. So how have you kind of

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Speaker 1: reconciled this like very difficult thing that feels very against

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Speaker 1: how you normally show up in the world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's the hard part.

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Speaker 3: There's no way to make it easeful. Like it's just

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Speaker 3: a part of life that's not easeful. And I think

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Speaker 3: that it's like it's like anything. It's like there's gonna

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Speaker 3: be some things rand that you just can't control and

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Speaker 3: you still have to be a part of and it

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Speaker 3: hasn't been joyful. You have to relax because I just

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Speaker 3: feel so tense in a lot of moments when I'm driving.

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Speaker 3: It's slowly starting to dissipate because I think I'm finding

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Speaker 3: more trust.

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Speaker 2: In my skills.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing where you're learning something, it's scary

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Speaker 3: to feel like you don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: But I'm trusting myself more. I'm trusting my defensive driving.

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Speaker 3: That's the biggest one thing, because you might trust your

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Speaker 3: own skill set, but you also don't have control of

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Speaker 3: the life other cars around you, Like I said, their

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Speaker 3: rage or even just their skill set. There's just so

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Speaker 3: much that you have to consider when you're on the road,

295
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Speaker 3: you're in this big metal thing going at insane speeds

296
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Speaker 3: or at least the cars around me are. And so

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Speaker 3: it's the one thing I have to say, Like it's

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Speaker 3: not useful, but I do do that help me.

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Speaker 2: Like I drive with.

300
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Speaker 3: Like a blanket wrapped around me to help me stay grounded.

301
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Speaker 3: I have a diffuser that diffuses essential oils that call me.

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Speaker 3: I make sure I have like a driving playlist that

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Speaker 3: is songs that call me, you know, so like I

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Speaker 3: can control the aspects that I can control, and then

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Speaker 3: the rest.

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Speaker 2: I'm just at the mercy of driving, Like that's just

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Speaker 2: what it is. I try my best. Yeah carry, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it here is.

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Speaker 1: And I think you bring up a good point around

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Speaker 1: like when you're learning new skills. But I think about

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Speaker 1: like some skills are very different than others, right, like right,

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Speaker 1: some of them are safe, exactly, Like we can have

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Speaker 1: anxiety about public speaking, but likely nobody's gonna die if

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Speaker 1: you forget your words. This feels very different because the

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Speaker 1: level of controlling what you're doing, but also the other

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Speaker 1: drivers really pushes you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it has been a huge learning

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Speaker 3: lesson for me because one thing about a person like

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Speaker 3: me that does like ease is that I can have

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Speaker 3: control issues because you think that you can control every

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Speaker 3: aspect of your life to make it quote unquote easeful.

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Speaker 3: And for the most part, I do have a pretty

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Speaker 3: easeful life, but I also have to leave room for

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Speaker 3: the parts that are just not gonna be that way

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Speaker 3: because it's just not realistic, you know, like it's just

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Speaker 3: not life in its full range.

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Speaker 2: I guess you'd say.

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Speaker 3: And I have to be fair and realistic and flexible

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Speaker 3: with those aspects.

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Speaker 2: And like, I think that's why I stayed away from

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Speaker 2: trying to drive for so long.

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Speaker 3: Because I knew that it was an aspect of life

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Speaker 3: that was like scary and out of my control and

334
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Speaker 3: all of the things.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't know what clicked this year because.

336
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Speaker 3: I have been living here for three years, but it

337
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Speaker 3: just it was this year that's something clicked.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it was, but it.

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Speaker 3: Was like the first day of April and I literally

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Speaker 3: told my partner because we had been driving a little

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Speaker 3: bit here and there, but I was like, I'm getting

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Speaker 3: in the car today and I'm going by myself.

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Speaker 2: And he was like, okay, I'm like I'm gonna do it.

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Speaker 2: To do list. I made a to do list in

345
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Speaker 2: the notes.

346
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Speaker 3: App of like five things I wanted to do, like

347
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Speaker 3: drop off a package, go buy this perfume I wanted

348
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Speaker 3: at the mall. Like I just like wrote five little things,

349
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Speaker 3: and I told myself that I was going to get

350
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Speaker 3: in the car and knock out those five things on

351
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Speaker 3: my to do list and not come home until they

352
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 3: were done. And I did that, and I felt so

353
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Speaker 3: proud because it was so hard, and I wanted to

354
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Speaker 3: cry and I was trembling for most of it, but

355
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Speaker 3: I did it. I remember I came and parked in

356
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Speaker 3: front of my house. I just started clapping. I was

357
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 3: in that car clapping so hard, and I was like,

358
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Speaker 3: you did it.

359
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Speaker 2: You did it.

360
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Speaker 3: Like it just was like and I guess that's the

361
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,440
Speaker 3: thing about hard things, right, It's like you do them

362
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 3: and then you're just like so proud of yourself for

363
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,880
Speaker 3: having the adurance and the bravery to just do it.

364
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 3: I'm in my forties, Like there are people my partners

365
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,959
Speaker 3: started driving when he was like thirteen, like just around

366
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 3: with his uncles and stuff, and so his skill set

367
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 3: is like it's like light years ahead of mine, and

368
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,640
Speaker 3: I have to not feel I'm catching up to anyone

369
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 3: else and just be excited that I'm developing this thing

370
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,160
Speaker 3: that I was not able to do before. And that's

371
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Speaker 3: been really cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that that is the beauty, Like

373
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Speaker 1: my therapist's heart is like beaming, right, because that is

374
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Speaker 1: what happens when we do hard things, the things that

375
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 1: we're afraid of, right, Like you finally learn that, hey,

376
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 1: it was scary, but I did it right, and so

377
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 1: that then builds this confidence and a muscle to continue

378
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Speaker 1: to do difficult things. I think that we may be.

379
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Speaker 2: Afraid of pride to see the progress.

380
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Speaker 3: No, I'm definitely not the best driver yet, and I

381
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 3: still have so much to learn and so much to

382
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 3: work through. But I went from like creating that to

383
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 3: do list and trying to get through it that day

384
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 3: to now it's not even a second thought, Like if

385
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 3: we need groceries.

386
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 2: I'm jumping in my car and going and getting them.

387
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 2: I'm driving myself to the gym.

388
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 3: And it's actually been really helpful in me taking better

389
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 3: care of myself, you know, like I'm able to do

390
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 3: the things I need to do for myself, and I

391
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,160
Speaker 3: feel like, oh, that's so cool.

392
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Speaker 2: It's like an added bonus to my quality of life.

393
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,679
Speaker 3: And so that in itself inspires me to keep learning

394
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 3: and keep growing, trying to get better. And you know,

395
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 3: I still will sometimes go off into a parking lot

396
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Speaker 3: and practice because you can never get too comfortable. I

397
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 3: know people that have been driving for twenty years that

398
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 3: still feel scared. Then they tell me that they're like yeah,

399
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 3: or they still don't feel comfortable, like you said, backing

400
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 3: up or parallel parking, and I'm like, okay.

401
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 2: That actually helps me to.

402
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 3: Not assume that I have to be this perfect driver

403
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 3: within the year or else it's like I wasted my time.

404
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 3: It's like, no, you just gotta do what you gotta do.

405
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 3: Keep going and it's been great.

406
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, more from our conversation after the break. So for

407
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Speaker 1: the other two years that you've been in Oregon, Fran

408
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: had your partner just been driving you around taking uber

409
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: so you were just kind of managing with it a

410
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 1: combination of BOTHA was able, he would take me, and

411
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: if he wasn't around or wasn't able, I would jump

412
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 1: in an Uber or I have a few friends out

413
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Speaker 1: here at the drive.

414
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Speaker 2: So usually if we were going somewhere and they would

415
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,919
Speaker 2: just like come and scoop me.

416
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 3: And there were times where like if my partner was

417
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 3: out of town for work or for family things, our

418
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,919
Speaker 3: car would be sitting in front of my house and

419
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 3: here I am having an uber pull up behind it.

420
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 2: To pick me up, and I just was like, girl,

421
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 2: that started.

422
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 3: Kind of letting me know, like, you guys paid for

423
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 3: this car. You know you saved up for this car,

424
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 3: Like for it to be sitting there catching dust just

425
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 3: because your partner isn't in town. It was affecting me emotionally.

426
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 3: But for some reason I couldn't do it.

427
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was.

428
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 3: I had such a block, like nothing in me wanted

429
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 3: to get in that car, and nothing in me like

430
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: And my partner would ask and say, hey, let's go

431
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: to a park, and I would always say no, and

432
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 3: he was just like, why are you so resistant?

433
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm just scared. There's really no way around it.

434
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: I'm scared and I don't feel ready.

435
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 3: And sometimes if he would catch me on a more

436
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 3: open day, I would say okay, and we'd like drive

437
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 3: a little.

438
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 2: But I'd be in such a panic.

439
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah that it just wasn't something I was like, how

440
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 3: could I do this, like how am I supposed to drive?

441
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: And I'm so scared to do this?

442
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: And then you know there's an added element of like

443
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 3: I'm so much older and feeling like I'm late can

444
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 3: developing that skill, and am I just going to be

445
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 3: this nervous driver because I'm older and I locked in

446
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,239
Speaker 3: a little too late, Like just all the things that

447
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: your mind kind of plays around stories you create, all

448
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 3: the stories. Like I said, I don't know what hit

449
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: in April of this year. I don't know if it

450
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 3: was like we were in quarantine for all those years,

451
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 3: which was kicking up a lot of emotional things, and

452
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 3: maybe there was like an element of freedom that a

453
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 3: lot of us were feeling this year of needing like.

454
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 2: Breakout of this fog.

455
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 3: And I feel like it may have tied in with

456
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 3: that of that feeling of like I was in this discomfort,

457
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 3: in this sort of restricted space for so many years

458
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 3: and using that as a crutch almost and then this

459
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 3: year something happens. I just busted out of it and

460
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 3: got in that car by myself. I said, what do

461
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: they say, do it scared?

462
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: Do it scared? I? Sure did that?

463
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: You did?

464
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: I was like, not kidding you?

465
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 3: In my hands were trembling, But I've learned to talk

466
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: myself through it, like out loud, I'll talk to myself,

467
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: like I'll say, what's kicking up? Or if I make

468
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 3: a mistake, you know, obviously they are mistakes that I'll make,

469
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 3: and they're scary because you're driving. Like it's consequences of mistakes.

470
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: Are very different. You know.

471
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: When you're driving, it's like it's life altering and that's

472
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 3: scary about it, by the grace of God, And no

473
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 3: mistake has been too crazy so far, you know, Like

474
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 3: it's just been little things where maybe I turned wrong,

475
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 3: or there's certain intersections like those four way ones where

476
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 3: y'all have to kind of look at each other and

477
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: decide when. Yeah, like you know, just learning those things

478
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 3: that you're not gonna learn until you're in it, Like

479
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: a book can tell you one thing, or an instructor,

480
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: but like when it's you by yourself having to use

481
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 3: your own driving instinct, something that like you haven't developed

482
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 3: in all this time, Like it's you know, touch and go,

483
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 3: but like there's no other way for me to learn

484
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: it than to just like be in it, so I'm trying.

485
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: I also think that there's something really powerful about like

486
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: honoring the fear right, like, you know, I just don't

487
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: feel ready, right, But then when you were, then you

488
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: just jumped in the car, right. So I think that

489
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: that's an important lesson too. Then it's okay to kind

490
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: of just hold the fear and kind of be with

491
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: it without pushing ourselves past where we're comfortable just yet.

492
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I'm grateful that my partner because I think

493
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: that helps too. Write your environment, not making you do

494
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 3: something before you're ready. Because we did have moments where

495
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: he seemed frustrated because he wasn't fully understanding, like you

496
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: kind of know how to drive. We have a car,

497
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: Like in his brain, he's like, what's missing? What's the block?

498
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: But there came a day where he came up to

499
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: me and.

500
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: Was like, you know, I don't want to make you

501
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: feel like you have to do this thing because we

502
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: have a car. Whatever block you're feeling is there for

503
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 3: a reason, and I don't want to push that. So

504
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: he was like apologetic because he had his moments, but

505
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: he's kind of like, girl, what's.

506
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: The issue here?

507
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: So I'm sure that that makes learning hard if you

508
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: don't have an environment that supports however long it might

509
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: take you to be developing these skills, or if you

510
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: don't develop them or you do, like, whatever the case

511
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: may be. I'm grateful to have the space to take

512
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 3: as long as I need to and make my mistakes.

513
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: You know.

514
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 3: I feel really affirmed because I went to pick him

515
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: up from the airport the other day. And that's cool too,

516
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: to kind of contribute to the ecosystem of our life.

517
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, now I can make those airport

518
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 3: runs or whatever.

519
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: You almost feel like an adult, like and a driving adult. Now, yeah,

520
00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: you know this was a notch.

521
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

522
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: Now, are there certain boundaries you put in place because

523
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: you are still kind of developing, so you know, maybe

524
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: like driving in bad weather or at night, like, are

525
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: there certain things you're just like, okay.

526
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: Not yet, right.

527
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: That's funny because we just talked about that.

528
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 3: I am still not comfortable fully with night driving, especially

529
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 3: not of its raining.

530
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: I do live in the PNW.

531
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 3: If you know anything about it, it's a very rainy place,

532
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 3: especially what I guess our version of winter is more

533
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 3: so just like rain, a rainy season. So it's like

534
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: you have to get comfortable with rain if you're gonna

535
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: be in this part of the country where it rains

536
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 3: more than other parts. The other day, I was on

537
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: the highway and it started pouring, and I almost felt

538
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: like God was like, okay.

539
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: Next, can you do you little together and stop saying.

540
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay.

541
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: I've been learning by having to do it in a

542
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 3: lot of ways. You can't prepare in a lot of ways,

543
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. You just have to do it.

544
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: So I have been put in those situations. But I

545
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 3: jokingly told my friends the other day, like, whenever I

546
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: have to do that rain highway night time combo, that

547
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: next level that's like ap driving.

548
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: So what wish more people knew about, like learning how

549
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: to drive as an adult.

550
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 3: Like we said, it's gonna be scary. A couple of

551
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: people reached out to me saying they were grateful that

552
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: I've been sharing because it's something they've had a block

553
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: with as well, and that they felt a lot of

554
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 3: shame for, you know, and I think there is a

555
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: lot of shame because you almost feel like I don't

556
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 3: know how to do this thing. And I think the

557
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 3: biggest thing I'd say is not late. You know, a

558
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: lot of us grew up in different circumstances I'm sure

559
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: you have your reason. Maybe you didn't have money for

560
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: a car, or like me, I didn't have money, but

561
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 3: I also wasn't in a city that was accommodating for

562
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 3: having a car. Like we have our reasons for why

563
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: we didn't develop these skill sets, and I think the

564
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 3: biggest thing is to just forget that part, just accept

565
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: that part, like that just.

566
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: Is what it is. I don't necessarily know how to help.

567
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 3: Someone work around the shame of that, but I think

568
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: for me, it's just the doing, the baby steps, the starting.

569
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: Just tell yourself you want to do it, and like

570
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: I did that day, just give yourself a to do list,

571
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: like maybe just I'm gonna go to the market today

572
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: and just buy my groceries.

573
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: Instead of ordering them, you know what I mean, Like, give.

574
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: Yourself one step and you'll be surprised how that one

575
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: step will feel so good and you'll be so proud,

576
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: and it'll inspire you just to you know, keep adding

577
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 3: more and also doing it is on your own terms.

578
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: Like I said, there's still a lot I'm learning, and

579
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: I'm taking it very slow. There's no hack, there's no tips.

580
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: It's just like you just got to in that car

581
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: and it's gonna be scary and you're gonna be.

582
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: Trembling, but the only way to do it is to

583
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: do it.

584
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you talked about heavy your diffuser you're driving.

585
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: Are there other things that have you've incorporated into like

586
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: the ritual of driving that have made it, you know,

587
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: a little bit more comfortable for you.

588
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: I feel like.

589
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 3: Those are the only things I can say that I've

590
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: done for the ritual of driving that really helped me. Also,

591
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: just like I am someone that can't have too much

592
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: stuff around me when I'm nervous, Like I can't have

593
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: anything in the back seat, nothing in the seat next

594
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: to me, Like it's almost like I need space to think.

595
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: So I get a.

596
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: Little neurotic about like the state of the car when

597
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: I have to get in it. And this might not

598
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: be for everyone, but for me, I pray right before

599
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: I drive off, I have to do it. I pray

600
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: I am just like I talk to the car. I

601
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: Dustin and Sante make fun of me for this, but

602
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: I talk to the car like this is my homie.

603
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: We're about to get on this road together, you know,

604
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: And for me, it's like we're coming together to do

605
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: this thing and I'm thankful to have a car to

606
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: do this with, you know, And I'm always like, tell

607
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 3: the car, like, Okay, we're going to be safe. I

608
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 3: thank God for the ability to do this, the access,

609
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: the resources, the bravery, the skill set, and tell them.

610
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: You know, I just hope I get home safely.

611
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: And really just a lot of talking to myself, like

612
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: talking myself through it. And it don't matter how cooky

613
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: you might look in the car talking to yourself. I'm

614
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: sure people have pulled up like is she good?

615
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: I loves it happening over there?

616
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: What's going on it?

617
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: You know, and do whatever. For a while, I didn't

618
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: play music. It was like I need silence, I need

619
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: to breathe, I need to think. I need to see

620
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: what I'm like. You know, how to see what you're doing,

621
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: you almost need to hear. Is like you need all

622
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: your senses to be clear. So it took me a

623
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: while to get comfortable with music, and now music is

624
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: actually a part of the comfort for me. So it's

625
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: funny how as you can developing skill sets, you'll need

626
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: to kind of reconfigure what you need to do to

627
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: support them.

628
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 2: And that's been kind of cool to see too. Yeah,

629
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: create that little universe in your car.

630
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, create that ritual for yourself whatever it looks

631
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: like right for you, it's the blankets and diffusers. For

632
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: other people, it may be something different.

633
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, some water, some tea, like

634
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: just get it, yeah, get it going in there.

635
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: As long as you're getting in there and driving.

636
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: You know, right right, whatever helps you get in the car.

637
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: So there's the like mechanics of driving. But there's also

638
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: all this other stuff associated with cars, right, like what's

639
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: the tire pressure? It's the tank full? Like these lights?

640
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: Me has that like pumping gas? Yes, So has that

641
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: added to your anxiety or do you feel like, okay,

642
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: these are things I kind of have more control over.

643
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: No, that's absolutely. I'm actually glad you mentioned that, because

644
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: that is part of the thing of like feeling comfortable

645
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: with your car and a lot of That's what I

646
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: did was that even before I started driving, getting on

647
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: the road, I looked up like YouTube videos about my car,

648
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: literally like what do different lights mean?

649
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: I looked up the reading manual.

650
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: I know not everyone's gonna do that, but for me

651
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: and how my brain works, it's like, if I'm gonna

652
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: be in this machine, I need to know how to

653
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: use this thing. I need to know what each light

654
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: that is possibly gonna kick on means.

655
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: And once it does, what does that mean?

656
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: Luckily for me, the only thing that's turned on is

657
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: the tire pressure one, which you know, wasn't as scary.

658
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: I just at first I was like, oh my god,

659
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: there's a car about to like my tires about to

660
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: blow up in a highway. I didn't know exactly what

661
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: that meant, like how much time do I have? What

662
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 3: does that mean? And then you learn too that there's

663
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: a lot of nails on the street that mess with

664
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: your tires, which is like, where are all these nails

665
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: coming from?

666
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: All these nails coming from?

667
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: Any nail?

668
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 4: Is it?

669
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: Like from the great question around the city? Right?

670
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: It's trippy to me, so, you know, learning about that,

671
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: I will say, that's a little scary. Is like the

672
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 3: cars are very technologically advanced now, right, like you have

673
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: smart cars, and to me that's a little scary too,

674
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: like to be so reliant on this screen.

675
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: And the other day my GPS screen went.

676
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: Black for a couple seconds while I was on the highway,

677
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 3: kind of like needing to know where I was going,

678
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: and my heart sank because I'm in the highway literally.

679
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: Relying on needing to know, needing this app to tell

680
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: me what exit and what lane.

681
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: And it kind of also taught me like, hey, you

682
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: also have to develop skills outside of the technological aspects

683
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: of the car, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

684
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 3: you can rely on them, but like you see how

685
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: the screen just went black, how it knocked you out.

686
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: So now I try to park my car without relying

687
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: on the cameras. Well, I got and a lot of

688
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: tips on driving places and not necessarily always relying on

689
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: the GPS to show you every way to get there,

690
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: you know, like having plan b's.

691
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 2: It's a lot of work to be a key driver.

692
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: The car is also like technologically saving, like you're basically

693
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: driving a computer, right, and so it's not just like

694
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: the gas it's like, okay, if this thing goes out,

695
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: like what all can I do with this car now?

696
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: Right?

697
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: Yeah? And having to have these like backup plans for

698
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: what happens when the computer crashes, so.

699
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely and just and also you know, the biggest thing

700
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: too is like, particularly with parking, right, a lot of

701
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: us do rely on these cameras. I think it's a

702
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 3: disservice to like your own ability to kind of rely

703
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: on technology to help you with everything.

704
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: Like I do think it's useful and I'm grateful.

705
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: Because obviously it makes it a lot easier to see

706
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: the car buying me on the screen. But also I

707
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: just don't want to rely on it where let's say

708
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: my camera's not working one day, then I feel like

709
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: I can't park, Like I don't want to that type

710
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 3: of driver. And so it has been a learning of

711
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: like being thankful for the technology, but also not allowing

712
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: myself to be like a sitting duck without it, you know,

713
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 3: and figuring out how to do that. If you want

714
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: to be a great driver, it's like you're going to

715
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 3: put in some work, Like I get it now.

716
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: I thought you got it and figured it out. They're

717
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: just so high tech and it's like interesting to try

718
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: to keep up.

719
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: Right, right, Yeah, And I think as a newer driver,

720
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: like your appreciation for it, I think it is probably

721
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: different than somebody who's been driving since they were fifteen,

722
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: right right.

723
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: Well, almost like takes it for granted too exactly.

724
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do this, yep.

725
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: But it's been cool, you know.

726
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: I think for my mental health that I think was

727
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 3: like really helpful this year to have this new goal.

728
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: A lot of our goals.

729
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: Are very work oriented, and when people ask you, you know,

730
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 3: what do you have planned for the year, we normally

731
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 3: are discussing like business or like creative project or things

732
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: that we want to tap into. But it felt kind

733
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 3: of nice to have a goal that like, I wasn't

734
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: making money off of. This wasn't a business plan. It

735
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: was like solely for me as a human, like just

736
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 3: human development. And I kept saying, this is a big

737
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 3: human development year for me, you know, And I don't

738
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: think I have had years like that in a long

739
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: time because I normally am so work oriented, and it

740
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: felt kind of nice to just have this project that's

741
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: just for me, like you know, me to elevate I guess,

742
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: my experience as a human being. And that's been really cool.

743
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 3: It almost makes you be like, Okay, what's.

744
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: Next, noxt, Like what is you have next human development goal?

745
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: Is there like a driving goal that you have, or

746
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: like okay, I want to do a road trip or

747
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: that's you know what you're thinking.

748
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I went on a road trip with a

749
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: friend of mine and it was cool to be able

750
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 3: to contribute to the legs of it, you know, and

751
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 3: she's like, I'll take this part, you take that part.

752
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: But I think it'd be really cool to be that

753
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: person that just packs my bags, you know, throws them

754
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 3: in the trunk and comfortably drives for six hours or

755
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 3: eight hours. Like I'm impressed when I think of people

756
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: driving for that long. The most I've done is maybe

757
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 3: forty five an hour. You have to be so alert,

758
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: send so many things to consider for that long.

759
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: So thinking of like.

760
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 3: Six hours or three plus hour road trips, that's definitely

761
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 3: next on the docket for me, just like the endurance

762
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: I guess of these skill sets and adding on, like

763
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: we went camping and that was really cool to pack

764
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: up the car and drive to the camp site, you know,

765
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: and like hello and build our little worlds. And I'm

766
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: just like, ah, this is so cool. Like the access

767
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: and freedom that being able to drive gives you has

768
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 3: been like my favorite part because now I'm just looking

769
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: for things to get into, Like I'm a love sex.

770
00:37:59,080 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: What can I visit?

771
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: What's the new adventure now?

772
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: And I love that because that's a lot of why

773
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: I moved here.

774
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: You know, people felt Oregon was random and it was

775
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: but I was looking.

776
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: Forward to the access to nature.

777
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 3: I'm coming from New York, you know, concrete jungle, and

778
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 3: so it's been cool to now finally have a skill

779
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 3: set that can contribute to me enjoying why I moved

780
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 3: out to Oregon.

781
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: So this may be another skill that you're not quite

782
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: comfortable with yet. But what's been your experience with like

783
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: vackseat drivers? Right, So, now that you have the experience

784
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: of knowing what it's like to drive, what's it like

785
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: for you to have people in the bag saying like, what, dude,

786
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: you know do all this?

787
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 3: I will say this, The only one I've had that

788
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: I felt that way with was my partner, because he's

789
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: been in the car with me the most. I've only

790
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: driven two of my friends, okay, and they were more

791
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: so excited for me the whole time and being like,

792
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: oh my god, the pitch you that I can honor say.

793
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: They didn't share their thoughts.

794
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 3: On maybe the turn being this way or maybe next time, hey,

795
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: none of that. It was just this pure excitement to

796
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: see me in a different way, in a way that

797
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 3: they've never experienced and in a way that they know

798
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: that I have been working on and excited about now.

799
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: My partner, who has been there a little longer, he can't.

800
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: Help it something.

801
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: He's kind of the de facto driving instructor at this point,

802
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: so he's gonna say something.

803
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: And we've actually had to have.

804
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: Conversations about that, and I said to him, with the

805
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: way that I learn, I'd prefer if you kept mental

806
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 3: note and then after, when we're done driving, I'm gonna

807
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 3: ask you always because I do love the feedback, but

808
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 3: not while I'm driving. Yeah, Like, that's the boundary I

809
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 3: had to set because if I'm already nervous, right, and

810
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 3: then you're telling me like and you know, I don't

811
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: know what it is about backseat drivers, but the way

812
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 3: they say it always feels nerve wracking. Even if they

813
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 3: say it calm, you just don't land.

814
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: Well when you're already nervous.

815
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 3: So we kind of set that boundary, which has been

816
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: really helpful because he'll take mental notes and then he'll

817
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: tell me afterwards, like with this turn here, you can't

818
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 3: do that or stop da da da, and it's like okay, cool,

819
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: and it's like I'm out of the car, so I

820
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: can receive it fully as opposed to feeling triggered or

821
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: like emotionally charged by you correcting me in real time

822
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: when I'm already doing something i'm scared of, you know,

823
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: And that's what works for me. And luckily he received

824
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 3: that and we've been able to do that moving forward,

825
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 3: because I just panic when you're correcting me in real time,

826
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: Like it just makes me panic. It doesn't work for

827
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 3: my personality. So I'm glad that we nip that in

828
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 3: the butt.

829
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: So what words of information do you have fran from

830
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: maybe other new drivers or those who are still contemplating

831
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: kind of getting behind the wheel.

832
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 3: The biggest thing I'd say is just talk yourself through

833
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 3: what's kicking up for you. If you're feeling shame, then

834
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: like have that combo with yourself while you're driving. Like

835
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 3: that really helped me, Like I'm like, what, Like when

836
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: I got on the highway, I'm like, Okay, you're so

837
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 3: nervous right now, you're trembling, your shoulders are up, your

838
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: breathing is short. What's the scariest part? And like saying

839
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: it out loud while I'm in it, for some reason

840
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: helped me because it was like I was able to

841
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: kind of pinpoint I'm scared of merging. I'm scared that

842
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 3: when I pull up, I'm not gonna be driving fast

843
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: enough and the car behind me is gonna hit me,

844
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 3: you know.

845
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 2: And it's like kind of calling it out.

846
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 3: And that allowed me to focus on the parts that

847
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: scared me so that I can keep working on them to.

848
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: The point that like I've better my skill set and

849
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: whatever that fear point is.

850
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 3: And then I get comfortable over time because now merging,

851
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 3: because I knew it was a scary part, Like now

852
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: I've been working on merging, like focusing on the merging,

853
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: focusing on the fear of the exits. The only way

854
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: you'll know what the scary things are is by like

855
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: saying them out loud and giving yourself an opportunity to

856
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 3: be like okay, and then I need to put more

857
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: energy into that. Like then I gotta keep getting on

858
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 3: the highway every day, and I gotta merge every day,

859
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 3: and I got to exit every day.

860
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: So I say, like, face it, that's the biggest thing.

861
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: Just face it. It's going to be terrified.

862
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: The only way that you'll get better at it is

863
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: by doing it. And use me as an example. I'm

864
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 3: only what eight months in, but the difference in my

865
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: quality of life in those eight months has been like amazing.

866
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: Imagine me in five years. The five years are going

867
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: to pass anyways, right, you might as well get a

868
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: skill set up in there.

869
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, like you might as well. So hopefully

870
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: thank you that's helpful in some way.

871
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for that, Friand I think it will

872
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: be helpful for a lot of people. This has been

873
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: such important assets that you've shared. I really appreciate you

874
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: kind of you know, talking about your experience. I do think,

875
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: you know, especially at our age, like I think it

876
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: is hard to like admit these things that like you

877
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: think everybody else does, it can't bring about a lot

878
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: of shame. And so I think every time we take

879
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: the opportunity to throw the door open on this scary

880
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: secret thing, it lets a lot of other people in, right,

881
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate you being so open about

882
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: your experience.

883
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you know, people throw terms around like late

884
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: bloomer and it's like going in here, and so you

885
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: know it's blooming at some point. Like I said earlier,

886
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: we have our different reasons for why, and so a

887
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 3: lot of us are so quick to just feel so

888
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: weird about things, and so like you said, kind of

889
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: opening that door up. I'm hoping somebody listening to this

890
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: is like, you know what I can You know I

891
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: can do it for two just eight months in right?

892
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: So, where can people stay connected with your friend with

893
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 1: your website? Where can we listen to the friend Zone

894
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: tell us how to extend touch?

895
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm hey, Frian Hay across the board. Website

896
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 3: handles been the same for many years, and don't forget

897
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 3: to check us out on the friend Zone podcast, which

898
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: drops every Wednesday.

899
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm on there with my co hosts, Dustin Ross and

900
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 2: Assante and we drop every week.

901
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: We're nine years in so there's a lot to catch

902
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: up on if you're unfamiliar. And those who do listen, hey, y'all, yeah,

903
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 3: that's really it. That's where they can fire me.

904
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: Thank you, Fran. We will be sure to include all

905
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: of that in this show notes. Thank you for spending

906
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: time with me today.

907
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: Thank you talk to Joelcord pleasure.

908
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: It was such a pleasure hearing from Fran. Our candor

909
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: and vulnerability really helped cashurize and often overlooked experience for

910
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: city dwellers and even our younger generations. Even amongst the

911
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: TBG team, I learned there were dissenting attitudes around driving.

912
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: To get more context into what informed driving anxiety, I

913
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: want to just speak to a specialist entered doctor Jamika Moore.

914
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: Doctor Moore is a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in

915
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: treating anxiety disorders using evidence based treatment approaches. She treats

916
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: a range of anxiety and co occurring disorders with a

917
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: special interest in obsessive compulsive disorder phobia, is in social anxiety.

918
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: Today she gets in depth with me about the symptoms

919
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: and solutions for driving anxiety. Thank you so much for

920
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: joining us sector.

921
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 4: Moore, Hi, thank you, thank you for having me. I'm

922
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 4: so happy to be here.

923
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear a little bit more about

924
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: your practice. I know you work quite a bit with

925
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: treating anxiety concerns. Can you tell me more about your practice?

926
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 4: Yes, So, I specialize in treating OCD and anxiety disorders.

927
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 4: I really enjoy doing exposure work. Most of my clients

928
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: are presenting with an anxiety disorder, a lot of OCD,

929
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 4: a lot of phobias, social phobia is best what my

930
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 4: specialty is, and I really enjoy doing this work. I

931
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 4: love that.

932
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: I love that. So today we're going to be talking

933
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: primarily around like driving anxiety. So is this something that

934
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: you see pretty frequently in your practice?

935
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 4: You know, I will say OCD is primarily what I see.

936
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 4: But I do get my driving phobia clients in because

937
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 4: I do exposure work, and so people will come in

938
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 4: and we have to run a protocol for them because

939
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 4: they are experiencing anxiety on highways, a lot of avoidant behavior,

940
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 4: not wanting to actually drive, so getting a lot of

941
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 4: accommodation from family members and friends. I think that if

942
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 4: I've seen an increase over the last couple of years,

943
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 4: I don't think so, But I do think that it

944
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 4: seems to be that there are populations of people just

945
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 4: aren't driving as much, or they're delay in driving, Like

946
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 4: I'm just not getting their licenses when we did when

947
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 4: we were sixteen, we were excited to go. But I'm

948
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 4: noticing some delays in my college age students.

949
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: Really, Now, what would you attribute that to you? Because

950
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: you're right, like I do feel like there's always been

951
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: this excitement of like freedom is associated with kind of

952
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: having your own So maybe people don't need to Is

953
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: that what you would think?

954
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the technology definitely plays a role. I

955
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 4: think that depending on your school program as well. Some

956
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 4: people don't actually have driving education is part of their

957
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 4: core curriculum in high school, so parents might have to

958
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 4: finance that separately, which also might delay getting a license

959
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 4: because you just don't have it automatically built into your

960
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 4: academic program.

961
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: Got it Okay? Okay, So can you talk to me

962
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: about like some of the things behind the scenes that

963
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: really drive anxiety related to driving. What are some of

964
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: the kind of underlying thoughts.

965
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 4: Well, I think, first of all, what's happening is people

966
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 4: have a lot of catastrophic thoughts connected to driving, and

967
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 4: so if you imagine worst case scenario, you're going to

968
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 4: get an accident, you'll get injured, you will die. Those

969
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 4: really generate a lot of anxiety, and so you can

970
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 4: understand why people would avoid driving if that's what your

971
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 4: mind is telling you is going to happen. I also

972
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 4: think that sometimes people have anxiety modeled for them. If

973
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 4: you have a parent or family member who might have

974
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 4: had some driving issues and a lot of anxiety, you

975
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 4: might have saw that as a child and have come

976
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 4: to associate driving with anxiety because of how your parents

977
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 4: actually modeled that for you. So I think you can

978
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 4: see it in your thoughts. If you know other people

979
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 4: who've gotten it to car accident, that can also create

980
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 4: some anxiety for you. Even if you yourself have been

981
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: in an accident, you can have some trauma connected to

982
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 4: that as well, because you've experienced a situational issue that

983
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 4: has resulted in some anxiety.

984
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: I appreciate you offering that, doctor Moore, And I feel

985
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: like this is always the tricky part with like treating

986
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: anxiety is you know there is some rational thought this

987
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: is a serious vehicle, like you could cause damage to

988
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: yourself for other people if you're not like responsible. But

989
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 1: what is the line, right, Like, how do you help

990
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: clients differentiate what's a rational kind of like Okay, this

991
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: is responsible versus something that is more on the anxiety

992
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum.

993
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 4: I think that's a really great question. We do what's

994
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 4: called cognitive restructuring, and part of cognitive restructuring is helping

995
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 4: clients identify those thoughts. And a specific technique would be

996
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 4: identifying cognitive errors or distortions, because those are where we're

997
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 4: going to see a lot of the more exaggerated catastrophic thoughts.

998
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 4: Before I do any course of exposure work, I actually

999
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 4: start with psycho education on what is anxiety and really

1000
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 4: doing like a metacognitive process like thinking about thinking, so

1001
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 4: that clients can really understand how their thinking patterns will

1002
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 4: directly influence their mood and their actions. And so we

1003
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 4: do a thorough assessment of back first to be able

1004
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 4: to tell like, Okay, we want to have respect for driving,

1005
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 4: because you know other people on the road, and so

1006
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 4: there are some natural concerns that may arise, but typically

1007
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 4: when it gotting into the phobic zone, we're seeing some rigid,

1008
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 4: catastrophic thoughts that we want to challenge and help the

1009
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 4: clients create alternative thoughts.

1010
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: It's been some time since I took a driver's plaz

1011
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: I feel like maybe and I don't know if they

1012
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: incorporate this into education for drivers now, like helping to

1013
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: incorporate that mental health component.

1014
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 4: I think so too when I don't know that they

1015
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 4: do that as well, because typically it's not a problem

1016
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 4: until it's a problem, right, right, And so I think

1017
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 4: that handling some of that on the front end of

1018
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 4: like driving is scary. We want to validate your feelings,

1019
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 4: but we also want to help you avoid some traps

1020
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 4: that you may get into that can intensify anxiety symptoms

1021
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 4: for sure.

1022
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: M H.

1023
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: So you talked about doing a lot of exposure therapy

1024
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: with your clients, which is kind of like a subdomain

1025
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: I guess under CBT. Can you tell us a little

1026
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: bit more about like CBT and maybe specifically about exposure

1027
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: therapy as it is related to driving.

1028
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 4: Okay, So generally speaking, kind and new behavioral therapy really

1029
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 4: helps you examine your thoughts to understand how they influence

1030
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 4: mood and behavior. And so the scene really works on

1031
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 4: thinking and the B part is broy, you'll get your

1032
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 4: exposure therapy is how you want to make behavioral changes,

1033
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 4: and that could be anything from driving, social skills. Now,

1034
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 4: as it pertains to exposure, you can't treat phobias without

1035
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 4: exposure with therapy. It just doesn't work. And exposure with

1036
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 4: therapy is directly confronting whatever that fear is, if it's driving,

1037
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 4: if it's storms, and we create like a graduated plan

1038
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 4: in order to help client work on their own specific zone,

1039
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 4: because not all driving phobias would be created the same, right,

1040
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 4: Some people might be afraid of being a passenger in

1041
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: a car. Some people might be afraid of storms or

1042
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 4: highways or being in unfamiliar places, and so the plan

1043
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 4: is going to be specific to the individual and what

1044
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 4: they're actually struggling with. And we have steps, right like

1045
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,919
Speaker 4: these little steps that we take. So, for example, let's

1046
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 4: say someone just has a fear of driving in general.

1047
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 4: We may start with a parking lot where no one's there,

1048
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 4: and they may have an exposure buddy that will come

1049
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 4: along with them, maybe they help them get there so

1050
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 4: that they're free to practice in that specific parking lot.

1051
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 4: And then we may go to a busy residential street

1052
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 4: or not so busy residential street. Next we may gradually

1053
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 4: go to a busy or residential street, and then we

1054
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: can eventually work our way up to highways. And so

1055
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 4: it takes time, it takes a lot of patience, it

1056
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 4: takes a lot of compassion. But you see people grow

1057
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 4: in their confidence and that's something that's amazing to watch

1058
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 4: because they start off scinctious and then they get better

1059
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 4: over time. And the point I want to make about

1060
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 4: exposure therapy, this is not about anxiety reduction. Like I

1061
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 4: don't want my clients to think that they're going to

1062
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 4: come to treatment and never experience any anxiety connected to

1063
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 4: whatever the phobia is. This is about learning to manage

1064
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 4: your anxiety while doing the thing, if it's driving or

1065
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 4: conversation or test taking. Right. So some people will come

1066
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 4: in and they're like, I don't want anxiety, Like I

1067
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 4: just to them, treatment is I never feel any anxiety

1068
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 4: at all? And I'm like, well, I'm probably not signing

1069
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 4: that treatment plan because we need to learn how to

1070
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 4: manage this. We're capable of handling our emotions.

1071
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: You know, yeah you said that, because we know that,

1072
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: like some anxiety is good, right, Like some anxiety is

1073
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: what makes you focus so that you are understanding how

1074
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: to be responsible on the road, or it's what gets

1075
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: us all the couch when we know we need to

1076
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: be studying for test, right, But it is learning how

1077
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: to manage it and like, so that it doesn't take.

1078
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 4: Over in your life, right, Trying to get people to

1079
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 4: function in side of that optimum zone of anxiety. Now,

1080
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 4: when people are experiencing panic, which happens some people have

1081
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 4: panic attacks while they're driving, we do want to help

1082
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 4: them regulate to be able to bring that anxiety down

1083
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 4: to something that feels more manageable. But even still, there

1084
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 4: has to be a willingness to experience anxiety in order

1085
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 4: to get better. Like that's just how it goes.

1086
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I love to hear more about like what

1087
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: treatment looks like because you know, therapists who practice exposure

1088
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: therapy are not always in the office, right, Like we

1089
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: are not practicing kind of a parallel park in your office, right,

1090
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: And so what does that look like? There's some kind

1091
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: of additional insurance you have because if you're in the

1092
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: client talk to me through all of those things.

1093
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 4: Yes, so you definitely can do that kind of NBG

1094
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: work directly hands on with your clients where you may

1095
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 4: be in the car, and you definitely want to make

1096
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 4: sure your insurance is on point with that because you

1097
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 4: know you have to keep yourself covered and protected. And

1098
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 4: so yeah, some therapists won't meet clients in the wild.

1099
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:19,720
Speaker 2: If you will.

1100
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 4: Some will do assistance over the phone before they're getting

1101
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 4: into the exposure. But I will see a lot of

1102
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 4: my client's exposure work is independent. When it comes to driving,

1103
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 4: we work through a plan. They know exactly what the

1104
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 4: homework assignment is, and then they go do it on

1105
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 4: their own. Because with the exposure work, what you want

1106
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 4: is repetition and you want this to be happening frequently,

1107
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 4: Like anything that you want to learn, you can't practice

1108
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 4: in September and not pick it up again until January.

1109
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 4: So they should be doing like exposures three five times

1110
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 4: a week. And so because of that, it will be

1111
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 4: hard for a therapist to assist with all of that.

1112
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 4: And that's where exposure buddies come into place, someone who

1113
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 4: can assist and be there to help at least in

1114
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 4: those initial phases of treatment. However, I would fade out

1115
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 4: an exposure buddy over time, because otherwise they become a

1116
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 4: safety behavior like a safety person oh crutch that someone

1117
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 4: uses which could maintain the phobia. And so yeah, people

1118
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 4: make decisions, some outside of the office training, some coaching

1119
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 4: prior to sessions, but a lot of independent work.

1120
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: Got it okay. And so you know, I wonder if

1121
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: you could walk us through maybe like what a sample

1122
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: treatment plan would be for somebody who maybe is anxious

1123
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: about driving on the highway right, like anxious about merging

1124
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: and getting off the exit or getting onto an exit.

1125
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through one of those?

1126
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 4: Yes, So I would initially start with just that assessment

1127
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 4: of understanding what that specific phobia is in order to

1128
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 4: create that plan for it. Then we do a course

1129
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 4: of anxiety psycho education, right, like helping people understand what

1130
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 4: is anxiety, highlighting the specific symptoms, how anxiety is maintained.

1131
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 4: And then we go to the cognitive part, right, I

1132
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 4: want to teach some cognitive strategies so that they can

1133
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 4: look at those thoughts that increase the anxiety and maintain

1134
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 4: the anxiety. And then we go into the exposure plan.

1135
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,919
Speaker 4: And so with the highway driver, I would even start

1136
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 4: with regular driving, right, so like specifically, what is it

1137
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 4: about the highway? Is it merging? Is it faster speed?

1138
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: So we would start practicing some of those smaller exposures

1139
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 4: first so that they can get to a highway and say, okay,

1140
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 4: we need help merging. Let's find an area in your

1141
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 4: town where you have to merge and they do that repetitively,

1142
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 4: and okay, if this high speed, let's find an area

1143
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 4: in town where you have to account for these high speeds.

1144
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 4: And then eventually we work our way up to a

1145
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 4: highway that might not be as scary, you know, like

1146
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 4: something or something that mimics the highway, and then they'll

1147
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 4: practice that, and then we would work our way up

1148
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 4: to like the big Dog, which would be the highway

1149
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 4: and initially again a therapy buddy what a them, and

1150
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 4: then through that repetition, eventually they'll do it.

1151
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: So lo, do you have any contact with the exposure buddy.

1152
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 4: Absolutely, because a lot of phobias are maintained through accommodation

1153
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 4: from family members and friends and they're think they're helping.

1154
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 4: You know, I'll always drive, I'm gonna take over. Don't

1155
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 4: worry about it. You don't have to drive, and the

1156
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 4: phobia is like, yes, I get to stick around because

1157
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 4: this person is accommodating this. In order to stop that accommodation,

1158
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 4: I like to meet with the exposure buddy so that

1159
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 4: we can say thank you. I know you love them,

1160
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: But now we're gonna start fading out this support that

1161
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 4: you've been given and we're gonna support in other ways.

1162
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 4: And also like this is the plan, you're going to

1163
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 4: attend on this exposure, but by exposure seven or depending

1164
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 4: on where the client is, we're gonna fade you out

1165
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 4: and you can again support in different way.

1166
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. Have you heard

1167
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: the news Therapy from Black Girls is launching our community

1168
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: on page. It's your space to be seen, heard and

1169
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: understood in an even more connected way. We're exciting to

1170
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: bring you new segments like so my therapist said, where

1171
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: we break down viral therapy, hot takes with real mental

1172
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: health professionals, TBG community chats where we unpack trending pop

1173
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: culture topics that have us all in our feelings, and

1174
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: opportunities to connect with other sisters all over the world.

1175
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: Sign up now at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash

1176
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: join Patreon for all the details about what we're planning

1177
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: and to be the first to know when the doors

1178
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: are open. We can't wait to see you inside. So

1179
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: let's talk more about the support system. So you've already

1180
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: talked about like maybe they could be an exposure buddy,

1181
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: but also need to be mindful that they are not

1182
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: doing too much accommodating so that the person never challenges themselves.

1183
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: What other things would you say to your family and

1184
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: friends around how to support a friend or a loved

1185
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: one who maybe having some anxiety about driving.

1186
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like to say meet people where they are.

1187
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 4: I think we forget a simple question to just say

1188
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 4: how can I support you?

1189
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: Right?

1190
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: Are there phrases that you want me to say or

1191
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 4: things that you don't want me to say, because people

1192
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 4: get triggered a lot when their anxiety is high, and

1193
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 4: sometimes someone will say the wrong thing that they think

1194
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 4: is supportive and it's not. So here are safe words.

1195
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 4: Here a words of encouragement that you will you know,

1196
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 4: be happy to hear during these moments. And here's our

1197
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 4: steer clear list where you don't want me to say

1198
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 4: these things to you. That's it reminding them of the skills,

1199
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 4: like sometimes it's help or say I know you've been

1200
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 4: working hard and you got this. Just remember your skills.

1201
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 4: You know you can get through it.

1202
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: Again.

1203
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 4: Some people might not like that, but some people might

1204
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 4: find that to be really grounding, like right, I am

1205
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 4: working on this. I do have skills and just being

1206
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,439
Speaker 4: positive and encouraging people can overcome phobias. And I think

1207
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 4: like life can get in the way sometimes too, and

1208
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 4: so you're trying to learn how to feel more comfortable

1209
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 4: on the road you have life hitting you, and I

1210
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 4: think sometimes just having someone say you know you got

1211
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 4: this and you can you can get through this. I

1212
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 4: see you working hard, you know, just stay the course

1213
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 4: could be very helpful.

1214
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned something and I hadn't thought about this,

1215
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: but it does make sense because I also am anxious

1216
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: about driving in the rain or like you know, when

1217
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: there's a big storm. But you also talked about like

1218
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: the need for repetition, and we know there's not like

1219
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: necessarily a storm all the time. What does the treatment

1220
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: plan look like when it is something that you're anxious about,

1221
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: like a storm that you can't necessarily predict for.

1222
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 4: We can look for Okay, what is it about the storm?

1223
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 4: Is it that it's dark? Is it you know, we

1224
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 4: can try to recreate some of those situations because ultimately,

1225
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 4: remember this is about anxiety management. At the end of

1226
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 4: the day, people are really responding to the fact that

1227
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 4: they're anxious and they're making negative predictions about what can happen.

1228
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 4: So we don't necessarily need a storm in order to

1229
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 4: work on that part. All we need is anxiety and

1230
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 4: the ability to do some cognitive restructuring and reframing, and

1231
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 4: then when that storm hits, it's like, Okay, this is

1232
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 4: gold time. For some people. It's even the possibility that

1233
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 4: a storm might happen right again making predictions, and so

1234
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 4: that's why the cognitive restructuring part is helpful too, because

1235
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 4: it'll help them address the thoughts that maintain and contribute

1236
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 4: to the anxiety even in the absence of the specific

1237
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 4: stressor got it.

1238
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering how manageable are the steps because

1239
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: it feels like there's a lot of things that I'm

1240
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: thinking about, and I'm also like wanting to be focused.

1241
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: On the road.

1242
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: So talk to me about how are people practicing this.

1243
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: How much happens before you even get in the car

1244
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: versus what you're doing in real time.

1245
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot's going to happen before you get in

1246
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 4: the car. And so when I said I start with

1247
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 4: that course of doing some cognitive work first, that's a

1248
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,919
Speaker 4: lot of session that will go into that. So that's

1249
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 4: just not like a one session thing. This is repetition

1250
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 4: so that they can learn alternative ways of thinking. Like

1251
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 4: those negative thoughts so have to one hundred percent disappear,

1252
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 4: and sometimes they won't because they're pretty well conditioned and

1253
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 4: they're automatic. So what we want are healthier thoughts or

1254
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 4: more reason both thoughts to sit alongside both, and eventually,

1255
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 4: through the repetition of doing the cognitive restructuring and practicing

1256
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 4: those alternative thoughts, you can get some shift to where like, Okay,

1257
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 4: this is my primary way of thinking about this, and

1258
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 4: those catastrophic thoughts can still be there, but I may

1259
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 4: no longer engage them anymore. I don't get hooked on

1260
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 4: them anymore. I realize that I can have a more

1261
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 4: balanced thoughts. So in order for us to have that

1262
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 4: way of thinking become a new way of thinking, we

1263
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 4: have to have practice. And so that course of treatment

1264
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 4: is its own little lame And that's definitely happening before

1265
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 4: someone gets in the car, because if you tried, you could.

1266
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a big proponent of behavioral treatment. You

1267
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 4: can try to skip that stuff and get straight in

1268
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 4: the car. But my clients we are driving phobia said

1269
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,479
Speaker 4: they really appreciated the cognitive work first because it helped

1270
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 4: them feel more grounded and they could catch themselves beyond

1271
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 4: like every time I drove them going to die. And

1272
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 4: then they're like, okay, and that might not be true.

1273
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 4: I say that to myself, and I'm realizing it's not true.

1274
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 4: And even that can help alleviate some of the anxiety

1275
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 4: that they aren't activating themselves as much anymore by hooking

1276
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 4: on negative automatic thoughts.

1277
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: So you mentioned, you know, one of the underlying concerns

1278
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: related to driving anxiety sometimes is that there has been

1279
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: a previous accident, right, or maybe they were driving or

1280
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: were in the car with someone else. Is there the

1281
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: same like cognitive restructuring work that's done with somebody who's

1282
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: had like a previous accident, or does it look differently

1283
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: same thing?

1284
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:29,959
Speaker 3: Right?

1285
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 4: They have evidence now to support that driving can be

1286
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 4: scary because they've been in an accident. But the predictions

1287
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 4: that they're making artist saying it's going to happen again. Right,

1288
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 4: They're over generalizing because it happens once, now it's always

1289
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 4: going to happen. We still want to work with those

1290
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 4: thoughts even if someone has had a car accident, but

1291
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 4: we do want to be respectful of the fact that

1292
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 4: they have had that experience and maybe it coded as

1293
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 4: a trauma, maybe it didn't. But we want to tell

1294
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 4: our clients even if you've had negative experiences, it doesn't

1295
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 4: mean that the treatment doesn't work for you or that

1296
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 4: you're going to be necessarily different than someone who hasn't

1297
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 4: had those experiences. There's help and there's a relief for

1298
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 4: those clients as well.

1299
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: Are there relaxation or other mindfulness kinds of techniques that

1300
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: you pair with some of the cognitive stuff to help

1301
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: the clients manage the anxiety.

1302
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 4: Yes, there's mindfulness and relaxation techniques. I think that's specifically

1303
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 4: useful for clients who maybe have panic disorder presenting with

1304
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 4: their driving phobia, because they're having panic attacks and so

1305
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 4: there has to be some way to work through that

1306
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 4: panic attack to alleviate those symptoms. But I kind of

1307
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 4: take a different approach with relaxation and mindfulness exercise it

1308
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 4: when it comes to phobias, because I take the approach

1309
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 4: that we need to confront and manage the anxiety. Sometimes

1310
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 4: if you make clients think that they have to always

1311
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 4: be in some sort of like yoga breathing, I think

1312
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 4: that does a disservice to the clients because it conditions

1313
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 4: this idea that they need to have no or low anxiety.

1314
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 4: I take the approach that it's okay if the anxiety

1315
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 4: is they're we're learning to live with anxiety versus constantly

1316
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 4: needed to be in this state where it's low. And

1317
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 4: the reason why if that breathing doesn't work, client wil

1318
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 4: panic there are symptoms will go up because they're like

1319
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 4: I expected this to work. I'm breathing for in for

1320
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 4: out and it's not working that and I'm like, okay,

1321
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 4: but that's again, if you're making symptom reduction the only

1322
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 4: point of the treatment, you do a disservice to clients.

1323
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 4: I think, big picture, yes, we want symptom reduction, but

1324
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 4: if we're telling clients that they have to have nowhere

1325
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 4: low anxiety, that's not a long term strategy because there

1326
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 4: is no anxiety free life. And so I'd rather them

1327
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 4: expected to show up and be like, Okay, I can

1328
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 4: drive and be anxious, I can talk and be anxious,

1329
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 4: and then once they adopt that mindset of willingness and acceptance,

1330
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 4: that also helps them get to more symptom reduction because

1331
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 4: you're learning how to live with anxiety versus that expectation

1332
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 4: that it has to go way.

1333
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: So I wonder if you can talk more about some

1334
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: of the setbacks that you see people have when they're

1335
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: working through the treatment plan. It feels like you've come

1336
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: back to this one multiple times, this idea that there

1337
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: needs to be no anxiety right, and like having to

1338
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 1: kind of reroute them. Are there other things that you

1339
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: have found that show up that you need to help

1340
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: clients think through.

1341
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 4: The commitment to do exposure people have so many things

1342
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 4: going on in their life that they'll just be like,

1343
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 4: work went late, Sorry, I didn't do my exposure work

1344
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 4: this week. This happened, I didn't get a chance to

1345
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 4: do exposure work. So it's that buy in. So the

1346
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 4: treatment in and of itself is like, if you're going

1347
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 4: to choose to do exposure therapy, you have to kind

1348
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 4: of be accountable for yourself to make sure that you

1349
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 4: are actually going to be able to get the treatment done.

1350
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 4: And so scheduling like having people put it in their

1351
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 4: calendar is if it's a work meeting that you cannot

1352
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,919
Speaker 4: miss because if you're not doing exposure, you're not doing

1353
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 4: exposure and it you know, then you're in treatment and

1354
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 4: you're like, well it's not working. Well, it's not working

1355
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 4: because you aren't doing that compone, and then it just

1356
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 4: continues to feed into that cycle of avoidance. Sometimes people

1357
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 4: don't do the exposure homework because they actually just want

1358
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 4: to avoid it. They want to get better, but it's here,

1359
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 4: it work, and so trying to rectify those two things

1360
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 4: and constantly doing accountability checks.

1361
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 1: Is there anybody you would say is not a good

1362
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: candidate for exposure work?

1363
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 4: I would say in part of my assessment, I wouldn't

1364
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 4: look for deficits to see is this more pure anxiety

1365
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 4: with some fear around driving, or do you need to

1366
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 4: actually get some skills first before you, you know, are

1367
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 4: starting this course of treatment, right, Because if you do

1368
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 4: legitimately have some deficits, I would recommend a driving course first,

1369
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 4: just to be able to like get those skills up.

1370
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 4: I wouldn't feel super confident doing exposure therapy for someone

1371
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 4: who's in my office saying, while also I just don't

1372
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 4: know how to drive because the skill wouldn't work well.

1373
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 2: You know, you make it.

1374
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: You bring up an interesting point because I think that

1375
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 1: that is also really to other skill based anxieties, right,

1376
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking about like public speaking, or you know,

1377
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: like sometimes our anxiety is fueled because we don't know enough, right,

1378
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: are there are these other work that we need to

1379
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: do beyond like the therapy office that can help to

1380
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: maybe reduce our anxiety. Yeah.

1381
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Like if you are, it's always identified the deficits.

1382
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 4: Even if like let's say someone's driving and we're doing

1383
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 4: an assessment and they're like, I don't like driving at night.

1384
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 4: It's scared of me. One thing I want to cross

1385
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 4: check first, how's your vision? Do you need to make

1386
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 4: a doctor's appointment first to make sure your vision is

1387
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 4: on point and you're actually not having blurt vision while

1388
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 4: you're driving, And then that's enhancing the anxiety. And so

1389
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 4: it's always looking for deficits, looking for medical conditions first,

1390
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 4: so we can roll that out and feel more confident

1391
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 4: in moving forward with the treatment plan.

1392
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: Is there anything related to the work that you do

1393
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: with driving? For me, is that you think is important

1394
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 1: to cover.

1395
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 4: Biggest points learning how to live with the anxiety and

1396
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 4: not coming to therapy thinking that your anxiety is one

1397
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 4: hundred percent disappear. Because you don't need your anxiety to

1398
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 4: one hundred percent disappear in order to be able to drive,

1399
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 4: you can learn how to work with it. I think

1400
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 4: that's would be one of the biggest takeaways.

1401
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: From this perfect Well, this has been incredibly helpful, Doctor Wore,

1402
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Can you tell us where can

1403
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: we stay connected with you? What is your website as

1404
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: well as any social media channels you'd like to share.

1405
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 4: My website is doctor Jamika Moore dot com and you

1406
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 4: can find me on Instagram at jam Session. That's jam

1407
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 4: Underscore s SSI n D perfect.

1408
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.

1409
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Doctor Moore.

1410
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1411
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: Between friends, anecdoto accounts, and doctor Moore's professional analysis, there

1412
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: were so many gems and how anxiety informed so much

1413
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: of how we engage with the world. I'm so happy

1414
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,759
Speaker 1: they were both able to join us and really drive

1415
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,520
Speaker 1: home pun intended the message of how to overcome your anxiety.

1416
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 1: So learn more about friend and doctor Moore. Be sure

1417
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot

1418
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: com slash Session four oh seven, and don't forget to

1419
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: text two of your girls right now and tell them

1420
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: to check out the episode.

1421
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 2: Did you know?

1422
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 1: You can leave us a voicemail with your questions for

1423
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 1: the podcast. If you want to suggest movies or books

1424
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: for us to review, or even give thoughts around topics

1425
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at

1426
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 1: Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let

1427
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: us know what's on your mind. We just might feature

1428
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 1: it on a future episode. If you're looking for a

1429
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy

1430
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced

1431
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 1: by Elise Ellis Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

1432
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

1433
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,440
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

1434
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,