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Speaker 1: Hey, there are folks. It is Saturday, December twentieth, just

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Speaker 1: five days to go before Christmas, and this is not

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Speaker 1: the episode we plan to record and post today. But

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Speaker 1: we changed things up when we took a look under

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Speaker 1: the Christmas trees and said to ourselves, that is way

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Speaker 1: too much stuff. And with that, welcome to this episode

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Speaker 1: of Amy and TJ Robes.

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Speaker 2: We.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people go overboard, certainly last minute, late and go

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Speaker 1: crazy at the holidays, and sometimes that's okay, but particularly

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Speaker 1: you and I got into a conversation about this. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just that we go too far. We started

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Speaker 1: to examine why, even subconsciously, we bought so much stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I started asking myself and really asking myself to

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Speaker 2: reflect honestly, why the why behind? There are way too

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Speaker 2: much any way, too many gifts under the Christmas tree?

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Speaker 2: And I said, am I purchasing gifts out of guilt?

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Speaker 2: Guilt of the last couple of years that have been

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Speaker 2: pretty tough on our kids? No question, they have been

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Speaker 2: through a lot, and so am I subconsciously trying to

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Speaker 2: make up for it by giving them more than they

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Speaker 2: actually need?

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Speaker 1: And what do you think your answer is to that?

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Speaker 1: Do you believe because okay, you go.

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Speaker 3: I think that there is something to that. I do

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Speaker 3: think that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing it consciously and I'm not doing it deliberately,

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Speaker 2: like I'm going to make sure that they feel good

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Speaker 2: and here's how I'm going to do it. But I

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Speaker 2: did look at as I was wrapping these gifts, thinking

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Speaker 2: this is this is this is too much? And then

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Speaker 2: I started to ask myself why. I do love giving

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Speaker 2: and I do love buying, and I do love this season,

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Speaker 2: but this feels like the last two years.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've bought more than I normally have.

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Speaker 1: Really, I wonder because your focus has been different as well,

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Speaker 1: your circle smaller, your gift list right got small, the

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Speaker 1: number of people on that list got smaller. That could

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Speaker 1: have something to do with it, to just focus too much.

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Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, and I was going back

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Speaker 1: and forth with you, and I don't know if I'm

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Speaker 1: guilty of it as well, but I know it's something

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Speaker 1: that I have had to keep in check, Like I

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Speaker 1: am very very conscious of going overboard and going too far,

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Speaker 1: and I think I still do with that little one

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Speaker 1: with Sabine, because you do, in some way feel responsible

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Speaker 1: for any upheaval, or even the fact that they are

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Speaker 1: not under one roof with their two parents for.

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Speaker 2: Christmas, exactly knowing they have to go back and forth.

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Speaker 2: My girls spent their entire lives doing that. Analyse is nineteen.

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Speaker 2: She does not have a memory of having a Christmas

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Speaker 2: with both parents and having a Christmas where she didn't have.

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Speaker 3: To feel like she was being juggled, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Now that they're older, where they want to go, it

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Speaker 2: actually feels funny enough. Now it feels settled. Their dad's

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Speaker 2: in another state, and it's just not as possible as

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Speaker 2: it used to be to try and manage having everyone

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Speaker 2: get to have equal time or at least sometimes.

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Speaker 3: So that has gone away.

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Speaker 2: But I do think about what they have not been

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Speaker 2: able to experience.

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Speaker 1: But this is a thing, I mean, obviously it is.

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Speaker 1: I guess I haven't paid that closely as far as studies.

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Speaker 1: I haven't had really conversations with anybody else about it.

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Speaker 1: But everything we've done in the past several years having

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Speaker 1: to do with the kids, we have to keep in

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Speaker 1: check to No, I can't just say yes to that

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Speaker 1: because I want to be nice and I want them

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Speaker 1: to like me and want to make up for something

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Speaker 1: that I feel responsible for, and that's tough no matter what.

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Speaker 1: That's tough to get over, even if you know it

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Speaker 1: good and hell well you're not responsible or solely responsible

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Speaker 1: for any that was, still you can't help it as

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Speaker 1: a parent, oh.

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Speaker 3: Man, And look, I have tried.

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Speaker 2: I firmly believe that any decision you make period out

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Speaker 2: of guilt is probably not a correct one because it's

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Speaker 2: not reasoned rationally, and I don't think it necessarily. It

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Speaker 2: can sometimes even do more harm than good. It looks

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Speaker 2: like you're buying someone's love or buying someone's affection, or

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Speaker 2: it feels transactional or that you owe somebody. It takes

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Speaker 2: away from the spirit of giving a gift and receiving

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Speaker 2: a gift, and even certainly the spirit of the holidays.

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Speaker 2: So I'm very aware of that, and I've always tried

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Speaker 2: to be aware of it from the beginning, but but

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Speaker 2: I have noticed. I think I kept it in check

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Speaker 2: for most of their childhoods, But these last couple of years,

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Speaker 2: I absolutely think I.

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Speaker 3: Have been more.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say, lenient and more giving than

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Speaker 2: I have in the past. And I do appreciate the

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Speaker 2: fact that you said maybe it's because is your circle smaller.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's because you've been able to actually focus more

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Speaker 2: on your kids. I don't have a job sending me

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Speaker 2: around the world and jumping on planes twice a week,

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Speaker 2: and I have been able just to be with them,

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Speaker 2: and that has felt indulgent and fun and awesome, and

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Speaker 2: our relationships have gotten significantly better, there's no question.

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Speaker 3: But I always do want to check myself.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, No, I get what you're saying. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to not check you and be as hard on

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Speaker 1: you as you were kind of on yourself earlier. I

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Speaker 1: don't know road we it is. I'm I'm struggling with

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Speaker 1: this because I am love looking at at the gifts

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Speaker 1: and what's under the trees. Yeah, two trees.

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Speaker 2: They're small trees, the equivalent of one big tree. Maybe

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Speaker 2: that's what's throwing me, because we have two trees and

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Speaker 2: two little areas of presents like that is a lot

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Speaker 2: of presence.

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Speaker 1: But it's only that way because it's a whole story

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Speaker 1: behind that. We always have to get a real tree,

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Speaker 1: and then we happened to have it was our first Christmas,

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Speaker 1: the five of us, at least altogether last year, we

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Speaker 1: ordered this tree. On Amazon, this white tree with these

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Speaker 1: lights on it that sparkle, and it was a wonderful

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Speaker 1: Christmas and we kept it and it's now a part

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Speaker 1: of our Christmas tradition. There's no way that tree wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to go up, and we had to get a

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Speaker 1: real one. So that's why we had the two. We

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Speaker 1: didn't get two trees because we needed more space.

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Speaker 2: Pause.

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Speaker 1: We had to make that clear.

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Speaker 2: And like I said, I also think that maybe visually

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Speaker 2: the two trees is throwing me. And because they're smaller trees,

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Speaker 2: there's not as much room under the tree, so it

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Speaker 2: looks like they're piled up on top.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe we shouldn't have done this episode. It's

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Speaker 1: just weird being fooled by it's an illusion.

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Speaker 3: No, that's not now. I'm just trying to make excuses.

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Speaker 2: And I had to wrap for three hours yesterday and

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Speaker 2: say I still have a lot more wrapping to go.

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Speaker 3: That's insane.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious with other people. Yes, I always try to

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Speaker 2: set a budget. I did have a list. I was

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Speaker 2: keeping dollar amounts next to it so that I had

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Speaker 2: an idea of what our budget is and how much.

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Speaker 2: But what happens is you go Black Friday shopping, you

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Speaker 2: go Cyber Monday shopping, you say, oh, look at this. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and then I see something that all three girls would like,

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Speaker 2: and then I get a gift for all and all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden it starts adding up beyond what they

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Speaker 2: had even asked for in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's happened. That's actually happened quite a bit. On

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Speaker 1: some fairly price the items. It's almost like you can't

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Speaker 1: get it for just one of them anymore.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's the other thing. Yes, they're all opening it

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Speaker 3: up together.

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Speaker 2: They're all three girls, they all like the same basically.

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Speaker 3: So then I'm like, well, I can't just get one,

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Speaker 3: I have to get three.

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Speaker 2: And so I've been doing a lot of threefold gifts

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Speaker 2: that maybe also like, that's a lot of wrapping.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot of wrapping.

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Speaker 1: What does one do a part of it? That is

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Speaker 1: what is how it reveals itself in some ways by

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Speaker 1: buying too many gifts, that's where the guilt shows up.

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Speaker 1: But what is the thing you feel most guilty about

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Speaker 1: in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Yes, robbing them of an experience, robby, I see, I

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Speaker 2: know these are triggering words, but you know, being responsible,

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Speaker 2: knowing you're responsible for having them, and I hate the

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Speaker 2: word normal, but feeling responsible for them not having what

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Speaker 2: you would consider and maybe what you and I had

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Speaker 2: growing up, which was a nuclear family, mom, dad, brothers, sister.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't complex, it wasn't confusing. It felt safe,

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Speaker 2: it felt secure, it was structured. And our kids' lives

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Speaker 2: have had anything about that.

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Speaker 1: That's where I am, like, I struggle and difficult saying

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Speaker 1: it out loud that that thing I wish Sabine had

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Speaker 1: that I do. I wish that could have been the case.

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Speaker 1: And I keep saying like that's like that was my

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Speaker 1: preference for her life, but it wasn't the best thing

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Speaker 1: for her.

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Speaker 3: I know that because it wasn't the best thing for

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Speaker 3: your life.

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Speaker 1: This and it seemed to get over that and to

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Speaker 1: seem it seems selfish to make a decision for yourself

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Speaker 1: that impacts other people. But it's tough sometimes to remember,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked to plenty of therapists about these things,

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Speaker 1: to remember that the best thing for the child was

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Speaker 1: to not see her parents in that house together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, I think I've said this before, but a therapist

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Speaker 2: said this to me and this landed and I've always

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Speaker 2: used this is is this the marriage you want for

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Speaker 2: your child? And if it's not, can you do something

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Speaker 2: about it? Or do you need to make sure they

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Speaker 2: have an example of what an actual loving relationship looks like.

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Speaker 2: And if you can answer that honestly, then that leads

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Speaker 2: you in the right direction. That's what my therapist told me.

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Speaker 2: Would you want your daughters to be in the marriage

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Speaker 2: that they are witnessing every day?

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Speaker 3: And there was a very clear answer for me.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult. I know for a lot of parents are

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Speaker 1: dealing with us around the holl And I think the

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Speaker 1: numbers will tell you. I think it's a third of

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Speaker 1: kids in this country we'll go through their parents' divorce

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Speaker 1: before they hit adulthood. That's a lot of kids. And

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of Christmases. And one of the most

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Speaker 1: difficult parts that I've experienced in recent years Robes, is

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Speaker 1: any idea of having to split the holiday. I would

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Speaker 1: almost prefer to being just stay with her mom than

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Speaker 1: to have to go half and half on a holiday.

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Speaker 2: That's very self less of you, because most people don't

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Speaker 2: feel that way.

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Speaker 1: That's not a good I just that idea being split

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Speaker 1: into two, or being obligator in some way if she

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Speaker 1: just if she says she wants to go there, says

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Speaker 1: she wants to come here. That's fine, and she's old

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Speaker 1: enough she can decide. But I hate the idea of splitting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we did that. Was it last year? We had

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Speaker 1: to do it.

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Speaker 2: You drove on Christmas Day after we opened presents and

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Speaker 2: I think we had lunch together in like mid afternoon.

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Speaker 2: We had rented a house, and you drove her back

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Speaker 2: into the city so she could spend the last half

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Speaker 2: of Christmas with her mom.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so it is don't like that?

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Speaker 3: Yep, like that.

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Speaker 2: I spent years and years and years doing that as well.

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Speaker 2: And yes, it's hard on me the parent, but it's

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Speaker 2: even harder on the kids.

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Speaker 3: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: Even Analysa was saying we were talking about Sabine and

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Speaker 2: she said, oh, I I lived every single Christmas like that.

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Speaker 3: I totally get it.

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Speaker 2: It's not fun, but I do think it's it is

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Speaker 2: cool that they can lean on each other because at

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Speaker 2: least the older girls have been there, done that, and

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Speaker 2: Sabine's going through it and there's at least some I

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Speaker 2: guess there is a commiseration there is a recognition and

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Speaker 2: you do you feel seen?

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Speaker 3: You're not alone? Right?

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Speaker 2: They kind of feel like we can help guide her

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Speaker 2: because this has been our life.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's things have settled, things are great now. Let's

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Speaker 1: they can make decisions about where she wants to go

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Speaker 1: and can speak up and that's yeah. There's no negotiation

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Speaker 1: or anything that has to take place, and that's fine.

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Speaker 1: But I would always elect. I would tell her right,

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Speaker 1: I don't want her to feel guilty about Oh. I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure. I don't want to feel bad

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Speaker 1: for this parent or that parent. If she prefers to

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Speaker 1: stay at one spot, I would prefer her to not

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Speaker 1: see her on Christmas than to have her have to

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Speaker 1: do that. I say, have to. If she chooses to,

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Speaker 1: that's fine, but to have to do it and figuring

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Speaker 1: out schedules and what time is this dinner and what

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Speaker 1: time the gifts of being opened, I don't. I really

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Speaker 1: don't like that.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's so interesting what you just said. You

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Speaker 2: said you don't want some being to feel guilty. And

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Speaker 2: it's funny. My mom used to always say to me,

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Speaker 2: guilt is a wasted emotion. Please don't ever feel guilty,

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Speaker 2: And yet it's the guilt that we're talking that we

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Speaker 2: have that we're trying to find a way through and

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Speaker 2: out of. But that's what you don't want for your kids.

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Speaker 2: You don't want your kids pulled or feeling guilty. So

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Speaker 2: then maybe that is part of the reason why, through

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Speaker 2: our own guilt we might overspend.

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Speaker 1: And there are some that suggests we'll just talking about

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Speaker 1: the guilt part of it. One way to do away

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Speaker 1: with the splitting at least this suggestion that the families,

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Speaker 1: even of divorce, spend the Christmas together like you spend

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Speaker 1: it with y X in the house, just for the

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Speaker 1: sake of the kids. When you think about that.

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Speaker 2: Idea, look, you know what, when it works, I think

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Speaker 2: it's awesome. The biggest example I just was reading about

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Speaker 2: this is actually Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner. They spend

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Speaker 2: holidays together. Are other there's another famous couple out there

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Speaker 2: who said they vacation together.

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Speaker 3: That is impressive. That My hat is off to you.

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Speaker 2: If you can stomach that and you can be not

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Speaker 2: just cordial but actually enjoy yourself around your ex for

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Speaker 2: your kids, that's incredible.

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Speaker 3: It's just never been possible.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Look, I have had now enough years with Avan Anda's

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Speaker 2: dad where Yes, graduations, you've been in the apartment. He

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Speaker 2: comes with his wife and his children, and we're all

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Speaker 2: in the same house. And it's but that took years

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Speaker 2: to get.

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Speaker 3: To that place, but we are there now one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: Still weird.

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Speaker 3: Still, it's weird for me, and I think initially it

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Speaker 3: was weird for the girls.

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Speaker 2: But I know that it makes them feel very happy

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Speaker 2: to see us all in the same place.

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Speaker 3: Getting along.

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Speaker 1: That's it. That's the key. I will show up wherever

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Speaker 1: they tell me. I need to show up and get

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Speaker 1: along with who I need to get along with. Yes,

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Speaker 1: some limits there, I will say, but that's generally what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. Now. We are back and forth on

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Speaker 1: this idea of guilt and overgiving of gifts because of

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Speaker 1: a feeling of guilt. But stay here, Rolles says, tracked

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Speaker 1: down what might be a pretty good plan to stick

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Speaker 1: to of only giving five particular gifts. Trust me, folks,

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Speaker 1: you want to hear this one. Stay here and welcome back, folks.

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Speaker 1: We'll continue here on Amy and TJ. Rooves. I thought

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Speaker 1: this was interesting, this idea. I'm not sure where you

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Speaker 1: find it. You can explain, But we struggle with what

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Speaker 1: gift to give, what kind and trying to think of

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Speaker 1: all these things. This kind of helps.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was under a list of healthy alternatives to

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Speaker 2: guilt based gifts. I was googling divorce parents guilt buying

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Speaker 2: Christmas gifts, and so they said use the five gift role.

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Speaker 3: This was so powerful to me.

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Speaker 2: I actually would love to try this next year, the

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Speaker 2: five gift role. So you buy something they want, something

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Speaker 2: they need, something they wear, something they read, and an experience.

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Speaker 2: I think that's really really cool. You can set your

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Speaker 2: own limit on how much you want to spend whatever

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Speaker 2: that is. But those that I really like the idea

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Speaker 2: of it. Just thinking about having that be the guidepost.

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Speaker 2: I actually feel my shoulders drop because there is so

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Speaker 2: much pressure to make sure that you get them everything

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Speaker 2: they want. You get them things they weren't expecting. You

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Speaker 2: wow them on Christmas morning. And I don't feel this

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Speaker 2: way necessarily now, but I know a lot of folks do.

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Speaker 2: They are in competition with their ex because what are

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Speaker 2: they getting from the other parent, and so you feel

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Speaker 2: like you have to there's a one upsmanship that goes on.

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Speaker 2: So they were saying some red flo flags of guilt giving,

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Speaker 2: lavish spending. So if you find yourself spending more than

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Speaker 2: you should, more than you can afford, and trying to

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Speaker 2: buy more expensive gifts than the other parent, red flag manipulation.

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Speaker 2: And I have seen this using gift to control behavior

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Speaker 2: or to alienate the other parent.

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Speaker 3: Basically, you can only play with that at my house.

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Speaker 2: Oh I have seen this happen, babe. You can only

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Speaker 2: wear this at our house. You cannot bring that with

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Speaker 2: you to their house. And that is that you need

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Speaker 2: to examine why, because that is not good for the kid.

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Speaker 2: And I have absolutely watched that happen and it's heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: The other the unhealthy competition. You're turning the holidays into

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Speaker 2: a contest with your ex and people do this, so

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Speaker 2: you have to like really be honest with yourself and

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Speaker 2: ask the whys. And really, the manipulation part, it sounds

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Speaker 2: so offensive, and yet I think it's incredibly common, very

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Speaker 2: much so, and you might not even realize you're doing

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Speaker 2: but you're doing it, and the kids know.

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Speaker 3: The kids No, But I really like this five gift rule.

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Speaker 1: Do you I'll go ahead, Oh no, go ahead, Well

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you after you have put this.

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Speaker 1: You see the five is this how you went about

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Speaker 1: it with the girls. Did you get them both something

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Speaker 1: they want? I know that's yes. To get them both

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Speaker 1: something they need, I know that's a yes. Something they wear? Sure,

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Speaker 1: read an experience? Did you give those.

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Speaker 2: Uh, let me see, I don't believe funny enough that

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Speaker 2: five gift rule.

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Speaker 3: I have totally done for.

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Speaker 2: You, like absolutely, I check check, check check. I have

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Speaker 2: almost always gotten them an experience, but I did not

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Speaker 2: this time. This might be one of the first Christmases

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Speaker 2: I did not. Well, you know what, if you count

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Speaker 2: the vacation we're going on, that's an experience. They're all

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Speaker 2: getting a pretty all getting an experience. So yes, we

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Speaker 2: are doing that. We are giving them an experience, and

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Speaker 2: that is absolutely a Christmas present.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, I didn't get them read something

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Speaker 3: to read.

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Speaker 1: That seems odd. We always get them something to read.

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Speaker 2: I know. I feel like I wrap up books a lot,

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Speaker 2: but somehow I did not for them.

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Speaker 1: We can rectify this, we will, okay.

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Speaker 2: But I like this, and I think this keeps things

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Speaker 2: really simple and really.

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Speaker 3: Manageable.

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Speaker 2: And if they know, that's what you get, because I've

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Speaker 2: even said to them, I'm like, guys, this is it

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Speaker 2: takes three hours to open Christmas gifts in the morning

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Speaker 2: it's out of control.

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Speaker 1: And then another two hours of clean all deck crap.

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Speaker 3: That's so true.

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Speaker 2: I gotta get like two trash bags for all the

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Speaker 2: wrapping paper for the hours we spent rapp And.

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Speaker 1: You're the I think you're the ridiculous one that even

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Speaker 1: before we start open and stuff, it's like three trash

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Speaker 1: bags strategically placed around the living room.

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Speaker 3: I was already It's so funny you just said that.

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Speaker 3: I was already imagining me and Christmas morning.

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Speaker 2: I get trash bags next to it like every other

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Speaker 2: person like, and I'll make sure you put in the dress. Also,

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Speaker 2: the reason why I do that is I don't want

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Speaker 2: gifts to get thrown away. That happens all the time

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Speaker 2: when all the wrapping papers everywhere, and then someone comes

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Speaker 2: in and scoops it all up and somehow someone's gift

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Speaker 2: got thrown out. So I just figure if the wrapping

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Speaker 2: paper immediately goes into the trash bag, you avoid that.

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Speaker 1: That only happens when you buy too many damn guilt gifts. Well, folks,

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Speaker 1: hope you're I mean, yeah, we got days left here,

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Speaker 1: but this was I don't know. We had to stop

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Speaker 1: and kind of check ourselves. And we were having a

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Speaker 1: conversation and we thought, wow, I've got a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people are dealing with this as well, if they realize

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Speaker 1: it or not, are doing this And maybe we didn't

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Speaker 1: at times this year last year, but we're all human, bit.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and we can all learn from our mistakes.

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Speaker 2: And I do think that it's only through making them

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Speaker 2: that you realize. Wait, I think I need to correct

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Speaker 2: something right now, and I need to acknowledge something about

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Speaker 2: myself right now. And once man, when you can get

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Speaker 2: rid of guilt, when you can shed yourself of that

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Speaker 2: and say, you know what, My kids are resilient, My

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Speaker 2: kids are strong. My kids are smart and brave and

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Speaker 2: they have been through a lot, but that's going to

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Speaker 2: make them stronger emotionally more stable individuals. And so that's

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Speaker 2: where I'm going to land this year.

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Speaker 1: Well, folks, hope you are having a good holiday so far,

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Speaker 1: and we'll continue. Good luck weekend last weekend before Christmas

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Speaker 1: South there again. Don't spend too much and don't spend

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Speaker 1: out of guilt, folks, We always appreciate you spending some

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Speaker 1: time with us. I'm TJ. Holmes by half of my

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Speaker 1: Dreamy Robot, we'll talk to us