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Speaker 1: I'm terrified of the centralization and counterparty risk represented by

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Speaker 1: large custodians like coinbase and others that are in the

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Speaker 1: marketplace today. Folks like us, who are somewhat more public

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Speaker 1: about being in bitcoin, we have a much different risk

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Speaker 1: profile than someone who quietly and privately hold bitcoin that

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Speaker 1: nobody knows about. And we're making bitcoin as an ecosystem

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Speaker 1: which stending its reach. We're making it more powerful. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: we're helping it defend its value proposition against the approaching

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Speaker 1: centralization now in Ino, the.

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Speaker 2: Future between twenty thirty to twenty forty is where bitcoin

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Speaker 2: sort of hits that medium of exchange phase, and I

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Speaker 2: think it'll be primarily driven by AI agents.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting to see what effect AI and bitcoin

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Speaker 1: will have on each other as they kind of co evolve.

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Speaker 1: I thought we were just trying to build money, but

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Speaker 1: we're building this very complicated time ordering global clock.

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Speaker 2: Or someone who's listened to this, I still think bitcoin

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Speaker 2: is just digital gold, or even more useless than digital gold.

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Speaker 2: What would you say to them, Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a.

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Speaker 2: Every once in a while someone comes along to bitcoin

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Speaker 2: who doesn't just reframe it, but they make a completely

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Speaker 2: new world out of it. That's who I'm talking to today.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to Drew Bonsol. He is the co founder

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Speaker 2: of Unchained Capital, one of the leading bitcoin security companies

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Speaker 2: in the space, and we're going to go deep. We're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about bitcoin markets, how it literally not

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Speaker 2: just fixes everything but changes everything, what the world looks like.

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Speaker 2: On the other side, we're going to talk about quantum

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Speaker 2: computing security, how to custody and secure bitcoin, the potential

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Speaker 2: problems with coinbase, and so much more. You don't want

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Speaker 2: to miss it. Let's jump right in with Drew. Drew,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining me today. I'm excited to

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Speaker 2: dig in here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's just jump right into the deep end here, Drew.

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Speaker 2: You've said that bitcoin disrupts everything, which we talk about

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Speaker 2: that it fixes everything, disrupts everything. It's a big claim.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think is the single most misunderstood

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Speaker 2: way that people really underestimate the real impact that bitcoin

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Speaker 2: could make or will make.

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Speaker 1: It's a hard question to give a succinct answer to,

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Speaker 1: but I will try. I think bitcoin is money. I

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Speaker 1: always start from that, and because bitcoin is money, people

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Speaker 1: want to acquire it. That's a pretty simple statement. I

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Speaker 1: think what's me be underappreciated is there's different ways you

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Speaker 1: can acquire things for bitcoin. You can kind of trade

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Speaker 1: bitcoin for them in a coffee, our standard example, or

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Speaker 1: you can kind of trade for them in a more

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Speaker 1: let's say, computational way, right, Like there's a transaction or

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Speaker 1: there's some piece of code that is executing and somehow

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Speaker 1: that represents the trade. And I'm not gonna say that

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Speaker 1: one or these is a better or worse way to

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Speaker 1: interact with bitcoin. It is money. You can kind of

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Speaker 1: trade it for what you want. But I think people

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Speaker 1: underestimate sometimes the programmability of bitcoin and what that second

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Speaker 1: mode of trade might look like. Right, So we're excited

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Speaker 1: to talk about lightning, and again we talk about lightning

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Speaker 1: being used to buy coffees, but maybe we don't talk

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Speaker 1: as much about how lightning could be used to buy packets,

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Speaker 1: or to structure the topology of a communications network, or

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Speaker 1: to exchange information online and perhaps even attention. And I

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Speaker 1: think things like that are underestimated. They're not. It's hard

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Speaker 1: for me to predict whether we'll buy and sell coffees first,

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Speaker 1: or whether we'll buy and sell tweets and thoughts and

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Speaker 1: ideas first. I think it depends on which is harder

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Speaker 1: to do and which is more valuable. I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: we think that, of course, the most natural thing for

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Speaker 1: bitcoin to do is to help us engage a circular

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Speaker 1: economies and buy the coffees and buy the things in

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Speaker 1: our local area. Maybe that's true. That requires a lot

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Speaker 1: of density of people that want to engage in that behavior,

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Speaker 1: all in one place, interacting with each other to kind

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Speaker 1: of build those markets. Whereas I think part of what's

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Speaker 1: so cool about bitcoin, the global peer to peer marketplace

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Speaker 1: that already exists, is that oftentimes you're trading with strangers

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Speaker 1: all over the Internet, and so potentially the thing that

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Speaker 1: we would want to trade first is the thing that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't buy without bitcoin, and that might

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Speaker 1: be something like an unsensorable communications channel or some other

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Speaker 1: kind of more technological cryptographic thing that you're trading for bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: I think bitcoin is because we're skeptical and we're conservative,

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Speaker 1: have maybe seeded some territory in this area, and there's

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Speaker 1: a general consensus amongst investors and so forth that somehow

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Speaker 1: bitcoin is money. With things like ethereum and Solana and

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Speaker 1: whatever are the technologies that we will use to build

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Speaker 1: these more distributed, decentralized peer to peer type marketplaces. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure if you ask chat GBT, that's the common wisdom

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Speaker 1: that'll kind of reflect back at you. But actually think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of room there for bitcoin to make

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Speaker 1: an impact. And that doesn't mean that necessarily, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're putting the Internet on bitcoin, or that the blockchain

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Speaker 1: contains the website or anything as literal as that. It

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Speaker 1: just means that bitcoin's really powerful money, and people can

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Speaker 1: be incentivized to build powerful, you know, capable networks because

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Speaker 1: they want to earn that money. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: on us to be clever and solve that problem and

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Speaker 1: figure out a way to get the kinds of markets

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Speaker 1: we want to build operating on bitcoin without kind of

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Speaker 1: ruining bitcoin, right, So it's a balancing game. It's really hard.

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Speaker 2: When I think about, like going back through history and

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Speaker 2: looking at these different technological pivot events, these technological revolution

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Speaker 2: events that we've had. It's like two things. Like number one,

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Speaker 2: when we get a new technology gives us a new

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Speaker 2: set of building blocks to build things that we couldn't

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Speaker 2: have imagined because we didn't have the building blocks to

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Speaker 2: build them. One. Number two, because our brains are compared

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Speaker 2: haring mechanisms. We try to understand them by comparing them

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Speaker 2: to things that we have, which maybe is like the

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Speaker 2: first killer app that something might have, like electricity, the

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Speaker 2: killer app was a light bulb, or the internet. The

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Speaker 2: killer app was kind of like email. Doesn't mean that's

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Speaker 2: all they are, but there's like a killer app. But

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Speaker 2: then what we know about that word, the very definition

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Speaker 2: of that word can change. So then, for example, like

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Speaker 2: what we used as light change and the way that

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Speaker 2: we think about light changed, or information pre Internet was

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Speaker 2: like nightly news and newspaper, and now information's like on

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Speaker 2: a picture some kid posted about the beach and bali

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Speaker 2: and I know the weather and the water temperature and

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Speaker 2: all the waves and all that, right, And so I

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Speaker 2: guess when we think about money, and like bitcoin, we

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Speaker 2: think about like the killer app. So the killer app

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Speaker 2: certainly is money right now. But I think maybe what

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Speaker 2: you were saying, or maybe it's just my own bias

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Speaker 2: was hearing, but maybe the very different definition of what

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Speaker 2: we think of as money or the way that we

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Speaker 2: use money could just change completely.

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Speaker 1: There's so many cool related ideas there. I think the

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Speaker 1: first thing that you said reminded me of like an

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Speaker 1: idea that I really like due to Stuart Kaufman, which

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Speaker 1: is this phrase the adjacent possible right that like, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict what's going to happen when you add an

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Speaker 1: element to the set, because the adjacent possible set of

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Speaker 1: combinations just became exponentially larger. So you know, he's often

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Speaker 1: i think, pioneering that idea on the context of let's say,

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Speaker 1: the evolution of life or metabolism. It's hard to predict

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Speaker 1: what new chemicals you can form if you add one

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Speaker 1: more reagent to the you know, the swimming pool of life,

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Speaker 1: because chemistry is so rich and there's so many combinations.

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Speaker 1: And similarly, I think there's ways to analogize that in

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Speaker 1: our context here. If you build a new kind of

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Speaker 1: market that sells a new kind of good, you've now

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Speaker 1: created a whole bunch of interconnections between that market and

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Speaker 1: all the other existing markets that existed there, and there's

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Speaker 1: a new and richer adjacent possible of things that you

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Speaker 1: might not have anticipated that you were even solving. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is money, and money connects everything, and

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Speaker 1: again this comes back to my prior point about what

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Speaker 1: we think we might want to use bitcoin for might

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Speaker 1: not be the very first things that really bitcoin scales.

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Speaker 1: I think you kind of see this even in the

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Speaker 1: conception of bitcoin, you know, over the first ten or

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Speaker 1: fifteen years of its life, right that this notion of

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Speaker 1: is bitcoin a peer to peer electronic cache that we

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Speaker 1: want to have high transaction volumes in because we're constantly

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Speaker 1: buying stuff in it, or is bitcoin this store of value,

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Speaker 1: ultrasound money that is very hard to seize and as

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Speaker 1: censorship resistant. I feel like that second narrative has won

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Speaker 1: out to a degree, I think partly dictated by the

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Speaker 1: actual capabilities of the technology and what bitcoin excels aversus,

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Speaker 1: what Bitcoin finds difficult, But we may surprise ourselves and

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Speaker 1: that new things come online that suddenly become killer apps.

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Speaker 1: Right for bitcoin today, I definitely agree that the killer

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Speaker 1: app for bitcoin is self sovereign, you know, inflation resistant,

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Speaker 1: seizureship resistant money, and as a form of savings. But

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Speaker 1: people want to earn bitcoin, and if we offer them

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Speaker 1: bitcoin to do things for us, they might do those things,

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Speaker 1: including storing data for us, or transmitting data for us,

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Speaker 1: or selling us energy or all sorts of other things

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Speaker 1: which aren't necessarily where we start it when we first

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Speaker 1: said peer to peer electronic cash, but it might turn

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Speaker 1: out to be the things that are most valuable and

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Speaker 1: therefore the things that collectively we're most willing to pay

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Speaker 1: bitcoin for, and therefore the things that get built ahead

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Speaker 1: of other things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's a phrase that I'm trying to coin that I

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Speaker 1: think is really interesting called like the beautiful surprise, which

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Speaker 1: is just the idea that when you start out to

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Speaker 1: solve a problem, you may not realize that you actually

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Speaker 1: have a very different kind of problem to solve ahead

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Speaker 1: of you. But it's kind of an example of this

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Speaker 1: kind of pattern I think for bitcoin at the lowest layer,

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Speaker 1: I think the beautiful surprise is related to time.

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Speaker 2: It's a beautiful surprise if it's a good surprise. Otherwise

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Speaker 2: it's a lot of unintended consequences.

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Speaker 1: It's yes, yeah, yeah, But maybe that's the flip side, right,

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Speaker 1: The flip side of the law of onintended consequences is

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Speaker 1: the idea of the beautiful surprise, Right that, like, just

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Speaker 1: as there are things that go wrong or you don't expect,

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Speaker 1: there are some beautiful problems you wind up having to solve.

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Speaker 1: So again, for bitcoin, at at the lowest layer, I

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Speaker 1: think it's the notion of timekeeping and how do we

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Speaker 1: collectively in an adversarial, peer to peer context without a

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Speaker 1: central coordinator order things in time? And the answer like,

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Speaker 1: that's a very hard problem, and we're I thought we

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Speaker 1: were just trying to build money, but we're building this

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Speaker 1: very complicated time ordering global clock. That's fascinating. Then I

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Speaker 1: think at layer one, you know, when we're talking about transactions,

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Speaker 1: like we're just trying to build a payment network just

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Speaker 1: to exchange bitcoin with each other, but we wind up

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Speaker 1: having to implement an entire virtual machine and a programming language,

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Speaker 1: and then we argue about what's considered in scope or

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Speaker 1: out of scope or consensus in this very complex setting.

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Speaker 1: I thought we were just trying to exchange money. How

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Speaker 1: do we get here? I think as we move forward

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Speaker 1: and we try to build new things with bitcoin, there'll

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Speaker 1: be new, beautiful surprises, and I think we're already starting

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Speaker 1: to see one right. Lightning, for example, is just one

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Speaker 1: example of the many layer two ideas that are out

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Speaker 1: there with new things that we can build with bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: Is ostensibly, again a micropayments network that we can make fast, cheap, scalable,

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Speaker 1: payments with it. But it's remarkable to me that so

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Speaker 1: much of the discourse and the challenge of lightning is

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Speaker 1: actually figuring out how to build a topology, how to

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Speaker 1: connect all the lightning users together, and to route payments

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Speaker 1: through that network. So in some sense, again we're building

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Speaker 1: a payments network where we're actually building some sort of

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Speaker 1: weird proto internet. That's another beautiful surprise. So again to me,

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Speaker 1: it's like, in order to all this problem, you get

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Speaker 1: to solve this other problem you didn't expect, and that's

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Speaker 1: just happening through the natural dynamics of markets and incentives.

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Speaker 2: And then when you build that thing, what else can

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Speaker 2: it be used for? So with bitcoin, we know that

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Speaker 2: it's the most secure network in the history of the world.

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Speaker 2: So what else could we do with a secure network? Well,

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Speaker 2: probably all kinds of things for example, right, Like with steel,

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Speaker 2: like we were just trying to come up with like

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Speaker 2: a harder metal, and we didn't know that we'd like

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Speaker 2: build skyscrapers or maybe spaceships one day, Right, So it's

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Speaker 2: like what else can we do with those things? And

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Speaker 2: then also like can we combine a whole bunch of things? Right,

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Speaker 2: So it's like maybe we don't need gold and silver

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Speaker 2: and checks and credit cards and wire transfers, like why

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Speaker 2: can't all beat together? Right for example. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of things that we just don't know, but it's

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Speaker 2: certainly fascinating to think about it. But we have something

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Speaker 2: very valuable. We're not exactly sure what it means, but

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Speaker 2: we can start to see some of those things. And

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Speaker 2: so the killer app being payments, And you mentioned that

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Speaker 2: because it's so valuable, then the incentive level is very

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Speaker 2: high for people to want to get more of it,

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Speaker 2: so then to build on it, to work on it,

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Speaker 2: build companies around it, et cetera, which then has created

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Speaker 2: a problem. Well, bitcoin solved the problem and it created

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Speaker 2: a problem at the same time. I think about building

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Speaker 2: wealth as in solving problems, and the bigger the problem

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Speaker 2: you solve for the more people, the more value you create.

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Speaker 2: You create personal computers for everyone on earth, like Bill Gates,

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Speaker 2: you'll be worth a lot of money. And maybe the

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Speaker 2: oldest problem in mankind has faced with is how do

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Speaker 2: I secure my property and away from being stolen like

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Speaker 2: you're gonna get you know, you're gonna steal my chicken.

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Speaker 2: So my neighbor and I perform together. Then it's a

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Speaker 2: village or a city, or a kingdom or a country.

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Speaker 2: And so we've created something very valuable and we're solving

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Speaker 2: a problem of how do we secure something? But then

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Speaker 2: we have the struggle of that right of like how

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Speaker 2: do we secure the bitcoin? And so I know you've

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Speaker 2: built you know, maybe one of the world's top bitcoin

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Speaker 2: custody firms, How does how do you think about securing

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Speaker 2: this asset? Now? Maybe from an individual, business or institutional level,

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Speaker 2: every day we see headlines about inflation and dead and

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Speaker 2: diminishing control over our own money. That's why I always

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Speaker 2: come back to bitcoin because it's built for generations, it's

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Speaker 2: built for legacy. But protecting your bitcoin legacy the right

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Speaker 2: way is not always simple. It demands discipline, focus, and

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Speaker 2: the right partner. Now, that's why I personally use Unchained Signature.

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Speaker 2: It's a premium private client service for serious bitcoin holders

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Speaker 2: who want expert guidance, resilient custody, and an enduring partnership.

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Speaker 2: Now Signature, you're paired with your own dedicated account manager,

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Speaker 2: someone who understands your goals helps you every step of

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Speaker 2: the way. You're going to get white glove onboarding, same

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Speaker 2: day emergency support, personalized education, reduce trading fees, and priority

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Speaker 2: access to exclusive events and features. Unchained collaborative custody model

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Speaker 2: is designed to provide the same security as the world's

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Speaker 2: biggest bitcoin custodians, but for those who prefer to hold

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Speaker 2: their own keys. Now. I've been using and recommending unchained

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Speaker 2: for years.

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Speaker 1: I even got my.

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Speaker 2: Parents to set up with them. So if you want

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Speaker 2: to get set up, check out unchained signature at unchained

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Speaker 2: dot com, slash mark Moss, and as a loyal listener,

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Speaker 2: I got a discount for you. Just use code Moss

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Speaker 2: ten at checkout to get ten percent off your first year.

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Speaker 2: Because your bitcoin isn't just for life, it's for generations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's again. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that's so remarkable about bitcoin is that it's custody

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Speaker 1: model relies on cryptography, and it relies on us, as

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Speaker 1: users and holders of bitcoin, to participate in our own custody.

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Speaker 1: This is, in some sense a very old school model

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Speaker 1: of what wealth should look and feel like, right that

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Speaker 1: it's something that you have to spend resources to try

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Speaker 1: to protect yourself, and that if you fail in that endeavor,

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Speaker 1: it can be taken from you. It can be stolen,

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Speaker 1: and there's very little recourse to kind of come back to.

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Speaker 1: I think centralization of banking or other infrastructure is so

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Speaker 1: attractive on some level because it takes away that burden

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Speaker 1: of responsibility from us. Of course a cost, there's a

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Speaker 1: price to that, right. We lose a lot of freedom,

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Speaker 1: We lose a lot of control over our wealth. Our

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Speaker 1: interests are not necessarily aligned with the centralized service providers

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Speaker 1: who seek to solve these problems for us. They get

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Speaker 1: more interested in how they can use our money, for example,

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Speaker 1: to make money for themselves, rather than how they can

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Speaker 1: protect us better, how they can enrich us, like more

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Speaker 1: and more quickly. So Bitcoin offers us that capability of like, well,

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Speaker 1: we get to protect ourselves. And then of course that,

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Speaker 1: as you say, creates a problem. Right. Well, okay, now

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Speaker 1: that you can do this, how are you going to

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Speaker 1: make sure you don't screw it up?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Because there's a whole host of ways, as we all

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Speaker 1: know as bitcoiners, of screwing that process up. For me, early,

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Speaker 1: very early on in the history of unchained, before we

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Speaker 1: really thought of ourselves as a custody company, we really

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Speaker 1: started on the financial services side, we wanted to offer

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Speaker 1: credit to bitcoin owners because we thought that that was

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Speaker 1: a major missing component of you know, if bitcoin is money,

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Speaker 1: you should be able to do the things that you

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Speaker 1: do with money, and including borrowing and lending, and that

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Speaker 1: was difficult in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen when we were

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Speaker 1: getting started, and so we started, you know, with our

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Speaker 1: lending product, you can you know, post bitcoin as collateral

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Speaker 1: and you could obtain US dollars as a loan. Of course,

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Speaker 1: custody is very integral to that process. We want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the collateral is kept safe, both for

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Speaker 1: the concerns of the creditors who are lending us money

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Speaker 1: to lend to our borrowers, but also of course for

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Speaker 1: the borrowers themselves to get that collateral back. The whole reason,

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Speaker 1: of course that they're borrowing is because they don't want

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Speaker 1: to sell their bitcoin, right, So it's very important to

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Speaker 1: preserve that collateral throughout the lifetime of the loan and beyond.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting when we started the business, I had this presumption,

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Speaker 1: I guess that why would anybody ever trust us with

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Speaker 1: their bitcoin in a financial product like this, In a

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Speaker 1: loan structure like this, we would have to be really

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Speaker 1: bent over backwards, really far to try to prove to

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Speaker 1: our clients and our borrowers that, for example, we weren't

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Speaker 1: read pothecating their collateral.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We would give everybody a fixed address on the blockchain.

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Speaker 1: We would say, your collateral just lives in this one address,

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Speaker 1: and look, you can monitor it, because bitcoin is an

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Speaker 1: open network that we can all access. And that's a

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Speaker 1: lot better than the kind of protection you might get

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Speaker 1: if you had a different financial asset that at a

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Speaker 1: more traditional custodial model applied to it, that you are

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Speaker 1: borrowing against. What surprised me to a degree was in

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Speaker 1: that era, perhaps how few people actually seem to care

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Speaker 1: about that privilege or that capability that so many people

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Speaker 1: were maybe conditioned by the traditional fiat system or whatever,

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Speaker 1: like more interested in, Hey, but I want a lower rate,

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Speaker 1: and in order to get that lower rate, I'm more

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Speaker 1: than willing to surrender control over my collateral. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: then the problem sort of flips over and says, well,

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Speaker 1: even if I'm not borrowing dollars for some expenditure, I

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Speaker 1: have bitcoin, I had, in fact would rather give up

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Speaker 1: control over my bitcoin and earn yield on this right

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Speaker 1: and so there is this notion of to access five

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Speaker 1: seven ten percent yield, I'm willing to put at custodial

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Speaker 1: risk this asset that was growing at you know, one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent a year. So it's interesting how sometimes, you know,

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Speaker 1: we create the problem and then we sort of it

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Speaker 1: creates the solution again in this case of letting somebody

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Speaker 1: else then hold the bitcoin, which then of course creates

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Speaker 1: the problem again, which is we have counterparty risk and

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Speaker 1: stuff that we were trying to flee from, perhaps with

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Speaker 1: the advent of bitcoin in the first place. Unchained solution

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Speaker 1: of this kind of problem, of course is collaboration. And

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Speaker 1: I think that kind of comes back to what you

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Speaker 1: were describing as like sort of the origin of humanity

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Speaker 1: and society and the notion of building wealth as this

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Speaker 1: collaborative construct. I think there's some great economics line, right,

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Speaker 1: like the value of diamonds and water, right, are very

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Speaker 1: different to like kind of a thirsty man in the

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Speaker 1: desert versus you know, a person in the city and

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Speaker 1: comfort in their home. Right. In some sense, wealth is

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Speaker 1: always context dependent, and I think bitcoin definitely teaches us this. Right.

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Speaker 1: We have things like Bitcoin's test net, and we have

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Speaker 1: things like bitcoin cash, which you know in most ways

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Speaker 1: are exactly like bitcoin. It's sort of hard unless you're

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Speaker 1: maybe well versed in the details here to convince yourself

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Speaker 1: why bitcoin cash should not be valuable and why bitcoin

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Speaker 1: test net coins, you know, should not be valuable, whereas Bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: which again works pretty much the same way, should be

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Speaker 1: very valuable. Right. It's an admission that the context in

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Speaker 1: the marketplace, right, the opinion of all the other holders,

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Speaker 1: is part of what makes the currency valuable in the

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Speaker 1: first place. So there's already this sense in which bitcoin

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Speaker 1: as a social construct or as I think a humans

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Speaker 1: believe in, is part of what endows it with value

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Speaker 1: in the first place. And of course it's designed to

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Speaker 1: deserve that value and that respect. It's a good form

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Speaker 1: of money, whether people recognize it necessarily or not to

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Speaker 1: begin with. And that's of course ongoing process of bitcoin's

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Speaker 1: monetization is more and more people coming to that realization, right,

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Speaker 1: watching programs like this and the light bulb going off

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Speaker 1: again for them. But Unchain really likes to bring that

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Speaker 1: notion of collaboration right into the custody, right, So you know,

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Speaker 1: part of the reason we keep our homes safe and

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Speaker 1: we keep our other valuable safe is because we're not

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Speaker 1: always necessarily just relying on ourselves. We're part of communities,

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Speaker 1: we're part of tribes, we're part of you know, family households,

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Speaker 1: and we rely on each other to create security, and

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Speaker 1: so we try to do that unchained as well. Bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is not just money, is programmabable money, and so we

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Speaker 1: don't have to have just one private key. We can

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Speaker 1: have multiple private keys. We can use multi sig, we

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Speaker 1: can use multi party multi sig, which is what collaborative

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Speaker 1: custody really is, sharing the burden of protecting bitcoin amongst

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Speaker 1: different parties that have different in capabilities and are economically

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Speaker 1: aligned to deliver on the goal. So in the case

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Speaker 1: of unchained lending product, unchained our lenders, our borrowers, we

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Speaker 1: all have the same incentive, which is to keep the

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Speaker 1: bitcoin safe, and by spreading the keys out in that model,

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Speaker 1: we're able to all separately achieve that objective, and if

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Speaker 1: one of us should fail, the others can pick up

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Speaker 1: the slack. That same idea we now apply just to

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Speaker 1: custody without the lending context. So if you just want

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Speaker 1: to keep your bitcoin safe generationally, maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: best ways to do it is to rely on unchained

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Speaker 1: or other people and entities that you know in collaboration

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Speaker 1: to help you keep your bitcoin safe over time. It's

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Speaker 1: an interesting kind of like no Man is an Island

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Speaker 1: picture of what of where security ultimately comes from. It

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Speaker 1: comes from not just yourself and your capabilities, but those

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Speaker 1: of the people that you choose to trust. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's a pretty powerful way to ensure the bitcoin

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Speaker 1: survives generationally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that framing and it makes me think.

433
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 2: You know, back in the pandemic days five years ago

434
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 2: or so, a lot of people thought they could just

435
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 2: go disappear, be a man on a man on a

436
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,159
Speaker 2: hill by himself or whatever. But it's like, no, that

437
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 2: your security is not very good if you're out there

438
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 2: on your own, right, you're better off together in a

439
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 2: tribe of village. I recently built this house down in Mexico,

440
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 2: and it's kind of out of town out on this beach,

441
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 2: and years ago there was a lot of problems with

442
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: break ins and stuff like that happening. But now that

443
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 2: there's like enough houses that are kind of getting built

444
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,719
Speaker 2: out there, some of the neighbors are kind of watching.

445
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 2: Now there's really no crime out there, right, and so

446
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 2: it's the power of sort of having more people there

447
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 2: collaboratively working together.

448
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 1: I did similar ones many years ago. I bought a

449
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 1: place in Colorado and I kind of built out a

450
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,639
Speaker 1: small shed and then smaller house out there. And one

451
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 1: of the things I learned kind of being a city boy,

452
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: is when you move to the country, so to speak,

453
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 1: probably the first thing you want to do is you

454
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: want to make friends with your neighbors. Is you're going

455
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: to need them in a way that you maybe don't

456
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: need them as much when you're living in a city

457
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,639
Speaker 1: and you have this assumption of all these services and

458
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: so forth. Right, So, yeah, totally agree with with that

459
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: framing that ultimately security comes from other people, it comes

460
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: from context, and if you really want to do it yourself,

461
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 1: like you're kind of that mountain man, the burden is

462
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: really on you. A cost of doing it successfully is

463
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 1: on you as well as the risk, and that's hard

464
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: for most people to bear on their own.

465
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: So, after working on this for so long, what would

466
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 2: you say for an individual wanting to secure their bitcoin,

467
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 2: wanting to take that responsibility on themselves, what do you

468
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 2: think leads to the biggest mistakes trying to secure my

469
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: bitcoin is that me not spending enough time to understand

470
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: what I'm doing and build us robust enough system, or

471
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 2: is it trying to build something too robust that's too complex?

472
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 2: Like where's the danger? What should how should an individual

473
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 2: wanted to secure their bitcoin think about that?

474
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great way to frame it. And I

475
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: think both are our issues. You know. I think if

476
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 1: you're if you're technologically or like maybe not so savvy,

477
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 1: you're not a computer or programming type person, or if

478
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: you're just new to bitcoin perhaps even I think it's

479
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: really easy to underestimate the threat landscape, right, And we

480
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 1: constantly hear this where people will claim things like, oh,

481
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: I was using a hardware wallet and I thought that

482
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: would be safe, but then my coins were still and

483
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, how did that happen? Was there

484
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 1: some firmware bug with Ledger or Treasure or something, And

485
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: of course it comes out no, no, no, this person

486
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: just didn't understand the security model, and they took their

487
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: twenty four words, which are their analog back up, and

488
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: they put them into Google drug yeah, or they put

489
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: them into some other tool that ultimately was compromised. And

490
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: I think, again, people may not realize these aren't random

491
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: twenty four words Like the twenty four words are chosen

492
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: from a very short list of just a few thousand words.

493
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 1: It's very easy to write computer programs which look for

494
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: contiguous sets of words which come from this list. And

495
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: it's very easy therefore to flag and even a huge

496
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: volume of data, the tiny subset of information which might

497
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: represent Bitcoin private keys. And then of course it's trivial,

498
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: given bitcoin private keys, to quickly scan the blockchain and

499
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: determine there is indeed a balance associated with those, and

500
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: as soon as that's determined, the funds were already gone

501
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 1: two way wow. And so if you don't have this

502
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: picture of it's not just random words, it's actually very

503
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: easy for computer to tell that this is a private key,

504
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: even if it looks like random words to you, the human,

505
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: you might make that mistake. And I think to your point,

506
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: the converse is that you've learned all these things, you

507
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: start getting really paranoid, you start getting very clever, right,

508
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: And of course the greatest enemy sometimes of a person's

509
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: attempt to keep themselves safe is themselves. Right, you lock

510
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: yourself out of the system that you've built. You are

511
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: so paranoid about backups, or analog backups or sharding or

512
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: some other technique that you have decided you want to

513
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: rely on that you just forget something over time, and

514
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: you didn't rely on social key recovery. There's no heart

515
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: analog way that you've built to get back into that,

516
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: and you've lost yourself. You've lost your own coins. This

517
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: is something that I think, paradoxically has happened to a

518
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: lot of bitcoin developers and OG's in the space, partly

519
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: because maybe they got their bitcoin so early that there

520
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: weren't established solutions and best practices, and so they thought

521
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: they were clever and they sort of came up with

522
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: a Rube Goldberg machine and it locked them out, or worse,

523
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: it destroys their bitcoin. Finding that balance is really really hard,

524
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: because you do need to think like a programmer. You

525
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: need to be aware of, of course, the cryptographic context

526
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: and all the rules and little details, but you kind

527
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: of also got to think like a psychologist perhaps or psychiatrists,

528
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: or you got to think like a financial planner. Right,

529
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: You've got to be aware of the fact that no

530
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: matter how good you are at it, one day you

531
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: might not be around right, you may pass and then

532
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: you have this really complicated Rube Goldberg machine that your

533
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: poor spouse has to inherit and navigate somehow, and is

534
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: that going to be successful?

535
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: Right?

536
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: Like, how can you project you or custodial security past

537
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: your own mortal lifetime. That's a very challenging problem. Again, Historically,

538
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: the solution has been just let some financial institutions solve

539
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: that problem for you, right documents, paper, in person interviews,

540
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: they'll figure it out, they'll move the funds. But of

541
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: course that control is impossible in bitcoins unless you surrender. Again,

542
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: collaboration is a great way to kind of split the

543
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: difference and decide how much responsibility you want to bear

544
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: for yourself, for your heirs, how much you want to

545
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: delegate out to an institution like unchained or to other parties.

546
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: And because ultimately, I think everyone's contexted someone different, the

547
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: fact that this is somewhat tunable, that you can make

548
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: choices in this process, choosing the number of keys, choosing

549
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: the participants that should be protecting you, choosing the vendors

550
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: like unchained or others that you want to work with.

551
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: It helps you tailor your stance based on the actual

552
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: right environment that you're in. I think truthfully folks like

553
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: us who are somewhat more public about being in bitcoin

554
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: and stuff. We have a much different risk profile than

555
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: someone who quietly and privately holds bitcoin that nobody knows about.

556
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: And we may want to evaluate different strategies, and we

557
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: might want to spend more or different amounts on protections

558
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: and mitigations just because again, our circumstances differ. But what's

559
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: so cool about bitcoin and the emerging you know landscape

560
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: of firms like unchained and others, is that that's possible.

561
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 2: Now, what about for like institutions? So right now we

562
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: see it appears that coinbase appears to be like the

563
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: custodial solution for the institutional bitcoin you know everything for

564
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: the bitcoin treasury companies to ETFs, et cetera, maybe the

565
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: biggest honey pot out there. Is it different for an

566
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: institution where like they can't just do their own multi

567
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,479
Speaker 2: sig or collaborative custody because they're so big and so,

568
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: and then there's also maybe something in the regulations that

569
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: make them use a custodial partner. So is there something

570
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: different where at some point it gets past the point

571
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: of doing that collaborative custody I needed to trust a custodian,

572
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: it's number one and then number two. Do you think

573
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: that centralization creates potentially an even bigger attack factor, a

574
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: bigger problem.

575
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, just to answer that last question, I'm

576
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: terrified of the centralization and counterparty risk represented by large

577
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: custodians like Coinbase and others that are in the marketplace today.

578
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: I think there's a few million points collectively across those

579
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: top few custodians that are back in the ATFS and

580
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: some of the largest bitcoin institutional bitcoin holders in the world.

581
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: I understand how it got here, like like, it makes

582
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: sense that these are the choices that were made based

583
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: on what I understand about the market and regulatory asks

584
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: and other kinds of things. But that doesn't mean it

585
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: makes me any better about it. I think you one

586
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: might imagine, right that, as the co founder of unchained,

587
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: a collaborative custody firm that does not have the same

588
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: custody model as Coinbase, I might be excited to see,

589
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: you know, a bad outcome for Coinbase, a hack or

590
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: something that someone manages to steal huge amounts of bitcoin.

591
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: But honestly, oh my god, I couldn't. I could not

592
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: want that less that is an apocalyptic outcome in the

593
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: bitcoin industry, and it would set bitcoin adoption back. I

594
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: don't know ten years or more. I don't want to

595
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: see the app. I don't control Coinbase. I don't control

596
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: people's decision to use Coinbase exclusively above many other custodians

597
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: or other options and models. But I can work on

598
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: my own model. I can make it more accessible over time.

599
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: I can try to increase the scope of people that

600
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: are able to use collaborative custody to not just you know,

601
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 1: early bitcoin adopters who already have a hardware wallet, but

602
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: to increasingly new waves of people who don't have any

603
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: bitcoin at all, who are coming into bitcoin for the

604
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: first time, maybe in this cycle, and they're seeking for Okay,

605
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: what is the right model for me to use that

606
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: is safe, that I'm not going to get spear, that

607
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get locked out, that you know,

608
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: I'm not going to obviate some of the positive qualities

609
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: of bitcoin by picking, you know, a custodian in from

610
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: the get go. To your point about institutions, I think

611
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. It is way harder for institutions to

612
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: practice self custody or even collaborative custody than it is

613
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: for individuals. That's an absolute fact. I know that because

614
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: obviously I am a bitcoiner personally, but also my company

615
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: Unchain has to protect bitcoin private keys that we use,

616
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, on behalf of our clients. And the way

617
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: that Unchained does that is extremely different, far more complex

618
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: and involved in the way that I personally have to

619
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: engage with hardware, wats or other tools. It is easier

620
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: for me, partly again because I'm chained itself exists, so

621
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: I can be a client of Unchained and benefit from

622
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: their involvement in my own wallets, But it is much

623
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: harder for a company. I think. A simple observation is that,

624
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, hardware walts are literally designed to fit in

625
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: the palm of your hand, right, the palm of one hand. Right.

626
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: It's not something that the whole organization or the whole

627
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: compliance or finance or accounting team, or the controller or

628
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: whatever can access in that way. It's literally something that

629
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: goes in one person's hand. That's not a good ergonomic

630
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: form factor for an organization. What is the analog that

631
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: an organization should be using, like, I don't think there

632
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: exist like those tools quite yet, Unchained. I think has

633
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: tried at various times to build things for institutions or

634
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: to entice institutions to adopt self custody and collaborative custody.

635
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: But I think part of the reason those things don't

636
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: exist right now is because institutions aren't demanding them in

637
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: the same way. They're quite comfortable, actually perhaps too comfortable,

638
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: working with the centralized custodian like Coinbase. I think there's

639
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding, perhaps from a lot of institutions, that reputation

640
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: and brand and time in market somehow equal security. They

641
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: contribute to security. And I'm certainly not trying to say

642
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: that coinbase is insecure. I think Coinbase is amazingly secure.

643
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: I think they do a really good job protecting their keys,

644
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: and it's part of the reason they've lasted for so

645
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: long when so many other custodians and exchanges have been

646
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: hacked and have been breached. Coinbas is really good at

647
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: what they do. But you don't have to make that choice.

648
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: You don't have to rely on just one company, if

649
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: institutions themselves, if they're regulators, that institutions are often to

650
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: hold into right. If they come to understand that things

651
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: like collaborative custody are realistic options for even institutions to adopt,

652
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: and they make that part of their requirements for SAW

653
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: compliance or for other kinds of regulatory oversight that they have.

654
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: That could be a compelling reason why institutions start to switch,

655
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: But ultimately, I don't think regulators are that powerful in

656
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: this space. What will really cause institutions to switch over

657
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: to self custody and collaborative custody is the same thing

658
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: that cause individuals to do it, And I think that's

659
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: time and market.

660
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: It's paint, it's pain. Yeah, you only move when the

661
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: pain is high enough. Unfortunately, and to the point that

662
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: you made earlier. We don't want to see that pain.

663
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: So hopefully there's a wait to learn from others mistakes

664
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: and have to feel that pain on your own. What

665
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: do you think about you know, the the view that

666
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: Sotoshi actually created two digital scarcities. So there's the twenty

667
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: one million coins, but there's also the limited block space

668
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: and the potential. I mean, it seems like in the future,

669
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: however far this is, in this bitcoinized world, most people

670
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: won't be able to custody their own bitcoin or transact

671
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: on the main chain.

672
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think first of all, I think that's an

673
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: inevitable conclusion based on the structure and dynamics of bitcoin

674
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: and how it works. I don't think of it as

675
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: a direct monetary network that ten billion human beings and

676
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: one hundred billion AI agents can directly use, and I

677
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: think that's okay. There are ways to achieve sovereignty and

678
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: control and to align interests of users and the institutions

679
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: that serve them without having everybody be directly on the

680
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: blockchain in the same exact way. I might prefer an

681
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: outcome like that, but I don't know how to engineer

682
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: an outcome like that, and I'm willing, therefore to make

683
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: compromises and approximations in that ideal outcome in order to

684
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: actually get something built and have it be real. Like

685
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: it's better that some people can do it rather than

686
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: no people can do it, So our world would Bitcoin,

687
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: even when not everybody is on layer one, is still

688
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: a better world for me. I think today we have

689
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: a little bit too much of a binary kind of

690
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: picture of like it's either on chain or it's not,

691
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: and therefore it's like not good that it's off chain.

692
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: I think in the future that's more of a continuum.

693
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: There's on chain on chain on chain, like the thing

694
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: that we do today, frankly for very low cost, for

695
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: costs that I think will seem crazy in just ten

696
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: or twenty years, that you know, an individual like me

697
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: could send an individual like you a direct payment on

698
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: the blockchain and afford that you know, just from and

699
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: think of it as change and even think of it

700
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: as cheap, right. I think that's going to be a

701
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: remarkable feeling. One of my favorite statements about bitcoin transactions

702
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: that I attribute I think back to Nick Carter is

703
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: you should think of every bitcoin transaction like a container ship.

704
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: It's not something that two people send back and forth

705
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: between each other. It's something that is multiplexing a large

706
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: number of people's economic demand into this one resource. I

707
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: think there's a similar story about communication, right that when

708
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: we first started building telecommunications networks, you know, one wire,

709
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: one signal, one conversation, and today when we have giant

710
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: biroptic cables acrossing the ocean, it's not one guy talking

711
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: through that cable. There are thousands or millions of data

712
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: streams at one point being multiplexed through that same physical resource.

713
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: And I think of bitcoin transactions as things that we

714
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: will have to get so good at engineering that they

715
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: work the same way that we're able to jam a

716
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: lot of demand and economic throughput into these structures. And

717
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: part of the way that we'll have to achieve that is,

718
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: I think, having to use layers. But I don't think

719
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: again that somehow being on layer two and not having

720
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: a layer one UTXO to yourself or something is some

721
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: sort of I don't know, unacceptable outcome. I think it's

722
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: a different class of self sovereignty. I think it will

723
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: have different capabilities, but we shouldn't judge that by what

724
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: has today, right. I think Layer two today is very

725
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: basic and impoverished compared to what it could be in

726
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: a few decades from now, when the pressure and the

727
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: demand to build those things is higher. So yeah, I

728
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: absolutely endorse that vision of a layered, hierarchical, but free

729
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: and open way of engaging with bitcoin that is cost

730
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: effective for wherever you happen to be in the stack

731
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: rank of people economically throughout the entire globe. Right, I

732
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: absolutely agree with that. I also think it's really interesting

733
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: to go back to your climat about two different kinds

734
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: of scarcity, because that's something I very much see that

735
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: as well that I agree that there's kind of two

736
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: layers of market making going on in bitcoin all the time. Right.

737
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: One is this kind of what I would use a

738
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: more fundamental market related to the scarcity of twenty one

739
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: million bitcoins, related to the release of those bitcoins into circulation,

740
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: to an ask and bid process that has to price

741
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: in computations the release of those coins. And I think

742
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: there's a very different but related market for bitcoin transaction settlement,

743
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: where exactly as you say the scarcity, there is the

744
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: block size and the notion that we have to communicate

745
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: and put all these data into consensus at a global scale,

746
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: and that's expensive, but it's a different kind of resource

747
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: constraint than the idea that there's only twenty one million

748
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: bitcoins or that time passes in the same way for

749
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: all participants. Right, These are different but related ideas. I

750
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: think part of the brilliance of Satoshi is in not

751
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: trying to solve all the problems of money with one

752
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: solution or even one market, but building different markets with

753
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: different characteristics, different trading behavior, and coupling them together to

754
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: create something larger than either one is on its own.

755
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: And I think that's The pattern that I want to

756
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: see us in the bitcoin community extend over time is

757
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: building new layers of bitcoin software, not blockchains per se,

758
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: but software that are marketplaces that allow us to solve

759
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: new kinds of problems. And that every new layer that

760
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: we add, whether it's payments, whether it's lightning channels, whether

761
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: it's the exchange of packets or data, we're incentivizing people

762
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: with bitcoin to help build the services in the real

763
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: world that deliver this value proposition. And we're making bitcoin

764
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: as an ecosystem like broader where extending its reach, we're

765
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: making it more powerful, and I think ultimately we're helping

766
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: it defend its value proposition against encroaching centralization now and

767
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: into the future.

768
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the layers for a minute, because and

769
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: you look at money itself, you had gold sort of

770
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: as like this base layer, settlement layer, and then gold

771
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: was too slow to send around the world across the ocean,

772
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: so then we had like a layer two, so a ledger,

773
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: and then we could have paper money, and then maybe

774
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 2: that was too slow, so the banks gave us checks,

775
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: and that's like layer three, and then checks were slow,

776
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: so we had credit cards is layer four, and now

777
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: we have like Venmo, and you know, Venmo and paypaler

778
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: compete on like layer five or something. Right, maybe the

779
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: Internet is sort of also stacked up in that same

780
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: form of layers with different you know, SMTP protocols, AHTTPS protocols,

781
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 2: et cetera. So when you think about Bitcoin stacking up

782
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: in those layers, you've talked about it sort of as

783
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: these markets markets being stacked up on top of that.

784
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: So what are you referring to specifically when you talk

785
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: about these being like markets built up around bitcoin.

786
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: I think they're like Again, it kind of comes back

787
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: to the idea that people are incentivized to want to

788
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: earn bitcoin, and therefore, if we're smart, we can build

789
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: software right that defines markets in which people get paid

790
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: to do exactly the things we wanted them to do

791
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: in the first place. Again, I think that's what makes

792
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: bitcoin so robust is we aren't compelling people to provide

793
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: the services bitcoin mining and running nodes that allow bitcoin

794
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: to operate. They're incentivized to do so. And it's not

795
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: even necessarily because they're ideologues and they want Bitcoin to succeed,

796
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: though of course they do. It's because they're getting paid

797
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: in bitcoin to do it right, and it's very powerful

798
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: as an incentive. I think one of the coolest things

799
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: about the kind of market that I envision is even

800
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: though it has no regulation, it has no central control,

801
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: there's no one inspecting the product that is being sold,

802
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: there's no one accrediting the vendors, there's no reputation dynamics

803
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: amongst bitcoin miners. Somehow, no one has ever engaged in

804
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: fraud in this marketplace, which is to say, the bitcoin

805
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: mining community has never sold the Bitcoin network like a

806
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: fake block like that's never happened, Nor has anybody somehow

807
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 1: managed to get a fake transaction inserted into a block

808
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: that didn't pay the miner the transaction fee that was

809
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: claimed to be paid. The protections that exist for both

810
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: consumers as well as sellers in bitcoin's markets are extremely strong.

811
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: They're cryptographically guaranteeing the kind of trade.

812
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: Is that because of the incentives you mentioned the incentives,

813
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 2: so you're more incentivized to be a good actor than

814
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: to try to cheat the system. Or is it because

815
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 2: the cryptography is so strong there's no way to be

816
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 2: a good actor, or maybe a combination of both.

817
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: It's definitely a combination of both absolutely right that like,

818
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: because the cryptography is so strong, ever, serial behavior is

819
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: so easy to detect, and therefore it's very hard to

820
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: profit from, so you may as well just follow gods

821
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: right in spam, Like, it's sad to say it because

822
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine a person you know that would

823
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: for it, But the Nigerian imprint scam works, right, if it.

824
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: Didn't work after decades, it still works.

825
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: It works, it must be working right, and so it's

826
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: just one of those like if email is a language

827
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: is just such a weird, porous mechanism, it's not the

828
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: same thing as code, right, and code makes things very

829
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: precise and allows both minors and participants in the network

830
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: to be very confident of the economic exchange, the voluntary

831
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: economic exchange they're participating in. They each side knows what

832
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: they're going to get, right. The miners know they're going

833
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: to get the bitcoin. They're never not going to get

834
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: it if they're under service. And as consumers, we don't

835
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,959
Speaker 1: care which bitcoin minor minds the next block. We don't

836
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: care like what order our transaction appears in the block.

837
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: All we care is that the trade completes, and it

838
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: doesn't matter who's on the other side of that trade.

839
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: That's a very powerful kind of marketing, right, because it

840
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: leads to decentralization. We don't need to have a preferred

841
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: miner that we subscribe to the market as a whole

842
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: of miners is satisfying the demand from all of us

843
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: as consumers. And I'd love to bring properties like that

844
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: to things beyond the release of bitcoin into circulation or

845
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: the settlement of bitcoin transactions. I'd like to see payments

846
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: work that way that we're very confident that our payment

847
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: will succeed in a layer two because it's very profitable

848
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: for someone to complete that payment, and I like to

849
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 1: see that extended, right. I think again, as mentioned earlier,

850
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: that one of the beautiful surprises of building a payments

851
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: network is you're also kind of building a mini proto Internet.

852
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: That's very much what the lightning never is structured as.

853
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: And so the protections that we associate today with economic

854
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: activity like making payments and settling bitcoin transactions, if we

855
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: design the market correctly, can be applied to the exchange

856
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: of information for bitcoin, the routing of information, the delivery

857
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: of data can be things that you're doing not because

858
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: you're trying to be a good steward inside of tour

859
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: or inside of BitTorrent or some sort of peer to

860
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: peer file sharing program. It's because you're just trying to

861
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: make money in a marketplace that rewards you for completing

862
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: these very specific trades that meet the purposes of the

863
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: user of that network. I think those manipulating incentives through

864
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: code and creating outcomes where the most rational behavior is

865
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: to participate in growing a bottoms up new kind of

866
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: internet or new kind of communication network. These are really

867
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: powerful things, and ultimately I think they further enhance, you know,

868
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: the story and the mantle of bitcoin is some kind

869
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: of freedom money, right, because it creates defense in depth

870
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: for the underlying Bitcoin network, which today again runs on

871
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: the open Internet, which is extremely centralized and has all

872
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: sorts of you know, systemic issues with it. Maybe there's

873
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: a parallel here to right, there's like I think it's

874
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: a line of like, you know, if we want to

875
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: replace the money, we'll never be able to do it directly.

876
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: We'll have to do it in some complex, roundabout way

877
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: that people don't realize what's happening. It's kind of the

878
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: same story here, right. If we want to fix the Internet,

879
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: if we want to fix the world even right, we're

880
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: going to have to do it in these roundabout ways

881
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: by which we're just building new incentive structures, new markets

882
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: that incentivize people to solve problems that we collectively need solved.

883
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: So it's interesting kind of like, I don't know, would

884
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 1: you call it socialism as code, But it's not because

885
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: it's capitalism because everyone's getting paid to do it. But

886
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: it's also a planned economy because we wrote it in code.

887
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: It's it's something that's new. It's not easily and I

888
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: think that's why I'm so excited about it.

889
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you want to put a political

890
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: lean and I don't see it could be either. I mean,

891
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 2: obviously I guess it would be more capitalism just because

892
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: of the economic incentives. It's sort of like this Murray

893
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 2: Rothbard desis of pursuit of profits being the most noble

894
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: thing that you can do, because it's the pursuit of

895
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: profit that then makes you noble.

896
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: Right, So, like I think, I like the characture of

897
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: capitalism that is sometimes offered. It's not an unrestrained pursuit

898
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: of profits because you can't exploit those who are paying you.

899
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: Because the only thing you can sell them is exactly

900
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: the thing that they expect to buy. Sure, So in

901
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: that sense, it's very powerful protections for the consumers as well.

902
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: Now, when you think about that, and you've kind of

903
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: thrown out some like big ideas of what it could

904
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: potentially evolve too, have you thought of maybe any practical things,

905
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: have you seen any practical things, or do you have

906
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: a couple of ideas of where it could go, maybe

907
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: say to rebuild other industries like energy or communications or

908
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 2: content something like that. Governments will never stop printing money,

909
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: so inflation it's not going away. Now. If your money's

910
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 2: not earning at least ten percent a year, you're losing

911
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: purchasing power. Now, that's why I talk about bitcoin. It's

912
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: the number one way to beat inflation and secure your future.

913
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: And the question I get asked almost every day is

914
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: where do you buy your bitcoin? Now? For years, I've

915
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: personally used River dot com, and I only take on

916
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: sponsors that I use and I trust, and I trust

917
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: them because River's bitcoin only. They have one hundred percent reserve,

918
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: and they keep your bitcoin safe in cold storage with

919
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: no middlemen, and you can actually talk to a real person,

920
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: a US based support dedicated manager. Now try getting that

921
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: peace of mind from coinbase. Of course you can't. Now

922
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: the perks. If you set up auto buys, you can

923
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: pay zero fees plus instead if you're bank paying you,

924
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 2: you know, zero point four percent on cash, River pays

925
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 2: you three point seventy five percent on cash paid in bitcoin.

926
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: So if you're ready to build your bitcoin position with confidence,

927
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: go to River dot com, slash mark Moss and get

928
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: up to one hundred dollars in bitcoin when you sign up.

929
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 2: Because freedom starts when you own your money, and your

930
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: money starts with bitcoin.

931
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a little bit doing

932
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: Mott and Bailey here with you. Unfortunately, where like when

933
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: we talk about these abstract ideas, I'm willing to get

934
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 1: really you know, big minded and say, well, what if

935
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, all the Internet works in a different way

936
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: and it's all running on bitcoin. But truthfully, when push

937
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: comes to shove and it's twenty twenty five November and

938
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking out at what's actually out there, the answer

939
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: is there's not that much right now. Like, yes, of

940
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: course we have bitcoin, and bitcoin is happily doing the

941
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: thing it needs to do every ten minutes, and we're

942
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: starting to now build things like layer twos and so forth.

943
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, transactions are still

944
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 1: incredibly cheap on bitcoin. We don't there simply isn't enough

945
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: CONSI for.

946
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: Us is that, Yeah, last time bitcoin was in this

947
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: price range, the block space was full, and now the

948
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 2: block space is empty.

949
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Exactly right.

950
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: But I you know something, I've tried to think about it. Right. Actually,

951
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: I put together this thesis last year. I did a

952
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 2: closing keynote at Bitcoin Mina Abu Dhabi and I and

953
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: I talked about this, you know, charting bitcoin's sort of

954
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: evolutionary path, and I use this fifty year technological revolution,

955
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: this K wave cycle, and then use like an S

956
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: curve over the top of it, and then I kind

957
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: of put in like monetary evolution, there's four steps of

958
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: monetary evolution. And anyway, I try to pull this together,

959
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: and I basically said, I think between twenty thirty to

960
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: twenty forty is where bitcoin sort of hits that medium

961
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: of exchange phase, and I think it will be primarily

962
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: driven by AI agents and because they need to transact

963
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: micro transactions at high frequency. And then I started so

964
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: then I spent a lot of time thinking of all

965
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: these different ways that can potentially happen, and of course

966
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: it's all just guess and theory, but like one thing

967
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: we're starting to see and Elon Musk just talked about it,

968
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: like maybe having this fleet of auto taxis have data

969
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: centers or turned into nodes of data centers. And so

970
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: you could think of like AI agents paying other AI agents.

971
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: What do they pay for? How much is the cost

972
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: of hire another AI agent? Well, it's the cost of

973
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 2: compute and energy, and so you could see AI agents

974
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: using micropayments, light need to pay for inference on different

975
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: models or something like that.

976
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I think

977
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: maybe I've been having a lot of thoughts like these

978
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: for a number of years, Like it's part of I

979
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: think what drew me to bitcoin is the promise of

980
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 1: bitcoin as a farer, sounder money, but also a tool

981
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: that we can use to build things in particular, like

982
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: things like a more efficient, fairer open Internet. The kind

983
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: of thing that I was told we were building in

984
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: the nineties but never quite materialized, is that we just

985
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: built a centrally managed internet in a variety of ways,

986
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: we kind of all centralized on platforms like Google and

987
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: Facebook and social networks and email and all these things.

988
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I think AI is like potentially a very interesting decentralization vector.

989
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: I think today AI is fantastically centralizing, Like that's the

990
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: that's where AI is as tetemology right now. You need

991
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: massive amounts of data, compute, and capital in order to

992
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: build AI today. And then the business model for AI

993
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: is of course then renting the capability out to users

994
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: and then centralized or in purveyor of the AA profiting

995
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: from that process. But that's today, right. I think I

996
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: saw a really interesting talk at Defcon a month or

997
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: two ago where someone had built an AI that goes

998
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: out and finds bugs right in in bug bounty programs

999
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: like y'all Baeford of like hacker one or other platforms

1000
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 1: where companies are paying individuals to find bugs and flaws

1001
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: in their software. So someone programmed an AI to go

1002
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: out and you know, apply for those bounties, find the bugs,

1003
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: document them, you know, get the money from the bounty program.

1004
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: And it was interesting. I think the a I wound

1005
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: up making something like hundreds of thousands of dollars in

1006
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: bug bounties during the course of the year, or the

1007
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: experiment that this researcher was running the program in and

1008
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: it was very impressive, right, the idea that you could

1009
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: just kind of put together this piece of code that

1010
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: is sitting there earning a few hundred thousand dollars in

1011
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: bug bounty, except that it costs like one point two

1012
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: million dollars in tokens. But that's an interesting gap, right,

1013
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: That's that thinks that's a today issue. Is AI becomes

1014
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: more capable, as it becomes more efficient, there's some line

1015
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: that gets crossed, right, like how much bitcoin can the

1016
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: AI earn versus what does it cost to run the AI?

1017
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: And when those two things cross, I think someone is

1018
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: going to build an AI that that is no longer

1019
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: necessarily controlled by one person, that just kind of lends

1020
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: out there and it's self profit, it's self propagating because

1021
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: it's able to earn enough bitcoin to continue to pay

1022
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 1: for whatever cycles that it's consuming from wherever it's consuming

1023
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: them from. That hasn't really materialized yet, But if it

1024
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 1: starts to materialize, I think the world gets really really,

1025
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: really interesting because now you maybe bring some aspects of

1026
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: evolution and optimization into AI beyond human beings, designing them

1027
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: to solve specific problems. And then it really gets interesting

1028
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: because now Bitcoin, I think, kind of becomes something of

1029
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: an energetic currency for this, you know, kind of I

1030
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: would even call like a new kind of life, right,

1031
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: And it's out there trying to make its you know,

1032
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: trying to pay for thoughts and feelings and its memories

1033
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: in bitcoin, and it does so by providing services. So

1034
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: I think a lot of what previously I might have

1035
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: interpreted as human beings will go out and we'll build

1036
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: big you know, we'll build payment things, and we'll build

1037
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: data transfer things, and we'll build all these nodes in

1038
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: this marketplace that helps change the Internet. Maybe it won't

1039
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: be human beings. Maybe it'll be AI that understands that

1040
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: if like everything Mark says on Twitter is really valuable,

1041
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: people want to read it. If I just store it,

1042
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 1: then they'll just buy it from me and I'll give

1043
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: it out to them and I'll make bitcoin doing that,

1044
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: and then that way I'll pay to make copies of myself.

1045
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: And now is this a stable pattern? Now you have

1046
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: a Mark Moss repeater bot somewhere out there on the Internet,

1047
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: but they're one for everyb there's one for general content.

1048
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: These are patterns that we haven't really tried yet, and

1049
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting to see what effect AI

1050
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: and bitcoin will have on each other as they kind

1051
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: of co evolve.

1052
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about another emerging bitcoin and

1053
00:49:53,600 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: computational problem that's that's coming up, and that's quantum Aha. Yes,

1054
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 2: I mean we can already see the problems AI is creating,

1055
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: so you know, whether that be trying to find these

1056
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: bounties or cracking codes potentially obviously there's all types of

1057
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: levels of phishing attacks that AI has been able to do.

1058
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 2: And we talked about Coinbase earlier, like Coinbase hasn't been hacked,

1059
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: but they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars through social attacks,

1060
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: right because AI is so smart. But the big threat

1061
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: that we have right now is quantum computing. And I've

1062
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: seen everything from it's ten to fifteen years out. No,

1063
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: it could actually be much shorter. I've seen that. Well,

1064
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: really it's only the first years or so worth of

1065
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: coins that haven't been moved and be moved to a

1066
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: new address, but then potentially even moving to a new

1067
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: address exposed to the key, there's you know, potential mining

1068
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 2: pool and whatever. Obviously, as somebody who's been building security

1069
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: around bitcoin for a long time. How do you view

1070
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: the threat of quantum.

1071
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: Slow burning but dangerous. Yeah, Like I certainly would not

1072
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: state that I'm worried about it today, either individually or

1073
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: at my business or for our clients, but it will

1074
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: be a concern in our lifetimes like that much I

1075
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: feel very confident about Again, when exactly is it ten

1076
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: to fifteen years? Is five years? Is it twenty five years?

1077
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: I think there's this concept of Q day, like when

1078
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: does the quantum computer become powerful enough to be a threat?

1079
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: And I think currently it's like twenty thirty five or

1080
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: some number. I don't know who comes up with these numbers,

1081
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: but there's clearly a range and distribution of estimates of

1082
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: when this starts to become a real concern. I think

1083
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: something that's not necessarily talked about enough in the quantum

1084
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: computing discourse is how much Bitcoin is a factor, and

1085
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: in fact, the bitcoin price is a factor in the

1086
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: incentive structure for driving quantum computing. I think most people

1087
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: who are working on quantum computing in a professional way,

1088
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: the researchers and scientists, think that they're building tools for

1089
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: understanding matter, right. I think sometimes when quantum computing. It

1090
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: described in a popular audience will try out the traveling salesmen,

1091
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about cryptography, and we'll talk about all

1092
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: these computery things. But a lot of people actually working

1093
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: in the field think of it as well, this is

1094
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: just probably the most effective way to simulate quantum matter.

1095
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: And why would you want to steal away quantum matter. Well,

1096
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: because you want to do drug discovery, you want to

1097
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 1: engage in material science, you want to figure out new

1098
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: things that you can build in the world out of atoms,

1099
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: and quantum computers are also really really good at that.

1100
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: And so from that perspective, what's the monetization pathway for

1101
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: quantum computing. Well, it's presumably you're going to come up

1102
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: with some new material, or you're going to come up

1103
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: with some new kind of drug that has some great

1104
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: effects and then you're going to make money eventually because

1105
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: of that thing. But that's very indirect. You're a new

1106
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: drug is going to have to go through trials, it's

1107
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: going to there's a supply chain, there's all sorts of issues,

1108
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: Like if quantum computers are just dealing bitcoin, it's a

1109
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: lot easier for them to accomplish and a lot more

1110
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: direct path to monetization. But Bitcoin is still still small

1111
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: compared to the potential revenues from you know, revolutionary drugs

1112
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: that can be brought to market, or new synthetic materials

1113
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: potentially that won't always be true, or.

1114
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: The Doe or the Treasury or Wall Street. I mean,

1115
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: bitcoin is small compared to all of those.

1116
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly, But in just a few cycles, right,

1117
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: if Bitcoin's price continues to appreciate by significant amounts a

1118
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: year after a year after a year after year, at

1119
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: some point just the idea of stealing to Toshi's coins

1120
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: becomes a meaningful incentive towards spending resources on optimizing quantum computers.

1121
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: And I think what's also not appreciated, widely perhased by

1122
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,720
Speaker 1: the bitcoin community is how non linear development and progress

1123
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: in quantum computing is. It's not the kind of thing

1124
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: where it gets incrementally ten percent better every year, and

1125
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: therefore we can track and predict it. There are error

1126
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: correcting algorithms and new hardware approaches and stuff that they

1127
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: were they to become successful, could meaningfully change the roadmap

1128
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: and the estimates for when QDA comes along. So I

1129
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: definitely worry about these things, But do you.

1130
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 2: Think it's worrying about like the unknown? Right? So it's like,

1131
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: if I'm worried about someone breaking into my house or

1132
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: attacking in the United States, then what are the potential

1133
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: attack vectors of the United States or for my house,

1134
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 2: and how do I protect myself against that attack vector?

1135
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 2: But like, how do we protect ourselves from aliens? I

1136
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: don't even know what would the aliens even do? Right,

1137
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: So it's like sort of like we're worried about what

1138
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 2: if maybe one day, but we don't even know what

1139
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: that a tech vector would look like. So we don't

1140
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: really even know how to protect ourselves. So maybe bitcoin

1141
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: isn't quite as big as that because we can see

1142
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: well it can attack the cryptographic key. But then kind

1143
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: of going back to what I said, it looks like

1144
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: we have some fixes that are already in line where

1145
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 2: we could just move the keys to a new signature.

1146
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 1: Right, there are definitely some plans. I think. What's interesting

1147
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: is in only in the last couple of years I

1148
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,439
Speaker 1: believe did like NIS for example, start recommending sorry States

1149
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: start disrecommending certain cryptographic algorithms, largely because of a fear

1150
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: of upcoming quantum computers. And started in fact recommending certain

1151
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: post quantum encryption schemes because they're believed to be resistant

1152
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: against you know, whatever may be coming. So that's an

1153
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: interesting transition that like even at the you know, DoD

1154
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: government level, like they're starting to recognize, hey, maybe you

1155
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: should be switching over to this. Also, Google, I believe

1156
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: in Signal, have started in certain of their software to

1157
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: start using post quantum uh post quantum cryotography for certain

1158
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: use cases. I think it's also built into a couple

1159
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: open source encryption tools like open SSL and gosh something

1160
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: else I'm forgetting right now. So it's just starting to

1161
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: show up. I think it's for a long time. I

1162
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: think there was this idea floating around in that like

1163
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: somehow post quantum comput computing is like not possible or

1164
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: it's like really bad or really slow, and like it

1165
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: still has challenges, but it's a lot more practical than

1166
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people give it credit for.

1167
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: I think what's missing is like the killer app of

1168
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: like who cares enough to like want to invest in

1169
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: this and want to switch their systems over to using

1170
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: it and maybe deal with interface changes or you know,

1171
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: latency changes or other issues that are caused by this.

1172
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: I think bitcoiners are going to care sooner than most communities,

1173
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: just because again I think we have it's easier to

1174
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: for an attacker to make profit by attacking bitcoin than

1175
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: it is to go out and do materials. Sign is discovery.

1176
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: But do you think since Satoshi warned us before he

1177
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 2: left about quantum, people have been talking about it since

1178
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: day one, They're still talking about it today. When we

1179
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 2: think about and again, post quantum, how do we know

1180
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 2: what post quantum is. We don't even have quantum. But

1181
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: if we think about that, I mean, it seems like,

1182
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm trying to ask you, because you're

1183
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: the expert here, it seems like we have pretty good

1184
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 2: solutions to secure coins that we can move, but maybe

1185
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 2: it's Satoshi's coins that are at risk. Do you think

1186
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: that that's a sort of a fair way to look

1187
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: at it. Probably all the coins that can be moved

1188
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 2: could be safe, but Satoshi's coins will be probably the

1189
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 2: biggest thing that will be at risk in that post

1190
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 2: quantum world. Or is that too simplistic?

1191
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: I would say a couple of things. It's like number one,

1192
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: I think we have a good understanding of the capabilities

1193
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: of quantum computers, even if we don't have a good

1194
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: engineering capability to build the quantum computers, so we can

1195
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: make claims about well, in the future when quantum computers

1196
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: become more capable, here's what they'll be good at, and

1197
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: here's what they won't be good at. I think those

1198
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: are things that we understand Todayay, So that is what

1199
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: allows us to even define things like post quantum computing

1200
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: algorithms and procedures, because we know that even if the

1201
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: quantum computer existed, it wouldn't be able to do this, right,

1202
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: So we have some confidence that this tool exists, and

1203
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: to your point, it definitely does exist, and to the

1204
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: point where it's being recommended and it incorporated into certain

1205
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: software already outside of Bitcoin. Again, what's hard about bitcoin

1206
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: is because it is decentralized, because no one runs it,

1207
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: because NIS can't decide to go change it for everybody,

1208
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: there has to be kind of a bottoms up adoption process,

1209
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: and that's where I think some of the fear is

1210
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: because okay, fine, maybe you and I will whenever. So

1211
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: first of all, bitcoin has to solve the how will

1212
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: we get consensus about what changes to make? Which of

1213
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: these schemes should we use, how should it be spelled

1214
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: and implemented and all that stuff. Let's say we even

1215
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: solve that problem, Well, you and I can then go

1216
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: ahead and decide to take action. We can take our

1217
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: funds from whatever seguit wallet we have today and move

1218
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: it into a post quantum version of that wallet, using

1219
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: whatever our post quantum computing technology Bitcoin decides to adopt.

1220
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: But again, what about Satoshi's coins?

1221
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: Right?

1222
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: Like, we can't make that. That's not a technology statement,

1223
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: that's a I don't know, a policy statement or a

1224
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: consensus statement, like what should be Bitcoin's attitude towards coins

1225
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: that are not moved into post quantum structures? Should we

1226
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: just let them get stolen? Should we you know, destroy them?

1227
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any great solution to this problem,

1228
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: and I think, unfortunately, because the toci's coins are so numerous,

1229
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: or at least what are thought to be to Toci's

1230
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: coins are so numerous, this will be an issue at

1231
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 1: some point.

1232
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 2: I think we just have to let it go. I

1233
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: think we just do nothing. I would do my guess.

1234
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the market just absorbed four hundred thousand bitcoin

1235
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 2: selling in the last whatever you know, sixty days, like

1236
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: we can absorb a million by the time that comes

1237
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: in five, eight, ten years, like we can absorb a

1238
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: million coins.

1239
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: You know, I like that idea because it is the simplest,

1240
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: and I often thinks. I often think, in especially maybe

1241
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: centralized context like bitcoins, the simplest idea probably win and.

1242
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 2: It's the most the most free market, decentralized way. Otherwise

1243
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: we're making some changes to bitcoin that could change the

1244
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: long term trajectory of bitcoin, and it would be my fear.

1245
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: I also think, though, is that you know, you talked

1246
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 2: about the bounty of being able to get those coins

1247
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: for example. But I would think, and you correct me

1248
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong on this, but I would think, you know,

1249
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: solving this or creating this quantum computer is such a

1250
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 2: big task. It would most likely be a Google or

1251
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: Opening or something like that that creates it, not some

1252
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 2: like indie hacker in Pakistan. Most likely, right, So it's

1253
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: going to be a Google or something like that creates it.

1254
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: And Google is certainly not going to go steal bitcoin,

1255
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: right or it's.

1256
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: A nation state that has decided that I want to

1257
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: play by the rules and then have the resources and

1258
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: the desire to do this.

1259
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: But if they wanted to steal bitcoin for economic gain

1260
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: and they destroyed the bitcoin network, then all the work

1261
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: they did to steal the bitcoin becomes futile and worthless.

1262
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: I guess the question is would it impact the Bitcoin

1263
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: network itself or not? Right like socious coin, systm is

1264
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: aren't doing anything right now, They're just kind of sitting

1265
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: there right, so if they sort of entered the market,

1266
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: it could potentially even be positive, depending on I guess

1267
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: who took them. I suppose maybe there's the argument that

1268
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: the United States rises to this challenge and decides that

1269
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: they're going to do it because they don't want anybody

1270
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: else to The game. Theory is I think interesting because

1271
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: it's very price dependent. It depends on what you think

1272
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: the return is on taking these actions. Certainly, I think

1273
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: a silly thing to do would be to steal all

1274
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: the bitcoin and then, like I don't know, sell it

1275
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: for dollars somehow. Like that would be that doesn't make

1276
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 1: any sense, and I agree that's not a real worry.

1277
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: I think if they took Stoshi's coins, but the rest

1278
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 2: of that network still was secure because it moved to

1279
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: quantum post quantum encryption, then it doesn't really affect the

1280
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: bitcoin network and so probably doesn't affect the price, and hey, congratulations,

1281
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 2: you got the bounty. Versus if they stole all the

1282
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: bitcoin and crush the network, then it all becomes worthless,

1283
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 2: and so then they've yeah, agreed, you'd probably be better

1284
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 2: off going and stealing money from the treasury and buying bitcoin.

1285
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 2: Then in that case, you know, I mean, I.

1286
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: Think the worst outcome would be something like we doadle,

1287
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: we fight amongst ourselves, we can't decide on a post

1288
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: quantum solution effectively, and meanwhile, some crazy nonlinear change happens

1289
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,959
Speaker 1: and quantum computers just become fantastically easier to make because

1290
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: of some simple new idea. Yeah, that someone came up with.

1291
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: That's a bad combination. We don't want that, right. We

1292
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: want to stay ahead of the developments in quantum commuting

1293
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: to make sure that the outcome is more like what

1294
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: you describe, which is everybody who cares, everybody who's actively

1295
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: holding their coins has plenty of time to go through

1296
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: this transition and it's easy, and then it's really only

1297
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,919
Speaker 1: the stragglers and the lost coins at the Tokio's coins

1298
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: which are left. That is, probably one of the better outcomes.

1299
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,479
Speaker 1: And I think in a situation like that, it would

1300
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: be pretty easy to say, just don't do anything, let

1301
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: them get stolen. I think where you might start to

1302
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: see more agitated and centralized concerns happen is if we

1303
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: aren't able to achieve that, if it's perceived as some

1304
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,479
Speaker 1: kind of emergency that we have to take action. Now,

1305
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, that's usually the door through which centralization starts standing.

1306
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. All right, Drew,

1307
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: Let's wrap it up and ask you one question here.

1308
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 2: So for someone who's listening to this, they're skeptical, they

1309
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: still think bitcoin is just digital gold, or even more

1310
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: useless than digital gold. Peterer Shift still wants to tokenize gold.

1311
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: What would you say to them?

1312
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: Maybe I'd say different things. I'm not sure what I

1313
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: could say to someone in a Peter Shift position at

1314
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: this point. I think that's increasingly an ostrich head in

1315
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 1: the sand kind of attitude. There's something here to the

1316
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:16,479
Speaker 1: point that even even those who you know railed against

1317
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: bitcoin for years are kind of coming on board, admitting

1318
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: that their firms and their family offices and so forth

1319
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: need to get involved. So I think I would kind

1320
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: of be at a loss for that person. The other

1321
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: person I think I'm much more interested in talking to

1322
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: because I think someone that believes that bitcoin is money

1323
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: and money alone, and that's all it never needs to be,

1324
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 1: and we don't need to worry about where two payment networks.

1325
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: We don't need to worry about all these concerns. I

1326
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, I wonder what they think that

1327
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: the world looks like in fifty years, right when everyone

1328
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: is using bitcoin, but we never built a payments system

1329
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: for like, how is that going to even work? And

1330
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: if their answer is, oh, well, we'll build a payment

1331
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: system that will for sure happen, but none of the

1332
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: other stuff will happen, well, now I'm like, well, okay,

1333
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: you've built a micro payments network in bitcoin. Your your

1334
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: micropayments network is a data network, like there is. There's

1335
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: no difference between moving data, which represents payments, and moving data,

1336
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: which doesn't represent payments. If you've already built the bitcoin

1337
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: denominated communication protocol to do that, so you've already invented

1338
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm saying we're going to invent, and

1339
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: everything else will just happen naturally, like people will engage

1340
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: in piracy naturally because it's impossible to stop them from

1341
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, selling you data. And then if that becomes unstoppable,

1342
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: well then it becomes real and then we have to

1343
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: deal with the consequences of that. So for me, it's

1344
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: a little bit like moving steps socratically and sort of ask.

1345
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: Very few people that I've met in bitcoin believe that

1346
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: we don't need to scale payments and custody in any way,

1347
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: and that we'll all just be fine using bitcoin, that

1348
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: we should immediately ossify it today, that there are no

1349
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: concerns like quantic computing or others that we need to

1350
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: respond to. I think that's a very that's it itself.

1351
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: It's a kind of ostrich head in the same kind

1352
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: of position right now.

1353
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 2: Well, I'd love to dig into that conversation, but that's

1354
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: a whole other can of worms to open up, So

1355
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 2: we're gonna have to the table that one for another conversation, Drew.

1356
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: But you know, I love to see all the building

1357
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: on layer two, three, four, or five, like back to

1358
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 2: the the either unintended consequences or the beautiful surprise, and mean,

1359
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 2: who knows what happens if we keep tinkering. But Anyway,

1360
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 2: Drew and I wrap it up with that as a

1361
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: good point. Obviously, you're the co founder of Unchained Capital.

1362
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,479
Speaker 2: I've been using Unchained for years. I use their multi sig.

1363
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: I've got my dad on Unchained so we can set

1364
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 2: up his legacy, his will, all that on there as well.

1365
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 2: We'll link to that down below. Anything else you want

1366
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 2: to drive people's attention to.

1367
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: Maybe just to underscore that idea, I got my dad

1368
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,959
Speaker 1: on there too. I'm very proud that I've been able

1369
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: to get so many of my family members to start

1370
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: using unchained, and also that I'm helping them to do so.

1371
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: I Chain has a feature which we call connections, in

1372
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: which the multi sig multi party collaboration is not just

1373
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: between you and Unchained, it's between you, your friends, your

1374
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 1: family members, Unchained other third parties. This allows you to

1375
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 1: really customize the things that you want to build. So,

1376
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: just for example, in my family, I've got several of

1377
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: my more technological uncles who work at Amazon and other places.

1378
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: They're helping the rest of the family who's less technologically

1379
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: capable kind of get on board. Some of them are

1380
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: holding a Bitcoin without holding any key, but they're not

1381
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: using an ETF and they're not using Coinbase. They're relying

1382
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: on the family to hold those keys and protect them, right.

1383
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of that happening informally, where

1384
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 1: you'll just you know, call a friend or hey, buy

1385
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: some bitcoin for me and hang on to it. But

1386
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: this is a more formal way to do that, in

1387
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 1: which you still get to have legal ownership and control,

1388
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: but the custodial part has been delegated by you to

1389
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: someone that you trust that maybe even has you know,

1390
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: connections with your inheritance plan and all these ideas. So

1391
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: I would kind of bring it back to you know,

1392
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: if you're not if you're not in bitcoin, you got

1393
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: to get into bitcoin. If you're in bit coin, you

1394
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: want to do it right, please use unchained or some

1395
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: other collaborative custody type service. I really believe that it's

1396
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: the best way for most people to hold bitcoin, even

1397
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: if you're not using unchained. There's many providers now in

1398
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: the space, and that if you're using unchained in particular,

1399
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:43,919
Speaker 1: really look at our connections future, because I think that's

1400
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: not only a way to improve your own inheritance procedures,

1401
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: it's also a way to help bring in your friends

1402
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 1: and family that maybe aren't as sophisticated as you. Right,

1403
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: they're not daily walkers of the Mark Moss Show, they're

1404
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 1: not up to date on all the hardware rolets. If

1405
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: you're that person, you can help them.

1406
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: And what I love about Unchained is you have the

1407
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 2: concierge service because this is all pretty complex and I

1408
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: don't know which is the best option for me, and

1409
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:04,959
Speaker 2: so you can get somebody live on like a zoom

1410
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 2: call that can just like walk you through it because

1411
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 2: it is it is crucial that you don't make a mistake.

1412
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:13,479
Speaker 2: And so anyway, having that that there is a good option,

1413
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,439
Speaker 2: we'll link to that down below. Drew, we're gonna wrap

1414
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: it up with that. Thanks so much.

1415
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 1: Thanks Mark,