1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. When 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: I returned to Boulder, my body was different. A summer 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: metamorphosis was a familiar plot line in the y A 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: novels I had once read. Often the teenage girl character 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: transformed by growing breasts or by getting her period, something 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: that advanced her maturity. I felt I'd been forward to 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: even though I turned back the clock, I was no 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: longer menstruating. But if you had glimpsed me on the street, 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: then you would not have been startled or necessarily thought 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: that girl needs to eat. You might have thought, as 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: I did, then, that girl looks pretty. In my bathroom, 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: I took off my pajamas and wrapped myself in the towel. 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Through my mother's bedroom door, I heard the fuzz of 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: the shower. I waited a few minutes for her to 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: be done. When I went into the master sweet she 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: was in her closet choosing clothes. Morning Edition was playing 17 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: through a clock radio. I entered her bathroom, hung my 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: towel on the bar across the shower door, and stood 19 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: naked on the scale. This was the white scale from Target. 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: I could go through all the scales we'd ever had. 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: The one with the big round dial that my grandparents 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: had sent the first digital scale we owned, where the 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: led readout was raised on a stick. Now Here I 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: was on a pebbly white surface at the beginning of 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: a new year, lighter than I'd ever been. Lighter. Everything 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: in that word air and joy and wonder. That's Susan Burton, 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: reading from her recent memoir Empty. Susan's is the story 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: of an addiction invisible on the surface to a substance 29 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: that can't be quit. Food. We just can't quit food. 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: But what happened when eating becomes so disordered that everything 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: about it consuming? Purging, starving withholding binging is a dangerous 32 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: and consuming obsession that takes over a life. This is 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: a story of hidden shame, distorted body image, perfectionism gone haywire, 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: and ultimately what it takes to heal. I'm Danny Shapiro, 35 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept 36 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 37 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. So described for me the 38 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: landscape of your childhood. I was from two places, and 39 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: that feeling of being from two places really defined my childhood. 40 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and grew up 41 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: in a suburb of that city called Aida. It was 42 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: a landscape of kind of roller coaster hills and farmland 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: that was now suburbia. I grew up in a you know, 44 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: gray house with black shutters, kind of picture perfect. My 45 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: mother decorated it with Laura Ashley, so there were you know, 46 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: Laura Ashley floral pleated lamp shades and balloon blinds. And 47 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: I moved when I was thirteen to Boulder, Colorado. My 48 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: parents got divorced, and my mother and sister and I 49 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: went west. My mother had romantic notions about the frontier, 50 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: and I sort of internalized that I didn't have any 51 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: real understanding of the history of the American West. But 52 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: I had my own amantic notions about the frontier too, 53 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: because I wanted to reinvent myself in this new place. 54 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: I've been sort of a nerdy middle schooler, and I 55 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: wanted to be um a popular girl in this place 56 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: where nobody knew me. So Boulder, you know, it was 57 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: a very different landscape than West Michigan. Boulder is where 58 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: the Great Plains explode into the rocky mountains. Essential skyline 59 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: of the city is a dramatic rock backdrop called the 60 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: flat Irons, and the white peaks of the Rockies are behind. 61 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: And it took a while for that landscape to feel 62 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: like home for years. Not for years, but maybe for 63 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: the first year it felt to me sort of like 64 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: a Hollywood backdrop. But I don't live in the West anymore, 65 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: and it's now a landscape that I longed for, the 66 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: feeling of being in that dry air under you know, 67 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: those enormous skies and that hot sun and you know 68 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: sort of the daily thunderstorms in the sun er. There's 69 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: a lot about the openness of the West that I 70 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: miss in both landscape and spirit. It's interesting that you 71 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: use the phrase like a Hollywood backdrop, because then this 72 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: sense of reinvention, for you know, self invention at the 73 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: age of thirteen, starts to take root when you're a 74 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 1: new kid in a new school, um starting a new chapter. 75 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely yeah. I'd been a very kind of studious 76 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: middle schooler, and once I knew that I was going 77 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,119 Speaker 1: to be in a new place where nobody knew my history, 78 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: I had this fantasy that I could be a girl 79 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: like the one in the pages of seventeen Maxine, which 80 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: I loved. But when I say I wanted to be 81 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: like a girl in seventeen, I wasn't really thinking about body. 82 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: It was more a question of personality for me. I 83 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: wanted to be like a bubbly girl with like a 84 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: side pony hail and a boyfriend, and I wanted to 85 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: wear leg warmers and tam PACs like I It was. 86 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 1: It was more of kind of a vibe I was after. 87 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: But I think what's important is that I wasn't okay 88 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: with who I was. I wasn't okay with showing my 89 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: real self and that there's something I have to hide, 90 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: and that I need to pretend to be somebody else 91 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: in order to have friends in order to connect, in 92 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: order to be okay. Could you describe both of your 93 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: parents for me. Yeah. We lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan, 94 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: because my father was the news director of a local 95 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: radio station called Wood and some my earliest memories are 96 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: of sitting at the kitchen table eating an English muffin 97 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: very early in the morning and hearing my father's voice 98 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: come out of the radio behind me. He quit that 99 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: job when I was six years old to write a 100 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: novel and then did sort of various I guess now 101 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: we would call them passion projects at home in the study. 102 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: For most of my childhood, my father was a very 103 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: handsome and charismatic figure. He'd gone to and Over and Yale, 104 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: both my parents had grown up in the Northeast, and 105 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: he was very funny. But he had a temper, he 106 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: had a darker side, and he had a tendency to isolate. 107 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: You know. I think I bring up those passion projects 108 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: in the study because my memories of my father are 109 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: very tied to him sort of retreating, retreating into the study. 110 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: In the basement, he had a dark room where he 111 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: developed photographs, and he had a room he called his 112 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: ham shack where he kept his ham radio equipment, and 113 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: he would go down to those spaces. There was a 114 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: real need to be alone, you know. He was somebody 115 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to do well for, I wanted to please. 116 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: I feel very connected him. We share the same middle name, 117 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: and we share similar looks. My mother and my sister 118 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: are both dark haired and dark eyed, and my father 119 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: and I are both fair and blue eyed. And it 120 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 1: was just, you know, one one way that I always 121 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: felt very connected to him as a kid. I'm just 122 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about your mother too, and not looking like 123 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: your mother. It's funny, you know when I say it, 124 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: it sounds slight, but it's It was the kind of 125 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: thing like I remember being a kid and being in 126 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: the checkout line at the grocery store with my mother 127 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: and you know, and a grocery store cashier saying, she 128 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: doesn't look like your daughter, which is so strange to me. Now, 129 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: if you were to see my like if my mother 130 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: and I were walking down the sidewalk, it would be 131 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: so clear we were mother and daughter. We have very 132 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: similar features, but I think the dark hair and kind 133 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: of the you know, white blonde hair of of a 134 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: young child maybe was so striking. So where my father 135 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: was sort of charismatic and could command a room, it 136 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: was literally a broadcaster, you know, holding a mic and 137 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: asking questions. My mother was shyre. She always had lots 138 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: of friends, but wasn't you know, it wasn't like she 139 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: was like throwing dinner party. She had close friends. Both 140 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: my parents were readers. My mother, more than anyone else 141 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: in my life, is the person who made me a 142 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: reader and a writer. I wouldn't say she was the 143 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: She wasn't the kind of mother who would for example, 144 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: sit down on the floor with me and play with 145 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: my dollhouse. Which she was a mother who understood how 146 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: potent and how wonderful it was to be a little 147 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: girl playing with the dollhouse. So she she granted me 148 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot of like imaginative freedom and space. But they had, 149 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, they had a troubled marriage, and my mother's 150 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: sort of acquiescence and passivity in their marriage, she sort 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: of exploded that hall. She ended up leaving my father 152 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: um when I was thirteen, and that's when we went 153 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: to Boulder. So many stories of family secrets originate in shame. 154 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: It is so often a shame that causes the islands 155 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: in which secrets fester and grow, making it impossible or 156 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: at least terrifying, to speak the truth of our inner lives. 157 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: One particular evening, when Susan is thirteen, she hears her 158 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: parents fighting, and she hears her father say something truly 159 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: horrible to her mother. He calls her disgusting. Susan internalizes 160 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: this word. In time, it becomes a weapon she turns 161 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: on herself. I was thirteen, I was in eighth grade. 162 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: I had a friend sleeping over and I remember waking 163 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: early in the morning and I heard my parents. You know, 164 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: people talk about their parents fighting. I sort of don't 165 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: think of my parents as fighting, and this sounds cruel, 166 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: but but I think of my father be rating my mother. 167 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: And that was essentially what was happening in their room 168 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: across the landing. And at one point I heard my 169 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: father say, you disgusted me, You're disgusting, And then I 170 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: heard him leave the room and walked down the stairs, 171 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: opened the door and closed the door and go running. 172 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: It was a frightening moment. I was thirteen years old. 173 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: Part of me was wondering about my friend. Was she asleep, 174 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: had she heard? But I really wondered what my father 175 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: found disgusting about my mother. And the answer that seemed 176 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: the realist to me in that moment. The answer my 177 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, my head sort of offered up was that 178 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: he was disgusted by her body, and not just her 179 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: body in general, but in my mind, it was a 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: specific part of her body. He was disgusted by her stomach. 181 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: She was often talking about how she had a little 182 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: pot belly. There was a lot of focus among the 183 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: women in my family on stomachs, and reflecting on that, 184 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: now you know the specificity of that with which that 185 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: rose up for me at thirteen. I mean, my god, 186 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: was I not going to, you know, spend decades having 187 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: a seating disorder where I was focused on my stomach 188 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: like it was just it was all, it was all 189 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: right there for me already I assumed that was the 190 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: site of his disgust. Yeah, that's that's so interesting because 191 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: throughout your book you write about hip bones and the 192 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: different variations of emptiness and fullness, and the ideal in 193 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: the midst of your eating disorders being that when you're 194 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: not just lying down but actually standing up, your hip 195 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: bones like a ruler could be put across them, that 196 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: there would be no stomach, you know, kind of in 197 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: the way, which is actually something that I feel so 198 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: many young women contend with in varying degrees. And you know, 199 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I think of eating disorders as like sort of being 200 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: on a slide rule in some way, or there's problematic 201 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: eating or not eating, and then there's a place where 202 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: a switch gets flipped and it becomes dangerous and pernicious. 203 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: I mean, can you talk about the first time that 204 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: that switch that flipped for you? Yeah, I mean I 205 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: think that you're, uh, the analogy of a slide rule 206 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: I think is really smart because um so, I'll mention 207 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: a couple like markers on the slide rule before I 208 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: get to the switch flip. But I mean, I think 209 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: one thing that's important to know is that I was 210 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: always a really kind of restricted eater as a kid, 211 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: and not in a way of limiting calories, although that 212 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: was there too. I went on my first diet when 213 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: I was nine, but I was scared of a lot 214 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: of food. I was the kid who at the birthday 215 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: party wouldn't eat pizza. Um. I didn't like soda. I 216 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: didn't like potato chips. I had a lot of fears 217 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: about tastes. I had a lot of fears that food 218 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: would make me sick. So there was something kind of 219 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: fraud for me with food early on. Another import and 220 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: thing that happened is that I got my period when 221 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: I was ten. Um So, this is in n and 222 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: not a lot of other girls had their periods at ten. 223 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: And not only did I have my period, but I had, 224 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, everything that went along with it. I had 225 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: hips and breasts and waste. And I was profoundly destabilized 226 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: by this. I didn't feel at home in this new body. 227 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: I wanted my old body. And that feeling of wanting 228 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: my old body wasn't something I did something about right away, 229 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: but it was something that kind of haunted me throughout 230 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: my early adolescence. So when I was a sophomore in 231 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: high school, I was fifteen, I got a stomach bug 232 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: over Christmas break and I lost a couple of pounds, 233 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: And at Christmas dinner, I mentioned it to everyone at 234 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: the table. That was the kind of thing women in 235 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: my family mentioned to each other, you know, I lost 236 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: a couple of pounds, and my aunt said, you know, 237 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: it's just waterway, You'll mean it back, but um, I didn't. 238 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: And I found that I liked the feeling of being 239 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: just a little bit lighter. There was something about it 240 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: that felt like an unburdening. I liked the feeling of 241 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: my pants having a little more you know, air inside them, 242 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. I liked the feeling of emptiness, 243 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: and I saw it more of that feeling that I craved. 244 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: And several months later I'd lost my period. I was intorexic, 245 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: and really quickly after that, the anorexia shifted into binge eating, 246 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: which is a really typical trajectory. Though I didn't know 247 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: this at the time, So that switch flipping happens for me, 248 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of fifteen going on sixteen, at the 249 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: very beginning of my junior year of high school. You know, 250 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: at one point you describe a paper that you read 251 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: in article in Psychological bulletin, and it describes binge eating 252 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: as a short term escape from an adversive awareness of self. 253 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: And that was like such a powerful phrase for me. 254 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: I think it could actually describe any number of addictions 255 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: at their root with well short term escape. First of all, 256 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: it's always a short term escape, you know, it's never 257 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: a long term escape um from an adversive awareness of self. 258 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: And you know what you've been describing with that sense 259 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: of the pot bellies of the women in your family 260 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: and the way that women would talk about their bodies 261 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: and your own sense of yourself getting your period at 262 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: the age of ten, is that adversive sense of self 263 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: that just I think like lights up all the switchboards mentally, psychologically, emotionally, 264 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: for you know, I need to turn this down and 265 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: find a way to not feel this or hear this noise. 266 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah, I'm so glad that that line, that 267 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: that sentence spoke to you because it's still to me 268 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,479 Speaker 1: is among the best descriptions of what it is to binge, 269 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: and to some degree with anorexia too, although the quality 270 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: of not eating for me is slightly different than the 271 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: quality of eating too much. But I mean, the thing 272 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: with a binge is that as long as I was eating, 273 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: as long as my hand was on my way to 274 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: my mouth, as long as I was chewing something, I 275 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: didn't have to think about anything. There was only this. 276 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: I didn't have to think about any loss or pain 277 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: or longing. And even when it was over and there 278 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: was kind of a wave of self loathing that still 279 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: prevented me from thinking about anything else other than my 280 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: own disappointment in myself and the first of awareness that 281 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: I was trying to escape. Sure was certainly some of 282 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: it was about body, but but so much of it 283 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: was just about feelings of isolation or inadequacy or flawed 284 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: parts of myself that I didn't want to face, lack 285 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: of connection. A lot of this for me was happening 286 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: in high school and college, so you know, somebody hadn't 287 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: invited me to the party, or I wanted to be 288 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: close to someone who didn't want to be close to me, 289 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: or deeper things I didn't want to face, like my 290 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: parents divorce, things that were hard to look at about 291 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: my father. And then there's also your mother's drinking, which 292 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: runs throughout your teenage years, and then certainly your college 293 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: years becomes more serious as as you're starting to become 294 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: a late teen right mm hmmm. Susan's mom hides her 295 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: drinking and in a way become is a model of 296 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: how to have and maintain a hidden life. Susan's binge 297 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: eating is also very possible for her to maintain in 298 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: secret at this point. After all, she excels academically and 299 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: is admitted to Yale, but her binge eating takes on 300 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: a whole new level of intensity once she's away from 301 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: home and on her own for the first time. It 302 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: was so upsetting to me because I thought that being 303 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: out of my mother's house, being out of that kitchen 304 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: would fix it. That it was so you know, it 305 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: was just it was just habit, it was just setting, 306 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: it was just environment. And getting to Yale and finding 307 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: out very quickly that it wasn't was just devastating. I mean, 308 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: I would wake up in the morning, I would get 309 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: dressed in one of the you know, three elastic waist 310 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: skirts I had that that fit I would put on 311 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: my broken stocks because that was one thing that happened 312 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: in those years was I felt again that I could 313 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: not be myself and I felt I could not be 314 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: kind of a slender perfectionist I had once been because 315 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: I was no longer that girl, and I sort of 316 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: developed this new persona to accommodate my body. I embraced 317 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: being from Boulder. I smoked a lot of pot, which 318 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: I hated. I was. I'm one of the people. Uh 319 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: pot doesn't relax me, it just makes me paranoid. But 320 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 1: I was so you know, disconnected from who I was 321 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: in my own desires that I did it anyway because 322 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: I felt it matched the person I needed to be anyway. 323 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: So so I would, you know, get up, put in 324 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: my elastic waistkirt, my birkenstocks, go to the dining hall 325 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: resolving to you know, eat granola and soy milk. You 326 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: actually develop an alter ego, right, I mean she has 327 00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: a name. Yes, Kasha Susan's alter ego's name is Kasha. 328 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: Susan is small, almost elphin, elegant, delicate. She's intense electric 329 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: as Kasha She wears birken stocks and a knee length skirt, 330 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: and she walks around campus dreamily, spooning ice cream into 331 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: her mouth. She is rubic and dazed, dreamy, an earth 332 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: mama who doesn't care about her size, doesn't even think 333 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: about it. So there's again this kind of attempt to 334 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: put on an identity, to create an identity. And you 335 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: actually you right at one point that Kasha could carry 336 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: the weight like you. Susan couldn't carry the weight, but 337 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Kasha could, right, And you know, I wish, I wish 338 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: i'd know that Susan could carry the weight, and that 339 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: Susan needed to carry the weight. But I was hiding, 340 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, I was hiding who I was, and I 341 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: was hiding the binging. And it was hard to hide 342 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: the midging. I mean, anybody who's been in a college 343 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: dorm situation, the feeling of never having a space to 344 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: myself was so strong in those early days. UM I 345 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: would kind of make my rounds of different food shops 346 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: on campus, and I would almost inevitably wind up on 347 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: the top floor of the stacks in the library with 348 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: kind of whatever. The tail end of the binge was 349 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: usually like a scone in a brown paper bag, and 350 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: then I would sit up at this little steady carol 351 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: beside this little arched window, and I would write. Writing 352 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: for me was a purgative act, kind of this ritual 353 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: purification that almost inevitably followed a binge. And I would 354 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: sit up there and I would read the two eating 355 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: disorder memoirs um that were in the library's collection. Then 356 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: it was, And there are many more eating disorder memoirs now, 357 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: but there were fewer than the librarhead too, and I 358 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: read them over and over again. I felt so isolated 359 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: and so alone, and I found real solace in these 360 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: other women's stories. You also described trying to research eating 361 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: disorders at a certain point in the library and the 362 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: books being constantly checked out. Yeah. I knew I couldn't 363 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: be the only one going through this, but it was 364 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: impossible for me to imagine telling someone, Although that's not 365 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: entirely true. As much as I fantasized about quitting, about 366 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: not binging anymore, I fantasized about telling UM. So I 367 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: was committed to secrecy, but I simultaneously wanted to tell 368 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: so badly. But I only wanted to tell once I 369 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: was over it. I had a very concrete fantasy actually 370 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: about what that would look like. Freshman year of college. 371 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: I would sit in my dorm room and my little 372 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: Macintosh um and I would write letters to best friend 373 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: cheva Um. But the letters were set in the future. 374 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: The letters were written from the me six months Hence, 375 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: I would be in Boulder for the summer and I 376 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: would write to my friend from this future me that 377 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, I'd started attending this eating disorders group, and 378 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: then I would sort of lay out my story, lay 379 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: out what was going on for me. And I wanted 380 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: to tell because and eating disorder, like any addiction, it 381 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: leads to erratic behavior. It leads to guardedness, it leads 382 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: to hiding, that leads to deception, to you know, not 383 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: not telling the whole story. But I also desperately wanted 384 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: to be known and understood and close to people. But 385 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: it was it was too impossible to imagine telling until 386 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: I was over it. And then once I was over it, 387 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: the urge to tell went dormant for a long time. 388 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick a cure for a 389 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. There is such tension in Susan's 390 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: story between longing to be seen and known, but feeling 391 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: completely unable to share her deepest and most shameful secret. 392 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: We can't be known if we don't allow ourselves to 393 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: be open and vulnerable, but our secrets shut us down. 394 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: Susan has a very close friend in high school, Julie, 395 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: who she comes close to telling the truth, but she 396 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: stops herself. The two women lose touch for twenty years, 397 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: and then Susan sees Julie again at a reunion. She's 398 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: now thirty seven years old. Susan thinks of finally telling 399 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: Julie what she had been going through beginning in high school. 400 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: After all, now Susan has a loving family and a 401 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: thriving career, and all this happened so long ago, but 402 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: she's still in shame's guip. That was when I had 403 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: already started work on the book that became empty, on 404 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: the book that tells the story of these eating disorders. 405 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: But it was a very different book. It was meant 406 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: to be a book that intertwined a cultural history of 407 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: the teenage girl with the story of my own adolescence, 408 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: and at that point I had already written a draft 409 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: of it, and a lot of what had wound up 410 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: on the page was about binging, was about my eating disorders. 411 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: But I was too scared at that point to admit 412 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: that that was the book I wanted to write. So 413 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to be able to sit across from jewels, 414 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: you know, with a glass of wine at a table 415 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: at our high school reunion and say any of this. 416 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: And I also wasn't ready to admit to myself that 417 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: this was kind of the story that I needed to 418 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: tell more than any other story. When did you have 419 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: the language for what you were going through? There's anorexia, 420 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: there's bulimia, which involves purging. At one point, you describe 421 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: something that I actually hadn't really considered before, which is 422 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: that excessive exercise, which is something that you engaged in, 423 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: is also a form of purging, the different kind of 424 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: purging than making oneself throw up. You know. It strikes 425 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: me and correct me if I'm wrong about this, But 426 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: it seems like there are places, almost like a Van diagram, 427 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: where eating disorders kind of meat and share certain characteristics 428 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: or become more subtle gradations as opposed to something being 429 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, just clearly like in the d S M 430 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: four this is the diagnosis. It's a good question I mean, 431 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: growing up in the eighties inorexia and bulimia were the ones. 432 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: There were after school specials in first person essays about 433 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: those are the ones. I knew. Binge eating disorder. Yes, 434 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: it had a name. The researchers and psychologists were writing 435 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: about it in academic journals in the early nineties when 436 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: I was searching for information, But I don't think I 437 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: ever would have said I have binge eating disorder. I 438 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: knew the word binge because that was part of bolimia, 439 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: but I wouldn't have been able to say what I had. 440 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: I think I would have described it as it's bolimia, 441 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: but I don't throw up is probably the language I 442 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: would have used. I don't remember the first time I 443 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: saw the term binge eating disorder, but it was very 444 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: clear to me, you know, that that had absolutely described 445 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: my experience. My solution eventually to the binging was to 446 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: quit food, is how I put it in my head. 447 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: That was the way that I addressed it in my 448 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: early twenties, and I became pretty severely interorexic. And once 449 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: I got through that and started menstruating again, and you know, 450 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: went on to have healthy pregnancys and physically healthy adulthood. 451 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have identified myself as anorexic. 452 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: It took me a really long time to get to therapy. 453 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: When I started therapy, I was forty five. I'm forty 454 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: six now. So I started therapy, you know, a little 455 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: over a year and a half ago, and it took 456 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: me a couple of months to look at my diagnosis code. 457 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: I just didn't want to know what it was. And 458 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: when I did, I saw it was anorexia. And my 459 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: first thought was, she doesn't understand. I had this impulse. 460 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to take off all my clothes. I wanted 461 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: to show her like, I'm look at my body, I'm 462 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: not anorexic, which I now understand is first of all, 463 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: a part of the illness is not believing that you're 464 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: thin enough, that you're not intorexic enough. But also, you know, 465 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: even though I was underweight, I didn't look like the 466 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: emaciated kind of feeding to skeletal figure that one often 467 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: imagines when anorexia is a cooked anorexia is the diagnosis 468 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: is no longer tied to, you know, loss of a 469 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: certain percentage of body weight or cessation of the menstrual period. Um, 470 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: it's no longer as tied to size as it was 471 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: and instead describes like a more restrictive style of eating anyway. 472 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: So it's so it took me a long time to 473 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: embrace embrace the language. You can't quit food, and you 474 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: have to learn to make your peace with it, and 475 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: not only to make your piece with it, but hopefully 476 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: to find joy in it and delight in it and 477 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: nourishment and to learn to savor it. And I feel 478 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: like I'm finally at that place. I mean, for so long, 479 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: I just wanted to not be preoccupied by food or 480 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: distracted by food. Um, And now I finally moved to 481 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: the point where I want to love food. I you know, 482 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: I want to take pleasure and food as much attention 483 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: as there was in my family to you know, pot 484 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: bellies and the size of bodies. There was also a 485 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: ton of pleasure and meaning and food. My grandmother, the matriarch, 486 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: she was, she owned the first Queens and Art ever 487 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: made and had been subscribing to Gourmet since the second issue. 488 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: And she was just, you know, a fantastic cook. And 489 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up with a mother who made 490 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: baked bread, so there was always a lot of beauty 491 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: and terror in food. And I feel like I'm at 492 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: the point in my recovery where I'm moving towards the 493 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: beauty part, which is a relief. Were you ever fearful 494 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: for your physical safety, for your well being? Were you 495 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: afraid ever that you were going to die? There was 496 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: a moment where one evening my freshman year of college, 497 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: I was up in the stacks and my regular study Carol, 498 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: And usually after a binge, my heart raced, but this 499 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: as a strange feeling where my heart felt like it 500 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: was slow. It felt like something was retarding it, like 501 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: something was in the way, preventing it from from beating 502 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: at its regular speed. Um, I'd eaten a lot. My 503 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: abdomen was extremely distended. I became scared that my stomach 504 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: was going to explode. And at the same time I 505 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: was having this thought, you know, I was telling myself 506 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: that's not something that human body could do. You would 507 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: throw up first. It's going to be okay, It's going 508 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: to be okay. But it's very frightened. And when I 509 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: went back to my room that night, and you know, 510 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: climbed into my top bunk in my dorm room, I 511 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: just prayed that in the morning I would wake still whole. 512 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: It is true that somebody can eat so much. I 513 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: don't think stomach explode is probably the exact thing that 514 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: can happen. I'm not, yeah, I'm not. I'm not a doctor, 515 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: but you know, it could compress, it could compress something, 516 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: or cut up circulation to your intestines. But that was 517 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: a singular incident. For me. I did often fear that 518 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: I was messing with my health. It's not good for 519 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: anybody to eat thousands of calories at once. My thousands 520 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: of calories. You know, people binge on different things, but 521 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: for me, it was sugar. It often felt like the 522 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: injection of a drug that the body isn't designed to process. 523 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: Like it like it. It felt bad. But but I 524 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: don't think I ever thought that I was going to die. Um, 525 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: except for that that one moment where I was scared. 526 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: I did think that I was, you know, driving my 527 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: life into the ground, and that I was not doing 528 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: good work or being a good person, or a good 529 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: friend or a good daughter, or you know, taking advantage 530 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: of the enormous privilege of Yale education. But that night 531 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: was the only night I ever really felt like I 532 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: might tip over into like real, real peril. I mean, anorexia, 533 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: you know is the far more perilous illness, and you 534 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: know has the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder. 535 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: And I feel very lucky that I climbed out of 536 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: it before things got really bad. We'll be right back. 537 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about the description of addiction from the 538 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: Psychological Bulletin. The language seems so apt, a short term 539 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: escape from an adversive awareness of self. But sometimes the 540 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: short term escape doesn't work, and when that happens, a 541 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: deep and terrible anxiety sets in in the form of 542 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: panic attacks. This happens to Susan halfway through her sophomore 543 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: year at Yale. A hallmark of panic attacks is that 544 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: the person suffering from them doesn't know what they are, 545 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: has no language for what's happening. Panic feels like a 546 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: bottomless chasm. It feels unsurvivable. One evening, when she's home, 547 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: it's so bad that Susan, at the age of nineteen, 548 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: crawls into bed with her mother. I've been experiencing panic attacks. 549 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: It was my sophomore year of college. I didn't know 550 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: what they were until I described them to a psychiatrist. 551 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: I've been I've been seeing on and off at the 552 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: Yale Child Study Center, and I felt so disconnected. I 553 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: mean as one does in a panic attack. I felt 554 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: so disconnected from my surroundings. I felt disconnected from my 555 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: own body. And you know, I think something that is 556 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: common among people who struggle with eating disorders or other 557 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: kinds of addictions is that one thing that is scary 558 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: about uncomfortable feelings, are uncomfortable emotions, is that you think 559 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: they're going to last forever. And that's one thing that 560 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: the substance does. It takes away that uncomfortable feeling that 561 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: you think is going to last forever. So panic attacks 562 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: were especially terrifying for me because I felt like this 563 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: was going to last forever. I was going to feel 564 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: disconnected from my surroundings forever. I was going to feel 565 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: like I was, you know, to use the phrase I 566 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: would have used then, going crazy forever. And one night, 567 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: lying in my bed, I just felt so lost and 568 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: so scared that, you know, I went down the hallway 569 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: to my mother's room. I was nineteen. I knocked on 570 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: her door. Um, I hadn't gone into a room for years. 571 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: She was drinking heavily in those years, and it was 572 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: something I didn't want to see, but I needed her 573 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: so badly that night, and I climbed into bed beside her, 574 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: and you know, there was something so comforting about being 575 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: beside my mother um in that moment, she was the 576 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: one who knew me first and best. And then the 577 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: next day she did something that I really appreciated at 578 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: the time. She gave me a book of essays by 579 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks. And you know, those essays were about people, 580 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: most of whom had some neurological injury, but who saw 581 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: the world in ways that were not typical. And I 582 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: just loved that she hadn't tried to say, oh, nothing's 583 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: wrong with you. By giving me this book of essays, 584 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: she had acknowledged that something might really be wrong, and 585 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: and also showed me that there could be beauty and 586 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: meaning in that and that that was a moment of 587 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: real reunion with my mother, with whom I had had 588 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: a contentious relationship with for the several years prior. Yeah, 589 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you told that story. I think books 590 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: are also where we can so often find ourselves, especially 591 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: those of us who are grappling with secrets, because it's 592 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: impossible to share the secret but in a way it's 593 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: like you're sharing the secret with the book. Yeah, in 594 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: the same way as you were doing your freshman year 595 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: when you were reading the couple of eating disorder memoirs 596 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 1: that were in the you know, the Yale library right right. 597 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: I would wager that books saved Susan as much as 598 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: anything else, from the memoirs she read in the stacks 599 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: of the library to the copy of Oliver Sacks, to 600 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: her own book, the one she wrote in a blaze 601 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: of truth telling, the kind that takes no prisoners, least 602 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: of all oneself, the kind that sets us free. So often, 603 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: I think, possibly even especially with addiction memoirs as a genre, 604 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: there's a sense of having reached the you know, the 605 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: pinnacle of the mountain on the other side of recovery 606 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: and telling a story from there, and that always really 607 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: drives me crazy and also feels like hubris. There's a 608 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: moment near the end where you write, by writing this book, 609 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: I've moved not from illness to recovery, but from secrecy 610 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: to telling. I am in a liminal stage. This is 611 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: a vulnerable position to write from because I know there's 612 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: a lot I still can't see, and that really struck me, Susan, 613 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: because I feel like that's it's the truth. And in 614 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: a way, I felt like you had in mind the 615 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: person struggling who might pick up empty and see herself. 616 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: When I was struggling and found solace in other people's stories, 617 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: the sections I read and reread were always the parts 618 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: where they were struggling, over the parts where they recovered. 619 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: So these illnesses are so isolating, and I just needed 620 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: to know that, um, that I wasn't alone, and that 621 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: was more important to me in that moment than than 622 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: knowing that somebody had come out of it okay. And 623 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: as far as writing that for myself, I just felt 624 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: like I needed to write this book now, and I 625 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: just wanted to be as plain as possible about my 626 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: position as as a narrator. I keep on thinking about 627 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: shame and the silence that is the legacy of shame. 628 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: You went from being unable to tell even the people 629 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: who asked you direct questions to reaching a point where 630 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: you felt ownership of this experience such that you could 631 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: right this story, tell the story in great detail of 632 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: what it is that you've gone through, and what do 633 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: you think gave you the capacity to do this? At 634 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: this point, I mean, I think a couple of things. 635 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: So first, writing was always the way i'd um tried 636 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: to process this aspect of my experience, this this eating stuff, like, 637 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: writing was always my way of understanding it. So in 638 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: that sense, it was very organic. But as far as 639 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: it being a story that I felt like could be 640 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: a book that could be published, it was really my editor, 641 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: Hillary Redman, who encouraged me to do it. I signed 642 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: this a contract to write this book so long ago 643 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: that I went through three editors, and Hillary was my 644 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: third editor, And when she read the manuscript, which was 645 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: sort of a hybrid of the book I had been 646 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: contracted to write a cultural history of the teenage girl 647 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: and then the stuff about my eating disorders, she was like, 648 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: your this is the story. You need to tell the 649 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: story of your eating disorders. And I I still had 650 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: so much shame that I really needed somebody to give 651 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: me permission to say, I see you, I understand you, 652 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: this is what you need to tell. Do it. And 653 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: I think that until then I had felt I felt 654 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: like I couldn't admit that that was the story I 655 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: wanted to tell that I felt like a story about 656 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: an disorder. Somehow wasn't worthy, or that I needed to 657 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: apologize for wanting to tell it. So that was a 658 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: big step. But then, you know, writing, as you know, 659 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: like writing is a very solitary act, and the most 660 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: important thing that writing did was to get me to 661 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: start talking about it. I didn't start going to therapy 662 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 1: until I was done with the manuscript. I didn't tell 663 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,879 Speaker 1: my husband, whom I've known since we were seventeen, we've 664 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: been dating since we were we've been together since we 665 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: were twenty. I didn't tell him about the binge eating 666 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: or about kind of the depth of what I struggled 667 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: with m during my adulthood until I was done with 668 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: the manuscript. So the manuscript was kind of the writing 669 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: was my gateway to talking. What has talking I felt 670 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: like because your husband seems and the way that you 671 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: describe him like a very adorn worrying and open and 672 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: wanting to know, really wanting to know you and questioning 673 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: at various points. You know, when you became too sin, 674 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: when you were in aorexic after um, after you stopped 675 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 1: being cheating, and yet you didn't tell. It's the difference 676 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: between telling, which is this intimacy, and being with oneself 677 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: on the page. What did it feel like when you 678 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: were finally able to do that? I mean, I was 679 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: so scared to tell him because if he had come 680 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: to me and said, you know, after years of knowing you, 681 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: I need to tell you this thing that I've never 682 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: told you before, I mean, I would have a whole 683 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: range of feelings. I might be hurt, I might be scared. 684 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: I hope I would also have compassion and sensitivity. But 685 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know how he would react. And I remember 686 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: the night it was um one of my elder son 687 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: was at his first concert. He was at his first 688 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: rock concert, and our younger son was like in the 689 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: bathtub and he had the tub on really loud. So 690 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: I felt like there was privacy in space. And we 691 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: sat down at the table, the dinner table, and I 692 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: told him it wasn't a surprise to him that I 693 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: struggled with. I mean, obviously, like issues around control and 694 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: food and being too thin, like that stuff had totally 695 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: come up during our marriage. But the binging to me 696 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: was this deep secret that revealed, you know, that I 697 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: had so much shame about and that revealed me to be, 698 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, somebody. I didn't want him to see me 699 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: as and and that night when I told him, you know, 700 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: I think initially he was confused. He didn't know what 701 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: binge eating was, and at that point I had very 702 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: little experience talking about it, and I felt sort of 703 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: inept and tripping over my words and speaking in half sentences. 704 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until he read the manuscript that he understood. 705 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: And I will say, you know, it's going to sound 706 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: like a cliche, but it has been really transformative. Like 707 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: I said, we have known each other for so long, 708 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 1: but there is just this amazing new vulnerability and a 709 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 1: desire to tell him more and for him to say 710 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 1: more to me. I don't recommend keeping a secret from 711 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: your partner for decades, but in its wake, it feels 712 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: like a really special time for us. Now I feel 713 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: really fortunate about that. Family Secrets is an iHeart media production. 714 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer and Bethan Michaluso is 715 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: the executive producer. We'd also like to give a special 716 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: thanks to Tyler Klang and Tristan McNeil. If you have 717 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share, leave us a 718 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. 719 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight secret zero, that's secret and 720 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: then the number zero. You can also find us on 721 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook at facebook dot com 722 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 1: slash Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Family Secrets Pot. 723 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 724 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 725 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.