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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

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Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of iHeart Media, Stuff Media,

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Speaker 1: or its employees. It's so warm and conquered tonight that

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Speaker 1: people have their doors and windows open, but the police

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Speaker 1: are saying lock up tight. Sacramento's infamous East Area rapist

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Speaker 1: may still be in town. He raped a twenty nine

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Speaker 1: year old housewife near the Ignacio Valley shopping Center at

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Speaker 1: five thirty this morning. Her husband was tied up nearby

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Speaker 1: and had to listen. When you look at what the

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Speaker 1: East Area rapist was doing, he committed fifteen attacks where

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Speaker 1: he's predominantly going into houses. Women would be asleep inside

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Speaker 1: their houses. Sometimes these were mothers and their kids were

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Speaker 1: another room. This is a retired forensic scientist and cold

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Speaker 1: case investigator, Paul Holmes. He spent over twenty years obsessively

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Speaker 1: searching for the Golden State Killer, who was also known

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Speaker 1: as the East Area Rapist, the Vassilia Ransacker, and the

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Speaker 1: Original night Stalker. One man thought to be responded for

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Speaker 1: over fifty rates and a dozen murders in northern California,

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Speaker 1: and he would always have a ski mask on. He

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Speaker 1: would go to these women as are laying asleep in

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Speaker 1: the bed, get them flipped over toward their face down,

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Speaker 1: and tie their hands behind their back. As he's doing this,

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Speaker 1: he's talking through clenched teeth and telling them you need

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Speaker 1: to do what I say or I'm gonna kill you.

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Speaker 1: He planned his attacks, he employed solid tactics. He often

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Speaker 1: would have approached the house from one direction and leave

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Speaker 1: the house in a different directions, so if there were

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Speaker 1: witnesses seeing him coming, they didn't see him going, or

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Speaker 1: vice versa. He would park his car many blocks away.

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Speaker 1: During the canvas, of course, law enforcement is going out

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Speaker 1: and talking to neighbors and hey, did you see any

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Speaker 1: strange vehicles parked out front? Nobody ever really saw his

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Speaker 1: vehicle because it was so parked, so far away, so

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Speaker 1: very tactically sound. A man in a mask robbed, tied,

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Speaker 1: and stabbed them, leaving them for dad. Subjects stated, I

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Speaker 1: want to report a murder, no a double murder. I

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Speaker 1: did it. A man who wore an evil style executioner's hood,

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Speaker 1: carried a knife and gun and intended to use them.

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Speaker 1: They have an arrestipe because they can't cove it, I'm

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Speaker 1: not damn Zodiac? Who is the Zodiac and where is he?

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Speaker 1: From My Heart Radio, How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This is Monster the Zodiac Killer. How investigators solve cases

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Speaker 1: is constantly changing with improved technology. The most recent game

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Speaker 1: changer forensic genealogy. The technique uses a mix of genetics

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Speaker 1: and family trees. It's helps solve a growing list of

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Speaker 1: decades olds. The capture of the alleged Golden State Killer

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Speaker 1: has made forensic geneology famous, and it's this case has

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Speaker 1: breathed new life into the hunt for the Zodiac Killer.

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Speaker 1: For several years, Paul Holes had almost no success with

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Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer case. Every suspect and every tip

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Speaker 1: would eventually lead to a dead end. It wasn't until

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Speaker 1: Holes was working a completely separate case that ended up

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Speaker 1: connecting to another case that he encountered. Forensic genealogy holds

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Speaker 1: takes us back to the very beginning of that sequence

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Speaker 1: with the murder of unsuon June. She was killed by

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend Larry Vanner in February at two thousand seventeen,

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Speaker 1: this is that five months after my last prime suspect

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Speaker 1: was eliminated I'm in the doldrums, but I have a

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Speaker 1: conference call in another case that I had been involved with.

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Speaker 1: It was a two thousand and two homicide and Asian

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Speaker 1: female had been bludged to death, buried underneath her house

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Speaker 1: with kitty litter piled on top of her. We had

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Speaker 1: always referred to it as a kitty letter case. And

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Speaker 1: very quickly after this case, her living boyfriend, Larry Vanner,

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Speaker 1: had been arrested. Larry Vanner was interesting in that we

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Speaker 1: can never identify really who he was. Larry Vanner wasn't

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Speaker 1: his real name. He had ten different names and we

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell which one he had been given at birth.

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Speaker 1: He had many different birthdays that he had given law

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Speaker 1: enforcement over the years, different social Security numbers. He was

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Speaker 1: a mystery man. Then investigators connected Larry Vanner to a

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Speaker 1: different case, the bear Brook murders, and it was on

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Speaker 1: this case that Paul Hols learned how forensic genealogy could work.

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Speaker 1: It was two fifty five gallon barrels, one found another

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Speaker 1: found in two thousand and one. Barrel was an adult

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Speaker 1: female and a little girl, and the other barrel was

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Speaker 1: two little girls. So that was a family that had

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Speaker 1: been killed. But the other child in that second barrel

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Speaker 1: wasn't related to this family. Well, through d n A,

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Speaker 1: they showed that that other child was a biological child

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Speaker 1: of Larry Vanner and then ultimately he's caught killing unsun

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Speaker 1: June in two thousand and two in Contracost County. Amazing case.

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Speaker 1: But I'm going I got to figure out how this

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Speaker 1: technique has done. How can I use this to catch

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Speaker 1: the East Air rapist a k a. The Golden State Killer.

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Speaker 1: Forensic genealogy is a layered technique. At the base, it's

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Speaker 1: a map of an individual's DNA profile. Private genealogy companies

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Speaker 1: begin selling personal genetic profiles in the early eighties. At

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Speaker 1: the time, it was a niche market, but it's grown

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Speaker 1: in popularity in recent years. One of these companies, twenty

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Speaker 1: three and Me, now both surround five million customers worldwide.

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Speaker 1: So the team and I visited their headquarters to learn

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Speaker 1: more about their product. My name is Kate Black. I'm

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Speaker 1: the global Privacy Officer and Senior council at twenty three

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Speaker 1: and Me. Twenty three and Me is a consumer genetics

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Speaker 1: testing service, so anybody can order a test online, spit

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Speaker 1: in a tube. It's quite a large bit of spit.

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Speaker 1: It takes about thirty minutes to fill up the whole tube,

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Speaker 1: send that off in the mail to one of our laboratories,

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Speaker 1: and then within usually eight weeks, get a account rich

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Speaker 1: with reports and information about their DNA selves, everything from

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Speaker 1: ancestry like your ethnicity breakdown where your ancestors were from,

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Speaker 1: as well as some health and wellness related information like traits,

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Speaker 1: how you may respond or react to caffeine consumption, and

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Speaker 1: more of the serious health results like whether or not

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Speaker 1: you have the genes associated with late onset Alzheimer's. Our

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Speaker 1: mission is really to give people you know, full access

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Speaker 1: to understand their genetics and their genetic self, and that

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Speaker 1: absolutely requires an enormous amount of trust in us. As

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Speaker 1: a brand and a company, we take privacy very seriously.

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Speaker 1: We want to make sure that we are not only

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Speaker 1: upholding our own kind of ethical standards and privacy requirements,

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Speaker 1: but also that we're meeting the expectations of our customers

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Speaker 1: and understanding that they're not just a customer or data point.

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Speaker 1: They're really a person with a variety of different things

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Speaker 1: that may have brought them to us, and that we

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Speaker 1: can fulfill that journey for them in a way that

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Speaker 1: won't be surprising or unnerving or have unintended consequences. Around

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Speaker 1: the same time, twenty three and me got its start,

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Speaker 1: so did forensic genealogy. I think DNA is the most

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Speaker 1: conclusive evidence we hang out at the moment. This is

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Speaker 1: Colleen Fitzpatrick, owner and founder of Identifyingders International. It's a

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Speaker 1: company that uses DNA for a number of sir. This

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Speaker 1: is including finding missing persons in assisting law enforcement. If

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Speaker 1: anyone knows about DNA, it's her. Well. I'm the founder

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Speaker 1: of modern forensic genealogy. I wrote the book, and when

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book in two thousand five, it created

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Speaker 1: a revolution. It went forward into the forensic community itself

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Speaker 1: to mean the application of genealogical techniques and support of

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Speaker 1: the legal system. At first, I was having fun with

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Speaker 1: the hobby side, identifying old photographs, helping people look at

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Speaker 1: their records and squeezed juice out of them that they

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was there. But then because of my

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Speaker 1: science background, I was starting to be hired for some

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Speaker 1: real cases, some really interesting cases. I was contacted by

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Speaker 1: the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory to help them identify

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Speaker 1: a frozen human arm and hand in a glacier, Alaska,

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Speaker 1: and that became the hand in the Snow case, which

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Speaker 1: I was very important in solving. And then from there,

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Speaker 1: you know, went into the Titanic Baby and Amelia. Ever

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Speaker 1: at those kind of cases became you know, really more

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Speaker 1: accessible and interesting with DNA developments. I worked about seventy

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Speaker 1: cases in thirty countries and I got almost all of them.

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Speaker 1: Paul Hole has learned about forensic genealogy during the bare

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Speaker 1: Brooks case and he used the technique to catch the

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Speaker 1: alleged Golden State Killer. But how exactly does the process work?

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Speaker 1: We gave him a call. What we were working with

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Speaker 1: was a semen sample off of the victim's vaginal swab.

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Speaker 1: Right there. The DNA that we're interested in is contained

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Speaker 1: within the sperm heads of the semen and it's mixed

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Speaker 1: with the females d NA. So now you need to

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Speaker 1: have a law enforcement lab, those forensic analysts who are

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Speaker 1: very well versed at this process. You need them to

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Speaker 1: go in and separate out the Golden State Killers sperm

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Speaker 1: DNA from all the victims DNA that's on that vaginal swap.

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Speaker 1: Once the Golden State Killers DNA was isolated, it was

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Speaker 1: sent to a private lab, and at the lab, a

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Speaker 1: SNIP profile was created. SNIP profile s n P for

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Speaker 1: single nucleotide polymorphism just basically a a testing process that

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Speaker 1: looks at hundreds of thousands of single points of DNA

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Speaker 1: across the genome in order to kind of map the

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Speaker 1: genome out in a partial way. Turnaround time can be

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Speaker 1: anywhere from two weeks to two months, depending on the lab.

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Speaker 1: Hole says it's still faster than some forensic labs, which

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Speaker 1: can get caught in backlogs. The information is then uploaded

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Speaker 1: into jet match, a public online database that compiles info

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Speaker 1: from multiple DNA sites. Jet Match also shows relationships between

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Speaker 1: DNA profiles. That's because the original purpose of jed match

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Speaker 1: was for people to research genealogy and build family trees,

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Speaker 1: but since it's public, it also means law enforcement can

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Speaker 1: use any of this data in their investigations. Jed match

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Speaker 1: tells you it takes generally twenty four to eight hours

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Speaker 1: for their servers to an essence to the algorithms I

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Speaker 1: found with the Golden State killer that within twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours after upload, I had my initial search results. How

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Speaker 1: closely or distantly are related is dependent on how much

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Speaker 1: DNA you share. Our top results only shared less than

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Speaker 1: one percent of their DNA, which was on the order

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Speaker 1: of roughly a third cousin. From here, traditional genealogy work

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Speaker 1: kicks in, like hunting down birth certificates and death records

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Speaker 1: to trace family lineage. There's five of us on our

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Speaker 1: team on the law enforcement side, and then we had

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Speaker 1: the genetic genealogist Barbara ray Venter, who was the one

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Speaker 1: who was kind of guiding us. The five of us

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Speaker 1: were the ones that were really building the trees, and

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Speaker 1: Barbara was kind of, you know, checking in the tree

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Speaker 1: that we ultimately linked together where we found to the

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Speaker 1: Golden State killer, Joseph de'angelo um. You know, the common

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Speaker 1: ancestors had been born in the eighteen forties. Once we

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Speaker 1: started identifying all their descendants, that family tree very you know,

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Speaker 1: quickly grew to having well over a thousand individuals entered

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Speaker 1: into this tree. Most of them were long dead because

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Speaker 1: they're just ancestors. But you have to identify everybody. You

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Speaker 1: don't want to miss the one person who could potentially

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Speaker 1: be the parent of your offender. It took us four

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Speaker 1: and a half months, you know, from the time we

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Speaker 1: got the initial DNA search results to the time that

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Speaker 1: de Angelo was taken into custody. Holes is adamant that

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Speaker 1: this genealogy provides an investigative lead. He says, once a

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Speaker 1: suspect is identified, law enforcement still needs to secure a

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Speaker 1: direct DNA sample. Then that direct sample is compared to

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Speaker 1: the original sample used in the forensic genealogy process. This

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Speaker 1: is done in case an error was made while building

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Speaker 1: out the family tree with the Angelo. Even though we

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Speaker 1: kind of identified him, he has some circumstantial evidence that

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Speaker 1: seemed to corroborate that he could be the guy. It

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Speaker 1: was like he got to get that direct DNA sample,

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Speaker 1: So he was put under surveillance and then the first

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Speaker 1: DNA sample was collected and it was enough to basically

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Speaker 1: tell us he's the guy, but we needed to get

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Speaker 1: a second sample due to some of the complexities of

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Speaker 1: the first sample. The second sample left no doubt he

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Speaker 1: matched to the Golden State Killer's DNA. As I was

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Speaker 1: working through this case, I'm looking to see while is

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Speaker 1: there DNA had this newf angle DNA technology, and I

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Speaker 1: was able to find three cases out in Contracost the

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Speaker 1: county that still had evidence the DNA evidence that have

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Speaker 1: been collected from the women's bodies from back in the day,

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Speaker 1: and I was able to get DNA from each of

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Speaker 1: those three cases, and and the DNA profile from those

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Speaker 1: three cases was the same. I'm sitting at p F

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Speaker 1: Chang's and Kirk Campbell from Zack d A's office calls me.

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Speaker 1: And Kirk opens up by saying, Paul, you absolutely cannot

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Speaker 1: tell anybody this. So immediately I knew, Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a different phone call. And then he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the lab has, but they're

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Speaker 1: really excited. And I was asking him more, what did

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Speaker 1: they tell you? What did they say? They said, well,

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Speaker 1: they got a partial DNA profile, something about twenty markers,

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Speaker 1: like it's m Kirk, it's head. And so now we're

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Speaker 1: sitting in our rental cheap Cherokee and the p F

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Speaker 1: Chang's parking lot. It's it's an oh my god type

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Speaker 1: of mo moment. And then Steve Kramer, my partner from

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Speaker 1: the FBI, calls and he's on speaker in the jeeps,

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Speaker 1: so my wife is hearing Steve and I now strategizing

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Speaker 1: about what are the next steps and what are we

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Speaker 1: going to do? Now? Do I need to get on

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Speaker 1: the next flight out of here. For over forty years,

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Speaker 1: countless victims have waited for justice. Yesterday, in arrest warrant

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Speaker 1: was issued, a complaint was filed charging that individual with

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Speaker 1: two counts of murder. The answer was and always was

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Speaker 1: going to be in the d N A April, authorities

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Speaker 1: arrest and charge seventy two year old Joseph James D'Angelo

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Speaker 1: with eight counts of first degree murder. As of this recording,

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Speaker 1: he's on trial for the crimes attributed to the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer. Since d'angelo's arrest, almost two dozen other cases

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Speaker 1: have been solved with the help of forensic genealogy, and

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Speaker 1: that number is steadily climbing. However, this new technique is

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Speaker 1: already stirring debate. Most people, of course that are are

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Speaker 1: against it. It's a privacy concern Fourth Amendment unreasonable search

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Speaker 1: against their genetic information. People in the genealogy databases did

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Speaker 1: not explicitly consent to allow law enforcement to search their

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Speaker 1: genealogy DNA profiles in order to help solve a case.

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Speaker 1: Companies like twenty three and Me and Ancestry have policies

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Speaker 1: to keep law enforcement from directly accessing their private databases,

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Speaker 1: but for public databases like jet match, there aren't any

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Speaker 1: laws regulating searches. There's a lot of people out there that,

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Speaker 1: of course, are are very upset about law enforcement utilizing

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Speaker 1: this tool. But I think because of the kinds of

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Speaker 1: cases that are being solved with it, that there's a

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Speaker 1: balance in terms of people's perception society's acceptance of the

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Speaker 1: tool being used. Paul Holes says, what people are afraid

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Speaker 1: law enforcement has access to is very different compared to

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Speaker 1: what they actually have access to. I never had access

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Speaker 1: to anybody's DNA profile the database and ordered for me

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Speaker 1: to see their genetic information. For me to kind of

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Speaker 1: invade their genetic privacy, I have to have access to

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Speaker 1: their DNA profile and I never had that. All I

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Speaker 1: got were search results of people who shared a percentage

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Speaker 1: of DNA, and the results only tell me how much

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Speaker 1: DNA they shared. Still, some privacy advocates are worried that

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Speaker 1: this technique will cause more innocent people to be targeted

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Speaker 1: as possible suspects. At least that's the reasoning behind a

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Speaker 1: bill Maryland lawmakers introduced in January. If it passes, it

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Speaker 1: would completely block Maryland law enforcements ability to use forensic genealogy.

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Speaker 1: More specifically, investigators would be banned from using DNA databases

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Speaker 1: to identify unknown DNA found at crime scenes, but Paul

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Speaker 1: Hols argues forensic genealogy is less invasive than typical police work.

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Speaker 1: Through the use of genealogy in the Golden State Killer case,

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Speaker 1: we saved hundreds of men from having the government take

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Speaker 1: possession of their DNA. Considering traditional law enforcement investigations, we

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Speaker 1: were having women calling in saying, you know, my ex

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Speaker 1: husband looks like this hand drawn sketch of the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer from eight I think he might be the guy.

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Speaker 1: And then we would go on to her ex husband's house,

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Speaker 1: knock on his door, and actually asked for his DNA.

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Speaker 1: We took possession of his DNA sample. Through the use

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Speaker 1: of genealogy in the Golden State Killer case, we saved

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Speaker 1: hundreds of men from having the government take possession of

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Speaker 1: their DNA. As though it is, it's sort of that

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Speaker 1: balancing act of Okay, yeah, we're searching a genealogy database

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Speaker 1: where identifying people who are relatives based on their DNA,

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Speaker 1: But the intrusion is is minuscule compared to how legally

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Speaker 1: law enforcement works. Every single day across the nation. Holes

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Speaker 1: also argues forensic genealogy isn't a tool to be used regularly.

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Speaker 1: Use it on your homicide cases, your your sexual assault,

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Speaker 1: your serial sexual assault cases, or if you have that

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Speaker 1: active public safety threat. You know, this guy has killed somebody,

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Speaker 1: you don't know who he is, he's left his DNA,

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Speaker 1: and he is out there potentially going to kill other people.

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Speaker 1: And that it's that's the type of thing where you

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Speaker 1: bring in this tool sort of as the last resort.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like, you know, you think of it

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Speaker 1: as as the nuclear weapon, and you go and you

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Speaker 1: try to figure out who this guy is using the

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Speaker 1: genealogy in order to get him in custody before can

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Speaker 1: rape and or kill somebody else. Holes does see where

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Speaker 1: concerns could rise if law enforcement expands its use into

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Speaker 1: everyday crimes. I think that's where you'll see sort of

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Speaker 1: the balance shift where people are going to start getting

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it, and that's where you know legislation will

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Speaker 1: come in and restrict law enforcements use. But Holes says,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, people who are decision

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Speaker 1: makers need to understand what the investigative genealogy technique is

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Speaker 1: and what it isn't before they pass laws based on perception.

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Speaker 1: In the spring of confirmed Zodiac letters were sent to

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Speaker 1: a lab for DNA testing. The hope is to pull

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Speaker 1: enough DNA for a full genetic profile and then use

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Speaker 1: that profile for forensic genealogy. This isn't the first time

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Speaker 1: law enforcement has turned to DNA for answers. In the

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Speaker 1: Zodiac case, the prime suspect, Arthur Lee Allen, died in

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Speaker 1: August of authorities seized that opportunity to preserve some brain

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Speaker 1: tissue for further testing. This is Zodiac expert Michael Butterfield.

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Speaker 1: Several years later, in the late nineteen nineties, the San

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Speaker 1: Francisco Police Department submitted suspected Zodiac communications to the crime

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Speaker 1: lab for DNA analysis. According to retired Inspector Vince Rippetto,

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Speaker 1: DNA was found on a Zodiac communication and that DNA

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Speaker 1: did not match Arthur Lee Allen. Several years later, in

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Speaker 1: two thousand two, San Francisco Police inspectors Mike Maloney and

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Speaker 1: Kelly Carroll submitted suspected Zodiac communications to the crime lab

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Speaker 1: for further DNA testing. Dr Cindy Holt of the San

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Speaker 1: Francisco Police DNA lab examined the Zodiac letters and envelopes,

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Speaker 1: and she stated that a partial genetic profile was found

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Speaker 1: on an envelope sent with the Zodiac communication in November

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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. According to Holt, that sample was

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Speaker 1: sufficient to exclude suspects, but not sufficient to positively identify anyone. However,

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Speaker 1: some critics didn't believe law enforcement had found a partial

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Speaker 1: DNA profile. They believed it was all for show. I

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Speaker 1: was shown the DNA profile that they obtained when I

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Speaker 1: went out to San Francisco p D at one time,

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Speaker 1: so I saw what they actually got. So they did

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Speaker 1: get a low level DNA profile, but hold says there

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Speaker 1: were other concerns as well. There's no confidence that you

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Speaker 1: could say was actually the offender's DNA. If the Zodiac,

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Speaker 1: for example, licked the stamps, licked these envelope flaps of

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Speaker 1: the letters that he sent in, why can't they get

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Speaker 1: his DNA. But you also have to be concerned about, well,

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Speaker 1: whose DNA is actually on those items they're sent in

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Speaker 1: after the fact, they're not present at the crime scene

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Speaker 1: where you know the offender wasn't at I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: an old time BLO detective. He had some involvement in

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Speaker 1: Zodiac back in the day, and he goes, you know,

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Speaker 1: I remember growing up, you know, as a kid going

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Speaker 1: into the post office to mail letter back in the

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Speaker 1: late sixties, and you hand the guy an open envelope,

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Speaker 1: but he would lick the envelope and he would lick

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Speaker 1: the stamp. Well, who's to say that didn't happen with

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Speaker 1: these particular envelopes and stamps that were sent in, right,

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Speaker 1: So how can we say for sure that if they

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Speaker 1: do get DNA from the secondary or peripheral items of evidence,

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Speaker 1: that it's actually Zodiac DNA. I would have greater confidence

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Speaker 1: if they get the same DNA profile from multiple items

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Speaker 1: like that, then it looks like it's probably the originator

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Speaker 1: of that evidence versus a secondary person that handled that evidence.

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Speaker 1: I sure would like to see primary evidence in the

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Speaker 1: Zodiac case produced a DNA profile. Well, with DNA, you

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Speaker 1: never know, you just never know, and you never know

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Speaker 1: the power of your what you're testing is. But if

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a degraded, a low level sample, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can be surprised. This is Colleen Fitzpatrick again. One

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Speaker 1: of the cases she worked on was the so called

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Speaker 1: Unknown Child of the Titanic. We had to do multiple

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Speaker 1: rounds of testing on that. We really didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of DNA to start with, and at the end

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Speaker 1: somebody told me or my understanding was there was enough

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Speaker 1: DNA for one cell of that child's body left and

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Speaker 1: that's what did the trick. So that was using ninety

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Speaker 1: year old, nine year old DNA that had been in

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Speaker 1: the ground in Halifax, Nova Scotia and had been exposed

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Speaker 1: to acid rain for as long as that's been around,

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Speaker 1: and yet there was enough DNA in that baby, a

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Speaker 1: baby's body to make the identify action. Here's another example

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Speaker 1: of degraded and contaminated DNA that was still usable. We

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Speaker 1: had Buckskin Girl under the DNA dough project. That was

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Speaker 1: from a blood sample that was thirty seven years old.

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Speaker 1: It had been doped with hepperine to keep it from coagulating,

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Speaker 1: and it had not been refrigerated for thirty seven years,

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Speaker 1: and it worked like a charm. So you know, when

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Speaker 1: you don't think it's gonna work, it does. So you

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Speaker 1: never can tell with DNA, and with the zodiac and

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Speaker 1: the stamps, you never can tell is worth trying. We

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Speaker 1: wanted to know more about these stamps does a small

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Speaker 1: amount of saliva typically provide a good DNA sample? This

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Speaker 1: really interesting question. I don't think there's enough data in

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Speaker 1: recent months to say one way or the other. I'd

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Speaker 1: say definitely maybe, because again you never know. You know,

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Speaker 1: I know I had talked to a lab extensively at

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Speaker 1: one time about somebody, I'll grab a coffee cop can

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Speaker 1: you get the DNA off that? But basically they said

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Speaker 1: that's a low probability, high risk, whereas if you had

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00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: DNA like from fingernails or under fingernails, that was a

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00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: higher chance in a lower risk. And I think this

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00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: stamp is probably medium because you never can tell where

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Speaker 1: the stamp has been. As Paul Hole has said earlier,

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Speaker 1: it takes more than DNA for these cases to be solved.

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Speaker 1: But I'd like to point out that nobody is really

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Speaker 1: just convicted on DNA evidence. Even if the DNA matches,

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00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: there's other things that come in, like, you know, was

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Speaker 1: the guy in that area? You know? Did he have

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Speaker 1: a criminal record, did he leave fingerprints? Is that his shirt?

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00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: Is that his a tennis shoe size? There's a lot

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Speaker 1: to it. It's not just DNA. Now at eleven, the

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Speaker 1: new hunt for the Zodiac Killer. Tonight, Bay Area police

415
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Speaker 1: may have found the key to finally cracking the case.

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Speaker 1: Good Evening, I'm Elizabeth cut and I'm Kendasita first the

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Speaker 1: suspected Golden State Killer because the Zodeiac Killer be next

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Speaker 1: KPI X five Andrea Boorba joins us from the newsroom

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Speaker 1: with the decades old evidence getting new attention Tonight, Andrea

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Speaker 1: well Ken Elizabeth the Zodiac Killer is responsible for at

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Speaker 1: least five murders in the late sixties and early seventies. Tonight,

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Speaker 1: the case that was considered all but unsolvable may have

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Speaker 1: new legs. The Zodiac Killer, who's killing spree in ciphers

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00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: around the Bay Area draw worldwide attention to this day,

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Speaker 1: maybe weeks away from being unmasked. The Sacramento Bea reports

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Speaker 1: that Ballejo police have submitted letters and envelopes from the

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Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer to a private lab to obtain a DNA

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Speaker 1: profile the hope that those envelopes he looked closed years

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Speaker 1: ago might be the final piece to crack the case.

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Speaker 1: The lead Ballejo detective in the Zodiac case told the

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00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: Sacramento be he hopes to use the same open source

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00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: DNA database technique that helped identify Joseph D'Angelo as the

433
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: suspect in the Golden State Killer case. Now, those DNA

434
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: results are expected in a few weeks. In the newsroom

435
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: Entrea four, But KPIs it's been almost a year since

436
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: investigators sent the Zodiac's letters to a lab for DNA testing. Well,

437
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: this is promising. It's been hard for us to find

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00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: much new information. Here's Officer Ryan rails Back of the

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00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: Riverside Police Department. This case is still technically open even

440
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: though it occurred back fifty years ago. Plus it is

441
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: still open because it hasn't been solved. We haven't had

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00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: any real updates on this case in many years. And

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00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: here's Lieutenant Joseph Kono Fileo Police Department's Detective Division commander.

444
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: The case is open, so yeah, we will. We will

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00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: not release specifics regards to where we are just because of,

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00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, obviously the investigative integrity of the case. San

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00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: Francisco reporter Kevin Fagan rodan or dticle about the Zodiac

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00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: for the fiftieth anniversary in December. In it, an anonymous

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00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: police source says, quote, with the Golden State Killer, they

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00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: had a full strand of DNA not Zodiac. We have

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00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: chrons and not good ones end quote. Paul Holes agrees

452
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: the critical step in that case is they need to

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00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: find DNA from the Zodiac as of you know, the

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00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: best information and the most recent information I have. They

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00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: were still looking. Everybody's saying, oh, investigative genealogy is going

456
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: to solve Zodiac. Well, first you have to have the

457
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: Zodiac's DNA as of you know, the information that I know,

458
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: and it's dated. They hadn't recovered that yet. And as

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00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: for the DNA found in the early two thousand's, Paul

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00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: Holes explains, it's the same problem. What I saw was

461
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: it was so scrappy that I probably with DNA interpretations

462
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: today that they may not even be allowed to use

463
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: such a low level DNA profile for comparison purposes. It's

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00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: so low level. Is it due to some environmental contamination

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00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: either on the outside and the surface of the stamp?

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00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: Somebody has handled it during the DNA testing process itself

467
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: and has nothing to do with the Zodiacs DNA. They

468
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: need to get a better sample, in my opinion, than

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00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: what they actually obtained back in the day. Holes is

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00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: talking about federal regulations placed on testing DNA the FBI

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00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: and the Scientific Oversight Committee governs all forensic testing labs

472
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: UH and how they do their DNA testing and how

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00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: they interpret the DNA results, And in many ways, it's

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00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: to help standardize the interpretation of these DNA profiles that

475
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: often are very complex, and so over time these interpretation

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00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: sidelines have become more and more strict because just you know, I,

477
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: you know, learning from real life case examples, they solved

478
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: where the more lax interpretation guidelines could cause misinterpretations to occur,

479
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: and so they said, we can't have that, and we

480
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: need to be as conservative as possible because we don't

481
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: want to falsely incriminate somebody by misinterpreting a DNA result.

482
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: Investigators have been working on this case for decades. Everyone

483
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: wants to see it solved, but ultimately everything hinges on

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00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: the DNA. If they find a Zodiac d n A,

485
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: then it becomes a solvable case. If they don't find

486
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: his DNA, the chances of it being solved become almost zero.

487
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: Next time, un Monster Zoe yet killer. And of course

488
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: there's been theories over the years that they invented the

489
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: zodiac to sell more newspapers. Send the letter to the

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00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: paper he said to prove that I was it kills him.

491
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: I'll tell you only things that I know and the police. No.

492
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: But if you go through and read the police, of course,

493
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: it's almost verbatim on what the police said and the

494
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: police of courts, and exactly what I heard the police

495
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: say on the radio that night. Popular culture about serial

496
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: killers is not dedicated to making us ask difficult questions. Instead,

497
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: it gives us easy answers. That's what we find appealing

498
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: about it. There's nothing fun about Earnie and you know,

499
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: wacky ciphers and letters that you know taunt and say,

500
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: I like hunting the most dangerous game. Yeah, great, the

501
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: guy belongs to freaking prison. If I could go back

502
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: and give myself some advice when I was first starting out,

503
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: be skept to goal of everything. Monster the Zodiac Killer

504
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: is a fifteen episode podcast produced by I Heart Radio,

505
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Albright and I

506
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producers

507
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: Meredith Stepman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason Hope is

508
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works, along with

509
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Kybrick, and Josh Thane

510
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick is our host.

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00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. If you

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00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: haven't already, make sure to check out the first season

513
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta child murders

514
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: from the late seventies to the early eighties. Download the

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00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: ten episode season right now. Have questions or comments, email

516
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: us at Monster at how stuff works dot com, or

517
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: you can call us at one eight three three two,

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00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: eat five six six six seven. Thanks for listening. H