WEBVTT - Ep. 303: All Up In Your Airspace 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten and in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.360 You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.840 versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:36.080 for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. All right, everybody, 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.800 we got a ton to cover today. Papa Yanni's in town. 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.800 Jannice is dadd Yannese is in town, and uh, how 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:44.239 are you doing over there? What are you doing in town? 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.040 Why are you in town? I came to visit my 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.360 grandkids and my son daughter in law, kind of check 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.440 out things. I'm getting ready to move here, hopefully within 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.080 the year. Yeah, I'm trying to sell my house. I 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.200 told Katie that the house will be up for sale, 0:00:58.240 --> 0:00:59.520 so you guys, if you want to move back to 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:04.319 Michigan places. She liked the house, and she told me 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:05.920 about a lot of times that she was there that 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.480 I wasn't there. Do you wind up oh like partying 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.760 over there? That you can't have the same house now 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.160 that my wife used to party and that as a 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.839 high schooler, I think so, yeah, more than what actually 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.520 two houses? Why? Because I mean, I think it was 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.360 more at his other house, his house prior to that. Yeah, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:28.720 but she was telling me about being out on the 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.440 pond with you in the paddle boat we used to fish. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.000 He lives on like a I don't know, ten acre, Like, yeah, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.360 I got a good large amouth bass fishing. So you 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:45.280 knew Steve's wife in high school. That's why I'm here today. Uh, 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.360 like if you had when So when you're hanging around 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.880 Johannest and his lovely children, right, are you all the 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.840 time kind of like like biting your tongue because you 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.880 don't like the job he's doing, you know, and you 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.600 do it different or do you kind of like how 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.800 his whole families grew. He's going to go into the 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.960 spield to congratulate you guys on ten years. That's a 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.200 big deal in business. Oh yeah, But I want to 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.040 talk about his job as I think he's doing a 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.120 great job. So when you're over there, you're digging what 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.280 you're seeing in terms of how he's running the whole 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.680 program with the family and everything. Oh with the family, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.400 I thought you were talking about meat eater. No, the family, Oh, absolutely, absolutely? 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.120 Oh yeah, I think uh I even get some tips 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.040 from him on like, you know, don't leave the male 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.520 thing out of it. So you do you feel that 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:35.639 he is uh doing better than you did? Oh hundred 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:41.120 some really? Oh yeah, because is red right now. He's 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.160 literally turning red. He's gotten bared, he got embarrassed twice already. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.680 But the reality is, when you're going through divorce, it's 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.360 really tough on the kids, and it's it's equally as 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.480 tough on the parents because you know, you're trying to 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.080 figure out, like, Okay, where am I going to fit in? 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.080 How am I gonna make this work? And so we 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.840 each have our own sort of approach and guess what, 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.480 you get that approach from our parents, Right, So some 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.600 of the things that I picked up from my parents, 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.440 or specifically one of my father we're not the way 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.720 to raise kits. And so you go through this journey 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.639 of learning, hey man, don't do that. That's stupid. That's 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.240 bad for you, it's bad for the kid. And eventually 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:18.920 you get to a point where you go, hey, I 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.120 think I got part of this figured out. So I 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.079 would say all of my children are light years ahead 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.359 of where I was as an adult trying to raise kids. Wow. 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.040 So the world's not going to ship. Oh no, not 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.800 at all. And the other thing he's has the best 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.320 news I've heard all week. I mean, there's you know, 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.400 it's not just about raising the kid, it's what the 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:45.160 child is exposed to write that environment, and that the 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.640 child knows that you care about them, you know, like 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.800 giving them limitations. You can do this. I want you 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.840 to be adventurous. I want you to explore, but you know, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.960 here's the limit. You can't go beyond that. That's really important. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.760 I can't let your brother on fire now that you 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.760 can try. So what I see them doing, you know, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.040 not just your honest but Jennifer there, they make a 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.880 really good team. And you know, I would assume that 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.040 if I went to your house that I would probably 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.520 see the same thing, just your own version of it, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.039 you know, your adaptation of how that works. That's good here. Well, 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:21.919 I mean you should be lapping us up, Yanni. You 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.039 look like you're not You're not. This is not many 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.320 guys ever get praised by their father in front of them. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.360 You think most people your dad's job is to take 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.159 you down and take down that's what he does. Now 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.200 he takes his own Manda joined also by nif Cole, 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.280 Dave Wilms. We met because you guys used to be 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:47.280 whatever the hell this means advisors two former Governor Matt 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:52.640 Mead of Wyoming. That's right, was very well light. So 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.280 they must have done a good job. It's the best 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.400 politician in the history of America. But he threw in 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.560 the towel, and he threw in the towel and doesn't 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.320 want to run for president. No, he crushed it for 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.640 eight years and then deservedly did what every good politician 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.200 should do, which is he he said, I've I've I've served. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.880 He did my job, and now he is lifting weights 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.279 at Gold's gym right now. Probably why while we speak. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.680 He's he's much thinner, he's tanner, he's buff again, he's 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.880 playing a lot of golf. None of those banquet meals. 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.200 Every time I think he should, I think he should 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.159 do like a if. There's probably a lot of strikes 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:28.719 you get and I don't know, because Cheney was from Wyoming. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:30.719 You can be from Wyoming and play on the play 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.440 on the main stage. Actually Wyoming. This is like we're 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.400 gonna go down rap hole. But there you get actually 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.480 a lot of uh outsize political clout when you're from Wyoming, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.280 because because there's some interesting stuff that we've done. First 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.760 of all, we keep the population very low, so we 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.120 have two senators and five thousand people, so your ratio 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.840 of senators to people in Wyoming is better than it 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.400 is in any other state. And the math one time 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.040 and figured out voting rates, So like Wyoming's population, how 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.640 many what percentage of that population is voting age, what 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.839 percent actually votes? Basically like six dudes can send you 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.960 to the governor's mansion. That's about right, and the third 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.159 of the populace is right here and U Yeah, and 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.039 if you don't get elected, you still get to be 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.400 a policy advisor. That's how it works. That's great. So 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.640 that's nice, But now you don't do that anymore. So now, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.000 nif I you've been on the show too or three times? 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.880 Two times? Dave and I have both been on here 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.440 together twice, but the first time, um, Dave just listened 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.840 to a football game on his iPhone the entire time. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.960 But well, in my defense, no, I don't have a defense. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.840 I mean I think I was actually kind of following 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.640 a Broncos game at the time. You sports fan, I 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.359 am a big sportsman, but also like Governor Mead was 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.880 your guest and we were on there as well, and 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.440 he was so good at everything. I just sat back, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:47.719 I'm not gonna need to say anything on this podcast 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.240 because this guy, like he knows his stuff, he knows everything. Uh, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.279 and so I can just follow a football game. Yeah, 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:54.800 it was pretty fun. We picked you up at the 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.760 airport in Denver and we record at like some kind 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.680 of sports stadium. Now we went that was different time 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.560 we went to We went to p F Chains for 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:09.120 lunch and uh, and then we with with Rourking some 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.640 guys from Magpole and the Magpool guys came down. We 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.760 all had lunch together and we drove down to the 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.960 Governor's mansion and rolled in there and sat down the 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:21.200 giant circle and ye fight or something because I know 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.920 because you were hunting afterwards. You were going anilop hunting. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.760 That's what it was. You were going anilop hunting up 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.360 in Wyoming. You flew in for the animal punt. Janice 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.120 drove a pickup in with all the stuff in it, 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.920 and then you guys met at the Governor's mansion and 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:36.520 then he picked you up and you guys drove up 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.880 to Casper, where I'm pretty sure you stayed at the 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.559 I don't remember he stayed. I'm a little disturbed, Steel Trap, 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.200 like they haven't impressed. I mean I remember this, stay 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.200 right kidding? I mean I remember the stadium right, because 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.720 you came a second time for Stage Grouse Hunt, and 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.120 we were, in fact, the second podcast to do with you. 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.280 You were like, we kicked on the lie to the 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.960 football stadium because we want to make a pitch where 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:04.920 people should go, because you always talked about going to 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.040 the University of Montana, and so we're like, well, let's 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:09.560 take him to the football stadiums. We went to the 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.080 Wildcat or suite, turned on all the lights. While we're 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.720 sitting in that suite open, They've filled the fridge full 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:20.600 of adult beverages and whatnot. And Josh Allen was actually 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.800 under the lights out on the field throwing passes to 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.920 some of his uh to some of his teammates. Um, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.200 but you know, I wasn't the same guy for everybody 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:35.440 who I still don't quarterback in Buffalo Backs. Yeah yeah, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.480 So now he's like really good, well yeah, but we 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.640 were sitting up there talking about stage ground. I think 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.760 do you think that he had all that success because 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.080 of the podcast that night. I'm sure it was piped 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.160 through the stadium speakers. He's like, now there are some 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.520 boys to take their job seriously. That's right. I'm gonna 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.760 take a dial out of that, poky uh nify. Now 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.600 is the n s s F Director of Government Relations, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.160 State Affairs and ss of being National Shooting Sports Foundation. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:06.920 What states? I cover the Rocky Mountains and the Upper Midwest, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.840 so um, you know it's not the I love those states. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.160 And then I do all the interactions with governor's offices 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.000 and then so I go to Republican governors and Western 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.439 governors and all that. And then I do also association 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.559 fish and wildlife agencies, so all the interaction with like 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.880 the uh you know, conservation partners at those things, all 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.360 the you know, the directors of game and fish agencies. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:32.840 Those are my people too. So I'll go to all 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.920 those meetings and I interact with those guys on behalf 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.679 of awesome. NSSF is the Firearms Trade Association of America. 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.080 So for people that don't know, UM, we represent the 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:48.720 nine thousand manufacturers and retailers of firearms, ammunitions, optics, UM, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.920 A lot of clothing manufacturers in the outdoor space. So 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.240 some of our members. A lot of your sponsors are 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:59.760 members people like weather be Bench, made Um, Vortax, absolutely, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.040 UM conservation groups like uh Rocky Mountain, Elk Foundation, Mule 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.800 Deer Foundation. So those are members. Just nine thousand different 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.160 entities that are members. It's not people. We represent entities 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.760 like corporate entities, nonprofits. So do you when you say 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.880 Republican governors, do you just not even getting to foot 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.360 in the door with the Democratic No, we go to 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.280 the Democratic Governors associations. Well, yeah, absolutely, and you'll get 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.719 a one on one meeting or now absolutely, We've had 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.080 some great conversations with there's a lot of you know, 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:33.280 there's great So this is again going down the rabbit hole. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.000 I don't think you can classify good or bad politicians 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.760 based on party. I think you have to really look 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.960 at the individual and see if those individuals are looking 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.600 at facts, if they're trying to find things out. In general, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.000 I think that human beings are smart and if people 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.840 are objectively looking at facts, are going to come to 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.520 They're gonna make good decisions. And I don't they don't 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.200 just instinctively slam the door in your face. That they 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.240 don't want to hear about it. No, I mean, I'd 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:56.960 be lying if I said it wasn't more difficult in 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.319 some offices than others. Because you know, if you know 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.520 Dave and I like, you know, you've you've got a 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.360 whole group of people. Sometimes you have to trudge through 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.160 to be able to talk to the guy who's in charge. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.240 And with that comes a lot of opinions, It comes 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:10.840 a lot of you know, comes a lot of you know, 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.160 history and life history and background thoughts and levels of 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.240 experience and levels of education. And so when you're working 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.840 with um you know, political figures, and this goes for 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.920 everybody listening. You have to be cognizant of that, and 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:24.760 you have to be respectful of that. If you're trying 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.640 to talk to a guy and convince him of something, 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.400 you've got to try and understand where he's coming from 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.839 before you throw your idea out there on the table 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.200 and demand that he believe as you believe. You have 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.640 to work your way into that. And and you know, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.559 I'm lucky that I work for an organization where I 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.280 think we are doing the right things, and so it 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.120 makes it very easy for me to be able to 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.080 you know, walk through what I believe to be truth 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:46.679 and what I believe to be facts, and then to 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.920 walk people into what I think is, you know, the 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.400 the right decision based on truth and facts. And I 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.240 think that's you know, I mean, that's why I feel 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.280 lucky to work where I work. Working for Governor Mead 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.760 was the same way. When you work for a politician 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.960 who you believe in and you believe he's doing all 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:02.440 those things for the right reason, it makes it very 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:04.560 easy to go to work every day and to feel 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.240 good about yourself at the end of the day when you, 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:07.760 you know, turn off the computer. Can you give us 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.760 an example of like something an idea you might pitch 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.400 when you go into these offices. Um, yeah, let's see, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.120 there's tons of them. Uh. Constitutional right to hunt and 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:22.359 fish in Utah. So Casey Snyder. We visited with Representative 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.760 Snyder when he just got into the legislature. And so 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.160 that's one of the legislatures that I work. And so 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.120 when I say I work legislatures, I means, you know, 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.720 from January till April, I'm traveling around all these different 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.199 states and I'm meeting with lawmakers constantly to talk about, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.480 you know, things that we believe our priorities. Every legislature 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.560 and the country is going to have, you know, five 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.199 hundred plus bills every year or someone who's gonna be 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.400 trying to change some piece of law. And so my 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:47.800 job is to try and look through those and make 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.440 sure that I'm catching if there's something that's negatively affecting 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.880 hunting and shooting, sports, wildlife issues and things like that. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.400 I'm gonna try and you know, analyze every one of 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.120 those things, try and figure out whether or not, you know, 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.840 we we we have a position as an organization that 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.240 we can take um if we don't, if we can 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.480 make one and then we share with you know, to 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.000 go back and educate those lawmakers as as best as 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.240 possible on what we think the facts are and why 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.480 we think that. You know, I think people should vote 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.360 a certain ways. So, for example, the right to hunt 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.280 and fish in Utah Representative Snyder, we visited with him 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.520 about it. Um. He believed it was important. The debate 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.600 on both sides that will be some people will say, well, 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.160 you don't really need to, you know, have a constitutional 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.920 right to hunt fish in the state constitution. Who would 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:31.840 take away the right to hunt and fish and so 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:33.679 then we would respond to that. I'm going to go 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.400 visit with that lawmaker and say, well, look, you know 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.440 in California they've already outlawed bear hunting. There's places, you know, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.480 in in Nebraska they tried to outlaw you know, this 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.000 is what I worked on. Also, they tried to outlaw 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.200 hunting cougars um. They've you know, in every state you 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.720 get these different rules, rags, laws that come up. And 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.280 so I'm talking with him about this and say, this 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.800 is why you need to have the state have a 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.599 uh a constitutional right that says no, we believe, even 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.800 in hunting and fishing as regulated by our game and 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.120 phish agencies, that that's an individual right that should be 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.080 protected under the state constitution. Because if you don't, it's 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.040 it's not fake that people will come in and they 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.800 will use they'll chip away at that individually. They'll find 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.400 excuses for why you shouldn't be able to trap with 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.600 this kind of trap in this area, and you know 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.440 they'll they'll whittle away at that. And that's not I'm 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.680 not making that up. That's happening today. And so what 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.640 we do is we try and convince those lawmakers to 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.840 pass legislation or to defeat legislation that would you know us, 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.800 you know, take those things away. And so that's what 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.400 I do for a living, is lobbyists and naughty word 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.960 and your crew. No, not really, No, I'm so I'm 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.000 of because people love to hate lobbyists, but they don't 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.080 realize that, you know, and I'm a I'm a registered 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.400 lobbyists in a couple of different states, I'm not you know, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.800 but you don't, you know, depending on the laws of 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.440 each state, it's totally different. I mean, it's such a 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:02.800 you know, you throw that word out there. It means 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.600 different things in different states based on different you know, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.280 legislative priorities and different rules and rags. Again. And so 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.480 in some states, I have little teams of guys that 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.920 I work with, UM that have some fantastic people that 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:16.920 I work with that that you know, I won't mention 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.600 their names. But in Colorado, in places like that where 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.560 they have those existing relationships, so you might have individuals 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.800 that are super passionate about wildlife and sportsman's issues in Colorado, UM. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.480 And some of those guys are Democrats, some of those 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.000 guys are Republicans, and depending on who's in office, you 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.520 need to know those people because you have to be 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.720 able to get through the door to talk to that 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.000 decision maker. And if you have put yourself in the 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.960 position of alienating all the people that you need to 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.480 work with when something big comes up, you're not going 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.600 to be effective. And so for us, that's why we, 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.760 you know, we need to make sure that we nurture 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.520 relationships and we care about people regardless of political party 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.520 and all those different states where we work because firearms issues, 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:04.720 sportsman's issue, they're not Republicans or Democrats. They are you know, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:06.920 these issues, these things we care about, these things that 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.120 are important, they're a political and so if you allow 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.280 yourself to be just lost in this you know, idea 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.160 that everything has to be associated with an R or 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.360 a D next to it, that's real tough position to 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.720 be in because you know, ultimately then you put yourself 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.280 at the whim of whoever you know you made enemies with. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.520 It's impect you want to like, periodically you're gonna get 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.840 locked out of certain states for eight years or twelve years, 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.840 and it makes no sense perpetually. Perhaps, yeah, because as 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.480 Michael Jordan's I don't know, you probably know this. Michael 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.480 Jordan's Michaels. I watched the last dance, well Michael Jordan's, 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.440 you know, and everybody said they wanted him to respond 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.360 on something. He said, Hey, Republicans buy sneakers to that. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.280 I mean, there's there's a there's a lot to that. 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.360 You know that. You know what that applies to hunting 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.840 in the shooting sports. It's like these things they are 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:04.280 they cross political divides. Uh. Dave Wilms now National Wildlife 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:09.040 Federation Senior Director of Western Wildlife. That's a big title, 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:15.840 and acting VP of Public Lands. Yeah, yep, yes, so 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:23.239 something just yeah, give us a sports scores and then 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.040 tell us a little b about what that means. Yeah. So, 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.720 um so when I left governor means offside join the 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:32.280 National Wildlife Federation. Uh. And I think the easiest way 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.480 to describe it for folks that aren't familiar with the 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.960 National Wilife Federation is you heard a Ranger Ricky. That's us, right, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.360 So that's our flagship publication. So the National Wildlife Federation 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:44.520 was Ranger rick still out. Oh yeah, can you get 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:50.520 my kids a subscription? You can? I can? I can. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.040 I always got Ranger rick as a kid. I thought 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.000 Ranger Rick was dead, not a ranger. Rick is alive 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:01.080 and well doing doing great. Oh yeah yeah, uh still 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.840 still our flagship publication. We also have a couple of 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.199 other publications out there. Really you can still get man, 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.520 because my kids right now are getting the Week for Kids. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.040 I don't like that. No, no, go get Ranger Rick. Yeah, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.400 now we'll talk after. I was a big boys life guy? 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.159 Did you did you get boys life? I don't know 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.760 boys life? Boy scouts? Wasn't a boy scouting? Oh yeah? 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.000 Are you were? You? Were you an eagle scout clad? 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.760 Hold up, now we got a topic. Yeah, because we 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.719 got were a lot of we got a lot of right, right, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.040 so this is still those interductions. Right. So National Wildife Federation, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.800 Ranger Rick. National Wildife Federation was founded, uh back in 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:42.800 nineteen thirty six. Right, So nineteen thirty six, President Roosevelt 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.159 in risk you know, not Teddy obviously, but uh D 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.840 r Yeah, in response to a bunch of conservations from 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.640 all over the country, UH convened this conference that still 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.320 goes on today at the North American Wildlife Conference, which 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.840 has held every March every year. UH convene this big 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.560 conference brought everybody to get there, to have a big 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.640 conversation about like the idea was there are there are 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.199 hundreds of these sports and organizations, conservation organizations working on 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.480 the local level, doing a lot of great things, but 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.520 there was nothing bringing them all together to advance federal 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.919 policy to help wildlife recovery across the country. You know, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:19.920 there was this recognition at the time we were still 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.399 dealing with the fallout from the market hunting and you know, 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.840 and the expansion west and just wiping out all these 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.200 herds of all these animals all over the place, you know, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.960 all the different wildlife that we maybe take for granted 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.000 a little bit today. And so so we gotta convene 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.639 this group, bring everybody together. And and this guy by 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.840 the name of Ding Darling, who was actually a cartoonist, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.919 Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist from a newspaper in Iowa. He 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.119 was a political satirist, right right, Yeah, exactly so, And 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.320 there's a he has a big wildlife refuge named after him. 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.880 He does. He actually he actually designed the first duck stamp, 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.280 federal duck stamp too. He was the head of uh 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.040 what used to be the the preceding organization to the 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.240 Fishing Wildlife service. He's also the first president of the 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.919 National Wildlife Federation, and he was Yeah, he was the 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.080 one that can help convene this uh, you know, working 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.000 with the President and others, convene this big conference bringing 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.119 I think two thousand people attended at the Mayflower Hotel 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.120 in Washington, d C. And at the end of this conference, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.159 what they decided is we needed a large federation. We 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.600 needed a wildlife federation that brought together all of these 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.760 interests from all over the country. Uh, to take all 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.880 these local interests and and and really focus the efforts. 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:33.199 You're one of the things that we're talking about at 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.239 the time is the same thing you hear about today, right, 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.959 is we don't have enough funding for wildlife management. Right. 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.520 We you know, everybody wants to do the right thing. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.800 Everybody recognizes that wildlife are struggling, but we don't have 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.119 the funding to put into it. And so this was 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.439 one of the first things that happened so that this 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.879 conference convenes creates the National Wildlife Federation. Now that this 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:53.920 conference and one of the first things that the National 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.560 Wildlife Federation does is helped pass the Pittman Robertson Act, 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.240 the big you know, this big piece of federal legislation 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.200 to figure okay, how do we at a federal level 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.800 help get resources on the ground for wildlife recovery, so 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.240 that the roots the history of our organization is, you know, 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.480 with the this big tent idea of bringing together everybody 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.280 from you know, egg interests and bird watchers and hunters 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.560 and anglers and everybody that that can say, Okay, we 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.159 might not agree on everything, but let's really work on 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.320 the eight percent of things that we agree on, and 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.680 let's try and improve the situation for wildlife and habitat 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.000 on the ground. And that's been the mission really of 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.000 the National Wilife Federation ever since. So today, you know, 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.359 fast forward eighty years, where we are one of the largest, 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.639 if not the largest um conservation organization organization of the country. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.879 We have six million members and supporters. We have an 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.560 additional two million members through our affiliate network, which is 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.000 made up of fifty two affiliates from all over the country. 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.679 So we're here in Montana. The Montana Wildlife Federation is 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.879 one of our affiliates. Our affiliates in these fifty two, 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.119 more than half of them are what you'd call your 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.520 traditional hook and bullet clubs right there. They're founded on 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.679 really the hunting and angling principles. And and then we 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.280 have a couple of dozen, right that are that are 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.920 more of the UM they aren't really that are more 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.119 of the environmental type of group. Right. You got so 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.000 you got some of the groups that are just that 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.440 that that aren't They don't they're not have a struggle 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.160 in here, they don't have a stated anti hunting position, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.320 but you get the sense that they they're private conversations 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.600 are very anti hunting, sort of like like Center for 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.960 Biological Diversity. Are they in your group or no? UM, 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.520 not that I've run across. No. And what's interesting about 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:39.600 the way we operate as a federation is so at 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.320 the National Wilde Federation are affiliates actually set our policies 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.800 and you know, our direction organizational directions. So you have 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:48.920 on one side of the coin you have your traditional 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.200 hook and Bullet that view as maybe a little bit 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.080 more conservative, right, and then on the other side you 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.320 have more of your traditional environmentalists I'm using very broad labels, 0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:59.840 but that tend to be more left leaning. And they 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.520 them together at our annual convention every year, and they 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.280 set our policies and so they have to agree. And 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.240 what that usually means is we come in right down 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:11.400 the middle on things and we aim to be a 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.159 nonpartisan organization that really just wants to make sure wildlife 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.399 and people thrive in an ever changing world. That's our 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:22.000 mission statement. So we're a big tent organization, UM. But 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:26.720 we have of our membership UM I believe the last 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:29.199 I saw nearly two million of them are identify as 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.440 either hunters or anglers. Like they are hunters or anglers 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:36.359 or are interested in hunting and angling. That makes us 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.359 a pretty significant player in the hunting and fishing world. 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.439 But we also have this other side of our organization 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.159 that you have your you know, backyard gardeners and you know, 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:48.600 you know, we have you know, your folks in the 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.080 city that want to do you know, do right by 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.080 wildlife in their backyards. And we have a Garden for 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.000 Wildlife program where you can you know, have a yeah 0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:00.240 habitat in the yard uh recognized for doing good things 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.760 for wildlife, for pollinators, whatever. So it's just a big, big, 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:06.720 diverse tent. And then so my my niche within that 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.680 is right now leading our public lands program, which is 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:13.160 primarily focused in the western United States on public lands issues, 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.000 although we do some in other places where there are 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:20.920 public lands UM and a lot of Western wildlife issues, 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.880 which actually turns out there's an awful lot of overlap 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:26.280 between those two, I can imagine. So we're gonna hang 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:29.439 you in a minute here, we're gonna hit you with, uh, 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:31.040 we're gonna hit you with the thing we're gonna talk 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:33.680 about that's gonna have a lot of touch points view 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:40.040 boys Wyoming public lands. So you're gonna like it, looking 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.400 forward to it. Quick note, Dave and I actually still 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:46.520 work together a ton on issues. Dave's organization and my 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:50.640 organization both sit on a w c P American Wildlife 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:54.159 Conservation Partnership and uh, interestingly enough, you know we were 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.360 joking about this when we both nuts on a dog 0:24:56.440 --> 0:24:59.320 man you just can't get, can't get. In fact, he 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.240 was talking about Pittman Robertson UM. Our organizations are members 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:05.160 where the folks that worked with NWF at the time, 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:07.640 and of course, you know, we want to make sure 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.120 people know like our membership are the guys that stroke 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:12.320 the Pittman Robertson check. You guys should get a little 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:14.840 duplex and just live there and we may have them. 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:17.399 I don't want to talk about it. Do you guys 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:21.560 influence the legislation as in lobbying for what happens in 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:25.960 the United States Congress? Uh? Yeah, so for both of 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:29.240 our organizations have a government affairs I don't do that personally. 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.879 We have a government affairs team that works with with 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:35.040 Congress and d C our affiliates do the work in 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:38.200 at the at locally at the state level, and I'm 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:42.560 I work more on the advocacy policy legal side and 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:45.520 and help provide those folks with the right information right 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:48.680 when they need it to to to ask make the 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:53.960 right asks. And occasionally, yeah, occasionally I'll go to I 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.520 don't go to a Republican Governments Association meetings. We'll go 0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.679 to Western Governors Association and uh go to a lot 0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:02.199 of the left conferences where state wildlife agencies come in. 0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.560 Really it's important to have those relationships with state wildlife agencies. 0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:09.360 In particular, I've had exposure to state legislatures in Michigan 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:12.720 as a home inspector. I was president of the association. 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.200 Not to bogus thing down, but it's amazing to me 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.600 how stupid and I don't have any other word. State 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.560 legislatures can be that's about bringing out laws that you mentioned. 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:28.880 I think they're extremely intelligent, and every state legislator is handsome. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.600 These guys are just throwing out nothing but olive branches 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:35.360 over here. Anyway. Well, I'm just speaking from my experience, 0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:39.800 and it's a different. Yeah, I've been in hearing where 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.840 I have and some of these legislators, now are you 0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:46.639 know and senators they went from state legislatures to the 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:50.399 federal level. And I'm thinking, this person has no clue. 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:53.560 And I always I'm amazed that how are they there? 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:55.880 How do they do what they do and not know 0:26:56.320 --> 0:26:59.400 what's going on around them? Bad lobbying, that's why. Because 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:07.720 if you're a good because uh, for here's the thing this, 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:09.199 this would be a good one for you because uh, 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.879 our our our colleague Sam James, say hello everybody, Sam, Hello, everybody, 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.600 to everybody. What you do around here? My role here 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.800 is the general merchandise manager, UH. And what I do 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:24.479 is UH I build and cultivate an assortment of products 0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:27.600 for the Mediator web store. And this assortment of products 0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:30.600 is based on the products that our team of content 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:34.760 contributors uses in their pursuits. Whether that's our hunting team 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:37.800 or fishing team, and our culinary team. So I work 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.840 very closely with our content teams and then are My 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.119 goal is to provide the product, bring the products to 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:49.359 the people so that you can uh for our followers, 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.760 our listeners and our viewers, they can learn about the 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:54.639 products that our team is using and then come to 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:58.000 our site and uh and understand why we use that product, 0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:00.760 why we think it's the best and and um and 0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:03.520 why they should consider buying it for their own purposes. 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:07.439 But today Sam is here, He's gonna tell us about 0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.120 I don't know how I found out about this. Sam's 0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:17.720 great great uncle Otto yep invented a this. I gotta 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.719 know if when if I knows about this invented and 0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:26.760 promoted a instead of a ground a triangle bullet, a 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:31.560 triangle shaped bullet which I which never took off. Correct 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:37.760 Now you say it never took off? Over multiple meanings 0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.240 on that. No, No, I guess I'm guessing it took off. 0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:43.520 It flew, but it flew but didn't take off it 0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.200 Uh yeah, yeah, what walk us through it here? This 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:49.640 is this is a good story. So my great great 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:54.400 great grand uncle, his name is Otto Schnaylock, he was 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:59.040 one of So he was a great great great grand uncle. Yeah, 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:01.840 so that you could probably him without even getting in 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:07.000 trouble like that distant the brother of my great great 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:11.680 great grandfather. So oh that makes sense. I believe that's 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:16.120 called a grand uncle. Um Otto Schneylock was his name, 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.080 and he was one of three boys. Their parents were 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:21.480 killed in a runaway carriage accident in Germany in the 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.680 mid eighteen hundreds made they were made orphans, and they 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.840 traveled each individually carriage at Yeah, that's that's part of 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:32.040 the research that I did for today. They were killed 0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.680 in a runaway carriage accident. Both the parents tragically killed. 0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:39.400 The boys were made orphans along with their sister in 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:41.040 each one of them. Were they in the carriage too? 0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:46.560 That's a good question, I assume not. Mm hmm. Man. 0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:48.960 That might be a good time machine token right there. 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.160 If I had like a lot of tokens, I might 0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:56.239 take one to go see that happen. Yeah, I don't know. 0:29:56.400 --> 0:29:57.960 If I had one token, That's not what I would 0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:03.240 do with it. We you do. Oh, I'd go back 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:07.120 to see the first Americans enter the Western hemisphere, and 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:11.120 I'd ask him some questions. That sounds great and maybe 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:12.760 the next time I'd go find out what happened on 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:16.600 that with that runaway carriage accent. Well, the three boys 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:20.160 and their sisters were made orphans. They eventually all came 0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:24.960 to America independently, and the three boys, Auto, Hugo, and 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:29.880 Emil began working in the firearms business. And Otto was 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:32.160 the inventor. He was the one. Did you say already 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.840 what year they came? Uh? They came around, uh, eighteen fifties, 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:42.160 eighteen sixties. So German orphaned kids. German orphaned kids. Um 0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:46.000 and the three boys. So Otto is my great great 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:49.560 great grand uncle, and his brother Hugo is my great 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:52.960 great great grandfather. Now, Otto was the one who patented 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:58.040 the three oh seven triangular round and revolver, and Hugo 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.720 interestingly as well, he worked for the Winchester Company in 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:06.920 New Haven, Connecticut for fifty years, and he is said 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:11.440 in our family lore to be the designer of the 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:17.680 Winchester Model ninety four. Now that's not what's in in 0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:20.880 in the history books and online, so I don't want 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:26.240 to mistake, but that's what's said the family lower family records. Ye, Man, 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.760 I can't tell you a quick story about that. My 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.680 one of my childhood mentors, my dad's close friends with 0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:39.720 a fellow name Eugene grons Uh. He had in his 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:43.800 place he had built these overhead gun racks, and he 0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:46.640 had he liked to have a gun for every year 0:31:46.680 --> 0:31:50.480 he'd been alive. I like this guy. So yeah, he's 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:53.520 like in his eighties, you know, and the guns just 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:55.400 like the roof is like I want to say, it's 0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:59.720 the ceiling is basically carpeted in firearms. But he one 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:02.680 day I was too young to realize how what an 0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:05.880 act of generosity is he one day in my presence, 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:09.320 when I was turning legal firearm age, which is twelve 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:13.320 in Michigan, he one day, Uh acts as though he 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:17.440 just made a discovery that he's eighty but there's eighty 0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:22.600 one guns. Could I do him the favor? I've taken 0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:26.240 one of them, and he gives me a uh model 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.280 with a peep site, And I went out to shoot 0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:32.360 not a bunch, I want to went out to shoot 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:34.560 deer with this thing. And then one day took it 0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:36.440 down to the wood stove store which had like a 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:38.560 gun counter, and sold that son of a bit man 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:42.880 for three d fifty bucks. You couldn't buy it now 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:46.000 for you if you wanted to go find that gun again. 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:48.560 I want that one back. I'm just saying, like, when 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.000 you find that gun, because somebody's got that somebody listening 0:32:51.000 --> 0:32:54.840 to this, Like somebody listening to this podcast has that gun. 0:32:55.200 --> 0:32:57.440 Twin Lake. I think it was called I can't remember 0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:02.560 as a wood stove gun store in my hometown's going 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:07.320 by three. It was the best selling high powered rifle 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:10.360 in history. I think they sold over seven million of them. 0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:15.280 So they're out there. So your family needs a good 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.320 lawyer to get some of that money back. Yeah. So 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:20.800 in family they're like so they're like yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:24.640 The history books say one thing, but everybody knows that. Yeah. 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:30.200 Apparently Hugo was according to our family history books, Uh, 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:34.280 he was hired by Winchester in his mid twenties. He 0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:37.480 was a gunsmith in New Orleans at the time. Um, 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:41.920 and he was brought onto to be to Winchester to 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:44.800 become their chief of design. That's what's in the history 0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:48.600 book in family history book. Excuse me, but but if 0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:53.280 you look it up, it was um John Browning. Yeah, 0:33:53.280 --> 0:34:00.600 that guy in the Browning left. Yeah, it's as soon 0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:01.760 as he said that I was gonna ask, you know, 0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.480 I think that I recognized another name associate with that, 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:06.400 and Browning of course is amazing. I have not heard 0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:10.080 of the triangular bullet. Um. I saw first pictures of 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:12.319 the patents yesterday. They Karine shared him with me. So 0:34:12.320 --> 0:34:15.239 it's very interesting. And uh yeah, it's interesting how some 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.560 of that stuff. There's some really fascinating stuff out there. 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:19.680 When you go back in history and look at some 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:23.080 of the firearms in history. Um, some of the other 0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:25.920 you know, Lewis and Clark just comes to mind immediately. 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:30.680 No packing around him, BOLTI shot air gun exactly, you know, 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:33.359 in the early you know, things like that that people 0:34:33.400 --> 0:34:36.040 would just never imagine we're invented. It's just really fascinating. 0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:39.440 I agree, we'll get to auto, all right, get to 0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:43.360 auto or whoever whatever then you got it. Um. Basically, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:47.279 the focus of auto snails eight seventy two triangular bore 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:52.120 triangular revolver invention was to create a more effective personal 0:34:52.160 --> 0:34:55.640 protection firearm because the public at that time was becoming 0:34:55.760 --> 0:35:01.160 increasingly interested in in carrying their own pistol for personal protection, 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.360 and the battlefield weapons of the time were too heavy 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:09.000 and too large for concealed carry, and so the major 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:16.919 gun manufacturers started designing and developing personal protection revolvers, and 0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:20.319 most of them, I believe. The first one was created 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:23.520 by Um Smith and Wesson their Model one, and it 0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:28.160 was a twenty two rim fire pistol revolver and it 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:33.760 shot eight rounds eight round capacity. Ah. Eventually the public 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:40.560 wanted to have greater firepower above and so Smith and 0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:44.439 Weston created a thirty two caliber revolver, but it only 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:50.759 held six shots. And then the the public wanted The 0:35:50.840 --> 0:35:57.040 challenge became that the public wanted higher capacity revolver with 0:35:57.120 --> 0:36:02.160 greater stopping power, with greater bullet um bullet weight. So 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:05.640 Um this was where Snail came in. He wanted to 0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:11.279 create a revolver that had heavier bullet and also had 0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:15.640 the higher capacity. So his triangular idea triangular bullet idea 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:18.080 was basically like if you cut an orange in half 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:20.799 and you look at the sections in the orange, the 0:36:20.880 --> 0:36:24.000 nature of the triangular bullets, they fit together in a 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:27.680 tighter cylinder within that revolver. Oh that's what he was 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:30.960 driving at. Yeah, So he could wasn't like lining up 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:33.200 a bunch of circles. Was just touched edge to edge 0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:37.120 and create a lot of metal exactly. So his concept 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:39.480 in the invention was he took the same cylinder out 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:44.920 of a twenty two revolver and was able to fit uh, 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:52.719 seven thirties I believe it was seven thirty two caliber 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:57.200 bullets within the same cylinder as a twenty two caliber. 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:03.520 So what was previously the twenty two revolver shot eight bullets, 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:07.880 the the existing thirty two caliber revolvers from Smith and 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:10.880 Wesson shot seven. He could he could shoot eight of 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.200 the same caliber in the smaller package if they were 0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:16.360 shaped like a triangle. If they were shaped like a triangle, 0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:21.640 and uh, it never really got off the ground. He 0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:24.320 got the patent, and interestingly, he got a secondary patent 0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:26.600 a few years later for an improvement on a breech 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:31.279 loader gun, and that patent was about UM creating an 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:35.120 attachment to go within the breech loader that could adapt 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:37.960 the breech loader to shoot rim fire bullets because they 0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:40.520 were just center fire at the time. So that was 0:37:40.600 --> 0:37:43.040 kind of interesting too. So do you guys have around 0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:45.360 in any of these old triangle pistols and triangle ammal 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.839 I don't, we don't. UM to my knowledge, there's only 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:55.560 one that exists. That's that's got the triangular boar as well. Um, 0:37:55.600 --> 0:38:00.200 but um that I'm not sure about. Um that the 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:04.080 word from my grandmother that she knows at one point 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:08.239 there was one person who had bought this revolver and uh, 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.000 they're looking for it. But but beats me, did you 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:14.520 guys have this conversation just to make me happy? Because like, honestly, 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.040 like I'm such a geek about this kind of talking 0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:18.439 about this for a long time, and I thought you 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.440 might enjoy it. No, it's awesome. It's super super interesting 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:23.920 because like you look at the advancements that people were 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:25.680 making in like the eighteen fifties and some of the 0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:27.719 stuff that you were talking about, and then the technology 0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:30.080 at the times, how they basically I mean you just 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:34.200 described firearms design and changes in farms, and I mean 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:36.080 you're talking about eighteen fifties. You could have been talking 0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:38.600 about any time in the last two hundred years, because 0:38:38.600 --> 0:38:41.839 that's I mean, that's that is the like, that's how 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:45.000 it works in this country. Like it's typically a lot 0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:47.680 of people don't know, but innovations and firearms designs almost 0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:50.799 always come from the civilian market and it's driven by 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:53.439 people who have real world concerns and real world needs, 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:55.160 and then it goes back to some engineer who's a 0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:57.880 guy who's working at a company like Browning or like Winchester, 0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:01.359 or or like Cult and then they're faced with trying 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:03.719 to figure out, you know, why Stephen Ronnella wanted this 0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:05.440 thing in his gun, and then figuring out a way 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:07.400 to make it work. And then they test it and 0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:08.880 then they roll it out to the public and they 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.480 see who likes it, and then you know, uh, somebody 0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:14.520 does like it, and then it becomes popular and then 0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:16.560 interestingly enough, like a lot of times you hear people 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:19.200 think that like these advancements come from kind of this 0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:22.160 military direction and they drive down the civilian market. That's 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:24.040 just not the case. It actually goes the other direction. 0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:27.719 It's civilians like was Lewis and Clark who come up 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:30.120 with you know, the Hawkins rifle, you know, better guns, 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.359 and then ultimately, you know, these things are proven out 0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:35.799 that their workable technologies, then they make their way the 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:38.920 other direction to where you know, military guys will will 0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:41.480 start using some of those products to improve the stuff 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:43.520 that they have access to. And it's just it's really 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:47.440 a fascinating aspect of American firearms culture. This back and 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:50.960 forth in interaction that's always occurred in our country since 0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:54.320 a guy, you know, put rifling in a in a 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:57.560 long rifle on the banks of Wylom Missing Creek, you know, 0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:02.720 in the six hundreds. Uh, we'll come of Uncle Otto. 0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:04.439 Did he ever, like come up with the great idea 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.840 and struck it rich? You know what happened? He was 0:40:06.920 --> 0:40:11.440 actually killed in a shooting competition by a careless companion. 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:17.200 Uh yeah, he really Yeah, And you guys might find 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:21.560 this interesting that after he after he enlisted in a 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:24.480 two year term in the Union Army as a volunteer, 0:40:24.800 --> 0:40:28.480 and he got through the war, wasn't injured. So civil 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:31.239 War veterans Civil War veteran the n r A was 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:33.560 starting upright about the same time, I believe that was 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:37.399 eighteen seventy eighteen seventy one, and a couple of years 0:40:37.480 --> 0:40:40.800 after they founded d n r A, they started holding 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:44.759 shooting competitions and he got into these and um, according 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:48.920 to n r a's annual reports from eighteen seventy three 0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:52.200 eighteen seventy six, Otto did pretty well in these and 0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:55.799 even one of the one one of the Sportsman's competitions. 0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:59.960 So he was a competitive shooter and it was actually 0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:03.640 lie Um it was it was competitive shooting that was 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:06.520 ultimately his demise. He was killed on the shooting range 0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:14.320 accidentally shooting. Like, uh, firearms accidents and firearms incidents seemed 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:16.960 to be so much higher in those days. When you 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:18.919 read Life and Death at the Mouth of the Muscle Shell, 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:24.000 which I recently read, I mean people just I think 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:25.920 it's like people just trying to figure stuff out. But 0:41:26.000 --> 0:41:30.680 man shooting themselves on accident, shooting each other on accident. 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:33.120 A lot of the things you take for like, a 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:35.240 lot of the sort of behaviors we take for granted 0:41:35.280 --> 0:41:39.040 around safety just was not baked in the hunter. Safety 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:43.040 wasn't around yet. No, it's like it's interesting today it's 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:46.480 shooting sports are safer than any high school sport that 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:49.920 you can pull up, Safer than soccer, safer than softball, 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:51.880 safer than you name it. You know where it lines up. 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:57.239 I was looking at some statistics, Uh, billiards. Yeah, in 0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:00.000 terms of injuries per hour, it's like a right around. 0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:02.280 But there's a lot of severe a lot of severe 0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:04.279 injuries on the billiards table. There are a lot of 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:08.560 reasons rates rates like it was like, oh like nobody 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:11.920 blah blah, and you look at like the rates and 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:14.000 when you get down to like rate of injury per 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:17.120 hours spent per practitioner, I think it lines up with 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:20.480 pool and billiards. It's super low. And that's like Jannest 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:22.319 hit it on the nail on the head. It's has 0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:24.480 to do with I mean, it has to do with 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.640 where we've come to. You know, firearms related accidents are 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:31.319 near all time lows right now. They've um like it 0:42:31.440 --> 0:42:33.960 really is. It's it's a safe endeavor to get into it. 0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:36.400 That said, it's because people need to follow the rules. 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.040 You know, there are certain rules of firearms safety. We 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:41.680 all know what they are, right Number one, and we 0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:44.719 may talk about these again because they're super important. Number one, 0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:47.880 every gun is always loaded, even if you have decided 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:49.480 in your head you don't think it's loaded, even if 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:51.600 the guy that hands the gun to you says it's 0:42:51.600 --> 0:42:54.600 not loaded. Every gun is always loaded. Every gun is 0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:56.600 always loaded. You treat it like it's always loaded no 0:42:56.640 --> 0:42:59.040 matter what. Even if you just check the chamber and 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:00.759 you think it's not loaded, you treat it like it's 0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:03.120 always loaded. You know, you know what book I bought 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.520 recently I couldn't finish reading. It's that it's called Dying 0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:13.680 to Hunt in Montana, and it's a a exhaustive catalog 0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:18.040 broken down by cause of death of everyone they can 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:24.000 find in the history who has died hunting. Here, all 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:28.360 the people that have died from grizzly bears exposure, anything 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:30.399 you could like the fact that someone took the time 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:32.200 to put this together is amazing. Did they write a 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.640 story about each person? And it's like two sentences. It 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.239 could be longer, be really interesting if you had the 0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:42.399 whole backstory of a lot of some of them have got. 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:46.880 But you're back in the when you're back in the thirties, forties, fifties, 0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:54.680 and you're in the hunting accident section, you can't it 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:58.600 just like there was a sort of mental shift that 0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:04.920 occurred about um firearm handling. Well that that like that 0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:07.600 kicked in some point between then and now. We're just 0:44:07.719 --> 0:44:11.480 the amount of things we're like what what like crossing offense, 0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:14.839 crossing offense, crossing offense, handing the gun to someone under 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.080 the fence, just on and on and on, and I 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:19.600 think that there's like we've somehow got to a point 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:24.000 where you just walk around a little more paranoid. Let's 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:26.279 it's like, it doesn't have to be paranoia, it has 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:27.879 to be habit And I think that that's what we've 0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:30.640 gotten into now. And to be frank, this is one 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:32.319 of the challenges that you see, Like go to a 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:37.319 shooting sports competition now right, you're you're your girl Taylor, Right, 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:39.560 you watch somebody like that handle a gun at arrange. 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:43.560 What never happens. The gun never points at anybody. Why 0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:46.400 because there's a practice. If that gun's ever pointed at anybody, 0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:48.120 if it's ever pointed in the wrong direction, you're done 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:50.560 for the day. You're gonna go home and buy ice cream. 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:54.040 You're not welcome here because you're you're handling practices aren't correct. 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:57.160 Other the other things, you know, rules of firearm safety 0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:00.040 also obeyed. There's uh, you know, you never point in 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:02.600 firearm and anything you're not willing to destroy. Why because 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:04.880 it's always loaded. You never have your finger on the 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:08.040 trigger and the manual safety disengaged until you're ready to shoot. 0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:10.799 Why because the firearm is always loaded, even if you're 0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:12.719 not putting anything you don't want to destroy. And then 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:17.799 last you never ever point a firearm that's something to 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.560 shoot it, put your safety off and figure on the trigger. 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:23.360 Unless you know exactly what you're gonna shoot and exactly 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:25.400 where the bolt's gonna go. Be sure if your targets 0:45:25.400 --> 0:45:28.239 beyond it. Why because you're responsible for every bolt that 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:31.200 comes out of the gun. And through shooting sports, like, 0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:34.680 none of that is negotitionable. It all happens all the time. 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:36.160 And so when you go to places where people are 0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:41.280 participating in the shooting sports, those safety things are baked in. Unfortunately, 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:46.319 if you when people become you know, if we see 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:48.600 this actually in the hunting community way too much, where 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:51.200 people become they can decide that they can be lackadaisical 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:54.000 with the rules of firearm safety. Because I've been doing 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:56.280 it since i was ten years old and now I'm 0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:58.239 you know, this age or whatever. I've always done it 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:01.440 this way, right where guys they take shortcuts, they don't 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:04.120 obey the rules, They put the gun, they carry it 0:46:04.160 --> 0:46:06.440 in a weird way. They think it's okay to you know, 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:08.800 do certain things. And what you see is when you 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.239 see competitors and you see you know, and I've heard 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:14.200 had people say to some of the silliest things I've 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:15.920 ever heard somebody say, well, look at guys who are 0:46:15.960 --> 0:46:17.960 like an elite military units, they point guns at each 0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:20.560 other all the time. No, they don't, you know, I know, 0:46:20.680 --> 0:46:22.799 you know, Kyle amb some of the best shooters, best 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:26.280 people in the entire world. There's zero tolerance for breaking 0:46:26.280 --> 0:46:29.799 the rules of firearms safety. And it's baked in, and 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:32.239 that's something that we need to do as sportsman. We 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:34.680 need to bake this. We just have to insist on 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:37.239 that because you know, you take I take, you take 0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:38.920 new guys hunting all the time. I'm sure I do 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:41.839 the same thing. It stinks to have to yell at 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:44.640 a guy, So first of all, don't yell at him literally, 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:46.879 but it's not fun to have to be the guy 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:49.640 to have to remind him the sixth time don't point 0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:53.799 that at me, you know. But through doing that, if 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:55.560 you do that enough days in a row, guess what, 0:46:56.080 --> 0:46:58.200 he doesn't point at you, and he doesn't point it 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.920 in anybody else, and then it's his turn to tell 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:03.719 somebody else not to you know, to be to be 0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:06.319 muzzle aware. But if we don't do that as a 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:09.239 community like it's it's that it's having, it's caring about 0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:11.160 somebody enough to make sure that they have good firearms 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:14.319 handling skills. That has made it so that we're not 0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:17.480 the nineteen twenties anymore, so that you can go to 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:22.120 a shooting competition and not worry about your physical safety 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:34.520 and like it's just something we have to do, oh, 0:47:34.600 --> 0:47:36.880 real quick, and they'll do this other real quick thing. 0:47:37.760 --> 0:47:40.160 I have noticed that this might be anecdotal, I have 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:44.520 noticed in my lifetime a different attitude about chambering rounds. 0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:47.279 Now we used to change in high school. It was 0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:49.759 like part of stepping out of the truck, you throw 0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:51.800 one in the chain because no one want to be 0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:54.920 caught with their pants down, right, so it was always 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:57.600 ready to roll and then you just have the safety, 0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:01.040 you know, standing between you. And that I've noticed in 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:05.320 my rather extensive social circle the people are a little 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:07.759 more deliberate about when it might make sense to rack 0:48:07.880 --> 0:48:12.479 one in and walking out and setting decoys. Maybe maybe 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:14.879 you rack it when you're all set up and not 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:19.680 just kind of like habitually have it racked at all 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:24.120 times during all activities. Like we're more careful about that. Now. Yeah, 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:28.200 you get set up, you get the blind made out, 0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:31.600 then you might throw one in the tube. I'm gonna 0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:38.719 I'm not that guy you step out of the truck. Yeah. Like, 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:43.759 and it's I've watched friends that do what you're talking about, 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:45.200 Like they don't rack into the last second, like on 0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:47.960 an l count for example, And I watched him forget 0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:52.040 and pull up and just like, well there's the last 0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:55.080 second and then there's just being deliberate. I mean it's 0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:58.120 it's not like I'm riding down the road racked up. 0:48:58.160 --> 0:48:59.920 But you know, like when I go set up a 0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:04.799 my I get my gun loaded, put it in the 0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:06.880 in the blind, and then I set everything up because 0:49:07.320 --> 0:49:08.840 what if something comes in in case you got a 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:15.520 barrel rollback and probably overly cautious. Um, but all those 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:18.000 things are gonna be like those are gonna be personal decisions, 0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:20.400 are gonna be cultural decisions, are gonna be family decisions. 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:22.160 And the one thing I would say, because I don't 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:23.800 think all of us here we could argue about that 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:27.200 until we're blue in the face, obey the four Fundamental 0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:30.840 Rules of firearms Safety. If you obey the four Fundamental 0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:35.839 Rules of firearms safety, literally every other incident that you're 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:38.680 going to talk about or imagine, your head goes away. 0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:44.120 They don't exist if you obey those four rules. Okay, 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:48.560 are we done with Otto and the triang your bullets? 0:49:49.280 --> 0:49:53.520 The other tragedies happened in his family? Well, uh, there 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:55.680 are actually two more things I wanted to mention. And 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.800 one of the reasons that Auto didn't make it his 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:02.560 his invention didn't make it as because Colt began producing 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:06.000 the single action army revolver a K the Colt five 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:09.799 in eighteen seventy three, and that really blew up in 0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:13.000 the following years when they started creating shorter barrel options 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:15.480 for civilian carry. So that was that was one of 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:17.640 the big reasons, not just his death, that it didn't 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:21.000 go anywhere. Um. And then the other thing that just 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:25.200 to mention is that the third brother, my other great 0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:28.120 great great grand uncle, he worked for Springfield Armory in 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:32.680 Massachusetts for fifty years. So these were three orphans from Germany. 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.160 They came to America on their own independently and then 0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:40.560 ended up being innovators and UH and developers within the 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:46.919 firearms trade in the eighteen fifties to the early bring 0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:50.279 this full circle again, Yeah, go for it. Friday, meaning 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:52.040 the day after Thanksgiving, just a couple of days ago. 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:59.200 My son, my eleven year old son took possession of 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:08.839 his great grandfathers Springfield Mark one which was manufactured in 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:13.000 nineteen nineteen, and that now sits in my gun safe. 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:18.399 That's pretty cool. That's awesome. It's got that little red 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:23.440 red something Redfield. Little Pete he bought. So he was 0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:27.319 in Whiskey Whiskey two in the Pacific Theater and came 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:29.920 home and just bought a gun like what he was 0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:32.600 issued when he was training in the military, and that's 0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:35.240 what he bought. He bought it used for twelve bucks 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:39.120 and they still have the receipt. That's awesome. Yeah, my 0:51:39.200 --> 0:51:43.239 kids real fired up to shoot something with it. Real 0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:49.120 fired up. He's really he's excited. It was cool. Okay. 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:55.520 So auction House oft is Group six again auction sty 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:58.400 to support our access initiatives here at Mediator, we have 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:01.080 a New York's Met a New York Mets baseball bat 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:08.120 signed by our our buddy polar Bear, Pete Alonso, So 0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:10.759 you can go get that bat signed by him and 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.560 use the thump fish in the head after you catch them. 0:52:13.680 --> 0:52:17.520 We have two Trampled by Turtle concert Trampled by Turtles 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:21.480 concert tickets. That's Dave Simonette who's been on the show 0:52:21.520 --> 0:52:24.680 as well. So Pete Alonso has been on this podcast. 0:52:25.400 --> 0:52:28.160 Dave Simon that's been on this podcast. Um if you 0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:29.719 want to go find the one that Dave was on. 0:52:29.800 --> 0:52:34.880 It was episode called Sex, Guns and Bluegrass. So Dave 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:38.239 has the tickets and when you buy this package, you 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:41.800 go to the concert and you go backstage to attend 0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:45.400 the meet and greet with Dave. It will be playing. 0:52:45.560 --> 0:52:49.720 This one is good for Colorado's Red Rocks Amphitheater in July. 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:53.480 So you can get tickets for Colorado Red Rocks Amphitheater, 0:52:53.840 --> 0:53:00.000 go back meet Dave. Um all paid. Here's another weird one, 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:10.880 uh you can get so Spencer, Seth, and Chester have 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:16.040 all volunteered to let you pick what you want them 0:53:16.080 --> 0:53:21.040 to have tattooed on their arm. They're giving you a 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.760 quarter so it's the size of a piece. They're giving 0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:30.200 you a quarter sized portion of the real estate on 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:35.920 their arm. You pick a tattoo design, they will get it. 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:41.520 This will be Seth's first tattoo. So you select a 0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:46.440 design and then three people, the flip Flop Flasher, Spencer 0:53:47.360 --> 0:53:51.680 and Chester the Divester all will bear your Designs says 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:55.560 here Phil too. Oh no, no, no, no, no, Phil, 0:53:55.960 --> 0:53:58.239 that was part of the internet. Should care about conservation. 0:53:59.320 --> 0:54:01.239 We can talk about that later. But no, it was 0:54:01.280 --> 0:54:03.600 just why does it say you jumped on board? I 0:54:03.600 --> 0:54:05.520 thought it was referring to on board, like getting a 0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:09.960 tattoo train, not not this specific tattoo. What's wrong with 0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:13.040 this plan? It sounds like a great plan. I just 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:15.399 don't know if I'm you know, I mean, those boys 0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:18.000 are gonna bring in a little bit of money sting, 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:21.760 those boys are being like not smart. I support it totally, 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:24.600 but come on, man, So you just explained why I'm 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:27.520 not going to be a part of that's why. That's why. 0:54:27.640 --> 0:54:32.080 Hell no, But I'm just thinking, you know, a quarter 0:54:32.239 --> 0:54:36.040 on your arm would really bring in the box. Yeah, 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:38.400 but I don't want a tattoo on my arm. Me 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:41.000 and my wife are the last untattooed couple in America. 0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:45.680 But I'm gonna get uh. I am gonna get that 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:49.879 world Slam Turkey tattoo I'm talking about if you get 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.799 it too, you know I'm not. I'm gonna get an 0:54:53.840 --> 0:55:00.480 outline outline of like uh, North America on my arm 0:55:00.520 --> 0:55:02.960 and then a dot where all the turkeys from my 0:55:03.040 --> 0:55:05.359 Turkey world Slam came from. And that suite my kids. 0:55:05.360 --> 0:55:06.839 When I told my little boy that, my six year 0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:08.800 old boy, he almost started to cry. He like thinks 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:12.600 tattoos are very like just not a good idea. He 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:18.479 doesn't understand him. What would it take? Maybe he really 0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:22.359 understand them, he might understand the better wells money would 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:24.799 it take? Like, let's just say, if if we just 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:28.120 had that person that could should just shell out whatever 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:31.080 number you put you pick, probably would be real careful about. Oh, 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:33.920 like what amount of money? Yeah, for you to do 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:36.080 a quarter sized tattoos so that all that money would 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:39.560 go to land access. Five thousand dollars, that's it. But 0:55:39.760 --> 0:55:41.520 how long do you have to keep the tattoos? Because 0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:45.200 I understand that thing right, So you could get the 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:50.040 tattoos some period of time like a permanent easy. Yeah, 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.120 we haven't gotten to that level yet, but yeah they 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:53.640 can do. So they could pull a fast one like that. 0:55:53.640 --> 0:55:55.120 I don't think they're gonna pull a fast one. And 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:58.000 every think Spencer's getting his whole damn arm tattooed. So 0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:00.600 it's just gonna be in the midst talking else I 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:02.440 was talking for you. I was talking for you, that's 0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:06.239 your sort of extending off what they might do for me. 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:11.080 It would take five unless it was what I want. 0:56:11.200 --> 0:56:12.960 If they were just gonna pick what I want anyways, 0:56:12.960 --> 0:56:14.440 and I would just do it. But I don't know 0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:16.440 if I want it, Like my wife doesn't want me 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:19.000 to my wife doesn't want me tattooed. It's like a 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.160 lot of familiar resistance against this whole idea. But like 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.200 our friend Pat Durkin, he started getting tattooed in his 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:27.120 sixties because he thinks by the time he's sick of him, 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:30.279 he'll be dead. So that dude's covered in new tattoos 0:56:30.640 --> 0:56:32.440 because he doesn't have enough time to regret it. He 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:35.319 says he's just gonna die and think they're still cool. 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:39.440 Who's that guy that? Uh I don't On a Saturday 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:41.640 Night Live, he's like, all he has all those tattoos, 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:43.319 and he said he's going through the process of having 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:46.399 them all removed right now. Yeah, and he's talking about 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:48.239 it being like the most painful experience of it. That's 0:56:48.239 --> 0:56:52.160 one dude, I don't understand how anyone like it's baffling, 0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:58.480 Like he's the least funny person on the planet. He's 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:02.439 like the it's like the least funny funny person. Yeah, 0:57:02.440 --> 0:57:04.960 and he's he's dating some mega famous model, like a 0:57:04.960 --> 0:57:07.360 different one every single month. It's just it's wild. I 0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:11.360 don't understand it. How you could be that unfunny? Have 0:57:11.440 --> 0:57:14.840 you wanted? He did some roasts on on Comedy Central 0:57:14.960 --> 0:57:18.080 that we're really pretty good. I only see him coming 0:57:18.120 --> 0:57:22.960 on and like screwing up Saturday Night Live skits, but 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:28.800 not even in a funny way. Well, anyhow, welcome to 0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:30.720 middle aged Mr. I gotta keep moving. No, it's not 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:32.440 a middle aged thing. I think allows that's funny, just 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:36.280 not him. Uh oh, so you get the Yeah, you 0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:38.919 pick the tattoo, they get it on their arm. So 0:57:39.320 --> 0:57:41.400 those guys are, you know, putting their arm out for 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:45.920 access my personal spear gun, which I've been shooting for 0:57:45.920 --> 0:57:49.880 a few years now. And if you successfully uh so 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:53.880 Season ten um our next episodes the drop for season 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:56.720 ten on Netflix, you'll see that spear gun in their 0:57:57.080 --> 0:58:01.240 Me and Yanni's super famous spear gun YouTube video. That's 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:07.240 the gun in there. I've used it Mexico, Hawaii, America, 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:10.800 all over damn place. That gun is up for auction. 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:16.920 Mark's tree saddle from back forty. So Mark kenyans tethered 0:58:16.960 --> 0:58:20.560 mantis tree saddle that he used to kill the wide 0:58:20.600 --> 0:58:25.320 eight I meetators back forty, signed and donated by Mark Kenyon. 0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:29.760 We got some arts and crafts type stuff, a lot 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:35.800 of it, and then Karn's crystal critter collection. So they're 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:39.480 sitting from you right now. These are handmade red squirrel 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:47.200 sterling silver, Herkimer diamond jewelry. Set includes earrings, a necklace, pendant, 0:58:47.280 --> 0:58:52.000 and a ring, all made of sterling silver and squirrel feet, 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:57.720 sterling silver and squirrel fast. These bad boys around, beautiful work. 0:58:58.080 --> 0:59:01.920 My daughter shitter pants. I can tell you, like legitimately 0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:05.240 right now, like this is literally I'm holding a napkin 0:59:06.000 --> 0:59:09.680 like this tissue paper, buddy, don't don't mean, don't degrade 0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:15.760 its tiny little feet. Beautiful squirrel foot earrings, all kinds 0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:20.320 of squirrel foot jewelry. Brodie's turkey foot which is flipping 0:59:20.360 --> 0:59:22.919 the bird, which is a great I love making those things. 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:24.960 You make a little plaque, it's a turkey giving you 0:59:25.000 --> 0:59:27.640 the finger. Brody's got one of those. Now here's a 0:59:27.680 --> 0:59:31.000 weird one in the auction house of oodities, and we've 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:35.200 I have one in my personal collection. Now you gotta 0:59:35.240 --> 0:59:38.040 hear me out because we've checked into this. This is legit. 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:43.680 It's a brick, Okay, Red You look at these bricks 0:59:43.680 --> 0:59:45.960 and you know these sons of bitches are old. It's 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:50.480 a brick from the general store that Jim Bridger owned 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:54.960 in Kansas City, Missouri. We have three of them. I 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:57.680 rad hold one way. It's in my it's on display 0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:00.720 in my house. I rad hold one away me. Spencer 1:00:00.760 --> 1:00:04.840 has one, and Spencer has given the third brick from 1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:11.400 Jim Bridgers General Store in Kansas City, Missouri in the 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:15.400 auction housbodies and you can check into the pedigree of 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:17.720 this brick and everything is legit. Check this one out. 1:00:18.800 --> 1:00:21.800 Here's a good item. A guided tour of the Duran 1:00:21.920 --> 1:00:25.480 family farm. You get to go spend the day doing 1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:28.520 a tour. I think Duran is gonna donate four hours. 1:00:30.040 --> 1:00:33.920 You spend four hours touring Dug with Doug Durn, getting 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:38.200 a tour of Doug Durn's farm, to talk about wildlife management, 1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:43.280 habitat management, how a family farm pays the bills and 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:46.080 provides access and does the right thing by wildlife. You 1:00:46.120 --> 1:00:49.080 talk about all this with Doug. I could spend four 1:00:49.160 --> 1:00:53.040 years driving around with Doug talking about stuff on Doug's farm. 1:00:53.160 --> 1:00:56.280 He's a wonderful tour guide. Um, He'll take you to 1:00:56.280 --> 1:01:00.040 get some cheese kurds. He will even throw in a 1:01:00.080 --> 1:01:05.400 whole jar of Buckman juice. You do not need to 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:07.920 worry about the authenticity of the Buckman juice because you 1:01:07.920 --> 1:01:12.360 can watch Doug. Dog is willing to let you watch 1:01:12.480 --> 1:01:16.800 him emit the de Buckman juice throughout the four hours, 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:20.520 and he will fill that jar up. Take across the 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:23.640 line here. That's a that's a wonderful idea if you're 1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:27.360 into his Buckman juice. But I've got even a maybe 1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:30.720 a better idea. I think we should go national with that. 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:34.560 I think you could have a Wisconsin version of Buckman 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:36.960 Juice and then you could set up franchises all over 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:39.880 the country. Yeah, but they have to like, like do whatever. 1:01:40.120 --> 1:01:43.080 They'd have to have the same diet as Dug. Dougget 1:01:43.080 --> 1:01:45.479 has to lay out a regiment for them of how 1:01:45.560 --> 1:01:49.120 he produces such a potent juice. I'm gonna tell you 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:53.200 the Latinan Eagles version works too well. I mean, you 1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:56.520 feel like you got I don't know a lot of 1:01:56.520 --> 1:01:58.760 deer came by my stand this we are in Wisconsin. 1:01:58.920 --> 1:02:00.440 Well that's true. What we'd have have to do is 1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:02.960 put up a trail cam. You take a whiz on 1:02:03.000 --> 1:02:05.040 a tree, and Doug takes a whiz on a tree, 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:07.800 and then we wait and see it would be continent revenue. 1:02:07.840 --> 1:02:10.600 What I'm saying, oh no, yeah, because because the problem 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:14.040 with Buckman juices is not scalable, but we don't know 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:17.960 that we haven't tested it. If it has to market 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:20.120 and it's all over, and someone starts to get to 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:22.440 calculate and how much year in one man can produce, 1:02:22.480 --> 1:02:24.200 it might be like an expose Like do you remember 1:02:24.200 --> 1:02:27.640 when there was an expose on dough and heat urine 1:02:28.760 --> 1:02:31.520 and someone went and looked at and all the sporting 1:02:31.680 --> 1:02:35.200 stories around the country how much dough and heat urine 1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:37.520 was for sale. And then they went and looked at 1:02:37.560 --> 1:02:40.320 how many captive does are there? How long is a 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:43.360 dough and heat for? How much does she urinate while 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:46.000 she's in heat? And they're like, there's a lot of 1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:48.200 stuff out there that says do and heat urine that 1:02:48.240 --> 1:02:51.120 there's no way is urine collected from a dough in heat? 1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:54.080 I agree, And that was like a big scandal. So 1:02:54.120 --> 1:02:57.080 if we do Buckman Juice and someone gets doing some math, 1:02:57.200 --> 1:03:00.280 it might turn out that they're like, you know, buck 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:03.080 Man juice. Let me just introduce the next level, and 1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:05.120 that level is that you go to all these you 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:10.880 make it Buckman brand, but then you have localized versions 1:03:10.920 --> 1:03:13.280 of it and you go to all these small breweries. 1:03:13.640 --> 1:03:15.960 You know, you just have a thing aside. Hey, like 1:03:16.000 --> 1:03:21.200 we'll pay you, and juice becomes like a brand. There's 1:03:21.240 --> 1:03:25.120 like sick dog signature, like the Doug signature lying and 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:27.960 then yeah across stop peeing in the alley and pee 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:32.680 in this cut. That's good. There could be a legal 1:03:32.720 --> 1:03:34.800 aspect to it, though, because if you turned it over 1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:36.800 to the cops, you know, I feel like it's going 1:03:36.880 --> 1:03:39.680 to hurt the value of the though if your original 1:03:40.120 --> 1:03:42.080 you're trying to oh yeah, but here's the deal man, 1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:45.320 this this is going on now and that so like 1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:47.000 if you want to get on the ground floor, you 1:03:47.000 --> 1:03:49.680 can get your during family farm tour, this farm tour 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:53.320 with Doug during Dude, it better go for high dollar. 1:03:53.760 --> 1:03:56.240 I met. I became friends with Doug during because a 1:03:56.280 --> 1:03:57.919 long time agoen I didn't get a lot of mail. 1:03:58.040 --> 1:04:01.440 I got a letter from Dug, and the letter was 1:04:01.520 --> 1:04:08.360 so touching, and I was so drawn to him and 1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:11.720 so moved by his story of his family's property that 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:15.560 I went out and visited him. He could have chopped 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:17.640 me up and buried me in a hole, but he didn't. 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:23.080 We became like friends, and I'm one of his biggest cheerleaders. 1:04:23.240 --> 1:04:28.400 And to go and spend time talking about landscape and 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:31.080 in relationships with the land with Doug during is a 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:36.880 um quite a prize. There's a here's the free item giveaway. 1:04:37.080 --> 1:04:39.040 So this way all this other junk we're talking about. 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:41.240 You got a bid on, like you want those squirrel feet, jewelry, 1:04:41.240 --> 1:04:42.400 you got a bit on you want to hang out 1:04:42.400 --> 1:04:44.000 with Doug. You got a bit on it. This is 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:47.120 for free. It's a giveaway item. Soft sided yetie cooler, 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:49.800 so yettie hopper, signed by a bunch of folks. Here 1:04:49.800 --> 1:04:56.880 at meter, stuffed to the gills full of merch, tease caps, 1:04:56.920 --> 1:05:00.600 cup spices, et cetera. We also got a bunch of 1:05:00.600 --> 1:05:04.960 other stuff, lots of art, a guided fishing trip in Arkansas, 1:05:05.240 --> 1:05:10.120 Genuine gator scoots, so cured taxidermied gator scoots that you 1:05:10.200 --> 1:05:11.600 lay out on the counter, which I kind of want 1:05:11.600 --> 1:05:14.200 a bid on myself. Check it all out. It's all 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:17.440 on the auction block. All right, you boys ready to 1:05:17.440 --> 1:05:20.840 get get brass tacks on some Wylming public land stuff. 1:05:21.120 --> 1:05:25.520 Let's do it. Okay, we're gonna avoid rabbit holes on 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:29.000 this one and lay the groundwork right. Well, Yanni's gonna 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.880 lay the groundwork first, Yanni explain for the eighteenth time. Oh, 1:05:32.920 --> 1:05:36.160 you know, we talked about corner crossing so much that 1:05:36.240 --> 1:05:40.200 there was a Yellowstone Public Radio story that someone sent 1:05:40.240 --> 1:05:43.320 to me and then laying out when trying to like 1:05:43.440 --> 1:05:48.560 define corner crossing, the journalists pointed out that we talked 1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:52.880 about it all the time on this podcast. What does 1:05:52.920 --> 1:05:55.560 that make this podcast in the place where people talk 1:05:55.600 --> 1:05:58.640 about corner crossing all the time, but it's like reference 1:05:58.760 --> 1:06:03.000 material you might know it from this pop is like 1:06:03.080 --> 1:06:06.040 a popular Bowsman based podcast where they're always yam or 1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:10.800 on about corner crossing. So layout for me, so I 1:06:10.840 --> 1:06:14.919 can drink my coffee. What it means, what it means, 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:20.440 Why it's why, why it matters succinctly. Yeah, out West, 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:23.800 a lot of places we have what's called checkerboarded lands. 1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:26.320 I'm not gonna get into how they got that way 1:06:26.360 --> 1:06:29.440 because I'm doing the abridged versions that okay, but it 1:06:29.520 --> 1:06:32.600 is a good story. It is I don't worry about. 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:36.360 But basically, if you think about a checkerboard, and if 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:38.439 all the black pieces were public and all the red 1:06:38.440 --> 1:06:41.640 pieces were private, and you were able to hunt the 1:06:41.680 --> 1:06:44.680 public just the black pieces, you would have to hop 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:47.440 corner to corner to make it across the checker field 1:06:47.440 --> 1:06:50.560 and access all of the public land that technically you 1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:52.840 and all of us here owned and should be able 1:06:52.880 --> 1:06:57.720 to hunt. But because of rules and states basically saying 1:06:57.800 --> 1:07:03.680 that the landowners that own the adjoining land the red pieces, 1:07:04.040 --> 1:07:06.280 when they come to a corner, they own that air 1:07:06.400 --> 1:07:09.200 space above their two corners as well. So even though 1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:11.640 you don't touch their land as you cross over from 1:07:11.680 --> 1:07:15.080 corner to corner, you're trespassing through the air space above 1:07:15.120 --> 1:07:18.600 their land, thus making it illegal. Let me ask you 1:07:18.600 --> 1:07:23.800 a question, Johnnie, what would you imagine? Would you imagine 1:07:23.840 --> 1:07:29.240 that they're not actually concerned about your shoulders passing over 1:07:29.320 --> 1:07:33.400 their airspace? What do you think they really are after 1:07:34.920 --> 1:07:38.480 control of said public lands? Like it's just it's all 1:07:38.520 --> 1:07:44.360 for you, So it's like a proxy. Is this airspace issue. Like, 1:07:44.480 --> 1:07:46.360 I don't think anyone's like Tom, I'm worried about my 1:07:46.400 --> 1:07:48.360 air sprace. I think they're like, man, I'm worried about 1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:52.640 a bunch of holders walking through land at time. Immemorial 1:07:53.640 --> 1:07:57.440 has just been available to me in my family. Nay, 1:07:57.520 --> 1:08:00.280 taxes on a very small rabbit hole. I apologize. Why 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:03.040 is there so much checkerboarded land? Because they when they 1:08:03.120 --> 1:08:05.120 put the railroads in, that's how they gave away the land. 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:09.439 The railroads would encourage settlement and they did all kinds 1:08:09.480 --> 1:08:12.200 of transaction through land. So the railroads come in and 1:08:12.480 --> 1:08:17.160 to incentivize railroad construction, they would give like for every 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:20.639 t as as the as the railroad company was laying track. 1:08:21.600 --> 1:08:26.000 They were subsidized by land grants. Okay, so you would 1:08:26.040 --> 1:08:28.800 get like it could be different deals. You might get 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:32.439 fifty miles on either side of the train tracks if 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:36.280 you build the tracks. Then those people needed to encourage 1:08:36.280 --> 1:08:39.880 settlement to have something, to to have freight. I'm just 1:08:39.920 --> 1:08:43.719 going very general here. The railroad companies wanted to encourage settlement, 1:08:43.760 --> 1:08:45.479 and they had the land. They could dispose of what 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:49.320 they will, But oftentimes they would give them every other 1:08:49.439 --> 1:08:53.640 section and they issued it out on these corner to 1:08:53.720 --> 1:09:01.479 corner touching pieces. So in some areas it's literally like 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:03.599 you might look at an area that you might look 1:09:03.640 --> 1:09:06.000 at an area that could be let's say a township size, 1:09:06.000 --> 1:09:08.960 so thirty six square miles. The entire thirty six square 1:09:09.000 --> 1:09:12.800 miles might be like literally checkerboarded miles squares touching on 1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:15.880 the corners, maybe two million acres. Sometimes you'll get into 1:09:15.880 --> 1:09:19.640 a situation like this where let's say you have a 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:22.719 chunk of BLM. We'll just take BLM for instance, because 1:09:22.720 --> 1:09:25.280 what I'm gonna get to I think is a BLM story. 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:27.120 But let's say have a chunk of BLM and there's 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:29.120 a road cut through it. So there's a county road 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:32.679 and you have access to that BLM. If you could 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:36.680 jump one corner, it might not just open up a 1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:39.880 bunch of more checkerboard, it might open up a huge 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:46.040 contiguous block. There are areas where jumping one corner, the 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:50.240 ability to jump one corner would open up ten thousand 1:09:50.600 --> 1:09:58.320 contiguous acres of land. So there's some boys in Whiloming 1:09:58.400 --> 1:10:00.639 that are in trouble right now because lot of states 1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:03.519 like it's unclear in a lot of states, like what 1:10:03.640 --> 1:10:07.479 the actual thing is Montana. They've often recommended against it. 1:10:08.120 --> 1:10:11.280 Their policy is, we recommend against it. We recommend that 1:10:11.320 --> 1:10:15.360 you get landowner permission because of the airspace issue. Four guys, 1:10:16.960 --> 1:10:18.640 they were non residents. I feel like they should have 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:21.400 been residents. Four non residents in Wyoming right now are 1:10:21.479 --> 1:10:27.200 up for criminal trespass because they corner hopped. Okay, there's 1:10:27.240 --> 1:10:31.640 a lot of interest in these fellers prevailing because if 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:35.600 they prevail and they're found not guilty of criminal trespass 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:40.439 for corner crossings precedent, people would be less likely. Dave 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:43.840 shaking his head vigorously. No, yeah, that's why you're here, Dave. 1:10:45.280 --> 1:10:51.240 Oh no, No, it's not your turn yet. Dave says, 1:10:51.280 --> 1:10:53.680 no that I'm to say, like, we got to take 1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:55.519 a lawyer from Wyoming. He's got to take off his 1:10:55.520 --> 1:10:59.400 professional hat really quick. So this doesn't represent as Dave, 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:01.479 you go talk to us. All talk to you is Dave, 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:07.439 old Dave. Dave. Let me tell you something I have. 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:11.840 Of all the names I have the best luck with, 1:11:11.960 --> 1:11:17.120 Dave's an incredibly long line of Dave's that i've we 1:11:17.200 --> 1:11:20.320 go back generation are names I have trouble with. I 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:24.599 don't want to say him and so forth. There are 1:11:24.680 --> 1:11:26.880 names I have trouble with historically, and there's names I 1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:29.240 do well with historically. And Dave, And whenever someone's having 1:11:29.240 --> 1:11:30.600 a kid and they say like, we can't think of 1:11:30.600 --> 1:11:32.320 the name, I'm like, I'll tell what your name is, Dave, 1:11:33.400 --> 1:11:36.280 because then I'll be friends with him. So I'm trusting you, 1:11:36.320 --> 1:11:38.599 and I want to hear from Dave, not some crazy 1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:43.519 asked lawyer. All right, what if I'm both not some 1:11:43.680 --> 1:11:47.880 tight ass lawyer. So let me lay a little more groundwork. Yeah, 1:11:47.920 --> 1:11:53.479 for sure in your answer or in your analysis of 1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:55.960 this situation. Oh, at first I got to get into this. 1:11:56.360 --> 1:11:58.320 There's a go fund me to help these to help 1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:02.000 these fellers fight their legal battle. Where is that? What 1:12:02.120 --> 1:12:04.720 is the fund? Keep finding? Oh? Holy count like all 1:12:04.760 --> 1:12:08.920 go fund me, it's like horrible, uh www dot go 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:16.720 fund me, dot com, slash f slash, corner dash crossing 1:12:16.880 --> 1:12:21.040 dash legal dash fee fundraiser. But I bet if you 1:12:21.080 --> 1:12:22.920 typed in a bunch of stuff like go fund me 1:12:23.080 --> 1:12:26.840 corner crossing fundraise, that you will find the thing, which 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:31.599 is people raising money to help these corner crossers with 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:34.760 their legal fees. Here's my the final thing I canna 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:39.680 say about this with corner crossing, I personally, personally and 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:45.599 professionally would love to see a solution to corner crossing 1:12:46.240 --> 1:12:52.599 where uh we could work out a way for people 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:58.160 to corner cross but it would need to involve some 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:02.320 like careful survey work, and it would need to involve 1:13:02.400 --> 1:13:04.720 like I've seen that actually seen in some places. A 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:09.639 imagine two adjoining step ladders that had so you pick 1:13:09.720 --> 1:13:14.559 these these like key areas, survey them, mark it out. 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:17.040 You have two adjoining step ladders, so people are able 1:13:17.040 --> 1:13:19.120 to go up a step ladder laying on a platform, 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:23.040 walk across the platform down the step ladder, and sportsman, 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:25.920 I'm sure would I would. I would. I would take 1:13:26.040 --> 1:13:30.479 every dime we raise with our Access initiative, that's to 1:13:30.520 --> 1:13:32.840 check with cal By bet Caldy into it, and we 1:13:32.880 --> 1:13:34.920 would put all of the money we raised with our 1:13:34.960 --> 1:13:38.439 Access initiative, if cal is okay with it into said 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:44.280 surveying and said step ladder apparatus is in strategic locations, 1:13:44.520 --> 1:13:47.120 we would pay for all of that and start strategically 1:13:47.160 --> 1:13:49.840 going in and being like, here's another thousand acres for 1:13:49.880 --> 1:13:52.760 public hunters, here's another two thousand acres. Here's another five 1:13:53.120 --> 1:13:56.719 acres survey it mark the corner, put the step ladders 1:13:56.720 --> 1:14:02.040 in if we could resolve the airspace issue. So, now, Dave, 1:14:03.240 --> 1:14:06.240 what comes to your mind when you hear all this? Okay, 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:09.080 so I'll start with I like that throat clear, sorry 1:14:09.280 --> 1:14:13.240 that we're gonna get it right. Yeah. Um, so I'll 1:14:13.280 --> 1:14:16.639 start with this. I don't know the particulars of this case. 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:20.200 Forget that this particular Um no, I mean to forget it, 1:14:20.200 --> 1:14:22.320 but it can inform it. But let's just talk about 1:14:22.320 --> 1:14:25.479 it in general, just corner crossing genil. So, because this 1:14:25.560 --> 1:14:27.760 is Wyoming, I'll talk to you in the context of Wyoming, right, 1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:30.040 but I can I can be a little bit broader, 1:14:30.200 --> 1:14:32.840 right like, So for example, let's start with with the 1:14:32.880 --> 1:14:37.000 basics of there's no law at the federal level that 1:14:37.120 --> 1:14:42.559 specifically allows or disallows corner crossing. So there's no there's 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:45.000 no statute on the books. What would a law like that, 1:14:45.200 --> 1:14:49.040 say it would if you were to have one that 1:14:49.080 --> 1:14:51.840 allows it or disallows it? I mean like what, yeah, like, 1:14:52.320 --> 1:14:54.200 what would the law be? You know it would it 1:14:54.240 --> 1:14:58.400 be like an airspace issue or so? I it might 1:14:58.439 --> 1:15:00.519 be right like, so right now, the FA it controls 1:15:00.520 --> 1:15:04.880 the airspace and navigable air space and it and the 1:15:04.920 --> 1:15:07.840 way that that the f A defines it is, you know, 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:11.599 in urban areas, the navigable airspace, which is the public 1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:13.960 domain for air space, starts at a thousand feet. In 1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:18.920 more rural and unpopulated areas, it's at fiet um. That's 1:15:18.920 --> 1:15:21.599 the f A A right. But there's been some some 1:15:21.640 --> 1:15:25.320 Supreme Court case law that actually has said, well, you know, 1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:28.040 maybe that actually extends even closer to the ground than that. 1:15:28.479 --> 1:15:32.320 Um So, but you know, at the time those regulations 1:15:32.360 --> 1:15:34.120 were started, I don't think people we really thinking about 1:15:34.400 --> 1:15:37.680 corner crossing for hunting, your accessing public land. So so 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:39.360 you'd write a law that if you were doing at 1:15:39.360 --> 1:15:41.479 the federal level, that says, you know, for purposes of 1:15:41.520 --> 1:15:45.360 accessing used BLM, for example, you know that it would 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:48.960 be legal for for stepping from one corner at a 1:15:49.000 --> 1:15:51.600 survey pin right cut stepping over the survey pin to 1:15:51.600 --> 1:15:58.639 another UH piece of adjacent UH federal land. That's very simple. 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:00.960 So you could be like nuts and bolts about it. 1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:04.200 For a purpose of public foot travel, public access, it 1:16:04.280 --> 1:16:06.800 is legal to blank yep, absolutely, you could do something 1:16:06.840 --> 1:16:09.840 like that. Um Okay, So the federal level. At the 1:16:09.880 --> 1:16:12.839 state level. Now, this is where I'll get a little 1:16:13.160 --> 1:16:16.040 uh may get out of my lane just slightly, because 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:19.680 I haven't done a survey of every state, right, but um, 1:16:20.000 --> 1:16:22.200 and I might. So I'm because I know, like in 1:16:22.880 --> 1:16:24.920 I might get this wrong because in like South Dakota, right, 1:16:24.960 --> 1:16:29.360 you can walk section lines, uh, and that's a means 1:16:29.360 --> 1:16:35.599 of access. But places like Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Colorado, Uh, 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:37.720 some of those inner Mountain West states that you think 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:40.960 of with the big chunks of public lands, there's no 1:16:41.160 --> 1:16:43.240 I don't know if any law on the books in 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:48.120 those states that either permits or specifically prohibits corner crossing. 1:16:48.280 --> 1:16:51.639 So you start with this fundamental premise of there's actually 1:16:51.720 --> 1:16:56.160 no law on the book that expressly prohibits that activity 1:16:56.240 --> 1:16:58.240 or expressly permits it. So then you have to dive 1:16:58.280 --> 1:17:01.439 a little bit deeper to figure it out. So here's 1:17:01.479 --> 1:17:04.400 here's Wyoming, for example, And so that's where I'll go 1:17:04.439 --> 1:17:06.120 to Wyoming because it's sort of what I know. Yeah, 1:17:06.120 --> 1:17:10.160 that's what that's what this cases cases. Right. So in Wyoming, 1:17:10.200 --> 1:17:13.240 we do have a law on the books, uh, and 1:17:13.320 --> 1:17:17.719 it's ten four Wyoming Statute ten dash forward dash three 1:17:17.720 --> 1:17:22.760 O two uh and three oh three, which defines the 1:17:22.840 --> 1:17:27.519 ownership or gives the ownership of the space above the 1:17:27.640 --> 1:17:30.200 lands and waters of the state. It's vested in the 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:32.640 owners of the surface beneath that air. So basically, you 1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:36.040 own the surface, you own the air above it. And 1:17:36.160 --> 1:17:40.479 there's an exemption carved out for aircraft so long as 1:17:40.520 --> 1:17:43.519 it's not so low that it interferes with the existing 1:17:43.640 --> 1:17:46.800 use of the land. So theoretically it could come pretty 1:17:46.800 --> 1:17:48.840 low if you're not interfering with the existing use or 1:17:48.920 --> 1:17:51.880 enjoyment of the private land. Uh. I mean, if you're 1:17:51.880 --> 1:17:54.240 scaring the hell out of someone's cattle, that might be interfering. 1:17:54.320 --> 1:17:58.200 Might be interfering. Yeah, exactly, so, So that's where the 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:01.840 art you hear that the argument come up at. Okay, um, 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:05.040 if you own everything, if you have a law in 1:18:05.040 --> 1:18:07.880 the books that says the lander owns everything from the 1:18:07.880 --> 1:18:11.040 the ground up, and you have these and you have 1:18:11.360 --> 1:18:14.559 laws of surveying, right that the principles of surveying property 1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:17.840 lines says you have a your property line is infinitely 1:18:17.960 --> 1:18:21.280 thin that when you get to these corners, there's no 1:18:21.320 --> 1:18:24.679 way of actually stepping across a corner, even if you 1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:28.479 know the survey pin is there without to your point, 1:18:28.600 --> 1:18:33.120 without your shoulders entering the airspace? Where which is where 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:37.000 the argument is that you can't corner across because you 1:18:37.040 --> 1:18:40.000 have this law on the books saying they own the airspace. 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:45.559 I think, and I'm not taking like, I don't take 1:18:45.560 --> 1:18:47.840 a position right, I'm like not taking a huge position here. 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:51.040 I'm just trying to lay out with the So here 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:53.519 are a couple of supposed to be Dave, let me 1:18:53.560 --> 1:18:57.720 ask you this. Okay. Let's say our whole system of 1:18:57.760 --> 1:19:01.000 government and rules and everything changed. It just became where now. 1:19:01.040 --> 1:19:03.880 And then we decide that we're just gonna ask Dave 1:19:03.920 --> 1:19:06.719 if it's okay, and that becomes the rule of the land. 1:19:07.680 --> 1:19:09.479 And we come to you and we're like, this one's 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:13.200 in your court, Dave. It's corner crossing okay or not okay? 1:19:13.240 --> 1:19:16.559 What would you say, as do I want it to 1:19:16.560 --> 1:19:19.240 be okay? Or is it legally? You get you're the 1:19:19.640 --> 1:19:22.559 man you're putting on putting me on it. Man, the 1:19:22.680 --> 1:19:26.679 final the constitution needs this. It's like the Constitution says 1:19:27.360 --> 1:19:30.760 on this issue, Dave will decide, Yeah, I want us 1:19:30.800 --> 1:19:32.120 to figure out a way to be able to access 1:19:32.120 --> 1:19:35.599 our public lands. Right, and and so that it's evasive. 1:19:35.640 --> 1:19:38.160 But you're there, yeah, I'm feeling. So there are here 1:19:38.160 --> 1:19:41.000 two examples i'd give you of where this if there's 1:19:41.000 --> 1:19:43.639 a principle in the law when you're interpreting a statute, 1:19:43.720 --> 1:19:45.639 so I look at this one of ownership of airspace. 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:48.120 There's a principle in the law called, uh, you know 1:19:48.120 --> 1:19:50.479 when you're doing statutory construction, which is, you know, a 1:19:50.560 --> 1:19:53.960 court is interpreting a statute, and you you start with 1:19:54.280 --> 1:19:57.240 the plane meaning of the words on the page. You 1:19:57.280 --> 1:19:59.439 start with, Okay, what's the plane meaning of the law, say, 1:19:59.640 --> 1:20:01.760 and if plain meaning is clear, you don't go any farther. 1:20:01.840 --> 1:20:04.799 That's what you apply. But there's another principle in statutory 1:20:04.840 --> 1:20:08.200 construction that says you can't read a statute to create 1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:14.400 an absurd result. Uh that yep, yep, and so and 1:20:14.439 --> 1:20:17.439 so I'd like so i'd propose this. Here's two examples 1:20:17.439 --> 1:20:19.160 i'd proposed to you that I throw that I'd throw 1:20:19.200 --> 1:20:22.120 out there in Wyoming right of examples where if you 1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:25.719 read the letter of the law, you'd be trespassing every time. 1:20:26.640 --> 1:20:28.960 But I've never heard of anybody's sided for trespassing. These 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:32.800 two examples because it would be an absurd result. One 1:20:32.800 --> 1:20:35.880 of them is if the property line is infinitely thin. 1:20:37.320 --> 1:20:40.479 We have laws for for building fences. For example, if 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:43.160 you put a fence up on your property line that's 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:46.400 not infinitely thin, you are by definition trespassing on your 1:20:46.400 --> 1:20:49.240 neighbor's property by putting up that fence. But we allow 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:51.320 you to do that, and we want, we encourage people 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:54.320 to do that. Um. And in fact, we're a fence 1:20:54.320 --> 1:20:57.519 out states. So if you don't want neighbors livestock coming 1:20:57.520 --> 1:20:59.240 onto your property, you're encouraged to put up a fence 1:20:59.280 --> 1:21:03.200 and keep them out right. UM. So there's an example 1:21:03.200 --> 1:21:05.880 where I have never seen somebody sided. You follow the 1:21:05.880 --> 1:21:08.760 statute for how to construct a legal fence, and as 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:10.759 long as you do that, you can put a fence 1:21:10.760 --> 1:21:13.600 on a surveyed property line that's your property line, and 1:21:13.640 --> 1:21:17.679 even though that fence is half half on their property, 1:21:17.680 --> 1:21:20.599 it's not a trespass. You can do that can give 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:22.639 you an example. I was good. So here's my second 1:21:22.640 --> 1:21:25.639 example before I forget it because I freaked. I'm sorry. 1:21:25.720 --> 1:21:28.400 My second example is so in Wyoming, water is the 1:21:28.400 --> 1:21:33.880 properties of the state, and it's if you want to 1:21:33.960 --> 1:21:38.759 float on. So the landowner may own the In Wyoming, 1:21:38.960 --> 1:21:41.200 they may own the bed and the banks of the river. 1:21:41.720 --> 1:21:43.920 You can't put your foot on the on the bottom 1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:46.080 of the river and you're trespassing. But as long as 1:21:46.080 --> 1:21:50.080 you're on that water, you're not trespassing. So you're sitting 1:21:50.920 --> 1:21:56.800 on public water but over private land, therefore in private airspace. 1:21:57.080 --> 1:22:00.439 But I've never heard anybody gets sited for trespass. You're 1:22:00.479 --> 1:22:05.519 floating along in your tube, right, You're technically everything underneath 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:08.080 you is private land. Yeah, why don't they make the 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:11.360 airspace argument there? I've never heard it made, right because 1:22:11.360 --> 1:22:13.599 I think it would be an absurd result. We said 1:22:13.640 --> 1:22:17.439 those are navigable waterways, and that the public is entitled 1:22:17.439 --> 1:22:20.439 to use those navigable waterways as long as they don't 1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:23.840 put their anchor down or or or get out and 1:22:24.200 --> 1:22:26.719 wait on the That's the first time I've ever heard 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:30.280 that point raised, because you haven't talked to me about it. Yeah, 1:22:30.320 --> 1:22:35.880 he's a good attorney. You're floating in shallow water. You're 1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:39.840 closer to their land than you would be stepping over it. Right. 1:22:40.320 --> 1:22:41.599 What I was a good point out was, let's say 1:22:41.600 --> 1:22:42.880 you get out to take a leak on the side 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:44.599 of the road and you walk down and you point 1:22:44.600 --> 1:22:47.120 out something over the fence. You're never gonna get a 1:22:47.120 --> 1:22:49.360 ticket for your arm pointing over the fence, right, I 1:22:49.400 --> 1:22:50.800 thought you're gonna say, and you have a little bit 1:22:50.800 --> 1:22:53.320 of wind draft with your pee. I was saying like like, 1:22:53.360 --> 1:22:54.960 if you're staying there, and I'm like, you know whatever, 1:22:54.960 --> 1:22:58.360 I jest you're over fence and someone says I'm going 1:22:58.400 --> 1:23:00.280 to give you a citation for having your him over 1:23:00.360 --> 1:23:02.639 that offense, there's no way you're gonna wind up walking 1:23:02.640 --> 1:23:05.920 out of that courthouse. So to find like you're you're right, 1:23:06.040 --> 1:23:09.479 my arm waved over the fence, so you can can 1:23:09.479 --> 1:23:13.680 I make a couple of other points on okay, so 1:23:13.680 --> 1:23:15.559 so you get to let me let me talk about 1:23:15.600 --> 1:23:17.639 this specific point because I think you're honestly you were 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:20.280 making that when you're introducing this, you're saying, well, maybe 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:23.840 it'll set a precedent or something. The way that the 1:23:23.880 --> 1:23:26.400 judicial system works. So this is in a circuit court, right, 1:23:26.439 --> 1:23:29.600 it's a misdemeanor offense. The penalty for a criminal trespassing 1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:33.559 wyming is maximum seven fifty dollars and up to six 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:37.040 months in jail u for for this misdemeanor. It's not 1:23:37.040 --> 1:23:39.800 gonna origin open jail. Yeah, Like if I could pick 1:23:39.880 --> 1:23:44.479 between these two seven fifty bucks sounds better, it's yeah. Uh, 1:23:45.320 --> 1:23:52.160 So it's a misdemeanor offense. Right if if the defendants 1:23:52.200 --> 1:23:56.080 here are are acquitted at the circuit court level, there's 1:23:56.120 --> 1:23:59.840 no legal precedence set so that because it's just just 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:03.240 down that the facts of the situation showed there there 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:05.519 either wasn't enough to convict, there wasn't enough to show 1:24:05.520 --> 1:24:08.680 that they actually trespassed, or or the facts show that 1:24:08.720 --> 1:24:11.559 they in fact did not trespass. But there's not a 1:24:11.640 --> 1:24:17.920 legal interpretation of uh in that situation about whether that uh, 1:24:17.960 --> 1:24:20.680 whether the application of like ten four three oh two 1:24:20.760 --> 1:24:24.960 the airspace law, whether that creates this uh, whether they 1:24:25.000 --> 1:24:27.840 breached the invisible barrier, And there's no interpretation as a 1:24:27.880 --> 1:24:30.120 matter of law. They're on a on an acquittal. Now, 1:24:30.680 --> 1:24:35.280 if they're found guilty, then there is a process to 1:24:35.400 --> 1:24:38.320 appeal that to the district court and the Supreme Court, 1:24:38.360 --> 1:24:40.160 and then at that point they could make arguments on 1:24:40.240 --> 1:24:43.000 matter of law and do this this interpretation and talk 1:24:43.040 --> 1:24:46.879 about you know, maybe you're you're creating an absurd result 1:24:46.920 --> 1:24:49.800 here or whatever, and then you could potentially get to 1:24:49.800 --> 1:24:53.720 the point of having um something that sets precedent. But 1:24:53.800 --> 1:24:56.679 if at the circuit court level, if if they aren't, 1:24:56.720 --> 1:24:59.080 if they are not convicted at the circuit court level, 1:24:59.560 --> 1:25:02.240 it's not it's not going to can you can you 1:25:03.120 --> 1:25:07.519 plead guilty and then if you wanted to advance, like 1:25:07.680 --> 1:25:09.519 let's say you really wanted to push for a test case, 1:25:09.640 --> 1:25:11.760 it doesn't work that way. You can't plead guilty and 1:25:11.760 --> 1:25:15.760 then appeal. No, you just plat out. I mean, I'm 1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:18.400 not a criminal lawyer. I remember. This reminds me of 1:25:18.439 --> 1:25:21.000 another wildlife issue that I used to follow. There was 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:26.280 a on the Flathead Reservation in northwest Montana. There was 1:25:26.320 --> 1:25:29.080 a rule that, like UM, at some point in time, 1:25:29.400 --> 1:25:32.479 tribal members were able to sell land to non tribal members. 1:25:33.840 --> 1:25:36.160 So you had a lot of non tribal members who 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:39.559 owned land within the reservation boundaries, but because they weren't 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:44.040 tribal members, they didn't enjoy certain hunting privileges on their 1:25:44.040 --> 1:25:47.719 own land because it was governed. The hunting was governed 1:25:47.720 --> 1:25:51.080 for tribal members. Remember this guy when I was when 1:25:51.120 --> 1:25:54.280 I was living over that neck of the woods, this 1:25:54.320 --> 1:25:57.519 guy would make a big scene out of every year, 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:00.000 inviting a bunch of people out to do a pheasant hunt. 1:26:00.840 --> 1:26:05.639 And he'd always be come arrest me, please, because he 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:10.720 wanted to get it pushed to the right court. And 1:26:10.760 --> 1:26:14.600 he would be frustrated because they wouldn't do anything, and 1:26:14.680 --> 1:26:16.280 he just wanted to get it to a point where 1:26:16.320 --> 1:26:19.240 it could be clarified law. He wanted to challenge the law, 1:26:19.600 --> 1:26:23.400 but they never would take de bait with him because 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:26.040 they knew what he was after. Is there a chance 1:26:26.080 --> 1:26:28.040 that someone would just be like, Okay, you're not guilty 1:26:30.600 --> 1:26:33.880 in order to not do precedent or does the world 1:26:33.880 --> 1:26:36.760 not working like conspirators conspiratorial ways like that, you know? 1:26:36.760 --> 1:26:39.040 And I don't know the answer to that. I'm not like, 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:41.080 that's not something I could speculate about. I would hope 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:43.600 that I would hope that our judicial system works in 1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:46.560 a way, um that the facts of the situation in 1:26:46.600 --> 1:26:49.559 the law are applied fairly to everybody and nobody's trying 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:52.479 to use it as a way to game a system, right, 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:55.479 especially in the criminal context, which this is, you know, 1:26:56.200 --> 1:27:00.240 in the civil context, I've definitely have seen exam pults 1:27:00.280 --> 1:27:03.000 of trying to to game figure out a way to 1:27:03.000 --> 1:27:04.880 gain this instant but in the criminal context, I really 1:27:04.920 --> 1:27:07.200 hope that that I really hope that doesn't happen. So 1:27:07.240 --> 1:27:09.080 does it seem like the go fund me is getting 1:27:09.080 --> 1:27:12.880 ahead of itself, like they should maybe not fund these 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:17.920 feathers yet so they don't have like like have them 1:27:17.920 --> 1:27:23.080 going with a poor legal defense. They get convicted, then 1:27:23.120 --> 1:27:25.640 you pour the money to them and they go to 1:27:26.800 --> 1:27:31.920 the next state supreme US Supreme Yeah, it wouldn't be. 1:27:32.320 --> 1:27:35.320 It would go state Supreme Um. It's a state statute 1:27:35.360 --> 1:27:37.200 and so never wind up. It could never go to 1:27:37.280 --> 1:27:39.479 a it could never go to a federal thing. You know. 1:27:39.520 --> 1:27:42.439 I don't think they'd be making a constitutional argument here. 1:27:42.520 --> 1:27:45.519 I suspect that this stays at an interpretation of state law, 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:47.240 and it it would go to the state Supreme Court, 1:27:47.280 --> 1:27:49.160 and that would probably be the end of it for 1:27:49.240 --> 1:27:52.760 that because we're talking about the application of of a 1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:57.400 of a state statute, criminal trespass statute. Are you tempted 1:27:57.479 --> 1:28:00.519 right now to do like um? You know, sometimes like 1:28:00.560 --> 1:28:03.000 big shot lawyers come in and do like so they 1:28:03.080 --> 1:28:05.200 do some grand standing by doing like a pro bone 1:28:05.240 --> 1:28:06.800 o deal and all that are you is that? Are 1:28:06.800 --> 1:28:09.040 you drawn? Are you are you feeling there's a lot 1:28:09.080 --> 1:28:10.880 of these cases, a lot of situations like this that 1:28:10.960 --> 1:28:13.160 are tempting. Yeah, for sure, tempting just to get in 1:28:13.200 --> 1:28:15.080 there and see what's going on. I haven't been asked, right, 1:28:15.120 --> 1:28:16.479 I haven't been asked. I don't know if I would 1:28:16.479 --> 1:28:21.600 be asked, but uh, yeah, it's interesting there. It's there 1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:23.080 are a couple other things on this that I think 1:28:23.080 --> 1:28:25.600 are worth knowing, right as far as why I'm in 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:28.720 specific law and corner crossing, so this they're they're being 1:28:28.880 --> 1:28:31.759 prosecuting it, or criminal trespass statute. We have two different 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:36.280 We always several different trespass statutes. The criminal trespass is 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:39.800 one that, uh, the only way you get cited for 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:44.320 that is if you know you have so either the 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:49.160 landowner themselves or law enforcement UM have told you you 1:28:49.200 --> 1:28:52.479 can't be here, you're trespassing, you can't be here, or 1:28:53.000 --> 1:28:56.160 the landowner has posted signs making it very clear that 1:28:56.200 --> 1:28:59.080 you are not allowed to be there um. So it's 1:28:59.160 --> 1:29:02.719 it's incumbent upon the landowner to notify the person potentially 1:29:02.840 --> 1:29:07.200 entering the property that it's uh that they're violating. You know, 1:29:07.240 --> 1:29:09.320 that they don't want them to trespass in that case 1:29:09.360 --> 1:29:12.000 they can be cited in Wyoming, just his corner fence 1:29:12.040 --> 1:29:14.360 isn't enough. There might there might not have been a fencer. 1:29:14.400 --> 1:29:17.200 So what I understand my understanding of this particular one, 1:29:17.240 --> 1:29:18.800 and I might have the facts around, but I've been 1:29:18.800 --> 1:29:21.320 briefed a little bit on it, right, was that there's 1:29:21.320 --> 1:29:24.040 a survey pin but no fence, and that he actually 1:29:24.120 --> 1:29:27.559 used a step ladder like you're talking about right, uh, 1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:32.160 and so never touched the ground on that's yeah, supercrafty, right, 1:29:32.520 --> 1:29:35.880 And if it's the spot I think it is. There 1:29:36.160 --> 1:29:38.160 there had been some tea posts jammed into the ground 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:40.280 with no no trespassing on the private side to make 1:29:40.320 --> 1:29:44.000 it impossible to squeeze through, so you actually the only 1:29:44.040 --> 1:29:46.160 way you could do it was to go over the top. 1:29:47.439 --> 1:29:50.599 So it was actually it may have taken a little 1:29:50.600 --> 1:29:54.320 forethought to to do this. Um, but why do you 1:29:54.360 --> 1:29:56.800 seem like you seem mildly uncomfortable? Are you just not 1:29:56.880 --> 1:30:00.120 at all? I love it? Like you're like you're so 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:02.720 you've dealt a lot with water stuff. Yes, okay, hit 1:30:02.760 --> 1:30:05.400 me with the water thing that like floating down the river. Oh, 1:30:05.560 --> 1:30:08.320 there's it's different in every state. No, I mean, let's 1:30:08.320 --> 1:30:10.800 stick with Wylming. What you do? You do a lot 1:30:10.800 --> 1:30:13.240 of water rights issues. So why has no one ever 1:30:13.360 --> 1:30:15.800 since my disclaimer, I can't speak on behalf of like, 1:30:15.960 --> 1:30:18.160 First of all, I'm not on Turney. Second of all, 1:30:18.200 --> 1:30:20.439 like as I can give you opinions, let me ask 1:30:20.439 --> 1:30:24.040 you some yes or no questions. Okay, are you or 1:30:24.080 --> 1:30:27.719 are you not an expert in water rights? I'm gonna 1:30:27.720 --> 1:30:35.719 say no, bullshit? Man. You know I actually I actually 1:30:35.720 --> 1:30:37.559 practiced water loft for like eight years. But I thought 1:30:37.560 --> 1:30:44.599 that your whole deals that'sfferent rights. That's different like waters 1:30:44.640 --> 1:30:46.639 of the US and things like that. I can talk 1:30:46.680 --> 1:30:48.599 about waters of the state, waters the US, I can 1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:50.599 talk about the arguments in but when you're talking about 1:30:50.600 --> 1:30:52.840 water rights, you're typically talking about an individual's right to 1:30:52.840 --> 1:30:54.400 pull water. That is that what I meant? I meant 1:30:54.680 --> 1:30:59.800 floating down the river? Yeah, no one's challenged. Why has 1:30:59.840 --> 1:31:05.200 no old landowner said, um, those people coming down my 1:31:05.479 --> 1:31:08.559 river are in my airspace. Please give them a ticket. 1:31:09.200 --> 1:31:11.439 Why have they not done? What I think has happened 1:31:11.680 --> 1:31:14.240 is I think we've carved out an exception the way 1:31:14.240 --> 1:31:16.560 we did for that the f a A A did for 1:31:16.560 --> 1:31:19.439 for navigable airspace and we did the same thing for 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:24.759 navigable water, so we've effectively created an exception navigable waters. 1:31:24.760 --> 1:31:26.360 They belonged to the waters of the US, and we've 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:28.519 the reason that we've made that hook is the fact 1:31:28.560 --> 1:31:31.599 that they are navigable waters. Could you really say, well, 1:31:31.760 --> 1:31:33.920 we're calling them navigable waters, but we're gonna tell you 1:31:33.920 --> 1:31:37.679 can't navi I'm saying that that little lens of water 1:31:38.120 --> 1:31:42.840 negates the little lens of water you're in the waters airspace. 1:31:43.720 --> 1:31:47.760 That's exactly right, Right, that's that's the theories. But but right, 1:31:48.120 --> 1:31:52.080 could you say, could you say there that there is 1:31:53.280 --> 1:31:54.720 he was being coy. He doesn't know a thing. The 1:31:54.760 --> 1:31:57.600 thing is Dave, Honestly, Like I'll say this, Dave is 1:31:57.680 --> 1:32:00.240 better at the stuff than anybody I know on Earth. 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:01.920 And like there's some of these issues that like you 1:32:01.960 --> 1:32:04.599 haven't even touched on yet that I'm hoping, like I'm 1:32:04.600 --> 1:32:06.120 sitting here with a kind of a grand waiting for 1:32:06.120 --> 1:32:07.840 the chance to get you to talk about a different 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:11.160 legal issue in Wyoming that Dave is really really good at. 1:32:11.200 --> 1:32:13.360 But like, Dave is the man on this stuff, and 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:15.800 so I could I can tell you what I think 1:32:15.840 --> 1:32:17.160 and what I know and half of what I know 1:32:17.240 --> 1:32:20.960 comes from sitting in a car and with Dave talking 1:32:21.000 --> 1:32:23.920 about suppressors while he tells me about trespassing. Do you 1:32:23.960 --> 1:32:28.760 guys do it at the same time? Basic probably just 1:32:28.800 --> 1:32:30.600 talking right over each other, all right, So go on, 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:34.360 all right. So the last piece I was gonna say 1:32:34.439 --> 1:32:39.080 is Okay, so water, we've created this exception for navigability, 1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:43.120 like this navigable waterway, right, that creates an exception. We've 1:32:43.160 --> 1:32:46.599 done it for airspace. Um, there's a quite there's still 1:32:46.600 --> 1:32:49.760 a question about how far that air space comes down, right, 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:52.240 And you know there's some Supreme Court case law from 1:32:52.240 --> 1:32:56.639 the nineteen forties, uh that that kind of suggests that. 1:32:57.840 --> 1:33:01.200 And it's specific to airplanes, right, but as long as 1:33:01.240 --> 1:33:03.160 you don't and I mentioned it earlier, as long as 1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:06.240 you don't disrupt the enjoyment of that private land, meaning 1:33:06.320 --> 1:33:10.040 you're not harassing livestock or you're causing major problems uh 1:33:10.080 --> 1:33:14.880 to the landowner. Uh that if you're in that airspace, Uh, 1:33:15.720 --> 1:33:18.680 you're not violating that property. Right now, that hasn't been 1:33:18.680 --> 1:33:21.080 fully played out. This was very specific to airplanes. That 1:33:21.160 --> 1:33:23.799 wasn't to foot traffic, and it was you know, seventy 1:33:23.800 --> 1:33:27.000 five years ago. UM. But I do have a question 1:33:27.000 --> 1:33:28.880 that I think and I don't have an answer to this, 1:33:29.160 --> 1:33:32.400 but like we've carved out a space for airplanes for 1:33:32.479 --> 1:33:35.240 navigable water or for air we've carved out a space 1:33:35.280 --> 1:33:39.160 for navigable water. Um, we haven't talked about foot traffic 1:33:39.160 --> 1:33:41.920 as a means of navigability of public of a public 1:33:41.920 --> 1:33:43.920 trust resource. Because what we're talking about here is a 1:33:44.000 --> 1:33:46.720 public trust resource of airspace to move commerce and so forth, 1:33:46.720 --> 1:33:49.400 a public trust resource of water, uh to move on. 1:33:49.479 --> 1:33:52.679 And we have a public trust resource of land uh 1:33:52.760 --> 1:33:55.519 so air water and land, and we haven't decided that 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:58.240 land piece yet. UM. But it gets back to the 1:33:58.320 --> 1:34:00.800 sort of come back to that, you know, interpret a 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:03.960 statute with absurd results. And I you know, if if 1:34:04.000 --> 1:34:06.600 I were making an argument and I'm not providing right, 1:34:06.680 --> 1:34:08.800 I'm not providing legal advice or just having a conversation 1:34:08.800 --> 1:34:12.200 about you know what ifs right? Uh, which is another day, 1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:16.280 but yeah, just another day. But I'd consider making that 1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:20.960 case that uh, it's another form of navigability of a 1:34:21.720 --> 1:34:25.439 UM of a public resource, right of a public trust resource. 1:34:25.680 --> 1:34:27.200 I want people to understand. I want to put I 1:34:27.240 --> 1:34:31.880 want to put some superlatives on here. Sure this is 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:36.320 not to degrade or de mean any of the work 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:40.880 done by conservation pro access organizations that do a lot 1:34:40.920 --> 1:34:43.120 of great land acquisitions. Like in a minute, need I 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:45.120 was going to tell us about this eight thousand acre 1:34:45.280 --> 1:34:49.840 property in Utah, which is super cool. Okay, um, Rocky 1:34:49.880 --> 1:34:52.360 Mountain ELK Foundation is set aside. I don't know whether 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:55.599 the hell they at now. I mean absurd millions numbers 1:34:55.640 --> 1:34:58.720 of acres that the Rocky Mountain Olk Foundation, Yeah, has 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:01.320 like raise money to bo I and to open to 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:06.200 public access ducks unlimited enormous amounts of acreage that they've 1:35:06.200 --> 1:35:08.479 bought and handed over to public access. Like all that's 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:15.760 that's great, But in terms of a single act that 1:35:15.840 --> 1:35:20.639 would increase public access, there's nothing that would come close. 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:27.240 In the next ten generations of humans, Nothing would come 1:35:27.280 --> 1:35:34.559 close to a broad scale clarification of the ownership of 1:35:34.560 --> 1:35:38.320 that airspace. In terms of foot traffic, you would be 1:35:38.400 --> 1:35:44.120 opening up literally hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of acres, 1:35:44.200 --> 1:35:47.280 millions literally millions of acres. You just have to find 1:35:47.280 --> 1:35:50.000 the right person and the right case. You have to 1:35:50.000 --> 1:35:54.000 find the right opportunity, the right attorney, right person, it's interesting. 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:57.760 There's another issue a lot like this in Wyoming. Go on, Well, 1:35:57.800 --> 1:36:02.400 in Wyoming, you can't hunt willderness areas if you're not 1:36:02.400 --> 1:36:04.800 a president without a guide. Oh man, I got a 1:36:04.800 --> 1:36:06.439 lot to say on that. We've covered that one and 1:36:06.479 --> 1:36:08.880 I've even explored it with Dave, but not not on 1:36:08.880 --> 1:36:11.400 your podcast. No, I know. But you know what I did. 1:36:11.160 --> 1:36:13.679 I summed up a thing you explained to me once 1:36:13.840 --> 1:36:16.479 I was asking you. We talked about this recently and 1:36:17.600 --> 1:36:19.280 I mentioned I don't think I mentioned you by name. 1:36:19.280 --> 1:36:21.519 I mentioned something you explained to me where I was 1:36:21.560 --> 1:36:23.960 always going to like with certain rules, I'm like, well, 1:36:23.960 --> 1:36:27.800 why what were the arguments for and against? And you 1:36:27.840 --> 1:36:31.599 had explained to me that when it comes to legislative action, 1:36:32.640 --> 1:36:38.400 they don't memorialize all of the wise then memorialize the outcome. 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:40.839 But no one like puts down like here's the pros 1:36:40.960 --> 1:36:43.120 that someone so raised and here's so when you go 1:36:43.160 --> 1:36:45.040 back to something that's been in existence for a long time, 1:36:45.120 --> 1:36:48.479 you don't have an accurate record of who argued, what point, 1:36:48.920 --> 1:36:51.160 and what were they really getting at. It's just you 1:36:51.200 --> 1:36:53.879 just know what they came up with. I was explaining 1:36:53.880 --> 1:36:56.360 that might I might mutilated that that's right because I 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:58.080 was asked you like, why what was the argument for 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:00.639 and you're like, I can't go tell you the arguments. Yeah. Yeah, 1:37:01.040 --> 1:37:03.320 we did talk about that at some point. If you want, 1:37:03.680 --> 1:37:06.480 we can talk about what I think the legal vulnerabilities 1:37:06.520 --> 1:37:08.400 to that law are. I know you think it's vulnerable. 1:37:08.680 --> 1:37:11.599 I've I've got a couple now, I think I've talked 1:37:11.640 --> 1:37:13.360 to you before about at least one. But I know 1:37:13.439 --> 1:37:16.760 if I've got a couple of legal vulnerabilities to that law, um, 1:37:16.920 --> 1:37:18.680 explain the law. When do you explain the law? And 1:37:18.720 --> 1:37:20.840 then when you explain the vulnerable be done with corner 1:37:20.880 --> 1:37:23.640 crossing if you are I mean, I was trying to 1:37:23.720 --> 1:37:26.160 lay a huge superlative on it. Yeah. Oh. The other 1:37:26.200 --> 1:37:27.760 part is they're there. They are partly that I think 1:37:27.800 --> 1:37:31.080 that that the the the sporting community, the access community 1:37:31.160 --> 1:37:33.320 needs to be prepared for, is they need to be 1:37:33.320 --> 1:37:39.160 prepared for the fact that UM fences are often laid 1:37:39.200 --> 1:37:43.960 down in terms of people eyeballing things. They're laid down 1:37:44.000 --> 1:37:47.479 in terms of convenience. You might if you have like 1:37:47.479 --> 1:37:51.000 a finger ridge coming off a ridge hundred and thirty 1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:53.639 years ago, some guy might have run his fences down 1:37:53.680 --> 1:37:55.640 the finger ridge because it was an approximate, It was 1:37:55.640 --> 1:37:57.720 approximately right, and it was a hell of a lot 1:37:57.800 --> 1:38:00.360 of easier than running it down some rocky you draw 1:38:00.400 --> 1:38:04.400 where you couldn't put a post in. Uh, if this 1:38:04.520 --> 1:38:07.920 became a thing, we need to be prepared for, like 1:38:07.960 --> 1:38:11.920 I said, and overcoming a lot of issues around like 1:38:12.200 --> 1:38:15.120 marking surveying. It doesn't mean that you just jump up 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:17.800 to any two fences that come together. Those fences could 1:38:17.880 --> 1:38:22.120 literally those fences could be a hundred feet off. So 1:38:22.280 --> 1:38:25.040 it's not just a matter if you hopping fences everywhere. 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:29.719 It would take some like educated doing to avoid conflict. 1:38:30.040 --> 1:38:32.080 That was my last point I was gonna you made that. 1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:34.760 It made me think of something that would create I 1:38:34.800 --> 1:38:38.960 can create a little hyperbole out of this something. Uh 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:41.479 if you do this, you said, we'd go out there 1:38:41.479 --> 1:38:46.280 and survey every corner and we know right. Um. One 1:38:46.360 --> 1:38:49.599 consequence of that is when you do when you just 1:38:49.640 --> 1:38:52.120 described what you described of all of these fences running 1:38:52.120 --> 1:38:56.280 in different places, like you may just open a can 1:38:56.400 --> 1:39:00.400 of worms on adverse possession claims and just pitt like 1:39:00.479 --> 1:39:03.840 just people fighting over like hey, you know what your 1:39:03.880 --> 1:39:10.400 neighbor is grazing section, Like you start doing that and 1:39:10.400 --> 1:39:14.439 find out where these corners actually are, like like just 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:20.360 can open worms everywhere across poem about the dudes building 1:39:20.360 --> 1:39:23.479 the fence, it's called fence building or something. There's two 1:39:23.479 --> 1:39:25.960 guys like did it come together every year and rebuild 1:39:26.000 --> 1:39:30.760 the stone fence between their properties. People should revisit that 1:39:30.800 --> 1:39:34.720 poem in the line he's like old stone. He like 1:39:34.920 --> 1:39:37.519 basically they're like friendly thing. And as you get into 1:39:37.520 --> 1:39:39.880 the poem, it's like he he puts it like these 1:39:39.920 --> 1:39:45.439 old stone savages still out there, you know, wielding their 1:39:45.479 --> 1:39:49.640 stone weapons. But yeah, fence building. Anyways, there could be 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:51.160 a lot of people who got over it a hundred 1:39:51.240 --> 1:39:55.960 years ago, and then you'd reinvigorate the dispute. The only 1:39:56.320 --> 1:39:58.640 the very last thing I'd say is at least in 1:39:58.680 --> 1:40:00.599 wy I mean, and I think Montana tried this two 1:40:00.760 --> 1:40:05.640 years ago. Legislature actually tried to introduce a bill to 1:40:06.360 --> 1:40:13.880 legalized formally legalized teen in Montana. Um both failed. Both 1:40:13.920 --> 1:40:16.719 efforts failed. There was a reverse effort effort in Wyoming 1:40:16.720 --> 1:40:19.679 at one point to formally ban it, to make it illegal. 1:40:19.960 --> 1:40:24.240 That also failed. So everybody's everybody's like, we don't don't 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:27.519 really politically nobody wants to touch it. If that came back. 1:40:28.240 --> 1:40:30.320 If that came back up now in this state, I 1:40:30.320 --> 1:40:31.960 bet you could tip it the other direction because it 1:40:32.040 --> 1:40:36.519 was that voting like in the legislature was it wasn't 1:40:36.520 --> 1:40:39.080 a ballot and ship not every state has access to that, 1:40:39.560 --> 1:40:41.760 and even then it could be very problematic to pass 1:40:41.800 --> 1:40:43.800 them through the ballot initiatives. You could tip it through 1:40:43.800 --> 1:40:49.040 public education because you have a lot of people who, um, 1:40:49.160 --> 1:40:52.160 you have a lot of people who are deeply incentivized 1:40:52.560 --> 1:40:57.120 financially and otherwise that they want that land for themselves. 1:40:58.680 --> 1:41:01.080 And I can imagine if something like that came up, 1:41:01.520 --> 1:41:05.559 you'd have a lot of people who were felt like 1:41:05.760 --> 1:41:11.160 acutely very personally threatened, and a lot of other people 1:41:11.280 --> 1:41:15.920 who were sort of vaguely supportive. But you're gonna have 1:41:16.000 --> 1:41:19.160 people who are really gonna want to fight because they 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:24.400 might be um basically running you know, outfitter businesses on 1:41:24.560 --> 1:41:27.640 what would be public land because they no one can 1:41:27.680 --> 1:41:30.679 get to it except them because they lease a joining parcel. 1:41:30.720 --> 1:41:32.720 You're gonna have some people they're gonna fight tooth and 1:41:32.840 --> 1:41:35.720 nail to block that, and you're gonna have a lot 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:38.080 of hunters who are just sort of like, oh, that'd 1:41:38.080 --> 1:41:39.599 be cool, like a corner hop, but I'm not gonna 1:41:39.600 --> 1:41:42.000 get all involved. Yeah, and that's a hard thing to 1:41:42.000 --> 1:41:44.840 do to write. You're you're talking about something that is 1:41:44.840 --> 1:41:49.280 going to inherently put the hunting community against the landowner community, 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:52.960 where the hunting community in most of the country really 1:41:53.000 --> 1:41:55.840 depends on the landowner community for accessing opportunity. And even 1:41:55.840 --> 1:41:57.400 in the West where you have a lot of public land, 1:41:57.920 --> 1:42:00.719 still some of the best places can be on private 1:42:00.800 --> 1:42:04.040 lands too, and you depend on those relationships. And you're 1:42:04.080 --> 1:42:06.639 you're talking about something that is some of the best places, 1:42:06.680 --> 1:42:09.040 I mean the best place well yeah, yeah, right, And 1:42:09.080 --> 1:42:12.559 so you're it goes to that, You're I think there's 1:42:12.600 --> 1:42:16.800 some political reluctance to do that because you're you're creating 1:42:16.800 --> 1:42:19.760 attention with those that you want to be natural allies. 1:42:20.320 --> 1:42:22.280 You want the lander community of the hunting community be 1:42:22.280 --> 1:42:25.080 on the same page with conservation and land owners to 1:42:25.120 --> 1:42:27.640 be supportive of hunting and allow access an opportunity. And 1:42:27.640 --> 1:42:30.240 you could be putting this, you know, creating a situation. 1:42:30.840 --> 1:42:32.639 I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying, there's 1:42:34.320 --> 1:42:36.920 that's why, that's why people are afraid. I think afraid 1:42:36.960 --> 1:42:39.920 to afraid is not the right right word, but maybe 1:42:39.960 --> 1:42:42.800 it is. It's there's a discomfort with taking on that 1:42:42.920 --> 1:42:45.960 issue at a legislative level. Oh, I feel I feel 1:42:46.040 --> 1:42:48.439 uncofortable talking about it. And the reason I feel uncomfortable 1:42:48.439 --> 1:42:50.880 talking about it um and I had and I have 1:42:50.920 --> 1:42:52.880 to like psyche myself up to talk about it. The 1:42:52.880 --> 1:42:55.320 reason I feel uncomfortable talking about it is I have 1:42:56.040 --> 1:43:01.360 um cordial, very respectful relationships with a lot of landowners 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:05.680 who would look at that and probably feel threatened. And 1:43:05.720 --> 1:43:07.240 so I'm like, man, I don't want to Like, I mean, 1:43:07.280 --> 1:43:08.960 that dude's a good dude. Let's it's on his place. 1:43:08.960 --> 1:43:10.599 I don't want to piss them off by talking about it. 1:43:10.720 --> 1:43:13.040 But I also feel like in terms of if I 1:43:13.080 --> 1:43:15.720 have like an obligation to um, if I have an 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:19.799 obligation to my audience, it would be to um explain 1:43:19.880 --> 1:43:22.920 to them things that are that matter to them a lot. 1:43:23.800 --> 1:43:25.439 And and I feel like I have an obligation to 1:43:25.479 --> 1:43:28.640 talk about it. But it's Thorny's ship. Yeah, I have 1:43:28.680 --> 1:43:31.080 a question, and I don't know that it directly relates 1:43:31.120 --> 1:43:34.000 to this, but I noticed that on X, which we 1:43:34.160 --> 1:43:36.280 use a lot of in Wisconsin, and I use it 1:43:36.280 --> 1:43:39.240 in Michigan for hunting. Why is it that the on 1:43:39.560 --> 1:43:42.800 X map, which I assume is very accurate up to 1:43:43.280 --> 1:43:47.960 a meter or less, shows that where the property lines were, 1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:50.320 they are no longer Because I noticed that some of 1:43:50.320 --> 1:43:53.640 our property has expanded and on one of our neighbors 1:43:53.680 --> 1:43:55.880 who used to have thought he had ten acres now 1:43:55.960 --> 1:43:58.559 has like seven point four acres. Yeah, so this is 1:43:58.600 --> 1:44:04.280 a so I mean that pre political world, Like I 1:44:04.320 --> 1:44:06.800 actually worked doing mapping work for U s c A, 1:44:06.880 --> 1:44:10.439 n RCS for a long time and that's like my background. 1:44:10.520 --> 1:44:14.200 And the reality is because on X isn't perfect, and 1:44:14.240 --> 1:44:15.720 so when you look at on X, what you're looking 1:44:15.760 --> 1:44:17.479 at is on X goes out when they get that 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:20.639 mapping information. They're collecting that mapping information from a host 1:44:20.720 --> 1:44:25.920 of different entities, people, counties, federal agencies. And what ONYX 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:28.480 did that's magical is they're putting it all on one database. 1:44:28.560 --> 1:44:30.479 So you can pull it all from one database. But 1:44:30.560 --> 1:44:32.000 you can't. And this is the other problem. You can 1:44:32.080 --> 1:44:35.599 assume that that database is right because it isn't. So 1:44:35.880 --> 1:44:41.960 it's not reliable. It's not foot I'm putting my left 1:44:42.000 --> 1:44:45.000 foot on public in my right foot is not. So 1:44:45.120 --> 1:44:47.400 that's what people to think that that's the issue is 1:44:47.439 --> 1:44:49.880 it has to do with the accuracy level of the mapping. 1:44:49.880 --> 1:44:52.080 And that's the other problem with this is because even 1:44:52.120 --> 1:44:55.960 your phone, unless you have a like a base station 1:44:56.040 --> 1:44:58.840 in a pickup truck that's kicking out sub you know, 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:03.160 inch level accuracy, your phone is going to be off 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:05.240 by a couple of meters. The guy who went out 1:45:05.320 --> 1:45:06.679 did the map may have been off by a couple 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:08.880 of meters. So it's not just the map, right, I mean, 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:11.800 it's the map could be totally accurate, map could be 1:45:11.800 --> 1:45:13.840 a hundred like make this assumption. The map could be 1:45:13.840 --> 1:45:17.840 a d accurate, but the satellites aren't. Ye. The satellites 1:45:18.240 --> 1:45:20.960 telling you where you are on that map might be 1:45:21.000 --> 1:45:24.719 within a meter whenever you look at the six inches 1:45:24.760 --> 1:45:27.479 you need to be. Every map is an abstraction of reality, 1:45:27.560 --> 1:45:29.720 right though the Earth is a circle with hills and 1:45:29.760 --> 1:45:31.679 everything else like that on and you're getting a different 1:45:31.880 --> 1:45:34.599 called a projection of that. Every time you're you're looking 1:45:34.640 --> 1:45:37.720 at a map, you're looking at a false representation of 1:45:37.760 --> 1:45:39.880 what it really exists in reality. And that's why this 1:45:39.920 --> 1:45:42.559 gets to like all these infinitely, like you just can't 1:45:42.600 --> 1:45:46.719 be perfect, and that's why you've got to really watch yourself. 1:45:46.720 --> 1:45:47.920 You can't just be like, oh, yeah, I've got this 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:50.080 handheld unit now, so I must be fine. So you 1:45:50.120 --> 1:45:52.320 tell the game warden, I'm okay to be here. I've 1:45:52.320 --> 1:45:58.840 got my GPS unit. You can't do that because how depends. 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:04.280 So that's the next question. We're actually corner pretty act, 1:46:04.360 --> 1:46:09.920 they're pretty good. Everything's gonna everything has. Any landownership claim 1:46:10.000 --> 1:46:11.760 is going to default to something. So if it's like 1:46:11.800 --> 1:46:13.320 survey and you put a corner pin, there has been 1:46:13.320 --> 1:46:16.320 like a baseline understanding which you can stop arguing when 1:46:16.320 --> 1:46:19.680 your legal descriptions are based on a professional survey. Like 1:46:19.680 --> 1:46:21.599 the legal descriptions that you put in the contracts when 1:46:21.600 --> 1:46:23.320 you sell a piece of property are based on the 1:46:23.320 --> 1:46:24.960 surveys that are done out in the pin that's stuck 1:46:24.960 --> 1:46:26.840 in the ground and the projection that that pin was 1:46:26.880 --> 1:46:29.080 basing all in there, and so it's all part of 1:46:29.160 --> 1:46:30.680 legal d The problem is, like when you get it 1:46:30.680 --> 1:46:33.280 on your phone, you're not often working in the same project. 1:46:33.320 --> 1:46:36.240 You're not. It's just an assumption. We'll have to realize 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:40.080 that in this world where we think everything is your fingertips. 1:46:40.160 --> 1:46:43.240 It's not as cut and dried as you appreciate that answer, 1:46:43.280 --> 1:46:45.880 because that's always puzzled me. And I didn't know what 1:46:45.920 --> 1:46:48.519 to tell the neighbor. I said, well, you just lost it, 1:46:48.560 --> 1:46:54.840 you know on fence thing. Uh, we're recently out on 1:46:54.880 --> 1:46:56.880 the place a rancher, I know when he's got I 1:46:56.920 --> 1:47:00.439 know he had two fences with his boundary with the neighbor. 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:03.920 I don't know. There's like six ft apart for long 1:47:04.160 --> 1:47:08.800 ass ways. And I later said to him, Uh, what's 1:47:08.840 --> 1:47:10.880 what's up with you in your neighbor having the double fence? 1:47:12.160 --> 1:47:14.280 This is a trivia question. Why do you think they 1:47:14.320 --> 1:47:16.320 got a double defence? It was because of the Eastman 1:47:16.400 --> 1:47:18.719 or because they could drive cattle on mortar more easily, 1:47:21.320 --> 1:47:27.400 bulls breeding cows through the fence. Oh well, and they 1:47:27.400 --> 1:47:31.360 needed six ft of space. I didn't know. I didn't 1:47:31.360 --> 1:47:32.519 go over there and measure it, but I was like, 1:47:32.560 --> 1:47:34.240 why do you guys have Like did you like each 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:36.160 put your own? Like what what's up with that? And 1:47:36.160 --> 1:47:38.680 he goes, oh, no, it was an issue with they 1:47:38.720 --> 1:47:41.320 were putting whatever and I had I traditionally ran my 1:47:41.479 --> 1:47:43.240 one or the other, like I ran my bulls and 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:45.599 they had something going on over there, and blah blah blah, 1:47:45.600 --> 1:47:47.439 and they just put a buffer there to reduce some 1:47:47.479 --> 1:47:52.559 of the tensions, the tensions between the herds like neighbors 1:47:52.640 --> 1:48:06.120 right there. All right, if I break down this, there's 1:48:06.320 --> 1:48:08.280 we started with a sad story where people are in trouble. 1:48:08.760 --> 1:48:12.240 Now we'll start Now we'll move to a happy access story. Access. Hey, 1:48:12.320 --> 1:48:15.519 you know what, hunter's access is the number one the 1:48:15.600 --> 1:48:17.960 number one thing and petty impeding people from participating in 1:48:18.040 --> 1:48:21.240 hunting or the shooting sports is access even shooting sports, 1:48:21.520 --> 1:48:23.760 nowhere to shoot, Yes, nowhere to shoot. So you don't 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:25.880 have access to either the expertise, you don't have somebody 1:48:25.880 --> 1:48:29.240 to teach you to do it right. That's a huge impediment. 1:48:29.479 --> 1:48:31.960 You don't have access to a community to be involved in. 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:34.840 That leads people to leave it. So you may, you know, 1:48:34.880 --> 1:48:38.000 live in a community like you're you're the guy outside. 1:48:38.080 --> 1:48:42.000 Nobody likes you anymore. Um. Access is access to ranges, 1:48:42.600 --> 1:48:47.120 access to ammunition, access to you know all that stuff. 1:48:47.120 --> 1:48:50.200 But yeah, in Utah, kind of a good access story. Um, 1:48:50.520 --> 1:48:54.280 same guy that we worked with to do the US 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:57.200 right to hunt fish, he also Casey Snyder last year 1:48:57.280 --> 1:49:02.360 did a random bill to um make it illegal debate 1:49:02.920 --> 1:49:07.120 big game animals on public lands. Awesome, Billy, Yep, he 1:49:07.320 --> 1:49:10.439 crushed it, and he had lots of support from a 1:49:10.520 --> 1:49:14.960 variety of public lands. So in Utah until last year, 1:49:14.960 --> 1:49:16.719 it was legally you could take a box of apples. 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:18.360 You could throw it on the ground in the middle 1:49:18.360 --> 1:49:20.360 of the sage brush in Utah, you could set a 1:49:20.360 --> 1:49:22.360 trail camera over at the talk to your cell phone. 1:49:22.400 --> 1:49:24.760 You could sit there and wait for animals to show 1:49:24.840 --> 1:49:26.960 up at that bait site and then go out and 1:49:26.960 --> 1:49:29.439 shoot the animal this is a mule deer or a 1:49:29.479 --> 1:49:32.439 trophy elk. And at the same time you could also 1:49:32.479 --> 1:49:36.120 sell that location information and so trade. You know. Casey, 1:49:36.240 --> 1:49:38.920 to his credit, took on a lot of you know, 1:49:39.000 --> 1:49:42.160 a lot of flak and interest. No, dude, he is 1:49:42.560 --> 1:49:44.799 he is a he's the man. He's a real champion 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:46.760 those issues. Well, he also took on in Utah this 1:49:46.920 --> 1:49:49.960 eight thousand acres. So the use of state lands is 1:49:49.960 --> 1:49:52.840 a big issue. You know, are they public lands? Aren't 1:49:52.840 --> 1:49:55.519 they in a variety of states, And in Utah they 1:49:55.560 --> 1:49:57.400 faced a lot of challenges there and they had a 1:49:58.240 --> 1:50:01.120 eight thousand acres in the Cinnamon Cree Drange is what 1:50:01.200 --> 1:50:03.200 it was called, and it's one of the few real 1:50:03.400 --> 1:50:07.719 public accessible areas in northern Utah. It's in Casey's district. 1:50:08.280 --> 1:50:11.479 Was going up for at least sale and quota, and 1:50:11.560 --> 1:50:13.840 Casey was able to put together a to work with 1:50:13.880 --> 1:50:15.960 a bunch of other people, including the Department of Natural 1:50:15.960 --> 1:50:20.320 Resources there in Utah, to um win that lease so 1:50:20.360 --> 1:50:24.000 that eight thousand acres now will be a wildlife management 1:50:24.080 --> 1:50:26.800 unit that where people can where the public can go hunt. 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:28.360 When you say at least how long is the lease, 1:50:28.800 --> 1:50:31.760 I don't know the answer to that question. I'd be speculating. Uh, 1:50:31.760 --> 1:50:35.599 it's you know, so I'm not going to but they're 1:50:35.640 --> 1:50:37.760 still working on the issues. It's you know, so for 1:50:37.800 --> 1:50:39.479 people who live in Utah and who are interested in 1:50:39.520 --> 1:50:42.679 these issues, they need your support at the legislative level. 1:50:42.760 --> 1:50:44.600 And so this is a pitch is a lobbyist, and 1:50:44.600 --> 1:50:47.080 I'm gonna make a lot to people, which is, if 1:50:47.080 --> 1:50:51.360 these are issues you care about, respectfully, call your legislators 1:50:51.400 --> 1:50:55.160 and talk with them respectfully about these issues, because you know, 1:50:55.240 --> 1:50:58.280 nothing poisons your issues more than calling and yelling at somebody, 1:50:58.280 --> 1:50:59.920 and nothing helps them better than hearing that you have 1:51:00.000 --> 1:51:02.960 actually care and you know that they're a real person 1:51:03.439 --> 1:51:06.799 and for in this case that you know as cases 1:51:06.800 --> 1:51:09.280 putting together the stuff to you know, carry this through 1:51:09.400 --> 1:51:13.240 the legislature in the spring, you know, call your legislators 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:15.759 and tell them to support you know, that effort, support 1:51:15.800 --> 1:51:18.960 those bills. Here's who all kicked in significant funding meal 1:51:19.000 --> 1:51:22.599 to your foundation, Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife, Rocky Mountain, 1:51:22.600 --> 1:51:27.240 Elk Foundation, Nature Conservancy, State of Utah, and US Fish 1:51:27.240 --> 1:51:37.479 and Wildlife Service. Pretty cool. So if you live in Utah, congratulations. Yes, 1:51:38.920 --> 1:51:43.400 all right, okay, here's one for you. I don't know 1:51:43.439 --> 1:51:45.120 if you want to answer this as your job or 1:51:45.120 --> 1:51:48.479 answered as you well, so we'll see what it is 1:51:48.520 --> 1:51:50.560 first and then we'll later on I'll tell you what 1:51:50.640 --> 1:51:52.040 you want it was after I get in trouble for 1:51:52.080 --> 1:51:55.880 it or don't. Yeah, so next next week I'll be like, oh, 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:58.599 by the way, that was ni Fi. Yeah, has nothing 1:51:58.640 --> 1:52:02.240 to do In fact, it wasn't. It was some other guy, 1:52:02.360 --> 1:52:07.240 some guy like them. Uh. What was your being into 1:52:07.240 --> 1:52:11.320 the firearms industry um and working on policy and also 1:52:11.439 --> 1:52:16.880 you know, public opinion? What was your take on the 1:52:17.360 --> 1:52:23.720 Alec Baldwin movie set shooting? I mean it was stretched 1:52:23.720 --> 1:52:27.000 in every imaginable What a terrible tragedy direct, I mean, 1:52:27.000 --> 1:52:29.400 that's the most the thing to say, is what a 1:52:29.479 --> 1:52:32.240 terrible tragedy? Uh, none of us, I don't think sitting 1:52:32.280 --> 1:52:35.760 around this table certainly know all the details. I'm sure 1:52:35.800 --> 1:52:38.960 that it's an ongoing legal issue with lots of stuff 1:52:39.000 --> 1:52:41.000 going on there, and I think that everybody ought to 1:52:41.000 --> 1:52:42.880 be able to just step back from that and say, like, 1:52:43.560 --> 1:52:47.519 what a sad thing that changed a bunch of people's 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:51.040 lives permanently. And I think the best thing that you 1:52:51.040 --> 1:52:54.439 can possibly say about it is there are rules of 1:52:54.439 --> 1:52:59.519 firearms safety, and if everybody obeys those rules, this doesn't happen. 1:53:00.640 --> 1:53:03.559 And that's just reality, and you can just take that 1:53:03.640 --> 1:53:07.000 to the bank. You know, there's a level of education 1:53:07.040 --> 1:53:09.479 there and I'm not saying these you know everybody that 1:53:09.600 --> 1:53:12.799 was there was or was not educated. I have no idea, 1:53:13.400 --> 1:53:17.000 But what's the first rule of firearm safety? Every gun 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:20.519 is always loaded. You never point a firearm at anything 1:53:20.520 --> 1:53:23.080 you're not willing to destroy. You keep your finger off 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:26.200 the trigger. You don't shoot unless you're sure of what 1:53:26.240 --> 1:53:28.400 you're shooting at and what's beyond it. And so I 1:53:28.439 --> 1:53:30.479 think that rather, you know, if there's I can't say 1:53:30.479 --> 1:53:32.959 anything about that situation because I don't know all the particulars, 1:53:32.960 --> 1:53:35.400 but I can say for everyone listening, for all of 1:53:35.479 --> 1:53:38.519 us involved, no matter what we're doing with guns, obey 1:53:38.520 --> 1:53:40.720 the safety rules. And this has been thing, you know, 1:53:41.240 --> 1:53:43.800 a big thing NSSF. You know, if if I could 1:53:43.800 --> 1:53:47.240 brag about us just for a second, like safety issues 1:53:47.240 --> 1:53:49.880 are things that were huge on Project Child Safe Operations, 1:53:49.920 --> 1:53:53.680 secure store, own it, secure it, respect that those are 1:53:53.680 --> 1:53:55.680 all these are all initiatives that we have where we 1:53:55.840 --> 1:53:58.679 put big time work and money into trying to educate 1:53:58.720 --> 1:54:01.200 people on firearms, safe be on safe stories, on all 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:05.559 these things because really, uh, we all ought to be 1:54:05.560 --> 1:54:08.720 able to play in this firearms space safely. And that's 1:54:08.800 --> 1:54:11.679 we've demonstrated it since the nineteen fifties or furies, whatever 1:54:11.720 --> 1:54:13.120 you said, Like you can see it in the rates 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:15.400 of how we've gotten better at this and we can 1:54:15.439 --> 1:54:18.000 continue to do that if we're all willing to just 1:54:18.320 --> 1:54:22.120 you know, have a discussion about it, an educational discussion 1:54:22.160 --> 1:54:25.640 about it. It's you know, absent the political undertones, and 1:54:25.680 --> 1:54:29.000 so you know, it's again super sad, and it's ought 1:54:29.040 --> 1:54:30.920 to be an example to all of us to take 1:54:30.960 --> 1:54:33.200 a look at what our everyday practices are and just 1:54:33.280 --> 1:54:41.760 be better. I was surprised that that in those scenes 1:54:41.800 --> 1:54:47.400 you're using functioning firearms, and even that the same firearm 1:54:47.480 --> 1:54:50.240 might be used like for real and then later that 1:54:50.360 --> 1:54:53.880 day used as a prop. I you know, I can't 1:54:53.680 --> 1:54:56.000 And there are guys who are experts in the industry 1:54:56.000 --> 1:54:58.440 who have talked about this and have didn't articles about 1:54:58.440 --> 1:55:01.920 all that says naught. Yeah, and it is one of 1:55:01.960 --> 1:55:05.160 those things again, like you know, I'm not exactly sure 1:55:05.360 --> 1:55:08.000 other than hearsay like exactly what happened on that set. 1:55:08.040 --> 1:55:11.880 But I do know the industry honestly has best practices 1:55:12.520 --> 1:55:15.880 that mirror what we're talking about with the with the 1:55:16.200 --> 1:55:20.080 rules of firearms safety. They obeyed those rules in the industry, 1:55:20.160 --> 1:55:22.200 they obeyed best practices when you go to the right 1:55:22.240 --> 1:55:24.120 sets with the right people. And so I don't think 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:25.440 it would be fair. You know a lot of people 1:55:25.440 --> 1:55:27.240 have been like, oh, they need to quit, they need 1:55:27.240 --> 1:55:29.280 to use cartoon guns and stuff like that now, And 1:55:29.320 --> 1:55:31.720 I just think, you know, I'm not enough and an 1:55:31.720 --> 1:55:35.360 expert to say, uh, what everybody should or should not do. 1:55:35.440 --> 1:55:39.000 But I can certainly say that you know, there's a 1:55:39.000 --> 1:55:41.520 reason that you know, they have really good armors that 1:55:41.560 --> 1:55:44.960 they have. You know, a lot of these movies like 1:55:45.440 --> 1:55:48.200 you know, dudes who are like former guys from you know, 1:55:49.080 --> 1:55:52.600 the highest and military, or they're doing on site making 1:55:52.600 --> 1:55:55.680 sure that people are following these rules, and so I 1:55:55.760 --> 1:55:58.320 just think, like all of us just again, I'm not 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:01.080 going to criticize you know, what happened there, but I'm 1:56:01.080 --> 1:56:03.280 going to say, like it's for me, I have to 1:56:03.360 --> 1:56:06.640 think about, Okay, how do I work with the firearms 1:56:06.680 --> 1:56:08.960 that are in my safe, around my kids, around my friends, 1:56:08.960 --> 1:56:10.680 around my job, around the things that I'm doing, and 1:56:10.680 --> 1:56:12.440 just make sure that I'm doing the best practices that 1:56:12.480 --> 1:56:14.560 I can when I'm doing that. There was a lot 1:56:14.560 --> 1:56:17.520 of turmoil on that movie set aside from the day 1:56:17.720 --> 1:56:19.960 like there are walk offs and in the days before, 1:56:20.120 --> 1:56:22.720 like corners are being cut everywhere. It was just a 1:56:22.760 --> 1:56:25.600 horrible commation of things that came together in that one moment. 1:56:26.000 --> 1:56:29.480 But Steve that what you said, how you know guns 1:56:29.640 --> 1:56:32.760 are used for you know, shooting real bullets with like 1:56:32.840 --> 1:56:35.520 casings and powder and actual projectiles are then brought to 1:56:35.520 --> 1:56:37.839 a movie set to be loaded with blanks, and somehow 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:40.000 there was a live round with a casing and a 1:56:40.080 --> 1:56:44.600 bullet and powder in there. I that's that's how. I 1:56:44.920 --> 1:56:48.000 don't understand how that happened at all, it seems because 1:56:48.040 --> 1:56:50.720 normally they use blanks with with you know, a casing 1:56:51.000 --> 1:56:54.960 and powder that but no projectile and I I've used 1:56:55.000 --> 1:56:58.920 those on in movies and plays before. Well, reading about that, 1:56:58.960 --> 1:57:02.440 there's like a roll in tray that had AMMO plus 1:57:02.560 --> 1:57:07.440 unidentified AMMO, loose AMMO and a Fannie pack in the 1:57:07.720 --> 1:57:11.160 just like no. I mean some people know now because 1:57:11.160 --> 1:57:12.760 they're investigating it, Like I don't want to come in 1:57:12.760 --> 1:57:14.200 and like comment like this, that and there, I think, 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:19.440 but the impression one gets from reading about it from 1:57:19.440 --> 1:57:22.920 a law enforcement perspective, there were plenty of reasons to 1:57:23.400 --> 1:57:27.520 come in and say no harm it what like that 1:57:27.560 --> 1:57:30.960 seemed to be kind of them. From the people that 1:57:31.040 --> 1:57:33.360 I saw speak about it, We're like, it's very hard 1:57:33.400 --> 1:57:37.320 to untangle what exactly was going on here and with 1:57:37.480 --> 1:57:39.960 what was being used, how it was being managed, a 1:57:39.960 --> 1:57:43.560 lot of questions. But I have like two things. One 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:47.600 I felt that I had some commentary on two ways 1:57:47.600 --> 1:57:53.560 it was received. I think that maybe we're at a 1:57:53.600 --> 1:57:56.080 safe distance now. I was alarmed by the way in 1:57:56.160 --> 1:58:02.560 which the victim, someone would like a mother and husband 1:58:03.320 --> 1:58:06.280 died who had nothing to do in any of this 1:58:06.280 --> 1:58:10.840 ship right, are you talking about the cinematographer, Yeah, the 1:58:11.120 --> 1:58:14.680 director guy hit in the shoulder. He survived though, well okay, yeah, 1:58:14.720 --> 1:58:18.879 but I'm just saying he a mother like young children 1:58:19.360 --> 1:58:21.360 was killed. So it's like to me in a way 1:58:21.400 --> 1:58:25.240 when when everyone when it became so politicized, I looked 1:58:25.240 --> 1:58:28.360 at it and I kept thinking like, man, this there 1:58:28.440 --> 1:58:31.440 is not enough space. The way it was being utilized 1:58:31.480 --> 1:58:35.520 and weaponized. I felt people weren't taken the time to think, like, 1:58:36.000 --> 1:58:38.880 here's a person like at work for a paycheck who 1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:42.920 has young children who just died, and I don't know 1:58:43.000 --> 1:58:45.880 what her opinions are about any of this, but that 1:58:45.920 --> 1:58:49.120 needs to be paid attention to. Um. The other thing 1:58:49.200 --> 1:58:51.920 is I found on the other side of stuff? Is it? 1:58:52.200 --> 1:58:54.000 I think a lot of people had a lot of 1:58:54.000 --> 1:58:57.600 people who were struggling with why all this this from 1:58:57.720 --> 1:59:00.800 from the gun rights community, Why all this kind of 1:59:01.000 --> 1:59:06.440 you know, vehemency toward uh Alec Baldwin or towards the industry. 1:59:06.640 --> 1:59:09.280 It would be a little bit like I kind of like, 1:59:09.320 --> 1:59:12.839 in some ways like demonstrated hypocrisy where you have someone 1:59:13.360 --> 1:59:16.000 who questions, why why is anybody need these guns? Anyways? 1:59:16.080 --> 1:59:22.040 It's like, oh, unless they're making a movie, then it's cool, right, 1:59:22.160 --> 1:59:24.280 but then you would have one for something else is ridicular, 1:59:24.280 --> 1:59:25.920 You don't people don't need those things? Why do they 1:59:25.960 --> 1:59:28.280 need these things? But oh but no, I'm I'm a 1:59:28.320 --> 1:59:31.800 movie maker. It's it's fine for us, storyteller. That's good 1:59:31.800 --> 1:59:35.680 for us. People. We gottam laying out. We got somebody 1:59:35.760 --> 1:59:40.520 laying around. We don't know what the hell they are. No, no, no, no, no. 1:59:41.880 --> 1:59:43.760 That was a little I think that's where a lot 1:59:43.840 --> 1:59:48.000 of that just that's where a lot of that frustration 1:59:48.200 --> 1:59:50.080 came from. Was sort of there's that's kind of like 1:59:50.120 --> 1:59:53.680 glaring hypocrisy, which in people don't like there couldn't have 1:59:53.680 --> 1:59:56.280 been an easier target than Alec Baldwin either, like couldn't 1:59:56.320 --> 1:59:58.840 have been like a more so it's like for both 1:59:58.920 --> 2:00:01.680 both sides, it was just in insanity. Yeah, setting setting 2:00:02.040 --> 2:00:06.320 you know, that specific situation aside, like hey, teach your 2:00:06.360 --> 2:00:08.960 kids firearm safety, you know, don't don't hide from that, 2:00:09.000 --> 2:00:11.800 you know, take the opportunity to not just and you 2:00:11.840 --> 2:00:13.600 should be you know if you've got young kids in 2:00:13.600 --> 2:00:18.000 the home, you know, get a safe and if but 2:00:18.120 --> 2:00:22.360 also teach them firearms safety, you know, talk about these 2:00:22.400 --> 2:00:26.360 things and have a real discussion because um, not a 2:00:26.360 --> 2:00:28.280 lot of people in the world today want to do that. 2:00:28.320 --> 2:00:30.560 You know, these you know, guns are tabboo. We're not 2:00:30.560 --> 2:00:32.000 going to talk about guns. You know, we're not gonna 2:00:32.040 --> 2:00:33.920 deal with that. And like, the more we can do 2:00:34.080 --> 2:00:38.160 to like have you know, conversations that are intelligent about 2:00:38.360 --> 2:00:42.120 firearms and firearms safety, like we're just every day we 2:00:42.160 --> 2:00:44.360 do that, we live in a better country. I just 2:00:44.400 --> 2:00:48.440 finished a book like it's done done now about kids. 2:00:48.480 --> 2:00:52.960 Like it's called Outdoor Kids, Inside World, So it's about 2:00:53.000 --> 2:00:59.560 raising outdoor kids. And in the hunting section, I'll talk about, um, 2:00:59.720 --> 2:01:03.120 how you communicate about guns with kids. And one of 2:01:03.160 --> 2:01:06.480 the things that uh, I've just really strive to do 2:01:07.200 --> 2:01:09.440 is we have never taken the attitude that these are 2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:14.400 that that guns are like these magical things. Right, They're 2:01:14.440 --> 2:01:17.480 they're not capable of magical acts. It's like it's a 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:20.400 thing you can understand very well, and we're gonna talk 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:23.600 about how they function, how you handle them safe. We're 2:01:23.600 --> 2:01:26.560 not going to create like they're not fetishized. They're not 2:01:27.400 --> 2:01:31.400 attributed with magical powers. If you look at them wrong, 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:36.560 something will happen. It's like like a functional, practical understanding 2:01:36.680 --> 2:01:39.680 of what it is, what's safe, what's not safe. How 2:01:39.720 --> 2:01:41.960 it would be that you would hurt someone with one, 2:01:42.400 --> 2:01:44.880 and talk about in a very realistic sense. Yeah, my 2:01:45.080 --> 2:01:46.640 I have an eight year old and eleven year old, 2:01:46.640 --> 2:01:51.320 both little boys, and both you know, have been to 2:01:51.360 --> 2:01:53.560 the range so many times I can't even count, and 2:01:53.920 --> 2:01:55.720 have been. You know, my eleven year old now has 2:01:55.720 --> 2:02:02.040 gone on his first hunts, and you know, like those kids, 2:02:02.080 --> 2:02:05.120 like they know, and so it makes it much easier 2:02:05.640 --> 2:02:09.440 because they've got that familiarity and they've seen what a 2:02:09.520 --> 2:02:12.600 firearm can do, and so this, you know, they know 2:02:13.320 --> 2:02:15.880 when they go to somebody's house, like it's much easier. 2:02:15.920 --> 2:02:17.840 They've had those conversations. They know why they're supposed to 2:02:17.880 --> 2:02:20.240 walk away, they know why they why these things aren't toys, 2:02:20.240 --> 2:02:22.040 they know why they call grown ups. They know all 2:02:22.080 --> 2:02:24.520 those things, And I just think those are healthy conversations 2:02:24.520 --> 2:02:27.280 to have. They shouldn't be we shouldn't hide from them. Okay, 2:02:27.320 --> 2:02:29.480 we're gonna do uh, We're gonna jump into some quick 2:02:29.520 --> 2:02:32.360 hitter stuff. Not everything we're gonna bring up as quick 2:02:32.400 --> 2:02:36.640 hitters is as important and warrants as much discussion as 2:02:36.680 --> 2:02:38.560 we've already done anyway. But just an interest of time, 2:02:38.600 --> 2:02:40.440 I want to do some quick hitter stuff. I'm gonna 2:02:40.440 --> 2:02:43.080 bounce some more ears to the other. There'll be contests 2:02:43.080 --> 2:02:50.240 who can do it quick as hit ni fi? What? Why? 2:02:50.240 --> 2:02:56.600 Why is there no AMMO? Yeah? Is a giant? Is 2:02:56.600 --> 2:03:00.280 it a vast conspiracy? Twelve million people bought fire arms 2:03:00.320 --> 2:03:02.440 for the first time since the beginning of that have 2:03:02.520 --> 2:03:04.720 never owned a gun before in their entire lives. They 2:03:04.720 --> 2:03:07.240 tend to train more than people who traditionally owned guns. 2:03:07.760 --> 2:03:10.240 And if those twelve million people each bought a box 2:03:10.280 --> 2:03:12.400 with a hundred rounds of ammunition, and that's a billion 2:03:12.640 --> 2:03:15.600 new rounds of ammunition in demand on the market in 2:03:15.640 --> 2:03:18.240 the last two years that didn't exist before. The reason 2:03:18.240 --> 2:03:22.600 you can't find AMMO is because America changed significantly in 2:03:22.640 --> 2:03:25.920 the last two years, and the and the people that 2:03:25.960 --> 2:03:31.200 bought those guns were increasing minorities, women, they were Republicans, 2:03:31.240 --> 2:03:35.720 they were Democrats, and it's changed, and it's taken the 2:03:35.720 --> 2:03:38.400 company's time to be able to to to ratchet up 2:03:38.400 --> 2:03:41.280 to match to match the demand. That was phenomenal. I'm 2:03:41.320 --> 2:03:43.400 gonna get you another quick hit, okay, but I have 2:03:43.440 --> 2:03:52.600 a question on that. How many people buy six at 2:03:52.680 --> 2:03:56.240 least look at looking around the table, because here's here's 2:03:56.240 --> 2:03:58.600 what's been explaining. Let me do, let me try, and 2:03:58.600 --> 2:04:00.280 then you tell me where I'm right and wrong. This 2:04:00.320 --> 2:04:03.400 doesn't kind of gets my time, do you don't? Ammunition 2:04:03.480 --> 2:04:08.840 manufacturer needs to tool up and they run runs of 2:04:08.880 --> 2:04:14.240 certain loads and calibers, calibers and there's like huge demand 2:04:14.360 --> 2:04:17.440 and huge deficits and certain things, and so they're running 2:04:17.760 --> 2:04:20.520 those things that have the greatest need from the greatest 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:23.480 amount of retailers. People are clamoring for it, and it 2:04:23.600 --> 2:04:26.280 makes it that you don't have the luxury of stopping 2:04:26.440 --> 2:04:28.760 to tool up for what might be regarded as a 2:04:28.760 --> 2:04:31.240 more esoteric round. How is that very good? If you 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:34.680 want to know what guns Americans own, look at the 2:04:34.680 --> 2:04:38.080 shelf and the ammal you can see back on the shelf. 2:04:38.120 --> 2:04:40.400 That's what guns Americans is, not what they don't own. 2:04:40.600 --> 2:04:41.960 You want to look like, why is no one by? 2:04:42.080 --> 2:04:45.240 Why why can't I find Wheeland? Nobody has a thirty 2:04:45.480 --> 2:04:47.280 six anymore? I haven't been I haven't seen one of 2:04:47.280 --> 2:04:49.480 those on the shelves, And like, my kid just took 2:04:49.480 --> 2:04:52.760 possession one on Friday. You guys grainy ammo to use 2:04:52.800 --> 2:04:56.400 with it. We're worried about that, but he's got some 2:04:57.080 --> 2:05:02.640 um okay uh the next one, Dave, Oh, I had 2:05:02.680 --> 2:05:05.480 a like a second second, well, I had kind of 2:05:05.520 --> 2:05:09.280 another quick hitter. Am a quick hitter thing. Never mind, 2:05:09.280 --> 2:05:12.720 it's too it's too well, Okay, you open up around. 2:05:12.760 --> 2:05:15.320 Is there a worry that if they do all the 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:18.120 steps to ramp up production that the market will drop 2:05:18.120 --> 2:05:20.080 out and they'll be left like with this new facility 2:05:20.080 --> 2:05:23.840 that's half finished. I can't answer that question. I think 2:05:24.040 --> 2:05:27.480 yes and no, Like they're there. They are ratcheting, get up, 2:05:27.600 --> 2:05:29.520 but there like is this for real enough? Or we'd 2:05:29.520 --> 2:05:31.440 go and build a new plant. Yeah, but you know, 2:05:32.160 --> 2:05:34.120 but I can tell you that they are building the 2:05:34.120 --> 2:05:40.960 new plants, Dave. Uh, big infrastructure bill. Everybody fighting about it, 2:05:41.080 --> 2:05:43.120 getting mad at each other. They won't vote it if 2:05:43.160 --> 2:05:44.760 they can't vote for this, and they won't vote if 2:05:44.760 --> 2:05:47.160 they can't vote for that. But in the end, the 2:05:47.200 --> 2:05:51.640 infrastructure bill, I gather people in the conservation world had 2:05:51.720 --> 2:05:57.160 some cause for enthusiasm and excitement about the infrastructure bill. 2:05:58.320 --> 2:06:02.360 Wildlife enthusiasts they did. Why, uh, well, this is a 2:06:02.440 --> 2:06:06.600 quick hitter, right, So not to say that these aren't 2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:08.760 rich issues, but just in the interest of time, yeah, 2:06:09.120 --> 2:06:12.040 uh so their biggest things. So this passed, right, be 2:06:12.120 --> 2:06:15.520 clear that the infrastructure Bill was bipartisan and it passed 2:06:16.040 --> 2:06:20.800 UH in November, sometime in November, right, so it's it's done, 2:06:20.920 --> 2:06:23.400 it's happening. One of the biggest things in there is 2:06:23.440 --> 2:06:28.880 it created a grant program million dollar uh federal grant 2:06:28.880 --> 2:06:33.040 program for wildlife crossings, so competitive grant program around the country. 2:06:33.200 --> 2:06:35.920 States can use too. You know. So many states have 2:06:35.960 --> 2:06:40.360 been identifying places of get us like three crossings. Well 2:06:40.440 --> 2:06:43.480 so a crossing, so crossings can be underpasses, overpasses, and 2:06:43.520 --> 2:06:46.080 I believe overpasses are in that twelve to thirteen million 2:06:46.120 --> 2:06:49.240 dollar range apiece roughly now, so it actually gets you 2:06:49.360 --> 2:06:52.280 quite a lot um. Some overpasses cost a lot more. 2:06:52.320 --> 2:06:56.200 There's one that we're working on organizationally in California in 2:06:56.200 --> 2:07:01.000 the Los Angeles area, uh, for mountain lions actually, because 2:07:01.040 --> 2:07:04.560 there's this urban lion population. Calan's favorite subject, right, they 2:07:04.640 --> 2:07:08.280 get smacked by vehicles there. So fundraising for that right now. 2:07:08.760 --> 2:07:12.160 But but this will create resources for projects all over 2:07:12.200 --> 2:07:15.560 the country. UH. There's also a lot of of money 2:07:16.000 --> 2:07:19.880 available for forest restoration projects. So think about cheat grass 2:07:20.160 --> 2:07:25.000 and forest grassland UM sage brush, right, so cheat grass mitigation, 2:07:25.600 --> 2:07:30.320 UH forest uh you know, fire mitigation and things like that. 2:07:30.800 --> 2:07:34.200 A lot of money for that. UM there are there 2:07:34.200 --> 2:07:38.080 were things like UH force Legacy Road program funded. So 2:07:38.480 --> 2:07:42.520 there's money now to maintain forest roads, you know, some 2:07:42.560 --> 2:07:44.600 of the two track inventory roads that are out there. 2:07:44.640 --> 2:07:49.280 There's also money to decommission roads and restore that habitat. 2:07:49.520 --> 2:07:53.640 There's also money for culverts. And you don't think you think, well, culverts, 2:07:53.720 --> 2:07:56.840 what does that do well? Creating fish habitat and and 2:07:56.880 --> 2:07:59.360 helping fish movement. There's millions of dollars in there for 2:07:59.600 --> 2:08:03.760 culvert removal and replacement to allow in its particularly targeting 2:08:04.240 --> 2:08:08.879 fish movement UH too for largely for threatening endangered species 2:08:09.080 --> 2:08:12.680 fish species that have had their uh their movement cut off, 2:08:12.680 --> 2:08:15.760 but also for other UH species of fish as well 2:08:15.920 --> 2:08:18.680 game species that we might like to catch. Right that 2:08:18.680 --> 2:08:21.560 that that program is there for. So there's there's just 2:08:22.120 --> 2:08:23.800 there's all sorts of stuff that's as quick as I 2:08:23.800 --> 2:08:26.520 can be without going into lots of details, but there 2:08:26.560 --> 2:08:28.520 there are hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in 2:08:28.560 --> 2:08:31.600 the infrastructure package that go back directly to projects on 2:08:31.640 --> 2:08:36.600 the ground that will benefit uh, wildlife habitat and opportunities 2:08:36.640 --> 2:08:38.640 for hunters and anglers. Yeah, the next time you're sitting 2:08:38.640 --> 2:08:41.520 there making blanket statements about how terrible lobbyists are, keep 2:08:41.560 --> 2:08:45.440 in mind that when they were debating that bill, wildlife 2:08:45.440 --> 2:08:48.480 people were in the room saying, I understand, you need 2:08:48.520 --> 2:08:50.960 to cut a bunch of stuff out, but here's why 2:08:51.000 --> 2:08:53.880 you can't cut out the fish and wildlife stuff. Don't 2:08:53.960 --> 2:08:56.560 touch the fish and wildlife stuff. This is why it's important. 2:08:56.760 --> 2:08:59.360 If not if no one was putting a bag in 2:08:59.400 --> 2:09:01.920 their ear, they would have acted it. They would have 2:09:01.920 --> 2:09:05.400 acted and in favor of whoever was putting a bug 2:09:05.400 --> 2:09:07.360 in their ear about some other aspect that they cared about. 2:09:07.640 --> 2:09:09.480 And it was a lot of bugs in a lot 2:09:09.520 --> 2:09:11.480 of ears, right, I mean it was. It was the 2:09:11.640 --> 2:09:15.000 entire not just the hunting and fishing community, but the 2:09:15.040 --> 2:09:19.120 broader conservation community. Everybody rallied around this idea, especially around 2:09:19.160 --> 2:09:22.720 wildlife crossings, but a lot of these other pieces too. Uh, 2:09:22.800 --> 2:09:25.080 you know, it was an economic thing for wildlife crossings, 2:09:25.160 --> 2:09:27.400 like it was costing. I think the last report I 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:30.680 saw was vehicle collisions with wildlife for costing the economy 2:09:30.800 --> 2:09:33.640 something like six billion dollars a year. So just from 2:09:33.640 --> 2:09:36.960 an economic standpoint of three fifty million dollar investment in 2:09:37.680 --> 2:09:41.480 addressing a six billion dollar annual problem makes good business there. 2:09:41.720 --> 2:09:43.520 But also when you look at the sheer numbers of 2:09:43.560 --> 2:09:47.360 animals vehicle collisions that animals lost, you know, you think 2:09:47.400 --> 2:09:50.040 about that from an opportunity standpoint. As a hunter, you 2:09:50.080 --> 2:09:54.200 can't help but think, well, you know that Ford tourist 2:09:54.240 --> 2:09:56.600 smashed that deer, and then it goes some opportunity for 2:09:56.640 --> 2:10:00.040 somebody right to um food on the table, all that 2:10:00.120 --> 2:10:03.120 kind of stuff. So really, really some good stuff in 2:10:03.120 --> 2:10:05.360 that bill. So whether you they're gonna be, it's like 2:10:05.400 --> 2:10:07.440 any legislation that has a lot of things, and if 2:10:07.440 --> 2:10:10.520 they're gonna be things that make people angry and things 2:10:10.520 --> 2:10:12.240 that make people happy. But at the end of the day, 2:10:12.240 --> 2:10:16.920 the beauty of the bipartisanship is like, you know, I 2:10:16.960 --> 2:10:20.600 don't like this bill, but I like of it, so 2:10:20.640 --> 2:10:23.280 I'll support it. Then a lot of people get a 2:10:23.320 --> 2:10:26.800 lot of things out of it. Uh, need five. What 2:10:26.840 --> 2:10:32.200 will Pittman Robertson funding? Was that going to come in at? 2:10:32.240 --> 2:10:33.880 And like how long does that money take to hit 2:10:33.920 --> 2:10:38.000 the ground. Uh, it's gonna be a lot this last year. 2:10:38.640 --> 2:10:40.000 The money that we're getting at the end of this 2:10:40.080 --> 2:10:42.680 year is going to be over a billion dollars just 2:10:42.880 --> 2:10:45.560 from firearms and ammunition. It's the first time that doesn't 2:10:45.560 --> 2:10:47.960 include the Dingle Johnson stuff. It doesn't include anything but 2:10:48.160 --> 2:10:52.960 the firearms supportion. Over one billion dollars from from yes 2:10:53.200 --> 2:10:58.240 and so the and and and again. It's like, yeah, 2:10:58.520 --> 2:11:01.640 from this, can you imagine if it was all manage, 2:11:01.680 --> 2:11:04.320 if the shells are fully stocked. Did you know the 2:11:04.440 --> 2:11:09.920 largest contributor to Pittman Robertson is federal Oh yeah, yeah, 2:11:10.560 --> 2:11:14.040 the federal federal premium. Man. Yeah, I'm sorry the Feds 2:11:14.080 --> 2:11:18.440 not They're just huge and it's but yeah, it's uh, 2:11:18.640 --> 2:11:21.920 federal ammunition for sure. Yeah, it's it's over a billion dollars. 2:11:21.960 --> 2:11:24.160 That The big challenge is going to be, you know, 2:11:24.880 --> 2:11:28.520 for fish and wildlife agencies is going to making sure 2:11:28.560 --> 2:11:31.520 that they can meet the match because people always forget 2:11:31.520 --> 2:11:33.480 about this. So that money that comes in, that billion 2:11:33.480 --> 2:11:37.040 dollars eighty percent of that is from non hunters. It's 2:11:37.080 --> 2:11:39.520 from people who are buying who are sports shooters and 2:11:39.520 --> 2:11:42.360 people who are buying a defensive handgun just like they 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:45.720 did in the eighteen fifties. And so those triangle shape bulls, 2:11:45.760 --> 2:11:51.720 triangle shape of the market are those folks. And so yeah, 2:11:51.720 --> 2:11:54.160 that's the thing that like, that's an interesting point we've 2:11:54.160 --> 2:11:59.560 talked about before. We're hunters almost like to over recognize 2:12:00.320 --> 2:12:03.720 their pr contributions, and when you get down to like 2:12:03.760 --> 2:12:05.600 where that money is coming from is coming from shooters. 2:12:05.960 --> 2:12:10.240 But the caveat is that hunters or the match because 2:12:10.280 --> 2:12:13.200 you have to match that money. So hunters also by tags. 2:12:13.680 --> 2:12:15.680 So are you and I make up a smaller portion 2:12:15.760 --> 2:12:17.480 maybe as hunters we may make up You may make 2:12:17.560 --> 2:12:20.480 up a small portion state matching portion, yes, because you've 2:12:20.520 --> 2:12:23.160 got to bring for that billion dollars if we want 2:12:23.200 --> 2:12:25.440 to see that billion dollars on the ground, and conservation 2:12:25.840 --> 2:12:28.560 states have to pony up a billion dollars, they have 2:12:28.640 --> 2:12:31.000 to come. You have to get somebody else. You know, 2:12:31.040 --> 2:12:32.760 all of us at this table have to get one 2:12:32.800 --> 2:12:34.600 of our friends to buy a tag, whether or not 2:12:34.640 --> 2:12:37.080 they feel it or not, because if we want that 2:12:37.160 --> 2:12:40.120 money to then be able to be used that federal money. 2:12:40.360 --> 2:12:42.040 You got to match it, and there's some states that 2:12:42.080 --> 2:12:44.200 have done that in other ways. It doesn't have to 2:12:44.240 --> 2:12:47.720 be licenses, right, you can pass you know, Missouri has 2:12:47.720 --> 2:12:51.880 a one percent um sales uh. You know there's a 2:12:52.000 --> 2:12:55.160 tax that they put towards conservation recreation issues. So there 2:12:55.200 --> 2:12:57.600 are other ways to do it um. But states need 2:12:57.640 --> 2:12:59.200 to be really inventive and they need to get on 2:12:59.240 --> 2:13:04.640 the ball because we don't see that it hasn't slowed down. David, 2:13:04.640 --> 2:13:06.520 I'm gonna let you pick a pick and choose here. 2:13:08.160 --> 2:13:10.120 Do you want to do a quick hit on restoring 2:13:10.160 --> 2:13:14.800 America's Wildlife Act? Which one is more more titilating to 2:13:14.840 --> 2:13:18.160 you that or revisiting legal issues around wolves and bears, 2:13:19.080 --> 2:13:21.680 or you could do it too for it too for. 2:13:23.400 --> 2:13:26.720 I'd love to touch on both of them. So recovering 2:13:26.720 --> 2:13:30.720 America's Wildlife Act, we're talking about Pittman Robertson. And you 2:13:30.760 --> 2:13:32.160 know I told you about at the very beginning this, 2:13:32.200 --> 2:13:34.400 I told you about the founding of of National Wildlife 2:13:34.400 --> 2:13:37.120 Federation and how one of the first things was addressing 2:13:37.120 --> 2:13:40.600 this need for more resources to help him these species 2:13:40.600 --> 2:13:44.200 that were struggling well, the refrain, you know, eighty years 2:13:44.480 --> 2:13:48.360 later is it's similar. Right, we have Pittman Robertson and 2:13:48.360 --> 2:13:52.240 we have license fees, and we still have twelve thousand 2:13:52.360 --> 2:13:56.200 species of what are species of special concern that I 2:13:56.280 --> 2:13:59.080 I had been identified by states through what are called 2:13:59.160 --> 2:14:02.400 State Widelife Action Plans, where every ten years they're identifying 2:14:02.480 --> 2:14:05.120 the species in their state that are of the most concern, 2:14:05.200 --> 2:14:07.400 that need the most investment, and and where you can 2:14:07.440 --> 2:14:10.320 do some conservation work to to help support those species. 2:14:10.320 --> 2:14:13.320 Doesn't mean they're threatened or endangered or threatened with becoming 2:14:13.520 --> 2:14:16.480 endangered a federally listed species. It just means the state 2:14:16.640 --> 2:14:19.560 views them as at risk and there needs to be 2:14:19.600 --> 2:14:22.480 an investment. Well, we don't have the money for sports. 2:14:22.520 --> 2:14:26.120 Sportsmen and women are been paying Pittman Robertson fees for 2:14:26.720 --> 2:14:30.040 UH for eighty years, right, and and we don't have 2:14:30.080 --> 2:14:32.560 the resources you know that that that's supposed to go 2:14:32.600 --> 2:14:34.320 to not only the species we hunt and fish, but 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:38.200 everything else. Right, So enter Recovering acas Wildlife Act, which 2:14:38.360 --> 2:14:41.640 the idea was to amend the Pittman Robertson Act to 2:14:41.640 --> 2:14:45.600 create this new fund UH that would be used to 2:14:45.720 --> 2:14:50.760 help states implement those uh state wildlife action plans to 2:14:50.880 --> 2:14:54.240 help conserve the non game species. And then so that 2:14:54.240 --> 2:14:57.080 would free up a bunch of money, uh for hunter 2:14:57.120 --> 2:14:59.640 and angler dollars to put, you know, to take out 2:14:59.640 --> 2:15:02.240 of that pot potentially that right now we're paying to 2:15:02.320 --> 2:15:05.040 manage all species through our hunter tags. And maybe now 2:15:05.080 --> 2:15:07.440 that'll come back in and be able to dump more 2:15:07.440 --> 2:15:11.800 into mule deer and pronghorn conservation, moose conservation, and then 2:15:12.320 --> 2:15:13.880 you know, we have this new pot of money that 2:15:13.960 --> 2:15:19.240 could be used for uh, everything else, right and uh 2:15:19.400 --> 2:15:22.200 and so right now, like in the Senate, it's been 2:15:22.280 --> 2:15:24.440 it was this bill was introduced earlier this year in 2:15:24.480 --> 2:15:27.560 the Senate. It has thirty two co sponsors right now 2:15:27.600 --> 2:15:31.000 as we're talking, sixteen Republicans, fifteen Democrats and an independent 2:15:31.560 --> 2:15:33.800 and you listen. Is one of those cases where with 2:15:34.040 --> 2:15:37.160 Fosberg from TRCP is explained to us during like highly 2:15:37.240 --> 2:15:41.760 partisan nothing can get done times, sometimes real good common 2:15:41.800 --> 2:15:45.000 sense conservation work gets taken care of because it lets 2:15:45.040 --> 2:15:48.200 you have it gives them a chance to have a win. Yeah, 2:15:48.280 --> 2:15:50.480 And this is a the biggest hang up on this, 2:15:50.520 --> 2:15:52.200 I think for the longest time on getting this passed 2:15:52.280 --> 2:15:53.440 was how are we going to pay for it? And 2:15:54.920 --> 2:15:58.120 I think there's identified in a way to pay for it, 2:15:58.120 --> 2:16:03.120 which uh, which comes out of UM federal revenues generating 2:16:03.200 --> 2:16:06.520 from violations of environmental and natural resource laws and regulations. 2:16:06.560 --> 2:16:10.040 So it's so it's programs administered by the e P 2:16:10.160 --> 2:16:14.760 a environmental protection agency, you know, they levy fines for 2:16:14.760 --> 2:16:18.400 for violations environmental violations, goes into this big pot. And 2:16:18.400 --> 2:16:20.040 now we're saying we're gonna take part of that that's 2:16:20.040 --> 2:16:25.160 not already going to the general treasury to funds you know, schools, highways, whatever, 2:16:25.760 --> 2:16:28.160 and we're gonna say, you know what, maybe what this 2:16:28.200 --> 2:16:31.800 should be used for. They created the problem by violating 2:16:31.840 --> 2:16:33.879 the law and creating these cleanups that we need to 2:16:33.879 --> 2:16:36.000 do it. Maybe maybe having some of that money diverted 2:16:36.040 --> 2:16:38.840 to going back into wildlife conservation isn't a bad way 2:16:38.879 --> 2:16:41.959 to do this, right, So that's sort of the the 2:16:42.000 --> 2:16:44.960 pay for and and it seems to have pretty broad support. 2:16:45.000 --> 2:16:48.520 I mean, you have real politically diverse senators that have 2:16:49.040 --> 2:16:52.680 signed onto this UM, and like I said, it's got momentum, 2:16:52.720 --> 2:16:55.760 it's got you equal number, you know, the one independent 2:16:55.800 --> 2:17:00.560 typically caucuses with with Democrats. So you really have sixteen 2:17:00.760 --> 2:17:04.879 and sixteen, you have this. This really it's as bipartisan 2:17:04.879 --> 2:17:06.960 as you can get. And so the question is it 2:17:07.000 --> 2:17:10.640 is it going to happen? And Uh, hopefully, like you said, 2:17:10.680 --> 2:17:12.440 maybe one of these common sense things that just lines 2:17:12.520 --> 2:17:14.600 up and happens. And and uh that's one of the 2:17:14.600 --> 2:17:17.879 things that we we've been working on as an organization 2:17:17.920 --> 2:17:21.200 for years and and a lot of other organizations, you know, 2:17:21.240 --> 2:17:24.320 I know uh ni FIS with National Shooting Sports Foundation 2:17:24.360 --> 2:17:26.280 has been engaged in this too, and they're like that 2:17:26.680 --> 2:17:30.560 this is something that the entire UH conservation community, from 2:17:30.560 --> 2:17:34.879 the sporting groups to trade associations to broader conservation organizations 2:17:34.879 --> 2:17:37.920 that like they're they're all rallying around this. It's in it. 2:17:38.560 --> 2:17:41.480 It'll be a game changer, an infusion of something at 2:17:41.480 --> 2:17:44.640 one point four billion dollars a year into UH into 2:17:44.680 --> 2:17:47.480 the States to manage these species that right now are 2:17:47.520 --> 2:17:51.640 just woefully underfunded. Yeah, bears and wolves, bears and wolves. 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:53.480 So how do we want to talk so that there's 2:17:53.520 --> 2:17:55.480 just a lot going on around that right now, right 2:17:55.560 --> 2:18:00.000 that could that could just open up rabbit holes. Uh, 2:18:00.200 --> 2:18:03.119 you know, you've got the so you've got the state 2:18:03.120 --> 2:18:06.920 of Wyoming's petitioned now to delist grizzly bears in the 2:18:07.080 --> 2:18:11.720 in the Greater Yellstone area. Um, well, this is yeah, 2:18:11.760 --> 2:18:13.560 well I think this is the first time they've actually 2:18:13.600 --> 2:18:15.840 formally petitioned. Every other time it was the Fish and 2:18:15.840 --> 2:18:21.240 Wildlife Service that initiated a rulemaking process and formally proposed delisting. Uh. 2:18:21.560 --> 2:18:23.240 In this this is the first time that what happened 2:18:23.360 --> 2:18:25.880 that the State of Wyoming has actually taken the initiative 2:18:25.920 --> 2:18:28.920 to petition the Fish and Wildlife Service. So there's two ways, 2:18:29.160 --> 2:18:31.640 the petitioning the Fish and Wilife Service to do something 2:18:31.680 --> 2:18:33.800 that the Fishing Walafe Service already tried to do twice. 2:18:34.040 --> 2:18:36.080 They tried to do the health differences that make that 2:18:36.120 --> 2:18:37.840 you petition to do it. They already tried to do it. 2:18:39.640 --> 2:18:44.320 I agree. I'm just no, I I agree, uh right. 2:18:44.400 --> 2:18:48.959 But perhaps the maybe the state was thinking, we don't 2:18:49.000 --> 2:18:52.520 know if this administration is going to try again. And 2:18:52.800 --> 2:18:55.320 the only two ways under the Act to to start 2:18:55.320 --> 2:18:57.920 a process are either on the initiative of the Fish 2:18:57.920 --> 2:19:01.120 and Wildlife Service or somebody some geting a petition that 2:19:01.200 --> 2:19:04.080 requires the Subfishing Walize Service to act. And so if 2:19:04.120 --> 2:19:06.480 they suspected that the Fishing Wilife Service wasn't going to 2:19:06.480 --> 2:19:08.440 be interested in doing it, or what might delay might 2:19:08.440 --> 2:19:10.800 take a long time. Maybe the state said all right, 2:19:10.840 --> 2:19:12.560 well we're going to do it and force them to 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:16.320 do something. All right. The other thing that could you know, 2:19:16.320 --> 2:19:19.120 there's a legal calculus to it. Right, So in the past, 2:19:19.120 --> 2:19:21.000 when the Fishing Wilife Service does it, it means that 2:19:21.200 --> 2:19:24.840 any lawsuit arising out of that is typically filed in Washington, 2:19:24.879 --> 2:19:28.640 d c. Or in Montana. It goes to that court 2:19:28.640 --> 2:19:31.160 in Missoula, which will yeah, yeah, right. So so here 2:19:31.200 --> 2:19:34.640 the state of Wyoming submits the petition, if their petition 2:19:34.720 --> 2:19:38.280 is declined, then maybe they initiate the lawsuit in Wyoming 2:19:38.800 --> 2:19:43.000 Federal District court. Friend and who right, because the judge 2:19:43.000 --> 2:19:47.200 of Missoula always like they always find a way to say, ah, right, 2:19:47.280 --> 2:19:50.520 that seems to happen. Strange seems to happen. So that's 2:19:50.560 --> 2:19:53.360 the that's sort of where we are with Grizzly Bears. 2:19:53.560 --> 2:19:56.480 I'm just should you see that big list of that 2:19:56.560 --> 2:20:00.680 letter that went to um Deb Island and it was 2:20:00.720 --> 2:20:04.320 signed by what it was, Bernie Sanders is on there, 2:20:04.640 --> 2:20:07.760 I don't know, sixteen seventeen senators signed a letter calling 2:20:07.800 --> 2:20:11.840 for like instant re enlisting of the Gray Wolf. The Wolf. Yeah, yeah, 2:20:11.879 --> 2:20:14.680 I saw that. That's happened before. I know. I sent 2:20:14.760 --> 2:20:16.720 it to someone who kind of analyzes that stuff, and 2:20:16.720 --> 2:20:20.200 he said, I'm sure they're currying favor with the animal 2:20:20.280 --> 2:20:23.000 rights community who donated some money to them, and they're 2:20:23.040 --> 2:20:25.640 doing like a pointless thing that will lead nowhere so 2:20:25.680 --> 2:20:28.440 they can be like, see, I tried, I tried. Yeah, 2:20:28.560 --> 2:20:31.360 you know, that's happened before. There are other times where 2:20:31.920 --> 2:20:34.120 you know, members of Congress have done that. A little 2:20:34.120 --> 2:20:36.240 surprised to see old burn on there, man like being 2:20:36.320 --> 2:20:39.760 from like Vermont and everything. Really, she seems like you 2:20:39.800 --> 2:20:46.959 were really wasn't cretic wants to get Bernie Sanders on 2:20:47.000 --> 2:20:49.000 the show. And I'm like, tell me why and we'll 2:20:49.000 --> 2:20:51.680 do it. And maybe now she's got her in because 2:20:51.680 --> 2:20:56.640 he's on this letter. H that's funny. Uh. Yeah. So 2:20:57.440 --> 2:20:59.800 there's a ton going on with wolves though, right, And 2:21:00.360 --> 2:21:03.760 that's sort of a weird one to un weird web 2:21:03.800 --> 2:21:06.240 to unravel about all the different things going on with wolves. 2:21:06.720 --> 2:21:11.119 Uh you have so you have, uh, all the different 2:21:11.120 --> 2:21:12.760 state laws that are getting a lot drawing a lot 2:21:12.760 --> 2:21:16.039 of attention in Montana and Idaho on wolf hunding. Right, 2:21:16.040 --> 2:21:20.760 they're gonna kill them? Yeah? Right, that in your journal, 2:21:20.800 --> 2:21:22.920 I don't It's not like and then come back to 2:21:22.959 --> 2:21:25.080 it in a year too. We've covered it. We've covered it. 2:21:26.040 --> 2:21:30.199 We've covered quite heavily the discrepancy between what the rules 2:21:30.200 --> 2:21:33.000 are and how one would sum them up in a 2:21:33.080 --> 2:21:37.280 headline on USA Today. Right, So you've been through all 2:21:37.280 --> 2:21:41.040 that we've covered. Yeah. Um, but what you do have 2:21:41.320 --> 2:21:45.720 is like this now a really interesting situation where wolves 2:21:45.879 --> 2:21:52.080 in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Eastern Oregon, eastern Washington, Panhandle of Utah, like, 2:21:52.160 --> 2:21:58.920 that whole population was delisted prior to the prior administration 2:21:59.080 --> 2:22:04.440 doing a nationwide delisting rule that effectively delisted everything else nationwide, right, 2:22:04.920 --> 2:22:07.560 except for those that were already delisted in Mexican wolves 2:22:07.560 --> 2:22:11.400 and red wolves, but delisted everything else. I think that 2:22:11.520 --> 2:22:13.160 what that did is it created a little bit of 2:22:13.200 --> 2:22:15.960 an opening here. Uh. And so now you have this 2:22:16.040 --> 2:22:20.359 petition to relist gray wolves in the Western United States. 2:22:21.280 --> 2:22:25.800 Only instead of calling them a like right now, they 2:22:25.800 --> 2:22:28.720 were delisted as a distinct population segment in those in 2:22:28.760 --> 2:22:32.640 that area geographic area. I described. Since then, you've had 2:22:32.760 --> 2:22:36.480 movement of those wolves. Those wolves are you know, genetically 2:22:36.879 --> 2:22:40.400 you can find genetic connectivity between those wolves and wolves 2:22:40.400 --> 2:22:43.000 in western Oregon. We just got killed on I five 2:22:43.080 --> 2:22:46.240 after he walked across the Golden Gate Bridge in California 2:22:46.280 --> 2:22:49.039 near Yosemite, right like fifteen miles north of Yosemite National 2:22:49.080 --> 2:22:52.920 Parks something like that. Like these you're having this genetic interchange, 2:22:53.240 --> 2:22:55.400 be mixing up two wolves. There's a famous wolf running 2:22:55.440 --> 2:22:57.160 around California's got hit on the side of the road. 2:22:58.040 --> 2:23:00.920 That's the one I'm talking about. Um So, but what 2:23:01.000 --> 2:23:03.760 you have now is at the time wolves are reintroduced 2:23:03.800 --> 2:23:07.800 to Idaho and Wyoming, Central Idaho and Wyoming, like there 2:23:07.840 --> 2:23:10.160 was no genetic connectivity between any other worlds because there 2:23:10.240 --> 2:23:13.320 weren't wolves other places. Now those wolves have dispersed, You've 2:23:13.320 --> 2:23:15.720 had some other wolves dispersed from Canada, and you have 2:23:15.800 --> 2:23:19.480 these more genetically connected population and so now this petition 2:23:19.520 --> 2:23:23.039 to to realist is saying, you can't draw this distinct 2:23:23.040 --> 2:23:26.760 population segment the same way. It can't be Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, 2:23:26.840 --> 2:23:29.680 Eastern Oregon, and eastern Washington, northern Utah. It can't be 2:23:29.760 --> 2:23:34.200 that anymore. It has to be the west and by 2:23:34.240 --> 2:23:38.800 the way, when you draw that big, it hasn't recovered westwide. 2:23:39.000 --> 2:23:44.680 And so by delisting them nationwide actually created this opening 2:23:44.720 --> 2:23:48.400 to make a push to relist wolves in the entire 2:23:48.440 --> 2:23:52.279 Western United States. Um, and they can use your success 2:23:52.280 --> 2:23:55.360 again right right and then, and so what you're left 2:23:55.360 --> 2:23:56.920 with is, okay, so you have a petition out there, 2:23:56.959 --> 2:23:58.760 and the Service has to act on it in with 2:23:58.800 --> 2:24:00.800 any year under the endangers you sees act And so 2:24:00.879 --> 2:24:04.080 what's going to happen, right If what's gonna happen is 2:24:04.120 --> 2:24:07.200 whether they say yes they're warranted for listing or no, 2:24:07.320 --> 2:24:10.200 they're not warranted for listing. There's going to be a 2:24:10.280 --> 2:24:15.959 lawsuit filed. So next year this time, that's this you 2:24:15.959 --> 2:24:18.440 can write in the journal too. There's now going to 2:24:18.480 --> 2:24:20.920 be a lawsuit in the forum of whomever is choosing, 2:24:20.920 --> 2:24:23.760 whoever is filing it in somewhere in the Western United States, 2:24:24.560 --> 2:24:29.320 maybe Montana, to say you say that service says not warranted, 2:24:29.879 --> 2:24:32.480 that lawsuit will be filed in front of judge of 2:24:32.480 --> 2:24:34.959 their choosing, and we're just we just hit the reset 2:24:35.000 --> 2:24:39.560 button on wolves. My my opinion is we've hit the 2:24:39.560 --> 2:24:41.600 reset button on wolves and we're looking at probably in 2:24:42.160 --> 2:24:45.720 you know, another decade long fight. Uh, we'll see, we'll see, 2:24:46.400 --> 2:24:51.240 we'll see. That's my crystal ball, like you know, crystal 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:53.960 ball and tin tin hat at the same time. Right, 2:24:54.760 --> 2:24:56.920 it is sort of what I'm thinking we're looking at 2:24:56.959 --> 2:24:59.920 with That was one of the primary um we talked 2:25:00.080 --> 2:25:01.720 this last week where I was just talking about the 2:25:01.720 --> 2:25:03.760 the EBB and flow of things and like the ways 2:25:03.760 --> 2:25:06.680 of which is hard to find a win because I 2:25:06.760 --> 2:25:14.320 was disappointed when President Trump removed um the role this 2:25:14.480 --> 2:25:17.800 rule for tongas and opened up more of Congress National 2:25:17.879 --> 2:25:21.959 Forest for road building. I was disappointed by that, and 2:25:22.040 --> 2:25:26.320 I was happy to hear that the Biden administration is 2:25:26.760 --> 2:25:30.600 putting those rules back into place. At the same time. 2:25:30.640 --> 2:25:32.000 One of the things I've worried a lot about the 2:25:32.080 --> 2:25:37.560 Dan Biden administrations. I've worried that just some crazy wolf 2:25:37.680 --> 2:25:42.280 bear stuff is gonna come down. Um. But then other 2:25:42.280 --> 2:25:44.080 people say, like, well, it's not really like the way 2:25:44.120 --> 2:25:48.840 that those rules work. It's not really susceptible to four 2:25:48.920 --> 2:25:52.679 year administration changes. It plays out in a more slow way. 2:25:52.920 --> 2:25:54.240 Do you feel that that's safe to say or not 2:25:54.280 --> 2:25:55.520 safe to say, or let me let you put it 2:25:55.480 --> 2:25:58.520 in a more clear question, does having like if you 2:25:58.520 --> 2:26:01.600 have like Democrats hold Senate Democrats all the White House, 2:26:02.000 --> 2:26:04.520 is it a foregone conclusion that they're gonna walk back 2:26:04.600 --> 2:26:07.920 state management of wolves and bears or is it not 2:26:08.040 --> 2:26:10.080 something that they can just put their hands on the dial. 2:26:10.400 --> 2:26:15.080 I don't think, because it's so rarely happens. I don't 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:19.120 think that Congress jumps in here and does anything. I 2:26:19.160 --> 2:26:21.760 think you have. You'll you'll see political statement bills that 2:26:21.760 --> 2:26:24.840 you've already seen. You'll see political statement bills saying grizzly 2:26:24.840 --> 2:26:28.000 bears should be delisted, you know, a grizzly Bear Delisting Act, 2:26:28.040 --> 2:26:30.359 and you'll see statement bills of a grizzly Bear Protection 2:26:30.360 --> 2:26:32.760 Act that that would be along the lines of a 2:26:32.800 --> 2:26:35.920 bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. I don't think under 2:26:35.920 --> 2:26:38.800 the current current construction of Congress, even with with Democrats 2:26:38.840 --> 2:26:42.680 controlling both bodies of Congress, that either like that that 2:26:42.720 --> 2:26:45.480 effort could go anywhere, or if Republicans took control, that 2:26:45.480 --> 2:26:49.200 that effort could go anywhere. The place where where I 2:26:49.200 --> 2:26:50.560 think you have to watch it's what happens at the 2:26:50.600 --> 2:26:54.720 administration level. So and that process can play out quicker 2:26:55.080 --> 2:26:58.160 because you have timelines prescribed in the Endangered Species Act 2:26:58.160 --> 2:27:01.320 to respond to petitions, and then you have litigation. That's 2:27:01.360 --> 2:27:05.400 the part that gets protracted. But you have a petition, 2:27:05.480 --> 2:27:08.680 the Biden administration, by law, is required to respond to 2:27:08.720 --> 2:27:11.800 that petition in a statutorially prescribed period of time and 2:27:11.879 --> 2:27:14.800 do an analysis best based on the best available science 2:27:14.840 --> 2:27:19.480 as to whether wolves should be listed or not. And 2:27:19.520 --> 2:27:23.800 they'll have to answer that question, and that answer half 2:27:23.840 --> 2:27:25.760 of the people really like in the other half won't. 2:27:26.360 --> 2:27:29.080 And that's going to create a fight. And that's just 2:27:29.720 --> 2:27:34.800 that's just how our system works and why we have 2:27:34.959 --> 2:27:39.200 these perpetual fights about predators and almost no other federally 2:27:39.280 --> 2:27:44.040 listed species. It's always the charismatic species and typically predators. 2:27:44.680 --> 2:27:47.200 And uh yeah, so that's kind of where I think 2:27:47.240 --> 2:27:49.040 we are. I will tell you we should talk again 2:27:49.320 --> 2:27:52.240 in a few months, right because I'm finishing up a 2:27:52.360 --> 2:27:54.680 helping somebody write a book, and I'm finishing a book 2:27:54.720 --> 2:27:57.200 chapter where it's called Dave on wolves. No, it's on 2:27:57.280 --> 2:28:00.320 grizzly Bara. No, it's it's a it's a it's an uh, 2:28:00.400 --> 2:28:05.360 it's an analysis of My contribution to it is is, uh, 2:28:05.560 --> 2:28:07.840 how to use the Act in a different way to 2:28:07.920 --> 2:28:10.600 empower states or encourage states to be able to take 2:28:10.640 --> 2:28:14.080 on more of a leadership role in managing threatening endangered species. 2:28:14.520 --> 2:28:18.960 Um and uh, like my case study is grizzly bears, 2:28:18.959 --> 2:28:22.920 and I propose a solution for how you get grizzly 2:28:23.000 --> 2:28:27.960 bears back in state management even if they're listed. Okay, 2:28:28.000 --> 2:28:31.840 one last quick hit for you fellers. Uh your mountain 2:28:31.840 --> 2:28:35.800 podcast hit. Oh my goodness, Yeah, there is. For the 2:28:35.800 --> 2:28:38.040 next hour. This is what we're gonna talk. We were 2:28:38.040 --> 2:28:39.800 gonna be able to hide all of that. No one 2:28:39.879 --> 2:28:41.600 was ever going to find it, and it was gonna 2:28:41.640 --> 2:28:43.800 be to our better men. Know what better teaser, What 2:28:43.879 --> 2:28:46.680 better teaser than what we've been doing. Yeah, No, that's 2:28:47.200 --> 2:28:50.000 that's pretty much what Sonifine I and another buddy of ours, 2:28:50.280 --> 2:28:54.000 Mike McGrady. You know, three years ago, just just because 2:28:54.000 --> 2:28:56.760 we were leaving the Governor's office, we've been listening to 2:28:56.760 --> 2:28:58.480 a bunch of different podcasts and we thought, you know, 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:01.320 there's one they're all STUDI right, No, there's a lot 2:29:01.360 --> 2:29:04.200 of there's a lot of great podcasts out there. Um, 2:29:04.240 --> 2:29:06.520 but we actually did feel like there was one space 2:29:07.080 --> 2:29:10.600 that that wasn't completely occupied where we we could step 2:29:10.600 --> 2:29:13.480 in and provide value. And that was really providing from 2:29:13.480 --> 2:29:16.120 from a boots on the ground, like a guys in 2:29:16.160 --> 2:29:18.800 the trenches kind of approach of let's talk about the 2:29:18.879 --> 2:29:21.760 law and policy around a lot of these conservation issues 2:29:21.800 --> 2:29:24.959 at a state level and federal level. Uh. And so 2:29:25.000 --> 2:29:28.640 we we created this. You know, basically our tagline is, 2:29:28.760 --> 2:29:31.600 you know, every day things happen that affect your land, 2:29:31.600 --> 2:29:33.320 water and wildlife, and you should know about them. And 2:29:33.320 --> 2:29:35.480 that's where we come in and talk about all the 2:29:35.800 --> 2:29:38.040 policy nuances. So it's really kind of a walkout kind 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:41.200 of nerdy podcast called Your Mountain. And I don't know 2:29:41.200 --> 2:29:44.920 why we keep doing it. And yeah, you were gracious 2:29:45.080 --> 2:29:46.879 enough to be our first guest on that podcast three 2:29:46.959 --> 2:29:51.600 years ago and forty we've done a hundred forty plus 2:29:51.600 --> 2:30:00.720 now geez, yeah, we've we have as many episodes as listeners. Yeah. Yeah, 2:30:00.959 --> 2:30:04.000 we're moving up those charts. Available everywhere, come out. Yeah, 2:30:04.040 --> 2:30:06.720 that's the deal, available everywhere. When someone gives you a 2:30:06.760 --> 2:30:10.960 chance to plug yourself that. Yeah, it's been super fun. 2:30:11.000 --> 2:30:13.360 It's given us an opportunity. Before we left the Governor's office, 2:30:13.400 --> 2:30:15.000 we said, like, we want to stay in touch, we 2:30:15.000 --> 2:30:17.200 want to keep doing stuff together. And so this has 2:30:17.200 --> 2:30:19.120 been an excuse for us to sit down in a 2:30:19.280 --> 2:30:21.280 in a you know, in an office once a week 2:30:21.320 --> 2:30:24.120 at night and like spend an hour talking about like 2:30:24.160 --> 2:30:26.720 we had a whole episode you talked about corner crossing 2:30:26.720 --> 2:30:29.359 and it's kind of funny, Like we had an episode 2:30:29.400 --> 2:30:32.200 one eighteen we spent an hour in like forty minutes 2:30:32.600 --> 2:30:37.560 talking about that specific issue, you know, the wilderness rule. 2:30:37.600 --> 2:30:40.280 We talk about, you know, breaking down, pr breaking down, 2:30:40.360 --> 2:30:43.480 wot's breaking down, you know, E s A and in 2:30:43.760 --> 2:30:46.880 you know, four different episodes and stuff like you're welcome, 2:30:48.560 --> 2:30:51.879 and it's it's it's it's been super it's been super 2:30:51.920 --> 2:30:54.240 fun as friends to be able to I'm sure you 2:30:54.320 --> 2:30:56.080 get it. Like if you want to become the kind 2:30:56.080 --> 2:30:57.920 of person when you're driving down the road with your friends, 2:30:58.000 --> 2:30:59.840 you can be like, no, that's not how it works. 2:31:00.560 --> 2:31:02.480 Listen to your show, that's what you should do, and 2:31:02.600 --> 2:31:04.720 then you can tell people that's not what happens. Man. 2:31:04.720 --> 2:31:08.039 What happens is this first, it goes to the Supreme Court. Yeah, Like, 2:31:08.120 --> 2:31:10.920 if you want a nerdy podcast, this is understand trying 2:31:10.920 --> 2:31:12.080 to make it seem nerdy. I'm trying to make it 2:31:12.560 --> 2:31:14.720 to understand the nuts and bolts of everything, like that's 2:31:14.760 --> 2:31:17.080 that's what. It's a deep dive into the nuts and 2:31:17.120 --> 2:31:19.720 bolts of law and policy. Rather than being the kind 2:31:19.720 --> 2:31:22.680 of person who's like, well, no, they wanna it was 2:31:22.720 --> 2:31:25.680 like home, who who's they? It kind of gives you 2:31:25.720 --> 2:31:28.320 like an understanding of what is the what? It's been 2:31:28.360 --> 2:31:30.440 super fun and you were super cool, like it was 2:31:30.440 --> 2:31:33.600 funny you've been here ten years like it was again, 2:31:33.640 --> 2:31:36.520 it's just super it's been super fun for us to 2:31:36.520 --> 2:31:40.200 have that friendship and keep that connection. And you know, 2:31:40.360 --> 2:31:44.000 graciously you were, like Dave said, like our first episode, 2:31:44.040 --> 2:31:46.560 we flew out to visit you and we're like, we 2:31:46.600 --> 2:31:49.160 think we're going to do this podcast. Would you would 2:31:49.160 --> 2:31:51.160 you be our first guest? And so we went and 2:31:51.200 --> 2:31:53.720 sat down. That was very kind of you. And it's 2:31:53.760 --> 2:31:56.040 been how many years ago? Was at three and a 2:31:56.080 --> 2:31:58.160 half three and a half. I think three and a half. 2:31:58.440 --> 2:32:01.480 We started here left in me we started in May 2:32:01.520 --> 2:32:07.120 of nine. I don't even know. It's been three over 2:32:07.160 --> 2:32:10.680 three years now. So your Mountain podcast, Availa where podcasts 2:32:10.720 --> 2:32:14.200 are given away, that's right, Spotify, guys on Spotify. We 2:32:14.320 --> 2:32:18.760 are everywhere too. We're on Yeah, you should definitely subscribe 2:32:18.760 --> 2:32:21.200 to it no matter what, because that's really good for 2:32:21.200 --> 2:32:23.760 our egos. We don't monitor, so we do it for 2:32:23.879 --> 2:32:29.320 no monetization, zero zero. I'm gonna subscribe. What. No, I 2:32:29.360 --> 2:32:33.039 don't think it's I think it's great America. Actually, for 2:32:33.040 --> 2:32:34.560 for all you lawyers listening out there, there are a 2:32:34.600 --> 2:32:36.520 number of episodes where if you're a lawyer in Wyoming, 2:32:36.560 --> 2:32:39.240 you can get a CLI, a continuing legal education credit 2:32:39.280 --> 2:32:41.520 for your live license, exactly right, and you could probably 2:32:41.560 --> 2:32:43.920 apply for those in other states as well. A former 2:32:44.040 --> 2:32:47.160 senator used to make his staff listen to our podcast. 2:32:47.320 --> 2:32:50.640 Really yeah, and we've got we've got different Senate offices, 2:32:50.760 --> 2:32:52.800 or we know there are folks in the office that 2:32:52.800 --> 2:32:54.880 that listen to our podcast. Dare I say it's an 2:32:54.920 --> 2:32:58.480 insider's look? You may, you might, you may? You guys 2:32:58.520 --> 2:33:00.879 need to get you guys, Gonna put that, By the way, 2:33:01.000 --> 2:33:03.920 we're terrible marketers. If we knew how to market, we 2:33:03.920 --> 2:33:06.400 would we would say we would quote you now like 2:33:06.440 --> 2:33:09.320 Stephen and Ranella. Dare I say, dare I say an 2:33:09.360 --> 2:33:12.080 insider's podcast? But we haven't posted anything on our end 2:33:12.120 --> 2:33:14.080 of our social channels, and we don't even know I 2:33:14.120 --> 2:33:16.400 don't know who the passwords are. Forgot. It is there. 2:33:16.400 --> 2:33:18.440 It's up every wee there. We check it and we 2:33:18.480 --> 2:33:20.280 respond to all the emails and everything we get. But 2:33:20.680 --> 2:33:23.400 it's there almost every week. We've been kind of busy. 2:33:23.640 --> 2:33:27.560 Your Mountain podcast. Yeah, I appreciate that last thing. Next week, 2:33:27.640 --> 2:33:31.000 so listen, I know what happens to you people Christmas 2:33:31.080 --> 2:33:33.440 holiday because they're not you're not at work and all that. 2:33:33.560 --> 2:33:35.880 You don't listen to your podcast. But next week is 2:33:35.920 --> 2:33:43.160 our Christmas Holiday Extravaganza Extraordinary episode. So Christmas time all hectic, 2:33:43.200 --> 2:33:46.200 everybody's unhappy, arguing, trying to get your kids in the 2:33:46.200 --> 2:33:49.640 car to go see Grandma. Listen, don't forget us. We're there. 2:33:49.680 --> 2:33:52.920 Our Christmas gift to you. We have a Christmas gift 2:33:52.959 --> 2:33:56.480 to you. We're doing a double episode drop where you 2:33:56.480 --> 2:33:59.720 get your regular podcast, which is the Christmas Extraordinaire. But 2:33:59.760 --> 2:34:01.920 then we're gonna we're gonna throw down and have a 2:34:01.959 --> 2:34:06.800 Monster Trivia showdown episodes. Right, I can't wait. Episode It 2:34:06.800 --> 2:34:10.160 means two episodes, two episodes in one week. Phil, he's 2:34:10.160 --> 2:34:12.400 not gonna have any time. I guess Spencer's running trivia. 2:34:12.520 --> 2:34:15.640 Spencer gonna run trivia. Wow, and you're we have a 2:34:15.680 --> 2:34:19.080 special guest Matt Runella for the Christmas specially Yeah, and 2:34:19.080 --> 2:34:20.800 he might be in on trivia. I don't know. But 2:34:20.800 --> 2:34:27.120 we're gonna we're gonna debate social media, so a family argument, eggnog, ohole, 2:34:27.160 --> 2:34:29.680 kid caboodle. I can't wait, seem