Speaker 1: There's such a thing as knowing too much. You've been
Speaker 1: married to the President of the United States who knows
Speaker 1: everything about everything in the world. Sometimes you just the
Speaker 1: phenomenally successful author. Please welcome the former first Lady of
Speaker 1: these United States, Michelle Obama. I don't want people looking
Speaker 1: at me and Barack like hashtag couples goals. No, no,
Speaker 1: there are some broken things that happen even in the
Speaker 1: best of marriages.
Speaker 2: What is the thing that keeps you up at night? Now,
Speaker 2: before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
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Speaker 2: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
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Speaker 1: The number one Health and well inness podcast.
Speaker 2: Jay Sheetty Jay Shettye Only shet Hey, everyone, welcome back
Speaker 2: to On Purpose. Thank you so much for tuning in today.
Speaker 2: I am so excited for today's episode. But before we
Speaker 2: do that, make sure you subscribe so you never miss
Speaker 2: out on any future episodes. I've got so many more
Speaker 2: exciting guests that I can't wait for you to listen to.
Speaker 2: And today's guest is, of course, the one, the only,
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama. We're talking about her book, The Light We Carry.
Speaker 2: If you don't already have it, makes you go and
Speaker 2: grab it. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. Michelle.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me on purpose. This
Speaker 2: is such an honor. I'm so grateful to have you here.
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to be here. I'm a fan.
Speaker 2: Oh that means more to me than you know. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much, and I'll dive straight in. What is
Speaker 2: the best part about being you?
Speaker 1: I have never thought about that. That is a great question.
Speaker 1: I think my family, my friendships. I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that Barack and I we always talk about
Speaker 1: is that we're proud of the fact that we've kept
Speaker 1: our community. You know, people that we've known all our
Speaker 1: lives are still a part of that community that keeps
Speaker 1: us solid and keeps us whole and grounded. It's easy
Speaker 1: to lose your head on this journey that we've been on.
Speaker 1: And I think what keeps us focused is that we've had,
Speaker 1: we have some solid people in our lives, and we
Speaker 1: make it a point to cultivate those relationships and to
Speaker 1: learn to be intentional about them. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's probably one of the coolest things, is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I've got this big kitchen table of people who keep
Speaker 1: me focused and keep me honest.
Speaker 2: What's the longest friendship then non family, Like, what's the.
Speaker 1: Say, the longest friendship? I mean, gosh, childhood friendships I
Speaker 1: still have. I've sort of picked up friends throughout every
Speaker 1: part of my life. You know, I've got one or two.
Speaker 1: I've got high school friends that I keep in touch with,
Speaker 1: the college friends, the law school friends. You know, so
Speaker 1: you sort of gather people throughout and I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of people who've sort of just hung in there
Speaker 1: before we were the Obamas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does that work? I feel like so many
Speaker 2: people who are on their journey, a lot of us
Speaker 2: don't take steps forward because we're scared of what our
Speaker 2: friends will think. Some of us get carried away with
Speaker 2: success and ego and pride goes to your head, and
Speaker 2: then you alienate people. Sometimes it's envy and jealousy from
Speaker 2: everyone else who didn't join you on the journey. How
Speaker 2: do you navigate a multi decade level friendship when everyone
Speaker 2: is going through so much. What are the kind of
Speaker 2: key milestones and maintaining that kitchen table?
Speaker 1: You know, I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest.
Speaker 1: You start Not that I've ever done that, by the way,
Speaker 1: but what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest is that
Speaker 1: you you start out at base camp and then you
Speaker 1: hit these summits along the way, and everybody starts out
Speaker 1: the journey ready, you know, they think I'm going to
Speaker 1: make it to the top. And then you start the
Speaker 1: climb and some people are ready for it and some
Speaker 1: people aren't. And it's surprising that you learn along the
Speaker 1: climb who's really ready And there are people who just
Speaker 1: emotionally physically can't go the whole way. They run out
Speaker 1: of oxygen, you know, they weren't fit for the climb, right.
Speaker 1: And one of the hardest things is like when you
Speaker 1: discover that, I mean, do you stop, do you go
Speaker 1: back because there was one member that wasn't ready, or
Speaker 1: do you keep climbing and sort of leave them where
Speaker 1: they are? And we've found that that's kind of been
Speaker 1: the pattern.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: There are people who have been they were built for
Speaker 1: the climb like we were, and some weren't. And I
Speaker 1: find that I talk to young people about this too,
Speaker 1: because when you're a kid coming from nothing, and I
Speaker 1: won't say that I came from nothing but brought nor
Speaker 1: I came from wealth or connection or fame or fortune.
Speaker 1: So we have a hodgepodge of people in our lives,
Speaker 1: and one of the toughest things is to find out
Speaker 1: that a dear friend wasn't ready for the climb, and
Speaker 1: in order to keep pressing for it, we tell young
Speaker 1: people that sometimes you got to leave them there because
Speaker 1: you can't carry people when you're trying to get to
Speaker 1: the top. It slows you down. But there's you know,
Speaker 1: survivor's remorse that comes with it. And I know there
Speaker 1: you know a lot of times when I talk to
Speaker 1: kids and I see them well up, I see in
Speaker 1: them that struggle that they've reached a point where they've
Speaker 1: left people they love behind, and they struggle to figure
Speaker 1: out how to weather or how to maintain those connections,
Speaker 1: and it becomes hard and it's draining. You know, kids,
Speaker 1: for exact ample, who got the opportunity to go to
Speaker 1: college when half their family isn't eating yes, right, and
Speaker 1: they've got a student loan and they need to use
Speaker 1: that loan to pay for their books, but they're trying
Speaker 1: to send money back home to pay the electric bill.
Speaker 1: And I tell those kids, like, if you want to
Speaker 1: make it, you've got to make some hard choices about
Speaker 1: what to do with your life, or you will not
Speaker 1: make the climb yourself, and then everyone knows you, and
Speaker 1: then everybody loses. And I think that's how we've had
Speaker 1: to look at it. We've been fortunate enough that we've
Speaker 1: had so many people who were ready for the climb.
Speaker 1: They had to adjust, they had to go back and
Speaker 1: do a little working out, But for the most part,
Speaker 1: they've made it. But for the people who couldn't, we
Speaker 1: had to leave them behind and keep climbing. And if
Speaker 1: once we made it to the top, if we could
Speaker 1: reach back and pull some others up, we definitely did that.
Speaker 1: It is one of the greatest challenges when you were
Speaker 1: pursuing a life that is drastically different from the one
Speaker 1: that you've come from.
Speaker 2: It's such a thing as a graceful end.
Speaker 1: Well, it depends on who's doing the ending right, yes, sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know. Sometimes I say there's such a thing as
Speaker 1: the slow ghost, you know, where you just sort of
Speaker 1: let relationships take their natural course. Friendships and relationships kind
Speaker 1: of tell you when they're ready, you know, and you
Speaker 1: have to kind of listen to it. You learn as
Speaker 1: you get older, you know, sometimes you held on too long.
Speaker 1: You let some you know, bad jujus stay around too long,
Speaker 1: and as you get older you can recognize, right. I've
Speaker 1: always approached life and friendships, and I try to tell
Speaker 1: my daughters this too, is stay open, stay open to
Speaker 1: the possibility of people. I never want my daughters and
Speaker 1: I never wanted to feel so high that I was
Speaker 1: closed off and suspicious, you know, not wanting to let
Speaker 1: new people in, right, And that becomes very difficult when
Speaker 1: you're the president and the first lady. You know, you could,
Speaker 1: you know, close your life off so much, right because
Speaker 1: everyone might want something to turn to. But I always
Speaker 1: felt like, well that's a loss, you know, because if
Speaker 1: you close everybody out, then you miss some gems. We've
Speaker 1: tried to be open and find ways to let new
Speaker 1: people in our lives and develop new relationships. And what
Speaker 1: I tell my kids is trust your gut because you'll
Speaker 1: know when people should be let out. But keep your
Speaker 1: aperture wide open. Let people in, but when they show
Speaker 1: you who they are, let them out quickly. And as
Speaker 1: older you get, you know it's like, eah, that was that.
Speaker 1: This one isn't working out, so let's just cut it quick.
Speaker 1: But stay open, and.
Speaker 2: You're naturally going to make mistakes. You're naturally going to
Speaker 2: get hurt at not going to read everyone perfectly. So true, true,
Speaker 2: that's going to happen. But it's better to be aware,
Speaker 2: no doubt the lesson. But be open in the first place,
Speaker 2: because being closed is worse.
Speaker 1: You miss You miss out on the goodness, the possibility,
Speaker 1: the opportunity, the new right. And I never want to
Speaker 1: miss out on the new I I'd rather keep give
Speaker 1: people the benefit of the doubt, bring them in, and
Speaker 1: let them disappoint me. It's like I can deal with disappointment.
Speaker 1: I can be I can I can get over hurt,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to lose the possibility of someone
Speaker 1: special coming in. That's the greater trade off, right, and
Speaker 1: it's proven to be the right approach. You know, we
Speaker 1: we've just met some wonderful people along this journey and gosh,
Speaker 1: if I had closed myself off to that, I oh,
Speaker 1: I think of the friendships, the influences that I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have had. So I want my girls to stay open,
Speaker 1: you know, I want them to be open people.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had a mentor in London, probably around ten
Speaker 2: years ago, and he devised this set of questions that
Speaker 2: gives you your personality type. And there's so many tests
Speaker 2: like this, yes, but his was really interesting and it's
Speaker 2: very aligned with your thinking. So, and he also had
Speaker 2: types where we'd get locked and he'd call this CSC.
Speaker 2: He said, the more closed, the more specific, and the
Speaker 2: more controlling you get, the less you're able to actually connect, grow, evolve, learn.
Speaker 2: And he would always say, as you're saying, the more open,
Speaker 2: random and supportive you are, the more likely you are
Speaker 2: to be able to invite people into your life at
Speaker 2: different times. And I love hearing that because I like that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that change from close, selective and controlling to open, random,
Speaker 2: and supportive. He was saying, you never know, you could
Speaker 2: have a random interaction with someone. It could be the
Speaker 2: most beautiful lesson of your life.
Speaker 1: And I also felt that you know, when you're the
Speaker 1: president of the United States and the first, lady, you
Speaker 1: have to be open. You have to be open to
Speaker 1: all the possibilities. You can't live in your fortress and
Speaker 1: govern the people, right, And I think we benefited from
Speaker 1: the fact that we had to figure out how to
Speaker 1: be regular people in the White House because we had
Speaker 1: kids in school, and so we couldn't become just White
Speaker 1: House people. We had to get to know that community
Speaker 1: and go to parent teacher conference and make friends with
Speaker 1: other parents because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal.
Speaker 1: But that in a way kept me connected with people
Speaker 1: and what they were really feeling and what their challenges were.
Speaker 1: And it keeps me open and empathetic to people because
Speaker 1: I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle looking
Speaker 1: out at everybody else. So I found it particularly necessary
Speaker 1: in our role.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the best thing, that's beautiful. What has
Speaker 2: been the west or the hardest part about.
Speaker 1: Being you Well, I think it's the flip side of
Speaker 1: that coin of that. When you're on the top of
Speaker 1: Mount Everest, it can be isolating and dystopic in a way,
Speaker 1: you know. I think one of the greatest things that
Speaker 1: we've learned to appreciate in this role and I tell
Speaker 1: young people this, especially young people who think they want fame.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, do you know what that is?
Speaker 1: You know, are you grasping for something you have no
Speaker 1: idea or your parents pushing you towards this thing? Is
Speaker 1: that when you become famous, well known, you lose your anonymity.
Speaker 1: That's a tough thing to lose. Price, right, It's a
Speaker 1: huge price, right, The natural everyday thing of sitting and
Speaker 1: being able to sit in the world and observe it
Speaker 1: and not be observed, right, I mean.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a really interesting way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just sort of sitting in a park and watching
Speaker 1: the world happen with nobody pulling you out of it. Right,
Speaker 1: the simple walk through a park or standing in line
Speaker 1: at the grocery store and overhearing life. We don't have that,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have spontaneity in the same way.
Speaker 1: And that's a hard thing to lose. Now here's the thing. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: we lost it. We lost it in our forties. I
Speaker 1: just think of kids who are reaching for it, not
Speaker 1: knowing that you're about to lose a really valuable thing.
Speaker 1: You want to you're striving to lose it, and you're
Speaker 1: only eighteen twenty. You don't want to lose your anonymity.
Speaker 1: You don't want to trade that off for anything in
Speaker 1: the world, because once you lose it, you lose a
Speaker 1: lot more. We've adjusted, right because we're adults. So yes,
Speaker 1: I can figure out how how to make one move,
Speaker 1: go on a walk, visit a friend, but I have
Speaker 1: to call like twelve people, and I have to think
Speaker 1: about the movements and security has to be lined up.
Speaker 1: We can't do the ordinary things of life, you know,
Speaker 1: go to a movie theater or I joked at COVID
Speaker 1: when people asked when we were all in quarantine, how
Speaker 1: did it feel, And I was like, well, it's kind
Speaker 1: of easy for us because we've lived in quarantine for like,
Speaker 1: you know, a decade, decades, and so you learn to
Speaker 1: live in this smaller footprint. But it's that's a tough
Speaker 1: thing that I don't think people think about when they
Speaker 1: think of power and fame. And there's some downsides too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what do what do people want the most
Speaker 2: from you? And because I love the idea of what
Speaker 2: you're saying of being open, it's that mindset is so special. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess when that when you are open and then
Speaker 2: like you said, you can get over that hurt. What
Speaker 2: is the hurt that you usually have to to get
Speaker 2: over all that you've had.
Speaker 1: To well the maybe hurt is too strong of a
Speaker 1: word again because we're older. It's just the loss of
Speaker 1: a piece of yourself, right, you know. I mean people
Speaker 1: always ask me I was in Chicago the other day,
Speaker 1: and every time I go back to Chicago, people are like,
Speaker 1: do you miss Chicago? I missed the Chicago that we
Speaker 1: knew before we were here. Wow, that Chicago is no
Speaker 1: longer available to us to you, yes, yeah, you know
Speaker 1: the way we loved it in that way, and that's
Speaker 1: that's a loss. Is it a hurt? Is it personal? No,
Speaker 1: it's just the way life is. But it's still a loss.
Speaker 1: You know, my husband loves New York and it was
Speaker 1: interesting he thought for a second, because he's been more
Speaker 1: isolated than me. He thought for a minute, when we
Speaker 1: leave the White House, we'll live in New York. And
Speaker 1: it was like, dude, you can't live in New York.
Speaker 1: And it's just he cannot access the wonderful city of
Speaker 1: New York and the way that he remembered when he
Speaker 1: was in his twenties. Because guess what, we can't do.
Speaker 1: We can't walk down the street, we can't get on
Speaker 1: the subway, we can't necessarily walk through Central Park without
Speaker 1: a big plan. You know, the things that make New
Speaker 1: York New York, we can't access it. That's the part
Speaker 1: I don't you know, the people part, the connection to
Speaker 1: people part. I never get exhausted by that because I'm open, yes, right,
Speaker 1: So it's not a great distinction, right, It's just the
Speaker 1: way you want to live your life, especially when you're open, right,
Speaker 1: You want to be open, you want to be in
Speaker 1: the midst of people, and we've lost that absolutely.
Speaker 2: I think what's beautiful about this book, The Light we
Speaker 2: Carry and Becoming is it shows us just how many trials, challenges,
Speaker 2: setbacks that you've had to overcome, and that you've gone
Speaker 2: through in your life so elegantly, gracefully, tactfully, you know,
Speaker 2: with with so much determination and drive. And I'm intrigued
Speaker 2: that after having overcome so much, like you said, climbing
Speaker 2: Mount Everest, using that as a as our analogy, what
Speaker 2: is the thing that keeps you up at night now? Well,
Speaker 2: what is your biggest fear now? After having overcome so
Speaker 2: many It.
Speaker 1: Has less to do with me personally and more to
Speaker 1: do with the world that we're in. There's such a
Speaker 1: thing as knowing too much. And when you've been married
Speaker 1: to the President of the United States, who knows everything
Speaker 1: about everything in the world, sometimes you just want to
Speaker 1: do you know too much? Right, It's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't want to know what was in that folder
Speaker 1: that you just got that made you quiet, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to know why the security just pulled
Speaker 1: you over. I mean, it could be any range of
Speaker 1: things that comes across the desk of the leader of
Speaker 1: the free world. Right, So I know a lot about
Speaker 1: what's going on, and what keeps me up are the
Speaker 1: things that I know. The war in the region in
Speaker 1: too many regions? What is AI going to do for us?
Speaker 1: The environment? You know, are we moving at all fast enough?
Speaker 1: What are we doing about education? Are people going to vote?
Speaker 1: And why aren't people voting? Are we too stuck to
Speaker 1: our phones? I mean, those are the things that keep
Speaker 1: me up because you don't have control over them, and
Speaker 1: you wonder where are people? Where are we in this?
Speaker 1: You know, where are our hearts? What's going to happen
Speaker 1: in this next election? I am terrified about what could
Speaker 1: possibly happen because our leaders matter, who we select, who
Speaker 1: speaks for us, who holds that bullied pulpit. It affects
Speaker 1: us in ways that sometimes I think people take for granted.
Speaker 1: You know the fact that people think that government, nah,
Speaker 1: you know, does it really even do anything? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, does government do everything for us? And
Speaker 1: we cannot take this democracy for granted? And sometimes I
Speaker 1: worry that we do. Those are the things that keep
Speaker 1: me up.
Speaker 2: What habits have you developed? Because I think people may
Speaker 2: not have access to the news you do, but I
Speaker 2: think people can definitely relate yes, yes to what you're saying.
Speaker 2: That absolutely, Jay, I'm just seeing all the news on
Speaker 2: my phone. I'm connected to the TV. I'm hearing things
Speaker 2: from friends and family. Like I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people can relate to you saying I feel like I
Speaker 2: know too much. What are some of the habits of
Speaker 2: practices or rules that you've developed that have really become
Speaker 2: your saving grace Because like you said to you, it's
Speaker 2: not just a news update, it's a folder, it's the
Speaker 2: person calling, it's a private meeting, whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: You're in one sense, it's even more extreme because you're
Speaker 2: so privy to the actual reality as opposed to a
Speaker 2: news channel, which is part of reality.
Speaker 1: One of the most important practices is deliberately turning that
Speaker 1: off for a moment or more than a month, and
Speaker 1: I encourage that. I think our phones are sort of
Speaker 1: the regular man's equivalent to what I just described. We're
Speaker 1: too connected all the time. We're reading too much, we're
Speaker 1: taking too much in. We are constantly being fed by images,
Speaker 1: and that's become the norm, and it's we've been sort
Speaker 1: of marketed that that's cool, that's what we should want.
Speaker 1: But our brains are not. We are not that sophisticated
Speaker 1: a species. We have not evolved enough to be able
Speaker 1: to take in that much information on a constant basis,
Speaker 1: and our kids certainly are not prepared to handle it.
Speaker 1: I think that plays a huge role in the higher
Speaker 1: rates of depression and suicide among young people. They've got
Speaker 1: to let their brains rest from the noise. Even though
Speaker 1: you know we're all trying to fix everything, everyone needs
Speaker 1: a break from it, right, So I am very deliberate
Speaker 1: about knowing that I can't take all that in, and
Speaker 1: we're getting it in such a sort of misinterpreted way. Right,
Speaker 1: We've got, you know, confirmation bias. We're reading only what
Speaker 1: we already believe. And I know I have to be
Speaker 1: very deliberate about, you know, understanding that a lot of
Speaker 1: the information I'm getting isn't even complete. I do filter,
Speaker 1: you know, and then I develop habits that shut my
Speaker 1: brain off to thinking. Right. I wrote in the Light
Speaker 1: about knitting, you know, which is a habit that I developed,
Speaker 1: a hobby that I developed over quarantine.
Speaker 2: And that's because it makes you so present.
Speaker 1: And it shuts your brain down and allows your hands,
Speaker 1: the motion to take over. And in that way I
Speaker 1: found that it is meditative, right, And that's what meditation is.
Speaker 1: It's quieting your noisy mind. And some of us can't
Speaker 1: connect to meditation, but I think we need it. I
Speaker 1: think biologically we need to shut that part of ourselves
Speaker 1: down to get a rest from it. And I find
Speaker 1: that knitting does it. Exercise does it. Learning something physical
Speaker 1: shuts my mind down. I mean I've taken up tennis
Speaker 1: and there's nothing that shuts my mind down. Then running
Speaker 1: after a green ball and trying to figure out move
Speaker 1: your feet, hit the ball, follow through. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that shuts my mind down for the hour or ninety
Speaker 1: minutes that I'm doing that thing. I'm not worrying, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm breathing, I'm outside, I'm letting the sun hit my face.
Speaker 1: I am those habits and routines of creating something right,
Speaker 1: and we do that less and less now. It's like
Speaker 1: everything is all in the mind. It's all technology. But
Speaker 1: I think we need something where. The thing I love
Speaker 1: about knitting is that at the end of it had
Speaker 1: made something. You know, It's just satisfying in a very
Speaker 1: different way from problem solving or analysis, right, building, creating, painting, drawing, fixing,
Speaker 1: putting something real into the world that came from your
Speaker 1: own hands, something small.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: That's why I talk about the power of small in
Speaker 1: the light we carry, because a lot of times our
Speaker 1: brains are trying to do the big fix, and that's
Speaker 1: when we feel hopeless and we're tired, because most of
Speaker 1: us don't have the power to fix anything at a
Speaker 1: big scale. But we can focus on the small things
Speaker 1: that we have control over, you know, making a sweater
Speaker 1: for your daughter, helping mentor a child in your neighborhood,
Speaker 1: loving the children you bring into the world, and making
Speaker 1: sure they have everything they need. That's where change happens, right,
Speaker 1: And when I do those kinds of activities, I meditate
Speaker 1: into that power, right, that small power that there is
Speaker 1: satisfaction from hitting a stupid ball over a net, yes
Speaker 1: you know, and getting a good swing out of it.
Speaker 1: It's like it makes the day better because I serve
Speaker 1: the ball right, or I finished a scarf.
Speaker 2: I love to know you're so right. And I'm so
Speaker 2: glad you're using the word shutting down and this switch
Speaker 2: to analog I remember at one point, and I think
Speaker 2: everyone can relate to this. You wake up to your phone,
Speaker 2: I'd be brushing my teeth and on my phone. I'm
Speaker 2: eating breakfast and on my phone. You know, just your
Speaker 2: phone is now tethered to your hand in every activity
Speaker 2: that you're doing throughout the day, and so your brain
Speaker 2: is never shutting down. And the interesting thing is we
Speaker 2: all know our phones need to reset, need to update,
Speaker 2: they need a software refresh or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: And I think I saw somewhere that the human brain
Speaker 2: today has to process like seventy four gigabytes with information
Speaker 2: a day, Yeah, a day. And I was thinking, I
Speaker 2: remember when your phone doesn't you know, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: And when you think about it. This is a brand
Speaker 1: new technology. Yes, right. You know when we got into
Speaker 1: the White House, we could we had blackberries, right, social
Speaker 1: media wasn't a thing. Right. All of that came into
Speaker 1: being in the eight years that we were in the
Speaker 1: White House, and it's just gone off like a rocket ship.
Speaker 1: We don't evolve that quickly, you know. Humans, It takes
Speaker 1: generations for us to all. We haven't adapted to this
Speaker 1: new media. We haven't. We have not biologically adapted. And
Speaker 1: so no wonder we're stressed, no wonder, we're we're full
Speaker 1: of anxiety, No wonder our kids are struggling, you know,
Speaker 1: because we have a new technology and we've just we
Speaker 1: we've taken it in hookline and sinker. We're not even
Speaker 1: questioning how much. You know, the more the merrier, right.
Speaker 1: I think we need to be very mindful about this
Speaker 1: new gadget. Yes, And we have to be mindful for
Speaker 1: our kids because they have no filter, right, they'll just
Speaker 1: be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their their mind's
Speaker 1: never sleeping. And as parents of my generation, we know
Speaker 1: so little about it, don't. We don't even know how
Speaker 1: to monitor it. It's like cigarettes, right, Is it good
Speaker 1: for us? I mean at one point everybody smoked until
Speaker 1: we realized, Oops, this isn't really really good for us, right,
Speaker 1: I think we have to be cautious about this, this
Speaker 1: new thing that we're just lapping up.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I read an article a few years ago exactly.
Speaker 2: It was saying that today we absorb in one day,
Speaker 2: in twenty four hours, the same amount of tragedy we
Speaker 2: would in our entire lifetime twenty five years ago. Today
Speaker 2: we absorb what we would in our entire lifetime in
Speaker 2: one day.
Speaker 1: And it felt real, And that's why people feel more panicked.
Speaker 1: I mean, Barack, my husband, is a he's a fact
Speaker 1: based guy. He's a science guy. Sometimes it's not popular
Speaker 1: these days, right, having a president that believes in facts
Speaker 1: and science and all that stuff. But he's one of
Speaker 1: those people. And he always says, you know, statistically speaking,
Speaker 1: especially when young people bemoan where we are today, he says,
Speaker 1: you know, if you look at history and statistics, if
Speaker 1: you were to pick any time in human history to
Speaker 1: be born, you'd want to be born now. Crime, war,
Speaker 1: those rates are the lowest. But nobody feels that people
Speaker 1: feel more unsafe. Why because they're getting fed images of
Speaker 1: every crime that happens anywhere everywhere, right, And when we
Speaker 1: were growing up, you just heard your local news. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just like, oh, there was a fire or that kid,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know. Now we're getting everything, not
Speaker 1: just from our community, but all over the world. Stuff
Speaker 1: that's always been happening. We just didn't know about it. Yes,
Speaker 1: now we know too much. Yes, and we're interpreting that
Speaker 1: to mean things are horrible. We went through world wars
Speaker 1: and depressions and famine. This isn't new. It's just we
Speaker 1: know everything, you know. It's one way to look at it.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, absolutely, And I think you're right because there's
Speaker 2: the incomplete information. I like the word incomplete things, and
Speaker 2: I appreciate that kind of subtle point. Incomplete information. Then
Speaker 2: you have opinions. Then you have feelings and emotions, and
Speaker 2: so there's so much more information on every level. You
Speaker 2: have the physical information, the emotional information, the mental information
Speaker 2: of course, the physical experience of it. And it can
Speaker 2: be it can be too much. One of the it's
Speaker 2: so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest
Speaker 2: because I went to see a comedy show recently and
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember the comedian's name, so I'll have
Speaker 2: to find it afterwards and put him in there. But
Speaker 2: he literally was describing. He was saying, relationships are like
Speaker 2: climbing Mount Everest, and so what he said was he goes,
Speaker 2: you started base camp, and he goes, you and your
Speaker 2: partner are ready, You're ready to go. You're being guided,
Speaker 2: and then at one point you're like, oh, we're cold,
Speaker 2: but it's okay, we'll keep each other warm.
Speaker 1: We'll be find and.
Speaker 2: Then he goes you get to the first stop and
Speaker 2: you go, oh, yeah, like have you did you pack
Speaker 2: the gloves? Did you pack the gloves? And then your
Speaker 2: partner goes, oh, no, I forgot the gloves. And you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's okay, it's okay, we'll just keep our hands warm.
Speaker 2: Then you get a bit higher and then they were like,
Speaker 2: now it's got to a point where it's really cold,
Speaker 2: and you were why did you forget those gloves? Like
Speaker 2: you know, it's like the press that come on, like
Speaker 2: why do you figure out those gloves? Then you get
Speaker 2: the next stop and your partner says to you, like,
Speaker 2: you pack the sandwiches right, and then you look at
Speaker 2: the sandwiches like, I don't know what to say anyway,
Speaker 2: And so you talk about this so much in your
Speaker 2: work in your book, like relationships are challenging, they're difficult.
Speaker 2: I think you've been together now for over thirty years.
Speaker 2: Thirty one thirty one, thirty one years. Congratulations. Yeah, okay, amazing,
Speaker 2: thirty one years. Congratulations. That's incredible and so inspiring in
Speaker 2: so many ways. My wife and I have been together
Speaker 2: for ten years, and that counts counts, and you know,
Speaker 2: definitely like can see the challenges unforeseen and seen that
Speaker 2: come with being together over long periods of time. My
Speaker 2: wife and I in twenty sixteen, we both changed jobs,
Speaker 2: so we got married, we changed jobs and moved country.
Speaker 2: So we moved from London to New York. That year.
Speaker 2: We both quit our jobs in London. I could work here,
Speaker 2: my wife couldn't at the time because of her visa,
Speaker 2: and we started new lives and we obviously moved home
Speaker 2: and we were away from our families, and that year
Speaker 2: was it brought us closer, thankfully, but it was a
Speaker 2: very challenging, difficult year because I've had that those are
Speaker 2: some of the hardest things you can do. The only
Speaker 2: thing we didn't do is have a kid.
Speaker 1: That's right. You covered all the hardes apart.
Speaker 2: From President the first lady, I think that that takes it.
Speaker 2: When you're going for all this challenges. You've talked about
Speaker 2: these many many times before. Has there ever been a
Speaker 2: time when you've said things or done things and afterwards though,
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't do that, wish I didn't say what.
Speaker 1: In my marriage? Yes, yeah, of course yesterday. I love that.
Speaker 2: How do you how do you because you've been together
Speaker 2: for thirty one years, how do you rectify something like
Speaker 2: that when you know, because there's a difference between being
Speaker 2: spiteful of being silly, but like when you really feel
Speaker 2: like I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 2: How do you address something that.
Speaker 1: You know that's the practice of relationships right after thirty
Speaker 1: one years. Yeah, we still do it, but you know
Speaker 1: it quicker and then you apologize. You know, you learn
Speaker 1: how to say my bad right, and that takes that
Speaker 1: takes a second right. You know. That's why I talk
Speaker 1: about relationships in the light. I talk about marriage because
Speaker 1: I just think that number one, most people don't talk
Speaker 1: about it, Like our parents didn't talk about your marriage.
Speaker 1: You didn't talk about your feelings you didn't talk about
Speaker 1: your parents didn't tell you about the challenges that we're facing.
Speaker 1: So why why don't we share the whole experience? Because
Speaker 1: what happens is that by not knowing, you hit in
Speaker 1: your relationship some natural, like understandable rough patches and you
Speaker 1: want to quit. And it's like, oh no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's not quit worthy. That's just that's the just the
Speaker 1: nature of things, you know. That's why I joked. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're mad at your partner. You're mad for a year,
Speaker 1: and you think the marriage is over. Nah, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have decades. I don't know if I like you, you know,
Speaker 1: because over the span of a thirty year marriage, yet
Speaker 1: you cobble together enough arguments and you got to decade, right,
Speaker 1: And that's just the way it goes. But you don't
Speaker 1: quit on it, right, You learn from it. And that's
Speaker 1: what sustaining a relationship is. It's the choice to figure
Speaker 1: it out, not to quit when it gets hard. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I said something that I didn't mean to say. Right
Speaker 1: year five, we might have had hurt feelings and it
Speaker 1: would have taken days to rectify it. You're thirty, It's like, eh,
Speaker 1: there she goes again, or there he goes again. I
Speaker 1: know how to talk to him about it and when
Speaker 1: because we've practiced it. We've made a lot of mistakes,
Speaker 1: we've gotten it wrong, and after thirty one years we're
Speaker 1: getting better at it and it gets better and better
Speaker 1: and better. You know. Look, if you lived with your
Speaker 1: roommate for thirty years, you would hate them at some
Speaker 1: point in time, but it wouldn't be some defining thing.
Speaker 1: You have friendships that they laugh. You're gonna have some
Speaker 1: falling out. Why do we put so much pressure on
Speaker 1: marriage to not be hard. It's the natural hardest thing
Speaker 1: you will ever do, which is to try to build
Speaker 1: a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes,
Speaker 1: who has a totally different temperament, right, and you're like
Speaker 1: having other people with them, you know, you bring other
Speaker 1: lives and other personalities into the mix, and then life
Speaker 1: is happening. Of course, it's gonna be hard, you know,
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't trade in my marriage for anything in
Speaker 1: the world. With all the ups and downs, with all
Speaker 1: the running for president stuff, I was like, what did
Speaker 1: you do that? I mean, talk about that being a big, gaping, yeah,
Speaker 1: transition thing in our lives, but the good has outweighed
Speaker 1: and if we hadn't hung in there, we would have
Speaker 1: missed all the good. And that's what I tell young people, like,
Speaker 1: first of all, pick well, pick some what do you
Speaker 1: respect and like start there, right, and then remember that
Speaker 1: that's who they are, and then understand that with that,
Speaker 1: they are going to be and you are going to
Speaker 1: be deeply, deeply flawed, and you're going to make a
Speaker 1: whole lot of mistakes, right, But in the end, you
Speaker 1: can look that person in the eye and you go,
Speaker 1: You're still the person that I like and love and respect,
Speaker 1: and we can figure this out. So I share that
Speaker 1: because I don't want people looking at me and Barack
Speaker 1: like hashtag couples goals and not know that. No, no,
Speaker 1: there are some broken things that happen even in the
Speaker 1: best of marriages.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you use that term quit worthy. Is that
Speaker 2: something that you defined for yourself what you saw as
Speaker 2: quit worthy and what you saw as not quit worthy.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Look, I think there are some
Speaker 1: objective quit worthy things like criminality, of course, abuse, but hey,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's me. You know, there's some people who
Speaker 1: love through a whole lot of things. So I think
Speaker 1: that has to be individual. But if I were talking
Speaker 1: to my daughters, I wouldn't want them in to stay
Speaker 1: in a marriage that made them feel oppressed, that was
Speaker 1: an overall negative to who they were, right, I do
Speaker 1: think there are reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship,
Speaker 1: a whole jobs, a whole lot of things.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I have a clear list of like the
Speaker 1: non negotiables, but everybody has their own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's so important that you know,
Speaker 2: everyone who's listening and watching, the idea of having our
Speaker 2: own quit worthy definition is such a need because it
Speaker 2: can get really hard to find clarity when you get
Speaker 2: really deep into something. A practice that I love doing
Speaker 2: with a lot of my clients and even people that
Speaker 2: I work with or online is I ask Kevin to
Speaker 2: write down the needs that they have in their life,
Speaker 2: and then write down the people that filled those needs.
Speaker 2: And it could be themselves too, some of them, and
Speaker 2: then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad,
Speaker 2: and of course in your book, like we noticed like
Speaker 2: your mom's like wisdom, right, Like she's the Buddha in
Speaker 2: your life. As you say you see different people, what
Speaker 2: are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to
Speaker 2: fill that you then realized they actually needed to be
Speaker 2: fooled by other people.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I write about it. The fact
Speaker 1: that we are two very independent, ambitious, smart people and complex,
Speaker 1: you knows, as individuals. We you know, were dynamic in
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying that as an ego trip, but.
Speaker 2: No, you know what you mean, you constantly flux.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, and I learned It took me a
Speaker 1: while to learn that. You know, there's no way we
Speaker 1: could be everything to each other. We have different interests,
Speaker 1: different goals. There was a stage in my marriage where
Speaker 1: I thought that's what a partner was supposed to be.
Speaker 1: You know, you should call me all the time, we
Speaker 1: should talk all the time. We should be each other's
Speaker 1: best friends all the time. Our marriage got better when
Speaker 1: I got better about that, because I think he already
Speaker 1: had that independence. This notion of I love you, I
Speaker 1: don't even if I don't talk to you today, That
Speaker 1: to me is like I don't need that. I felt
Speaker 1: like I needed more of that. But as I got older, right,
Speaker 1: I got more mature, more clear about my own goals,
Speaker 1: I realized that I, you know, he can't be responsible
Speaker 1: for my happiness. I have to be responsible for that.
Speaker 1: I have to define it for myself. I have to
Speaker 1: learn how to achieve it. My husband is definitely a
Speaker 1: part of that, but he is not the I cannot
Speaker 1: put him in the center of my happiness. That freed
Speaker 1: me up to let him be him and let me
Speaker 1: be me. So I have friends who give me things
Speaker 1: that my husband doesn't give me. I have girlfriends. One
Speaker 1: distinction that we have is like, I'm a talker, all right.
Speaker 1: When I sit down with my girlfriends, we can talk
Speaker 1: four days, I mean literally for days. We can take
Speaker 1: a break for lunch, but we can talk.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: My husband's not He can talk, but he will come
Speaker 1: by a friendship session, you know, nine o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: I have a friend staying with me and he's like,
Speaker 1: what are y'all talking about. It's like, well, we're just
Speaker 1: now getting into our kids and we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about each one of them separately for like an hour.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: He's like, I couldn't do that, right, He can't be
Speaker 1: that for me. But I have really good mostly girlfriends
Speaker 1: who give me that. You know, we will dissect life
Speaker 1: to the bitter. We will ring everything out of every
Speaker 1: subject and he's like, I think I'm done, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you can go be done because I've got her and
Speaker 1: we just got started. We're gonna we got twelve more
Speaker 1: hours to go, right.
Speaker 2: And that's so beautiful to hear because I think, especially
Speaker 2: when we're young, we think that that person has to
Speaker 2: be all of that and from the beginning, and or
Speaker 2: they'll become it. There's the other fallacy of like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I know who they could be and who they could become.
Speaker 2: How much of that did you feel you had to
Speaker 2: disconnect and detach from it, like what this person could
Speaker 2: be to you? Obviously not in the world, but.
Speaker 1: I had to disconnect from all of those beliefs, right,
Speaker 1: And every couple is different, I've found. I know people
Speaker 1: who are each other's best friends. They like to travel together,
Speaker 1: they walk and hold hands. And I have friends who
Speaker 1: are in relationships where they talk like every hour. I'm like,
Speaker 1: are you talking to him again? Nothing changed? You know,
Speaker 1: it's up to the individuals to define that for themselves.
Speaker 1: For Barack and I and I think you should be
Speaker 1: clear about that because the other thing is that when
Speaker 1: we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person.
Speaker 1: We don't even share it, so now we're mad that
Speaker 1: you haven't even filled something I never even told you
Speaker 1: I need it. You know that takes time and it
Speaker 1: takes work, which is why marriage is hard, right because
Speaker 1: you'll have the tendency to live in your head and
Speaker 1: live out the image of what you want them to be,
Speaker 1: and you haven't even communicated that to them. That's just
Speaker 1: one little fraction of the challenge of marriage and friendship
Speaker 1: and all of that. It's hard, it takes time, but
Speaker 1: it's worth.
Speaker 2: It, absolutely. Yeah. I think those those check ins are
Speaker 2: the hardest. I know that there's four check ins that
Speaker 2: I try and keep a good habit around with my
Speaker 2: wife that have really helped me. One of them is
Speaker 2: every day I'll ask her like, what was your highlight today?
Speaker 2: Or what did you learn today? Something something positive? Something
Speaker 2: like what's the best thing that happened to you today?
Speaker 2: I want to know because it's so easy for us
Speaker 2: to get so busy in our days, not see each
Speaker 2: other all day, not speak all day, and days can
Speaker 2: go by like that too because we're also traveling. And
Speaker 2: then every week I try and ask you, like, how
Speaker 2: can I what can I help you with this week?
Speaker 2: Like is there something coming up that I just need
Speaker 2: to be aware of? Yeah, Sometimes it's just information, and
Speaker 2: that gives me an opportunity to also tell her I've
Speaker 2: got a really stressful week coming up. Just know that
Speaker 2: I may not be at my best this week. I'm
Speaker 2: just letting you know. Every month, I'm you know, checking
Speaker 2: in with her and trying to just say to her, like,
Speaker 2: what's your big focus for this month, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: what's the big thing that you're working on? Then every
Speaker 2: year is easy, like you know, what's your goal? Is
Speaker 2: a resolution or whatever? And I find that those questions
Speaker 2: and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question, which is
Speaker 2: the hardest one, but it's like is this relationship going
Speaker 2: in the direction you want it to? And if it isn't,
Speaker 2: what are you willing to do? And what am I
Speaker 2: willing to do to get it back on track? Because
Speaker 2: I find so often like if you just don't talk
Speaker 2: about that deep intimacy, you're just going on different tracks.
Speaker 2: And that's why five years later you're like, well I
Speaker 2: don't know you anymore. Yeah, yeah, And so I find
Speaker 2: that like staying in close contact, but one of the
Speaker 2: biggest things I read which I wanted to try with
Speaker 2: you is the Gotman Institute talked about how the number
Speaker 2: one skill or habit in relationships, and they looked at
Speaker 2: couples who'd stayed together the longest, and they found it
Speaker 2: wasn't date nights, it wasn't vacations, it wasn't any of
Speaker 2: this stuff. It was learning how to fight. Oh, it
Speaker 2: was knowing how to deal with conflict. And most couples,
Speaker 2: obviously we all go, well, we never fight or we're
Speaker 2: never going to fight, but it's inevitable. So I came
Speaker 2: up with these three fight styles, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: know how you see yourself and how you see President
Speaker 2: Obama or how he would see himself. And so here
Speaker 2: the three fight styles are a venter, which means I
Speaker 2: want to fix and solve it. Right now. You like
Speaker 2: to vent, you're really trying to fix and solve it.
Speaker 2: The second one is you're a hyder. You need time
Speaker 2: and space to think about it. I just want to
Speaker 2: go spend time by yourself. And then the third one
Speaker 2: is the exploder, where it's like I want my emotions
Speaker 2: to be heard, felt and seen before we take time
Speaker 2: about or before we try and solve it. Which one
Speaker 2: are you?
Speaker 1: Okay? So I've changed over early on in our relationships,
Speaker 1: I was more of an exploder. I think he has
Speaker 1: been always been a fixer, right, Yeah, So then I
Speaker 1: would be explosive and then want to hide. Right, It's like,
Speaker 1: I want to explode, let me have my emotions and
Speaker 1: then give me a moment, right, And he's like, we've
Speaker 1: got to fix this. We've got to you know, shut
Speaker 1: this down. We've got to. I will figure it out.
Speaker 1: Let's talk this through. And I love that about him,
Speaker 1: especially as a man. You know, he's somebody that is
Speaker 1: not afraid to put his emotions out. He's smart, and
Speaker 1: so he knows me. So he's like he won't let
Speaker 1: me pretend like there's nothing wrong because he knows. I
Speaker 1: know there's something You're a little off. And but I've
Speaker 1: had to learn that exploding on a fixer it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel good to them, right, It just you know, it
Speaker 1: feels good for me, but it doesn't feel good for him. Right.
Speaker 1: But he's learned that as a hid that I do
Speaker 1: need a little more time. Right if I'm exploding, I
Speaker 1: can't be rational enough to talk through your fixing. And
Speaker 1: you if you want to fix it. Then I've got
Speaker 1: to be in a rational place. So let me hide
Speaker 1: for a minute. So I need to get myself down
Speaker 1: to a fixer place. Yes, I think that's been the
Speaker 1: trajectory of our sorting through learning how to argue. But
Speaker 1: I like those But he's he's been pretty consistent. He
Speaker 1: is consistently the fixer, you know. And he's also much
Speaker 1: more even keeled, you know, than I am emotionally. We're
Speaker 1: just different people in that way, and he's learned not
Speaker 1: to be too afraid of the explosiveness. Yes, it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't mean it. I'm just saying it right now
Speaker 1: because I need to say it.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, And that awareness that you're just displaying there
Speaker 2: is so powerful to witness because you realize, wow, it's
Speaker 2: not as serious as I'm making it out.
Speaker 1: It's important, that's right, it's.
Speaker 2: Important, and I need to take note of it, but
Speaker 2: it's I don't need to deal with it in this
Speaker 2: right well, And it's maturing.
Speaker 1: We all say, well, say what's on your mind, you know,
Speaker 1: tell it like it is, and it's like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: that tends to be who I am. But as you
Speaker 1: get older, you realize, yeah, that's your heart, but your
Speaker 1: head tells you you want to be heard, and you
Speaker 1: have to think about who you're talking to and what
Speaker 1: you're in gold is because that will dictate how you
Speaker 1: have to communicate to them. So when you're young, you
Speaker 1: just want to be heard. As you get older, you
Speaker 1: have a goal. You want to achieve something, and being
Speaker 1: heard in the way you say it may not get
Speaker 1: you to your goal. Yes, I mean that's at the
Speaker 1: crux for me of what going high is, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: going high is being strategic. If you're really trying to
Speaker 1: make change, you have to think about whether your approach
Speaker 1: will allow for change to happen. You know, going high
Speaker 1: means you're thinking about a broader point outside of your
Speaker 1: own anger or hurt or pain. You're thinking where am
Speaker 1: I trying to get to and how do I do
Speaker 1: that with this group that I'm trying to move. That's
Speaker 1: passion matured into purpose, and young people often they want
Speaker 1: to just act with passion. Yes, right, but passion doesn't
Speaker 1: always solve a thing. And I've learned that in my relationship.
Speaker 1: You know, my passion isn't is meaningless if my husband
Speaker 1: can't hear it, you know, if I've hurt his feelings
Speaker 1: in the process. Well, what's that's not the point, you know,
Speaker 1: So I have to mature my passion, you know, I
Speaker 1: have to mature it as a mother, right. I have
Speaker 1: to be very careful as a mother with the words
Speaker 1: I say. I can't just say what's on my mind.
Speaker 1: I can I have to think about how I say
Speaker 1: it to which child because they're both different and they
Speaker 1: both need to be parented different. Right. So going high
Speaker 1: is like, to me, it's the mature way to live, right,
Speaker 1: the mature way to get the message across. It doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that how you feel isn't relevant, right. It's true,
Speaker 1: It's real and true, but that's for you to deal with.
Speaker 1: When you're dealing with external people, whether it's your husband
Speaker 1: or your kids or your friends, your passion has to
Speaker 1: take way to what's going to work with this person,
Speaker 1: what's going to work with this group of people? To me,
Speaker 1: that's what going high is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a great definition. I think you're the best
Speaker 2: person has this conversation with I love how you explain
Speaker 2: the need for that, And actually I don't think i've
Speaker 2: heard it explained in that way before. I really appreciate
Speaker 2: it because I think currently we've confused being authentic and
Speaker 2: being strategic. What you were just saying is when you're
Speaker 2: sharing how you feel, you are being authentic, but maybe
Speaker 2: it won't be authentically recved or heard or seen because
Speaker 2: it wasn't strategically perceived. But we sometimes today perceived strategy
Speaker 2: as manipulation or as a technique, as opposed to or
Speaker 2: selling out or selling out. Right, walk me through that,
Speaker 2: because I think how we perceive we've put authenticity on
Speaker 2: a pedestal, which is not wrong, but we've put strategy
Speaker 2: is like the thing that you kind of you know,
Speaker 2: shun well.
Speaker 1: And maybe strategy is too strategic or hard of a world,
Speaker 1: but you could replace that with empathy, right, you know, connectivity.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like who am I trying to move?
Speaker 1: And where are they in this? Right? And when you're
Speaker 1: the President of the United States or the first lady,
Speaker 1: you have a big platform. I've always felt like I
Speaker 1: have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think
Speaker 1: about where are you? Why are you so angry? Where
Speaker 1: is your hate coming from? Because yeah, I can be
Speaker 1: mad at your hate. I can be mad that you're
Speaker 1: you know, you just said something racist, or you knock
Speaker 1: me down a peg, or you misjudged me. But if
Speaker 1: I'm trying to fix the relationship, I've got to understand
Speaker 1: what are you going through? Where did that perception come from,
Speaker 1: what's your history? What puts you in this spirit of hate?
Speaker 1: Because that's going to dictate how we can even begin
Speaker 1: to have the conversation. I don't lose my authenticity in
Speaker 1: that because I know who I am, right, but I
Speaker 1: have to make room to understand who you are. That's
Speaker 1: either strategy or empathy. But to me, effective communication, especially
Speaker 1: if you're a leader, if you have the power, it
Speaker 1: requires a step back. Yes, right, And I think that's
Speaker 1: what going high is, and I do you're right. I
Speaker 1: think in this day and age, we've kind of supplanted
Speaker 1: that consideration. Because my feelings count. My voice has to
Speaker 1: be heard, which is also why I think we have
Speaker 1: to learn how to hear people throughout. We have to
Speaker 1: give people a space to be heard outside of the anger, right,
Speaker 1: because that's where all that's coming from. Right. When people
Speaker 1: can't mature their response, it's because they don't have a voice.
Speaker 1: It's like and if I don't have a voice in
Speaker 1: regular conversation, then I will make you hear me.
Speaker 2: Yes, right.
Speaker 1: Young people feel that way, absolutely right. Oppress people feel
Speaker 1: that way. People who don't have a stake and it
Speaker 1: feel that way. Which is why I think it's strategic
Speaker 1: to give everybody a piece of something so that they
Speaker 1: feel seen and heard. I think that brings that ratchets
Speaker 1: down the anger, the explosiveness, because people can guarantee that
Speaker 1: they are being seen, they'll be heard. They don't have
Speaker 1: to yell, they don't have to tear something apart, they
Speaker 1: don't have to break it because they own it. And
Speaker 1: we just lose sight of that these days and our
Speaker 1: policies and our perspectives. You can't shut people out, you know.
Speaker 1: I talk about in the light when I think about
Speaker 1: kids from communities that are under invested in their anger,
Speaker 1: their lack of like, I don't none of this belongs
Speaker 1: to me, so why would I protect it? Why wouldn't
Speaker 1: I break down your house or rob you or try
Speaker 1: to take your car because I don't own any of this.
Speaker 1: This country is not mine. They don't see me. Right.
Speaker 1: I think we do better with kids if they feel
Speaker 1: like I've got a chance here. This place is investing
Speaker 1: in me, so I'm invested in it. We do that
Speaker 1: with kids in the inner city. But you know, we
Speaker 1: don't talk about education. We don't talk about what we're
Speaker 1: giving them, or whether they have music or joy or
Speaker 1: sports or activities. We just want them to have nothing
Speaker 1: and then be okay with it. But they're going to
Speaker 1: fight to be heard.
Speaker 2: Yes, they're going to.
Speaker 1: Fight to be seen, but they're not going to do
Speaker 1: it in a rational way because they don't have a
Speaker 1: strategic place and they don't feel like they're a part
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: So true, so true. When you're trying to go high,
Speaker 2: when you're trying to have this view of I want
Speaker 2: to understand your story. I want to get inside your
Speaker 2: mindset and recognize why you have evolved in this direction
Speaker 2: or this particular path. If anything, what does still offend you?
Speaker 1: Like injustice, ego, greed, it's offensive, racism, ignorance, it's offensive.
Speaker 1: And I've always been that kid. I don't like unfairness,
Speaker 1: I don't like bullies. But I have to think about
Speaker 1: how I deliver messages that's beautiful still even in my
Speaker 1: pain and my anger and my day disappointment, so that
Speaker 1: those emotions are there, but I have to think about
Speaker 1: where do where do I let that out in a
Speaker 1: safe space, and that's what my kitchen table is.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I still have those emotions, but in my public facing voice,
Speaker 1: I have to be responsible, right, and strategic and thoughtful
Speaker 1: about what's going to move the needle, what's going to
Speaker 1: add value. My emotional well being gets taken care of
Speaker 1: at the kitchen table. I can't suffocate those feelings, but
Speaker 1: I can't act them out in the town's square. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I'm just going to add fuel to the fire,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle.
Speaker 1: I don't believe because those feelings are still mine. And
Speaker 1: if you ask me, I'll tell you what I'm angry about,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to lead with that. And in
Speaker 1: the midst of the message, I'll make it clear what
Speaker 1: I stand for and what I don't stand for. But
Speaker 1: the tone and tenor of the message matters. We can't
Speaker 1: just say what the first thing that comes to our minds.
Speaker 1: We cannot. That is not authenticity. To me, that's childish.
Speaker 1: And we see childless leadership right before us. What that
Speaker 1: looks like and how that feels. Where somebody is just
Speaker 1: base and vulgar and cynical in a leadership position. It
Speaker 1: doesn't trickle down well, you know, that just begets more
Speaker 1: of that. I think we are obligated to model for
Speaker 1: those of us that have a platform, because it resonates,
Speaker 1: and I want to resonate good. I want to resonate
Speaker 1: reason and compassion and empathy, and that's more important than
Speaker 1: my feelings because my feelings I can take care of those.
Speaker 2: That is, that's a masterclass in communication right there. Genuinely,
Speaker 2: that is to hear that from you with so much
Speaker 2: empathy but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening
Speaker 2: and watching, because I think we've approached it from the
Speaker 2: other way around today. I think my personal feelings, not mine,
Speaker 2: but in general, how we feel. My personal feelings have
Speaker 2: become more important than moving and supporting and serving and
Speaker 2: caring and getting to where we need to get to.
Speaker 2: And that's because we've suppressed those feelings. That's why that
Speaker 2: has happened. It hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive.
Speaker 2: It's happened because people feel they've been so unheard. Going
Speaker 2: back to your point, and that's why we need to
Speaker 2: give space, We need to get let this rise. How
Speaker 2: early did you start recognizing this for you and your
Speaker 2: own life, like where do you remember, like the earliest
Speaker 2: before the White House, like where you actually were? Like
Speaker 2: this worked, like this made sense and I still felt
Speaker 2: good because I had my kitchen table. Is there anything
Speaker 2: that comes to mind, and.
Speaker 1: Do I go to childhood. I don't think I knew
Speaker 1: anything that was when I was little, but I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I learned it on the campaign trail. It
Speaker 1: was a product of one of the hardest moments that
Speaker 1: I had on the campaign trail, but one of the
Speaker 1: best growth moments. And I write about this in the
Speaker 1: light when I was accused of not loving my country
Speaker 1: because of some phrasing I said. I learned first of all,
Speaker 1: that when you have a public forum, especially in this
Speaker 1: day and age, that in your like competing people will
Speaker 1: distort you whenever they can, and if they distort your words,
Speaker 1: your truth, even your personhood, which I felt like people
Speaker 1: attempted to do with me. With us, they tried to
Speaker 1: otherize us as the first black people, accusing my husband
Speaker 1: of being a terrorist and not being born in this country,
Speaker 1: accusing me of being angry black women. And you know
Speaker 1: the labels that can easily get put on others that
Speaker 1: people that are othered right to make people afraid of us.
Speaker 1: That that is a strategy that gets played again and
Speaker 1: again and again. It was being played on me, and
Speaker 1: it got me to the point where I was almost
Speaker 1: ready to quit campaigning. Right, But then I thought, I
Speaker 1: have to be more strategic than they are about how
Speaker 1: I deliver my message. I have to be authentic, but
Speaker 1: I also have to be careful so that I don't
Speaker 1: get mischaracterized. I have to be smarter than them. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean I stop, but I had to regroup for
Speaker 1: a minute there and really evaluate how am I going
Speaker 1: to regain control over my narrative and communicate in a
Speaker 1: broad way that allows me to be heard, especially as
Speaker 1: a black woman. Yes, here being critical or being off
Speaker 1: authentic or passionate, right, that was a learning curve to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think my sentiments about the importance of
Speaker 1: communication are always there. Yes, my belief in how important
Speaker 1: it is that stories connect us that was there. I
Speaker 1: learned that in life, but learning how to do that
Speaker 1: on the public stage. I learned the tricks and pitfalls
Speaker 1: of it in my first campaign. Yes, and those lessons
Speaker 1: stay with me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's thank you for the example. That example definitely
Speaker 2: connects you reminded me of probably one of my favorite
Speaker 2: set of words from Martin Luther King, where he said
Speaker 2: that people who love peace need to learn to organize
Speaker 2: themselves as well as those who love war. For those
Speaker 2: us who love love and love peace and love, compassion
Speaker 2: and empathy. If we're not organized about it, if we're
Speaker 2: not strategic about it, if we're not thoughtful about it,
Speaker 2: that's it won't have the impact that we all pray
Speaker 2: for it to have. Michelle, You've been so kind and
Speaker 2: generous with your time. We end every episode with a
Speaker 2: final five. These are the fast five, which I always
Speaker 2: ruin because I'm too interested and curious. They're usually answered
Speaker 2: in one word to one sentence. Oh, but I know
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to ruin it. So it's like,
Speaker 2: so the first question I have to ask you, Michelle,
Speaker 2: is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: Heard A lot of it from my wives, Mom, come home,
Speaker 1: we like you here to explain that. It was like
Speaker 1: my parents always taught me that the world won't always
Speaker 1: like you, but you can't count on the world to
Speaker 1: like you. You come home to be liked, You go
Speaker 1: out there to get your education, to earn a living,
Speaker 1: you won't necessarily find people who will see you or
Speaker 1: love you or like you. You get that here, right,
Speaker 1: And that's been a peace of advice.
Speaker 2: That Oh that's beautiful. Thank you. That's so powerful. Now
Speaker 2: a lot of people who need to hear that right now.
Speaker 2: Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard
Speaker 2: or received?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know that the worst advice
Speaker 1: stays with me. You let it go, my brother, This
Speaker 1: isn't the worst, right, But it goes back to what
Speaker 1: we were saying earlier. You know, he's like, when you
Speaker 1: get into the White House, you got to be careful.
Speaker 1: No new friends, right, That's not who he is. But
Speaker 1: you know, it was a way of saying, be careful.
Speaker 1: I think staying open was more important in this phase
Speaker 1: in our lives than being closed off. I'm glad we
Speaker 1: stayed open.
Speaker 2: I'm glad. To question number three, you said that the
Speaker 2: White House doesn't change you, it reveals more of who
Speaker 2: you are. What did it reveal to you about yourself?
Speaker 1: That I'm pretty strategic and smart and resilient. The White
Speaker 1: House tests you in ways that you never anticipate paid it.
Speaker 1: And the fact that we came out as a family,
Speaker 1: as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters.
Speaker 1: That was us. That was our values, our compassion, our
Speaker 1: our smarts, our strategy that got us through. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of my husband, the way he led,
Speaker 1: the way his administration worked, the team that we built,
Speaker 1: So proud of everyone. I may have diverted from the question,
Speaker 1: but beautiful, I think that's that's because of who we are,
Speaker 1: and I know that now I can.
Speaker 2: I can see it in your eyes and feed it
Speaker 2: from you a where it's like it's might It must
Speaker 2: be hard, like knowing that you know it can't always
Speaker 2: be that way. In one sense, it's almost like great
Speaker 2: that you've been able to leave, But there's a there's
Speaker 2: that feeling also like oh but that was great.
Speaker 1: I mean, the bars are different for people in life
Speaker 1: that I've learned. This is the thing about being another
Speaker 1: You learn how to be excellent all the time, because
Speaker 1: you can't be less than other people can Other people
Speaker 1: can be indicted a bunch of times and still run
Speaker 1: for office, black man, can't. You just learned to be
Speaker 1: good and in the end you benefit from that extra resilience.
Speaker 1: You know, you could be mad about it, but it
Speaker 1: also makes you more equipped, right, but it's still not fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Question number four got two more left. Question
Speaker 2: number four, You've obviously already began living and will leave
Speaker 2: an incredible legacy for the work that you've done. If
Speaker 2: you could describe what that you'd want that legacy to read,
Speaker 2: if someone was reading it or hearing it, what would
Speaker 2: it What would it say.
Speaker 1: That she helped more young people feel seen? Because I
Speaker 1: start with young people, because with one word we can
Speaker 1: change a kid's life, we can lift them up, but
Speaker 1: that same wrong, one word can crush them forever. And
Speaker 1: those are the building blocks of our humanity. How we
Speaker 1: treat our kids, all of them right? And so I
Speaker 1: hope that my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for
Speaker 1: young people.
Speaker 2: A fifth and final question we asked this to every
Speaker 2: guest who's ever been on the show. More appropriate with
Speaker 2: guests like yourselves. But if you could create one law
Speaker 2: in the world that everyone had to follow, what would
Speaker 2: it be.
Speaker 1: Everybody should have a home to live in, food to eat,
Speaker 1: a job, to go to an education period. There would
Speaker 1: be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world. Now
Speaker 1: there could be levels of that. You know, we would
Speaker 1: not live in a world where so few have so
Speaker 1: much and so many have nothing, and that law would
Speaker 1: create some kind of equity. We have this trickle down approach, right,
Speaker 1: that's the basis of a capitalistic economy, right, But that's
Speaker 1: not happening. It's not trickling the law would it would
Speaker 1: require in whatever way. If we're not trickling voluntarily, then
Speaker 1: we need to be forced to trickle mandatory trickling down.
Speaker 2: What's blocking that, what's what's doing that?
Speaker 1: I think fear? Yeah, I mean I write about fear
Speaker 1: because I think fear is at the source of so much,
Speaker 1: because I think the people who have a lot are
Speaker 1: afraid of not having enough. And it's not rational, right,
Speaker 1: But we fear the other two And so it's hard
Speaker 1: to give to people that you think you should be
Speaker 1: afraid of because you can't connect with them. We're all human,
Speaker 1: We're so alike. I don't care about skin color or
Speaker 1: how we pray or how we love. We're all the same.
Speaker 1: What keeps us from seeing that is fear. I don't
Speaker 1: know you. You're different, so I got to be afraid
Speaker 1: of you, and I can't. I have to make sure
Speaker 1: you don't come into my space. And then we live
Speaker 1: in a culture where people with power prey on fear
Speaker 1: to get more power. I'm going to make you all
Speaker 1: afraid of each other, and then I can come in
Speaker 1: and rule it all. I think fear is set the
Speaker 1: root of that shall.
Speaker 2: I deeply appreciate your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence,
Speaker 2: but also the deep energy you bring to conversations like these,
Speaker 2: and I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry, and
Speaker 2: I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on on purpose,
Speaker 2: and I hope this will be the first of many
Speaker 2: conversations together. So thanky, thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1: We'll talk again.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy
Speaker 2: my interview with doctor Daniel Ahman on how to change
Speaker 2: your life by changing your brain.
Speaker 3: If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with
Speaker 3: a healthy brain.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over
Speaker 3: a thousand convicted felons and over one hundred murderers, and
Speaker 3: their brains are very damage