1
00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,879
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,120
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,720
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,119
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,040
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,599
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,320
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

13
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

14
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,479
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Happy Christmas break. We're gonna go away

15
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,399
Speaker 1: for a little bit for some much needed rest. I

16
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:11,880
Speaker 1: think you need rest more than I do.

17
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,759
Speaker 2: Follow Oh, I'm not sure about that. You've got your

18
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,480
Speaker 2: hands in a lot of different things.

19
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,679
Speaker 1: I do. I do. It's hard for me to take

20
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: a vacation, and we've talked about that for you too.

21
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,319
Speaker 1: But I was thinking of taking the fam to maybe

22
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,040
Speaker 1: Vermont to do some skiing. But I have, as an

23
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,039
Speaker 1: older adult, a fear of hurting myself skiing, even though

24
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: I skied a lot when I was younger, and when

25
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 1: I went to Boston University, we would go to Burlington

26
00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,919
Speaker 1: and you know, ski there. So I just love Vermont

27
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,520
Speaker 1: in general. But have you done a lot of skiing.

28
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:46,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've talked about that.

29
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,960
Speaker 2: I haven't done a lot of skiing, having spent most

30
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 2: of my adult life kind of sort of in the

31
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 2: Bay Area. I've skied a handful of times up in Tahoe.

32
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 2: I can get down the side of a mountain. It's

33
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 2: not pretty. I've gone on black Diamond slopes and I've survived,

34
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, But I've also left some gouges in the

35
00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,440
Speaker 2: side of mountains, you know. So I'm I'm not. I

36
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 2: don't consider myself a good skier, but I can ski,

37
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 2: and you know, of course I live in Colorado now

38
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 2: it's sort of ski heaven. And I will tell you

39
00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,800
Speaker 2: I do notice the difference. You know. We skied once,

40
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 2: took the family up to Breckenridge, and that's when I

41
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,799
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I now understand what powder is. It's

42
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 2: so different than what I experienced during the handful of

43
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,040
Speaker 2: times I skied out there in the Tahoe area.

44
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: When I was at Boston University, they would take us

45
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: on a bus up there in the winter for I mean,

46
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: I feel like it was every weekend. It was almost

47
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,359
Speaker 1: like a shuttle and you could go to Burlington, Vermont

48
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: and ski. And it was my first time really skiing.

49
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,919
Speaker 1: I had skied and Breckenridge when I was a kid,

50
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: but I decided to go when I was in college.

51
00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,120
Speaker 1: But I got pretty far and I remember the person

52
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 1: who was operating the tram or whatever we were on saying, okay,

53
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,120
Speaker 1: well watch out for the weather. And I thought, what

54
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,959
Speaker 1: does that mean? And I kid you not. I hit

55
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 1: every weather system available going down that mountain. It was

56
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 1: like it started with snow and then it literally started

57
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: hailing part of the way through, and then it was rain. Yeah,

58
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,799
Speaker 1: And I just thought, I don't know if I can

59
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 1: how many times I can do? This might be it

60
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: for me.

61
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 2: Sure.

62
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 1: It was the weirdest thing. And it was ice.

63
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,400
Speaker 2: It felt like ice, yeah, you know, And that's at

64
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 2: least that's been my experience in Colorado. You know, that's

65
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 2: when I skied and Breckadridge. When we first started, it

66
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,880
Speaker 2: was like white out, blizzard conditions, you know, and you're

67
00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: going how are we going to make a day out

68
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 2: of this? And then it ended up clearing up and

69
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 2: becoming very nice. You know what. The weather up in

70
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,119
Speaker 2: the mountains, of course, can change on a dime.

71
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: Well, I love the mountains. I was thinking about my

72
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: favorite landscape, and I think it is mountains, and it

73
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: is agricultural land, just like vast amount of land, almost

74
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,200
Speaker 1: like the marshes that I showed you in one of

75
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 1: our episodes, you know, just like green for acres and

76
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 1: acres and acres. But I have friends who live by

77
00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: oceans and that's all there is for them, So I.

78
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 2: Go, yeah, you know, I love the mountains. I love

79
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,680
Speaker 2: rugged ocean coastline, like northern California, you know, like the

80
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 2: Mendocino going up north from there. I'm not a big

81
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,719
Speaker 2: ocean beach person. I don't like to just lounge on

82
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 2: a beach. If I'm going to be by the ocean,

83
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,800
Speaker 2: I'd rather at least be in the ocean. Now, I

84
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 2: will tell you, you know, your love of agricultural land.

85
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 2: I've seen like in Iowa. I was shocked at this

86
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 2: beautiful rolling crops and old barns, I mean just amazing beautiful.

87
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 2: But then I had to drive home from Madison, Wisconsin

88
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,720
Speaker 2: to Colorado Springs, and there was a stretch from Nebraska

89
00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,040
Speaker 2: to Colorado through nothing but cornfields that were flat as

90
00:04:59,080 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 2: far as you could see.

91
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 1: You didn't like that.

92
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,880
Speaker 2: Not my thing at all, the most boring drive I've

93
00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 2: ever done.

94
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, Nebraska. Well I understand that. I mean my

95
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 1: dad was from Missouri. I've said that before, and I

96
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: love Missouri, but it felt very flat to me. Two

97
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 1: But I have a good friend who adores the desert,

98
00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 1: and I don't know how I feel about the desert.

99
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: I have been intending to go to West Texas Forever,

100
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 1: which is supposed to be just unbelievably beautiful, So I'm

101
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 1: going to try to keep an open mind. But I

102
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,840
Speaker 1: was doing a shoot for one of my documentaries in Perumph, Nevada.

103
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 1: It's tiny. I know, you have that quizzical look.

104
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,159
Speaker 2: That I had never heard of it. But if it's

105
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,040
Speaker 2: if it's somewhere in Nevada, I can only imagine what

106
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 2: it looks like.

107
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 1: Parumph, Nevada. And it was gorgeous. I mean, just hills, dunes,

108
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 1: mountains of really white sand. But again going back to

109
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,320
Speaker 1: every kind of fear I have driving through it by

110
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 1: yourself when you don't. I was alone when you don't

111
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,280
Speaker 1: see people for hours, you know, on these roads because

112
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 1: we were really deep into the Mohave Desert. It was

113
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 1: a little scary because I thought, what happens if I

114
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: break down? What happens, you know, in every scenario. But

115
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: that's the scaredy cat in me.

116
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,359
Speaker 2: You mummify, that's what happens.

117
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,159
Speaker 1: Oh okay, anyway, Yeah, I'm.

118
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,720
Speaker 2: Not a big desert person, but you know, like said

119
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,720
Speaker 2: a Tucson, Arizona, Yeah, yeah, you know, with those amazing

120
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,720
Speaker 2: cacti that you see and the road Runner coyote and

121
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,119
Speaker 2: Roadrunner cartoons. I mean, I thought that was really cool.

122
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:37,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's shift over to California, where I know at

123
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,159
Speaker 1: least one bit of your heart is because I know

124
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 1: that you were an Army brat and moved around everywhere.

125
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,840
Speaker 1: But I think you glow the most when we talk

126
00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 1: about California. So I was an Air Force brat, but

127
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 1: you are close air force brat. Pardon me, Okay, let's

128
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,919
Speaker 1: just jump right into this. Okay, let's set the scene.

129
00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 1: We are in Covina, California, which is it's twenty two

130
00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 1: miles east of downtown LA in the San Gabriel Valley.

131
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that or no?

132
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 2: I know of it. I can't say I've ever been there.

133
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,559
Speaker 1: So we're starting with a nine to one one call,

134
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 1: and it is nineteen fifty six, is our year. It's

135
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: July around ten pm. There's a sergeant with the La

136
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office named Harry Andre and he's responding to

137
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 1: this call from a guy named William. His middle name

138
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,120
Speaker 1: Dale Archard, he'll go by Dale. So he and his wife,

139
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: who is named Zella Austin Archard, have been assaulted and

140
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,320
Speaker 1: robbed in their home. So it sounds like a home invasion.

141
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 1: I have in my note here, Paul. It literally says,

142
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: let me get through this story. And that's a note

143
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: to you.

144
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,840
Speaker 2: Got it, You got it, put up.

145
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 1: Your hand if it drives you crazy. So this is

146
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 1: what Dale says. When the sergeant shows up. He says

147
00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 1: that the offenders are two Mexican men. One is armed

148
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: with a knife, the other one has a gun. They

149
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 1: broke into the house about thirty minutes earlier, and he

150
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: immediately called on When they left, they detained him in

151
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 1: the living room and injected him with a hypodermic syringe.

152
00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 1: And then he says one of the men covered his

153
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 1: face with his own bathrobe, and then they went into

154
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 1: Zella's bedroom. For the record, she's forty eight, he's forty four.

155
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,720
Speaker 1: Dale seems to be seemingly a normal forty four year

156
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: old man, perfectly capable of defending himself if needed. So

157
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 1: Zella just also for full transparency the end of this

158
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 1: she is not sexually assaulted, She is not murdered. She

159
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 1: can tell this story. She says that there was one

160
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,440
Speaker 1: man who went into the bedroom. He was disguised. He

161
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:54,559
Speaker 1: tried to incapacitate her. She fights back, and the man

162
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: in disguise leaves the bedroom. Dale is yelling at the

163
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 1: guy you know, to stop, and he is yelling to

164
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 1: Zella just let him have whatever he needs to have

165
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 1: and then he'll leave. He's essentially begging her to just

166
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,080
Speaker 1: not fight this guy again. So the guy comes back

167
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: in the bedroom. She allows him to put a pillowcase

168
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 1: over her head and to bind her arms, and he

169
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,360
Speaker 1: injects her with a hypodermic syringe, and then they made

170
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,840
Speaker 1: off with about one hundred dollars from Dale's wallet. They

171
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,199
Speaker 1: found about another five hundred dollars in the house. They

172
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,680
Speaker 1: took that, they took a revolver. This is all worth

173
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: about seven thousand dollars today. And like I said, Zella

174
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: said that she was not seriously assaulted. This seems bananas.

175
00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 1: The hypodermic needle or the hypodermic syringe is what alerts

176
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 1: me the most, I think to this whole thing being

177
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,680
Speaker 1: just really off the wall. Do you want to comment

178
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 1: now or do you want to hear more a little

179
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 1: bit more about what's happening.

180
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 2: In this case? Yeah? I want to hear more.

181
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: Okay. Sergeant Andrea takes a look around after he hears

182
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,839
Speaker 1: the story. He tells Zella to sit down because she's

183
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,440
Speaker 1: really dizzy and totally freaked out. He looks at her

184
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: wrists and there are rope burns on her wrists. There

185
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,559
Speaker 1: are two puncture wounds in her buttocks. But nothing has

186
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 1: really been ransacked. You know, there's some cash that was taken.

187
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960
Speaker 1: As I mentioned before, there's no signs of forced entry

188
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 1: that we know of which, of course, you know we've

189
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: talked about if you have a gun, there's not going

190
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 1: to be any signs of forced entry. Jewelry is in

191
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: plain sight, nobody takes it. They find a syringe in

192
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 1: a nearby vacant lot. They also find a vial of

193
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 1: long acting n pH you dash eighty insulin, and half

194
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: the bottle has been used. There's also a twenty gauge

195
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: hypodermic needle that is found in their bathroom, like not

196
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 1: one of theirs. It's laying like it had been tossed.

197
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 1: Then Sergeant Andre calls a doctor. The doctor comes and

198
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 1: looks them over because Zella is feeling very dizzy. The

199
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 1: doctor prescribes second all and it's a very potent barbituate

200
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,199
Speaker 1: to calm her nerves, and he leaves. Is there something

201
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,959
Speaker 1: to say now or do you want to keep learning

202
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: more info?

203
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? Maybe just a brief comment, you know, right now?

204
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 2: Up front, this sounds like a standard home invasion two

205
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,559
Speaker 2: eleven home evasion robbery. The use of the hypodermic syringes

206
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 2: is interesting. And if they're injecting insulin, the only thing

207
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,559
Speaker 2: I can think of is they're just trying to plunge

208
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 2: blood glucose levels down in the victims so that they're

209
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 2: not you know, kind of like she's feeling dizzy, So

210
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 2: in essence, she's going into this hypo glycemic state to

211
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 2: where maybe I don't know if it'd render her unconscious,

212
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 2: depending on how much insulin is there, but most certainly

213
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 2: energy levels would go down. That's odd, you know, I'm

214
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,480
Speaker 2: not sure what the offenders are thinking if in fact

215
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,119
Speaker 2: that's all they're injecting. It's kind of a very interesting

216
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,200
Speaker 2: twist to a typical home invasion.

217
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they don't find evidence that Dale was injected,

218
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: which doesn't make sense to me either, if you're gonna

219
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 1: so to me. At first, I thought this was a

220
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 1: sophisticated chloroform almost kind of thing, like, you know, incapacitator.

221
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 1: She knocks out, why not do that to Dale?

222
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 2: Also?

223
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, let me let me point this

224
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: a little bit out. Zella throughout the night is sweating profusely.

225
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 1: Her breathing becomes labored, she starts salivating, and eight o'clock

226
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,079
Speaker 1: the next morning she starts convulsing, and she dies within

227
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 1: a day or two.

228
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 2: Well, now it's going to get to where, you know,

229
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 2: what does toxicology show, what's the autopsy result show? The

230
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 2: offenders are very superficial in terms of the financial gain.

231
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,320
Speaker 2: They're just taking cash. They're not taking other valuables that

232
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 2: they would have to put effort out like the jewelry

233
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 2: in order to be able to sell it. You know,

234
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,080
Speaker 2: maybe this is more targeted against Dale and Zella than

235
00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 2: an actual financially motivated crime.

236
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's go, because you had requested the coroner's report,

237
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 1: here it is. The report says there are four puncture

238
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 1: wounds in Zella's buttocks, two more injection sites than what

239
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 1: was noted at the crime scene, which I was surprised,

240
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,719
Speaker 1: but remember Dale called out to her, just let them

241
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,119
Speaker 1: do whatever they're going to do, and so she complied.

242
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 1: There are no poisonous substances in Zella's body. They think

243
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: that this was an overdose of insulin, but there are

244
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,119
Speaker 1: no tests at the time that can reliably indicate excessive

245
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: insulin in the blood or tissues of deceased people. Chief

246
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: of toxicology also sees no reason why Zella would have

247
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 1: been taking any kind of insulin. There were no cell

248
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,280
Speaker 1: tumors in her pancreas, there were no signs of a

249
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 1: pathological disease that would have been treated by insulin. At

250
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,200
Speaker 1: the end of the day, the cause of her death

251
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 1: is reported to the bronco pneumonia due to coma of

252
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 1: undetermined origin.

253
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 2: I guess I have to assume that, you know, a

254
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 2: high dose of insulin could potentially do that. She had

255
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 2: four puncture wounds and there is multiple syringes possibly found

256
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 2: at the scene.

257
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 1: They found one twenty gauge hypodermic needle, and remember they

258
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 1: found a vial of long acting I don't know what

259
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 1: U eighty means insulin, and half the bottle had been used.

260
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 2: This is where I would be wanting to talk to

261
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 2: a toxicologist about exactly what's going on. She just doesn't

262
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,600
Speaker 2: have insulin in her system. I mean, she also has

263
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 2: the barb in her system, you know, which is a sedative.

264
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 2: You know, So if her glucose levels are just being

265
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 2: absolutely plummeted down to zero because she has such high

266
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 2: insulin and then you throw a sedative on top of that,

267
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 2: is that could that induce a coma? You know? I

268
00:14:58,360 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: would think that's a possibility.

269
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 1: And remember, you know they found the insulin bottle in

270
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 1: a in like a parking lot, yeah, a vacant lot nearby.

271
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 1: I don't think they're finding that at eleven pm at

272
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 1: night the night this happened, which is when Sergeant Andre

273
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: reported to the scene. They must I have to imagine

274
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 1: they would have found it the next morning. So he's

275
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 1: the doctor's giving her barbituate not knowing it sounds like

276
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 1: what she's been injected with. Nobody knows what she's been

277
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 1: injected with, because nobody's found the bottle yet. So that

278
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 1: seems haphazard to me, not knowing when you've got a

279
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 1: woman saying they poked me with a needle, not knowing

280
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 1: what she was shot up with.

281
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 2: No, well, for sure, I mean you could. I mean,

282
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 2: she could have been, you know, shot up with a

283
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 2: different barb, or she could have been shot up with

284
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 2: another sedative. And now the doc is giving her another

285
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 2: barb on top of it, and it just is now

286
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 2: crashing her system, you know, into a very depressed state.

287
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 1: So what Sergeant andre comes up with, I mean, the

288
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,000
Speaker 1: things that he's trying to piece together are interesting. He

289
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 1: had asked Ella to describe the masked man, because remember

290
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: there was another one in the other room with Dale.

291
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: She kept saying things like my husband's build, my husband's height,

292
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: but she did not say this was my husband. And

293
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 1: Sergeant Andrea really starts to suspect Dale of something because

294
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 1: you know, if you remember the story, Zella is alive,

295
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,520
Speaker 1: and is able to recount all this stuff. But she

296
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 1: does not see two men. She only sees one man

297
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 1: who's in disguise. Then that man leaves. Dale screams out,

298
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,160
Speaker 1: just let him do what he needs to do, Zella,

299
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 1: and then the masked man comes back inside. So she

300
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: can't confirm. There's nobody can confirm except Dale. There's two men,

301
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 1: and Sergeant Andrea is kind of calling bs on this.

302
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's anything about Dale specifically. I

303
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 1: just think he doesn't think the pieces are coming together

304
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 1: very well.

305
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 2: He may be on to something. You know that Dale

306
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 2: set up some sort of ruse to eliminate his wife

307
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,200
Speaker 2: and try to get away with it. You know that

308
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 2: this is a very interesting twist. I would say, let me.

309
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,159
Speaker 1: Tell you a little bit about Dale, since Sergeant Andrea

310
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 1: is keeping a close eye on him. He was born

311
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 1: on an Arkansas ranch in nineteen twelve, and he's been

312
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,399
Speaker 1: married numerous times. He got married at seventeen, then he

313
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 1: left that woman after a few years and moved to California.

314
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 1: He bopped around a little bit. He ended up working

315
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,920
Speaker 1: at several hospitals. He was an orderly He was also

316
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 1: an attendant in a different one but hospitals. He married

317
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,640
Speaker 1: at twenty three, he left her too, and then there

318
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 1: was a big gap. He got married again when he

319
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: was thirty seven, this time to a nurse. This is

320
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 1: when the legal stuff starts to happen, and it will

321
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: lead up to Zella, which will then lead to quite

322
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,160
Speaker 1: another host of interesting things happening. And his nurse wife

323
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 1: were charged with a legal possession of morphine and they

324
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: were sentenced to five years probation. But a second drug

325
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 1: offense landed Dale in a minimum security prison in Chino,

326
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,639
Speaker 1: from which he promptly escaped. Then he moved over to

327
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: San Quentin. In fifty one, he finished off his term

328
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 1: at San Quentin and that finished off his third marriage

329
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 1: to the nurse. Then he gets out in fifty three

330
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 1: and he goes back to southern California and he starts

331
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 1: running scams. So Dale is not a good guy, is

332
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,959
Speaker 1: what Andrea is figuring out. There are a lot of

333
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: scams women he dated for their money. And then in

334
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 1: fifty six he meets Zella. Within six months they get married,

335
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 1: and now she is dead and we find out that

336
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 1: they had been married two months, that she had sold

337
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: her house for ten thousand dollars, which is now one

338
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen thousand today and escrow closed on July thirteenth,

339
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,479
Speaker 1: eleven days before this home invasion. He had written two

340
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 1: checks on the shared account and basically to call her money,

341
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: and he bought a thunderbird. He collected seven thousand dollars

342
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: today six hundred then from her life insurance policy. This

343
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 1: is not a wealthy woman, but it sounds like wealthier

344
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: than he is. And you know, all of this is

345
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: to say it doesn't mean that he killed her. But

346
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 1: Dale has a history of loving and leaving women. This

347
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: appears to be the first one that he left who

348
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: is ended up dead shortly thereafter.

349
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 2: Well, Dale has that medical background, you know, and so

350
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 2: now you have this this oddity of these Hispanic males

351
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,439
Speaker 2: injecting zella apparently with insulin. You know, so there is

352
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 2: overlap with Dale's skill set, if you will. And you

353
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 2: know this whole set of circumstances around, you know, Zella

354
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: cell in the house, getting blocks of money, Dale being

355
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 2: involved in scams. You know, things are really starting to

356
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 2: stack up that maybe this was a ruse. I just

357
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: wonder the injection of insulin. How confident could an offender

358
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 2: be that the insulin would actually kill Zella. So you know,

359
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,120
Speaker 2: that's I think something that you know, was there an

360
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 2: intent to kill or was this an intent to disable?

361
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 2: Interesting to see how this plays out.

362
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,959
Speaker 1: So in this case, Zella is pacifying herself because her

363
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 1: husband is saying, stay still and let him do whatever

364
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: he needs to do. So she is not willingly, but

365
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: she is receiving four shots. According to the corner.

366
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, I guess one of the things,

367
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 2: you know, because there's this, you know, one theory that

368
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 2: Dale is actually the offender. He's the one that's injecting Zella.

369
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: But if if Zella, while she's still cognizant, has a

370
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: male in the room with her and she's hearing Dale's

371
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: voice outside the room saying let him do whatever? Now,

372
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 2: do we have an accessory to Dale helping Dale out.

373
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: What I believed happened. And the way Dale described Enzela

374
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: is she fought this guy, he backed off and left

375
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: the room and then Dale is saying, honey, just let

376
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: him do what he's going to do, like yelling back

377
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,239
Speaker 1: toward her. When she's by herself, she's not running out

378
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: of OK. So she never sees anybody, but this one

379
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: masked man, and I think Dale's probably around the corner,

380
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 1: so that's the issue. She does confirm there's somebody who's

381
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: masks there, but when she hears Dale, the guy is

382
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: out of the room, and of course I think Andrea

383
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: thinks it's suspicious when she's sort of like, yeah, he

384
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: was my husband's height. Yeah, I mean, she is not

385
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 1: expressing suspicion.

386
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: Sure, So okay, So I thought possibly the scenario suggested

387
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,679
Speaker 2: that there is somebody else present, But the way that

388
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: you just explained it, Dale could have done this whole

389
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 2: thing himself.

390
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: So Dale has a quick rebound because he uh, just

391
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: a few months after Zella's death, he moves in with

392
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: a forty six year old woman named Juanita Plum. They

393
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 1: met in Tijuana. Doesn't sound like a grieving husband, but whatever.

394
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: She is a very well off divorcee. She owns a

395
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars house in Monrovia, which is in La County,

396
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: and she has a lot of expensive furniture, car, fourteen

397
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in notes and bonds, lots of money essentially,

398
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: so her estate these days would be worth seven hundred

399
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: and sixty five thousand dollars. So This is a big

400
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: for him, a much bigger jump to go from Zella

401
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: to Juanita. In five months of being with this woman, Juanita,

402
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: he cashes out all of her assets and they file

403
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: insurance claims for two incidents of arson in nineteen fifty seven.

404
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: They collect between eleven and twelve thousand dollars, which is

405
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: one hundreds of you know, one hundred and fifty thousand

406
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 1: dollars ish today. The money runs out in late August

407
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty seven, and they separate, then they reconcile,

408
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: and then they marry, and bad things are going to

409
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: start happening. But running through that much money in a

410
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: state that is you know, almost eight hundred thousand dollars

411
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: today and what looks to me to be about a year,

412
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: even less than a year, seems incredible.

413
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and this is where investigating this. Even though

414
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: you have what appears to be you know, robbery slash

415
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 2: homicide going on, this is a white collar type crime.

416
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: And anytime he has something like this, it's follow the money.

417
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: So if Dale is you know, in essence, embezzling money

418
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: from ultimately this this next wife of his, you know,

419
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: where is that money going? How is he spending. It,

420
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: is he gambling? It is he hiding? It is he

421
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: tucking it away? Does he have a different life in

422
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: which now he's got a fancy house of cars and

423
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 2: maybe another wife on the side. You know, there's all

424
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: sorts of possibilities going on here.

425
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what happens to Juanita. They go

426
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: on a honeymoon. They go to Vegas. She falls ill

427
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: in their hotel room. She is here's the description. She's incoherent,

428
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: She's slipping in and out of consciousness. She is sweating,

429
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: which sounds very similar to what happened with Zella. Her

430
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,959
Speaker 1: face is bloated. At the Southern Nevada Memorial Hospital, Dale

431
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: tells doctors that Juanita has been taking barbituates and drinking

432
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: bourbon to go to sleep. At first, they just charge her.

433
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: They tell Dale that she should just drink some black

434
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: coffee and stay on her feet. I mean, that seems

435
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: like terrible advice. But by that afternoon her condition has

436
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: significantly declined. He takes her back to the hospital and

437
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: when she gets back to the hospital, she is chematose,

438
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: She's hardly breathing, and she is cyanautic, which you said

439
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: as a lack of oxygen right.

440
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: Kind of like if she has this pinkish hue, almost

441
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 2: as if she's been exposed to carbon monoxide.

442
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: Okay, her pupils are dilated, her body temperature is subnormal,

443
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: and her pulse is extremely low. They prescribe glucose. Does

444
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: that make sense?

445
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 2: Well, are they suspecting that she's hypoglycemic?

446
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, because what he had said is barbituous.

447
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: Is that a tonic for Barbes and bourbon?

448
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 2: I don't know. You know, that's that's that's interesting, you know.

449
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: I think what they're seeing is is that she is,

450
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, somehow in a sedated state, and they're trying

451
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: to infuse her with the glucose to provide her sort

452
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: of like kind of an energy source for her body

453
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: to recover from. But they must be suspecting that, and

454
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: maybe they did some blood tests and going, oh, geez,

455
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: she's hypoglycemic. We need to get her her glucose, her

456
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: blood glucose up.

457
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: Well, I think this bit will be helpful. She starts

458
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: convulsing and then she dies, and the which is I

459
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: think what we knew would happen. The doctor says that

460
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: he believes she died of cardiac failure resulting from an

461
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: overdose of barbituous, so they believe Dale. Okay, and Sergeant

462
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: Andre from La County, this is not as jurisdiction, this

463
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: is Nevada, this isn't California. But he finds out about

464
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: jan Nita's death and he informs the Clark County Sheriff's

465
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: Department in Nevada that Dale's previous wife had also died,

466
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: just you know, a year earlier. But it's too late

467
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: for an extensive autopsy because they believed Dale, and Dale

468
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: said cremator.

469
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: Of course he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but at least,

470
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: you know, the LA detective is on it. He obviously

471
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: has tremendous suspicions about Dale, and so he's he's like

472
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 2: a dog on a bone and he's going to take

473
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: advantage if he sees that old Dale's involved in another case. Well,

474
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: now potentially we can get him for something.

475
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: You know, I usually say this is what the story

476
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: is about. The insulin part of the story is really interesting.

477
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: We have talked about people who target, you know, their

478
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: spouses for money, but kind of the way of thinking,

479
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: you know, saying that this is an accident or trying

480
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: to set it up like it's an accident. It seems

481
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: to actually work in Dale's case if this is where

482
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: we're heading, because so far you have doctors who have

483
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: returned the sick patient to him, presumably for him to

484
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: make her more sick. I mean, there's no bones about it.

485
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: Obviously Dale is not a good person here.

486
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and these doctors, you know, they don't know

487
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: Dale's history, they don't know what's going on. They're not

488
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 2: even necessarily suspecting that there's a crime that happened, and

489
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: they're just now dealing with a sick person. And they

490
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: have the husband saying, you know, altering you know, at

491
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: least offering up a plausible reason why she is exhibiting

492
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: the symptoms that she is, you know, and whether whether

493
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: she died of barbs and bourbon or she died of

494
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 2: insulin right now, I think is still a toss up

495
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: in this case.

496
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: Well, when Nita dies and her estate is divided among

497
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: her living relatives, she was getting life insurance from her

498
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 1: husband's you know, her previous husband's death, so she was

499
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: getting some money in so it gets divvied up and

500
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: she leaves Dale one dollar. Well done, je Nita.

501
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: Oh so there was some marital strife before she died.

502
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure she knew he blew everything the first time,

503
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: but then they ended up getting married. She left him

504
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: and then she went back to him and they got married.

505
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: But this is what happened. Mean, you know, you don't

506
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: trust your spouse. Obviously, she left him a dollar, which

507
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure just pissed him off beyond belief. Okay, moving

508
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: on to another person. A year passes, he doesn't spend

509
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: very much time. It just seems like he's going so fast.

510
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's money or what that is,

511
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: but it seems like he's not using a lot of

512
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: common sense about suspicion. But he's gotten away with two

513
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: so far.

514
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: Sure, And of course I think money is a big deal.

515
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: When you think if he had the equivalent of today

516
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: eight hundred thousand dollars that he just completely blew in

517
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: a year, you know, he's needing to have income coming

518
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: in in order to do whatever he's doing with that money, and.

519
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: We don't know what he's doing with it yet. We

520
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: don't know. So he gets smart and he starts to

521
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: use an alias, probably because that psky sergeant Andrea is

522
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: floating around in May of nineteen fifty nine, so we

523
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: started in nineteen fifty seven, so this is just two years.

524
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: He uses an alias Arden, so this is a little confusing.

525
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: But when Juanita and Dale separate, there's no need for

526
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: like a legal separation because they were never married. They

527
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: are separated for about a year. In that year, he

528
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: marries somebody else, a woman named Gladys Stuart. They end

529
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: up divorcing when Juanita, the rich woman, decides that she'll

530
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: take him back, so he divorces Gladys within that year

531
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: and goes back to Juanita. So this is like a

532
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: real quickie wife in between. So after Juanita dies a

533
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: year later, Dale decides he wants to remarry the woman

534
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: whom he married when he was separated for about a

535
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: year from Juanita. So remember that woman's name was Gladys Stuart.

536
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: I don't know why Gladys agrees to this, who knows,

537
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: but Gladys is the ex wife of one of Dale's friends,

538
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: who is a guy named Frank Stewart. This does not

539
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: seem to be a problem at all for Frank or

540
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: for Dale, and in fact, they are kind of going

541
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: into business together and they are planning a combined business

542
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: and pleasure trip to Vegas for the next year. You know,

543
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: Gladys will come along. So she was married to Frank,

544
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: divorced him, then married Dale, then they got divorced, and

545
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: then she remarries Dale. After Janita dies.

546
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: It's hard to stay on top of that.

547
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,239
Speaker 1: It sounds exhausting for everybody involved. Yes, So Dale and

548
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: Frank decide that they're going to go to the airport

549
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,239
Speaker 1: which is now that Harry Reid International Airport, before it

550
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: was called McCarran International Airport, and this is in nineteen sixty.

551
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: So before they get on the plane, they stop in

552
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: the bathroom. Frank slips on some debris which it sounds

553
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: like was a banana peel, and my reaction was seriously

554
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: a banan appeal. But he slips and he strikes his

555
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: head on the counter top in the bathroom, so I

556
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: know that this is convoluted. Dale is scared that Frank

557
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: might be concussed. He takes him to the Southern Nevada

558
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: Memorial Hospital emergency room that is where Wanda had been.

559
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: By ten thirty that night, Frank is dead and these

560
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: are all the same symptoms. Yeah, he does have a

561
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: contusion on his head, but you know, all the same symptoms,

562
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: and the doctors say it is a cerebral hemorrhage, possibly

563
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: related to a history of cardiovascular disease. No charges.

564
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: So is it possible when Frank is in this bathroom

565
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: at the airport that Dale from behind strikes him with

566
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: some sort of weapon, right, yeah, or grabs him and

567
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: hits his head against the counter or something, you know.

568
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: So Dale's all about Dale, and he's going to eliminate

569
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: and financially drain the assets about anybody in his life.

570
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think I think that is a

571
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: good way of thinking about it. So he hits Frank

572
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: on the head because Frank is not going to be

573
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: someone who's going to voluntarily, you know, take a syringe

574
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: to the butt. And then he goes to the hospital

575
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: and in the meantime, you know, because he's concussed, he

576
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, gets these syringes. He gets a syringe full

577
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: of insulin and then same thing and then dies. I mean,

578
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: is the hospital must see this every once in a

579
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: while or some I mean, these are I guess, are

580
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: these normal symptoms? The one I've been describing having a

581
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: hard time breathing, you know, dilated pupils. It's just the

582
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: same thing with all of these people. It sounds like, yeah, well, it'd.

583
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: Be interesting because I could see where there's a variety

584
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: of different medical conditions that all have the same symptoms

585
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: that you know, these medical professionals see, you know, day

586
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: in and day out. You know, I'm thinking Dale hits

587
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, Frank in the back of the head, you know,

588
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: in this airport restroom, and while he's tending to Frank,

589
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: he's injecting him in that that bathroom, you know, because

590
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: he could do that right through the clothes.

591
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's in a trauma so he's not feeling

592
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: anything most likely.

593
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Frank is like, oh my, you know, whether he's

594
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: even still conscious, you know. But at the same time,

595
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: you know, Dale's just got this this formula that has

596
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: worked on the women, and now he's taken out a guy.

597
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this is just a kind of it's kind

598
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 1: of crazy. Is this a serial killer? Because we've talked

599
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: about this definition before. It's not for sexual gratification, but

600
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: it is multiple people.

601
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, when you take a look at

602
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: the definitions of a serial killer and they have a

603
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: tendency to be I feel kind of too vague, you know,

604
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: but fundamentally it's having killed three or more with a

605
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: cooling off period in between. The definition doesn't discuss the

606
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: psychology of the offender. It's just have you killed three

607
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 2: or more and there's time in between each homicide. Then yes,

608
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: you have somebody that is by definition a serial killer.

609
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: And this is a type of predator. Now, this is

610
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: a predator that is financially motivated. So this is very

611
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: different than you know, your Ted Bundize or your Jeffrey Dahmers.

612
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: You know, you're sexually motivated, your fantasy motivated predators. But

613
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: it is a type of serial killer. This is very

614
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: different than your mass killer or your spree killer, which

615
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: people often convolute with serial killer. Your mass or spree

616
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: killers are in essence, in one event which can be

617
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: extended over a period of time. But going out and

618
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 2: killing multiple people, such as going into a school yard

619
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: or going into a fast food restaurant and killing multiple

620
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: people completely different psychology than a serial killer, because that

621
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: serial killer, over an expanse of time, is now committing

622
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: these crimes for their own personal gain. For Dale, it's financial.

623
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: For DiAngelo, Golden State killer, there's a sexual component.

624
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: The story keeps getting walder and wilder. As far as

625
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, Dale in the wake of Frank's death is

626
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm presuming excited because he's attached to two different life

627
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: insurance policies. Now my notes say that Frank took them

628
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: out on himself. I don't know about that, because one

629
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: of these policies is for Gladys the beneficiary, who is

630
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: of course, you know, frank sex wife, Dale's current wife,

631
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: but also Dale's mother, Jenny May Archerd. And I have

632
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: no idea why that would have happened. I think it

633
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: must have been Dale must have been the one that

634
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: took those outright. The policies in today's money would have

635
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: been about nine hundred.

636
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: Thousand dollars total, pretty good money.

637
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: So he says, ye be. He files claims for the

638
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: insurance money, but they are dismissed, and I think that

639
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Gladys finally says we're getting a divorce and she took

640
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: the money. So in nineteen sixty one, there is an

641
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: officer in charge of all traffic related deaths in La County.

642
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: He's called to investigate the death of a young man

643
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: named Bernie Kirk Archerd. He's fifteen, and he is Dale's

644
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: nephew from his brother, and Dale is also one of

645
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: Bernie's guardians because of the my brother has died, Dale

646
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: is a guardian. According to the police, the reason why

647
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: this sergeant is showing up is because Bernie had been

648
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: injured in a hit and run accident a month earlier.

649
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: He died thirteen days later at the Long Beach Memorial Hospital.

650
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: There is no evidence that he was ever involved in

651
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: a hit and run accident, So I think that this

652
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: was reported by somebody and we presumed Dale, and when

653
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: they came out to investigate, there's no any report. So

654
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: let me just tell you about the circumstances real quick.

655
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: Bernie's mother, the teenager's mother, had deserted the family when

656
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: he was a child. His father, who is Dale's brother,

657
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: was Everett Archard. I told you that he had died.

658
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: He was an engineer at an oil refinery. He had

659
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: died of a heart attack in nineteen sixty, which was

660
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: almost two years earlier than when the Sun died. Before

661
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: his death, Everett had warned women to not marry his brother.

662
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: He said he's a lying bastard. And when Everett died

663
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: of that heart attack, Dale was right by his side.

664
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: And now Everett's son is dead from a car accident

665
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: that never actually happened, and is there.

666
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: A life insurance on Bernie and Dale the beneficiary?

667
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Since Everett died, Bernie had been living with Jenny Archerd,

668
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: who is Dale's mother, who had received money Remember from

669
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: Frank Stuart's life insurance policy that we're presuming Dale took

670
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: out on him, thinking he would get that money from

671
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: his mother and it didn't happen. So Bernie had been

672
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: living with his grandmother in Long Beach, and Dale was

673
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: stealing Everett's life insurance policy that was left to their mother.

674
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: And then it gets worse because Bernie is hit quote

675
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: unquote by a car. He goes into a coma before

676
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: he dies. Dale's mom, Jenny, has a massive cerebral hemorrhage,

677
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: and she dies and she's immediately cremated, and then her

678
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: grandson dies four days later. His official cause of death

679
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: is terminal bronco pneumonia. He is also quickly cremated. So

680
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that this is driving the investigators crazy,

681
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: all of whom although these are so these are different. Well,

682
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: we're back in La County, so we're back with Sergeant Andre.

683
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: So we've really only hit Nevada and La County I

684
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: believe so far.

685
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: Sure, But by the time Sergeant Andre becomes aware of anything,

686
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: these bodies are cremated. You know, Dale's receiving life insurance policies.

687
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: You know, because unless somebody is suspecting a crime up

688
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: front and reporting that back to the authorities, Sergeant Andre

689
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: is not. He's completely unaware of this. He's got a

690
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: whole case load elsewhere, right, And so Dale is now

691
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: picking off his own family members and financially be a

692
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 2: fitting from it, and law enforcement has no idea what's

693
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: going on.

694
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think you're right, because no one is making

695
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: a move on Dale. And he continues on. Now there

696
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: is a four year period that I thought was interesting.

697
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what he was doing in this four

698
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: year period, but he resumes using the name Jim Arden.

699
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: And he meets a woman who is named Mary brinker Post.

700
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: She's sixty, he is fifty three at this point. She

701
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: is a famous author. She's a best selling author. She

702
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Annie Jordan in nineteen forty eight.

703
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: I read a bit of it. It's pretty good, but

704
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: it was a best selling book. They marry after two months,

705
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: he burns through her money, which is about two hundred

706
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: thousand dollars today, and he racks up about fourteen thousand

707
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: dollars in debt then, which is about one hundred and

708
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: forty four thousand dollars today. She about a year and

709
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: a half after meeting him, files from bankruptcy. He leaves

710
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: her because of course, bankruptcy no money. He goes back

711
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: to Gladys, who he had killed her ex husband. I'm

712
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: sure she doesn't suspect that, but I mean Gladys, they

713
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: had divorced. All Races is twice divorced.

714
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 2: Dale. He's a con man. He's got the gift of gab.

715
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: Seems like he has the ability to socially interact with

716
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: people to keep them where they don't suspect him of

717
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: these crimes that he's committee.

718
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's unreal. So now we're going to be

719
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: back to Mary. After he leaves Mary and I have

720
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: to presume starts divorce proceedings. He's with Gladys. Two weeks

721
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 1: after that, Mary is in a minor car accident for real.

722
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: She's in Montclair. Her face is bruised and her nose

723
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: is injured and she gets like a two inch bandage.

724
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: She is shaken up, and she calls Dale and he

725
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: visits her on October thirty first, and then she ends

726
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: up in the hospital. Blood tests indicate a low blood

727
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: glueclose level and the presence of barbituates. They do an

728
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: EEG because this has been in a car accident, and

729
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: it shows severe depression of cortical activity with no localizing features.

730
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: She dies the next day. Dale says, you know, a

731
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: car accident, she had head injuries. But this time the

732
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: investigators who are in La County get an autopsy. They

733
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: act quickly. Her cause of death is listed as bronco

734
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: pneumonia secondary to hypoglycemia. But he is arrested. I don't

735
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: know if they see the pattern and they feel like,

736
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why he's arrested. I don't know how

737
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: that changes anything.

738
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure, because you know, at this point,

739
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: it's got to come from these autopsy results and a

740
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 2: pathologist rendering an openion that somebody had injected her or

741
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: forced her to be ingest the barbs and the insulin,

742
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: and of course they're looking at Dale.

743
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: So he is arrested. In nineteen sixty seven in his

744
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: la home. He's charged with three counts of first degree

745
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: murder for the deaths of Zella the first wife, his

746
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: nephew Bernie, and Mary the author. He pleads not guilty

747
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: to all counts, so he is called I have not

748
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: heard of this before. He is called a serial matrimonialist killer.

749
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: Have you heard that phrase?

750
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: No?

751
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we would say, like the low

752
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: term would be a bluebeard killer. But I don't know.

753
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: This is what they're calling him.

754
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I would like you know, he's the

755
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: male version of what is typically called the black widow. Yeah, right,

756
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 2: where females are scamming and killing men for financial gain.

757
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 2: He's doing this same thing, and of course there's many

758
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 2: examples of men doing tho to women.

759
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: Well, he waives his right to jury trial. He goes

760
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: with a judge and testimony starts in December of nineteen

761
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: sixty seven. So first I think they're establishing the fact

762
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: that Dale could have pulled off the insulin. Now, of

763
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: course they say he has been shooting people with insulin

764
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: to put him in a coma and then they die.

765
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 1: There is a head psychiatrist at a state hospital where

766
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: Dale worked in the early nineteen forties, and he details

767
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: this procedure that they had used at an insulin shock ward.

768
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: So I did not know anything about this at this time.

769
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: In the forties, insulin shock therapy was a common psychiatric

770
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: treatment for schizophrenia, So you would inject a patient with

771
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: large doses of insulin to induce daily comas for a

772
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: period of months, and so he was well trained to

773
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: give insulin injections. What do you think about that?

774
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I don't know anything about that

775
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: for the schizophrenia. But most certainly what it tells me

776
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: is Dale is extremely comfortable with, you know, not only

777
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: the injection of insulin, but what its response is going

778
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: to be. He has a skill set, he has an expertise,

779
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: and that is what he is relying upon in order

780
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: to commit his crimes. And I suspect that in some

781
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 2: of the cases he's not just injecting insulin, but he's

782
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: also combining it with the barbs. The barbs seem to

783
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: be a consistent thing, you know, throughout this entire series,

784
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: and so he probably recognizes that the combination of high

785
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: insulin levels plus this potent sedative, the barbs, which many

786
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: people have overdosed on and died. You know, it gives

787
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 2: him the confidence that his victim is going to ultimately

788
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: die from it.

789
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: Well, remember I told you he was married to a

790
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: nurse in the forties, so this was before Zella's death.

791
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 1: She testifies her name is Dorothea, and they got into

792
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 1: trouble together for you know, illegally possessing morphine. She testifies

793
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: that after she met Dale, he roped her into a

794
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: fraudulent scheme. I mean this scheme designed to obstruct criminal

795
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: proceedings against their mutual friend. Listen to this. In nineteen

796
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: forty seven, their friend, who was a guy named William

797
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: Edward Jones, was facing child molestation charges for raping a

798
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: thirteen year old girl. Dale goes to William and says,

799
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: let's feign a motoring accident and a head injury to

800
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: delay this litigation. And he tells William that we can

801
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: make this more convincing if you let me inject you

802
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: with insulin. Then he would bribe the girl's family to

803
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: drop the case. And he tells William it would cost

804
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: about ten thousand dollars. William says, this sounds great. I

805
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: mean ten thousand dollars in forty seven would have been

806
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: a massive amount of money. So Dorothea gets the insulin

807
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: from a hospital and gives it to him. In forty seven,

808
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: she remembers telling him that insulin would be the perfect

809
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: murder weapon. I don't know why Dorothea would have told

810
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: him that, but she did. The men staged a car crash,

811
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: William posed by a nearby tree, and Dale injected him

812
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: with insulin. Then Dale calls the police anonymously to report

813
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: the wreck. When the police get to the scene, they

814
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: find William discombobulated and hungry. They take him to a

815
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: nearby hospital, where doctors say that he had a you know.

816
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: They note that he had a headache and subnormal temperature.

817
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: Shortly after his arrival, he begins sweating. I mean the

818
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: whole thing. The muscles are twitching, is breathing, his pulse.

819
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: Everything is bad. They perform a spinal puncture around eleven am.

820
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 1: They find that his blood pressure and his sugar levels

821
00:48:54,760 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: were dangerously low. He was given fifty percent glucose. He

822
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: falls into a coma the next day and he dies.

823
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: Doctors listed the cause of death as undetermined. In the meantime,

824
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: Dale goes to the family of the girl who William

825
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: had raped. He offers him a three hundred dollars used

826
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: car on the condition that they leave town immediately. Now

827
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: what's probably missing from that story is, remember the ten

828
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. William hands him ten thousand dollars to you know,

829
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 1: create all of this so that the girl's testamenty goes away.

830
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: So William dies Dale gets the money, and then he

831
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: gives up three hundred dollars to the girl's family, who

832
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: I'm presuming must have been, you know, impoverished. And so

833
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: that solves that. I mean, that's a lot. And so

834
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: Dorothea lays that all out for the judge. You're taking

835
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: a drink. Is that bourbon?

836
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: No? Actually, this is just red wine. It's Kabernie just En.

837
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: As I always say, I would be curled up on

838
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: the floor if I drank alcohol at all during the afternoon.

839
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. No. Well this, you know, Dorothea's testimony just underscores

840
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: how far back in time Dale has been committing these crimes,

841
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, And it's stunning when you think about his

842
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: success over and over again and the amount of money,

843
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 2: because at times he's receiving large sums of money from

844
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: his victim or his victim's estate, and it kind of

845
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: comes back to, well, where is that money going? How

846
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: is Dale spending that money?

847
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: So Dale takes the stand. I don't think he does

848
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: a great job. He blames Dorothea no surprise, and says,

849
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: I divorced her. She's just trying to get back at me.

850
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: He also says, which to me makes sense. You know,

851
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: many of these people were alcoholics, and the ones who

852
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: weren't were in all of these car accidents. You can't

853
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: prove that I injected anybody with anything. But you have

854
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: some experts, doctors who take the stand and they say,

855
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: all of these people who at least he's being tried

856
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: for these people all exhibited symptoms consistent with hypoglossmia. And

857
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: Bernie the nephew and Mary the ex wife have slides

858
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: that contained their slices of their brains, and it showed

859
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: those slides showed uniform damage inconsistent with trauma, but consistent

860
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: with massive doses of long acting insulin. So that's part

861
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: of the trial, and I think, no surprise. In sixty eight,

862
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 1: the judge finds Dale guilty on all three counts of murder.

863
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: He is sentenced to death in the San Quentin State

864
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: Prison gas chamber in the early seventies. The Supreme Court

865
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: isn't sure. Vacillates back and forth on the legality of

866
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: the death penalty. It delayed his execution, but in seventy seven,

867
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: before his sentence is carried out, Dale dies of pneumonia

868
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: in Vaccaville State Prison at age sixty five. Another one

869
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: gets away with it. He's convicted in sixty eight, and

870
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: so he dies nine years later for the deaths of

871
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: I can't even keep up with how many people he

872
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: killed A lot of people.

873
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned Vacaville.

874
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: That was my rear neighbor for much of my life,

875
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: you know, or a neighbor if you will. That both

876
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: the California Medical Facility as well as you know, the

877
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: Solano State Penitentiary was right there in Vacaville, and at

878
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: one point in the early nineties, literally I could look

879
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: out my back window and I would see those two facilities.

880
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,959
Speaker 1: We've talked about somebody who was housed in Vacaville, because

881
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: I remember you saying that, Oh it was right there,

882
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: and I can't remember who it was.

883
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: But I don't remember who we talked about. But most

884
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: certainly like I think to this day, ed Kemper is

885
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: housed at CMF. Charles Manson was there for a long

886
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: period of time. Many of the most notorious offenders that

887
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 2: you can think of out of California would have passed

888
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: through California Medical Facility because they're being evaluated and then

889
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: classified as to where they could be housed within the

890
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: California prison system.

891
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: So not the traditional sense of a serial killer. But

892
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: this guy destroyed everyone around him.

893
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's just there are these types

894
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: of people, you know, Greed is controlling them and they're

895
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: willing to kill anybody, including their close loved ones, in

896
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 2: order to get that financial gain.

897
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: I will see you in two weeks because we are

898
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: off for winter break.

899
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: I have to wait two weeks to see you again, Kate, Yes, sir,

900
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: all right, well, I'll suck it up and I'll see

901
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: you then. How's that?

902
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: Okay? Bye, bye bye. This has been an exactly right

903
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 1: production for our sources and show notes go exactlyrightemedia dot

904
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: com slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amiosi.

905
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

906
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

907
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

908
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

909
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

910
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

911
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: Buried Bones.

912
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

913
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

914
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

915
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

916
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: cold Cases, is also available now