Speaker 1: What happens when you take a narcissist to therapy. On
Speaker 1: this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm diving back into our
Speaker 1: DMS to answer your questions about your therapy dilemmas. So
Speaker 1: many of you have narcissistic people in your life that
Speaker 1: you love and that you want so badly for those
Speaker 1: relationships to get better. I know you sometimes wonder could
Speaker 1: I make this better if I just went to therapy
Speaker 1: with them. Now we're taking on the good, the bad,
Speaker 1: and the ugly of going into the room and sitting
Speaker 1: on the couch with a narcissist. Get Ready, Therapy with
Speaker 1: narcissists isn't for the faint of heart. This podcast should
Speaker 1: not be used as a substitute for medical or mental
Speaker 1: health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling,
Speaker 1: and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to
Speaker 1: any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including
Speaker 1: matters discussed on this podcast. The views and opinions expressed
Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk Productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Our first
Speaker 1: question is from Roxanna. She writes, my narcissistic sister has
Speaker 1: been wreaking havoc on our lives for years? How do
Speaker 1: I tell her she needs therapy without her exploding on
Speaker 1: me and actually convince her to go? So Roxanna's question
Speaker 1: is a universal question for people who have narcissistic people
Speaker 1: in their lives, which is how can I get them
Speaker 1: to go to therapy? You know, there's a thing that
Speaker 1: people throw around, especially therapists who care about narcissism. It's
Speaker 1: that narcissism is the only kind of maladaptive personality style
Speaker 1: or mental health pattern where the people who have it
Speaker 1: push other people into therapy. And I really think that
Speaker 1: that captured sort of the paradox of narcissism. Everyone around
Speaker 1: them is going into therapy to cope with this. They
Speaker 1: aren't going into therapy, which means not only are we
Speaker 1: never going to see progress with them, but it also
Speaker 1: means therapists often don't know how to work with these clients. Right.
Speaker 1: The big anguish for so many people in these situations
Speaker 1: is could therapy maybe help a little? Could it maybe
Speaker 1: make them a little more accountable? And above all else,
Speaker 1: how do we even get them to consider going This
Speaker 1: is a dilemma, and so Roxanna kind of throws a
Speaker 1: double dilemma in here where she says, how do I
Speaker 1: tell her she needs therapy without her exploding on me?
Speaker 1: So to pick a lane, Roxanna, you can tell her
Speaker 1: she needs therapy, but the version of that with art
Speaker 1: or exploding not so likely. And then the cherry on
Speaker 1: top as it was, and convince her to gosation about
Speaker 1: asking someone narcissistic to go into therapy is more often
Speaker 1: than not going to be unsuccessful, and it could actually
Speaker 1: be quite upsetting for you because the odds are they're
Speaker 1: going to gaslight you. Oh really, really, who needs therapy here? Hmm?
Speaker 1: Maybe you should go in. Maybe you need to double
Speaker 1: up on the sessions you're already going to, or in fact,
Speaker 1: maybe your therapist is just a scammer, just taking your
Speaker 1: money because you seem as disturbed as you've always been.
Speaker 1: So by the time this conversation is done, you're thinking
Speaker 1: this wasn't worth it. I'm just not doing this. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna put myself in this kind of harm's way
Speaker 1: just to try to convince someone to do something that
Speaker 1: would be good for them. So here's a couple of ways.
Speaker 1: Let's break this down. Number one, does therapy work with
Speaker 1: narcissistic people ish? And it's a weak ish because I
Speaker 1: have worked with a lot of narcissistic clients over the earth,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, learned a ton. You know,
Speaker 1: the only way you're going to learn how to box
Speaker 1: is to go fifteen rounds in the ring. What I
Speaker 1: learned is that the kinds of changes that therapy can
Speaker 1: enact with a narcissistic client tend to be very small,
Speaker 1: and they don't tend to be at enough of a
Speaker 1: consistent or big enough level for the people around them
Speaker 1: to notice the change. So the tricky piece with that
Speaker 1: is that people think that, well, you're telling me they're changing.
Speaker 1: They're changing in a way I can see them. But
Speaker 1: I'm not having dinner with them. I'm not going on
Speaker 1: vacation with them. I'm not having to cajole them to
Speaker 1: empty the dishwasher. None of that's not my problem with them.
Speaker 1: I have them for an hour, and in my work
Speaker 1: with them, I've got to tell you, it's the hardest
Speaker 1: clinical work I've ever done. I've been verbally abused, I've
Speaker 1: heard some really terrible things that I can't unhear. I
Speaker 1: have heard about them doing terrible things to people, saying
Speaker 1: terrible things to people. A lot of therapists would say,
Speaker 1: I would have fired that client, right, And that's what
Speaker 1: often happens with narcissistic clients. Either they're fired by their
Speaker 1: therapist or just when the therapist puts the pressure on
Speaker 1: them to really do some emotional accountability work, they get
Speaker 1: up and leave. So either way, they're dropping out of therapy.
Speaker 1: And in fact, there's data out there that shows that
Speaker 1: narcissistic people are probably somewhere between sixty to seventy percent
Speaker 1: more likely to drop out of therapy, so it's really
Speaker 1: hard to retain them in. And I have read cases
Speaker 1: of unicorns, but the reason I've read them is because
Speaker 1: they were so unique they got published. For the rest
Speaker 1: of us who are working with these clients, we're talking
Speaker 1: about baby steps. I've had narcissistic clients I've worked with
Speaker 1: who said to me, so, you're telling me that the
Speaker 1: only way this whole relationship thing is going to work
Speaker 1: out without my wife screaming at me all the time
Speaker 1: is if I have this empathy for her and have
Speaker 1: to listen to her stuff and like, yeah, sometimes I
Speaker 1: see women on the side when I travel and you're
Speaker 1: telling me I have to give that up too, And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you what to do, but yeah, that's
Speaker 1: kind of like empathy good. And interestingly, I've had some
Speaker 1: clients hear that to let me sleep on that, come
Speaker 1: back the next week and say nah, and they filed
Speaker 1: for divorce and broke up with the lover. Actually I
Speaker 1: put that in my wind column because I thought he
Speaker 1: heard this enough to say, well, I don't want to
Speaker 1: hurt these people, but I also do not want to
Speaker 1: listen to them anymore. And I don't want to deal
Speaker 1: with the nonsense. And if you're telling me that dealing
Speaker 1: with their nonsense is how you do a relationship, right,
Speaker 1: I'm out when to me because now those relationships, which
Speaker 1: weren't healthy were ended. I can't tell you how many Christmases, Thanksgivings, Birthdays,
Speaker 1: late nights I've had encroached upon by emergency emergency. It's
Speaker 1: an emergency. I remember Christmas when the emergency emergency said
Speaker 1: to my kids, put those presents on ice, I'll be
Speaker 1: right back. You know what the emergency was, A girlfriend
Speaker 1: wouldn't wear the new shoes that someone bought for them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm out, no, no, no, no, and I'm seeing
Speaker 1: that in a tiny little sliver. Imagine what the people
Speaker 1: who are in relationships with them are going through. So
Speaker 1: the whole thing has meant to tell you that even
Speaker 1: if you're able to have this uncomfortable conversation about therapy,
Speaker 1: the kind of change that you may need for your
Speaker 1: relationship to move forward may not happen Number one. Number two,
Speaker 1: for therapy to make that kind of change could take
Speaker 1: years and years and years. Folks. We're talking tens, if
Speaker 1: not hundreds, of thousands of dollars worth of therapy. There
Speaker 1: are a no insurance company in the world that's going
Speaker 1: to pay for that much therapy. Okay. The other thing
Speaker 1: to keep in mind is that the mistake that a
Speaker 1: lot of folks make in narcissistic relationships is that they
Speaker 1: attempt to be the narcissistic person's therapist. It's part of
Speaker 1: the trauma bonding cycle that you want to be all
Speaker 1: things to people in toxic relationship. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: their friend, I'm going to be their sober coach. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be their therapist. I'm going to be the
Speaker 1: house cleaner. I'm going to be their sex partner. You
Speaker 1: can't do all of that as one person, and you
Speaker 1: certainly can't be their therapists. So that you're often listening
Speaker 1: and letting them offload so many of their problems on
Speaker 1: you that at some point if you sort of distance
Speaker 1: from that, that can actually help you. And if they
Speaker 1: keep talking about how much they're struggling with a specific problem,
Speaker 1: I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe that's happening.
Speaker 1: That might be your entry point. Say you know what,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you have a lot going on. They
Speaker 1: feel validated. It could really be helpful to talk to
Speaker 1: someone who's a professional. You're such an important person and
Speaker 1: you do such important things. It really seems like getting
Speaker 1: the help you need could be useful. Give them the validation,
Speaker 1: fluff them up a little bit, and then you might
Speaker 1: be able to say you need another important, educated person
Speaker 1: helping you. Is it a little manipulative? If it gets
Speaker 1: them in the door, it may be helpful. Even if
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person gets five, six, seven sessions, it can
Speaker 1: actually make a difference. But what you've got to do
Speaker 1: is make therapy palatable a little bit of a doctor
Speaker 1: Romedey moment here, Because I practice in Los Angeles. Having
Speaker 1: a therapist is a little bit like having a personal trainer,
Speaker 1: Like people talk about it in public here, like who's
Speaker 1: your shrink. It's not like a taboo topic that like
Speaker 1: it could be in other places, but in LA that's
Speaker 1: a thing that has actually been an asset for many
Speaker 1: of the narcissistic clients I have. They're like, whooh, I'm
Speaker 1: going to go see doctor narcissism. I bet I can
Speaker 1: break her. That's often been kind of their groove, and
Speaker 1: we've actually done some interesting work together because they didn't
Speaker 1: get under my skin. But it became a game. That's
Speaker 1: a very long way for saying, if you're going to
Speaker 1: suggest therapy to your sister, find that tiny little window
Speaker 1: of opportunity when she's talking about a specific problem. Tell
Speaker 1: her that her problem's really, really important and it really
Speaker 1: deserves the attention of somebody who's got training to do this,
Speaker 1: because she's an important person and needs that kind of support,
Speaker 1: and you might be able to play on her grandiosity,
Speaker 1: just a nudger in the door. In our next question here,
Speaker 1: Brianna asks why are so few therapists trained in recognizing
Speaker 1: narcissism and narcissistic g abuse. I've tried therapy with my
Speaker 1: narcissistic parents. It was horrible. Why isn't this more widely
Speaker 1: understood among therapists. Well, you know what, Brianna, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad you asked this question because it actually allows me
Speaker 1: to talk about my passion project, where I'm actually developing
Speaker 1: a thirty hour training program for therapists to work with
Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse, and am now lecturing actually all over the
Speaker 1: world for two therapists on how to learn about this.
Speaker 1: One thing I think everyone needs to understand is that
Speaker 1: we weren't taught this. Very rarely do graduate programs have
Speaker 1: an entire semester course on personality disorders, least of all,
Speaker 1: an entire course on narcissism and antagonistic personalities. They just
Speaker 1: don't exist. I've talked to ballrooms full of five hundred
Speaker 1: people and I'll say, raise your hand if you had
Speaker 1: a full semester course on personality disorders, five hands maybe,
Speaker 1: And they tend to be younger people speaking to a switch.
Speaker 1: And then I've talked to graduate students and said, yeah,
Speaker 1: we had a course on personality disorders. We learned about
Speaker 1: the biology personality disorder or something like that's important, but
Speaker 1: did you learn how to work with them clinically. No.
Speaker 1: This phenomenon of narcissistic abuse is very, very new, and
Speaker 1: there's a few of us like myself who've been working
Speaker 1: in this area for over a decade, and it's about
Speaker 1: that new, probably been around for about twenty twenty five years.
Speaker 1: My entire graduate career. Entire graduate career, not in my classrooms,
Speaker 1: my clinical training, my hospital training, the word narcissism didn't
Speaker 1: come up once, not once, And it wasn't until one
Speaker 1: series of meetings with a really gifted supervisor who taught
Speaker 1: me a little bit about these dynamics. Then the word
Speaker 1: did not come up again in my professional career until
Speaker 1: I was a professor at a university and then started
Speaker 1: my own program of research. So it is simply not
Speaker 1: talked about. And then what that means then is there's
Speaker 1: this big knowledge gap that many many clinicians out there
Speaker 1: are really trying to get the training in. So clinicians
Speaker 1: listening stay tuned that training program's coming out soon. But
Speaker 1: in the interim, couple of thoughts, try to find a
Speaker 1: therapist who's trauma informed at a minimum, trauma informed therapists
Speaker 1: will account for your history of interpersonal trauma and interpersonal
Speaker 1: issues in your relationships. That can make a big difference.
Speaker 1: Second is if you find a therapist who's well versed
Speaker 1: in domestic abuse, domestic violence, or intimate partner violence, those
Speaker 1: therapists will at least have some of the language of
Speaker 1: these kinds of manipulative relationships that have gas lighting and
Speaker 1: all of these other controlling dynamics present. But other than
Speaker 1: those kinds of things, if you can just find a
Speaker 1: therapist who can be present with you in the room,
Speaker 1: not doubt you, not put an agenda on you, you'll
Speaker 1: be fine. There's a lot of fantastic therapists out there,
Speaker 1: just empathic, really well trained people who will get it.
Speaker 1: And as with anything, whether it's a dentist, medical doctor,
Speaker 1: or therapist, if you don't feel comfortable, it's okay to
Speaker 1: find someone else. Not every therapist is a good fit
Speaker 1: for everyone. Take your time and find someone you like.
Speaker 1: The therapist that you don't like someone else loves, so
Speaker 1: everyone finds their place, but give yourself time and permission
Speaker 1: to do that. Next, Gina writes, my boyfriend and I
Speaker 1: have been in therapy together for three years, we've been
Speaker 1: focusing on his narcissism, but it seems like he's made
Speaker 1: no progress. I'm not expecting an overnight cure, but what
Speaker 1: are some realistic goals to have in couples therapy with
Speaker 1: a narcissist. Gina's question brings up two really interesting things
Speaker 1: to me. One thing that can happen, and I'm so
Speaker 1: glad Gina put the question like this, is that what
Speaker 1: we can see is that when a person goes into
Speaker 1: couple's therapy with a narcissist, something that can happen is
Speaker 1: that the couple's therapist will actually put a lot of
Speaker 1: their focus on the narcissistic person because they're the one
Speaker 1: engaging in more bad behaviors. It's an interesting play by
Speaker 1: the therapist which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Where it
Speaker 1: can work is that it's almost as though Gina's narcissistic
Speaker 1: boyfriend may not go to therapy on his own, but
Speaker 1: somehow he's showing up week after week with her. But
Speaker 1: she's saying though it doesn't feel like he's making much progress,
Speaker 1: and the struggle there is after three years, if no
Speaker 1: progress is being made, then this really probably is what
Speaker 1: we see with most narcissistic clients there is not likely
Speaker 1: to be significant movement in therapy. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: she's not expecting an overnight cure, but three years is
Speaker 1: a long time. So the bigger question, though Gina's asking,
Speaker 1: is what are the realistic goals to have. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you one thing that's not a realistic goal is that
Speaker 1: Gina's boyfriend is going to change significantly. That's just not
Speaker 1: on the table. But a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 1: of people go into couples or even family therapy with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person, and I think the key to all
Speaker 1: therapy is that a person goes in there with realistic goals.
Speaker 1: So what needs to happen is that when you go
Speaker 1: into therapy, have very behavioral goals, because those are more
Speaker 1: observable and they're more measurable. One of the biggest challenges
Speaker 1: in a narcissistic relationship is that we always make assumptions
Speaker 1: about the intention of the narcissist. Are you trying to
Speaker 1: hurt me? Actually, no, they're not. Believe it or not. No,
Speaker 1: they're not. They're just not noticing you. They're not trying
Speaker 1: to do anything. You know, you just want me to
Speaker 1: be sad wrong again. They're not noticing you enough to
Speaker 1: care about that. So, because a lot of folks in
Speaker 1: couple's therapy with a narcissistic partner focus on the narcissistic
Speaker 1: person's intentions, you're going nowhere fast because we cannot change
Speaker 1: another person's intentions. We can't. The best we've got is
Speaker 1: a person's behavior, how a person shows up, whatever that
Speaker 1: looks like. And then you better figure out what's most
Speaker 1: important for you. Is it more participation in some household chores.
Speaker 1: Is it how they talk with your children, you know?
Speaker 1: Is it the use of certain forms of language, saying
Speaker 1: that I cannot have you use certain kinds of obscene
Speaker 1: language around the children. It has to be so clear.
Speaker 1: So the couple's therapy then becomes a place of accountability,
Speaker 1: so that there can be some of that backing and forthing,
Speaker 1: so that behavioral piece becomes really important. Another big goal
Speaker 1: that people want in couple's therapy is accountability, so therapy
Speaker 1: can be a place where the narcissistic person actually learns
Speaker 1: how to give an apology. Narcissistic people don't know how
Speaker 1: to apologize. The most common way that narcissistic people apologize
Speaker 1: they'll say, I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not
Speaker 1: an apology. That is an embarrassment, a little bit of
Speaker 1: a gas light, and it's definitely a manipulation, but it's
Speaker 1: not an apology. I'm sorry you feel that way. That's
Speaker 1: how I feel, So you're sorry for my m gaslight.
Speaker 1: An apology is i'm sorry. A real apology takes responsibility,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I did something that hurts you, empathy, responsibility
Speaker 1: That practicing of how to issue an apology can actually
Speaker 1: be something you can work on in therapy because it
Speaker 1: is about how language is used. It's about the construction
Speaker 1: and the architecture of an apology. The other thing you
Speaker 1: want to hold out for as a goal in therapy
Speaker 1: is techniques that you can take out of the therapy
Speaker 1: and use, whether it's permission to step out of a
Speaker 1: difficult situation, some tool that the therapist gives you to
Speaker 1: kind of put the brakes on what's happening, things that
Speaker 1: you can use between sessions, and then using the couple's
Speaker 1: therapy as a place to feel seen, heard, and recognize.
Speaker 1: The one thing you never want is to walk out
Speaker 1: of couple's therapy feeling more confused than when you walked
Speaker 1: in the door. My conversation will continue after this break.
Speaker 1: So in this next questions sort of a general question
Speaker 1: that asks how do the different types of narcissism show
Speaker 1: up in couple's therapy? Such a good question. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to put on my teachy cap for a moment,
Speaker 1: because I think this is a real opportunity for us
Speaker 1: to just have a review of the general types of narcissism,
Speaker 1: but then connect to how that could show up in
Speaker 1: the therapy room. All right, so let's start at the top.
Speaker 1: The most common, the classic, the narcissistic type. We're all
Speaker 1: most familiar with, the grandiose narcissist, right, arrogant, pretentious, larger
Speaker 1: than life, extroverted, Aren't I great? Tell me more? Tell
Speaker 1: me how great I am? Let me pick up the check.
Speaker 1: Yeah ya, yay, okay, I was flirting with her, that
Speaker 1: kind of narcissist, right, grandiose narcissists when they show up
Speaker 1: in therapy, let me tell you one thing they're almost
Speaker 1: always going to do, and that's to really show up
Speaker 1: with tons of charisma and try to charm the hell
Speaker 1: out of the therapist. So, if you don't have a
Speaker 1: seasoned therapist, in the room. It can be a little
Speaker 1: risky because a grandiose narcissist may come in the room
Speaker 1: and say, WHOA, you went to UCLA. I'm a bruin Gosh,
Speaker 1: you must be so smart. I was told that's a
Speaker 1: really hard graduate program to get into. Wow, I'm so
Speaker 1: lucky we're in here. So you gotta be real resistant
Speaker 1: to not fall for that. Meanwhile, especially if the partner
Speaker 1: sitting next to the grandiose narcissist looks shredded, tired, sad,
Speaker 1: a lot of people make the mistake of like, this
Speaker 1: person's so big and bright and shiny, kind of feel
Speaker 1: bad that they're with this partner who's so glum. Be
Speaker 1: careful with that. That glumness is probably years and years
Speaker 1: and years of putting up with narcissistic abuse. The grandiose
Speaker 1: narcissists may look great in therapy until the therapist calls
Speaker 1: them out and may say, you know what, you keep
Speaker 1: talking over her, you keep interrupting him. He just shared
Speaker 1: his feelings, and you're denying what do you get to
Speaker 1: be judge and jury and his emotions. When the therapist
Speaker 1: starts doing that, you can almost very quickly see a
Speaker 1: switch in the grandiose narcissist. They can become quite angry, petulant,
Speaker 1: Sullen and I can all but guarantee you the next
Speaker 1: session they either won't show up, or won't want to
Speaker 1: show up, or they may not send the payment in time.
Speaker 1: So let's go then, because this becomes a natural shift
Speaker 1: over to what a lot of folks call the covert narcissist.
Speaker 1: The kind of the official term is the vulnerable narcissist
Speaker 1: or this covert vulnerable narcissist. How do they show up
Speaker 1: in therapy? Well, the covert vulnerable narcissist is chronically irritable,
Speaker 1: Sullen has lots of grievances, angry feels that people are
Speaker 1: to get them, really thin skinned, can look sad, can
Speaker 1: also look really socially anxious. So one thing that happens
Speaker 1: from the jump is the therapist actually may wonder is
Speaker 1: it this person's depression anxiety? Is there something else happening
Speaker 1: with this person? And there tends to be almost more
Speaker 1: of a clinical focus on the covert or vulnerable narcissist.
Speaker 1: That covert narcissist. Vulnerable narcissist will also look like they're
Speaker 1: in such a bad state that they may seem like
Speaker 1: they're even more unhappy than you. Covert vulnerable narcissists will
Speaker 1: often give one word answers. They'll sort of resent being
Speaker 1: asked to engage in this kind of level of emotional conversation,
Speaker 1: will feel chronically victimized. Nothing I do is enough, nothing
Speaker 1: I've ever done is enough. Everyone is out to get me.
Speaker 1: No one has ever told me I've done right by them.
Speaker 1: I give and I given. It's never enough. Victim, victim, victim.
Speaker 1: And you're trying to go into a deeper communicative space,
Speaker 1: and you've exhausted yourself doing that. You need a sharp, sharp,
Speaker 1: sharp therapist to pick up on those covert vulnerable kinds
Speaker 1: of patterns. Because it's a form of narcissism that's not
Speaker 1: often talked about. It often gets missed, and so there's
Speaker 1: a real risk that the therapists will think, Oh, there's
Speaker 1: an anxious, depressed partner with another partner who's also unhappy
Speaker 1: in the relationship, and that's what's being worked on, rather
Speaker 1: than those chronically sullen, resentful patterns. Now, when we get
Speaker 1: to the more severe issues, we get to malignant narcissism.
Speaker 1: Malignant narcissism is where we see patterns like coercive control,
Speaker 1: financial control, exploitation, isolation, using fear to menace someone you know,
Speaker 1: you better watch out, you better make sure you don't
Speaker 1: talk badly about me, because you know what I know
Speaker 1: some I know cops like they're not going to believe you,
Speaker 1: like that kind of thing, which can feel really unsettling.
Speaker 1: It is very unusual, very unusual for a malignant narcissists
Speaker 1: to show up in therapy with their partner. It may
Speaker 1: happen if, for example, the malignant narcissist is sort of
Speaker 1: being compelled to because by the courts they're being compelled
Speaker 1: to as part of some other process. Maybe the church
Speaker 1: is compelling to, but some other forces saying you've got
Speaker 1: to go into couple's therapy. But in general they're not
Speaker 1: going to show up, and it can actually be unsettling
Speaker 1: for a therapist to work with a couple where there's
Speaker 1: a malignant narcissistic client. Domestic violence like physical violence may
Speaker 1: also be more likely, so there's dangerousness issues, and it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be unusual for the malignant narcissists to even have
Speaker 1: sort of a thinly veiled sense of threat that they're
Speaker 1: placing on the therapist as well. So when a therapist
Speaker 1: is scared, we simply can't do our work. We cannot
Speaker 1: work with clients we're afraid of. So in many ways
Speaker 1: you almost need more of sort of a particular kind
Speaker 1: of seasoned therapist that isn't as sort of flustered by
Speaker 1: clients like this. The odds of a good outcome in
Speaker 1: this kind of theiry be are pretty close to zero.
Speaker 1: This is not a client that's going to engage the
Speaker 1: focus in that kind of therapy. Then is mostly the
Speaker 1: safety for the non narcissistic partner. But then there's all
Speaker 1: those other forms of narcissism. We don't talk about that much.
Speaker 1: So when we get into communal narcissism, communal narcissists seem
Speaker 1: like do gooders to the world, rescuers save yours. They
Speaker 1: try to save the world everything from animals to elephants,
Speaker 1: to neighbors to the community to the Little League team.
Speaker 1: They go to other corners of the world and look,
Speaker 1: I'm saving the world. And make no mistake, they're documenting
Speaker 1: all of it on Instagram too. They aren't going to
Speaker 1: do this stuff quietly. The tricky bit with these communal
Speaker 1: narcissists is at the face of it, they might even
Speaker 1: seem like a pillar of the community, but behind closed
Speaker 1: doors as ragefull, cruel, and manipulative as any narcissistic person. Initially,
Speaker 1: when they show up in therapy, it could very well
Speaker 1: be that their sort of communal zaza zoo may win
Speaker 1: the therapist over. It's like, whoa, what a humanitarian you're
Speaker 1: doing so much, which communal narcissists may also be in
Speaker 1: helping professions therapists, teachers, doctors, pastors, those kinds of fields,
Speaker 1: So there's almost a built in kind of well, you
Speaker 1: must be cool, you're in a gentle job. I've done
Speaker 1: this long enough to know there ain't no such thing
Speaker 1: as a gentle job. That any kind of person, with
Speaker 1: any kind of personality could occupy any kind of job.
Speaker 1: So just keeping that in mind that there's at risk
Speaker 1: that the communal narcissistic person, it's going to be harder
Speaker 1: for the therapists to see that pattern because they may
Speaker 1: be hearing about how much this person wants to save
Speaker 1: the world. There's also a risk with communal narcissists, so
Speaker 1: some of sort of the New Age positivity vibe where
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, just you know, sometimes my energy needs
Speaker 1: to be alone and just like I got to be
Speaker 1: energizing and feeling the universe, and this other person's trying
Speaker 1: to raise kids and keep a household runn while this
Speaker 1: other person's energizing, and so that kind of thing that
Speaker 1: a therapist needs to pick up and recognize that some
Speaker 1: of those sort of kind of woo woo patterns don't
Speaker 1: work in a relationship. So a sharp eyed therapist might say,
Speaker 1: while you're energizing, are you aware that she was actually
Speaker 1: home with three sick children. You need someone who's willing
Speaker 1: to do that kind of calling out. But if a
Speaker 1: therapist doesn't know what communal narcissism is, it may take
Speaker 1: them a minute. Then we get to the self righteous narcissists.
Speaker 1: Oh my, oh my. Now, self righteous narcissism is interesting
Speaker 1: because it's so rigid. There's an old fashioned word for
Speaker 1: it called anancastick. That's just sort of fear vocabulary word
Speaker 1: for the day. Nobody uses that word anymore. But it's
Speaker 1: really this almost It has this obsessive flair, rigid, hyper moralistic, judgmental,
Speaker 1: really weird about money, even when they've got a ton
Speaker 1: of it, even if someone might need it. Maybe if
Speaker 1: they're in a sort of a bind and they're just
Speaker 1: a medical situation. They'll hit back with well, I've always
Speaker 1: been very careful with my money, and you you know,
Speaker 1: I know you talk about oh I was sick, but
Speaker 1: I was careful. You weren't, So I don't know if
Speaker 1: I feel comfortable, and I am sure you could figure
Speaker 1: out a way to apply for that special kind of insurance.
Speaker 1: And you're thinking like, oh my gosh, it's just like
Speaker 1: a thousand bucks and someone's health would be better, and
Speaker 1: they're like, no, or it would be there's a dinner
Speaker 1: party and you get stuck at work because you have
Speaker 1: a job where there's an emergency and you show up
Speaker 1: at six forty five and they'll say, yeah, we already ate,
Speaker 1: but I made you a plate if you want to
Speaker 1: take it home, like what is happening? They can be
Speaker 1: very religiously abusive, saying well, a lot of the problems
Speaker 1: you're in is because you really were not devout enough,
Speaker 1: And it can feel so harsh, so invalidating. If you
Speaker 1: manage to get a self righteous, narcissistic person into therapy,
Speaker 1: and you might, you might. What you're going to see
Speaker 1: is the therapist might see this sort of really rigid order.
Speaker 1: I think it would be pretty manifest. We often view
Speaker 1: really organized, focused, workaholic people. Self righteous people are often workaholics.
Speaker 1: They're often viewed very virtuously. They've been so responsible, they
Speaker 1: work so hard, they do what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1: Instead of this sort of sense of wow, this person
Speaker 1: is showing no empathy. So in the midst of all
Speaker 1: their rigid order and workoholism and moral righteousness, they're very invalidating.
Speaker 1: It's such a unique pattern that, again it often doesn't
Speaker 1: get picked up, but if it does, when the therapist
Speaker 1: pushes on that self righteous narcissist, they're very likely to
Speaker 1: drop off. And the last group I'm going to talk
Speaker 1: about the superficial narcissists. I call these folks narcissist light.
Speaker 1: These are the folks who are your Instagram narcissists. They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: make sure the light's good. We got to make sure
Speaker 1: we get a picture. I'm here, like what are you doing?
Speaker 1: You are a Disneyland and you're forty eight years old,
Speaker 1: Like really and so, but gotta get the light right,
Speaker 1: make sure my ears look good and like Meanwhile, there's
Speaker 1: children and they want to go on the rides, and
Speaker 1: so it's a very almost emotionally stunted childlike, look at me,
Speaker 1: I want fun, fun times. Childlike That's the only way
Speaker 1: I can describe it. It's actually kind of fun to
Speaker 1: have a few superficial, narcissistic friends, kind of fun to
Speaker 1: have at a party. Certainly, they're fun to go to
Speaker 1: Disneyland with because you now have a lot of pictures
Speaker 1: by the end of the day. But they are not
Speaker 1: made for long term relationships, especially when there are responsibilities
Speaker 1: like financial responsibilities, children, caregiving, any of that. In those
Speaker 1: kinds of relationships, that's the one group where you may
Speaker 1: may may have a little bit of a fighting chance,
Speaker 1: where with a good therapist they may sort of say, okay, sweetie,
Speaker 1: the ears, the whole thing, this isn't working like you're
Speaker 1: gonna have. It's time. It's time to grow up, you know,
Speaker 1: cross the bridge away from sleeping Beauty's castle and come
Speaker 1: back into the light. Because it's exhausting for people who say, gosh,
Speaker 1: we had so much fun when we were young. Of
Speaker 1: course you did, you know they were so good at
Speaker 1: being youthful. It often is sometimes about cleaning up the
Speaker 1: emotional hygiene, the superficial narcissists aren't mean people. They don't
Speaker 1: have that same kind of cruel, manipulative side. They're just
Speaker 1: so selfish and childlike and childish that they're still sort
Speaker 1: of conducting themselves like they're twenty five years old. And
Speaker 1: while that might be absolutely adorable, and if they don't
Speaker 1: get into a relationship, it actually work out great. But
Speaker 1: if you are in a relationship with them or have
Speaker 1: to rely on them, it can feel really impossible. But
Speaker 1: I actually think that group might have a little bit
Speaker 1: of a fighting chance in therapy. So as you can see,
Speaker 1: it's complex. Not all couples therapy with narcissistic folks is
Speaker 1: going to be the same because it's really going to
Speaker 1: depend not only on the type but the severity of
Speaker 1: the person going in. If the therapist has a good
Speaker 1: pair of eyes on them, they may pick up the patterns.
Speaker 1: But I have to tell you just a doctor Romney
Speaker 1: moment here. There's many times I've worked with a couple
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, great, clear on your goals and
Speaker 1: this and that. But then there's that moment you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with a couple where there's a narcissist and
Speaker 1: you literally I would feel sick in my stuff because
Speaker 1: then I'd know there's not much forward motion, and there's
Speaker 1: usually that moment and it's almost silent, where at least
Speaker 1: one person in the couple will say, I think it's
Speaker 1: probably timed and therapy, isn't it, And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: time's up. So it's tough. But as you can see,
Speaker 1: it's very complicated, and I hope that makes clear to
Speaker 1: you why it is actually quite difficult for therapists who
Speaker 1: do especially to do couple's work, how complicated the narcissism
Speaker 1: stuff is, which is why it's important. Not every therapist
Speaker 1: is good with every type of narcissist, but if you look,
Speaker 1: you'll find that therapist who may actually work really well
Speaker 1: with your kind of narcissistic couple match. In my next question,
Speaker 1: Charles writes, how do I prepare for a therapy session
Speaker 1: with my narcissistic wife? How do I make sure I
Speaker 1: get my point across without her taking the lead in
Speaker 1: the conversation and ending up totally off topic. Fantastic question, Charles,
Speaker 1: and I think actually what Charles is asking would apply
Speaker 1: to any kind of thing therapy you would go into,
Speaker 1: not just couples, but family therapy, anything with someone narcissistic. Heck,
Speaker 1: even your own therapy. But in couples therapy it's tricky.
Speaker 1: A lot of people will say one of the hardest
Speaker 1: things about their narcissistic relationship is once an argument starts,
Speaker 1: the narcissistic person always overpowers and overwhelms them. Narcissistic people
Speaker 1: are much better at arguing than ordinary people because they
Speaker 1: don't have that much empathy. They really can kind of
Speaker 1: go in for the jugular. I mean nothing against lawyers,
Speaker 1: but they argue like lawyers. And the problem with lawyers
Speaker 1: is lawyers are great in court, but that sort of
Speaker 1: like dispassionate, like emotionless argument doesn't work in a human relationship,
Speaker 1: and narcissistic people really have that capacity, which can hurt
Speaker 1: because you feel hurt, and yet they're trying to argue
Speaker 1: logic because their logic can often feel right on point,
Speaker 1: your emotions, which have now been gaslighted, can feel almost
Speaker 1: impossible to state. So one of the best things you
Speaker 1: can do is take some notes ahead of time and
Speaker 1: bring those notes in. In fact, I have coached many
Speaker 1: clients on how to prepare for going into couple's therapy
Speaker 1: with a narcissistic partner. It's a big moment. They're finally
Speaker 1: getting their partner into therapy. But they're like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to screw up this opportunity, so we make notes.
Speaker 1: And I have to tell you when I used to
Speaker 1: work with couples. If somebody comes in and reads something
Speaker 1: they've prepared, that's a bit of a sign to me,
Speaker 1: like this person felt the need to prepare this so carefully.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they're chronically overwhelmed by the partner and
Speaker 1: can't get their words out. There's different kinds of tricks.
Speaker 1: Couple therapists use one as the sort of the five
Speaker 1: minute game they play. There's a timer set. One person
Speaker 1: gets to talk uninterrupted for five minutes. Timer goes off,
Speaker 1: next person gets to go for five minutes. Can't be interrupted.
Speaker 1: As you can imagine, the narcissistic people do a lot
Speaker 1: of face talking, so that can happen. It can be
Speaker 1: really gaslighting and sort of destabilizing for the person who
Speaker 1: is trying to make their point. It's the therapist's job
Speaker 1: in those situations to rain in that person and say no, no, no.
Speaker 1: If you have to look out that wendo, you look
Speaker 1: at that window, but keep your faces to yourself. If
Speaker 1: someone's being interrupted, the couple's therapists will weigh in and
Speaker 1: stop it. They'll make sure that people get to make
Speaker 1: their points fully. That's what's supposed to happen. But because
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationships are so confusing and so overwhelming, it is
Speaker 1: crucial that you make notes ahead of time. In an
Speaker 1: ideal world, you're an individual therapy and you work with
Speaker 1: your individual therapists on it, and you make very clear notes,
Speaker 1: what are my goals, what are the things I want
Speaker 1: to bring in, what are the scenarios and situations I
Speaker 1: want to bring in? Having that will help you really
Speaker 1: keep yourself very very organized. Now, if you find that
Speaker 1: it's constantly going off topic and the therapist isn't raining
Speaker 1: it back in, maybe this therapist may not be a
Speaker 1: good fit for you, so you won't want to give
Speaker 1: that a chance. And then if you feel like it
Speaker 1: keeps going away no matter how organized I am, that's
Speaker 1: definitely something that you want to keep in mind. A
Speaker 1: little bit of a warning before you go into couple's therapy,
Speaker 1: just a reminder, I highly highly recommend that you do
Speaker 1: not use the word narcissist, psychopaths, gaslight sociopath. Don't use
Speaker 1: those words. Stick to words that identify behavioral patterns. I
Speaker 1: do not feel seen or heard in this relationship. When
Speaker 1: I talk to this person, they're not listening, and I
Speaker 1: can tell by the nature of their answers. We do
Speaker 1: not spend time alone together. Always has to involve a
Speaker 1: large group, and when I do try to suggest it,
Speaker 1: I am mocked and laughed at. Those are patterns and
Speaker 1: that's what a therapist can work with. There are some
Speaker 1: therapists out there that actually kind of get a little
Speaker 1: prickly if you use words like narcissist or gaslight or psychopath.
Speaker 1: They don't even want to hear the words, and it
Speaker 1: can start the therapy off on bumpy ground. But if
Speaker 1: you use patterned language, then that is something that can
Speaker 1: be talked about without you being sort of labeled the
Speaker 1: problem child in the therapy. That's just sort of a
Speaker 1: hack you want to remember, because a lot of folks
Speaker 1: will come in and say, oh, my gosh, she's so narcissistic,
Speaker 1: and that, sadly for therapists who may not fully understand,
Speaker 1: this might make you seem like the one who's antagonistic.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's fair, but I think it's a
Speaker 1: way to get in there. The best moment. The best
Speaker 1: moment is if you go in there, you've made your
Speaker 1: patterns clear, the therapist is clearly seeing what's going on.
Speaker 1: Somehow you come to find out that the therapist is
Speaker 1: onto it. That's an incredibly, incredibly validating moment. And once
Speaker 1: you sense that the therapist is getting it and is
Speaker 1: starting to sort of call out the narcissistic person, a
Speaker 1: lot of people will say that that was an incredibly
Speaker 1: curative moment for them. So in my next question, Bianca says,
Speaker 1: my husband is very charismatic. He makes everyone feel like
Speaker 1: the most important person in the room, and that's how
Speaker 1: I fell for him. This seems to extend to our
Speaker 1: couples therapist as well. It almost seems like he is
Speaker 1: love bombing the therapist, and the therapist seems to be
Speaker 1: eating it up. I can see from the therapist's perspective,
Speaker 1: my husband just seems like the greatest guy in the world,
Speaker 1: while I am a stressed out and complaining miss. What
Speaker 1: I thought would be our last chance to make the
Speaker 1: marriage work now feels like a hopeless dynamic Have you
Speaker 1: seen this before? Have I seen this before? First of all,
Speaker 1: I might be the only person in the world who
Speaker 1: thinks charismatic is a bad word. Like people say I
Speaker 1: know someone in their charismatic I'm like, no, no, I can't
Speaker 1: meet them. It's like the ogre word to me, So
Speaker 1: charismatic is tricky. I love what Bianca said here. It's
Speaker 1: so good, says that he's love bombing the therapist kind
Speaker 1: of sort of yeah, when come in and admire again
Speaker 1: they're credentials and how smart they are, and you know
Speaker 1: so much and we're so lucky to see you, and
Speaker 1: I know how popular you are as a therapist. However
Speaker 1: it is they're love bombing them. Therapists are human beings too. Again,
Speaker 1: this is why I keep using the word seasoned. There's
Speaker 1: no winning me over anymore. Like I think I've just
Speaker 1: been around the block way too many times and have
Speaker 1: too many miles on my tires that if someone tries
Speaker 1: to caaris their way into my office, I'm like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but that's again. Back at the beginning of my career,
Speaker 1: someone told me I was smart. I think I would
Speaker 1: have fallen for it. But the picture Bianca is painting
Speaker 1: here of one partner looking stressed out and complaining and
Speaker 1: the other one looking really well put together. This is
Speaker 1: why we need more training for therapists so they know
Speaker 1: what they're seeing, because it is so easy to say, like,
Speaker 1: why is this great charming person with this person who
Speaker 1: just seems like sort of hollowed out? It's unkind It's
Speaker 1: almost like, how is this really psychologically attractive person with
Speaker 1: this sort of psychologically not so attractive person. And it's
Speaker 1: not that at all. It is that if you understand
Speaker 1: the dynamics that when we see charismatic people, a tiny
Speaker 1: little alarm should be going off in our head, and
Speaker 1: if we see a charismatic person next to a person
Speaker 1: that really looks super stressed out, that alarm better get louder.
Speaker 1: So have I seen this before? Absolutely? And I think
Speaker 1: I want people to know that this dynamic isn't unusual. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: anybody can put on a show, right, they can come
Speaker 1: in and sort of be performative. In therapy, the therapist's
Speaker 1: job is to get past all that performative stuff into
Speaker 1: what's really going on. And so the challenge though, is
Speaker 1: that what Bianca saying is that my therapist is falling
Speaker 1: for it. And the other thing that concerns me about
Speaker 1: what Bianca says is, I thought therapy would be our
Speaker 1: last chance to make this marriage work. That's too much
Speaker 1: pressure for therapy that at that point, if this feels
Speaker 1: like therapy is life support, the odds of it pulling
Speaker 1: it out. I've never seen a wrecked, destroyed relationship be
Speaker 1: pulled back from the rocks. So what I've seen is
Speaker 1: boats that are going off a little off course that
Speaker 1: therapy gets them back on course. But once that boat
Speaker 1: has crashed onto the rocks because they turned into the
Speaker 1: wrong harbor, that's it. It's a salvage job at that point,
Speaker 1: and you're really trying to help like these two people
Speaker 1: maybe sort of dismantle this relationship. So Bianca got into
Speaker 1: this at a point where the relationship feels like it
Speaker 1: was already pushed to a limit, and the love bombing
Speaker 1: dynamic may have also weakened what was happening in that
Speaker 1: therapy and then now it feels sort of hopeless. And
Speaker 1: it could very well be that this dynamic could mean
Speaker 1: that a different therapist could actually work better, and maybe
Speaker 1: getting a referral like that to someone new if they're
Speaker 1: seeing a therapist of a particular gender or age or
Speaker 1: race or anything. It could mean say, let's switch this up,
Speaker 1: maybe that dynamic will change it, like find someone who
Speaker 1: isn't going to get played. Unfortunately, in reviews of therapists,
Speaker 1: that's not one of the things how they'll have, like depression, anxiety,
Speaker 1: substance use won't be played. That's not one of the bullets.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, there are some therapists who can really see
Speaker 1: it and get it, and there's some who actually don't.
Speaker 1: And in this particular case, I actually do worry for
Speaker 1: Bianca because this particular dynamic that's happening therapy in her
Speaker 1: specific case may leave her feeling kind of gaslighted. In
Speaker 1: a case like this, one thing that would be really
Speaker 1: important is that Bianca be in her own therapy, because
Speaker 1: her own therapist might be able to give her the
Speaker 1: guidance she needs to make decisions not only about her relationship,
Speaker 1: but how also to make some decisions about whether to
Speaker 1: proceed in this particular couple's therapy, seek someone else out,
Speaker 1: or other kinds of strategies for how she can emotionally
Speaker 1: approach this. We will be right back with this conversation.
Speaker 1: So one thing people might wonder like, well, if I'm
Speaker 1: morning praying for a couple's therapists, do I need to
Speaker 1: be in my own therapy always, always being respectful and
Speaker 1: aware of privilege and how expensive therapy can be and
Speaker 1: insurance doesn't cover. And I'm very aware of that as
Speaker 1: I give this answer. In an ideal world, if people
Speaker 1: are in couples therapy, they should be in individual therapy.
Speaker 1: Couple's therapy is not a substitute for individual therapy. What's
Speaker 1: happening in there, it's a very very different process. You're
Speaker 1: a couple, therapist wants you to be healthy, But that
Speaker 1: process of individuation and of healing and of building autonomy,
Speaker 1: that's not what's happening in the couple's therapy room. That's
Speaker 1: what's happening in the individual therapy room. The individual therapy
Speaker 1: room is your safe space to say whatever you want
Speaker 1: things you absolutely cannot share appropriately in a couple's therapy room.
Speaker 1: So in an ideal world you've got both. But always
Speaker 1: keeping in mind, though I recognize that the financial burdens
Speaker 1: of that much therapy happening really means that this is
Speaker 1: a strategy that's available to only a very privileged view.
Speaker 1: Something that people do often wonder is like, if I
Speaker 1: really like my couples therapists, can I also see them
Speaker 1: on the side as an individual therapist? NUNU new your
Speaker 1: couple's therapist is your couple therapists. Now you may wonder, well,
Speaker 1: what if my partner drops out of couple therapies. I
Speaker 1: don't want any part of this, I'm done. Can I
Speaker 1: see that person as an individual therapist? Yes, you can,
Speaker 1: and many people will sort of go into that place.
Speaker 1: Different couple therapists might have different philosophies. Some couples therapists
Speaker 1: work only with couples. By the way, there's some people
Speaker 1: out there who won't see you unless you're a two.
Speaker 1: It's a philosophical thing. I mean, it's not how i'd operate,
Speaker 1: but that's how they believe. So if you're not a two,
Speaker 1: no therapy for you. But with many therapists, if you're
Speaker 1: in as a couple, the relationship ends, or your partner says,
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not doing therapy. I don't like this
Speaker 1: therapist anymore. But you really have an affinity for this therapist.
Speaker 1: There's actually kind of a built in advantage to that
Speaker 1: because this therapist knows your history in this relationship, and
Speaker 1: they often have that to draw upon, and they also
Speaker 1: have sort of a reference for who your partner is.
Speaker 1: If I had a therapist fantasy camp, I'd go out
Speaker 1: to a restaurant with my client and their partner. That
Speaker 1: would be so interesting for me to watch how they
Speaker 1: handle that, or even better, actually real therapist fantasy camp
Speaker 1: that I'd be in a restaurant where there's a microphone
Speaker 1: on their table. I could hear what they're saying, but
Speaker 1: they didn't know I was watching them, which seems very surveillancy,
Speaker 1: and I know that, but if I was at the table,
Speaker 1: it would change them. But if there was a way
Speaker 1: I could really watch them when they were out and
Speaker 1: about and not just the recollection of one person, that
Speaker 1: would give us tremendous insight. Unfortunately, that is not how
Speaker 1: the world. Well fortunately that's not how the world works.
Speaker 1: But it is not unusual for a person to say
Speaker 1: I really liked our couples therapists, and that person went
Speaker 1: on to be my individual therapist. That's how a lot
Speaker 1: of people have found therapists that they really love. Pugma says,
Speaker 1: my narcissistic colleague is always talking about how much therapy
Speaker 1: he's doing and how he's killing it. How is it
Speaker 1: possible he's in therapy but seems like he's more narcissistic
Speaker 1: than ever before. He makes all of our work lives miserable.
Speaker 1: Ah yeah, the bragging narcissist in therapy question. It's an
Speaker 1: interesting dynamic. In this particular case, Pudma's talking about someone
Speaker 1: she works with, But it could be happening in your family.
Speaker 1: It could be your brother saying, Hey, everyone, I'm in therapy.
Speaker 1: Guess who's the only mentally healthy person in this family?
Speaker 1: You know, you're like, what's happening? Because they're just as
Speaker 1: bad as ever. Remember, therapy only moves the needle a
Speaker 1: diny bit with narcissistic clients, And so because of that,
Speaker 1: people really think, Okay, my colleagues in therapy, that's great,
Speaker 1: but it's as bad as ever. Here's a little bit
Speaker 1: of an interesting thing that a lot of people don't know.
Speaker 1: Therapy can sometimes make narcissism worse. What yes, and how
Speaker 1: does that happen? If the therapist doesn't understand narcissism and
Speaker 1: just keeps hyper validating them like oh, I love your confidence,
Speaker 1: like you can do anything and you could be anything.
Speaker 1: This and also happen if they're in coaching, they may
Speaker 1: actually be magnifying the monster. So this person saying, well,
Speaker 1: I hope you know, but my therapist feels like all
Speaker 1: of you are limiting me. And my therapist said this,
Speaker 1: and my therapist said that, and my therapist said this.
Speaker 1: The narcissistic person triangulates the therapists into all their conversations, saying,
Speaker 1: I hope you all know you're not good for me,
Speaker 1: and you're limiting me because that's what my therapist said.
Speaker 1: We don't even know if this is what the therapist
Speaker 1: is saying, but that is not uncommon for narcissistic people
Speaker 1: to sort of play that game. And if the therapist
Speaker 1: doesn't understand narcissism, they may actually be inflaming, emboldening, and
Speaker 1: enabling this dynamic. It's really, really, really difficult because I
Speaker 1: know when I've worked with narcissistic clients, it's always been
Speaker 1: walking on this razor's edge of wanting to form a
Speaker 1: secure attachment with them but also not spoiling them, because
Speaker 1: that's really where how you create a narcissistic adult. In childhood,
Speaker 1: these are kids who are often really spoiled, but they're
Speaker 1: anxiously attached, they don't have a consistent, available caregiver, but
Speaker 1: when they do, the caregiver spoils them, and that right
Speaker 1: there is sort of one of the ways you can
Speaker 1: create a narcissist. So as a therapist, I have to
Speaker 1: be a safe, consistent place that still holds them to
Speaker 1: accountability but also supports them. So I have to have
Speaker 1: that sort of therapeutic love for them even when they're
Speaker 1: angering me, but also tell them that they're angering me.
Speaker 1: Not easy. When it works, it works great. If you
Speaker 1: don't do it right, you're actually sort of basically giving
Speaker 1: the tantruming child all the cookies it wants. It's not easy.
Speaker 1: So when you have this colleague who's saying, I'm killing
Speaker 1: it at therapy and things are as bad as ever,
Speaker 1: things were going to be bad either way, whether this
Speaker 1: colleague was in therapy or not. So all of the
Speaker 1: usual rules for working with a narcissistic colleague, making sure
Speaker 1: you document being in your own therapy, ensuring that you
Speaker 1: build relationships allyeships at work, making sure you have mentors
Speaker 1: and colleagues even in different companies that you can turn
Speaker 1: to for guidance, Having good supports outside of the workplace,
Speaker 1: all of that is going to matter because your narcissistic
Speaker 1: colleague is just going to be narcissistic. And if it's
Speaker 1: a family member where you thought this is our hope,
Speaker 1: they're in therapy and it actually feels like it's worse,
Speaker 1: this can affect you. It can take the narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: you're experiencing and you can feel even more helplessness or hopelessness.
Speaker 1: But if I can give you only one piece of guidance,
Speaker 1: the thing you may not ever want to do is
Speaker 1: roll up to that person and say, well, you feel
Speaker 1: worse now. So I don't think your therapist is doing
Speaker 1: a good job. Don't do it. It's just not worth it.
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, in their therapy, it may very well be
Speaker 1: they're getting too much of one thing and not enough
Speaker 1: of another. And also, you know what, folks, they may
Speaker 1: not be telling the truth. You'll never know if they're
Speaker 1: actually going to therapy. They may say that they are
Speaker 1: because they might be posturing. You just don't know. All
Speaker 1: you know is that you're working with someone difficult. So
Speaker 1: to Padma, I would say all the usual rules about
Speaker 1: working with a narcissistic colleague. In this next question, Orley
Speaker 1: sent us her story. When I went to marriage counseling
Speaker 1: with my ex husband, it seemed like the therapist was
Speaker 1: rooting for us to succeed, no matter what was going
Speaker 1: on in our relationship. During one session, she saw my
Speaker 1: ex absolutely blow up on me and then storm out.
Speaker 1: I sat there sobbing and said, this is what I'm
Speaker 1: dealing with and no one sees it. I was facing
Speaker 1: a health issue during this time and the best suggestion
Speaker 1: my therapist had for me was to tell me to
Speaker 1: call my mother for help instead of addressing the larger
Speaker 1: issue that my husband wouldn't help me. At the next session,
Speaker 1: it was like nothing ever happened. She was right back
Speaker 1: to normal, trying to have us both work on communication.
Speaker 1: I was doing the work, but I was also dealing
Speaker 1: with verbal, emotional, and financial abuse. She never addressed any
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know what to do. I feel
Speaker 1: like our therapists didn't recognize abuse that happened right in
Speaker 1: front of her. How did she not address this? So
Speaker 1: this is a really, really tough one. The vast majority
Speaker 1: of therapists would call someone out who was screaming at
Speaker 1: someone in a room, but unfortunately not all do, and
Speaker 1: there have been therapists out there who will say, well,
Speaker 1: they're having their process or maybe you're triggering them. All
Speaker 1: I can say is I, philosophically do not agree with that.
Speaker 1: When somebody is screaming at someone and verbally abusing them,
Speaker 1: to me, that qualifies as verbal violence and it's not okay.
Speaker 1: And the fact that that was happening in a therapy
Speaker 1: room is a signifier that this is happening far worse
Speaker 1: in the privacy of their home early. On top of that,
Speaker 1: has health issues, which when I read this question, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: it's no wonder you have health issues. A lot of
Speaker 1: folks who go through long term narcissistic abuse do develop
Speaker 1: a whole host of health issues, some from just not
Speaker 1: giving themselves adequate self care, not exercising, having disrupted sleep.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised by the number of survivors of narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: who live with autoimmune conditions like lupus, fibromyalgia, or rheumatoid arthritis.
Speaker 1: That level of chronic stress over such a protracted time
Speaker 1: really does feel like it could be a contributor to
Speaker 1: those kinds of stress related illnesses. Here, she's facing a
Speaker 1: health issue, and in a way, what the therapist was
Speaker 1: almost trying to do was let the husband off the hook.
Speaker 1: In a sick, twisted way. It could very well have
Speaker 1: been that the therapist knew the husband wouldn't help her,
Speaker 1: so call your mom so at least you'll have help.
Speaker 1: But the bigger issue for the couple's therapists to address
Speaker 1: is why is it that this man wouldn't step up
Speaker 1: to take some responsibility in the care of his wife
Speaker 1: who was struggling with a medical illness. The sort of
Speaker 1: red flags, the therapeutic red flags that are unfolding here,
Speaker 1: is that somebody was screaming in therapy and it wasn't
Speaker 1: being addressed. Like I said, I do not agree with that.
Speaker 1: Nobody needs to speak their truth by screaming it. They
Speaker 1: can speak it, they cannot yell it. When that's not
Speaker 1: being called out and someone is storming out of therapy
Speaker 1: and that is not addressed, I have to say that's
Speaker 1: probably a sign that this may not be a safe
Speaker 1: therapeutic space for you. I'll always say this therapist may
Speaker 1: very well work for somebody else, but in your situation,
Speaker 1: if you're screaming, is happening and nothing is being done,
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you folks, I've heard this happen over
Speaker 1: and over again. The number of people, the number of
Speaker 1: clients over the years have said to me, I went
Speaker 1: to couples therapy. My partner screamed at me in therapy,
Speaker 1: and the couple's therapists said, this is his process. I'm like, oh, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. And so a lot of our therapeutic work
Speaker 1: was actually sort of undoing the sort of sense of
Speaker 1: threat that came from just being in couples therapy. So
Speaker 1: when that happens, to give yourself permission to say this
Speaker 1: is not a safe space for me, I can find
Speaker 1: someone else. There's also a bit of gaslighting that happened
Speaker 1: here for this person. They came back into therapy, and
Speaker 1: no one ever mentioned that this person screamed in therapy
Speaker 1: and stormed out of the room. When something happens like that,
Speaker 1: even not in therapy, even in your regular life, where
Speaker 1: there's i don't know, someone up ends the table at
Speaker 1: a birthday party, or a screams or yells or just
Speaker 1: something like that, and then the next week you all
Speaker 1: get together and no one speaks of that is actually
Speaker 1: a form of gaslighting. Because this really really messed up.
Speaker 1: Perhaps even traumatizing thing or very very sort of activating thing,
Speaker 1: upsetting thing happens and nobody notices it. You're thinking, am
Speaker 1: I the only person who saw that? You doubt yourself
Speaker 1: and when everyone's just sort of being dinner like normal,
Speaker 1: there's got to be something wrong with me. So even
Speaker 1: silence can bring out that kind of gaslighting not mentioning it.
Speaker 1: Who knows what the therapist's motivation was for not mentioning it.
Speaker 1: But there's a danger when couple's therapy gets solely focused
Speaker 1: on communication. Unfortunately, therapy can sometimes be dogmatic, like there's
Speaker 1: one right way. Communication is a path forward. Human beings
Speaker 1: aren't labrats. We're a lot more complex than that. We're
Speaker 1: made up of stories, experiences, trauma. We bring many different
Speaker 1: experiences generationally through our cultures. So it's not as simple
Speaker 1: as communication is. Everything not so simple. But sadly that
Speaker 1: many times people can get stuck in that way of thinking.
Speaker 1: What Orley says is, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: I feel like our therapists didn't recognize abuse that happened
Speaker 1: right in front of her. The therapist didn't recognize abuse
Speaker 1: that happened right in front of her. How did she
Speaker 1: not address this. That how is something we may not
Speaker 1: ever answer. I think it's dangerous if I speculate here
Speaker 1: why the therapist didn't address it. It could have been
Speaker 1: the therapist herself might have been scared in that situation.
Speaker 1: The therapist may have a a very clear philosophical point
Speaker 1: of view. The therapist might have been fine with him yelling.
Speaker 1: We don't know, so it's impossible to address that. It's
Speaker 1: also not unusual for people in these situations to resent
Speaker 1: the therapist and feel like that's not okay. How can
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible person, I'm resenting someone who's helping me.
Speaker 1: There are no unacceptable feelings. I'm going to say that
Speaker 1: one more time. There are no unacceptable feelings. You feel
Speaker 1: what you feel. You have your feeling. You be with
Speaker 1: your feeling, and it works its way through. One of
Speaker 1: the worst things we do to ourselves is we judge
Speaker 1: and we shame our emotional experiences, and that is magnified
Speaker 1: for people who are going through narcissistic abuse. Be with
Speaker 1: your feeling, you resent your therapist, that's okay. What you
Speaker 1: do with that, that's up to you. Some people may
Speaker 1: choose to share it, some people may not. Some people
Speaker 1: may ask for a referral. Some people may simply stop
Speaker 1: going to therapy. This is why it is important to
Speaker 1: have one good, supportive therapeutic space in your life. Again, ideally,
Speaker 1: if you can your own therapy to share those feelings.
Speaker 1: I work on Zoom, they'll say can I turn off
Speaker 1: my camera? To me? I feel like whatever the client
Speaker 1: asks for and that space is okay. They'll turn it
Speaker 1: off and they'll tell me what they feel when they
Speaker 1: turn the camera back on. We got to break that
Speaker 1: one down, but there's so much shame and that where
Speaker 1: do we start. There's no unacceptable feelings you resent your therapist,
Speaker 1: that's okay, and sometimes processing that may not only release
Speaker 1: someone who left you feeling unsafe in that room, but
Speaker 1: perhaps some of the anger you had over other unsafe
Speaker 1: relationships that you've had throughout your life. Not every therapist
Speaker 1: is good for every client. We are not made for everyone.
Speaker 1: It is important that you find therapeutic spaces that feel
Speaker 1: safe and okay for you. Why therapists do what they do.
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's dangerous to speculate on, but what
Speaker 1: you need to remember is if it doesn't feel good,
Speaker 1: you can make that choice for yourself to find a space,
Speaker 1: whether that's your own individual therapy or a future couple's referral,
Speaker 1: that feels better when we love someone. We love the
Speaker 1: narcissistic people who are in our life. That's what makes
Speaker 1: it complicated. Obviously, we just have the hope that can't
Speaker 1: I make this better, and therapy feels like it could
Speaker 1: be that space. Therapy with a narcissistic person, even at
Speaker 1: the individual level, for us as therapists, is complicated, but
Speaker 1: it's very complicated if you go in with them. Every
Speaker 1: so often, Yep, there's a unicorn and people say that
Speaker 1: we actually made something of this, or at a minimum,
Speaker 1: I felt like I had a safe space with a
Speaker 1: referee in the room where I could let my pain
Speaker 1: be known. However the narcissistic person registered it. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I felt safer having that person in there. Other
Speaker 1: people might say we tried, the therapist tried to push
Speaker 1: the conversation, it didn't work, they dropped off, and I
Speaker 1: ended up with a good therapist. But above all, else
Speaker 1: which you have to remember, is that when you go
Speaker 1: into therapy with whomever the narcissistic person is in your life,
Speaker 1: give yourself permission to say, does this feel Okay. Remember,
Speaker 1: not every therapist is perfect for every client. Not every
Speaker 1: therapist can work well with every couple or family or whatever.
Speaker 1: To give yourself that choice to choose a therapeutic situation
Speaker 1: that feels good for you, and if it doesn't feel
Speaker 1: good for you, one of the greatest gifts you can
Speaker 1: give yourself is to say I deserve to feel safe
Speaker 1: and not do it. But it's a complicated conversation, and
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people wonder what happens in
Speaker 1: that therapy room with the narcissistic client. Listen, I've worked
Speaker 1: with a lot of narcissistic clients, and I've seen things
Speaker 1: in there that were profound, sublime, hilarious, heartbreaking, terrifying, and
Speaker 1: sometimes even optimistic. It's a complicated space. I've been really
Speaker 1: privileged to work with clients who are both narcissistic and
Speaker 1: who have gone through narcissistic abuse. I've learned from both,
Speaker 1: and above all else, I've learned that therapy is science,
Speaker 1: it's magic, it's mysticism, it's empathy, it's compassion, and for
Speaker 1: anyone going in it can feel like a big risk.
Speaker 1: For any of you who are in therapy, good for you,
Speaker 1: it's not an easy journey to go on to ever
Speaker 1: be vulnerable with another human being,