WEBVTT - Ifeoma Ozoma: The Woman Who Is Trying to Make Tech Safer, Even If It Costs Her 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. As always, 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.920 I am joined by my lovely producer, Sophie. Sophie, thank 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.959 you for being here. Happy to be here as always. Bridget, 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.680 how are you? I am As I told you earlier, 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.400 I kind of have the bloss. I'm not drinking for 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.720 dry January, which is taking its toll. But I'm good. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.239 I'm good. How about you? I was telling Bridget off 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.120 Mike that I was like, I'm thinking about doing thirty 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:29.880 days no dairy, but I don't know how to do 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.000 that without cheese, And Bridget was like, cheese is one 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.239 of the only purely good things that we have in 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.320 this world. You can't give it up. And I take 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.400 that to heart. I'm like, you're You're so right. We 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.000 just don't have that many things that are just pure 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.760 good in this world. We need to protect them, indulge them, 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:54.440 respect them. I appreciate so. As you know, so far 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.120 on this podcast, we have talked so much about things 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.520 like harassment and abuse and those kinds of things happening 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.520 on social media platforms that we know disproportionately impact marginalized 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.600 people like black women, so much so that black women 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.120 are sometimes called canaries in a coal mine when it 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.400 comes to technology harms because, as I hope I've demonstrated 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.960 in this podcast, first, something harmful online will happen to 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.600 black women, and those black women speak up about it, 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.840 and nobody with power really does anything to address it. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.080 And then that harmful thing online happens to more and 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.240 more people, and then it just becomes a normalized thing. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.880 That is everybody's problem. I have argued many many times, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.720 and I think that our digital media ecosystem is broken 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.360 because lies and conspiracy theories and harassment are amplified and incentivized. 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.560 But I want to be clear that it does not 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.880 have to be this way. I firmly believe that something 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:51.480 different is possible. In fact, many of the technologists, organizers, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.600 and activists who are doing the work of trying to 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.920 build that better Internet future come from the same marginalized 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.640 backgrounds that are so often harmed online. But doing that 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.160 critical work of making the Internet safer comes at such 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:09.040 a high cost for these folks, high cost financially, professionally, 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.200 and personally, and it shouldn't have to be this way, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.520 and I think that's really part of the problem. One 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.560 of the reasons why this problem is such an ongoing 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.160 persistent one is because a lot of the people who 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.000 are trying to make technology safer are at best ignored 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.360 and at worst like actively punished for it. And until 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.440 we change that aspect of our culture and technology, I 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.239 don't think we're gonna get anywhere. And a story of 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.200 one of my favorite technologists, Efoma Uzoma, I think illustrates 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.560 exactly what I mean. So this episode is gonna be 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.600 a little bit different. Um. I want to tell you 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.799 a bit about I Foma and her story, and then 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.520 we're gonna hear from her in her own words. So 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:53.080 let's get into it. I love a format up. Yeah, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.880 switching it up. I think it's it's great whenever you 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.960 can hear somebody's story in their own words. Oh, it's 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.000 It's like why I became a podcaster. I feel like 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.120 there's something you know, you could read someone's op ed 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.680 or read someone's writing, but there's something about hearing someone 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.640 tell their story and how they felt and where they 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.040 were at in their own words that just I don't 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.880 know it. It hits to the quick a little a 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.840 little better. I don't know completely agree. So Ethoma is 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.360 a public policy expert and technologist. She worked at Google, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.400 and also worked on anti hate speech initiatives and community 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.320 standards at Facebook before landing at the social media platform Pinterest, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.160 where she was one of the first hires on Pinterests 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.720 then newly formed public policy team. Sophie, Do you do 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:42.040 you use Pinterest? Uh No, but I definitely did, Like 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.840 I stopped really using it around then as well. Go 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:49.800 back and look at some of the things that you pinned, 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:51.880 Like if you were like, oh, my dream wedding board 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:58.560 and just have a I hate myself had the worst taste. 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.720 It's yeah, if that's I hope that doesn't still exist. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:11.320 I am sorry to say it might stops recording in scrubs. Um, yeah, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.120 I don't know. I am actually googling if I have 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.560 atuff still. Oh man, I'm pretty sure it does exist though, 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.360 But I don't think it's like there's much on there. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.080 There's definitely like a photo of me that should not 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.919 be on the internet because it's atrocious haircut style. But 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.920 you know, I had to go in and like wipe 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:35.360 mine because also that was the era of American apparel 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.240 kind of like hipster stuff. I was definitely into that. 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.840 So it was a lot of just really questionable fashion 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.160 choices that I am happy that to say that I 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.240 deleted from the Internet. Okay, so I have to I 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.719 have nothing that I've created on picterest. I have too 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.159 safe posts. One is a post that's like twenty five 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.760 ridiculously healthy foods and it's like a graphic. It's like cool, weird, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.360 problematic diet stuff. And then I have a quote that says, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.040 your flaws are perfect for the heart that is meant 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:14.080 to love you. Oh Sophie. And this amazing side Bang 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.680 situation if you can see it you, Oh my god, 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.359 it's a version of me. Oh my god. I I 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.320 wish I could hear from that version of Sophie. I 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.320 didn't know. I didn't. I didn't know Side Bang inspirational 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:35.839 quote Sophie. Oh she did a smokey eye. Oh incredible. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.359 I have like a John and John and Kate plus 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.920 eight haircut in this situation. Like it's like I definitely didn't. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.080 But this crop is like not helping me. Oh boy boy, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:52.560 howdy what a time Anyways, this is not about me, Pintra, Yeah, 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.800 I mean it. It is such an interesting sort of 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.200 digital time capsule of times gone by. I guess I'll say. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.560 And so Ifoma, you know, she gets hired at Pinterest, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.640 and before that she had working at Facebook, and she 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.960 describes the company culture of working at Facebook as very direct. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.920 She told Time Magazine about a time where she directly 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.160 questioned Mark Zuckerberg about why he had not spoken up 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.120 after the death of Heather Higher in Charlottesville at an 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.040 all hands meeting, and Zuckerberg actually admitted in front of 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.200 everybody that it was a mistake to not do so. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.000 And so she was like, oh, yeah, I came from 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:31.279 this culture of you know, directness that was tantamount at Facebook. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.480 So if the culture at Facebook was direct at Pinterest, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.960 she found it was very very different. Interesting, Yeah, it is. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.080 I think like it's interesting because I think that Pinterest 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:48.160 kind of had a, i guess perhaps unearned reputation of 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.440 being kind of a softer, cuddlier tech company. You know, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.240 nobody's gonna mistake somebody like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.400 for like a cuddly nice guy running a cuddly nice platform, right, 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.920 We're all it's clear the kind of platform that they're 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:03.880 running and the kind of people they are. Can't even 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.599 imagine Bezos giving somebody a hug. Oh oh, I don't. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:09.559 I don't want it because it would be very sharp. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.320 I wouldn't want it. But yeah, Pinterest had this reputation 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.360 of being like a gentler, cuddlier kind of a tech 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.920 company that cares, for lack of a better phrase, Ifoma's 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.440 job at Pinterest was working on the platform's policies to 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.720 create safer and better online experiences for their users. She 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.760 says that from her very first meetings at pinterest, she 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.680 could kind of tell the vibes were off. She told 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.040 Time that in her very first meeting with senior leadership, 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.080 she questioned the company's decision to keep info wars is 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.679 Alex Jones on the platform and got pushed back. She says, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.320 quote the entire strategy was lay low, don't wait in 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.160 on anything, And I was like, this is not controversial. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.480 This is someone who is harassing the parents of Sandy Hook. So, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:56.560 you know, wanting to kick somebody like Alex Jones off 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.600 of the platform that shouldn't have been controversial, And in 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.040 fact that it's the kind of thing that she's hired 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.280 to do at Pinterest. I happen to know I Foma. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.440 She is a get ship done type of woman, and 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.400 so she does not lay low when it comes to 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.760 her work, and they're in kind of lies a little 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.920 bit of the dilemma for women who are tasked with 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.640 making technology and the internet safer. You might get praise 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.280 for it publicly, but then be punished for it privately. 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.560 And that's exactly what happened to her, right that, I know, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.880 it's not it's not great, So listeners might actually know 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.839 a little bit about Efoma's work without necessarily like knowing 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.439 it was hers or knowing her name. She spearheaded a 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.840 lot of policies at pinterest that earned the platform a 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.200 lot of public praise and like really good press. While 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.439 working at pinterest, she ushered in the first real medical 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.520 misinformation policy at a social media platform that included limiting 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.280 vaccine misinformation and searches in into that's and nineteen um. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.360 This came after a measles outbreak, which you might remember 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.600 that was really driven by you know, parents being like, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.600 who am going to vaccinate my kid against the measles? 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.600 Because it's trendy, And this was really important because pinterest 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.600 is a kind of platform that a lot of parents use, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.440 a lot of moms use it. It's where you might 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.480 spend time if you're planning a wedding or setting up 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.160 a nursery. Of mothers and thirty percent of fathers in 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.800 the United States are on Pinterest, according to research, And 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.439 unlike a platform like Twitter or Facebook, it's a platform 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.680 where you might not be mentally prepared or primed to 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.320 expect to encounter medical misinformation, so you're not really like 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.760 you can be more susceptible to it. If you're just scrolling, 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:39.000 you know, inspirational quotes and nursery ideas on Pinterest, you 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.520 might not be expecting to encounter vaccine misinformation, and then 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:43.960 your guard is going to be a little bit down 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:49.000 for sure. And it's a platform that skews heavily female, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.440 and we know that women are more likely to be 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.080 the sort of medical decision makers in their household, and 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.319 so them being targeted by misinformation on Pinterest, it's kind 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.720 of a big deal. And so Pinterest coming out with 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.120 this policy to ban medical misinformation was like kind of 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.840 a big deal in the misinformation space. This was also 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.320 way before COVID was a thing, So becoming the first 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.880 platform to proactively deal with medical misinformation something that we 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.000 know would become so important during COVID, was like a 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.440 huge deal, right, So like this was this was we 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.400 saw this happen quite a lot and you know, sometimes 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.960 in a performative way but also like in a good 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:34.840 way during But we're talking about what this is. This 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.520 is twenty okay, so that's still that's like very I 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:43.840 feel it's very relevant that it was happening before. I mean, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.840 having done a little bit of this work myself. When 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:51.120 big platforms make a change like this, it can be 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:54.120 the domino effect that has other platforms do the same. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.520 And so you know, if Reddit does something, it might 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.560 create the conditions for other platforms to be like, oh, 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.480 I kind of have to do it. And so Pinterest 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.920 becoming pretty much the first platform to do this kind 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:06.560 of was a big deal, and I think it I 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.959 think it did create the conditions for other platforms to 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:10.440 be like, oh wait, this is something we have to 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.840 take seriously. Okay, let's let's let's figure it out. Yeah 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:18.679 that's very uh before the times, Yeah, thank you we foma. 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.240 So a lot of people will probably associate Pinterest with 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.360 planning weddings, and folks might recall that in twenty nineteen, 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.200 Pinterest also announced that they were going to no longer 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:31.320 allow plantations that used to house enslaved people to be 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.680 listed as you know, romantic wedding venues on the platform. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.400 That was also a foma's doing. She worked with Jade 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.839 Magnus of the racial justice organization Color of Change to 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.520 change this policy at pinterest. That got so much good press, like, wow, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:51.760 this company is like proactively banning slave plantations as a 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.640 place that you can describe as a romantic venue for 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.240 a wedding, And it kind of created a new conversation around, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:03.600 you know, platforms and the responsibility they have to ethically 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.600 talk about things like plantations. Yes, we know that, Jennifer 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:12.040 Lopez and Ben Affleck, We're not using pinterest. It's so 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.640 wealthy that they got married what like a few months 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.240 ago on a plantation. I don't understand it. Blake Lively, 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.640 I'm like, Okay, well, maybe it's possible that if you're 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.240 from the West Coast and before we were kind of 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.559 having the national conversation about this, I'll allow that maybe 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.280 you just never thought about it. Jennifer Lopez, I feel 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.880 like there's no excuse. I'm also looking at you the 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.920 Bibers did did they get married on a plantation? I'm 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.640 nodding the listeners. I am nodding my head in South Carolina. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.200 Oh no, yeah, yeah, just let me double check my 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.920 factor check that one. I mean I wouldn't know, but 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.760 I wouldn't I wouldn't put it past him. The first 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.880 thing that pops up is plantation weddings will no one 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:59.240 to be freely promoted on Pinterest. Thank you, Foma. This 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.280 article start. The idea that celebrity says Prominence Black Live 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.439 or Justin Bieber would get me to get married at 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.800 a former concentration camp is particularly inconceivable, and yet both 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.960 Lively and be Ribbon fact chosen to get married at 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.920 the sites of former forced labor camps in recent years. Yep, 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.160 my insult stands. Yes, your insult stands, um so I. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:24.520 Foma basically was like a one woman positive press shop 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.760 for Pinterest. She got all of this positive press for 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.000 making these progressive, proactive policy decisions and setting a good 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.480 example for other platforms. But rather than being praised for 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.680 this work that made the company look so great and 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.560 so progressive and so cuddly and warm and YadA YadA YadA, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.760 and also added a lot of value to the company 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.640 as it was preparing to go public. She was retaliated 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.360 against for this work by her own colleagues. So here's 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.160 where it starts to go down. I Foma suggested that 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.760 Pinterest start adding a content warning to posts made by 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.800 right wing grifter Ben Shapiro. I know he, I can't 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.280 even and I hate him so much. At the time, 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.160 y'all might remember that Shapiro was doing a lot of 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.680 espousing of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory, which we know 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.520 is a white supremacist conspiracy theory that posits that non 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.840 white lesser people are threatening the white majority with the 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:23.680 help of globalists and elitists. I eat Jewish people. Uh, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.680 and so if Alma suggested that these posts from Ben 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.640 Shapiro get a content warning on Pinterest. When she suggested this, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.760 one of her colleagues at pinterest, who was a software developer, 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.520 dosed her. Shared her full name, her cell phone number, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.040 her email addressed, and her picture was Project Veritas, which 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.440 led to her personal information and being published on eight 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.920 Chan and Fortune, which we already know. You know, like 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:51.360 sites full of extremists and abusers and bad actors who 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.840 already had roles in harassing women, like Adrian Richards. We've 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:56.920 already talked about on the pod and say I eat 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:01.720 dongle Gate exactly. Um, she gets death threats, rape threats, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.360 and she was terrified if almost starts keeping a gun 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.280 and eventually she had to move because the harassment got 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.320 so bad by her own fucking colleagues first, like like 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.080 her own fucking colleagues. Also, it's like to hear that, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.640 like Ben Shapiro, like infiltrated Pinterest is so wild to me, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.480 Like that just like that as like a concept is 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.120 it just like doesn't comprehend in my brain. Yeah, I 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.680 get what you mean, And I think it really speaks 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.720 to the way that misinformation and conspiracy theories work these days. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.960 Where again, if you're just if you're just pinning pictures 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:41.680 of recipes and meal planning ideas and flowers or whatever 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.920 on Pinterest, you might not be expecting to encounter this 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:51.200 kind of harmful, anti Semitic, racist conspiracy theory. But oftentimes 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.440 on those platforms, these kind of dangerous conspiracy theories can 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.160 be dressed up intentionally to target women. So you might 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.120 be just like looking for nurse ideas, are looking for 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.880 ideas on how to can your own vegetables. Next thing, 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.640 you know, you're ten pins deep into like great replacement 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:13.200 trad wife in cell manno sphere bullshit, And I think 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.200 that's that's kind of how we're seeing a lot of 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.080 these conspiracy theories spread online today, in these in these 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:29.760 very unlikely corners of the Internet. So when e Foma 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.840 reported what her coworker had done, rather than investigating whether 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.080 or not, you know, one of their employees had actually 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.680 jeopardized the safety of another employee, if Almo says that 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.800 Pinterest instead wanted to investigate whether or not Ben Shapiro 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.920 was actually indeed a white supremacist. She told the Washington 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.000 Post quote, instead of focusing on security and making sure 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.360 that we were fine and validating the concerns that we had, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.360 their concern was, is what you said valid? Almost like 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.200 the employee had a legitimate reason to share my personal 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.000 information all over the internet. Pinterest did not help e 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:09.400 Foma get the information removed, nor did they ever punish 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.320 the employee who was responsible for docs in her and 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.480 spreading her information on the internet. I'm glad I haven't 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:22.360 used this, sus. Yeah, it's awful. So separate from all 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.480 of this, e Foma had lodged a pay discrimination complaint. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.919 While working at pinterest, she had been doing all of 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.840 this groundbreaking work, but she had been hired at a 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.719 much more junior role than she should have been compared 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.080 to the workload that she actually had. She said that 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.240 she was doing the same work as her manager. I 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.200 Foma was a good performer during her time at pinterest, 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.119 like all of her performance reviews are stellar. She earned 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.680 two raises and a promotion during her two year span 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.240 at the company, but none of this addressed the fact 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.720 that she had been hired initially at the wrong level, 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.840 which means that she is losing thousands of dollars in 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.280 stock options just because of the like particularities of compensation 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.240 packages at tech companies. She's still getting these great marks 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.959 with the company, but when she starts pushing for fair pay, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.119 even going so far as pursuing it with a lawyer, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.439 the company starts to further alienate her. Like during a 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.960 performance review, while she was talking about her work getting 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.560 platforms to stop promoting slave plantations as wedding venues, her 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.920 manager said that I Foma should have provided the pros 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.160 of promoting slave plantations as well as the cons conny, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.359 What yeah, Like, what are the pros to continuing to 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.160 have these on your platform, I would say none. It's awful. 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.600 And honestly, if you think that's bad, during our conversation 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.119 that you'll hear in a moment, I Foma actually dropped 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.000 another little nugget of something that she found out about 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.520 this particular manager that will make it all makes sense. 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.800 So if you think that's bad, listen to that conversation, 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.200 because it gets a lot worse. What is this person 0:18:53.320 --> 0:19:01.160 that's like what? Yeah, so basically just both sides ing flavory. Yeah, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.560 I'm sorry, Like read read the root. What do you 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.000 think about what you're saying before you say it? This 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.560 person should not be anybody's manager. That is so dangerous 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:18.720 and harmful exactly. So in Mayfoma quits Pinterest. She gets 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.560 six months severance, and honestly, that might have been the 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.040 end of it, right, Like she talks about how she 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.040 wanted things to be professional. She really was loyal to 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:32.119 the company until summer during the racial justice uprisings in 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.040 the wake of the death of George Floyd. Now, I 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.960 remember this time because it was like it just was 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.879 like a weird time where do you remember, like people 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.159 would put their black lives Matter posts up and it 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.920 would be like, well, actually you're racist, or like actually 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:48.639 you said this to me? Like it was like a 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:53.600 time where I was like, before you post your black square, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.080 really make sure that your own house is in order. 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.880 Like who was the woman from Glee who was like 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.960 I stand with black Live List? Was it Leah Michelle? 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:08.119 It was Liah Michelle and Amber Riley, her black Glee classmate, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.320 was like, oh, Liam Michelle, black lives matter? Did black 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:13.760 lives matter? When you called me a black bitch and 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:15.879 told everybody you were going to ship in my wig 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.080 when we were on set? Oh god, yeah, It's just 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.440 it's it's like during Pride Month when you're like, Burger King, 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.439 what are you doing? Uh yeah, Burger King stands with 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.160 the queer community. You're like, can I have my whopper? 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:38.560 You're making me uncomfortable. So Pinterest puts up a statement 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.480 in support of Black Lives Matter. They say, with everything 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.399 we do, we will make it clear that our black 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.960 employees matter. And if she them, did she roast them? 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.600 She roast them? So cool? So she tweets I recently 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.720 decided to leave Pinterest, which is just declared solidarity with 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.560 Black Lives Matter? What a joke. As a black woman 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.120 seeing Pinterests middle of the night, Black employees matter statement 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.919 made me scratch my head after I just fought for 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.639 a full year to be paid and leveled fairly, a 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.280 year in which I was a docked by a white 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.720 male colleague. He shared my cell phone number, of photo 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.000 and name with violently racist and misogynistic parts of the Internet, 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.560 followed up by a dangerously inadequate response from Pinterest. B 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.720 continued to service the leader of and spokesperson for Pinterests 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.560 biggest public policy wins see scores of interviews and articles 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.920 on addressing health, misinformation, emotional well being, stopping the promotion 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.679 of plantation wedding venues see kept all of the above 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.240 qualet for professionalism and then the hope that pinterest would 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.240 do the right thing. Instead, they doubled down on retaliation. 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.920 Now pinterest is claiming to be listening and acting mere 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.159 weeks after replacing me and another black woman colleague who 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.440 also decided to leave with you guessed it probably a 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.159 white person. I am so proud of the initiatives that 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.119 I led it during my time here, addressing health missinfote decisively. 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.720 It's no longer novel. Thanks to that work. I just 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.320 ship wasn't sulfid by the racism, gas lighting and disrespect 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.360 from my manager and the company's legal and HR leadership. 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:11.080 Racism is dehumanizing and exhausting. I busted my ass at Yale, Google, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.679 then Facebook before Pinterest recruited me as the second higher 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.560 on the global public policy team. I lad work that 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.359 raised our public policy profile globally. It didn't matter because 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.600 I'm a black woman. I've seen examples of genuine contrition, 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.160 even reparation this past week from others. I hope Pinterest 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.800 take this opportunity to express not only their solidarity but 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.119 also follows through on their commitment and taking action sharing 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.720 This is scary, especially after being docks and knowing the 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.439 many forms that retaliation can take. I owe it to 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.200 myself and black colleagues still there to hold the company 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.320 to the commitments it's made Pinterest. Black employees do indeed matter, 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:52.840 pay us fairly. Period periods spelled out and then appear 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:57.479 in the an actual period period period. So her tweets 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.879 go hella viral. This is when she was first on 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:01.760 I radar. I was like, oh my god, who is this, Like, 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:05.680 who is this amazing woman calling out this company publicly 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:11.000 and like demanding accountability. So cool, so cool. So staffers 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.880 at pinterest they hold a walkout in support of Efoma 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:19.440