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Speaker 1: Is the recount effort in three battleground states nothing more

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Speaker 1: than a hail Mary Pass. Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate,

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Speaker 1: has raised more than six million dollars for the effort.

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Speaker 1: In a video on her Facebook page, Stein said the

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Speaker 1: party did not have a smoking gun showing fraud, but

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Speaker 1: let me say, we do not need to prove that

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Speaker 1: there was fraud in order to justify a voting system

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Speaker 1: that is secure and that we have confidence in. Hillary

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Speaker 1: Clinton's campaign announced it will join in any recount despite

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Speaker 1: no actionable evidence of vote hacking, in order to ensure

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Speaker 1: the process proceeds in a manner of fair to all parties. Trump,

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Speaker 1: who lost the popular vote, called the recount effort a scam.

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Speaker 1: His chief of staff, Ryan's previous told Fox News the

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Speaker 1: recount was ridiculous. I think the American people know this

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Speaker 1: is a waste of everyone's time and money, and it's

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Speaker 1: only for to divide this country when we need to

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Speaker 1: come together. The Obama administration has defended the inten agorty

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Speaker 1: of the vote, but Trump himself has tweeted that millions

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Speaker 1: of people voted illegally as an explanation of why he

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Speaker 1: was two million votes behind Clinton in the popular vote.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is Josh Douglas. He's a professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Kentucky. Josh, even if there's no smoking gun,

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Speaker 1: is there anything wrong with going through with recounts allowed

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Speaker 1: by law in order to provide certainty, especially when you

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Speaker 1: had an election campaign where there was evidence of hacking

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Speaker 1: and interference by other countries. Well, there's nothing illegally wrong

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Speaker 1: with it, and certainly there within their right to request

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Speaker 1: the recount. I think it is concerning that there's continued

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Speaker 1: questions about the legitimacy of the process and the legitimacy

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Speaker 1: of the result. What I fear is that this recount

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Speaker 1: business is taking the focus away from areas where I

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Speaker 1: do think there are actual problems with the election system

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Speaker 1: that need to be fixed. So, although you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't think the recounts kind go anywhere, Uh, and there

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Speaker 1: within the right to request it, I think we should

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Speaker 1: be focusing on on bigger problems. Josh. What would we

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Speaker 1: learn from a recount? What? How is it that the

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Speaker 1: count may may come out differently the second time around?

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Speaker 1: The recount will be done at the county level in

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Speaker 1: each of the states. Uh. And so take Michigan for example,

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Speaker 1: which uses all paper ballots Wisconsin is a mix of

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Speaker 1: of all paper and some machines that don't have a

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Speaker 1: paper trail. Um. But they'll basically at the county level,

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Speaker 1: the individual county clerks will go through a process will

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Speaker 1: they will actually recount each of the ballots in the

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Speaker 1: states that just have electronic voting machines of the note

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Speaker 1: paper trail, which I think is a big concern. Uh,

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Speaker 1: They'll do what they was known as re canvassing and

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Speaker 1: the machines and basically check the tallies on the machines. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll see the shift of votes some one way or another, um.

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Speaker 1: Not by much, probably numbering in a couple of hundreds uh.

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Speaker 1: In recounts that have been done statewide in the past

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, the margin typically only shifts by a few

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Speaker 1: hundred votes UM. And so you know, that's what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna learn is a more accurate count done at the

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Speaker 1: county level to declare how many votes each candidate received.

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Speaker 1: Josh Trump himself tweeted out that millions of people voted illegally.

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Speaker 1: Does that provide support for the theory of the recount? Well,

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Speaker 1: Trump has no evidence whatsoever for that claim, And I

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Speaker 1: think that claim is is as dangerous or probably more

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Speaker 1: dangerous than going through the recount, because this is the

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Speaker 1: president elect who should be trying to bring people together,

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Speaker 1: tweeting out allegations with absolutely no evidence. Um. So, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that necessarily provides a greater reason to

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Speaker 1: have the recount, although uh, certainly, um, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: ironic that he is making these claims in the midst

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Speaker 1: of the other side also claiming that there are problems

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Speaker 1: with the integrity of the election system. You know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that that is revered about our democracy

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Speaker 1: worldwide is that we have a peaceful transfer of power. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and the winners, you know, graciously accept their win the

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Speaker 1: losers graciously accept the feet. And when we start questioning

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Speaker 1: when there's no basis of changing the result whatsoever and

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Speaker 1: really no evidence that there are problems, I think it

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Speaker 1: puts people into a frenzy that unnecessarily takes attention away

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Speaker 1: from other concerns like why were there thousands of people

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Speaker 1: who actually were not able to vote because of oners

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Speaker 1: voting laws that have no real justification. Well, along those lines,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of the Clinton campaign's stance in

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Speaker 1: this They say they're gonna take part in the recount,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't the ones who were requesting it in

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Speaker 1: the first place. I think it makes a lot of sense. Uman.

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Speaker 1: Certainly politically, they don't want to be the ones that

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Speaker 1: are looking like they are trying to question the results.

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Speaker 1: But now that the process is started, I think it's

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Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable for her representatives and Trump's representatives to be

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Speaker 1: involved in the process. Um. You know, I think the

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Speaker 1: is a in some ways to wait and see type

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Speaker 1: of stance that they're taking. Um. I think they recognize

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Speaker 1: that the results not going to be changed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it would take something truly extraordinary to change the result

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Speaker 1: by the thousands of votes that the current margins are

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Speaker 1: in each of the three states, or in all of

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Speaker 1: the three states to give Clinton an electoral college victory. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's fine for lawyers to be involved

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Speaker 1: now that the process has started. Now, the three states

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Speaker 1: which are being targeted for recounts have different methods of voting,

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Speaker 1: and different methods for recounts. Is one more difficult than

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Speaker 1: the other? Yeah? The states that have more electronic voting

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Speaker 1: machines with no paper ballots or no nor verified paper

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Speaker 1: trail make it a lot harder because you can't actually

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Speaker 1: recount anything. All you can do is check the machines

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Speaker 1: to ensure that the number of votes on the machines

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Speaker 1: is accurately reflected. Uh. In some ways, that's almost like

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Speaker 1: just pushed the button the in on the machine for

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Speaker 1: it to tell you the count a second time after

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Speaker 1: you did it once already. Uh. And so that's problematic

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Speaker 1: for getting an accurate vote count. And as I said,

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania has all electronic voting machines. Michigan's process, which uses

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Speaker 1: all paper ballots that are fed into an electronic scanner

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Speaker 1: to count uh initially and then we'll be hand recounted,

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Speaker 1: is a lot easier from an accuracy standpoint. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna take a lot of work because there's millions of

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Speaker 1: ballots that will we need to be recounted in each

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Speaker 1: of the counties. Um. But at least we'll get a

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Speaker 1: more accurate count through that method. But Josh, and none

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Speaker 1: of these states do you expect anything close to I

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Speaker 1: guess the closest of them is what about eleven thousand

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Speaker 1: in Michigan. You're you're only talking about a change of

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Speaker 1: a much smaller number than that. Yeah, I would be

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Speaker 1: shocked if we had a shift of that many votes again,

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Speaker 1: uh In I think it's twenty two statewide recounts since

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Speaker 1: two thousand UM. The mark and shifted uh an average

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Speaker 1: just about a couple of hundred votes UM, and only

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Speaker 1: three of those states did result actually change. In three

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Speaker 1: of those cases, one was the two thousand for Washington

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Speaker 1: governor's race, another was the two thousand eight US Senate

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Speaker 1: recount in Minnesota, and then Vermont had a a state

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Speaker 1: auditor position where the result changed after the recount. But again,

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Speaker 1: the margin of victory on election night was only a

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Speaker 1: couple of hundred votes and the shift in votes was

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Speaker 1: only a couple of hundred as well. We've never seen

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Speaker 1: anything that would shift eleven thousand, much less just a

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Speaker 1: couple of thousands. Clinton is the fifth candidate in US

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Speaker 1: history to lose the electoral college vote despite winning the

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Speaker 1: popular vote. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has said the recount

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Speaker 1: efforts are a legal right and no big deal, but

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Speaker 1: he's joined those Democrats who are calling for a re

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Speaker 1: examination of the electoral college system. Sanders pointed out the

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Speaker 1: strange result of electoral college to CNN. We have one

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Speaker 1: candidate got some in more votes than the other candidate,

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Speaker 1: but she is not going to be sworn in as president,

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Speaker 1: and I think on the surface that's a little bit weird.

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Speaker 1: We've been talking with Josh Douglas, a professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Kentucky. Josh, does this election result prove that

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Speaker 1: the Founding father father's reasons for wanting an electoral college

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Speaker 1: just don't work out anymore? I think that's right. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think we have gone past the point where the

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Speaker 1: auditoral college makes sense for our democracy. Um. The reasons

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Speaker 1: the Founding Fathers decided to use the electoral college was

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Speaker 1: to protect small states and also because travel was very

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Speaker 1: hard and so national campaigning was very difficult. Um. We

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Speaker 1: don't really have that any longer, and so I do

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Speaker 1: think the electoral college has outlived a usefulness. Josh, let

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Speaker 1: me ask, uh, well, so much smaller question about the

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Speaker 1: electoral college, which which is I'm about how that fits

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Speaker 1: in with the recount issue that we were talking about before.

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Speaker 1: We saw back in two thousand that there are some

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Speaker 1: deadlines that that occur in the electoral college process. Is

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Speaker 1: it compare we have a system where where states run

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Speaker 1: the elections, but they have to have their electors vote

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Speaker 1: in the electoral college. Is there a timing problem with

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Speaker 1: the way this all works. Yeah, it's a really crunched

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Speaker 1: time concern. The federal law says that you have to

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Speaker 1: finish your post election procedures and certified results for the

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Speaker 1: presidential election, uh six days before the electoral College is

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Speaker 1: set to meet. This year, the Electoral College will meet

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Speaker 1: in all fifty states on December nineteen, when they'll actually

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Speaker 1: cast their votes, which means that all of the recounts

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Speaker 1: have to be done by December. And that timing issue

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Speaker 1: was one of the biggest disputes in that two thousand

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Speaker 1: case out of Florida Bush v. Gore that went to

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court, and the court stopped forwards

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Speaker 1: reach count in part or largely because Florida was not

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Speaker 1: going to be able to finish their recount by the

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Speaker 1: safe harbor deadline. Josh, speaking of the two thousand election,

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Speaker 1: there were calls for doing away with the electoral college

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Speaker 1: at that point. What would it take to do away

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Speaker 1: with the electoral college and have a president elected strictly

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Speaker 1: by popular vote. It's gonna be very difficult because you

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Speaker 1: would need either a constitutional amendment, which requires three quarters

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Speaker 1: of the states to certify in two thirds of each

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Speaker 1: House of Congress UM, or you would have to do

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Speaker 1: this work around plan that some people have been floating

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Speaker 1: called the National Popular Vote Compact, and actually ten states

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Speaker 1: plus DC have passed this into their laws to basically

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Speaker 1: say that regardless of who wins their own state, they'll

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Speaker 1: have their electors vote for the winner of the National

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Speaker 1: Popular Vote. UM. That plan doesn't take effect, however, until

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Speaker 1: enough states have ratified it to equal two in seventy

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Speaker 1: electoral college votes, so there's still more states that need

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Speaker 1: to pass it, and then there's some significant concerns about

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Speaker 1: the constitutionality of that plan, with each individual state kind

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Speaker 1: of changing the rules to say that they're going to

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Speaker 1: award their electoral College votes to the national popular vote winner.

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Speaker 1: For a practical standpoint, I think what it will take

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Speaker 1: is a UM Republican candidate winning the electoral College but

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Speaker 1: losing the popular vote, and then you'd have pushed on

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Speaker 1: both sides. As the stands, however, you know, Democrats have

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Speaker 1: won the popular vote but last the electoral college and

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Speaker 1: two of the past five presidential elections. Thanks very interesting

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Speaker 1: and uh, we'll look forward to to the recount and

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Speaker 1: talking to you again. That's Josh Douglas, professor at the

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Speaker 1: University of Kentucky. We're talking about the recount here and

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Speaker 1: the possibility of the doing a way of electoral college,

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Speaker 1: which seems as if it's quite far away. Coming up

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Law. Is literacy a fundamental unto right under

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Speaker 1: our Constitution? The State of Michigan wants a federal judge

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Speaker 1: to dismiss a lawsuit seeking to establish a constitutional right

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Speaker 1: to literacy. I'm June Grosso with Gregg Store and Michael Best.

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Speaker 1: That's coming up on Bloomberg Law. This is Bloomberg