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Speaker 1: If you're about to make a change in your life

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Speaker 1: and you feel uncomfortable, that's the best feeling you can have.

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Speaker 2: Because for the first time in your life, you'll make

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Speaker 2: a new decision that's going to be best for you

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Speaker 2: and not what somebody told you to do. And that's

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Speaker 2: when all bets are off.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Money Making Conversation Masterclass. I'm your host, Rashwan MacDonald.

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Speaker 2: Our theme is.

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Speaker 1: There's no perfect time to start following your dreams. I

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Speaker 1: recognize that we all have different definitions of success. For

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Speaker 1: you and maybe the side of your HM, it's time

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Speaker 1: to stop reading other people's success stories to start living

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Speaker 1: your own keep winning. My next guest is Craig Melvin.

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Speaker 1: He's the co host of The Today's Show and the

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Speaker 1: author of the book Pops Learning to Be a Son

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Speaker 1: and a Father. You may know craigge and the ward

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Speaker 1: winning news anchor. As I said earlier on The Today Show.

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Speaker 1: You also have seen him on MSNBC Live and a

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Speaker 1: host of Dayline. He's on the show discussed his book,

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Speaker 1: Pops Learning to Be a Son and the Father.

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Speaker 2: It's the story of all the father figures.

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Speaker 1: In Crigg's life and that includes inspiring men from his

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Speaker 1: program or his series called Dad's Got this series on.

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Speaker 2: NBC News Today.

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Speaker 1: These experiences and encounters of shapes Crig's understanding of his

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Speaker 1: own role as a dad. And I'm sure I can

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Speaker 1: be related. We have a nice conversation. He has two

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Speaker 1: young children. Please welcome the money making conversation, my man,

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Speaker 1: Craig Milvin.

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Speaker 3: How you doing, Craig Sean, I'm well, I'm well. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for having me. Always enjoy your conversation.

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Speaker 3: So honored to be a part of what.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Memria A Southern boy South Carolina, Okay.

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Speaker 1: You know you know when I see people on TV

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Speaker 1: and you're so articulate, There are no y'alls, there are

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Speaker 1: no access.

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Speaker 2: How does a man come straight out of club?

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Speaker 3: You?

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Speaker 1: And I know color because Steve Harvey and I used

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Speaker 1: to go down a lot performing at the Town Center,

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Speaker 1: selling that place out all the time. So I'm very

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Speaker 1: familiar with South Carolina, Charleston, that whole low country. There's

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Speaker 1: no low country in your tone? What's going on here?

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Speaker 1: How you break that low country accent? Low cut your accent?

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Speaker 4: It's funny because I never had it.

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Speaker 3: My mom, you'll appreciate this growing up in Houston the

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Speaker 3: way that you grew up. My mom grew up in

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Speaker 3: the projects and first in the family to go to

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Speaker 3: college and first in the family to get a graduate degree.

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Speaker 4: So when we came along.

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Speaker 3: She wanted to expose us to things and places that

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Speaker 3: she had not been exposed to. And consequently, I think

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Speaker 3: I was probably fourteen or fifteen, and she had us

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Speaker 3: take part in these oratorical contests, right, and that was

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Speaker 3: kind of how it started.

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Speaker 4: So I took I took.

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Speaker 3: Some public speaking classes, and then these oratorical contests, and

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Speaker 3: then the next thing you knew, I had what they

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Speaker 3: what they liked to call in the business a nondescript dialect.

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Speaker 3: You can't really tell based on listening to me where

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Speaker 3: I'm from.

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Speaker 4: It's a blessing. Now.

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Speaker 3: When I was growing up, it was always he's talking white.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, he he talks like a white boy. So it's

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Speaker 4: you know, it's it was the curse. Now it's a blessing.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew in my

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Speaker 1: middle school.

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Speaker 4: I remember my.

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Speaker 1: Teacher used to always ask me to read, used to

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Speaker 1: always ask me to read, and you know, people talk

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Speaker 1: about bullying, and you know, when you people are talking

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Speaker 1: about they call you snowflake. That was formal bully and

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Speaker 1: then so it's popularized now because people are willing to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. But we all grew up in some

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Speaker 1: form of physical or mental abuse from high school kids

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Speaker 1: or people in the neighborhood. And my I remember this,

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Speaker 1: this this girl. She made such a big deal that

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Speaker 1: I was always asked to read that. It almost, I

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Speaker 1: have to say, traumatized me because I went exactly the opposite.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk, I wanted to say, ain't I

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Speaker 1: wanted to have I wanted to slur my words.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to fit in. And so with you.

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Speaker 1: Now, I bring that story up because you talk about

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Speaker 1: because you was hit with it. You was hit, you know,

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Speaker 1: talking white, didn't want to act white. You're calling snowflake?

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Speaker 1: What kept you focused? What kept you from from veering

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Speaker 1: off like I veered off? I veered off and I said, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: I want to fit in and not be me.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think it was And I wrote about

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Speaker 4: in the book. My mother. My mother really racheant.

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Speaker 3: I mean she she she kept us on the straight

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Speaker 3: and narrow.

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Speaker 4: At the time, we resented the strictness.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my mom she knew all of our friends, right,

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Speaker 3: and she knew all of the parents. We weren't allowed

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Speaker 3: to stay out past you know, during the week maybe

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Speaker 3: nine o'clock, maybe on the weekends when kids were going

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Speaker 3: to parties and having fun. I was doing oratorical contests

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Speaker 3: and activities.

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Speaker 4: And I went to in high school.

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Speaker 3: I think I probably went to maybe three high school

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Speaker 3: football games on Friday night.

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Speaker 4: I just I didn't. I grew up on a very

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Speaker 4: tight leash.

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Speaker 3: Right, And and part of it was my mother over

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Speaker 3: compensating for my father not being the kind of dad.

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Speaker 4: That he should have been.

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Speaker 3: But part of it was his mom knew. She knew

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Speaker 3: back then, I think kind of what it took. She

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Speaker 3: was a school teacher, then she went into an administration.

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Speaker 3: She knew what it took to shape and mold young

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Speaker 3: black boys, especially right, And.

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Speaker 4: That was it.

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Speaker 3: Had it not been for her, had I grown up

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Speaker 3: in another house, we wouldn't be.

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Speaker 4: Having this conversation right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, in writing your book, you know the

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Speaker 1: book we're talking for talking to interviewing Craig Melvin, his

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Speaker 1: book Pops, Learning to Be a Son and a Father.

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Speaker 1: Is it because the fact that your father wasn't there

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Speaker 1: that she maybe overcompensated and wanted to make sure you

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Speaker 1: didn't you had a better life, or you pursued the

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Speaker 1: options even though I knew she went to college and

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Speaker 1: think of the age of twenty two is when she

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Speaker 1: became pregnant with you. But talk about that in the

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Speaker 1: middle is because as we talk about trying to shape

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Speaker 1: you because of the fact that you've been shaped by

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially the stories we gon't talk

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Speaker 1: about the presidentcident when it was our camp grades. How

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Speaker 1: that really kind of like started you in this direction

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Speaker 1: of humanizing all men, actually men who are incocelreaty. Talk

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Speaker 1: about your mom in her role versus your dad role

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Speaker 1: because you mentioned it just a little bit, but that

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Speaker 1: centers around us getting to the story and your father

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Speaker 1: changed his life at the age of sixty seven.

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Speaker 3: Mom, Yeah, Mom, Mom, Mom, Ha had to play the

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Speaker 3: role of mom and dad for the better part of

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Speaker 3: my childhood. It was it was it was a role

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Speaker 3: that she was you know, she was unfortunately well prepared

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Speaker 3: for it because she ended up she had to take

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Speaker 3: care of her three younger siblings when she was in

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Speaker 3: college and her father skipped out of the family. Ended

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Speaker 3: up essentially dying on the streets and squalor.

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Speaker 4: But no a mom.

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Speaker 3: Because my father was not physically present as often as

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Speaker 3: I would have liked, and my younger brother would have

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Speaker 3: liked my older brother as well.

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Speaker 4: Mom stepped in to fill the gap. She filled, She

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Speaker 4: filled the boy.

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Speaker 3: And not just not just being present in the sense

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Speaker 3: of searing a little aims or soccer games or concerts.

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Speaker 3: Not just physically present, but emotionally present, right, spiritually present.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the relationship that I have with God is

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Speaker 3: because of my mother's relationship with God.

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Speaker 4: So it was it was divine intervention. You know.

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Speaker 3: Had I had any other mother, things would not have

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Speaker 3: gone the way.

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Speaker 4: That they did.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's also and I write about in

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Speaker 3: the book, as you know, and I do appreciate the

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Speaker 3: fact that you read the book. You'd be surprised. And

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Speaker 3: how often we talk to people about books and they

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Speaker 3: haven't read word one, but I can tell you read

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Speaker 3: the whole thing. And I write about in the book.

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Speaker 4: My father.

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Speaker 3: I asked him doing the course of my interviews with

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Speaker 3: him for the book, I said, Pops, what was the

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Speaker 3: most money you ever wasted? Without missing a beat, he

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Speaker 3: said it was about fifteen hundred dollars back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six, said there was a lot of money back then,

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Speaker 3: would you spend that money on?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: He said, that's how much he has to put my

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Speaker 3: daddy in the ground.

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Speaker 4: And in that moment.

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Speaker 3: I realized that while I had been frustrated by the

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Speaker 3: lack of relationship I had with my dad, it was

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Speaker 3: exponentially better than the relationship he had with his own father. Right,

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Speaker 3: he knew who his dad was until he was almost

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Speaker 3: a teenager. So it was it was wholly unrealistic of

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Speaker 3: me to expect him to be the kind of dad

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Speaker 3: that I had come to idolize. He couldn't be it

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Speaker 3: because he hadn't seen it. And you can't be something

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Speaker 3: stretch that. It's really hard to be something, yes, if

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Speaker 3: you if you haven't seen it, if you haven't been

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Speaker 3: exposed to it.

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Speaker 4: So that's what my dad was up against.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know when I when I read the book,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know I heard the shotgun house. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in there. I was born in the

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Speaker 1: shotgun house, two bedroom shotgun house. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: if you listen to the shotgun house, open to the

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Speaker 1: front door, shoot the gun out the shotgun out through

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Speaker 1: the go out the front, back door. Don't hit anything

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Speaker 1: that's a shotgun. Okay, you referenced big feet. Grew up

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Speaker 1: with big feast. My man, Hey, I went touching, but

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Speaker 1: big feasts part.

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Speaker 2: Of my lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: And so that's the Southern I'm from Houston, Texas, I'm

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Speaker 1: from the South.

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Speaker 2: It was it was a lifestyle that was normal to me.

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Speaker 1: But it was also a community lifestyle of people taking

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Speaker 1: care of each other.

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Speaker 2: And that was really important.

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Speaker 1: Not only your dad, even though there were some missteps,

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Speaker 1: there were still people there to take care of him,

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Speaker 1: you know, to make sure he was focused, to shout

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Speaker 1: at him as he.

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Speaker 2: Became an adult. There were people in the community.

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Speaker 1: That's really important in this book that no matter what,

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Speaker 1: there is some form of family tied to your story,

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Speaker 1: and the people in your life talk about that.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's it's it's funny because long before people

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Speaker 3: started talking about it taking a village, uh to rear

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Speaker 3: a child, I had a village. You know, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: called that back back in the eighties in South Carolina,

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Speaker 3: back in the eighties nineties when I grew up and

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Speaker 3: I had a village, and and and yes, there were

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Speaker 3: a number of men who played the role of dad

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Speaker 3: alone the way my uncle James, my uncle Jake, my

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Speaker 3: uncle Frank. But there were also a lot of women

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Speaker 3: that that that played the part as well. I was disciplined,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's the politically correct term.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 3: I was disciplined by more women growing up than men,

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Speaker 3: whether it's my mom or or one of my aunts

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Speaker 3: and my grandma. I spent a lot of time with

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Speaker 3: my two grandmothers growing up, and they really shaped me

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Speaker 3: in myriad ways that I didn't fully appreciate until.

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Speaker 4: I was older. But and then after that, I had

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Speaker 4: coaches along the way.

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Speaker 3: I always God always blessed me with with with people

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Speaker 3: along the road, right Uh that that gave me a

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Speaker 3: little part of something that I was. I was able

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Speaker 3: to tape and build on. It's difficult for young black

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Speaker 3: men especially, it's difficult to to learn how to carry

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Speaker 3: yourself in this world.

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Speaker 4: With without examples of it.

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Speaker 3: And I had lots of examples thankfully along the way.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is, you know, Sean, a lot of

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Speaker 3: kids don't have that. A lot of kids don't they

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Speaker 3: just you know, through no phone of their own mind.

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Speaker 3: You they don't have a mother or a father, or

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Speaker 3: an uncle or an aunt to take their hand on

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Speaker 3: this journey of life. And so they end up finding

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Speaker 3: role models that they should not be held out or

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Speaker 3: that should not.

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Speaker 4: Be on a pedele stale, and they begin to emulate them.

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Speaker 1: You know, the thing I really like about your book

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Speaker 1: is that sometimes because my father was a truck driver,

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Speaker 1: you know, so you know when he wasn't driving trucks,

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Speaker 1: you know he was he was, he wasn't really connected

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Speaker 1: to me. I can I can tell you he was

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Speaker 1: my father. I can tell you that my mom was

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Speaker 1: there for me. My mom pushed me. My mom always

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Speaker 1: felt that could be somebody special in life. When your

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Speaker 1: father showed up for your ball game, that memory, you

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Speaker 1: don't know if you got to hit a home runner,

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Speaker 1: got struck out every time you went up the bat,

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Speaker 1: but you remember that moment.

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Speaker 2: And then when your mom rescued you when you thought

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Speaker 2: you had an entered early fatherhood.

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Speaker 1: You know, those are two moments that really I bring

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Speaker 1: up those two moments prayer, because despite of all the

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Speaker 1: things we do in our life, there are always memories

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Speaker 1: that really.

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Speaker 2: Some haunt people, some inspire people.

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Speaker 1: Your father showing up for your game and your mom

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Speaker 1: I basically come into the rescue because she did something

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Speaker 1: that enabled you to relax. Talk about those two key

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Speaker 1: moments of parenting. Even though your father wasn't there, that

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Speaker 1: was a key parenting moment that he provided for you

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Speaker 1: that stays.

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Speaker 2: With you today.

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Speaker 1: It probably cares into your parenting you with your children today,

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Speaker 1: and then your mom being there for you at a

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Speaker 1: moment of doubt for fear. But both of them were

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Speaker 1: there at different times.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're talking about the part of my book

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Speaker 3: where I am I almost became a teenage father. I

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Speaker 3: was almost a statistic at the age of fourteen. No less,

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Speaker 3: I made a.

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Speaker 4: Bad choice. I made a bad choice.

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Speaker 3: And you know what I write about it because I

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Speaker 3: wrote about it because I wanted people to understand.

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Speaker 4: There but for the grace of God go I.

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Speaker 3: And I think a lot of folks can relate to

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Speaker 3: this idea that you know, there's that night or sometimes

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Speaker 3: that day, but usually it's that night where you went left,

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Speaker 3: but you could have gone right, right right, and had

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Speaker 3: you made a different decision, it would have altered the

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Speaker 3: course of your life in a dramatic way.

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Speaker 4: That almost happened to me.

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Speaker 3: I got lucky and at that point in my life,

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Speaker 3: I was, I didn't have much of a relationship with

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Speaker 3: my father.

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Speaker 4: I was I was afraid of my mother.

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Speaker 3: Uh, definitely afraid, so I couldn't talk to her about it.

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Speaker 3: And it was a situation where you know, this young

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Speaker 3: lady was convinced she was pregnant, and I, like, I

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Speaker 3: had to, I had to do something.

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Speaker 5: Please don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more

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Speaker 5: money Making Conversations Masterclass. Welcome back to the Money Making

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00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 5: Conversations Masterclass hosted by Rashaan MacDonald. Money Making Conversations Masterclass

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00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 5: continues online at Moneymakingconversations dot com and follow money Making

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Speaker 5: Conversations Masterclass on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

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Speaker 3: This was not one of those situations where in action

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Speaker 3: was an option, right, And I write in the book

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Speaker 3: about how I went to my aunt, and it was

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Speaker 3: my aunt that finally convinced me that I had no

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Speaker 3: choice but to talk to my mother.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: But my mom has always been long before we started

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Speaker 3: calling people fixers, my mom was a fixer, like it was.

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Speaker 4: It was.

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Speaker 3: That obviously was an extreme example, but there were so

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Speaker 3: many other times in my life where I thought I

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Speaker 3: was out of option. I didn't know what I was

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Speaker 3: going to do, and I prayed to God and put

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Speaker 3: trust in Betty Joe Melvin and and Betty Joe Melvin

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Speaker 3: always came through and still does now.

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Speaker 4: Mind you in a different way, my dad.

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Speaker 3: You know, I wrote about that, that that part in

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Speaker 3: the book with Shan where he showed up at my

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Speaker 3: little league game, and the memory stayed with me because

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Speaker 3: it was so rare to that point my dad. And

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Speaker 3: again now looking back on it, knowing what we know

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Speaker 3: about addiction, about it being a disease and not a weakness,

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Speaker 3: I understand why he wasn't there. I understand why he

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Speaker 3: had walled himself off from our family and society at large.

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Speaker 4: But back then I was a kid, you know.

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Speaker 3: I was a kid who wanted my dad to be

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Speaker 3: proud of me and see me, uh and certainly watched

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Speaker 3: watch my little league games.

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Speaker 4: And so when he showed.

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Speaker 3: Up that evening and I I saw him down the

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Speaker 3: third baseline there on the fence, it's a memory that

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Speaker 3: stayed with me because it was so rare. That being said,

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Speaker 3: now he's everywhere, like you know, he was up two

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Speaker 3: weeks ago my son had a soccer game.

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Speaker 4: My dad was right there with.

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Speaker 3: Me on the sideline, and thirty seconds in, my boy

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Speaker 3: hadn't scored a goal all season, thirty seconds in, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble,

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Speaker 3: shoot score first goal of the game, and me and

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Speaker 3: my pops are high fiven like he had just won

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Speaker 3: a green jacket at Augusta.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you know it was. The book is an emotional book.

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Speaker 1: And I would say emotional because I told people when

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Speaker 1: I get a book like this, after slow read it,

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Speaker 1: because sometime it they hit points where I go, I'm

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Speaker 1: about to about to go there, I'm not let me.

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Speaker 2: Finish this moment.

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Speaker 1: And because I remember a moment with my dad nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two when I owned the comedy club and my

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Speaker 1: dad had never ever been to anything I've been, and

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Speaker 1: he just showed up at the comedy club and uh,

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Speaker 1: it was sold out and I.

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Speaker 2: Looked at the lobbaries.

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Speaker 4: What you're doing here?

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Speaker 3: Dad?

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Speaker 2: He goes, I come to see my son.

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Speaker 4: And he looked around.

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Speaker 1: He looked, wow, this you this you this you? And

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Speaker 1: I went, yes, sir, yes, sir, you know, because I

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Speaker 1: always said certainly my dad, and uh and he said

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Speaker 1: he said, he said, I'm proud of your son, and

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Speaker 1: and and like I said, this is because that's what

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Speaker 1: the book did to me as a dad. Because when

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Speaker 1: you start talking about an incarceration, and you talked about

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Speaker 1: you talk, you said earlier, right turn, left, turn those turns.

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Speaker 1: I always say that. When I was in college, you

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Speaker 1: know you you played the fraternity. I pledged to make

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Speaker 1: us I fire, and you always do stupid things. I

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Speaker 1: remember that the big brothers said, we want some plants. Well,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have no money, and so I remember this

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Speaker 1: was this giant open field where they had plants back

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Speaker 1: in the day, and rem lying, brothers, we went and

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Speaker 1: stole these plants.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you.

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Speaker 1: Look back on the Craig from the freeway, you would

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Speaker 1: have seen us running across this field with these plants.

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Speaker 2: It's okay.

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Speaker 1: So anybody could have went, what are those black dudes

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Speaker 1: boys doing.

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Speaker 2: Running with all these giant plants.

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Speaker 1: And I had a little Fiat X one nine, which

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Speaker 1: is a two seater, and the truck was in the front,

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Speaker 1: so I had to put the plants in the front,

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Speaker 1: and it were blacking.

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Speaker 4: My wis sealed.

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Speaker 1: So along the way I could have stopped and stopped

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Speaker 1: by the police and been incarcerated, and my life could

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Speaker 1: have changed on that right turn left turn that you

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Speaker 1: were talking about earlier.

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Speaker 2: You are meeting men who've done.

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Speaker 1: Something far worse than what I've talked about, but they

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Speaker 1: have made a mistake. And sometimes because they made a mistake,

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Speaker 1: we don't give them a second chance because we feel

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Speaker 1: that they are unworthy of that second chance. And then

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Speaker 1: in your book you talk about guess what they are

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Speaker 1: fathers too. Let's talk about that journey of you doing

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Speaker 1: a story I think basically changed your life.

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Speaker 2: And it started with Camp Grace.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was one of the most impactful stories I've

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Speaker 4: ever done.

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Speaker 3: There's a and I don't even remember how we found

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Speaker 3: out about this camp, but I was I'll be reading

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Speaker 3: some article in an obscure publication about this summer camp

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Speaker 3: at a maximum security prison in California. Salinas State Valley

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Speaker 3: Prison is the name of the facility, and for one

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Speaker 3: week every summer they bring in about a dozen or

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Speaker 3: so kids to basically have a camp experience with their dads.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, arts and crafts, and they play games,

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Speaker 3: and they sing songs and they.

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Speaker 4: Do all this stuff that they would do at a camp.

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Speaker 3: And these kids are between the ages of you know,

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Speaker 3: seven or eight and fifteen or sixteen, and the guys

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Speaker 3: who are part of the program have to exhibit good

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Speaker 3: behavior for a full year.

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Speaker 4: The camp is a it is a privilege.

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Speaker 3: And I went out and spent some time talking to

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Speaker 3: these guys and it ended up being just an emotional

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Speaker 3: day because these these are man.

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Speaker 4: First of all, most of them are not going to

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Speaker 4: be getting out of prison.

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Speaker 3: I mean they've some of them have been convicted of

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Speaker 3: doing some pretty heinous things. But the two women that

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Speaker 3: started the camp, both of their husbands were incarcerated and

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Speaker 3: consequently weren't.

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Speaker 4: Really a part of the child's lives.

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Speaker 3: They would get the occasional visit, you know, on the

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Speaker 3: weekend and you've got the glass, but they weren't able

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Speaker 3: to really be a part of the child's lives. So

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00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,679
Speaker 3: they came out the side there for a camp and

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Speaker 3: I talked to one of the guys out there, and

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Speaker 3: I asked them the question I knew a lot of

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Speaker 3: people were going to be asking when they watched or

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00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 3: read the story.

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Speaker 4: How can someone.

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Speaker 3: Accused of some of the things these guys were accused of.

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Speaker 3: How in what universe do they deserve the right to

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Speaker 3: spend time with the child. Yes, and without missing a beat,

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Speaker 3: he said to me, tears in his eyes.

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Speaker 4: They be right.

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Speaker 3: I may not deserve it, but you know what, crag

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Speaker 3: my kids do. My kids deserve to know their father.

448
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 3: They didn't do anything wrong, they didn't make any bad choices.

449
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 4: And his larger point, and I think this was just

450
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 4: as valid.

451
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 3: If we're serious about stopping the prison pipeline that we

452
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,920
Speaker 3: always talk about, then we need to make sure that

453
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 3: kids of incarcerated individuals have relationships with them. He spent

454
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 3: a fair amount of his time talking to his daughter

455
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 3: about choices, making good choices, not ending up where he

456
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 3: ended up. It's a fantastic program, and it moved me.

457
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 3: It also moved me Sean because my grandmother, and it's

458
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 3: the first line in the book. Not to give away

459
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: too much, but you know my grandmother. Now, when I

460
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 3: knew her, she was going to church, at church, coming

461
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 3: home from church like she she only loved the Lord.

462
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 3: But apparently long before I came along.

463
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: Just say she's a bootlegger. I won't give away no

464
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 1: more than that. Just say she a boot leg. I

465
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 1: don't want to give away the earther part Okay, she

466
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 1: a bootlegger.

467
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: She was a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger. And and

468
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 4: and got a second chance, Yes he did. And had

469
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 4: she not gotten.

470
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: A second chance, uh, who's to say whether I would

471
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: be here right now, you know.

472
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: But here's the thing I want to point out about.

473
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: That now his grandmother was in the same jail that

474
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart was in. So she got how many chances

475
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 1: that she's got, Okay, but in the same facility now.

476
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: And so so when I when I when I read

477
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 1: the book and and and and I'm and it's like

478
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: I say, it's an.

479
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: Emotional journey because it's your story.

480
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: But it's a relatable story because I remember when my

481
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: younger brother was incarcerated in California and uh glass talking

482
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: and uh and I was in tears and and and

483
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: he told me.

484
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: He couldn't cry. He's Irish. I can't cry. I can't.

485
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: They can't, he said, I can't. And my nickname is Ricky. Ricky,

486
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: I can't cry because they see me crying out here.

487
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: I pay a price when I go back inside. And

488
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: in that book, you know, gentlemen, you interview and he said, look,

489
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: he said, thank god I have a seal by myself

490
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: because now I can cry. And so I love the

491
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: fact that you were humanizing people because we see these

492
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: we see this, we see the violent size, and nobody's

493
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: trying to downplay that.

494
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 2: But we have made mistakes.

495
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: There are people on the other side of this that

496
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: have to deal with the emotion that these are kids,

497
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: And like one of them said, look, it's all right

498
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: early on when you plan cards and you plan catch,

499
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: but when it becomes teens, the conversation becomes different.

500
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: And that's what fatherhood.

501
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: Is all about, which leads to your whole life of

502
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: being a father, being connected to your dad, and now

503
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: being a present day father.

504
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, Greg.

505
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: You know, I think that I think that you can

506
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 3: be shaped by negative examples, Yes, just as much as

507
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 3: you can be shaped by positive examples. In fact, I

508
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 3: think in some instances, maybe even more so.

509
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 4: So.

510
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: You know, growing up, I didn't know the kind of

511
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: man that I wanted to be. I didn't certainly know

512
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 3: the kind of father that I wanted to be. But

513
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 3: up until a few years ago, I knew I didn't

514
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: want to be anything of anything like my dad.

515
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: Yes, and and and.

516
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: That was what what motivated me personally and professionally, probably

517
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: to a certain extent now that that I'm talking about it.

518
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: But no, it's it's it's funny because I have to

519
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: remind my kids sometimes and I have a job and

520
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 3: and and consequently I cannot be at their beck and

521
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: call uh day and night, because you know, when my

522
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: dad was there when we were younger, it was it

523
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 3: was big, like it was a wedding or funeral or

524
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: graduation or that that Little League game that I write

525
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 3: about that I remember because it was so weird. Dad

526
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 3: didn't show up for stuff, in part because he worked

527
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 3: third shift at the post office, but in larger part

528
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: because because of the addiction issues that he had.

529
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 2: So as a.

530
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 4: Result, I've gone to the other end of the spectrum.

531
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 4: So if you know, I'm there for.

532
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: Soccer games and my daughter had a gymnastics recital last

533
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 3: Sunday morning, and some I'm physically present as often as

534
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: in as much as I can to do you know,

535
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: pick I do school pick up, and I try to

536
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 3: do it all because you know, my dad didn't do

537
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: any of it. Now, now, the problem that that that

538
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: you create when you do that, and it took me

539
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 3: a while to figure this out, I've created expectations. Yes,

540
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: so if I'm not there to go, Daddy's got to

541
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: travel for work. Well, Daddy, why can't you write can

542
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: you take a later flight? And me can you go tomorrow?

543
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: Enough had to say it a few times. You know

544
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: that it's the job that pays for all of this.

545
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 3: You don't get to go to dance or you don't

546
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: get to go to soccer if daddy's not hopping on playing.

547
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 3: So that that's the that's the that's the unfortunate part.

548
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: But they're you know, they're starting to understand. But it's

549
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: funny as you become a parent, how you at some

550
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 3: point become you become the kind of for me at least,

551
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: the kind of father that I used to mock. Yes,

552
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: hate it with My dad would talk about, you know

553
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: how much something costs.

554
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 4: You don't have money for this.

555
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: And.

556
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: When we were younger, we didn't like he wasn't lying,

557
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: Like we knew we didn't have a lot of money.

558
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 4: We knew we had enough.

559
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: With my kids, you know, I've said a few times

560
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 3: and we can't afford this, And myself, I'm missing the

561
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 3: beato say yes we can, you can, and I'm like

562
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: and then you then you find yourself trying to come

563
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: up with a new excuse like, ah, well maybe we

564
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: can't afford it, but that we don't need it.

565
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 4: You don't need.

566
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 2: That, right right right?

567
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: You know, So it's hard.

568
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 2: I know we're about to wrap up.

569
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: I want to bring up a very a fun moment

570
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: as a parent, and I want to share with you

571
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: because you wrote about it when your son climbed into bed,

572
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: and you know, and then your kids when they sleep.

573
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: If you don't have kids children of you got a

574
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: very young child, when they climb in the bed, they

575
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: forget you in bed. They kids are the worst sleepers

576
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: in the world, especially when they get that six to

577
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: ten years of age. They were sleep And so when

578
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: you said that in the book, you said you may

579
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: miss that. I remember I talked to my daughter when

580
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: she was like seventeen. I said, hey, want your hop

581
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: in bed, we watch the TV.

582
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: Shit what you're talking about?

583
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 4: I said, you.

584
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 6: Know, can we not watch a TV? Can we not

585
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 6: watch TV together? Remember we used to go I don't

586
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 6: do that. No more, Dad, No, no, we're not doing that.

587
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 6: So I would tell you this, Greg. That moment brought.

588
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: Laughter to me. It brought back memories as your book.

589
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: You know, they're amazingly good book, Pops, Learning to be

590
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: a Son and a Father.

591
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: Man, it's a great read.

592
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: Like I said, it slowed me when I said the

593
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: word slowed me because I was becoming emotional because, like

594
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: I said, my father was a beer drinker.

595
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: My father worked hard as a truck driver. My father,

596
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: like I said, was he in my life? I don't know?

597
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 2: But did he shape me to be the man I

598
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: am today?

599
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: Yes he did because he had a role in it

600
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: and that that role has made me to be the

601
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: man I am. I'd like to believe I'm a good

602
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: parent to my daughter, a good husband to my wife.

603
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 2: And uh, those are the things that the stories that you.

604
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: Tell out of this book, from the incarcerated to individuals

605
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: who raised you as a family, the community, and whether

606
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: teachers who shaped you as third grade, teachers who shaped.

607
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: You as you go through life and you went.

608
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: To school and want they want to shame your uncle

609
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: where you didn't pledge cap aside, But it was all

610
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: good man.

611
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: I love your book, Craig. I want to appreciate you

612
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: for putting it out there.

613
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 4: Man, thank you, thank you for your time. I've enjoyed

614
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 4: this conversation. You're very good at what you do. Thank

615
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 4: you for having me, Loko. We talked so many all right,

616
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: bye bye.

617
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: If you want to see or hear in my interviews

618
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: a money Making Conversation, please go to money Making Conversation

619
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: dot com.

620
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: I'm Ushan McDonald. I am your host.

621
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you for joining us for this edition

622
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 5: of money Making Conversations Masterclass. Money Making Conversations Masterclass with

623
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 5: rough Shan McDonald is produced by thirty eight fifteen Media Inc.

624
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 5: More information about thirty eight fifteen Media Inc. Is available

625
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 5: at thirty eight fifteen media dot com. And always remember

626
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 5: to lead with your gifts