WEBVTT - Paul Simon 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:24.516 Pushkin. Paul Simon's one of the greatest living songwriters. Since 0:00:24.516 --> 0:00:28.196 debuted with Art Garfunkel in nineteen fifty seven, Paul's written 0:00:28.236 --> 0:00:32.916 countless songs that are quintessential to the American psyche. This year, 0:00:32.916 --> 0:00:35.836 at eighty one years old, he's released the latest edition 0:00:35.996 --> 0:00:40.396 to his beloved catalog Seven Psalms, to an outpouring of 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:44.636 critical acclaim. In twenty twenty one, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce 0:00:44.676 --> 0:00:49.036 Headlam released the audio original Miracle and Wonder Conversations with 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:53.756 Paul Simon. It's an intimate look into Simon's songwriting, alongside 0:00:53.876 --> 0:00:57.516 never before heard live studio versions of hits including The Boxer, 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:01.916 The Sound of Silence, and of course Graceland. If you 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:04.836 haven't listened to Miracle and Wonder, I highly recommend checking 0:01:04.876 --> 0:01:08.836 it out. It's available on Audible and at Pushkin dot FM. 0:01:09.276 --> 0:01:12.516 This fall, at Pushkin will be releasing an updated version 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:15.956 of the audiobook with a brand new chapter featuring even 0:01:16.036 --> 0:01:19.476 more from Malcolm and Paul's newly recorded deep dive into 0:01:19.516 --> 0:01:23.716 Seven Psalms. To celebrate this newest chapter in Paul Simon's 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:26.676 sixty five year career and the latest edition to Miracle 0:01:26.716 --> 0:01:30.196 and wonder. On today's episode of Broken Record, Malcolm Gladwell 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:33.236 sits back down with Paul to discuss the creation of 0:01:33.316 --> 0:01:37.476 his newest album. Paul explains why he Field's music reviews 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:39.996 are more about the writer than the piece of music 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:42.596 being critiqued, and he talks about why many of his 0:01:42.716 --> 0:01:46.956 lyrics take a more conversational bent. He also recalls how 0:01:46.996 --> 0:01:49.396 the title for his newest record came to him in 0:01:49.436 --> 0:01:52.756 a dream after he considered never writing another piece of 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:59.316 music again. This is Broken Record liner notes for the 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:04.436 digital age. I'm justin ritchman. Here's Malcolm Gladwell with Paul Simon. 0:02:05.516 --> 0:02:08.436 So how you been he this album? I was reading 0:02:08.436 --> 0:02:10.796 through the reviews. I was like, can I find a 0:02:10.796 --> 0:02:13.556 bad review? I can't find one. This has never happened. 0:02:13.556 --> 0:02:16.316 I'm so used to getting bad reviews myself that when 0:02:16.356 --> 0:02:18.956 someone like you like hit for the cycle on this 0:02:19.076 --> 0:02:20.716 is like, there's no. 0:02:20.556 --> 0:02:25.036 That's a great I like, I love all baseball metaphors. Well, 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:27.156 it's very pleasant to have a hit. 0:02:27.916 --> 0:02:28.116 You know. 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:31.916 I don't read reviews, so I didn't read any of them. 0:02:32.036 --> 0:02:35.316 I'll tell you they are one hundred percent. They are rhapsodic. 0:02:35.796 --> 0:02:39.476 You should read them. There's the fantastic. They're like, you know, if. 0:02:39.316 --> 0:02:42.436 I do read them, I will not be happy. The 0:02:42.516 --> 0:02:48.356 reviews are about the reviewer. Yeah, so number one, you 0:02:48.596 --> 0:02:55.716 you're getting an insight into somebody's ego, which is sort 0:02:55.716 --> 0:02:59.476 of private in a way. So I'm not really comfortable 0:02:59.476 --> 0:03:04.876 with that. Number Two, some people get what I'm doing 0:03:05.916 --> 0:03:09.716 and other people don't really get one what I'm doing. 0:03:10.236 --> 0:03:14.076 They still, evidently with these reviews, they still like it, 0:03:15.036 --> 0:03:17.756 maybe even like it a lot, but I don't. They 0:03:17.756 --> 0:03:24.556 don't go to the reasons that I put there. So, like, 0:03:24.596 --> 0:03:27.596 I'll give you an example of things that I've heard, 0:03:27.676 --> 0:03:32.876 because I haven't read any He's dealing with his mortality. 0:03:33.716 --> 0:03:36.516 I can understand that somebody would say it's not happens 0:03:36.516 --> 0:03:40.236 not to be the case. You know, the way that 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:44.516 I write, I would say from that they're probably mostly 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:49.596 going on the song. Wait. You know the way that 0:03:49.636 --> 0:03:56.636 I write is it's partly true personally, it's partly like 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:03.436 a wish that I have, It's partly other people's lives. 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:08.356 But it's a it's a character. Even though the character 0:04:08.556 --> 0:04:14.596 is me, it's not really me. It's a character. So 0:04:14.956 --> 0:04:21.516 that character is dealing with the issue of Mortality. That's 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:27.156 because the way that song was written maybe one of 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:31.396 the last or the last song. The reason that it's 0:04:31.436 --> 0:04:37.076 placed there is because that's a way to conclude the piece. 0:04:38.316 --> 0:04:45.396 So it's appropriate, but it's not consuming my time and thought. 0:04:45.516 --> 0:04:49.956 Of course, it's it's there, of course, but I'm not 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:53.796 getting something out that that I have to say. I'm 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:59.716 concluding this long piece in such a way that it 0:04:59.796 --> 0:05:02.636 feels hopefully that it feels satisfying. 0:05:03.436 --> 0:05:07.276 Did you right Weight, thinking that it was going to 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:08.476 be the final. 0:05:08.836 --> 0:05:11.596 Yeah, I wrote it as the final piece, so I 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:15.076 think it was either Weight or Trail of Volcanoes that 0:05:15.196 --> 0:05:18.596 was the final piece that I wrote. What happened with 0:05:18.676 --> 0:05:24.996 Trailer Volcanos was I had another song and it didn't 0:05:25.036 --> 0:05:29.396 fit anywhere, and so I said, I have to lose 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:34.196 this one. It does It's good. It was a guitar piece. 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:40.196 It wasn't a written song, but it didn't fit musically anywhere. 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:43.956 I just couldn't find its place. I was at that 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.716 point in the construction of the piece or the album 0:05:48.476 --> 0:05:56.236 where my craftsmanship and my editing is dictating what I'm doing. 0:05:57.356 --> 0:06:02.956 It says to me that is slowing everything down. No 0:06:02.996 --> 0:06:06.556 matter where you put it, and I'm looking for something 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:13.076 to continue the momentum, to get to the final lord 0:06:13.476 --> 0:06:16.876 and the conclusion. Even though I didn't know what the 0:06:16.916 --> 0:06:22.596 conclusion was at that point, I understood from years of 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:26.836 making records that it wasn't right for the set. So 0:06:26.956 --> 0:06:32.636 I tossed it out and I said, I need a 0:06:32.716 --> 0:06:37.876 piece that has more of a sense of rhythm than 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:41.836 the rest of the album, because the rest of the 0:06:41.876 --> 0:06:46.596 album is very free rhythmically. There's no drums, there's no bass, 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:52.676 but a Trail of Volcanoes comes from a loop a 0:06:52.716 --> 0:06:57.636 bell of bells, so it's got a real pulse to it. 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:00.476 Even though I don't keep the bells going all the time, 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:03.716 I remove them and bring them back. But that served 0:07:03.756 --> 0:07:07.276 a good purpose for where it was in the album, 0:07:08.156 --> 0:07:10.996 just in terms of of your ear, not in terms 0:07:11.076 --> 0:07:16.236 of subject matter. So that piece found was placed where 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:19.156 it is in the album for those reasons, and the 0:07:19.356 --> 0:07:25.276 end piece is there also as an end piece. And 0:07:25.316 --> 0:07:31.116 then from those two decisions, I then wrote wrote the lyrics. 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:34.116 I didn't know what I was going to write in 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:38.916 Trail of Volcanoes, which in a way you can tell 0:07:38.956 --> 0:07:43.116 from from the way it begins. Some of my songs 0:07:43.156 --> 0:07:50.276 begin very conversationally to me. That's if I had to 0:07:50.556 --> 0:07:53.076 look at some old song and tell you what was 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:55.996 I thinking, even if I couldn't remember it, I would say, oh, 0:07:56.036 --> 0:07:58.756 I didn't know what I was thinking. So I just 0:07:58.796 --> 0:08:04.716 began and Trail of Volcanoes. When I was young, I 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:07.756 carried my geto. You know, that's a simple sentence. I 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:10.476 don't know what the point of I don't know what 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:12.196 the point of the piece would be, but I did 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:17.076 have the line trail of volcanoes. It was in my notes. 0:08:18.316 --> 0:08:23.636 So that's what that song does. As it happens, it 0:08:23.716 --> 0:08:30.876 has an appropriate thought for the entire piece. But as 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:34.596 far as the ear goes, it's the repetitive rhythm that 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:39.436 gives the ear a sense of I don't know, hopefully, 0:08:39.876 --> 0:08:43.476 hopefully it gives it a pleasure after things have been 0:08:43.516 --> 0:08:48.716 sort of floating and not exactly a rhythmic, but not 0:08:48.836 --> 0:08:53.316 with a tight rhythm. Here's a loop and weight becomes. 0:08:54.676 --> 0:09:00.156 After these six songs, what subject would I be on? 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:08.396 And someone I played it for at that early stage said, 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:12.436 heard the first six and I just had the track 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:16.876 for the seventh, and said, hearing these first six, I 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:21.836 just feel like I really don't want to die, and 0:09:21.996 --> 0:09:27.356 there was the subject of wait, so anyway back to 0:09:27.436 --> 0:09:32.556 reviews and critics, that's how that came about. But if 0:09:32.596 --> 0:09:36.236 you were writing and saying, well, mortality is on his mind, 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:39.036 it's not wrong to say that, but it's I'm not 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:43.156 interested in as a thought because it's not actually what 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:45.996 I was thinking. What I was thinking was sort of 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:51.916 mundane compared to the idea of me contemplating my mortality. 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:56.276 I was constructing a piece. 0:09:57.076 --> 0:10:00.476 Yeah, go back a little bit. I was curious. The 0:10:00.556 --> 0:10:03.516 last record you had made prior to this was twenty sixteen, 0:10:04.236 --> 0:10:07.396 So this is the this is the longest break you 0:10:07.516 --> 0:10:13.076 took between right music, new songs, new songs in your life. 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:17.756 Yeah, it probably was when I stopped performing and said 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:21.836 I'm going to stop, which I think was in twenty eighteen. Yeah. 0:10:22.876 --> 0:10:26.276 One of my thoughts was, well, first of all, I thought, 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:29.556 this show that I'm doing, I've really taken it as 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:34.356 far as I can take it in terms of rethinking 0:10:35.436 --> 0:10:41.996 songs and arrangements and anything that I did to that 0:10:42.116 --> 0:10:45.716 show as it then existed, it really would be in 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:48.476 the danger zone of being real Coco, you know, just 0:10:48.516 --> 0:10:52.996 be adding little things. And because I thought it's really 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:56.756 right now, So I don't want to continue doing this 0:10:56.956 --> 0:11:01.596 because I'm not going to get to the nourishment of 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:06.956 rethinking songs and arrangements because they're really pretty well thought out. 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:09.356 And if I don't get that, then i'd I don't 0:11:09.436 --> 0:11:14.996 like performing because I'm bored. So I thought it's completed. 0:11:15.076 --> 0:11:19.996 Its cycle is completed. It's not a bad time to stop. 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:27.196 And as for writing, if I continued writing from the 0:11:27.236 --> 0:11:30.476 way that I wrote the last piece of original music, 0:11:30.556 --> 0:11:35.316 which was A Stranger to Stranger, I would be continuing 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:40.116 problem solving in a way that started when I began 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:43.836 to write when I was thirteen. So from the age 0:11:43.876 --> 0:11:48.716 of thirteen, when I wrote my first songs, my songwriting 0:11:48.796 --> 0:11:53.996 evolved in the way that the way my songwriting evolved. 0:11:55.116 --> 0:11:57.436 So if I think of it as problem solving, I 0:11:57.476 --> 0:12:01.356 would continue problem solving in the same way. And from that, 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:07.116 this is my internal conversation. I said, so I can 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:14.156 make an album that's as good as Stranger the Stranger again, 0:12:15.076 --> 0:12:19.156 and I thought that album was good, but I'm not 0:12:19.236 --> 0:12:25.196 really enticed to do that, so I'll just not do it. 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:30.036 I'll just stop, And if I want to find something 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:37.436 that's challenging, and that's new for me. The way to 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:42.076 do that is to shut everything down and begin again. 0:12:43.316 --> 0:12:46.276 That was my thought. I didn't then start to work 0:12:46.316 --> 0:12:50.676 on anything because time went by, and then I had 0:12:50.756 --> 0:12:54.716 this dream that said, oh, you were writing seven psalms 0:12:54.956 --> 0:13:00.316 or you should be writing seven psalms. So I began, 0:13:01.316 --> 0:13:04.156 you know, whether it was subconsciously or not, I don't 0:13:04.196 --> 0:13:07.316 know it. But I began to start from scratch again, 0:13:08.076 --> 0:13:11.796 picked up a guitar, and the wrote guitar pieces, and 0:13:13.156 --> 0:13:16.916 you know, got more thinking about how I played guitar, 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:22.676 and just I went back to what was the simplest way, 0:13:22.836 --> 0:13:26.956 and I started to build from there. After about a 0:13:27.116 --> 0:13:31.556 year of writing guitar pieces, words started to come also 0:13:32.036 --> 0:13:35.196 from dreams, which is unusual for me. I mean, it's 0:13:35.276 --> 0:13:37.116 it's happened in the past that I've thought of a 0:13:37.196 --> 0:13:41.636 line or two, but that's not usually the way I 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:44.436 The way I write this was this was unusual. 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:47.676 Do you remember can you even play for me the 0:13:47.716 --> 0:13:50.476 first little bit of music that got you going on this? 0:13:50.956 --> 0:13:54.076 Yeah, the first thing that I did was to play that, 0:13:54.636 --> 0:14:12.036 really the first song, that's where I had, and then 0:14:12.116 --> 0:14:15.276 I began to put Eventually it got into a pattern 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:15.876 which was. 0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:17.876 No. 0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:24.876 The first one was that was the first one. The 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:35.036 second pattern that I play is twice, so so the 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:48.676 first two patterns are The third pattern was another variation. 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:52.796 M h. 0:14:58.596 --> 0:15:05.196 Those four variations on the on that lick, they were 0:15:06.076 --> 0:15:08.516 necessitated by the lyrics that I was singing. 0:15:09.516 --> 0:15:10.636 Explain what you mean by that. 0:15:11.316 --> 0:15:15.676 The Lord is my engineer, I don't want. The Lord 0:15:15.756 --> 0:15:21.076 is my engineer, lost, my use and. 0:15:22.676 --> 0:15:27.556 Loss. The earth Lord is the earth ride on. 0:15:27.996 --> 0:15:32.316 So that's why the first is long. The second is 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:42.676 did dobby loss of face in the atmosphere, the path 0:15:42.756 --> 0:15:48.956 I slip and slide on. That's the conclusion of those things. 0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:53.156 So once I had written those words, I said, well, 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:54.956 the guitar part has to go this way. 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:59.836 Oh, I see. You begin with the guitar part, write 0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:02.796 the lyrics and then adapt. Then you start to Then 0:16:02.836 --> 0:16:04.636 you start and fiddle. 0:16:06.396 --> 0:16:11.996 You write something that's just comes to you for reasons 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:16.276 that you can't explain, and you start to think of 0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:21.556 what you might say over that, and when you find 0:16:22.236 --> 0:16:28.996 what you want to say, you modify the accompaniment so 0:16:29.036 --> 0:16:32.716 that it fits. Then it becomes a symmetrical pattern, and 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:38.196 that pattern is repeated throughout every time the Lord's section comes, 0:16:37.956 --> 0:16:39.556 that pattern is repeated. 0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:42.516 We're going to take a quick break and then come 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:49.956 back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. We're 0:16:49.956 --> 0:16:52.796 back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. 0:16:53.476 --> 0:16:56.516 Can you give me another example from of the kind 0:16:56.516 --> 0:16:59.876 of loop between the music and the lyrics that you 0:16:59.956 --> 0:17:01.596 were working on with it. 0:17:02.876 --> 0:17:08.796 Yeah. The process for me is a thought that comes 0:17:08.796 --> 0:17:13.716 from someplace that I have I don't know, just one 0:17:13.756 --> 0:17:18.356 second it's not there, the next second it's there. And 0:17:18.436 --> 0:17:22.476 with that piece of information, it then gets put into 0:17:23.716 --> 0:17:30.316 the pile of potentially to be edited that pile and 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:34.156 the words start to come and as if it was 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:38.156 as if you were sculpting a piece of wood or stone, 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:45.836 you slice away and chip away to find the right shape. 0:17:46.476 --> 0:17:49.076 And in the case of the Seven Psalms album, because 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:53.436 it's really a voice and guitar, even though there are 0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:57.236 a lot of other instruments augmenting the sound of the guitar, 0:17:57.436 --> 0:17:59.796 essentially what you're hearing is a voice and a guitar, 0:18:00.836 --> 0:18:03.796 which means that particular attention has to be paid to 0:18:04.716 --> 0:18:09.156 what the guitar is playing and the dynamics of the 0:18:09.196 --> 0:18:14.756 guitar the volume of you know how soft it gets, 0:18:15.676 --> 0:18:19.436 and because that's an acoustic guitar, just the way you 0:18:19.516 --> 0:18:27.116 play it automatically has in the nature of it is 0:18:27.116 --> 0:18:29.356 that some notes are going to be louder than others 0:18:29.396 --> 0:18:35.036 because of the way the guitar is built and just acoustics. 0:18:36.076 --> 0:18:40.156 So one of the things that happened in Seven Psalms 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:43.996 that was different from the other albums is that I 0:18:44.116 --> 0:18:48.276 really paid a lot of attention to making the notes, 0:18:48.316 --> 0:18:54.116 the individual notes of a piece be balanced and have 0:18:54.196 --> 0:18:57.796 a dynamic to them. So if one note stuck out 0:18:57.836 --> 0:19:01.116 in a way I didn't want, I could lower it 0:19:01.156 --> 0:19:05.076 in pro tools, or the opposite. If it was too 0:19:05.156 --> 0:19:08.676 soft and I needed it to punch more, I could 0:19:08.756 --> 0:19:13.516 raise it it. So one of the things that's unique 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:17.716 about Seven Psalms for me is that I'm treating the 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:23.036 guitar as an entire orchestra. I use the rhythm of 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:36.836 it that's partly drum. There's not drum there, and even 0:19:36.836 --> 0:19:43.876 when I play that, I'm muting it partly, whereas I'm 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:48.076 not muting this. So because it's just a guitar and 0:19:48.116 --> 0:19:52.996 a voice, I'm paying a lot of attention to what's 0:19:53.036 --> 0:19:57.316 going on with the guitar. And from that I'm adding 0:19:57.676 --> 0:20:04.156 these other percussion instruments, mostly bells, but gongs. I can 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:10.116 show you there's a bell. I don't know why this 0:20:10.276 --> 0:20:12.276 is called an elephant bell, but so here it is. 0:20:21.076 --> 0:20:24.316 It's not so much the hit that I'm interested in. 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:31.156 It's the it's the overtones that are gonna continueing. Has 0:20:31.196 --> 0:20:36.676 a little pulse, so I would attach that to certain notes. 0:20:37.036 --> 0:20:39.076 Where does that sound to use? What's throughout? 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:42.036 The rabbit just must probably used one hundred times? 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:44.036 And is that it? It's called an elephant bell. 0:20:44.356 --> 0:20:45.956 It's called an elephant is it. 0:20:45.996 --> 0:20:49.476 Actually a kind of vintage? It's not new. 0:20:50.116 --> 0:20:51.276 I don't know how old it is. 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:53.316 It's very unusual looking. 0:20:53.316 --> 0:20:58.356 It doesn't look it doesn't look it's probably uh, it's 0:20:58.476 --> 0:20:59.436 probably Asian. 0:21:00.316 --> 0:21:03.436 It's kind of claws on it. 0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:08.756 It's probably you know, uh, out of the Indonesian world. 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:09.956 Where did you get it? 0:21:11.236 --> 0:21:14.636 Well? I have a lot of different percussion instruments. Some 0:21:14.836 --> 0:21:18.436 I picked up on the road. Some are given to 0:21:18.476 --> 0:21:21.036 me by guys in the band because they knew I 0:21:21.116 --> 0:21:25.116 was interested in percussion, So over the years have collected 0:21:25.436 --> 0:21:28.596 a lot of it. So the guitar has a has 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:30.916 a bell in it, It has a ring in it, 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.516 and sometimes that attach this spell to it. Very subtly. 0:21:36.396 --> 0:21:38.076 It's not meant to. 0:21:37.996 --> 0:21:41.276 Be, you know, really noticed as much as felt. This 0:21:41.396 --> 0:21:43.916 bell that I'm holding now is called this is what 0:21:43.916 --> 0:21:45.396 we call this a spinning bell. 0:21:47.996 --> 0:21:48.716 Oh that's lovely. 0:21:50.196 --> 0:21:52.076 I don't know if you can hear it with this microphone, 0:21:52.116 --> 0:21:56.156 but it goes. That's a different bell use at a 0:21:56.196 --> 0:21:56.876 different time. 0:21:57.796 --> 0:22:01.436 It's just like a brass. 0:22:00.076 --> 0:22:05.236 A four inches wide and it sort of looks like 0:22:05.556 --> 0:22:09.956 a pointy hat and it's an eighth of an inch thick, 0:22:10.036 --> 0:22:13.476 and it's made out of brass, and it has a string. 0:22:13.596 --> 0:22:17.196 And you spin this string around so that when it unwinds, 0:22:17.236 --> 0:22:21.876 it spins, and as it spins it the sound changes. 0:22:21.916 --> 0:22:23.916 I'll do it again. I don't know whether these microphones 0:22:23.996 --> 0:22:25.756 are going to be able to pick this up, but 0:22:34.196 --> 0:22:40.196 that's just one of ten different sounds that I used. 0:22:41.276 --> 0:22:45.396 And for me, if you consider this record to be 0:22:45.436 --> 0:22:53.716 a spiritually oriented record, the spirituality is mostly expressed in 0:22:53.796 --> 0:22:59.076 the music, even though the words are on the same subject. 0:22:59.436 --> 0:23:04.876 But the unspoken, the silent conversation, so to speak, well, 0:23:04.956 --> 0:23:09.756 the conversation without words is the deeper spiritual for me 0:23:09.836 --> 0:23:14.316 because it's an express it's some expression of something that 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:20.196 I hear and feel without words. So, going back to reviews, 0:23:21.316 --> 0:23:26.476 if you're not focused on that aspect, and most reviewers 0:23:26.516 --> 0:23:29.356 are not going to focus on that because most reviewers 0:23:30.116 --> 0:23:35.276 are writers, and so they focus on words. Some reviewers 0:23:35.356 --> 0:23:40.436 or musicians as well, and they hear these other things. 0:23:41.276 --> 0:23:43.996 When I was mixing the record, I played played this 0:23:44.156 --> 0:23:47.276 for a musician friend of mine who happened to be 0:23:47.316 --> 0:23:52.156 in another adjacent studio, and he said, I like to 0:23:52.196 --> 0:23:54.516 listen to it at home, and then when he saw 0:23:54.596 --> 0:23:57.396 me the next day, he said, I kept thinking to myself, 0:23:58.396 --> 0:24:02.316 did I just hear I thought I heard a glimmer 0:24:02.396 --> 0:24:05.876 of and then I wasn't sure. I kept thinking throughout 0:24:05.916 --> 0:24:08.596 the record, did I just hear that sound that I 0:24:08.596 --> 0:24:13.116 imagine that's exactly what I wanted? Who is the musician? 0:24:13.636 --> 0:24:18.236 It was Chris Steely, who was a brilliant mandolin player, 0:24:19.476 --> 0:24:23.316 and he was hearing one of those percussion notes that whether. 0:24:23.116 --> 0:24:25.156 He was hearing that or it could have been any 0:24:25.236 --> 0:24:27.356 number of things. Because I viewed there are so many 0:24:27.396 --> 0:24:32.956 subtle sounds used throughout this piece, so many but the 0:24:33.036 --> 0:24:36.956 way I was hearing and the way he heard it 0:24:37.076 --> 0:24:40.236 was as if the sound stretched all the way to 0:24:40.316 --> 0:24:44.756 a horizon and I could just about make out what 0:24:44.876 --> 0:24:49.996 the sound was that in the farthest place away. So 0:24:50.116 --> 0:24:55.516 that that's a very deep, not deep, you know, intellectual 0:24:55.596 --> 0:25:00.076 expiracy of it. It has a deep visual perspective to sound. 0:25:00.396 --> 0:25:03.356 It goes way back, and it makes the guitar, this 0:25:03.476 --> 0:25:08.876 simple acoustic guitar sound bigger. Anyway, That's what I'm trying 0:25:08.876 --> 0:25:10.316 to But. 0:25:10.316 --> 0:25:12.716 Wait, Paul, that was a review that you liked. I mean, effectively, 0:25:12.716 --> 0:25:14.876 he was a reviewer and you liked what he had 0:25:14.916 --> 0:25:17.476 to It's like, conceptually. 0:25:17.396 --> 0:25:23.676 Yeah, because what he said was exactly what I hoped for. 0:25:24.396 --> 0:25:27.396 His interests was really piqued, but he wasn't sure whether 0:25:27.436 --> 0:25:30.596 his interest was meant to be peaked or whether he 0:25:30.676 --> 0:25:36.356 imagined it. Well, that's great because now you're really interested. 0:25:36.516 --> 0:25:39.116 Did I hear that I loved his question? Did I 0:25:39.196 --> 0:25:42.116 hear that? Well? Question, the answer is yes, you did. 0:25:43.116 --> 0:25:48.476 And when you become aware that there's an entire conversation 0:25:48.636 --> 0:25:53.676 going on way in the background that's related to what's 0:25:53.716 --> 0:25:58.316 going on in the foreground with guitar and voice, then 0:25:59.516 --> 0:26:03.796 for me as the composer, it's much more interesting. But 0:26:05.076 --> 0:26:08.156 that doesn't mean that when people listen to this record 0:26:08.156 --> 0:26:12.076 that they have to be aware of that. Most people, 0:26:13.076 --> 0:26:15.596 they're not supposed to be aware of it. It's just 0:26:15.636 --> 0:26:19.916 supposed to be pleasurable, just supposed to say, I really 0:26:19.996 --> 0:26:24.996 like that. Why, I don't know, I just liked it. 0:26:25.116 --> 0:26:29.276 That's fine, that's what. That's how most people hear musicians 0:26:29.276 --> 0:26:32.756 say what was that sound, because they're trained to do that. 0:26:34.116 --> 0:26:35.916 Well, in this case, I was going to talk about 0:26:35.916 --> 0:26:40.516 the good. Problem is that the lyrics are so good 0:26:41.316 --> 0:26:44.916 that you get distracted. I listened to it several times. Well, 0:26:44.916 --> 0:26:46.916 one of the times I listened to it the way 0:26:46.916 --> 0:26:49.716 I remember listening to records in the day, when you'd 0:26:49.756 --> 0:26:52.796 have the lyrics from the album cover and you would 0:26:52.996 --> 0:26:55.876 read the lyrics as you were hearing them. And you 0:26:55.996 --> 0:26:57.596 do that, you know, and one of your first year 0:26:57.636 --> 0:27:00.236 second listeners, just so you can kind of locate everything. 0:27:00.876 --> 0:27:02.716 And I was doing that. I was doing this yesterday, 0:27:02.916 --> 0:27:05.356 and I was like, you know, it was incredibly important 0:27:05.396 --> 0:27:10.316 because maybe really focus for a moment on the tree. 0:27:10.356 --> 0:27:12.796 And I was gonna touch with this because I think 0:27:12.876 --> 0:27:15.516 the writing here is as some of the best you've 0:27:15.556 --> 0:27:18.436 ever done. It's exquisite. There's a and I say it 0:27:18.436 --> 0:27:20.636 says now I'm responding as a writer, because I'm a writer. 0:27:21.276 --> 0:27:25.076 There's a little bit. For example, in my professional opinion, 0:27:25.676 --> 0:27:29.676 the line about the cows is as funny a line 0:27:29.716 --> 0:27:31.316 as you've as you've written. 0:27:31.796 --> 0:27:33.436 I had that line for a long time. 0:27:33.956 --> 0:27:36.036 I heard two cows in a conversation. One called the 0:27:36.076 --> 0:27:39.036 other one a name in my professional opinion, all cows 0:27:39.036 --> 0:27:40.756 in the country was spear of the blame. I mean, 0:27:40.836 --> 0:27:44.316 come on, it's like that's in the pantheon of great falls. 0:27:44.356 --> 0:27:44.956 I'm a line. 0:27:45.276 --> 0:27:48.116 Well, I don't know what that pantheon is, but anyway, 0:27:48.196 --> 0:27:50.796 to me, the funny thing was the two cows in conversation, 0:27:51.436 --> 0:27:55.316 and that came from a montalk where I lived. There's 0:27:55.396 --> 0:27:57.796 like a on the road that I drive up to 0:27:57.876 --> 0:28:01.836 our places. There's a big field and there are cows there, 0:28:02.196 --> 0:28:05.036 and you know, two cows were like leaning over the 0:28:05.396 --> 0:28:09.236 leaning over the fence. And so I thought of that 0:28:09.276 --> 0:28:14.836 line and wrote it down. It wasn't for anything. It 0:28:14.916 --> 0:28:18.836 was just a line that I saved and put in 0:28:18.876 --> 0:28:23.156 there my professional opinion. You know, I should say this, really, 0:28:24.476 --> 0:28:28.876 I think the truth is that for people who enjoy 0:28:30.116 --> 0:28:34.596 enjoyed this record, the enjoyment is not enhanced by me 0:28:34.716 --> 0:28:38.356 explaining any of this stuff. I don't think it helps. 0:28:39.476 --> 0:28:44.516 It's better left unexplained. If it's your job to understand 0:28:44.716 --> 0:28:48.316 how records are put together, either you're a writer, or 0:28:48.356 --> 0:28:51.476 you're a musician, or you're a producer or an engineer, 0:28:51.516 --> 0:28:56.556 well then you're really interested in it. But as a 0:28:56.796 --> 0:29:01.156 person who's not that and just an average listener, they 0:29:01.236 --> 0:29:03.476 don't need to know that I put this bill over 0:29:03.516 --> 0:29:07.636 here for this reason or that. Or it's either an 0:29:07.676 --> 0:29:12.876 idea that works and people like it and in this 0:29:13.036 --> 0:29:17.596 case they seem to really like it, or it doesn't work, 0:29:18.516 --> 0:29:21.156 or you know, and people don't. They don't hear it, 0:29:21.196 --> 0:29:24.676 and they're they're not interested, which is also a fact 0:29:24.716 --> 0:29:27.156 that that's going on too. There's a lot of people 0:29:27.156 --> 0:29:30.236