1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Paul Simon's one of the greatest living songwriters. Since 2 00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:28,196 Speaker 1: debuted with Art Garfunkel in nineteen fifty seven, Paul's written 3 00:00:28,236 --> 00:00:32,916 Speaker 1: countless songs that are quintessential to the American psyche. This year, 4 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 1: at eighty one years old, he's released the latest edition 5 00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: to his beloved catalog Seven Psalms, to an outpouring of 6 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: critical acclaim. In twenty twenty one, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce 7 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 1: Headlam released the audio original Miracle and Wonder Conversations with 8 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:53,756 Speaker 1: Paul Simon. It's an intimate look into Simon's songwriting, alongside 9 00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 1: never before heard live studio versions of hits including The Boxer, 10 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:01,916 Speaker 1: The Sound of Silence, and of course Graceland. If you 11 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:04,836 Speaker 1: haven't listened to Miracle and Wonder, I highly recommend checking 12 00:01:04,876 --> 00:01:08,836 Speaker 1: it out. It's available on Audible and at Pushkin dot FM. 13 00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:12,516 Speaker 1: This fall, at Pushkin will be releasing an updated version 14 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:15,956 Speaker 1: of the audiobook with a brand new chapter featuring even 15 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:19,476 Speaker 1: more from Malcolm and Paul's newly recorded deep dive into 16 00:01:19,516 --> 00:01:23,716 Speaker 1: Seven Psalms. To celebrate this newest chapter in Paul Simon's 17 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:26,676 Speaker 1: sixty five year career and the latest edition to Miracle 18 00:01:26,716 --> 00:01:30,196 Speaker 1: and wonder. On today's episode of Broken Record, Malcolm Gladwell 19 00:01:30,236 --> 00:01:33,236 Speaker 1: sits back down with Paul to discuss the creation of 20 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: his newest album. Paul explains why he Field's music reviews 21 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:39,996 Speaker 1: are more about the writer than the piece of music 22 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 1: being critiqued, and he talks about why many of his 23 00:01:42,716 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: lyrics take a more conversational bent. He also recalls how 24 00:01:46,996 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: the title for his newest record came to him in 25 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,756 Speaker 1: a dream after he considered never writing another piece of 26 00:01:52,836 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 1: music again. This is Broken Record liner notes for the 27 00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:04,436 Speaker 1: digital age. I'm justin ritchman. Here's Malcolm Gladwell with Paul Simon. 28 00:02:05,516 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 2: So how you been he this album? I was reading 29 00:02:08,436 --> 00:02:10,796 Speaker 2: through the reviews. I was like, can I find a 30 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:13,556 Speaker 2: bad review? I can't find one. This has never happened. 31 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 2: I'm so used to getting bad reviews myself that when 32 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 2: someone like you like hit for the cycle on this 33 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:20,716 Speaker 2: is like, there's no. 34 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 3: That's a great I like, I love all baseball metaphors. Well, 35 00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 3: it's very pleasant to have a hit. 36 00:02:27,916 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 4: You know. 37 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 3: I don't read reviews, so I didn't read any of them. 38 00:02:32,036 --> 00:02:35,316 Speaker 2: I'll tell you they are one hundred percent. They are rhapsodic. 39 00:02:35,796 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 2: You should read them. There's the fantastic. They're like, you know, if. 40 00:02:39,316 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 3: I do read them, I will not be happy. The 41 00:02:42,516 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 3: reviews are about the reviewer. Yeah, so number one, you 42 00:02:48,596 --> 00:02:55,716 Speaker 3: you're getting an insight into somebody's ego, which is sort 43 00:02:55,716 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 3: of private in a way. So I'm not really comfortable 44 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:04,876 Speaker 3: with that. Number Two, some people get what I'm doing 45 00:03:05,916 --> 00:03:09,716 Speaker 3: and other people don't really get one what I'm doing. 46 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 3: They still, evidently with these reviews, they still like it, 47 00:03:15,036 --> 00:03:17,756 Speaker 3: maybe even like it a lot, but I don't. They 48 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 3: don't go to the reasons that I put there. So, like, 49 00:03:24,596 --> 00:03:27,596 Speaker 3: I'll give you an example of things that I've heard, 50 00:03:27,676 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 3: because I haven't read any He's dealing with his mortality. 51 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:36,516 Speaker 3: I can understand that somebody would say it's not happens 52 00:03:36,516 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 3: not to be the case. You know, the way that 53 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:44,516 Speaker 3: I write, I would say from that they're probably mostly 54 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 3: going on the song. Wait. You know the way that 55 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 3: I write is it's partly true personally, it's partly like 56 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 3: a wish that I have, It's partly other people's lives. 57 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:08,356 Speaker 3: But it's a it's a character. Even though the character 58 00:04:08,556 --> 00:04:14,596 Speaker 3: is me, it's not really me. It's a character. So 59 00:04:14,956 --> 00:04:21,516 Speaker 3: that character is dealing with the issue of Mortality. That's 60 00:04:21,556 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 3: because the way that song was written maybe one of 61 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:31,396 Speaker 3: the last or the last song. The reason that it's 62 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 3: placed there is because that's a way to conclude the piece. 63 00:04:38,316 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 3: So it's appropriate, but it's not consuming my time and thought. 64 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 3: Of course, it's it's there, of course, but I'm not 65 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:53,796 Speaker 3: getting something out that that I have to say. I'm 66 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:59,716 Speaker 3: concluding this long piece in such a way that it 67 00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:02,636 Speaker 3: feels hopefully that it feels satisfying. 68 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 2: Did you right Weight, thinking that it was going to 69 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 2: be the final. 70 00:05:08,836 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wrote it as the final piece, so I 71 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:15,076 Speaker 3: think it was either Weight or Trail of Volcanoes that 72 00:05:15,196 --> 00:05:18,596 Speaker 3: was the final piece that I wrote. What happened with 73 00:05:18,676 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 3: Trailer Volcanos was I had another song and it didn't 74 00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:29,396 Speaker 3: fit anywhere, and so I said, I have to lose 75 00:05:29,436 --> 00:05:34,196 Speaker 3: this one. It does It's good. It was a guitar piece. 76 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 3: It wasn't a written song, but it didn't fit musically anywhere. 77 00:05:40,396 --> 00:05:43,956 Speaker 3: I just couldn't find its place. I was at that 78 00:05:44,076 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 3: point in the construction of the piece or the album 79 00:05:48,476 --> 00:05:56,236 Speaker 3: where my craftsmanship and my editing is dictating what I'm doing. 80 00:05:57,356 --> 00:06:02,956 Speaker 3: It says to me that is slowing everything down. No 81 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 3: matter where you put it, and I'm looking for something 82 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:13,076 Speaker 3: to continue the momentum, to get to the final lord 83 00:06:13,476 --> 00:06:16,876 Speaker 3: and the conclusion. Even though I didn't know what the 84 00:06:16,916 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 3: conclusion was at that point, I understood from years of 85 00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 3: making records that it wasn't right for the set. So 86 00:06:26,956 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 3: I tossed it out and I said, I need a 87 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 3: piece that has more of a sense of rhythm than 88 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 3: the rest of the album, because the rest of the 89 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 3: album is very free rhythmically. There's no drums, there's no bass, 90 00:06:47,836 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 3: but a Trail of Volcanoes comes from a loop a 91 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 3: bell of bells, so it's got a real pulse to it. 92 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 3: Even though I don't keep the bells going all the time, 93 00:07:00,516 --> 00:07:03,716 Speaker 3: I remove them and bring them back. But that served 94 00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:07,276 Speaker 3: a good purpose for where it was in the album, 95 00:07:08,156 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 3: just in terms of of your ear, not in terms 96 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:16,236 Speaker 3: of subject matter. So that piece found was placed where 97 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 3: it is in the album for those reasons, and the 98 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 3: end piece is there also as an end piece. And 99 00:07:25,316 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 3: then from those two decisions, I then wrote wrote the lyrics. 100 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 3: I didn't know what I was going to write in 101 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 3: Trail of Volcanoes, which in a way you can tell 102 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:43,116 Speaker 3: from from the way it begins. Some of my songs 103 00:07:43,156 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 3: begin very conversationally to me. That's if I had to 104 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 3: look at some old song and tell you what was 105 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 3: I thinking, even if I couldn't remember it, I would say, oh, 106 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 3: I didn't know what I was thinking. So I just 107 00:07:58,796 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 3: began and Trail of Volcanoes. When I was young, I 108 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 3: carried my geto. You know, that's a simple sentence. I 109 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 3: don't know what the point of I don't know what 110 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:12,196 Speaker 3: the point of the piece would be, but I did 111 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 3: have the line trail of volcanoes. It was in my notes. 112 00:08:18,316 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 3: So that's what that song does. As it happens, it 113 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:30,876 Speaker 3: has an appropriate thought for the entire piece. But as 114 00:08:30,956 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 3: far as the ear goes, it's the repetitive rhythm that 115 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 3: gives the ear a sense of I don't know, hopefully, 116 00:08:39,876 --> 00:08:43,476 Speaker 3: hopefully it gives it a pleasure after things have been 117 00:08:43,516 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 3: sort of floating and not exactly a rhythmic, but not 118 00:08:48,836 --> 00:08:53,316 Speaker 3: with a tight rhythm. Here's a loop and weight becomes. 119 00:08:54,676 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 3: After these six songs, what subject would I be on? 120 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 3: And someone I played it for at that early stage said, 121 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 3: heard the first six and I just had the track 122 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:16,876 Speaker 3: for the seventh, and said, hearing these first six, I 123 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:21,836 Speaker 3: just feel like I really don't want to die, and 124 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 3: there was the subject of wait, so anyway back to 125 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 3: reviews and critics, that's how that came about. But if 126 00:09:32,596 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 3: you were writing and saying, well, mortality is on his mind, 127 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 3: it's not wrong to say that, but it's I'm not 128 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:43,156 Speaker 3: interested in as a thought because it's not actually what 129 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 3: I was thinking. What I was thinking was sort of 130 00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 3: mundane compared to the idea of me contemplating my mortality. 131 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:56,276 Speaker 3: I was constructing a piece. 132 00:09:57,076 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, go back a little bit. I was curious. The 133 00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 2: last record you had made prior to this was twenty sixteen, 134 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 2: So this is the this is the longest break you 135 00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:13,076 Speaker 2: took between right music, new songs, new songs in your life. 136 00:10:14,116 --> 00:10:17,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, it probably was when I stopped performing and said 137 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 3: I'm going to stop, which I think was in twenty eighteen. Yeah. 138 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 3: One of my thoughts was, well, first of all, I thought, 139 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:29,556 Speaker 3: this show that I'm doing, I've really taken it as 140 00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 3: far as I can take it in terms of rethinking 141 00:10:35,436 --> 00:10:41,996 Speaker 3: songs and arrangements and anything that I did to that 142 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 3: show as it then existed, it really would be in 143 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 3: the danger zone of being real Coco, you know, just 144 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:52,996 Speaker 3: be adding little things. And because I thought it's really 145 00:10:53,116 --> 00:10:56,756 Speaker 3: right now, So I don't want to continue doing this 146 00:10:56,956 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 3: because I'm not going to get to the nourishment of 147 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 3: rethinking songs and arrangements because they're really pretty well thought out. 148 00:11:07,396 --> 00:11:09,356 Speaker 3: And if I don't get that, then i'd I don't 149 00:11:09,436 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 3: like performing because I'm bored. So I thought it's completed. 150 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:19,996 Speaker 3: Its cycle is completed. It's not a bad time to stop. 151 00:11:21,596 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 3: And as for writing, if I continued writing from the 152 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 3: way that I wrote the last piece of original music, 153 00:11:30,556 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 3: which was A Stranger to Stranger, I would be continuing 154 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 3: problem solving in a way that started when I began 155 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 3: to write when I was thirteen. So from the age 156 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:48,716 Speaker 3: of thirteen, when I wrote my first songs, my songwriting 157 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:53,996 Speaker 3: evolved in the way that the way my songwriting evolved. 158 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:57,436 Speaker 3: So if I think of it as problem solving, I 159 00:11:57,476 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 3: would continue problem solving in the same way. And from that, 160 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:07,116 Speaker 3: this is my internal conversation. I said, so I can 161 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:14,156 Speaker 3: make an album that's as good as Stranger the Stranger again, 162 00:12:15,076 --> 00:12:19,156 Speaker 3: and I thought that album was good, but I'm not 163 00:12:19,236 --> 00:12:25,196 Speaker 3: really enticed to do that, so I'll just not do it. 164 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:30,036 Speaker 3: I'll just stop, And if I want to find something 165 00:12:30,116 --> 00:12:37,436 Speaker 3: that's challenging, and that's new for me. The way to 166 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 3: do that is to shut everything down and begin again. 167 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 3: That was my thought. I didn't then start to work 168 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 3: on anything because time went by, and then I had 169 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 3: this dream that said, oh, you were writing seven psalms 170 00:12:54,956 --> 00:13:00,316 Speaker 3: or you should be writing seven psalms. So I began, 171 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 3: you know, whether it was subconsciously or not, I don't 172 00:13:04,196 --> 00:13:07,316 Speaker 3: know it. But I began to start from scratch again, 173 00:13:08,076 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 3: picked up a guitar, and the wrote guitar pieces, and 174 00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 3: you know, got more thinking about how I played guitar, 175 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 3: and just I went back to what was the simplest way, 176 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:26,956 Speaker 3: and I started to build from there. After about a 177 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:31,556 Speaker 3: year of writing guitar pieces, words started to come also 178 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 3: from dreams, which is unusual for me. I mean, it's 179 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 3: it's happened in the past that I've thought of a 180 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 3: line or two, but that's not usually the way I 181 00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:44,436 Speaker 3: The way I write this was this was unusual. 182 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:47,676 Speaker 2: Do you remember can you even play for me the 183 00:13:47,716 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 2: first little bit of music that got you going on this? 184 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, the first thing that I did was to play that, 185 00:13:54,636 --> 00:14:12,036 Speaker 3: really the first song, that's where I had, and then 186 00:14:12,116 --> 00:14:15,276 Speaker 3: I began to put Eventually it got into a pattern 187 00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 3: which was. 188 00:14:17,796 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 5: No. 189 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 3: The first one was that was the first one. The 190 00:14:24,916 --> 00:14:35,036 Speaker 3: second pattern that I play is twice, so so the 191 00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:48,676 Speaker 3: first two patterns are The third pattern was another variation. 192 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 2: M h. 193 00:14:58,596 --> 00:15:05,196 Speaker 3: Those four variations on the on that lick, they were 194 00:15:06,076 --> 00:15:08,516 Speaker 3: necessitated by the lyrics that I was singing. 195 00:15:09,516 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 2: Explain what you mean by that. 196 00:15:11,316 --> 00:15:15,676 Speaker 3: The Lord is my engineer, I don't want. The Lord 197 00:15:15,756 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 3: is my engineer, lost, my use and. 198 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 4: Loss. The earth Lord is the earth ride on. 199 00:15:27,996 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 3: So that's why the first is long. The second is 200 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 3: did dobby loss of face in the atmosphere, the path 201 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 3: I slip and slide on. That's the conclusion of those things. 202 00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 3: So once I had written those words, I said, well, 203 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:54,956 Speaker 3: the guitar part has to go this way. 204 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:59,836 Speaker 2: Oh, I see. You begin with the guitar part, write 205 00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 2: the lyrics and then adapt. Then you start to Then 206 00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 2: you start and fiddle. 207 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:11,996 Speaker 3: You write something that's just comes to you for reasons 208 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 3: that you can't explain, and you start to think of 209 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 3: what you might say over that, and when you find 210 00:16:22,236 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 3: what you want to say, you modify the accompaniment so 211 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:32,716 Speaker 3: that it fits. Then it becomes a symmetrical pattern, and 212 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 3: that pattern is repeated throughout every time the Lord's section comes, 213 00:16:37,956 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 3: that pattern is repeated. 214 00:16:40,876 --> 00:16:42,516 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then come 215 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. We're 216 00:16:49,956 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. 217 00:16:53,476 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 2: Can you give me another example from of the kind 218 00:16:56,516 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 2: of loop between the music and the lyrics that you 219 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 2: were working on with it. 220 00:17:02,876 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 3: Yeah. The process for me is a thought that comes 221 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:13,716 Speaker 3: from someplace that I have I don't know, just one 222 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 3: second it's not there, the next second it's there. And 223 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:22,476 Speaker 3: with that piece of information, it then gets put into 224 00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:30,316 Speaker 3: the pile of potentially to be edited that pile and 225 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:34,156 Speaker 3: the words start to come and as if it was 226 00:17:34,356 --> 00:17:38,156 Speaker 3: as if you were sculpting a piece of wood or stone, 227 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 3: you slice away and chip away to find the right shape. 228 00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 3: And in the case of the Seven Psalms album, because 229 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 3: it's really a voice and guitar, even though there are 230 00:17:53,476 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 3: a lot of other instruments augmenting the sound of the guitar, 231 00:17:57,436 --> 00:17:59,796 Speaker 3: essentially what you're hearing is a voice and a guitar, 232 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:03,796 Speaker 3: which means that particular attention has to be paid to 233 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:09,156 Speaker 3: what the guitar is playing and the dynamics of the 234 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:14,756 Speaker 3: guitar the volume of you know how soft it gets, 235 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:19,436 Speaker 3: and because that's an acoustic guitar, just the way you 236 00:18:19,516 --> 00:18:27,116 Speaker 3: play it automatically has in the nature of it is 237 00:18:27,116 --> 00:18:29,356 Speaker 3: that some notes are going to be louder than others 238 00:18:29,396 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 3: because of the way the guitar is built and just acoustics. 239 00:18:36,076 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 3: So one of the things that happened in Seven Psalms 240 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 3: that was different from the other albums is that I 241 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 3: really paid a lot of attention to making the notes, 242 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 3: the individual notes of a piece be balanced and have 243 00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:57,796 Speaker 3: a dynamic to them. So if one note stuck out 244 00:18:57,836 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 3: in a way I didn't want, I could lower it 245 00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:05,076 Speaker 3: in pro tools, or the opposite. If it was too 246 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 3: soft and I needed it to punch more, I could 247 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 3: raise it it. So one of the things that's unique 248 00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:17,716 Speaker 3: about Seven Psalms for me is that I'm treating the 249 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:23,036 Speaker 3: guitar as an entire orchestra. I use the rhythm of 250 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 3: it that's partly drum. There's not drum there, and even 251 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:43,876 Speaker 3: when I play that, I'm muting it partly, whereas I'm 252 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:48,076 Speaker 3: not muting this. So because it's just a guitar and 253 00:19:48,116 --> 00:19:52,996 Speaker 3: a voice, I'm paying a lot of attention to what's 254 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:57,316 Speaker 3: going on with the guitar. And from that I'm adding 255 00:19:57,676 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 3: these other percussion instruments, mostly bells, but gongs. I can 256 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 3: show you there's a bell. I don't know why this 257 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 3: is called an elephant bell, but so here it is. 258 00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 3: It's not so much the hit that I'm interested in. 259 00:20:24,476 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 3: It's the it's the overtones that are gonna continueing. Has 260 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 3: a little pulse, so I would attach that to certain notes. 261 00:20:37,036 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 2: Where does that sound to use? What's throughout? 262 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 3: The rabbit just must probably used one hundred times? 263 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 2: And is that it? It's called an elephant bell. 264 00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:45,956 Speaker 3: It's called an elephant is it. 265 00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:49,476 Speaker 2: Actually a kind of vintage? It's not new. 266 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 3: I don't know how old it is. 267 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 2: It's very unusual looking. 268 00:20:53,316 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 3: It doesn't look it doesn't look it's probably uh, it's 269 00:20:58,476 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 3: probably Asian. 270 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 2: It's kind of claws on it. 271 00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:08,756 Speaker 3: It's probably you know, uh, out of the Indonesian world. 272 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:09,956 Speaker 2: Where did you get it? 273 00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 3: Well? I have a lot of different percussion instruments. Some 274 00:21:14,836 --> 00:21:18,436 Speaker 3: I picked up on the road. Some are given to 275 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:21,036 Speaker 3: me by guys in the band because they knew I 276 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:25,116 Speaker 3: was interested in percussion, So over the years have collected 277 00:21:25,436 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 3: a lot of it. So the guitar has a has 278 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:30,916 Speaker 3: a bell in it, It has a ring in it, 279 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:35,516 Speaker 3: and sometimes that attach this spell to it. Very subtly. 280 00:21:36,396 --> 00:21:38,076 Speaker 2: It's not meant to. 281 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 3: Be, you know, really noticed as much as felt. This 282 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 3: bell that I'm holding now is called this is what 283 00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:45,396 Speaker 3: we call this a spinning bell. 284 00:21:47,996 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 2: Oh that's lovely. 285 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 3: I don't know if you can hear it with this microphone, 286 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 3: but it goes. That's a different bell use at a 287 00:21:56,196 --> 00:21:56,876 Speaker 3: different time. 288 00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 2: It's just like a brass. 289 00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 3: A four inches wide and it sort of looks like 290 00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:09,956 Speaker 3: a pointy hat and it's an eighth of an inch thick, 291 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 3: and it's made out of brass, and it has a string. 292 00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:17,196 Speaker 3: And you spin this string around so that when it unwinds, 293 00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 3: it spins, and as it spins it the sound changes. 294 00:22:21,916 --> 00:22:23,916 Speaker 3: I'll do it again. I don't know whether these microphones 295 00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:25,756 Speaker 3: are going to be able to pick this up, but 296 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 3: that's just one of ten different sounds that I used. 297 00:22:41,276 --> 00:22:45,396 Speaker 3: And for me, if you consider this record to be 298 00:22:45,436 --> 00:22:53,716 Speaker 3: a spiritually oriented record, the spirituality is mostly expressed in 299 00:22:53,796 --> 00:22:59,076 Speaker 3: the music, even though the words are on the same subject. 300 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 3: But the unspoken, the silent conversation, so to speak, well, 301 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 3: the conversation without words is the deeper spiritual for me 302 00:23:09,836 --> 00:23:14,316 Speaker 3: because it's an express it's some expression of something that 303 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 3: I hear and feel without words. So, going back to reviews, 304 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 3: if you're not focused on that aspect, and most reviewers 305 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:29,356 Speaker 3: are not going to focus on that because most reviewers 306 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:35,276 Speaker 3: are writers, and so they focus on words. Some reviewers 307 00:23:35,356 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 3: or musicians as well, and they hear these other things. 308 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 3: When I was mixing the record, I played played this 309 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 3: for a musician friend of mine who happened to be 310 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 3: in another adjacent studio, and he said, I like to 311 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:54,516 Speaker 3: listen to it at home, and then when he saw 312 00:23:54,596 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 3: me the next day, he said, I kept thinking to myself, 313 00:23:58,396 --> 00:24:02,316 Speaker 3: did I just hear I thought I heard a glimmer 314 00:24:02,396 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 3: of and then I wasn't sure. I kept thinking throughout 315 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:08,596 Speaker 3: the record, did I just hear that sound that I 316 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 3: imagine that's exactly what I wanted? Who is the musician? 317 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 2: It was Chris Steely, who was a brilliant mandolin player, 318 00:24:19,476 --> 00:24:23,316 Speaker 2: and he was hearing one of those percussion notes that whether. 319 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 3: He was hearing that or it could have been any 320 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:27,356 Speaker 3: number of things. Because I viewed there are so many 321 00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:32,956 Speaker 3: subtle sounds used throughout this piece, so many but the 322 00:24:33,036 --> 00:24:36,956 Speaker 3: way I was hearing and the way he heard it 323 00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:40,236 Speaker 3: was as if the sound stretched all the way to 324 00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 3: a horizon and I could just about make out what 325 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:49,996 Speaker 3: the sound was that in the farthest place away. So 326 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 3: that that's a very deep, not deep, you know, intellectual 327 00:24:55,596 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 3: expiracy of it. It has a deep visual perspective to sound. 328 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 3: It goes way back, and it makes the guitar, this 329 00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 3: simple acoustic guitar sound bigger. Anyway, That's what I'm trying 330 00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 3: to But. 331 00:25:10,316 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 2: Wait, Paul, that was a review that you liked. I mean, effectively, 332 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:14,876 Speaker 2: he was a reviewer and you liked what he had 333 00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 2: to It's like, conceptually. 334 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:23,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, because what he said was exactly what I hoped for. 335 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 3: His interests was really piqued, but he wasn't sure whether 336 00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 3: his interest was meant to be peaked or whether he 337 00:25:30,676 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 3: imagined it. Well, that's great because now you're really interested. 338 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:39,116 Speaker 3: Did I hear that I loved his question? Did I 339 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 3: hear that? Well? Question, the answer is yes, you did. 340 00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:48,476 Speaker 3: And when you become aware that there's an entire conversation 341 00:25:48,636 --> 00:25:53,676 Speaker 3: going on way in the background that's related to what's 342 00:25:53,716 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 3: going on in the foreground with guitar and voice, then 343 00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:03,796 Speaker 3: for me as the composer, it's much more interesting. But 344 00:26:05,076 --> 00:26:08,156 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that when people listen to this record 345 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 3: that they have to be aware of that. Most people, 346 00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 3: they're not supposed to be aware of it. It's just 347 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 3: supposed to be pleasurable, just supposed to say, I really 348 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:24,996 Speaker 3: like that. Why, I don't know, I just liked it. 349 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 3: That's fine, that's what. That's how most people hear musicians 350 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:32,756 Speaker 3: say what was that sound, because they're trained to do that. 351 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:35,916 Speaker 2: Well, in this case, I was going to talk about 352 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:40,516 Speaker 2: the good. Problem is that the lyrics are so good 353 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:44,916 Speaker 2: that you get distracted. I listened to it several times. Well, 354 00:26:44,916 --> 00:26:46,916 Speaker 2: one of the times I listened to it the way 355 00:26:46,916 --> 00:26:49,716 Speaker 2: I remember listening to records in the day, when you'd 356 00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 2: have the lyrics from the album cover and you would 357 00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:55,876 Speaker 2: read the lyrics as you were hearing them. And you 358 00:26:55,996 --> 00:26:57,596 Speaker 2: do that, you know, and one of your first year 359 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: second listeners, just so you can kind of locate everything. 360 00:27:00,876 --> 00:27:02,716 Speaker 2: And I was doing that. I was doing this yesterday, 361 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,356 Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, it was incredibly important 362 00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:10,316 Speaker 2: because maybe really focus for a moment on the tree. 363 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,796 Speaker 2: And I was gonna touch with this because I think 364 00:27:12,876 --> 00:27:15,516 Speaker 2: the writing here is as some of the best you've 365 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 2: ever done. It's exquisite. There's a and I say it 366 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 2: says now I'm responding as a writer, because I'm a writer. 367 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:25,076 Speaker 2: There's a little bit. For example, in my professional opinion, 368 00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:29,676 Speaker 2: the line about the cows is as funny a line 369 00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:31,316 Speaker 2: as you've as you've written. 370 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:33,436 Speaker 3: I had that line for a long time. 371 00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 2: I heard two cows in a conversation. One called the 372 00:27:36,076 --> 00:27:39,036 Speaker 2: other one a name in my professional opinion, all cows 373 00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:40,756 Speaker 2: in the country was spear of the blame. I mean, 374 00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 2: come on, it's like that's in the pantheon of great falls. 375 00:27:44,356 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 2: I'm a line. 376 00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know what that pantheon is, but anyway, 377 00:27:48,196 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 3: to me, the funny thing was the two cows in conversation, 378 00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 3: and that came from a montalk where I lived. There's 379 00:27:55,396 --> 00:27:57,796 Speaker 3: like a on the road that I drive up to 380 00:27:57,876 --> 00:28:01,836 Speaker 3: our places. There's a big field and there are cows there, 381 00:28:02,196 --> 00:28:05,036 Speaker 3: and you know, two cows were like leaning over the 382 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 3: leaning over the fence. And so I thought of that 383 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 3: line and wrote it down. It wasn't for anything. It 384 00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:18,836 Speaker 3: was just a line that I saved and put in 385 00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 3: there my professional opinion. You know, I should say this, really, 386 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 3: I think the truth is that for people who enjoy 387 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 3: enjoyed this record, the enjoyment is not enhanced by me 388 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 3: explaining any of this stuff. I don't think it helps. 389 00:28:39,476 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 3: It's better left unexplained. If it's your job to understand 390 00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:48,316 Speaker 3: how records are put together, either you're a writer, or 391 00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:51,476 Speaker 3: you're a musician, or you're a producer or an engineer, 392 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:56,556 Speaker 3: well then you're really interested in it. But as a 393 00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 3: person who's not that and just an average listener, they 394 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,476 Speaker 3: don't need to know that I put this bill over 395 00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 3: here for this reason or that. Or it's either an 396 00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 3: idea that works and people like it and in this 397 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 3: case they seem to really like it, or it doesn't work, 398 00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:21,156 Speaker 3: or you know, and people don't. They don't hear it, 399 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:24,676 Speaker 3: and they're they're not interested, which is also a fact 400 00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:27,156 Speaker 3: that that's going on too. There's a lot of people 401 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:30,236 Speaker 3: who never heard this, never will and don't care. 402 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:32,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we don't want to go back to fecial 403 00:29:32,956 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 2: meaning for a moment, just because that was the when 404 00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:38,516 Speaker 2: I was kind of fixating on. Can you talk a 405 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:42,956 Speaker 2: little bit about how the interaction between the music and 406 00:29:43,036 --> 00:29:44,636 Speaker 2: the words In that case. 407 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:49,876 Speaker 3: This is about the structure of the entire piece. The 408 00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 3: first two songs, The Lord and Love is like a braid. 409 00:29:55,436 --> 00:30:00,076 Speaker 3: They have a certain feel to them, more like ballads 410 00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 3: and a certain mood. I don't know what you call 411 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 3: want to call it, doesn't matter what you want to 412 00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:08,996 Speaker 3: call it. It has a certain mood. So this again 413 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 3: goes to me as an editor of the piece that 414 00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:18,876 Speaker 3: I'm working on. I think the listener who has heard 415 00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:23,156 Speaker 3: this first two songs and it's probably about eight or 416 00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:30,876 Speaker 3: nine minutes worth, they have inferred a certain mood about 417 00:30:30,876 --> 00:30:36,956 Speaker 3: this piece. But I don't want that to happen, so 418 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 3: I purposefully make the third piece to break that inference. 419 00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 3: So instead of having pieces that were. 420 00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:51,196 Speaker 2: Which was The Lord or. 421 00:30:56,676 --> 00:31:00,116 Speaker 3: That kind of playing, I'm playing something that's like a 422 00:31:00,236 --> 00:31:35,196 Speaker 3: kind of an old bluesy Jimmy Reid kind of that's 423 00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:36,356 Speaker 3: a very different mood. 424 00:31:37,036 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 2: You don't stop, don't stop. I'm enjoying myself. 425 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,556 Speaker 3: For the reason I can't remember, you know, the reason 426 00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:49,116 Speaker 3: I'm not playing more is that, well, I haven't played 427 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 3: it in a long time, so I'm sort of going 428 00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:53,236 Speaker 3: by muscle memory. 429 00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. The reason when you said that the this isn't 430 00:31:57,116 --> 00:32:00,516 Speaker 2: really just an album, you confronting your mortality and The 431 00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:04,556 Speaker 2: reason I agree with that is that that song you're 432 00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:08,996 Speaker 2: having so much fun. It's like there's there's everything. There's 433 00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 2: mischief in it, there's a little bit of street sass, 434 00:32:13,476 --> 00:32:16,036 Speaker 2: there's I can see you as a kid on the 435 00:32:16,036 --> 00:32:20,276 Speaker 2: streets of Queens, like you're both commenting on and kind 436 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:22,996 Speaker 2: of mocking a little bit of you know, the popular culture. 437 00:32:23,036 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just like, it's not a song 438 00:32:24,916 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 2: about a guy at the end of his life confronting 439 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:29,396 Speaker 2: his mortality. It's about a song about a guy in 440 00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:33,996 Speaker 2: the middle of everything, like you know, right, fun in. 441 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 3: That it has fun and it has jokes. Yes, it 442 00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:41,716 Speaker 3: has good morning, mister indignation. It's so the mood of 443 00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 3: the first two pieces is changed, or hopefully is changed 444 00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 3: by the rhythm of this piece and the lyrics which 445 00:32:53,196 --> 00:32:57,836 Speaker 3: have jokes or humor in them as well as their commentary, 446 00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:01,556 Speaker 3: and it by the end of the pieces, the piece 447 00:33:01,596 --> 00:33:05,316 Speaker 3: is summed up with all that really matters is the 448 00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 3: one who became us, anointed and gamed with his opinion. 449 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 3: So that brings me back to the theme of where 450 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 3: the entire piece is headed. And now I'm set for 451 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:26,436 Speaker 3: really the beginning of the album. Your forgiveness. From here on, 452 00:33:26,516 --> 00:33:31,596 Speaker 3: it's going to be sort of intense and growing. So 453 00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 3: the first the first two songs introduce you to the 454 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:38,716 Speaker 3: mood and the theme. The third song says, don't get 455 00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:42,196 Speaker 3: too settled into that and think that this is not 456 00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 3: what people are thinking. This is what I'm thinking as 457 00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:51,156 Speaker 3: someone who's observing attention span of a listening audience or 458 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 3: imagining their attention span and trying to make it as 459 00:33:56,396 --> 00:34:00,196 Speaker 3: enjoyable as possible by not allowing you to get bored 460 00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:00,756 Speaker 3: too early. 461 00:34:01,316 --> 00:34:03,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's very I mean, remembering back to our 462 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:09,476 Speaker 2: long conversations two years ago. It's typical of your kind 463 00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:13,396 Speaker 2: of writing and communication style that you'd like to establish 464 00:34:13,716 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 2: something and then say, wait a minute, wait a minute, 465 00:34:15,956 --> 00:34:20,076 Speaker 2: and then the humor often comes in you amending the 466 00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:21,916 Speaker 2: impression that you've given. 467 00:34:22,236 --> 00:34:22,756 Speaker 3: That's right. 468 00:34:22,916 --> 00:34:25,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a line someone in one of the reviews, 469 00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 2: someone qullted that lovely line where you said, I'm a 470 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:31,716 Speaker 2: man who likes to travel, but maybe not since I lived. 471 00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:32,276 Speaker 2: What's the line? 472 00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:35,396 Speaker 3: Oh, that's from Darling Lorraine. That's a perfect example of this. 473 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:37,996 Speaker 3: I think that might have been the first time that 474 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:40,796 Speaker 3: I may have used that kind of joke. The line 475 00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:46,516 Speaker 3: is all my life I've been a wanderer, which I 476 00:34:46,556 --> 00:34:49,836 Speaker 3: wrote because I just make up things as I'm searching 477 00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:52,916 Speaker 3: for a melody. I wrote that line and thought, what bullshit, 478 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:56,036 Speaker 3: you know, So what it ends up in the song 479 00:34:56,156 --> 00:34:59,796 Speaker 3: is all my life. I've been a wanderer. Not really, 480 00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:02,996 Speaker 3: I mostly lived in my parents' home. Anyway, Lorraine and 481 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:07,396 Speaker 3: I got married, and I love that the subject changes 482 00:35:07,996 --> 00:35:10,876 Speaker 3: completely one hundred day degrees. He says a line it's 483 00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:13,636 Speaker 3: just a lie. Then he says, ah, you know that's bullshit. 484 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:17,116 Speaker 3: Really anyway, back to Lorraine and I. We got married, 485 00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:22,396 Speaker 3: and that's the way conversations are. We don't just talk 486 00:35:22,436 --> 00:35:25,116 Speaker 3: on one straight subject. We do this and then there's 487 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:27,996 Speaker 3: an interruption and we go over here and we say, oh, 488 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 3: that reminds me I have to pick up my clothes 489 00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:34,316 Speaker 3: at the cleaners, or a funny thing that somebody said. 490 00:35:34,556 --> 00:35:38,836 Speaker 3: It's just the mind changes all the time, and songs 491 00:35:38,876 --> 00:35:42,956 Speaker 3: can be the same, and when they are it doesn't 492 00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 3: upset the listener. I don't think. 493 00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:48,876 Speaker 1: We have to pause for another quick break, and then 494 00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:52,636 Speaker 1: we'll come back with more from Malcolm Gladwell and Paul Simon. 495 00:35:56,836 --> 00:35:59,716 Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Malcolm Gladwell's conversation with 496 00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:00,516 Speaker 1: Paul Simon. 497 00:36:01,996 --> 00:36:05,036 Speaker 2: My favorite component I don't I guess we don't want 498 00:36:05,076 --> 00:36:07,556 Speaker 2: to call them songs. I don't know what we call them. 499 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:11,076 Speaker 2: But Sacred Heart is the one that I was really 500 00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:14,356 Speaker 2: drawn to. I wanted to talk about that one because 501 00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:18,556 Speaker 2: it has on just on the writing front. There's that 502 00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 2: one little bit about when the kids get in the 503 00:36:21,516 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 2: car and they say they would have motored down. I 504 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 2: haven't been done here. And then we talked about the 505 00:36:27,596 --> 00:36:30,356 Speaker 2: boy about he doesn't talk much anymore, just to the 506 00:36:30,396 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 2: voices inside his head. The boy just gazed down at 507 00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:36,676 Speaker 2: the floor and nodded once or twice at what she said. 508 00:36:37,156 --> 00:36:40,556 Speaker 2: That little section begins with her voice was a blend 509 00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:44,676 Speaker 2: of regional perfumes. We have no destination. It's another one 510 00:36:44,716 --> 00:36:46,756 Speaker 2: of those things where I was like, this is as 511 00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:52,676 Speaker 2: beautiful and perfect a section, lyrical section as you've ever done. 512 00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:53,756 Speaker 3: It's like, thank you. 513 00:36:54,076 --> 00:37:00,396 Speaker 2: It's an entire scene, in a brilliant, moving, powerful scene 514 00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:01,796 Speaker 2: in four lines. 515 00:37:03,236 --> 00:37:06,796 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I could use you as well, my reviewer. 516 00:37:07,676 --> 00:37:13,516 Speaker 3: You can review all my stuff. But I now, I 517 00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:16,036 Speaker 3: don't know where that came from. Her voice, blend of 518 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 3: regional perfume. But it sang perfectly, and it also had 519 00:37:22,276 --> 00:37:25,516 Speaker 3: a description of when you. 520 00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:27,956 Speaker 2: Say you, when you say it, it sang perfectly, what 521 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:28,396 Speaker 2: do you mean? 522 00:37:29,076 --> 00:37:33,156 Speaker 3: It had the right syllables and the right sound to 523 00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 3: go with the melody that I wanted to sing. I 524 00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:40,356 Speaker 3: didn't have to push ors fitted in or it was 525 00:37:40,396 --> 00:37:45,636 Speaker 3: a natural flow of words. But they also were an 526 00:37:45,676 --> 00:37:52,236 Speaker 3: interesting description that I think would be easily understood. You 527 00:37:52,236 --> 00:37:56,196 Speaker 3: could imagine what that would be. And it also implies 528 00:37:57,756 --> 00:38:02,196 Speaker 3: one thing about her as it's very womanly. And the 529 00:38:02,236 --> 00:38:07,556 Speaker 3: other is that it feels southern too. To me, it's 530 00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:12,196 Speaker 3: like regional perfume. I don't think of it as New 531 00:38:12,316 --> 00:38:16,196 Speaker 3: York perfume, you know, I think of it as Southern. 532 00:38:16,356 --> 00:38:19,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, that country Maine is not a perfumed accent. 533 00:38:19,996 --> 00:38:24,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like it's Texas, which is where it 534 00:38:24,916 --> 00:38:26,396 Speaker 3: was set. In my mind. 535 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:32,436 Speaker 2: You wrote that lyric here, yeah, And. 536 00:38:31,396 --> 00:38:37,916 Speaker 3: That's why Edie's voice, which it serves, serves the song 537 00:38:38,236 --> 00:38:44,476 Speaker 3: in several ways that are powerful. I think first of all, 538 00:38:44,476 --> 00:38:47,356 Speaker 3: you're not expecting to hear another voice come in on 539 00:38:47,396 --> 00:38:50,316 Speaker 3: the record. That has only been me and the guitars 540 00:38:50,396 --> 00:38:56,636 Speaker 3: so far, so it's a surprise and Edie is from Texas, 541 00:38:57,436 --> 00:39:01,476 Speaker 3: and she sings great no matter what she does. She's 542 00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:05,916 Speaker 3: one of those people that you know, has perfect pitch 543 00:39:05,996 --> 00:39:08,876 Speaker 3: and sings in tune all the time. It's very end 544 00:39:08,916 --> 00:39:15,996 Speaker 3: of your But she's also naturally inhabits that character. So 545 00:39:16,156 --> 00:39:19,316 Speaker 3: to me, she sounds like like that character. And it's 546 00:39:19,636 --> 00:39:22,876 Speaker 3: really the two of us in a pickup truck, which 547 00:39:22,916 --> 00:39:26,996 Speaker 3: she drives anyway, so she was the right person to 548 00:39:27,076 --> 00:39:32,196 Speaker 3: tell that story. And her accent is like that. It 549 00:39:32,276 --> 00:39:38,116 Speaker 3: is that sort of soft Southern accent. So it's a 550 00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:41,196 Speaker 3: little play. It's a little play that's going on there 551 00:39:41,236 --> 00:39:46,156 Speaker 3: with different characters and the sometimes, like when when she's 552 00:39:46,196 --> 00:39:49,436 Speaker 3: introduced with her lines hurry gets yourself inside the truck 553 00:39:49,596 --> 00:39:52,956 Speaker 3: to the to the hitchhikers when it's raining, the both 554 00:39:52,996 --> 00:39:56,876 Speaker 3: of us sing that line. I'm singing harmony to her, 555 00:39:57,316 --> 00:40:01,836 Speaker 3: but I fade out my voice somewhere in the middle 556 00:40:01,876 --> 00:40:04,916 Speaker 3: of the first sentence, so it's sort of my voice 557 00:40:04,996 --> 00:40:09,116 Speaker 3: introduces this character, but it doesn't stay for the convey 558 00:40:09,116 --> 00:40:11,236 Speaker 3: mention a length of time, which is a lot one 559 00:40:11,316 --> 00:40:16,396 Speaker 3: line or something. It's not a usual duet form. It's 560 00:40:16,436 --> 00:40:21,836 Speaker 3: a sound that comes and then disappears. That's like a 561 00:40:21,876 --> 00:40:26,876 Speaker 3: lot of sounds on this record. They appear and they disappear, 562 00:40:27,076 --> 00:40:32,076 Speaker 3: and then the listener says, what was that? More hopefully 563 00:40:32,316 --> 00:40:35,996 Speaker 3: they say that it's meant to be the way we 564 00:40:36,116 --> 00:40:39,836 Speaker 3: observe and the way we think. We don't think in 565 00:40:39,956 --> 00:40:45,516 Speaker 3: four bars or eight bars. We think with no bar lines. 566 00:40:46,036 --> 00:40:50,716 Speaker 3: Things come in and they go away. And that's what 567 00:40:51,236 --> 00:40:54,876 Speaker 3: I was trying to do with the writing, and that 568 00:40:54,956 --> 00:40:58,596 Speaker 3: song is a good example of me trying to do that. 569 00:40:58,916 --> 00:41:01,676 Speaker 2: You never considered anyone but Eadie for that. 570 00:41:02,236 --> 00:41:04,596 Speaker 3: Oh no, I never thought anybody else would would do that. 571 00:41:04,676 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 2: Were you thinking of her even as you first wrote 572 00:41:07,476 --> 00:41:08,356 Speaker 2: the lyrics. 573 00:41:09,116 --> 00:41:11,436 Speaker 3: I think once I put the other character in there, 574 00:41:11,596 --> 00:41:13,676 Speaker 3: I knew it would be it would be Edie and 575 00:41:13,876 --> 00:41:16,556 Speaker 3: Edie and I. We haven't done it on record, but 576 00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:20,756 Speaker 3: we've sung a lot in harmony, and like what many 577 00:41:20,836 --> 00:41:24,556 Speaker 3: years ago, Edie wrote these songs when our kids were little, 578 00:41:24,596 --> 00:41:26,796 Speaker 3: and she used to take them to the park and 579 00:41:26,836 --> 00:41:29,676 Speaker 3: the stroller. She would make up songs while they were 580 00:41:29,676 --> 00:41:34,196 Speaker 3: in the stroller on the swing, and they were great songs, 581 00:41:34,316 --> 00:41:37,756 Speaker 3: really simple, great, you know the kids could sing along with, 582 00:41:37,876 --> 00:41:39,156 Speaker 3: but beautiful. 583 00:41:39,756 --> 00:41:40,996 Speaker 2: We did she ever record those? 584 00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:44,796 Speaker 3: We recorded them, Oh you did. Yeah, so I know 585 00:41:44,836 --> 00:41:46,916 Speaker 3: that we sing well together. We have a good, very 586 00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:50,916 Speaker 3: good blend. So Edie was always that character. And then 587 00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:55,836 Speaker 3: in Wait she also fits that another character. That voice 588 00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:59,236 Speaker 3: that comes in it was like sort of angelic. And 589 00:41:59,356 --> 00:42:03,836 Speaker 3: it also fits Edie's voice because it's a voice that 590 00:42:03,876 --> 00:42:05,876 Speaker 3: can go a lot in a lot of places. Her 591 00:42:05,956 --> 00:42:10,516 Speaker 3: natural inclination is to be a little bit bluesy, you know, 592 00:42:10,636 --> 00:42:14,436 Speaker 3: she let her notes sort of fall off, and but 593 00:42:14,596 --> 00:42:17,516 Speaker 3: in this case she's just singing in this voice that's 594 00:42:18,516 --> 00:42:21,596 Speaker 3: I don't know who that voice is, you know, I mean, 595 00:42:21,636 --> 00:42:24,076 Speaker 3: there would be the cliche would be it would be 596 00:42:24,116 --> 00:42:26,876 Speaker 3: like an angel's voice, you know. I mean, I wouldn't 597 00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:28,716 Speaker 3: say that, but that's cliche. 598 00:42:29,276 --> 00:42:31,516 Speaker 2: Can you play any any bit of the music for 599 00:42:31,996 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 2: Sacred Heart? 600 00:42:33,556 --> 00:42:33,756 Speaker 4: Yeah? 601 00:42:33,756 --> 00:42:35,796 Speaker 3: I can play a little bit of the guitar I forgot. 602 00:42:35,916 --> 00:42:45,876 Speaker 3: I forgot some of it. But you know, again, this 603 00:42:45,956 --> 00:42:53,236 Speaker 3: is of no interest to all but a tiny fortunate people. 604 00:42:54,996 --> 00:43:03,356 Speaker 3: But this interval is an unusual interval in songs. It's 605 00:43:03,356 --> 00:43:07,676 Speaker 3: for those who are musicians. It's a flat fifth or 606 00:43:07,836 --> 00:43:15,636 Speaker 3: sharp fourth. That interval. You don't hear it often. The 607 00:43:15,636 --> 00:43:17,436 Speaker 3: most famous example of it is. 608 00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:30,476 Speaker 6: Do Marie, do do that that? 609 00:43:30,476 --> 00:43:33,476 Speaker 3: That's otherwise you don't hear that too often. It's not 610 00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:39,436 Speaker 3: an easy interval to sing. Naturally, A fifth is natural? 611 00:43:42,356 --> 00:43:48,516 Speaker 3: Are you going this scarboroughfare? You here fifths all the time? 612 00:43:48,676 --> 00:43:50,436 Speaker 2: Why did you use the unusual one here? 613 00:43:51,076 --> 00:43:55,396 Speaker 3: Because it's uh, it's unusual and interesting. It's interesting too, 614 00:43:55,476 --> 00:43:56,836 Speaker 3: it's interesting to the ear. 615 00:43:58,716 --> 00:44:22,316 Speaker 4: But mm hmm, change of moods the summer stone. You 616 00:44:22,516 --> 00:44:24,556 Speaker 4: raised the song this guy. 617 00:44:26,396 --> 00:44:38,396 Speaker 5: Two happless Cittackers wire singly Nuts as we were cruising by. 618 00:44:38,196 --> 00:44:40,236 Speaker 2: Why when I said that was my favorite song, you 619 00:44:40,276 --> 00:44:41,996 Speaker 2: said that's my favorite song too. Why is it your 620 00:44:42,036 --> 00:44:42,556 Speaker 2: favorite song? 621 00:44:43,756 --> 00:44:47,476 Speaker 3: Well? I love the duet. I really liked the story. 622 00:44:48,036 --> 00:44:52,196 Speaker 3: I like the way the voices come in and the 623 00:44:52,236 --> 00:44:57,436 Speaker 3: way they dance with each other. I like that little interval. 624 00:44:58,236 --> 00:45:03,196 Speaker 3: I liked her voice of blend of regional perfumes. I 625 00:45:03,316 --> 00:45:07,836 Speaker 3: like the way the mist turns from what she says 626 00:45:07,876 --> 00:45:11,636 Speaker 3: in the beginning, the rain will turn to mist with 627 00:45:11,716 --> 00:45:14,556 Speaker 3: any luck, and you can find a place to stay. 628 00:45:14,716 --> 00:45:17,036 Speaker 3: That's what she says to the hitchhikers when they get in, 629 00:45:17,076 --> 00:45:20,596 Speaker 3: because she's like, we the drivers of the pickup feel 630 00:45:20,996 --> 00:45:23,116 Speaker 3: bad that it's pouring rain. But we're really not in 631 00:45:23,156 --> 00:45:27,316 Speaker 3: the mood for hitchhikers. So it's like we're come on in, 632 00:45:27,436 --> 00:45:30,676 Speaker 3: but we're not going far. So we're telling you now, 633 00:45:30,716 --> 00:45:33,276 Speaker 3: it's not a long ride, you know, it's the rain 634 00:45:33,276 --> 00:45:35,316 Speaker 3: will stop. You can go and find a place to stay. 635 00:45:35,716 --> 00:45:40,676 Speaker 3: At the end of the story, the ringing strings, the 636 00:45:40,756 --> 00:45:45,676 Speaker 3: thought that God turns music into bliss, we left to 637 00:45:45,716 --> 00:45:49,836 Speaker 3: pick up in the driveway the moon. The moon appeared 638 00:45:49,876 --> 00:45:53,516 Speaker 3: as amber and the mist, so that the mist becomes 639 00:45:53,556 --> 00:45:57,556 Speaker 3: another meaning from the first time it's used. Things like 640 00:45:57,596 --> 00:46:02,836 Speaker 3: that as a songwriter are satisfying because it came together. 641 00:46:03,356 --> 00:46:05,996 Speaker 3: I'm always trying to make it come together, but doesn't 642 00:46:06,356 --> 00:46:07,876 Speaker 3: It doesn't happen all the time. 643 00:46:08,236 --> 00:46:11,756 Speaker 2: The emotional range in that song is what I was 644 00:46:11,996 --> 00:46:14,356 Speaker 2: was what you're alluding to now, is that's what drew me. 645 00:46:14,476 --> 00:46:16,996 Speaker 2: We have the generosity mixed with reluctance, which is a 646 00:46:17,596 --> 00:46:20,636 Speaker 2: you know, one kind of emotion. We meet these two 647 00:46:20,676 --> 00:46:24,676 Speaker 2: people and they're broken, these kids, they're like on the 648 00:46:24,756 --> 00:46:27,796 Speaker 2: ruts there, and then we end on this kind of 649 00:46:28,116 --> 00:46:32,596 Speaker 2: with the beauty of that image of the mist. I mean, 650 00:46:32,596 --> 00:46:35,196 Speaker 2: it's like this song in what I was saying, the 651 00:46:35,276 --> 00:46:37,796 Speaker 2: efficient I mean efficiency is a terrible word to use here, 652 00:46:37,796 --> 00:46:43,316 Speaker 2: but the idea that in a in that compact segment, 653 00:46:43,796 --> 00:46:48,516 Speaker 2: you can range through these this variety of emotions and 654 00:46:48,556 --> 00:46:50,956 Speaker 2: make us feel all of those things that you're going. 655 00:46:51,236 --> 00:46:55,676 Speaker 3: Well, you say they're broken, they appear to be broken. 656 00:46:56,556 --> 00:47:00,636 Speaker 3: You know. My boy and may wear refugees of sorts 657 00:47:00,676 --> 00:47:04,676 Speaker 3: from my hometown. They're all like different there. They would 658 00:47:04,716 --> 00:47:09,276 Speaker 3: have modis down, modus down, you know, like weeds. So 659 00:47:09,316 --> 00:47:12,116 Speaker 3: they seem like they're broken. He doesn't talk much anymore, 660 00:47:12,196 --> 00:47:15,796 Speaker 3: just to the voices in his head. But really they're 661 00:47:15,836 --> 00:47:20,516 Speaker 3: seekers of spiritual bliss. You know, the sacred horror that 662 00:47:20,636 --> 00:47:23,876 Speaker 3: David played to make his songs of praise. We long 663 00:47:23,996 --> 00:47:26,716 Speaker 3: to hear those strings that set as hard a blaze. 664 00:47:28,316 --> 00:47:33,196 Speaker 3: They're the enlightened pair. Really, it's an interesting story. 665 00:47:33,276 --> 00:47:38,556 Speaker 2: I thought, Oh, it's it's it's it's gorgeous, it's it's odd. 666 00:47:38,556 --> 00:47:40,116 Speaker 2: It's the one that I mean, it's someone who was 667 00:47:40,196 --> 00:47:42,796 Speaker 2: raising the church. It's it's the one. It's the song. 668 00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:46,476 Speaker 2: It's the most kind of explicitly biblical. It's a yeah, 669 00:47:46,716 --> 00:47:50,996 Speaker 2: really you could turn that into a hymn. It could 670 00:47:51,036 --> 00:47:51,916 Speaker 2: be sung in a church. 671 00:47:52,956 --> 00:47:54,796 Speaker 3: I get a lot of pleasure of somebody. If that 672 00:47:54,996 --> 00:47:59,756 Speaker 3: was if it did find its way into that environment, 673 00:48:00,636 --> 00:48:01,036 Speaker 3: I'd like. 674 00:48:01,076 --> 00:48:04,236 Speaker 2: That that would give you a lot of pleasure because 675 00:48:04,436 --> 00:48:05,356 Speaker 2: they would recognize it. 676 00:48:05,476 --> 00:48:09,756 Speaker 3: I like when songs go to different places. I like 677 00:48:09,796 --> 00:48:14,516 Speaker 3: it when different communities of people hear something that they 678 00:48:14,596 --> 00:48:19,876 Speaker 3: identify within a song. It means that you can read 679 00:48:19,996 --> 00:48:25,556 Speaker 3: different things into it, and it's something that as a songwriter, 680 00:48:26,116 --> 00:48:28,516 Speaker 3: you would hope to achieve that. It's that something would 681 00:48:28,516 --> 00:48:33,636 Speaker 3: appeal to many, many people on a personal level, and 682 00:48:33,716 --> 00:48:41,196 Speaker 3: that personal interpretation would be quite different along the spectrum 683 00:48:41,236 --> 00:48:46,476 Speaker 3: of the of the listeners. That would be a successful song. 684 00:48:47,156 --> 00:48:52,116 Speaker 3: And it happens naturally with every song because as I've said, 685 00:48:52,156 --> 00:48:55,156 Speaker 3: as we said, and when we had our long conversation, 686 00:48:55,916 --> 00:48:59,356 Speaker 3: one of the things was that I believe that the 687 00:48:59,436 --> 00:49:05,036 Speaker 3: listener completes the song. They hear it, They take in 688 00:49:05,116 --> 00:49:07,836 Speaker 3: the meaning on a personal level may not be the 689 00:49:07,876 --> 00:49:11,116 Speaker 3: meaning that I intended. They even change the words in 690 00:49:11,156 --> 00:49:15,796 Speaker 3: their mind. When people sometimes repeat the words that there 691 00:49:15,836 --> 00:49:18,036 Speaker 3: are their favorite words to me of the songs, it's 692 00:49:18,076 --> 00:49:21,436 Speaker 3: not what I wrote, but it's what they heard. That's 693 00:49:21,516 --> 00:49:24,436 Speaker 3: what it is. That's what the listener completes the song. 694 00:49:25,236 --> 00:49:28,076 Speaker 3: So if this song was sung in an environment that 695 00:49:28,436 --> 00:49:30,836 Speaker 3: it was a church environment, it would have a certain 696 00:49:31,716 --> 00:49:33,796 Speaker 3: a certain kind of meaning. If it was sung in 697 00:49:33,836 --> 00:49:37,316 Speaker 3: a different place, it would have a different, different meaning. 698 00:49:38,116 --> 00:49:41,196 Speaker 3: That's good. It's good because it does. It does have 699 00:49:41,516 --> 00:49:42,796 Speaker 3: a choice of meanings. 700 00:49:44,676 --> 00:49:48,636 Speaker 2: Was the production of this record different than previous records? 701 00:49:48,636 --> 00:49:51,476 Speaker 2: Were you more? Was it more exhaustive? 702 00:49:52,236 --> 00:49:52,436 Speaker 4: No? 703 00:49:52,436 --> 00:49:57,076 Speaker 3: No, no, it was the same. It's the same. This 704 00:49:57,276 --> 00:50:01,236 Speaker 3: was just a different animal, that's all. It's not exhausting anyway. 705 00:50:02,036 --> 00:50:05,076 Speaker 3: It's not exhausting, and I don't get bored with doing 706 00:50:05,116 --> 00:50:08,356 Speaker 3: things over and over and over again. It's not even 707 00:50:08,356 --> 00:50:11,076 Speaker 3: the thought that enters my mind this is boring. It's 708 00:50:12,516 --> 00:50:17,076 Speaker 3: you're searching for something that you can hear, but you haven't. 709 00:50:18,156 --> 00:50:22,756 Speaker 3: I haven't attained yet, so you really get interested in 710 00:50:22,796 --> 00:50:27,196 Speaker 3: the in the pursuit. It's not boring. It's not exhausting 711 00:50:27,196 --> 00:50:30,676 Speaker 3: at all. It's I mean, it's really when you're hot 712 00:50:30,716 --> 00:50:35,436 Speaker 3: on the trail, it's really exhilarating. And it's part of 713 00:50:35,476 --> 00:50:40,156 Speaker 3: what makes me like to do this and why I've 714 00:50:40,196 --> 00:50:44,076 Speaker 3: spent my whole life doing it. I really enjoy it, 715 00:50:44,316 --> 00:50:48,436 Speaker 3: and when I get it right for myself, then I 716 00:50:48,436 --> 00:50:51,396 Speaker 3: get a little blast of dopamine in my brain and 717 00:50:51,476 --> 00:50:54,436 Speaker 3: I'm addicted. I want it again. 718 00:50:57,876 --> 00:51:00,116 Speaker 1: Thanks to Paul Simon for taking us behind the making 719 00:51:00,156 --> 00:51:03,556 Speaker 1: of his newest album, Seven Songs. Be sure to check 720 00:51:03,596 --> 00:51:07,276 Speaker 1: out the audio original Miracle and Wonder Conversations with Paul 721 00:51:07,356 --> 00:51:11,116 Speaker 1: Simon to hear more about Paul's a brilliant career. You 722 00:51:11,116 --> 00:51:13,836 Speaker 1: can find it at audible dot com or at pushkin 723 00:51:13,916 --> 00:51:17,676 Speaker 1: dot fm. And again, we're releasing a new version of 724 00:51:17,716 --> 00:51:20,476 Speaker 1: that book, along with a brand new chapter about Seven 725 00:51:20,516 --> 00:51:25,156 Speaker 1: Psalms this fall. You can hear Paul's new album Seven Psalms, 726 00:51:25,196 --> 00:51:27,436 Speaker 1: along with all of our favorite songs of his on 727 00:51:27,476 --> 00:51:31,356 Speaker 1: a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. You can 728 00:51:31,356 --> 00:51:34,796 Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash 729 00:51:34,836 --> 00:51:37,516 Speaker 1: broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our 730 00:51:37,556 --> 00:51:41,796 Speaker 1: new episodes. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, 731 00:51:41,996 --> 00:51:47,516 Speaker 1: Jason Gambrel, Ben Talliday, Nisha Venkat, Jordan McMillan, and Eric Sandler. 732 00:51:48,116 --> 00:51:52,436 Speaker 1: Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production 733 00:51:52,556 --> 00:51:55,316 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others 734 00:51:55,316 --> 00:52:00,036 Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 735 00:52:00,076 --> 00:52:04,036 Speaker 1: a podcast subscription service that offers bonus content and uninterrupted 736 00:52:04,156 --> 00:52:07,076 Speaker 1: ad free listening for only four ninety nine a month. 737 00:52:07,836 --> 00:52:12,196 Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin plus Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you 738 00:52:12,276 --> 00:52:14,676 Speaker 1: like the show, remember to share, rate, and review us 739 00:52:14,796 --> 00:52:17,996 Speaker 1: on your podcast staff. Our the Music exp by Kenny Beats. 740 00:52:18,436 --> 00:52:19,356 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.