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Speaker 1: Football has always featured heavily in the British political landscape,

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Speaker 1: but this week those discussions have come to a head

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Speaker 1: over a shirt. Fans and politicians are wading into the

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Speaker 1: debate about the new England football men's kit, which has

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Speaker 1: stirred up questions of identity, race, and political leanings. It

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Speaker 1: all started when Nike launched an updated shirt for the

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Speaker 1: Yuro twenty twenty four tournament that starts in June. The

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Speaker 1: design has stirred controversy thanks to what Nike calls a

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Speaker 1: playful update to the Saint George's cross, usually a red

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Speaker 1: cross on a white background, Nike has added navy, light blue,

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Speaker 1: and purple to the traditional red, with the cross featuring

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Speaker 1: at the back of the shirts collar. Now, despite the

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Speaker 1: company's intentions, the changes have sparked fury from some who

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Speaker 1: see it as disrespectful to the symbol of England and

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Speaker 1: others who argue that it is an important reflection of

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Speaker 1: a diverse society. There's also the cost factor. Nike is

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Speaker 1: Euro's twenty twenty four kit. The authentic version is priced

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Speaker 1: at almost one hundred and twenty five pounds for adults.

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Speaker 1: That is about one hundred and fifty eight dollars if

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Speaker 1: you want to be able to wear what the player

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Speaker 1: is on the picture wearing. Now, the Opposition leader Keir

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Speaker 1: Starmer is calling on Nike two reconsider its design, adding

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Speaker 1: that the flag doesn't need to be changed. He has

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Speaker 1: been joined by other Westminster political voices, including the UK's

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Speaker 1: Culture Secretary Lucy Fraser and even the Prime Minister, who

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Speaker 1: is appealing to the brand not to change the England flag.

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Speaker 1: Now we've been discussing this furory with someone who knows

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Speaker 1: a fair bit about the relationship between sports and identity.

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Speaker 1: Any Hola Aluko is a British Nigerian football executive, broadcaster

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Speaker 1: and former player herself. She won one hundred and two

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Speaker 1: England can during her career, which spaed from two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one to twenty nineteen, and Luco is no stranger

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Speaker 1: to being on the receiving end of abuse either. In

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, she accused the England women's team manager at

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Speaker 1: the time, Mark Sampson, of directing racist remarks towards her,

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Speaker 1: and more recently, a Luco faced what many saw as

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Speaker 1: deeply offensive criticism from fellow pundit and retired player Joey Barton.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's James Wilcock and I began our conversation by asking

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Speaker 1: Luco what she thinks of Nike's new kit for England's

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Speaker 1: men's squad for the Euros twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: We live in a world where brands are changing kits

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Speaker 2: all the time, you know, in a playful, fashionable way

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Speaker 2: that is to be worn by many diverse groups of

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Speaker 2: people who support the England teams. You know, it's not

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Speaker 2: a surprise to me to see this. The England team,

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Speaker 2: particularly the men's team, is incredibly diverse and incredibly inclusive.

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Speaker 2: So why would a flag, you know, a playful update

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Speaker 2: on a flag not reflect that. I think what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing is what's happening in the in the UK right now,

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Speaker 2: which is just very sort of polarized, divisive, nationalistic sentiments

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Speaker 2: coming out against any form of inclusivity or any form

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Speaker 2: of diversity that is prominent in sports. And that's what

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Speaker 2: I think is this is about.

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Speaker 1: So you don't agree then with you know, Kis Starmer

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Speaker 1: saying that actually it's not something that the fans want.

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Speaker 1: Others have said this, that it's not something that the

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Speaker 1: fans are looking for. You disagree with.

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Speaker 2: That, well, I mean, I don't think a lot of

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Speaker 2: shirts have always been created based on what the fans want.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's you know, Nike have decided to design

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Speaker 2: this based on unifying fans, and you know, I think

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Speaker 2: what we're hearing is certain fans want it, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I'm an England fan. That doesn't represent me. I

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Speaker 2: think it's I think it's fine. So I think we

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Speaker 2: give prominence sometimes to what certain fans are saying and

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Speaker 2: not what others. If you did a whole pole of

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Speaker 2: England fans across the country, it might see it might

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Speaker 2: turn out that people are bothered about the placeful updates.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we've identified the two sort of words

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Speaker 3: that matter here, which are representation and unity. Because I mean,

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Speaker 3: kiss Starmer. He told the son that this sort of

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Speaker 3: symbol is a unifier, sort of the as original unplayed

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Speaker 3: with sort of Saint George's cross, and then you say,

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Speaker 3: kind of, in some ways it's about representing the Nike

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Speaker 3: sort of symbol is trying to represent a broad array

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Speaker 3: of people. I mean, this is kind of the question

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Speaker 3: of what is that relationship between identity and symbols. I

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Speaker 3: don't know, like, do you think that the flag needs

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Speaker 3: to remain the same to speak to a broader range

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Speaker 3: of people, or do you feel that like this was

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Speaker 3: a completely understandable thing to do, because I mean, do

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Speaker 3: you see what Kis Starmer is aiming there?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Kirstarma would also understand that the flag,

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Speaker 2: the St. George's flag, in the way that the original St.

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Speaker 2: George's flag actually creates a certain negative emotion for some

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Speaker 2: people too, in terms of, you know, the nationalistic connotations

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Speaker 2: to it. Now you know, I live in England and

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Speaker 2: have done my whole life as a black woman. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: that flag has been used, you know, to support racist

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Speaker 2: sentiments against me. So at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: you know, whether it's the original St. George's flag or

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Speaker 2: the updated version that is meant to unify and represent diversity,

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Speaker 2: inclusion for what is a diverse and inclusive United Kingdom,

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Speaker 2: whether people like it or not. We have a diverse

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Speaker 2: and inclusive United Kingdom full of people who represent the

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Speaker 2: country who are not you know, who are you know, immigrants,

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Speaker 2: including the people who play on the pitch and represent England.

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Speaker 4: So I don't see why this is so so so

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Speaker 4: far off it the people on the pitch, the England

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Speaker 4: men seam on the pitch who everybody's going to be

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Speaker 4: supporting in the summer are made up of a diverse

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Speaker 4: range of men.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in the flag okay, And indeed I think

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Speaker 1: it is, you know, quite a fascinating fact. I'm one

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Speaker 1: in six people in the UK. Now are people you

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Speaker 1: know who started life somewhere else, born somewhere else and

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Speaker 1: are now in the UK. So the UK is a

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Speaker 1: very diverse country. As you say, you played under the

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Speaker 1: Saint George's across one hundred and two times. How important

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Speaker 1: to you then is it as a symbol, because you know,

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Speaker 1: is it meaningful? Does it raise something important for you

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Speaker 1: that it's that it's changed?

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Speaker 2: Is it? You know?

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Speaker 1: How do you see that? Were you uncomfortable you using

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Speaker 1: that flag? As you say a lot of people see

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Speaker 1: the Saint George's Cross, as you say, is sometimes quite conflicted.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was very proud to represent England. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to make it I don't want to

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Speaker 2: be I want to be very clear about that. I

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Speaker 2: was very proud to play for England and you know

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Speaker 2: the flag was something that I wore on my shirt

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Speaker 2: very proudly like everybody else. It wasn't something though that

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Speaker 2: I felt could never ever be changed. You know, passport

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Speaker 2: colors just changed recently, and you know, we all have

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Speaker 2: to get on with it, you know, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think you know, whether the flag stays in its original state,

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Speaker 2: whether it changes. I think ultimately there's a deeper issue here,

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Speaker 2: which is diversity and inclusion in the United Kingdom, and

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Speaker 2: some you know, Nike is making an attempt to reflect that,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that things changing should mean that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it should never be done. The flag has changed, it's

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Speaker 2: a playful update to represent diversity inclusion in this country.

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Speaker 2: The players on the pitch represent that too, by the way,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's hell. I think it's important to

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Speaker 2: reflect that. Now. If they want to change it back

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Speaker 2: to the original color, fine, you know, there's lots of

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Speaker 2: people that think that's great too. But let's not demonize

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Speaker 2: diversity inclusion. Let's not keep demonizing those changes, because it's

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Speaker 2: very dangerous when you start saying anything that represents divers

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Speaker 2: and inclusion is woke, anything that represents diversion inclusion is bad.

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Speaker 2: That makes nobody like me, a black woman who's represented

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Speaker 2: Englin one hundred and two times feel negative. That's a

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Speaker 2: negative message to somebody like me.

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Speaker 1: And indeed it's subtle, isn't it. It's quite layered because

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Speaker 1: Nike also says this is both both about inclusivity and

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Speaker 1: about diversity, but also about throwing back and recalling England's history,

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Speaker 1: because they've talked about those colors being the training giar

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Speaker 1: that was worn by the ninety six England World Cup

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Speaker 1: winning team at least in their training. So they also

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Speaker 1: kind of have brought in a number of elements. So

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Speaker 1: it's layer, doesn't it, James.

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Speaker 3: It is. I mean they would sort of point to

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Speaker 3: that kit being sort of a historical thing before they

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Speaker 3: would bring up diversity. Caroline, I mean any of that. Look,

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Speaker 3: you are an extremely storied England player, but you're also

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Speaker 3: a football executive. You know, you have a career outside

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Speaker 3: of just playing the game. Do you see this as

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Speaker 3: good business for Nike and for the England team?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that will depend on the

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Speaker 2: amount of people that want to buy the shirt without

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Speaker 2: you know, not necessarily you know, having any opposition to

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Speaker 2: the change of the flag. I mean that's yet to see.

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Speaker 2: I know there's a position out against this, But you know,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes we amplify the loud minority forgetting that

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Speaker 2: actually there's lots of people like me who don't really

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Speaker 2: you know, don't put that much emphasis on the flag

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Speaker 2: on the back of the shirt. We just support England

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Speaker 2: as we always have done, and we support the diverse

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Speaker 2: players on the pitch and that's what they represent. So

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Speaker 2: whether it's a good business case, I don't know. But look,

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Speaker 2: in sport, shirts are updated all of the time, like literally.

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Speaker 1: All the time, So get it into perspective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's not like, oh my god, what unlike

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Speaker 2: you doing, Like they've changed the shirt.

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Speaker 4: Like as football shirts are.

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Speaker 2: Changed all the time. And guess what when football shirts

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Speaker 2: are changed, lots of fans sometimes don't like it and

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Speaker 2: they make that known. You know, this this feels no

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Speaker 2: different to me. It just seems like there's quite a

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Speaker 2: nationalistic element to it that I think we need to

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Speaker 2: really really be careful of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, this kit is for the Euros twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The last Championship saw England players like Marcus Rashford receive

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Speaker 1: a torrent of racist abuse after England lost in that final.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that you know how much is English

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Speaker 1: football moving on with its problem with racism? There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of support for Rashford, but the racist abuse

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Speaker 1: was so significant. How much is that changing do you

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Speaker 1: think in English football?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it's changing. I think it's

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Speaker 2: still there and you wouldn't be surprised that, you know,

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Speaker 2: if we if we were to do an analysis of

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Speaker 2: the same people who are very angry about the diversity

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Speaker 2: and Inclusive flag are the same people that probably go

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Speaker 2: to England games and when Marcus Rashford or by Kayak

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Speaker 2: and miss the penalty racially abused him. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a link there and that's just the reality. That's the

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Speaker 2: same called reality of it. Now, what happens to those

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Speaker 2: people when they they decide to racially abuse English players

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Speaker 2: is what I care more about. So punishments, consequences, bands,

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Speaker 2: you can will come to an England game again. If

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Speaker 2: you're online racially abusing players, you can never You will

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Speaker 2: be arrested and the digital police will will will find you.

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Speaker 2: That's what I care about, and that's where I think

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Speaker 2: progress has to be made and continue to be made

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we are punishing and we are

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Speaker 2: highlighting that there is no tolerance whatsoever for racism against

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Speaker 2: England players who represent the country any other I.

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Speaker 3: Want to come back to something you were saying about

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Speaker 3: who this whole conversation is speaking to, and you were

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Speaker 3: saying you weren't sure that Kiss Starmer is speaking to

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Speaker 3: black women like you. We've been talking a lot on

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Speaker 3: this podcast in recent weeks about the position of women

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Speaker 3: in color in public life. You know, we've recently seen

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Speaker 3: comments from Tory Dona Frank Hester about Dan Abbotts. We've

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Speaker 3: seen the Duran Laurence saying that she is Labour's race

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Speaker 3: advisor doesn't feel listened to. Do you feel to ask

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Speaker 3: you directly that Kiss Starmer is speaking to people like you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think Kiers Starmer, you know, I

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Speaker 2: like this. I think a lot of what he has

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Speaker 2: said in terms of what the direction of the country is,

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Speaker 2: you know, I agree with it of it's valid. I

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Speaker 2: think when it comes to race relations, there's probably more

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Speaker 2: agreements across party than there is disagreements. And I think

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Speaker 2: the recognition, the recent recognition that actually it is absolutely

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Speaker 2: unacceptable to have Tory donors a Tory donor, Frank Hester

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Speaker 2: suggesting that Dian Abbott, a black woman in public life

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Speaker 2: should be shot that that in itself means that I

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Speaker 2: feel safe or safer that politicians are calling it out

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Speaker 2: for what it is and are suggesting that the consequences

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Speaker 2: need to come of it. So, you know, there are

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Speaker 2: always things that you'll disagree on with, you know, with

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Speaker 2: with politics, and there's some things you agree on. And

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Speaker 2: that's where do I stand with Jeff Arma. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think there's some great things that he says on

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Speaker 2: this occasion with regards to the flag. I don't agree

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Speaker 2: because I don't think there's anything wrong with representing diverse

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Speaker 2: and inclusion in the UK. It's a very important issue

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Speaker 2: and as I've said, it go back to it the

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Speaker 2: players on the pitch that we're going to be cheering

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Speaker 2: represent diversity inclusions on.

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Speaker 3: That though this whole debate, you yourself have faced a

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Speaker 3: lot of abuse in the public just in recent weeks.

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Speaker 3: In fact, we've seen you know, MPs like Dan Abbert

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Speaker 3: do get massive amounts of public abuse as a high

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Speaker 3: profile successful black women. Do you think we need to

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Speaker 3: change the way we have these kinds of conversations, especially

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Speaker 3: heading into a general action where there it's going to

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Speaker 3: be massive amounts of social media conversations, lots of abuse,

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Speaker 3: fake news thrown around. Do you think we need to

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Speaker 3: have to have a conversation about how we address that,

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Speaker 3: deal with it, what kind of laws there are around it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't actually think you can deal with these

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Speaker 2: things without calling it out and without amplifying it to

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Speaker 2: some extent. That's the only way that the people guilty

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Speaker 2: of it how responsible. So it's part of my strategy

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Speaker 2: and tactic, often particularly online, to expose these people and

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Speaker 2: to say, well, you know, here we are this man

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Speaker 2: or this woman has said, you know this racist thing

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Speaker 2: to me, have a look at it. Everybody have a look,

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Speaker 2: and then that person, you know, quickly deletes their accounts

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Speaker 2: or deletes the comments. So you know, in life, if

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Speaker 2: you do something wrong and you face the consequences.

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Speaker 4: Of it, everybody else looks at that and goes, well,

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Speaker 4: I'm not going.

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Speaker 2: To do that. And that's that's that's that's.

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Speaker 4: Where we're at.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is too easy at this moment in time,

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Speaker 2: particularly on x on social media, to racially abuse, use

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Speaker 2: sexist and misogialistic language towards black women, And the way

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Speaker 2: to deal with that is to identify who these people

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Speaker 2: are hiding behind these accounts to call it out and

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Speaker 2: so everybody understands what racism is, and everybody understands what

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Speaker 2: sexism of misogyny is and hold those people responsible in accouncil.

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Speaker 1: That was any Honor Aluko, who is the British Nigerian

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Speaker 1: football former player, currently executive and broadcaster, speaking to us

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio to Bloomberg's James Wilcock and I