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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.

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Speaker 2: It is Monday, January fifth, and that was a hell

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Speaker 2: of a first court appearance from the now austitt former

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Speaker 2: president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro and his wife. And with that,

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Speaker 2: welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. This is

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Speaker 2: just wrapping up as we are coming on here as

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Speaker 2: of this recording. But as of this recording rose, we

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Speaker 2: should mention that Maduro is still in route back to jail.

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Speaker 2: So this is just happening. I don't know what we

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Speaker 2: were expecting, but I wasn't expecting what we got.

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Speaker 1: A few fireworks, it was.

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Speaker 3: It was interesting, interesting outside of the court. What was

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 4: He was interesting what was happening inside of the court,

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Speaker 4: and just how quickly it's all taken place from the

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Speaker 4: abduction this weekend that we were all shocked by seeing

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Speaker 4: him and his wife standing there before a federal judge

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Speaker 4: in Lower Manhattan.

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Speaker 3: It's surreal.

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Speaker 1: Remind I keep messing this up. I asked you earlier.

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Speaker 2: It was Friday night into Saturday thing. He was taking

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Speaker 2: a Saturday and Friday night. Friday night into Saturday, so

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Speaker 2: early Saturday morning he went to bed Friday night in Caraka,

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Speaker 2: says the President of Venezuela. He is in our neighborhood

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Speaker 2: today in prison garb making court appearances in the same

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Speaker 2: damn courthouse that Didty's trial took place a matter of

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Speaker 2: months ago. This is why it was.

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Speaker 4: Weird to be watching the same entrance that we were

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Speaker 4: waiting to see Diddy and Ditty's family walking out of

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Speaker 4: We've walked by that court a million times when that

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Speaker 4: trial was going on, just to see it all now

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Speaker 4: take place again, but in very different circumstances with much

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Speaker 4: larger implications.

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Speaker 1: Let's get you caught up here, folks.

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Speaker 2: We were all talking about this earlier, but yes, it's

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Speaker 2: been an extraordinary certainly weekend a few days, but also

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Speaker 2: a few hours. Nicholas Maduro and his wife Cecilia were

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Speaker 2: taken from the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 2: the federal prison and brought over to the Federal Courthouse

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Speaker 2: and Lower Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: This was all this morning.

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Speaker 2: The court appearance was at noon Eastern time, but they

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Speaker 2: started their journey, and as New Yorkers we kind of

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Speaker 2: understand this. We were looking, why are they leaving so

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Speaker 2: early from Brooklyn at seven o'clock in the morning for

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Speaker 2: a noon appearance, and well, if you live in New York,

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Speaker 2: maybe it makes sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably what is it a mile at most

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Speaker 4: probably between those two sites. But yes, there was a

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Speaker 4: helicopter and then there was an armored vehicle, all to

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Speaker 4: avoid perhaps yes, some of the traffic issues allah the

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Speaker 4: Brooklyn Bridge, but also safety concerns. There were a lot

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Speaker 4: of people who were waiting and had been lining up

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Speaker 4: outside of the courthouse just to be a part of this.

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Speaker 4: A lot of folks who are from Venezuela, who traveled

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Speaker 4: actually from parts of the US to be just near

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Speaker 4: where this was all taking place. Some for some against

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Speaker 4: United States dead, but a lot of passionate folks outside

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Speaker 4: that courthouse waiting to see what happened inside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was it did happen inside that same courthouse.

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Speaker 2: They just give you a sense of you're not living

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Speaker 2: in this area. This we're at the very tip of Manhattan,

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Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan, the financial district. But you have, yes, a

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Speaker 2: lot of yes, you got Wall Street and you got

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Speaker 2: all those big companies and money down here, but you

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Speaker 2: have the court system down here. And there was just

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Speaker 2: a little area down here again tip of Manhattan, where

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Speaker 2: this cluster of government buildings are. That is where he

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Speaker 2: made his first court appearance with his wife. We did

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Speaker 2: hear ropes officially what the charges are, and he's facing

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Speaker 2: four pretty serious charges here.

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Speaker 4: Yes, the first and perhaps most serious the narco terrorism

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Speaker 4: conspiracy charge. Then there's a cocaine importation conspiracy charge, possession

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Speaker 4: of machine guns and destructive devices, and then conspiracy to

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Speaker 4: possess machine guns and destructive devices. So those are the

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Speaker 4: four charges that Maduro and his wife Celia are facing.

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Speaker 2: And by all accounts, trial of trial not there yet.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me, sorry, misspoke. By all accounts, court did start,

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Speaker 2: this hearing did start right on time. He walks in

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Speaker 2: with his wife again, both wearing prison garb if you will,

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Speaker 2: tan pants, orange shoes he was in had a blue

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Speaker 2: some kind of shirt over another tan shirt, but he

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Speaker 2: was in prison garb. His wife was as well. They

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Speaker 2: were seated at the same table, a couple of seats

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Speaker 2: down from each other. And look, before they even got

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Speaker 2: into the court room. You just mentioned robe. The scene

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Speaker 2: outside and it was almost reminiscent in some degree of

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Speaker 2: what we saw during Diddy. People were out there and

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Speaker 2: it was an atmosphere almost carnival like at times at

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Speaker 2: least for that one today, maybe a different tone, but

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Speaker 2: still people were being loud and being hurt.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and there were two defiant sides. There was the

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Speaker 4: one side that had signs that read things like thank

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Speaker 4: you President Donald Trump, Venezuela Freedom, people singing the Venezuelan

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Speaker 4: national anthem, cheering that Madua and his wife finally were apprehended.

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Speaker 4: Then there was another large crowd that felt quite the opposite,

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Speaker 4: supporting Maduro, saying free President Maduro, Free President Maduro and

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Speaker 4: his wife Celia so and the first ladies. So these

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Speaker 4: two factions, more than one hundred folks gathered around and

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Speaker 4: peacefully but definitely letting their feelings be known.

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Speaker 2: And someone let their feelings be known in the courtroom

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Speaker 2: as well. There was a bit of a clash between

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Speaker 2: Maduro and I don't want to call it a protest

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Speaker 2: or at least an observer in the courtroom. We will

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Speaker 2: get into that. It was pretty much the last thing

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Speaker 2: that happened at the end of the hearing today. But

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Speaker 2: Robes he and his wife both did enter not guilty, please,

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't that simple.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 4: They obviously they don't know how and wouldn't have had

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Speaker 4: the experience of knowing how the court system works here

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Speaker 4: in this country, so it was interesting. You know, they're

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Speaker 4: learning as they go. They have two very high powered

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Speaker 4: lawyers by their sides, which we'll get into in a second.

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Speaker 4: But the judge starts off just asking them the simple

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Speaker 4: question to identify yourself. Normally a defendant would just give

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Speaker 4: their name. No, that's not what happened in this case.

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Speaker 4: Maduro said, I am the president of Venezuela. I was

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Speaker 4: captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. He said this

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Speaker 4: all in Spanish, and the first Lady also made a

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Speaker 4: point to say, I am the first Lady of the

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Speaker 4: Republic of Venezuela. But then when they were asked to

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Speaker 4: give their please, they didn't just go with the not guilty.

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Speaker 3: They added a few words.

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Speaker 2: You know, and I saw this headline initially, but he said,

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Speaker 2: I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I

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Speaker 2: am still the president of my country. Now for us,

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Speaker 2: in this country, at least Robes, we have seen defendants

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Speaker 2: get immediately lashed by a judge. No, all I need

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Speaker 2: to hear is guilty or not guilty. You don't need

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Speaker 2: to explain anything. I don't this is going to be

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Speaker 2: interesting because of Spanish judge. It's not, as far as

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Speaker 2: I know, a native is not a Spanish speaker. The

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Speaker 2: Maduros have time to say a lot before the judge

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Speaker 2: ever gets to translate it in his ear. This is

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Speaker 2: going to be a thing. He had time now, and

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Speaker 2: he might and all these hearings they might have time

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Speaker 2: to make statements unless the judge clamps down on this.

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Speaker 2: But this is why we got so many words, because

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Speaker 2: the judge couldn't cut.

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Speaker 4: Off right because by the time, yeah, it takes a

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Speaker 4: little bit of a delay for the judge to hear

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Speaker 4: what they just said in Spanish for him to say, wait,

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Speaker 4: you can't say that. Otherwise he would have probably interrupted

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Speaker 4: them immediately. Because Celia Flores had the opportunity to say

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Speaker 4: not guilty, I'm completely innocent, so that usually is not

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Speaker 4: allowed as well. So they were both able at least

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Speaker 4: given the translation time that it took to add a

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Speaker 4: few extra things beyond not guilty.

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Speaker 2: And they're told usually don't say anything, shut up, don't

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Speaker 2: say anything. But a lot of observers are now looking

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Speaker 2: and say, this is going to be the key issue.

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Speaker 1: Forget what the charges are.

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Speaker 2: The key issue is going to be whether or not

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Speaker 2: they should be here in the first place, and they

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Speaker 2: were legally plucked, so we're maybe possibly seeing them already

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Speaker 2: with their wheels turned into why they make some of

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Speaker 2: these statements. They were informed, They said they didn't know

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Speaker 2: about a lot of their rights, Like you just said, Robes,

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Speaker 2: they don't know the American court system. But they did

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Speaker 2: get informed they do have the right to a consular visit,

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Speaker 2: and they said they would like to do that. Fine,

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Speaker 2: no bail at this time because they're not seeking it yet.

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Speaker 2: So apparently all this is just happening too fast. Like

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Speaker 2: even the lawyer was like, hey, we got our ducks

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Speaker 2: in a row, and the judge said, yeah, you can

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Speaker 2: do that application later, but right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I thought that was interesting that they didn't even have

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Speaker 4: time to even sit down and have a conversation or

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Speaker 4: at least a strategy and even asking for bail. Highly

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Speaker 4: unlikely that that would have been granted. So maybe they

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Speaker 4: just recognized that off the bat. But it's interesting you

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Speaker 4: do that, Robes, how do you give him bail?

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Speaker 1: Where's he gonna go? He's not legally in this country.

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Speaker 4: Maybe the only thing I get thinking of is if

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Speaker 4: he had to stay at Is there a Venezuelan embassy

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Speaker 4: here in New York or in DC?

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Speaker 3: Obviously there would be. I think, do we have that

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Speaker 3: kind of rapport with that country?

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Speaker 4: I don't even know what are Yeah, I wouldn't think

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Speaker 4: that we have envoys or embassies in each other's countries,

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Speaker 4: because that's how adversarial we are. I thought it was

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Speaker 4: interesting too, because the judge let Maduro and his wife

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Speaker 4: know that they are allowed if they can't afford, they

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Speaker 4: do have access to an attorney paid for by the

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Speaker 4: American people. They chose to retain their very high powered,

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Speaker 4: privately secured attorneys that they were able to. I was

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Speaker 4: just fascinate if they were able to secure attorneys.

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Speaker 3: I wonder what that.

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Speaker 4: Process is like when you are the president, or at

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Speaker 4: least the ousted president of Venezuela, how do you then

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Speaker 4: go about trying to find an American attorney.

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Speaker 3: I bet they had him in place, maybe they were anticipating.

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Speaker 2: Maybe for years even maybe yes, in touch with and

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Speaker 2: had all kinds of issues and this. You remember that

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Speaker 2: with Diddy, he'd been working with a lawyer for a year,

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Speaker 2: like Agnafillo, Oh who's this guy? He's got to know

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Speaker 2: they've been working together even before the arrest, So I

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Speaker 2: would guess that's the case. Mark Donnelly and Barry Pollack.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know the two names. Mark Donnelly is out

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Speaker 2: of Texas, Barry Pollack out of d C. He's the

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Speaker 2: one that's going to represent the first lady. But Mark Donnelly,

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Speaker 2: when I saw he represented Julian Massage.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was Barry Pollock who represented Julius.

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Speaker 2: Arry pollit to DC guy. I got him in or

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Speaker 2: out of order of my two people. Yes, Pollock was

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Speaker 2: the DC guy who's representing President correct. Donale is doing

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Speaker 2: the other and Pollock. When you hear that he represented

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Speaker 2: Julian Massage, you know how complicated an international legal.

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Speaker 1: Case that was.

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Speaker 3: I still don't even really know what happened there.

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Speaker 1: Can't keep it. I know Julian Lossange ain't in.

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Speaker 3: Jail exactly he did.

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Speaker 4: He is the man who at some point was responsible

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Speaker 4: for having him get his freedom back. And so yes,

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Speaker 4: I can understand perhaps why Nicholas Maduro would want someone

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Speaker 4: like that who has that sort of experience from an

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Speaker 4: international complex case.

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Speaker 3: This is the guy who has walked that walk before.

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Speaker 4: So that's a very solid choice for Maduro to have

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Speaker 4: Barry Pollock mart Donnelly. Don't know a lot about him,

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Speaker 4: just that he's a lawyer from Houston, from the Texas area.

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Speaker 3: But yes, don't know much more. But I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 3: find out.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure there's good reason why Celia Flores chose him

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Speaker 4: as her attorney.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks, stay here when we come back.

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Speaker 2: A move was made elsewhere in Switzerland, of all places,

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Speaker 2: they could have an impact on Madero and his future. Also,

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Speaker 2: we got worried about when the next court date will be.

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Speaker 2: Stay here, all right, folks, We continue here on Amy

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Speaker 2: and TJ. Just a short time ago. Former President. I

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Speaker 2: haven't even gotten this right or not. Is he the

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Speaker 2: former president? Is he the ousted president? Does he have

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Speaker 2: any presidential rights of any kind?

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Speaker 1: At this point?

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Speaker 4: Who gets to say? I mean, he says in court

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Speaker 4: that he is still the president. I think maybe the

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Speaker 4: best way to put it that I've seen written is

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Speaker 4: ousted president because he has been ousted, and we know

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Speaker 4: that the vice president is now called the acting president.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know that there is a correct term,

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Speaker 4: and it might depend on who you ask.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing.

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Speaker 2: What if I ask the people of Venezuela right, what

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Speaker 2: are their laws? What is their sovereignty. This is a

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Speaker 2: fascinating legal case, and this is what it's going to

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Speaker 2: boil down too. Before forget the charges. His lawyers are

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Speaker 2: only focused on whether or not he was legally taken,

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Speaker 2: if he should even be here.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's the first hurdle, because if they can

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Speaker 4: prove that he shouldn't legally be detained by the United States,

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Speaker 4: that we have no right as a country to hold him,

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Speaker 4: then the charges are moot.

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Speaker 3: Who cares?

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Speaker 2: But then the flip side of that is that our

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Speaker 2: justice system is only looking at the criminal charges like that, say,

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Speaker 2: my problem to decide whether or not he's legally here

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Speaker 2: and all this. You got somebody before me charge with

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Speaker 2: the crime. I am dealing with the criminal aspect.

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Speaker 1: What do you do? Who decides?

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Speaker 4: Because normally, internationally, if you're getting a fugitive to face

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Speaker 4: charges here in the United States, it's only through an

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Speaker 4: extradition policy that that country has with our country. He's

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Speaker 4: an agreement made, and there's an agreement and that's how

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Speaker 4: we proceed.

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Speaker 3: Clearly that's not the case in this situation.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know and Frankly, probably some of the

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Speaker 4: greatest legal minds would argue whether or not we have

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Speaker 4: a right to do this or not? What we have

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Speaker 4: a right, whether or not we can prosecute him here

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Speaker 4: in this country.

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Speaker 2: That's the argument, and everybody, everybody wants to go with

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Speaker 2: the Noriego not a Panama example, the same legal question

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Speaker 2: came up and the court said, that's not my problem.

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Speaker 2: How he got here. He's here, He's a criminal. These

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Speaker 2: are the charges. Are they going to look at Madero

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Speaker 2: the same?

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be fascinating. But March seventeenth is

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Speaker 2: his next scheduled court day. Now another one could come.

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Speaker 2: If they do ask for bail, if they want to

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Speaker 2: get him out, I guess something could change. So are

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Speaker 2: we're talking two months away? He's gonna sit in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: That's what I was just thinking.

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Speaker 4: I'm imagining Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, who

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Speaker 4: are very proud people. You could tell just from the

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Speaker 4: few moments we got to hear from them in court,

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Speaker 4: who are used to a certain way of living, a

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Speaker 4: certain way of being. He even asked the judge for

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Speaker 4: respect at one point about being able to keep his

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Speaker 4: notes and the judge seemed a little taken aback by

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Speaker 4: his tone even that.

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Speaker 3: But he has obviously.

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Speaker 4: A presidential way about him in certain level of expectations.

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Speaker 4: Can you imagine the two of them, with the way

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Speaker 4: they have lived their lives and how they have been

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Speaker 4: treated and how they are regarded, sitting in that notorious, yeah,

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Speaker 4: notoriously difficult, disgusting, dangerous prison in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: That seems insane.

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Speaker 2: I don't know they, I mean we high profile is

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Speaker 2: one thing, MANZIONI was over there, Maxwell was over there,

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Speaker 2: al Choppol was over there like you, notorious as hell.

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Speaker 2: But still this is a different dude. This is the

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Speaker 2: president of the sitting president. Now, other places the United

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Speaker 2: States don't recognize him as the legitimate leader. Does that

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Speaker 2: matter if we decide no, I'm not gonna accept you

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Speaker 2: as the president.

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm asking you so many legal questions we don't have

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Speaker 2: the answer to right now. The other thing in court

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Speaker 2: is he was leaving this confrontation, and again it was

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of Spanish, and I'm seeing different

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Speaker 2: places and different interpretations, But there was a guy apparently

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Speaker 2: in the back of the courtroom who stood up at

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Speaker 2: one time at the end as Maduro was leaving and

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Speaker 2: yelled at him, you're going to pay for this, and

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Speaker 2: Madero responded to him with something.

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Speaker 3: In Espanol, in Spanish, in.

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Speaker 2: Espaniel, and it's being interpreted saying in the name of God,

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Speaker 2: I will be free was the response.

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Speaker 1: At least that's one interpretation of how I went down. Wow.

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Speaker 4: But will he have the money to be able to

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Speaker 4: pay these high powered lawyers, because we got word today

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Speaker 4: as well that the Swiss government has frozen any assets

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Speaker 4: that Nicholas Maduro and any of the people close to

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Speaker 4: him held in Switzerland and those famous offshore accounts. A

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Speaker 4: total of thirty seven people have now had their assets

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Speaker 4: frozen by the Swiss government. That's very significant in terms

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Speaker 4: of their ability to do anything truly. Obviously, they need

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Speaker 4: to fund their defense, they need to fund perhaps just

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Speaker 4: planning how they're getting out and what will happen next.

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Speaker 4: So if you don't have money, if you don't have

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Speaker 4: access to your funds, that is severely limiting, you know what.

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Speaker 2: But anything we learned about dictators, they usually keep a

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Speaker 2: stash somewhere, don't they. You've seing this note here about

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Speaker 2: him saying Happy New Year to the reporters of the

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Speaker 2: courtroom in the world. By all accounts, he sounds crazy,

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Speaker 2: acted residential like, but all he carried himself in such

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Speaker 2: even respectful of the proceedings. To a certain degree, he

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Speaker 2: was almost like a politician.

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Speaker 4: Well, yes, he knows obviously at this point, I would

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Speaker 4: think he is aware of how polarizing President Trump is,

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Speaker 4: and perhaps he knows. Hey, you know, he most likely,

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Speaker 4: being the politician that he is, knows how to turn

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Speaker 4: on the charm when he needs to. He knows how

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Speaker 4: to lead and perhaps even how to manipulate, or at

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Speaker 4: least how to carry himself. And he probably doesn't know

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Speaker 4: how to be anything other than presidential and a grand

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Speaker 4: leader who should be maybe feared and respected. That's I'm

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Speaker 4: sure his mode of operation. So why change now? Even

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Speaker 4: if he's in prison clothing and handcuffed and shackled, he's

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Speaker 4: still acting like the president of Venezuela.

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Speaker 2: And the president of Venezuela is in a motor key

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Speaker 2: going from Manhattan to Brooklyn to the same prison that

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Speaker 2: held shall On Diddy Combs only a few short months ago.

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Speaker 2: This has been an extraordinary morning here in New York,

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Speaker 2: and it is going to be extraordinary a few weeks,

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Speaker 2: a few months, and who knows this could be years

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Speaker 2: in the making to watch, but the former president of

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Speaker 2: Venezuela made his first quarter appearance today, pled not guilty

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Speaker 2: to a number of charges related to his alleged narco

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Speaker 2: terrorism regime. And with that, folks, we always appreciate you

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Speaker 2: spending some time with us. Now, I'm TJ. Holmes On

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Speaker 2: behalf of my dear Amy Roboch.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk to you also