1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Nola is not here, 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: but we'll be returning shortly. They called me Ben. We 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: Control decads. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: to know. The abyss it said stairs back. Earlier this week, 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: we explored the tragic story of the Thilasne Street named 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Tasmanian Tiger, and we received some great stories from our 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realist. Thank you to every one, especially to 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: those of us living down under. Again, there have been 15 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: no living tigers captured or living in captivity since the 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: early nineteen thirties. And honestly, this was a depressing episode 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: for you and me both, Matt, because we love animals, 18 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: and we hang out with a kind of animal, the dog, 19 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: which has specifically evolved to be cool with humans. It's 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: nuts even down to like the way their eyebrow muscles move. 21 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: They understand pointing, which is hard for a lot of 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: other mammals some humans too, by the way. Uh, but 23 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: we were able to end on an up note sort of. 24 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: We did not use this word in our previous episode. 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: But there is a new kid on the technology block. 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: It's something that may fundamentally change the world in which 27 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: you live. It is called d extinction. And to get 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: to this we have to first understand extinction, what it is, 29 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: and why it occurs, indeed, why it has to occur. 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: Here are the facts. I think it's fair to say 31 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: that that first off, as strange as it is to 32 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: put it this way, extinction kind of gets a bad rap. 33 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely not a state you want to 34 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: be in. You don't want to find yourself in extinction. 35 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: But in order for species, you know, animal, plant, everything, 36 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: even viral, you must have extinction if you are to 37 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: have evolution, right, some things have to die off so 38 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: that the stuff that works can live on and prosper. 39 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: That's a well, that's that feels gross coming out of 40 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: my mouth, but that's just the way the system functions 41 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: as we understand it. Yeah, Well, put, extinction is the 42 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: dark side of evolution and at a certain point. As 43 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: you said, you cannot have one without the other. Extinctions, 44 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: both of single species and mass extinctions of multiple living 45 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: things have all occurred numerous times, way, way, way before 46 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: mammal's ever hit the scene. They all occurred, Uh, definitely, 47 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: way before the first ancestors of humans look down from 48 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: the trees and said, let's get in that grass and 49 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: stand up. What could go wrong? A lot of things, 50 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: snake snake bite, snake bites, the moment of a species extinction, 51 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to pin down, it turns out, 52 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: and this is this feeds the fire of a lot 53 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: of cryptid theories. You can generally say, okay, we'll call 54 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: an animal extinct when the last individual of its species dies. 55 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: And sometimes we can predict when this occurs. Uh. Let's say, 56 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: for instance, if all the wild examples of an animal 57 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: have died, and we know exactly how many are living 58 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: in captivity, and then you know, often the as the 59 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: population dwindles, the species overall will lose its ability to 60 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: breed and reproduce. There will be one last, lone creature 61 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: of its kind, and then we know the clock is ticking. 62 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: But it can be tough to figure out exactly when 63 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: something has died off, especially when we're talking about species 64 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: with a large range, like you know, it would be 65 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: and I don't want to be too dark here at 66 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: the top, but it would be relatively easy to predict 67 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: the extinction or to understand the extinction of a panda, 68 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: like our earlier example from this week, because pandas live 69 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: in an established range. Uh. The government of China knows 70 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: how many pandas exist. The pandas that are in activity 71 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: are still property of the Government of China. Contrast that 72 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: with something that is everywhere, like rats or grackles. No, 73 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: they're not everywhere, they're everywhere and often there. Yeah, no, yeah, 74 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely right. And in the case of the 75 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: Tasmanian tiger or the thilaccene, there are several places that 76 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: are very much wild as in UH, open natural area 77 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: where humans don't hang out all the time, where they 78 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: could roam right or they could exist. That's one of 79 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: the main reasons in our last episode people are so 80 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: interested in finding perhaps one, you know, thilacene, or a 81 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: sighting of a thilacene becomes so exciting because there are open, 82 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: wild areas where they possibly could exist. If they didn't 83 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: actually all fully go extinct. And it's to think about. 84 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: It's weird to think about. And this problem leads us 85 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: to the holy grail of your trusty crypto zoologists, a 86 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: phenomenon known as Lazarus toxa. Lazarus taxa, Lazarus taxa. Whatever 87 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: you are given, you're given accent. Maybe this phenomenon occurs 88 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: when a species that was presumed to be extinct suddenly 89 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: reappears in the fossil record. It can happen a couple 90 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: of different ways. It can happen when paleontologists discover more 91 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: recent fossils that indicate a creature lived longer than they 92 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: thought it had in the past. Uh, and that creature 93 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: could still be extinct and have lazarous taxa. You know 94 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: what I mean, It just lasted several thousand years longer 95 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: than they thought it did, Lazarus tax It can also 96 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: happen with living organisms. We think they are gone, only 97 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: to discover they've successfully survived, like you pointed out, often 98 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: in remote places with minimal human presence. Well, it's like 99 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: what we saw with the Ceila camp right. I think 100 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: that's the name of the fish that we rediscovered. Oh 101 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: my gosh, they are still around. We didn't think they were. 102 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: That's the living organism version of Lazarus taxa. And then 103 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: I guess what Barry Brooks was talking about in our 104 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: previous episode would be more of the like being rediscovered 105 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: in the fossil record if we find some remains that 106 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: actually died out in the nineties or nineties. Yeah, exactly, 107 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: And those are great examples. And on the wings of 108 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: those fantastic examples, let's let's crash, let's all have a 109 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: bad time together. It's it's time for some hard, unpleasant facts. 110 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: Extinction is not just a widespread phenomenon. It is a 111 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: tremendously successful process. It has hit almost every single kind 112 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: of living thing on the planet through out the entirety 113 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: of human history. Folks. Research indicates, as we're recording this, 114 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: that more than of all species ever have gone extinct. 115 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: For a ballpark cocktail Napkin estimate, that is more than 116 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 1: five billion unique kinds of life forms that until quite 117 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: recently we thought we would never see again until scientific necromancic. No, No, 118 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: that's not it. How's this? How do we call that? 119 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: The extinction decided to be a thing? So long long, 120 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: super long crazy long story short, I don't even know 121 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: how many thousands of words it is. Evolution happens through 122 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: this thing, this process called speciation. This is what we 123 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: referred to last episode. Where a new variety of one organism, 124 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: uh like, there's a modification to that DNA in some ways, 125 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: some small mutation, and it becomes a new thing. And 126 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: this organism rises, it thrives, while the very similar organism 127 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't have that mutation dies off because they don't 128 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: have that new adaptation that the other one has that 129 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: allows it to continue on or you know, get food 130 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: just a little more easily than it's very similar cousin exactly. Yet, 131 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: new varieties of organisms will arise and they will thrive 132 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: when their adaptations allow them to find and exploit a 133 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: given ecological niche. There, that's a much better way of 134 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: putting it. Well, they're ecological No, it's perfect there, they're 135 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: ecological niche. If we want to loosely define it, just 136 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: think of there are a lot of nuances here, but 137 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: just think of it for our purposes today as an 138 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: organisms overall relationship to resources like food, and their overall 139 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: interaction with enemies and competitors, and these species like you 140 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: said they got instinct when those adaptations either no longer 141 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: help them navigate a changing environment, or when they can 142 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: survive because they're outmatched by competition. So in our previous 143 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: story on the Thighlas scene, we saw one very big 144 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: difference between their new competitors and them. The wild dog 145 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: had humans on its side, and having humans on its 146 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: side made a big difference in the way things played out. 147 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: But this process of evolution and its evil twin extinction 148 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: was always part of the circle of life and death. 149 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: If species never went extinct, this world would be a 150 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: very different place. Humans would not be in the game 151 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: because they would have never had the opportunity to evolve 152 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: into their current ecological niche the one where they use 153 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: all the resources. They use all the resources, they kill 154 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: everything else, and then they have an alpha to Newman, 155 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: what me worry moments when the bill comes due. But 156 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: this is so. This is basically an explanation of the 157 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: necessity of extinction, even though it is a brutal, tragic thing. 158 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: It is necessary for progress for the world to continue on. 159 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: But the extinction pattern is not restricted to a single 160 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: species case. It's not just one light going out and 161 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: another coming on. It's not one light going out one 162 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: after the other. We're gonna pause for a quick word 163 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and then we're going to going to 164 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: go big with it, real big. Okay, we're back, Matt. 165 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: You remember that video game Mass Effect? Do I remember it? Yeah? Man, 166 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: I do? Wow, Okay, I've never played it. What's Mass 167 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: Effect about? It's the best video game series that ever 168 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: been created besides probably elden Ring. No wait no, it's 169 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: one of the best, though, for sure, by or Aware. 170 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: Thank you if you're listening. Uh. It's about the human 171 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: species that has evolved quite a bit, uh technologically mostly, 172 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: and they are exploring space because of some very ancient 173 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: technology that was left behind on purpose for intelligent species 174 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: to discover once they've hit a certain technological level, and 175 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: then the humans join up with all the other species 176 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: that are at that same level or higher, and they're 177 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: working together in a galactic way. Man. You know, there's 178 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: some problems. The Krogans were not great, so there that 179 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: was a whole thing there. The Torrians are awesome, but 180 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: they're pretty pretty scary dangerous anyway, you only just do 181 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: I could do five minutes on Mass Effect if you 182 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: want me to we we might need it. We definitely 183 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: need the levity because I realized that I hadn't ever 184 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: asked you about mass effect, and I have not played 185 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: it myself. But the reason, the entire reason I was 186 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: asking was due to a tangent. What we're talking about 187 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: next is the idea of mass extinctions distinction. Yeah, yeah, 188 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: not as fun as mass effect. Extinctions can happen on 189 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: varying levels of scale, and the rarest most widespread in 190 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: terms of effect. Type of extinction is known as a 191 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: mass extinction or a biotic crisis, which sounds like a 192 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: name of a hardcore band. This is the real end 193 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: of the world as we know. It's stuff. We're talking about, 194 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: a rapid decrease in Earth's biodiversity overall. An asteroid hurdling 195 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: from the outer dark hits the planet head on, triggering 196 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: wave of cataclysms that are unprecedented for the living creatures 197 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: that are unlikely enough to witness this. A dinosaur looks 198 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: to the heavens, sees only fire, and then darkness and 199 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: then nothing. While these are getting rare, they have to 200 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: find our understanding of life on Earth. Now, Look, we 201 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: can't tell you exactly how it went down right. We 202 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: can't show your video footage of the asteroid hitting or 203 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: what occurred in the Proterozoic era or earlier eons. Uh, 204 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: you know, because most everything got wiped out. And I 205 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: don't think they had cameras at the time. You know, 206 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: I can't prove that cameras didn't exist to then, but 207 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: there's certainly no proof of it. Um. That's a weird 208 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: way to say that. Um. But seriously, all living organisms 209 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: at that time where either microbial or soft bodied, and 210 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: it appears just through the records that we can see 211 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: by basically going deep into the earth and looking at 212 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: the layers, Uh, that extinction rates were pretty low back 213 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: then when the when the creatures, the organisms were a 214 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: little more simple and small before they got larger and 215 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: more complex. Um. Because again they did, and that's when 216 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: the extinction rates seemed to be higher. Because and again 217 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: it might have to do with us just being able 218 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: to more easily observe the larger, more complex organisms the 219 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: remains of those organisms. Uh, But the science tells us 220 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: that this is true. Yeah. And the part about being 221 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: microbial or soft bodied is important because soft bodied organisms 222 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: are going to decay much more easily, so nass extinction two. 223 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: There's a guy named Jack Sepkowski and a guy named 224 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: David m. Route, and they wrote a legendary paper seminal 225 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: work articulating five mass extinctions. Just we can round robin 226 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: these who think and run through them pretty quickly. Uh, 227 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: in order and chronological order. It goes like this. The 228 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: Ordovician Silurian extinction events, which collectively are the second biggest 229 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: mass die off in Earth history of all species bit 230 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: the dust jeez, and then comes in the Late Devonian extinction. 231 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: We're in at least seventy percent of all living species 232 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: at the time we're taken out. And then we go 233 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: to the Permian Triassic extinction events. That's where of all 234 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,119 Speaker 1: marine species and an estimated seventy percent of land species 235 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: said bye bye. Another similar one is the Triassic and 236 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: Jurassic extinction events. There we're looking at seventy to seventy 237 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: five percent of all species dying. Then comes in the 238 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: Cretaceous Paleogene extinction event. We're in again seventy five percent 239 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: of all species said bye bye. And this was a 240 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: big win for the humans because guess what, mammals and 241 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: birds somehow through that crazy extinction time made it through 242 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: birds and mammals. They became the things, the dominant things, 243 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: the big ish things on the planet that just took over. 244 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: And uh oh dude, yeah, this is what you make 245 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: a good point in the outline here Ben, deep in 246 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: the ocean, there is a different vibe going on. Oh yeah, 247 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: that might be its own episode. Yes, I I want 248 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: lovecraft stuff to be true. I wanted so much, so ardently. 249 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, So we've outlined these five mass extinctions. There 250 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: are a ton of caveats here. History is not as 251 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: cut and dried as a textbook. There are no definite 252 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: lines of demarcation. Uh, there are differences in calculating methods 253 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: and so on. But still this is all inspiring, terrifying stuff. 254 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: It's the stuff of myth and legend. It is as 255 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: if some ruthless, unknowable god wiped the white board clean 256 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: again and again on a whim. And yeah, you know what, 257 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: don't worry, folks, It gets worse. It gets way worse, 258 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: because people went back to this idea after the release 259 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: of that landmark paper and they found a sixth mass extinction. 260 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: If you had fomo about the first five, no sweat, 261 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: zero perspiration, the sixth mass extinction is happening now. It 262 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: is do entirely to human activity. It is called the 263 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: Holocene extinction. Extinctions have occurred it over one thousand times 264 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: the background extinction rate since nineteen hundred. The rate is increasing. 265 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: Things are, in a very very real way, going to 266 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: get worse before they get better. All right, well, hey, 267 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. We hope you have a great rest 268 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: of your day. No, but this is true. I can't 269 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: even tell you how many times we've we've made that 270 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: statement then, not not exactly how you just put it, 271 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: but that we are living through a mass extinction event 272 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: right now. We've said that on the show numerous times 273 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: because it is pretty terrifying, but it's reality, and at 274 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: some point we're gonna have to just kind of come 275 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: to terms with that or decide that it's time to 276 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: do something about it. Hopefully we will. Maybe we will will. Yeah, 277 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: humans are great at group work. I got you. Uh so, 278 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: so there's another There's something else interesting here. The same 279 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: spirit of technological innovation that is arguably damned to the 280 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: planet may allow human beings to save parts of it. 281 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: This is not science fiction. People may just be able 282 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: to bring extinct animals back to life through this process 283 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: called the extinction. But there's another plot twist here. Not 284 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: everyone is thrilled by this idea. Here's where it gets crazy. 285 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: So now that we know the whimsical, delightful ins and 286 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: outs of extinction, we can do a little bit of 287 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: clever reverse engineering. D Extinction is the process of creating 288 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: organisms that either closely resemble an extinct species kind of 289 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, or are genuine living 290 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: examples of an actual extinct species. And there's more than 291 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: one way to do it. Yeah, the first one is 292 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: pretty popular. Humans have been trying their hand at this 293 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: for quite a while, the concept of cloning, and right 294 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: now it has a lot of problems. Okay, what we 295 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: get it. Cloning is cool, It's just got some issues 296 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: the technologies there. And there are a ton of different 297 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: types of animals that have been produced through cloning. A 298 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: lot of them have been livestock animals and you know, 299 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: just species that humanity uses for scientific experimentation quite often. Yea, horses, pigs, sheep. 300 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: The most famous was Dolly the sheep, right, yea, But 301 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,479 Speaker 1: we've we've talked about it pretty recent you on one 302 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: of our listener mail, no strange news episodes like pet cloning, 303 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: which is a thing now. Yes, but let let's talk 304 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: how do you How do you actually clone something? The 305 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: process of it? Yeah, so the house stuff works portion 306 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: of today's episode cloning. It can be done by taking 307 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: the nucleus from a preserved cell of an extinct species 308 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: and kind of robbing the cradle. You take that preserved 309 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: cell and you swap it into an egg that doesn't 310 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: have a nucleus, and it's an egg of that species 311 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: nearest living relative. And you take that egg and you 312 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: insert it into a host from the nearest living relative. 313 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: And this you can already obviously, folks see a couple 314 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: of issues with this. This method can only be used 315 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: when a preserved cell is available, meaning that it is 316 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: most feasible when you're talking about recently extinct species. This 317 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: is also old tech. Uh. It's been in use in 318 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: some form or another since the nineteen fifties, which may 319 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: surprise a lot of people, but it has those clear limits, 320 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: and they're also concerns about things going wrong in the 321 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: cloning process. You don't have to have seen that Michael 322 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: Keaton vehicle multiplicity to know that there are dangers of 323 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: making a copy of a copy of a copy. I think, okay, 324 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: that's the right fielm. Okay, good. So there's another one. 325 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: There's another way to try to de extinct something. It's 326 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: quite exciting, it's a little scary. It's called genome editing. 327 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: We talked about it multiple times, multiple episodes. But for 328 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't had a chance to check those out yet, 329 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: get the to the podcast platform of your choice. But 330 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: we've got your back. Here's a quick and dirty on 331 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: genome editing. We're talking about a thing called crisper slash 332 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: cast systems and particul killer is something called crisper cast nine. 333 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: It was originally discovered as part of the bacterial immune system. 334 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: You take viral DNA you injected into bacterium and it 335 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: becomes incorporated into the bacterial chromosome at these very specific regions. 336 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: Um they're called clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats, otherwise 337 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: known as crisper tada. Yeah, it has nothing to do 338 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: with something being crisp or not, like having the attributes 339 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: of crispinus. Uh. Well, it's really interesting. So now since 340 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: the viral DNA is inside that chromosome, it gets transcribed 341 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: into r N A ribonucleic acid, and it's pretty crazy. 342 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: Once once that happens, it becomes RNA. Uhh. This thing, 343 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: the crisper, the cast nine that we just described to you, 344 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: it binds to the RNA and this cast nine can 345 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: somehow recognize this weird extra thing that's on there, and 346 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: it then cleaves it off and in a way, the 347 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: cast nine protein. You can almost think of it like 348 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: a knife for scissors or something that's going to break apart, 349 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: cut away this extra new thing. You know what it's like. 350 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: It's like um an editing program like Audition that we 351 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: use to record our podcast, or maybe Final Cut or 352 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: one of these video editing pieces of software where you 353 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: really are editing things. But in this case, you know, 354 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: it's not audio video, it's life, it's t n A, 355 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: it's RNA. It's crazy. Yes, yeah, and shout out to 356 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: the discoverers of crisper, Jennifer Dodna and Emmanuel Sharpentier. Uh 357 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: this yeah. They they rightly won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry, 358 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: by the way, just eight years after they discovered it. Yes, 359 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: and like Einstein, I would say that they are you 360 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: should not hold them responsible for whatever terrible things humans 361 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: do with it um. So what they found is miraculous. 362 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: There's no way around it. Sky's the limit you can 363 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: edit living things. So how does this apply to the extinction? Well, 364 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: by using living cells from a closely related species, you 365 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: can start messing with the de extinction process on a 366 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: genetic level. You can edit germ cells directly, such that 367 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: the egg and the sperm that are produced by an 368 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: extant parents species produce offspring of the extinct species. There's 369 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: one big disadvantage for the purest in the crowd. This 370 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: results in a hybrid creature. It's not quite the extinct 371 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: species from days of or But because it's possible to 372 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: sequence and assemble the genomes of these extinct organisms from 373 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: very highly degraded tissue, it's it's a little more efficacious 374 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: than cloning, especially when we're talking about older organisms. It 375 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: allows you to pursue de extinction in a wider array 376 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: of species, including some that don't have any well preserved remains. 377 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: The issue is there's a limit to that. The older 378 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: the tissue is, the more fragmented the DNA at holds becomes. 379 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: Meaning the jigsaw puzzle of the gene becomes increasingly more complex, 380 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: so it's not perfect. Cloning and genome editing are not perfect, 381 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: but they are amazing technologies. We're gonna pause for a 382 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're gonna return with some 383 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: other ways people are pursuing the extinction, one of which 384 00:26:54,240 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: arguably doesn't need humans at all. All right, we've returned. 385 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: If you, like us, are a dog lover or a 386 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: lover of domestic animals, you know that humans have been 387 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: modifying dogs, genetically experimenting with them for a quite a 388 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: long time, and they've done it through selective breeding. That's 389 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: the reason, ultimately, that your French bulldog does not look 390 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: like a wolf. That's the reason that Chihuahuas don't look 391 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: like wolves. And that's the reason all these other all 392 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: these other animals look so very different. There's another kind 393 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: of selective breeding that can help with the extinction. It's 394 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: called back breeding. Instead of breeding an animal for traits 395 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: that you like or think are cool, you can breed 396 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: them for atavistic traits, for ancestral traits that may have 397 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: taken a back burner over are the great grind of evolution. 398 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: So okay, let me just see how I understand this 399 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: been it is. It's it is selective breeding, but it 400 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: is attempting to gain back old traits, like down the 401 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: genetic line, Yeah, and to make them manifest. It's it's 402 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: a way of aggressively and mindfully like tracking genetic traits 403 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: of breeding population extant species and then essentially making them 404 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: reproduce with specific individuals until those um those other traits, 405 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: those older traits from the extinct species start to present. 406 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: You could tell this one also has some issues because 407 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: the trait you're looking for has to already exist somewhere 408 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: in the extant population, you know what I mean. So 409 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: like this is I'm shooting from the hip here. This 410 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: is kind of loose, but if you wanted to break 411 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: a lot of ethical laws, you could, for instance, go 412 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: to parts of the world where people have a higher 413 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: than average percentage of Neanderthal DNA. There are no living Neanderthals, 414 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: but their legacy remains, and certainly it remains with in you. 415 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: Odds are if you're listening to this show, you have 416 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: a likelihood of having some small percentage of Neanderthal DNA. 417 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: So the idea with backbreeding here, just put very loosely, 418 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: is that if you could convince people to participate, or 419 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: dark side of mat science force them to participate. Then 420 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: over time you may possibly be able to breed something 421 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: that is increasingly close to the Neanderthals of old. It 422 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: still won't be the same, because while you can potentially 423 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: recreate or re express certain traits, it's genetically not going 424 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: to be the exact organ is um that you seek 425 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: to resurrect. It'll just be very much like it. It'll 426 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: be like the Etsy version of that, or the Wish 427 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: version of that. I can't remember how that joke goes. 428 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: This is the cosplay version. It's it's not quite cosplay, 429 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's not quite. Yeah, yeah, it's like that 430 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: looks a lot like Sonic the Hedgehog, but I don't 431 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: think it's Sonic, you know, um, but it's still is 432 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: still closer than then it would have been when at 433 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: the population Spaceline. And then there's something else that we 434 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: teased before the break, which is a kind of the 435 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: extinction the extinction asterisk that does not actually need technology 436 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: and it does not actually need humans to work. It's 437 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: something called iterative evolution. Yes, it are of evolution. This 438 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: thing is fascinating to me. So in this case, you 439 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: have a species that does in fact you're extinct. Let's 440 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: say the thilacene, and the philocene still has some very 441 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: similar cousins. From an evolutionary perspective, those continue to exist. 442 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: They are breeding like crazy, they've got thriving populations, and eventually, 443 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: at some point over time, one of those or a 444 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: small group of that species then starts exhibiting traits that 445 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: the philacine had, and then they continue breeding and breeding 446 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: and breeding, and then you get another philacine like or 447 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: or very very similar philacine, a new version of a 448 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: thilacene that isn't quite thilacene but is very very close. Yeah, 449 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: and this is not so. People often tend to think 450 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: of species as a relatively static life form, but they 451 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: are all, like every other living thing there, works in progress, 452 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: and thanks to iterative evolution, it is possible for a 453 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: species to evolve to the same being at multiple points. Trippy. 454 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: I know. The best way to understand this maybe is 455 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: it is a specific example. So one of the most 456 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: extreme famous examples of this is a humble little bird 457 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: called the white throated rail. The white throated rail is 458 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: not the most impressive of birds. It's about the size 459 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: of a chicken. They can't fly, it can't make a 460 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: lot of it can't do a lot of the cool 461 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,239 Speaker 1: things that birds do. But it still has a lot 462 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: of the disadvantages of being a bird. It's a bird 463 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: without bird powers, That's what I'm saying. So it is 464 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: the it's the only flightless bird in the Indian Ocean, 465 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: and once upon a time research found it had gone extinct, 466 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: but thanks to iterative evolution, without the help of humans, 467 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: it came back. They it evolved in the same way 468 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: multiple times, at different times from the same ancestor. This 469 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: stuff was in the Zoological Journal of the Linnaean Society, 470 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: and in two separate occasions, two separate instances, tens of 471 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: thousands of years apart, a rail species was able to 472 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: colonize this island called Aldebra and then evolved to become 473 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: flightless on both occasions. So it just did it again. 474 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: It just did it again. It just came back after 475 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: it that, you know what I mean. It went extinct 476 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: and it said not today, and then ten thousand years 477 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: later it was back in the game. So yeah, so 478 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: what is this is extraordinarily rare, of course, but it 479 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: is possible that things can be extinct themselves given enough time. 480 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: One of the big downers about this from the somewhat 481 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: selfish human perspective is that humans don't known. Humans don't 482 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: currently have the lifespan that would be necessary to monitor 483 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: the entirety of this process in real time. But still, 484 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: it's comforting to know that even without human beings, Earth 485 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: kind of has its own back pocket way to cheat extinction. 486 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: I guess a glib way to put it, but kind 487 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: of cool, right, that's you know, I think we both 488 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: we both agree that's cool. It's amazing, you know what 489 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean. But with that in mind, it might surprise 490 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: some of us in the audience today to learn that 491 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: not everybody is on board with the extinction. They have 492 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: some problems with experts have some problems with it, and 493 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: as wild as it sounds, they make some really really 494 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: good points. Uh, Like, Okay, mammoths. Everybody's excited about mammoth's 495 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: coming back, whether it's through cloning, genomic editing, what have you. Mammoths, 496 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: for example, evolved to live in an environment that in 497 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: many cases is no longer the same today, so they 498 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: could come back on the scene, be released in the wild, 499 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: and function effectively as invasive species we can have on everybody. 500 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Like we thought the mammoths were gone. Oh run, Yeah, 501 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: and they're functioning away too well. And they also are 502 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: breeding way too much. Uh yikes, Oh here comes that 503 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: giant heard of mammoths again. Uh everybody, everybody get off 504 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: the road. They're back again. Um, it could be a 505 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: really bad situation. Yeah, I can imagine that. And you know, 506 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: think about the Philo scene. If you were able to 507 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: successfully bring them back through this process, they are a 508 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: predator species depending on where they end up thriving, if 509 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: you did bring them back or perhaps you know an 510 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: island like Tasmania that they recolonize. Um, it could spell disaster, 511 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: serious disaster if they're gone, If they're actually gone, I'm 512 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: just holding out hope because because of that paper. But yes, 513 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: so you know, Ben, we took this out in our 514 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: previous episode, Barry Brooke person we were speaking about last episode. 515 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: We we took it out. But you made this point, Ben, 516 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: that he is saying they're extinct, right, Yes, yeah, he 517 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: and his team are saying that the thoughtless scene is 518 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly likely to be extinct. Uh. They're the revelatory parts 519 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: of their research concerned the time frame of that extinction, 520 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: which again could be difficult to tell depending on the 521 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: range of an animal. So yeah, still they are saying 522 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: in that paper there's this tiny, tiny, tiny chance, and 523 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: I will take it. Dude. Uh but if okay, so 524 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: all right with the thoughtless an example, let's say they're 525 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: de extincted, they may not be able well, ad extincted 526 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: animal may not be able to survive in the natural world, 527 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: especially if they went extinct a very long time ago, like, 528 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: for instance, a life form that lived when the chemical 529 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: composition of the atmosphere was different. Then they wouldn't be 530 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: able to vibe really well here in And then also 531 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: this could lead to the extinction of other living species, 532 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: because what if you bring back some predators from the 533 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,959 Speaker 1: days of yore and they just go ham, just go hard, 534 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: because this new world may be unfamiliar to them, But 535 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of soft creatures around that have 536 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: lost the adaptations that allowed them to survive when this 537 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: predator had its first go around the sun. Yeah, those 538 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: white throated rails aren't gonna fare very well if philocenes 539 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: are just run around and the rails can't fly. Still, yeah, 540 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: and dialacenes love eating birds. Man, they'll get down on 541 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: an emu. H. So, so the the next problem is 542 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: that and this is this is weird to think about, 543 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: but it is a valley concern. What if you go 544 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: to all this trouble bringing an entire species back from 545 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: the grave, and you don't bother changing the factors that 546 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: led to their extinction in the first place, and then 547 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: eventually they just go extinct again, all that work for nothing. 548 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: That's a bummer, right, And that's not even counting the 549 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: idea that new diseases could wipe out ad extinctive creature. 550 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: And there was one other point that conservationists brought up, 551 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: which I feel like we should mention, and maybe we 552 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: should end on this because this leads us to a 553 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: bigger conversation. De extinction at this point is crazy expensive. 554 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: Imagine a number. It's higher than that, so much so 555 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: that conservationists are asking, and I want to say, what 556 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: you think about this, man, because we didn't talk about 557 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: this yet. Off air conservation as are saying, you know what, 558 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: we are in the sixth grade mass extinction. We're in 559 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: an actual biotic crisis. A lot of living things are 560 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: gonna die soon. Maybe we should focus on keeping those 561 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: things alive before we start trying to bring back just 562 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: a couple of really expensive ones, right, I mean, what 563 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: do you think about that logic? It's not near as 564 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 1: exciting of a headline, but it feels like a good point. Yeah, 565 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly we should be focusing the vast amount 566 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: of our resources on keeping species alive, including humans. That 567 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: would be great if we could do that somehow, I 568 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: don't know how. It's not like we've just got you know, 569 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: several hundred people with just billions and billions of dollars 570 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: at their disposal. They could save the planet or something. Yeah. Yeah, 571 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: but but it's I mean, it's a question that's tough 572 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: to answer. The reality of this is that there's more 573 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: to the concept of the extinction then you might initially assume. 574 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: Certainly more than we initially assumed. But it is real 575 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: that we are living in a world where you may 576 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: one day see a mammoth, you may one day see 577 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: a thihlasy. And you know what, shout out to everybody 578 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: who says, hey, Ben Matt Michig control, I already did 579 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: see his thilasy. You know what I mean? Read the email, 580 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: Uh that if If you are one of those people, 581 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: we can't wait to hear from you. We want to 582 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: hear your take on the controversy of the extinction. Want 583 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: to hear also whether you think any animal will actually 584 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: be brought back in one of these ways, aside from 585 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: iterative evolution, which again doesn't need humans. All you have 586 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: to do is hit us up online. 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