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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and every week I bring

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Speaker 1: new stories about revolution and revolt and weird folks and

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Speaker 1: basically whoever I think it's cool. And this week I'm

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Speaker 1: very excited because I have someone we're all to talk

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Speaker 1: to you as a guest. John Darielle is a novelist

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Speaker 1: and a musician, probably most famous for his work as

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Speaker 1: a songwriter and singer in The Mountain Goods. John, how

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Speaker 1: are you doing today? I am decent. Also, I'm tired.

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Speaker 1: We were on the U in a different time zone

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Speaker 1: earlier this week, so so yeah, I'm good. Getting ready

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Speaker 1: for tour. We we leave for tour on Saturday. We

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Speaker 1: just came back from tour. It's I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it's like in your business, but in the out there

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Speaker 1: on stages business, this is a subject of conversation for

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Speaker 1: everybody right now that like, yeah, we're all hitting it

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Speaker 1: so hard it's really unhealthy. Um. But but I I

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Speaker 1: know TV people are doing the same things, theater people

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Speaker 1: of music people like everybody. Because we lost a year,

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Speaker 1: right and it's like I didn't you know, I went

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Speaker 1: from a reliable paycheck to pretty much nothing for so.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was lucky that we did some livestream

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Speaker 1: concerts that helped. But I had three shows in January

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Speaker 1: that I was glad I did. But but other than that,

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Speaker 1: I like now, like, yeah, we don't get to rest

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Speaker 1: for their decades. So yeah, I guess that makes sense. Um.

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Speaker 1: I did my first reader like author event um last

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Speaker 1: week for the first time since the pandemic started. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: It's very nice to get back to it, although it

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, it's just weird to

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Speaker 1: go out in front of people after a while, you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, it's it's an adjustment. It's we went out

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Speaker 1: during the Delta Surges when we finally got back, and

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Speaker 1: it was a very uh rich emotional experience to be back.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so great to be back on stage. But

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Speaker 1: also you know, it was it was getting more and

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Speaker 1: more unsafe by the day. Yeah. Yeah. And and then

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously the political environment that we've been living

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Speaker 1: with it's very bad. So what I's just so bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like among Mountain ghost people, the amount of blowback

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Speaker 1: we got for asking for vaccines and stuff was almost

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Speaker 1: nothing compared to like if a country artist asks, you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody with a with a broader base and perhaps more

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't like the word traditional, but you

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Speaker 1: know people who might lean more conservative. I think among

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Speaker 1: Mountain Gohoes fans lean lean pretty left of center for

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Speaker 1: the most part. You know, there's one or two people

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Speaker 1: who were mad. It's like, hey, man, you can be mad.

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Speaker 1: I don't really feel any any any desire to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's funny these people get on you with

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Speaker 1: this sort of like you know, hey, you're gonna lose

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Speaker 1: a fan. You know what. That's fine. If your your

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Speaker 1: fanhood is contingent on me not stating, you know, a

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Speaker 1: simple matter of conviction about public health. I'm nurse, right,

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Speaker 1: then then that's fine. It's not like I'm not really

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Speaker 1: worried about an exodus of like, you know, I can

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Speaker 1: lose all these fans because you asked for masks, masks

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Speaker 1: of vaccines. No, I'm not worried about that. Have fun,

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Speaker 1: go listen to somebody else. But but it was that

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Speaker 1: sort of environment, you know, it's like you get it.

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Speaker 1: So it's been complicated. Yeah, I mean I can imagine

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Speaker 1: they didn't pay a lot of attention to the lyrics.

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Speaker 1: I feel like your songs are about let's all take

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Speaker 1: care of each other, you know, you know, so, I

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Speaker 1: mean the thing is but that's interesting to me. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you play Magic, um, but one of

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Speaker 1: the things that people who play Magic will say who've

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Speaker 1: been playing, is like there's a lot of reasons to

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Speaker 1: be into it, right, Like, it's not just people who

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Speaker 1: want to win. That's a style of play. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: care the most about winning, but maybe you care more

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Speaker 1: about the social aspect in the gameplay is fun, but

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Speaker 1: it's a style of gameplay that allows for a certain

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Speaker 1: type of interaction, like or maybe it's the aesthetics of it,

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Speaker 1: the the the art and so forth. It's like it's

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Speaker 1: a place to gameplay where the art is more immersive

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Speaker 1: than if you're playing D and D where all the

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Speaker 1: arts inside you're head. I mean, you have obviously books,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's so many reasons you might want to

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Speaker 1: play Magic. And it's the same with music and honestly

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Speaker 1: with books. Is like, you know, people might be into

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Speaker 1: your stuff for a bunch of reasons, right, So I've

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Speaker 1: learned that over the years that like, and it's fine

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Speaker 1: if somebody, you know, if somebody has you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: fifty five and so like, I'm not so hard line

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Speaker 1: that I say you have to be left wing to

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Speaker 1: like my stuff. There's some basic stuff, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like the real bedrock stuff that that people on left say. Look,

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Speaker 1: if you know, if you can't be decent to people,

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Speaker 1: then fuck you. If you can't accept people's like right

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Speaker 1: to self determination, then suck you. Right. But but but again,

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Speaker 1: we're living in a more polarizing time right now. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's a it's a different sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: but yeah, but that I would think that people who

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Speaker 1: would be and myself would understand. Of course I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be asking for masks and vaccines, of course I am.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, No, it doesn't surprise me at all. Um.

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Speaker 1: I I don't play magic, but I did get to

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Speaker 1: complete a bucket list item that I didn't know I had,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote an official Magic the Gathering short fiction

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Speaker 1: for like a for one of the cards. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if I read it with a short fiction piece, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was like it's published. It's so it's I didn't

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Speaker 1: write the teaser text at the bottom of a card,

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Speaker 1: the flavor text you yeah, sorry, Yeah, it shows that

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Speaker 1: I haven't played in a long time. I played when

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Speaker 1: I was in middle school and and I haven't played since.

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Speaker 1: But I was really excited to impress middle school me

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Speaker 1: by getting to write official Magic the guy that's cool.

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Speaker 1: That's super cool. Okay, So I want to get the

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Speaker 1: one fan girl thing out of the way before we

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Speaker 1: start on this story, which is that, um, some of

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Speaker 1: your songs about desperate hope are the reason that some

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Speaker 1: of my friends are alive. So I have a ship,

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Speaker 1: well my pleasure, but I have a stick about that

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Speaker 1: that I usually have to deliver individually, and I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to broadcast it a little further. I like, I wrote

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Speaker 1: stuff that's useful, right, But I really strongly resist the

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Speaker 1: notion that that then I get any credit for doing

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Speaker 1: anything besides something I was gonna do anyway. Right. I

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Speaker 1: didn't reach out and touch anybody, right, I just did

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Speaker 1: a thing that I hope was useful and that I

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Speaker 1: have a desire to be useful. That's maybe commendable. I

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Speaker 1: don't go further than commendable, right. Uh. The notion that

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Speaker 1: I'm special in any way for doing that absolutely not right,

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Speaker 1: I think right now, and people, those of us who

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Speaker 1: are weirder I think started doing a sort of mock

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Speaker 1: uh celebrity fetishization about three years ago that now has

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Speaker 1: has absolutely blossomed into any person I like is expected

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Speaker 1: to be perfect, and I think they are perfect because

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Speaker 1: they did work that I like. I think all that's toxic, right,

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Speaker 1: I should be understood as a person with the same

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Speaker 1: terrible body smells as everybody else, uh you know, and

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Speaker 1: and the same flaws as anybody else. So so I

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Speaker 1: didn't save anybody, but I'm extraordinarily grateful that the stuff

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Speaker 1: I did was useful to them, because the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is, if a piece of art saved your life,

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Speaker 1: no it didn't. You used it for that function, right,

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Speaker 1: And he's a super important distinction. The piece of art

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Speaker 1: can't do anything by itself, is useless, right, It's only

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Speaker 1: useful when a person cracks it open, like a person

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Speaker 1: breaking an egg. And egg isn't nutritious until you break it.

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Speaker 1: And I mean you can eat it raw, but break

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Speaker 1: it and do something with it, right, Otherwise it's just

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Speaker 1: sitting there. It can't be praised as anything. And so

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Speaker 1: so that's a stick that I go into it like.

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Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for the news, but I always want

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Speaker 1: people to know you did that. I didn't really do

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Speaker 1: any I mean I did something. I'm glad I made

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Speaker 1: a thing that's cool and useful, But like, I never

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Speaker 1: I have been saved from freezing to death by being

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Speaker 1: inside the house that I'm in. But I'm never going

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Speaker 1: to look at the architect and tell him, hey, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you saved my life. I was going to

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Speaker 1: freeze otherwise. It's like, you know, but but I'm super

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Speaker 1: glad that they built a house. So that's that sounds

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Speaker 1: very defensive, but it's because it's important to me, because

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Speaker 1: I think that when we idolize, we do ourselves and

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Speaker 1: our politics and incredible disservice right that we should we

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Speaker 1: should understand that that every step toward idolization is to

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Speaker 1: be heavily interrogated. It's one of my big things. So no, no,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. And it's like, but we can be

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Speaker 1: grateful that architects built houses because we need houses to

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Speaker 1: stay warm and and like so in some ways, it's

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Speaker 1: just like I I use that as this is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that art matters, you know, Yeah, oh absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I don't look my darkest hour in recent memory anyway.

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Speaker 1: A decade or so ago, I spent listening to the

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Speaker 1: same Aimy Grant song over and over again, and it

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Speaker 1: was always Rich mull And song that she sang. And

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Speaker 1: when I saw her live, just the sight of her,

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Speaker 1: you know, then that's iconic. That's literally, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: what iconography is. That like a person comes to represent

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Speaker 1: a series of experiences and values and moments for you.

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Speaker 1: But it's important for us to remember that the icon

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually have the power. You put the power into

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Speaker 1: the Yeah, totally, totally. I think about this all the time.

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Speaker 1: I can tell and I'm glad though, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like that's why I can tell. I feel safe and

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Speaker 1: telling you that. Then someone's like, oh, yes, I am

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Speaker 1: the savior, you know, Um well, I mean the thing is,

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Speaker 1: I think it's something anybody who makes anything, including podcasts,

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Speaker 1: reckons with. Eventually it's like, what do you say to

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Speaker 1: somebody who, I mean, who thinks you know you saved

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Speaker 1: my life? I did not. If I gave you CPR,

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Speaker 1: then I saved your fucking life, absolutely, And you can

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Speaker 1: say that to me. But songs aren't CPR. They are

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Speaker 1: they are pieces of work that the listener then elects

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Speaker 1: or does not elect to find what's already inside themselves, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's so important to say that I'm

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Speaker 1: willing to do ten minutes the subject every time, every

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Speaker 1: time somebody tells me that my stulf was useful to them,

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Speaker 1: because because I do think the way that we contextualize

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Speaker 1: art and artists remains profoundly unhealthy and bad. No that

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Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense to me, even though

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Speaker 1: I benefit from that in every way. It's like people people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean is understandable because your viewers can't

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Speaker 1: your listeners can't see, but like my hair is genuinely

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Speaker 1: iconic at this point, and like you would actually probably

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Speaker 1: save people's lives. Just I mean, it's so it's astonishing,

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Speaker 1: it's really good. Everyone should go out and see this tour,

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Speaker 1: just just see. The thing is I actually have to

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Speaker 1: have it trimmed on Friday or Thursday. I'm really hoping

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Speaker 1: it's not too so it's what's so thick, It's just

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Speaker 1: I mean, oh my god, that's what I thought this

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Speaker 1: podcast was about. For growing out my hair. So yeah, um, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about the hair length of today's heroes unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: because there wasn't a lot of photography around and the

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Speaker 1: Civil War era England. But that's right, Well years are

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Speaker 1: we talking about here? So today we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about some of the many groups in history who

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Speaker 1: have used religion as their impetus to do cool things

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Speaker 1: like three People's equals fight against the formation of capitalism

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Speaker 1: as we understand it today, because we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the English Civil War of the sixteen forties and fifties,

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Speaker 1: but not in a battle to battle, blow to blow

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Speaker 1: kind of way, which if people are into they can

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Speaker 1: go find that content. That's great, um. But instead I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about all of the weird religious and

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Speaker 1: social movements that popped up during that time. Okay, they

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Speaker 1: there are the forebearers of everything from Western style democratic

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Speaker 1: republics to anarchism and socialism, to environmentalism to free love.

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Speaker 1: And so we're going to talk about the Levelers, the Diggers,

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Speaker 1: and the ranters. All right, have you heard of these folks?

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Speaker 1: I have. I'm not I'm not super conversant. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be able to give you any introductory remarks on them,

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Speaker 1: but I've heard it. Especially the Diggers are known. I think,

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Speaker 1: don't the Diggers uh prefigure the Wobblies at some point

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Speaker 1: with the Wobblies look back to the Diggers. You know,

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me at all, because they're doing fairly

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Speaker 1: similar stuff in a lot of ways. But I don't

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Speaker 1: specifically know of the connection, although they do have similarly

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Speaker 1: funny names. And and one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: learned by doing this is that, well, we'll get into this,

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Speaker 1: but no one gets to name themselves in this time period.

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Speaker 1: Everyone gets names they don't want. But you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of for it. Yeah, okay. So so when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid and I was learning U S history,

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Speaker 1: I always learned about the Puritans, right, this poor oppressed

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Speaker 1: minority that fled to England, presumably fearing for their lives

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Speaker 1: or some ship and then or at least we're searching

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Speaker 1: for religious freedom. But what one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I didn't learn was that one of the main religious

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Speaker 1: freedoms that a lot of the Puritans wanted was the

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Speaker 1: freedom to not let other people practice their own religions. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and one of their biggest problems with the English king

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Speaker 1: was that the English king was too religiously tolerant. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: isn't so like when we think about the Puritans. It's

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Speaker 1: interesting because you know, I think the image of the

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Speaker 1: bay Flower and the early colonies. You were all smart

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Speaker 1: enough to know that these were people just placing Native

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Speaker 1: Americans violently and so forth. But but beyond that, aren't

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Speaker 1: the aren't the witch hunters? Aren't they Puritans? Yeah? Yeah, totally, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean also Catholics and but yeah, extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: violent people. Catholic still were pretty marginal. This is still

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Speaker 1: in England. Well yeah, actually, yeah, they weren't in Scotland.

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Speaker 1: I think that I actually don't know as much about

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Speaker 1: the Catholic part of the witch hunting on the British Isles,

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Speaker 1: but I think in Scotland they were up to it,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. Yeah, no, the Puritans. They also

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Speaker 1: I actually cut this whole part of the script out

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Speaker 1: because it was too long, but they the first thing

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Speaker 1: they did when they came to power in England. Oh

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Speaker 1: that's the other thing is they don't tell us that

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Speaker 1: the Puritans actually came to power. That's how oppressed they were,

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Speaker 1: is that they very quickly after deposed the king. This

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Speaker 1: is the whole English Civil War is about, is the

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Speaker 1: Puritan's overthrowing the king and creating a Puritan society and

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Speaker 1: outlawing Christmas. Oh well yeah, well, I mean Christmas. Christmas

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Speaker 1: is a weird anyway, right, Yeah, I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: that mad at people at Christians going look, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is this is not actually what it's about. And

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Speaker 1: I enjoy Christmas. But I get where they're coming from. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: fair enough, Okay, So the in the midst of all

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Speaker 1: this uppeople right, um, you've got genuinely cool people did

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Speaker 1: some genuinely cool stuff, which is the name of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So that's focus on um. And but before I can

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Speaker 1: talk about today's here is too much, I have to

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Speaker 1: introduce the English Civil War, or what's properly more properly

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Speaker 1: known as the War of Three Kingdoms, since it drags

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Speaker 1: Ireland and Scotland down with it too. There's three of them,

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Speaker 1: they're really close together, three different English Civil Wars, and

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Speaker 1: then all of these other wars that happened, and and

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Speaker 1: they ended up fascinating, not in any of the ways

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Speaker 1: that I expected them to be fascinating when I first

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Speaker 1: started researching this. No one who's listening to this will

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Speaker 1: be surprised to know that I'm not personally a big

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Speaker 1: fan of monarchy. Um so I my initial assumption anytime

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Speaker 1: I hear about people overthrowing a king is that, while

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Speaker 1: I'm on that side, the side it's overthrowing the king.

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Speaker 1: And the shortest way to describe the English Civil Wars

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Speaker 1: are England didn't want a king anymore, so they got

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Speaker 1: rid of their king by killing them. And it sounds

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Speaker 1: good me right so far, but it ends up way

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Speaker 1: messier than that. So in the mid seventeenth century England

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Speaker 1: had a king, Charles the First, and he was supposed

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Speaker 1: to have a parliament that let other people have a

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Speaker 1: say in decision making, that he could call up every

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Speaker 1: now and then to call them up and have them

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Speaker 1: pass taxes and things like that. Parliament had been around

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Speaker 1: for since the thirteenth century. But Charles the First didn't

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Speaker 1: like other people telling what to do, so he just

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Speaker 1: dissolved parliament. He just didn't call it for eleven years

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Speaker 1: from sixteen forty, we had no way to call for attacks,

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Speaker 1: so he started doing all of these other tricky things

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Speaker 1: to try and get money, which just ended up pissing

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Speaker 1: everyone off. He would do things like he would find

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Speaker 1: everyone who missed his coronation in order to get money

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Speaker 1: from them. I mean I I do that too. Yeah okay, Well, um,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't tell you about missing your coronation then, uh

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Speaker 1: speaking empling artists', Um, if you don't show up for

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Speaker 1: the coronation, I can't really be held responsible for my behavior. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like everyone has to buy a Mountain Goats ticket whether

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Speaker 1: or not they're coming. I think that isn't the way

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Speaker 1: that it's to be. It's fair. Yeah okay, But the

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Speaker 1: other thing that you should do is that you should

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Speaker 1: charge people money for not building boats. Um, because I

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Speaker 1: believe everyone is obliged to build boats and give them

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Speaker 1: to you, even if they live in landlocked areas. And

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Speaker 1: so that was the other thing he did is he

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Speaker 1: would charge people weird. He basically found every single loophole

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Speaker 1: to try and make people have to give him money.

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Speaker 1: He sold monopolies to various people, and which of course,

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Speaker 1: like jacked up the prices for different commodities, pisces everyone off.

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Speaker 1: He claims a ton of land as royal forest and

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Speaker 1: then turns around and sells it off or finds people

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Speaker 1: for using it, and he just he's not so good, right,

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Speaker 1: And then Scotland invades England over some religious ship. Our

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Speaker 1: king didn't have enough money for war to be caves in.

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Speaker 1: He calls a parliament. Parliament is like, what we want

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Speaker 1: more power. Kings like I don't want to give you power.

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Speaker 1: So they go to war, Parliament and the king against

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Speaker 1: each other. The first Civil War was sixty two is

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Speaker 1: sixteen forty six. Most of England wanted to stay the

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Speaker 1: funk out of this war, Like most of the people

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Speaker 1: in England wanted to stay the funk out of this

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Speaker 1: war because it was a war basically between the nobility

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Speaker 1: supporting the king and then the rich who were supporting Parliament,

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Speaker 1: and most people weren't nobility or rich. One of my

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Speaker 1: favorite groups that came out of this that I want

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Speaker 1: to know more about, there's this group called the club Men,

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Speaker 1: and they formed all over England to try and protect

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Speaker 1: themselves and protect their communities from the rape and pillage

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Speaker 1: and slaughter and all the terrible stuff that armies do.

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Speaker 1: And so these people basically formed to like protect their

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Speaker 1: communities while they tried to stay out the hell out

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Speaker 1: of this war. Thousands of them fought tooth and nail

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Speaker 1: with like cudgels and sides against professional soldiers and I

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Speaker 1: I want to know more about them in one day

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Speaker 1: to an episode about them, but that's all I know

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Speaker 1: about them to say overall, the king is more populist

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Speaker 1: than the rural areas supported him, while the middle classes

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Speaker 1: in the city supported Parliament. The king loses, he gets

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Speaker 1: and thrown in jail. That's civil war one. But that's

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Speaker 1: not enough civil wars for them. So the king from captivity,

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Speaker 1: he talks the Scots into invading England again to put

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Speaker 1: him back on the throne. He loses again, and this

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Speaker 1: time Parliament is like, look, we tried throwing you in

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Speaker 1: jail and you still managed to invade us, so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna kill you. So they killed the king and this

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Speaker 1: is a very big deal. Later, all of these people

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Speaker 1: get in a lot of trouble for regicide. His kid

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Speaker 1: literally impossible to hear the word regicide without remembering a

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Speaker 1: Simpson's bit you know this one? No, please tell it

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Speaker 1: to me. You don't know this. Where they're calling like

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Speaker 1: nine one one, and they get a and they get

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Speaker 1: a they get a voice menu like to if you

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Speaker 1: if you know the to him, but the crime being committed,

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Speaker 1: please press right, and then mashing buttons like they need

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Speaker 1: to get through this emergency. They hit a button and

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Speaker 1: the voices you have selected regicide if you know the

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Speaker 1: name of the king or queen being reposed press one.

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Speaker 1: I can never hear regicide without thinking of that. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm just imagining Homer or whatever being like Charles the first,

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Speaker 1: Charles the First, I feel it might be the episode.

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Speaker 1: It probably hasn't aged, will or Homer gains too much

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Speaker 1: weight to to go to the office. He's working from home, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that yep, that wouldn't age. Well, okay, So so

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Speaker 1: after Homer reports that Charles the First has been killed

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Speaker 1: Charles the Second, who I guess might be Bart in

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Speaker 1: this particular story, he says, well, I guess I'm the

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Speaker 1: king now, right, And so back to war we go. English.

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Speaker 1: I think this is yes Civil War three, and the

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Speaker 1: Scots and the Irish are on the King's side because

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Speaker 1: overall he's a little bit more sympathetic to the Catholics

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Speaker 1: and stuff. Um, and the Scots are a little bit

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Speaker 1: more split religiously the Highland. The Highland Scots are more Catholic,

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Speaker 1: the Littland Scots are more Protestant. And there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of stuff I do not understand about what's going on

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Speaker 1: in Scotland at this time. I've spent Yeah, the stuff

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Speaker 1: is incredibly complicated. I know, whenever historical novels that have

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Speaker 1: this as a background, just getting the basics into your skull,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that you sort of have to have, you

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Speaker 1: know that you have to have at the ready, it's

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Speaker 1: really hard. So yeah, I've spent so much time listening

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Speaker 1: and reading about this part of it, and I'm just

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Speaker 1: kind of in the end, I was like, got it.

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Speaker 1: The Highland Scots are Catholic and the Lowland Scots are Protestant,

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Speaker 1: and that's as far as I can. Well. The other

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Speaker 1: thing is funny. It's like, so if you read fantasy

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Speaker 1: novels or anything like that, you know it's clearly people

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Speaker 1: who are into this kind of thing. Oh yeah, okay, look,

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Speaker 1: you must want to have to memorize a bunch of

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Speaker 1: a bunch of habit the ready details before any story happens.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna want to you must be a person who

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Speaker 1: likes that. And then when I when I write fantasy,

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Speaker 1: I try to actually be able to drop the writer

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Speaker 1: the reader directly in instead of the like five pages

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Speaker 1: of context before we get into it. And so that's

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Speaker 1: how I ended up with this script where I'm like, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Scotland's a fucking mess, you know. So

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Speaker 1: since the Irish are fighting for the king, the Parliamentary

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Speaker 1: Army invades and genocides Ireland, one of to at least

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Speaker 1: two genocides of England, Poles and Ireland over the centuries.

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Speaker 1: And because Ireland had gotten kind of independent during the

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Speaker 1: Civil Wars, the Catholics were in charge. Oliver Cromwell, he's

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Speaker 1: in charge of the Parliamentarians. He invades with his army

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Speaker 1: called the New Model Army, which makes me really sad

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if you know this band New

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Speaker 1: Model Army, remember New Model Army there from back in

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Speaker 1: the Yeah, you're still around though, I think still the

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Speaker 1: guys still doing the thing, So yeah they are. And

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Speaker 1: there there's some of my favorite musicians and I always

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Speaker 1: figured they were named after something really cool, and uh,

425
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 1: there were parts of the New Model Army that were

426
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 1: really cool, especially from an English point of view, but

427
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 1: from an Irish point of view, they if they killed

428
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: somewhere between the Irish population's at Yeah. Um, but some

429
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: of the what we'll talk about the good New Model

430
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: army people in this episode, so to try and reclaim

431
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: maybe like if mountain goats came and killed everyone, you know,

432
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 1: it's just it's no good. So Cromwell just he storms

433
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: around Ireland and he murders whole towns in order to

434
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: restore Protestant and therefore directly colonial rule um of Ireland.

435
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,719
Speaker 1: And he does it to try and stop Ireland from

436
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: supporting the Royalists. But he's also doing it because he

437
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: just hates Catholics. And also he has to rob all

438
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: the Catholic landowners in order to pay everyone in the

439
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: army and like support his whole war. He basically has

440
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: to go rob Ireland. I don't know, not my favorite guy.

441
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: And anyone who has supported an independent Ireland had the

442
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: property sold off. Catholic, even Catholic landowners who tried to

443
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: stay neutral, they wanted to side with their class interests

444
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: instead of their national interests or or whatever the religion

445
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 1: and cultural interests, they get the property sold off literally

446
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: just for being Catholics. Catholics were forced to go live

447
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: only in Western Ireland and bounties were put on priest's head,

448
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: they were executed. And this post you're saying, right, this

449
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: mid This is way before the Potato genocide sixteen four

450
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: day is yeah, this is during the English Civil War. Yeah.

451
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I found that kind

452
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: of confused me or I kind of so after Cromwell wins,

453
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: about thirty thousand Irish people keep fighting as guerilla fighters

454
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: against the English, and the name of this group are

455
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: the Tories, because it's an it's an Irish word that

456
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: means outlaw or pursuer. And then of course later this

457
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: gets turned into the word for right wing English people, um,

458
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: because they were softer and Catholicism, and I think basically

459
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: people were like and insulting them by basically being like

460
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: Europe you know, Irish bog dweller, you best or whatever.

461
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: You know. It's so, it's just it's so interesting that like,

462
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: well we I mean loosely, UK British Isles politics are

463
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: so they feel so much more complex to me than

464
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: than ours, which are also they have their own complexities,

465
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: but like the amount of stuff you have to keep

466
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: track of is pretty intense. Yeah, and that's why I'm

467
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: trying to like run through context. This is the Yeah,

468
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: the which side is, you know, and a lot of

469
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't even map to right and left very well, right,

470
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: because again you have this like pro democracy movement who

471
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: then turns around and you know, cements the colonization and

472
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: tries to genocide Ireland and shipped. So yeah, the English

473
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: they start destroying all the civilian food supplies and the

474
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: burning crops in order to get rid of these guerilla fighters.

475
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: They kill everyone who's suspected of helping them. Famine spread,

476
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: the bubonic plague breaks out again. The whole sections of

477
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: Ireland get declared free fire zones by the British, where

478
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: literally anyone they see they're allowed to kill. And and

479
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: in the end, Charles the second loses the Third English

480
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: Civil War, so he fox off to France, which is

481
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: a classic I'm a king and lost move in history,

482
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: um and something like this. And these wars are incredibly

483
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: destructive in England, right, like something like four percent of

484
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: the total population of England dies in this war, which

485
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 1: is proportionately twice as many as English folks died in

486
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: World War One, which in turn was about twice as

487
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: many as World War Two proportionately. But Ireland, of course

488
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: are the actual big losers of this civil war because

489
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: at the time people said it was forty of the

490
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: Irish population. Later historians have figured out that it was

491
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: probably only of the Irish population that was killed. Yeah,

492
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: this is a bonkers amount of death. People can't really

493
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: conceive of that, you know. It's it's uh, yeah, there's

494
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: a lot of moments in histories are like that. There.

495
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: It's very sober ring to name them that, like, you know,

496
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: seventy nine in Cambodia times when incredible numbers of the

497
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: population died. Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's it's hard

498
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: for me to wrap my head around because it's just

499
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: it's too big a it's too big a percent. I

500
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: just can't imagine it, you know. But but England wins,

501
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: you know, the parliament wins. They get a republic for

502
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: a little while, which is very quickly followed by a

503
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: protectorate because Cromwell ends up the Lord protector, which is

504
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: I I swear I'm not a king role even though

505
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: he basically serves as a monarch. His main accountability is

506
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: to the army in a classic kind of right wing

507
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: coup kind of way, and he divides England into military

508
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: districts who are ruled by generals who are answerable only

509
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: to him. The one good things sort of that he did, right,

510
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: He un banishes the Jews from England, because the Jewish

511
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: people have been banned from England for a couple hundred

512
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: years at this point. Yeah, but he did it so

513
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: that he could convert them to Christianity in order to

514
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: bring on the end times, according to some biblical prophecy

515
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: about making Jews into Christians to bring on the end times,

516
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: which I don't know reminds me of like I didn't

517
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: pay enough of attention to it, but like I think

518
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: it was like Bush Jr. Was like into doing a

519
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: lot of Middle East politics in order to bring on

520
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: the end times. I don't know if that was a

521
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: rumor I heard, I'm not sure. But so that's the

522
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: thing that people say about I think that's dispensationalism. That's

523
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: the thing that people say about about these guys. Certainly

524
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: a lot of them preach it, uh, that sort of thing.

525
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: I am not persuaded that that many of them really

526
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: actually believe it, I think, and some do. There's true

527
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: believers around there, but but uh, but yeah, whether whether

528
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: people actually believe that or whether it's a good tool

529
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: for raising a lot of money, right and for sort

530
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: of yeah, totally for sort of yeah, forgetting forgetting people

531
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: to be engaged who don't know any better. Yeah, yeah,

532
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: that that makes a lot of sense. I think of

533
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: sometimes the people at the top do things very cynically

534
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: in order to you know, uh, motivate religious fervor or whatever.

535
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: But speaking of raising a lot of money, this show

536
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: is supported by ads, and I'm trying to push for

537
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: all of our shows to be sponsored only by wholesome concepts,

538
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: and so we haven't totally succeeded yet, but I'm really

539
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: excited about, for example, this podcast being supported by the

540
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: concept of Potatoes. Just not not an individual brand, not

541
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: not anything like that. The show is supported by the

542
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: concept of Yeah, that's my plan. Yeah, I'm trying to

543
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: work on getting Potato mine this concept because I'm very

544
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: into this. Okay, So I'm wondering if you have any

545
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: additional suggestions about sponsors that are entirely wholesome and are

546
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: not actual existent products that you would like to be

547
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: sponsored by. I mean, I think about this sort of

548
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: thing a lot. Is I used to you know, sponsored

549
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: by goodness or sponsored by books. Books is good. So

550
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: we can be sponsored by books. Of course, we can

551
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: be sponsored by books. Who wouldn't want to be sponsored

552
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: by books? Yeah? I like it all right, Well, this

553
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: podcast is proudly supported by the concept of books. It

554
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether they're audio books or e books, or

555
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: books that someone else reads to you or books you

556
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: read by yourself. Books as well as these other products

557
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: and services. Okay, and we are back and we are

558
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: talking about a whole bunch of bakery in England. What

559
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: is your discipline? What is this your day job? Or

560
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: do you? Are you a professor? What do you do

561
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: me personally? You personally? I am this is I work

562
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: at a nonprofit that has nothing to do with any

563
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: of this, and I do this professionally. And I have

564
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: no background in history. I'm a fiction writer. Basically, you

565
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: do fiction. So I'm just curious, like, like, um, did

566
00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: you you have a b A? Did you could do

567
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: you go to undergrad? Now? I went to art school

568
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: for two years and dropped out art school. Okay, Yeah,

569
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: It's like I feel like you have a passion for history, right,

570
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: It's like it's very clear. It's like, I also don't

571
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: think you have to be an academic to be that,

572
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: but I'm actually more interested by that because you're you're American, right,

573
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: you're from her here, right. Yeah. I mean, as you

574
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: probably have noticed, most Americans, myself included, are really incredibly

575
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: ignorant as far as history goes. You know, you get

576
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: a little further. I mean, Americans will believe almost anything

577
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: about it. Whereas if you read French literature, uh, you know,

578
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: and of course you have to solve for okay, well

579
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: you're reading novelists there, right, and so that that's that's

580
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: a subsets not every French person obviously, you know, but

581
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: but the the stuff that it is assumed you would

582
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: know if you're bothering to read the book right on.

583
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: Practically any French book you grab it is considerably broader

584
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: than you know, pretty much any English language book you'd

585
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: buy written by an Americans. It's a who like, well,

586
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: if I will explain the history to you if you

587
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: need to know it, right, whereas if you read a

588
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: bunch of French novels, if you already know the stuff,

589
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: they're not going to throw you an or you know,

590
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: it's all right. Yeah, So I'm interested by that that.

591
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's good for late people, right,

592
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: for non academics to say doing history is is cool

593
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: and fun, right, So well, yeah, that was actually kind

594
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: of I mean, I didn't care about history when I

595
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: was a kid, right, And I didn't care about history

596
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: until I kind of got more politically engaged, because then

597
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: I suddenly had a aside I'm rooting for. And it's

598
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: usually like whatever populist revolt or whatever the anarchists are doing,

599
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 1: or whatever the the people trying to make people more

600
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: free and oppress each other less. Right, I suddenly was like, oh,

601
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: now I see history as this like the grandest story

602
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: ever told, with like all of these inter weaving pieces,

603
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, like it it makes Game of Thrones look

604
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: like nothing, right, you know, And and so now I

605
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: really care about it. And then I kind of also

606
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: have this, maybe almost more than I should. I kind

607
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: of have this like wire history books boring that the

608
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: stuff in them is really interesting. And I think it's

609
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: because I don't have this academic background where I, like,

610
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know how to engage. You know. It's

611
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: history books didn't always engage me. Some of them do.

612
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: Some of them are incredibly well written and engaging, but sure, no,

613
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: but many of them are hard to follow. I It's

614
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: one of those things It's like it's like with any

615
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: any harder science sort of discipline, is like it's actually

616
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: really good and important if you learn about it so

617
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: and you will get a lot of pleasure. But but

618
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: it also doesn't give you the pleasure initially unless you're

619
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: already hard wired that way. Right, Yeah, totally. I think

620
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: I think Margaret's ability to like right fiction in such

621
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: a beautiful way has made her nonfiction history podcast have

622
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of like that magic in it, a

623
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: little bit of that sparkle. And I think that's why

624
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: this show works so well is because of Margaret's like

625
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: writing is just so like you feel like you're there.

626
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I appreciate that Margaret got a compliment and

627
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: didn't know how to know. It was like, whoa, that's

628
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: probably on that we're joking that there's like a cool

629
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: people did cool stuff Bengo card for the ship that

630
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: comes up over and Brea and yeah, Margaret a complimented

631
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: and freezing should definitely be a spot. Yeah. Also me

632
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: not getting any pop culture references that that's a really

633
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: big one. So John, if you ever want to make

634
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: pop culture references that go over my head, feel free

635
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: you get the wrong guy. I was, I got I

636
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: got a what from a friend of mine just said, well,

637
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: you're talking about Jaws. Is like, no, I haven't seen it.

638
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, I think I've seen Jaws. I think

639
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: I've at least seen excerpts from Jaws. Um. But but

640
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: I think the fact that I would come up with

641
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: when I would think of pop culture, I would also

642
00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: think about movies from decades ago. So but yeah, I

643
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: mean I haven't seen any of them. I haven't. The

644
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: only Star Wars I've seen is the first one. Oh no, wait,

645
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: then my gaming group took me to see Rogue one,

646
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: so I also saw that one. Okay, it was fun. Yeah,

647
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: that's kind of okay, enjoying them. But what I wish

648
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: there was I want to build you know, why isn't

649
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: there a fan culture around the levelers? That's what I

650
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: want to get to. So, well, there is, but it's not.

651
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: So that's what we're talking about earlier. There there is

652
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: such a fan culture, but it doesn't it doesn't generally

653
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: feature people who are going to be doing this sort

654
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: of standing right, the sort of elevating figures into the usio.

655
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: Like when you're a teenager and you say, oh so

656
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: and so David Bowie is literally perfect human being. You

657
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 1: say things like that, right, Yeah, these are are certain

658
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: things to say about anyone, right, But the people who

659
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: get into the diggers, the wobblies whoever, right, uh, tend

660
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: not to be the people who are goes through into history.

661
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: They know better than to over elevate. Now, I think

662
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: it's also the case that I sort of feel like

663
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: that's not true of all. There's certainly a lot of

664
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: political standhood and I'm not gonna I'm gonna step anything here,

665
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: but like, you know, you know people who are who

666
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: are apologists for figures who may have meant very well,

667
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: who may have actually done a lot of good, but

668
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: who may have also done a number of monstrous things.

669
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: And I you know, those of us who lean very

670
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: far to the left, like myself, often have a lot

671
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: of friends who will say so and so on balance

672
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: is good, and you go, well, I don't know if

673
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: on balance as good as a good way of just

674
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: so and so on balancing a lot of good. That's

675
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: as far as I'm generally willing to go with anybody. So, uh,

676
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, but there's so there's so much sort of

677
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: uh stand culture stuff done about saying, you know, about

678
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: putting people's faces on T shirts and so forth. And

679
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: I think the movements that you're talking about don't lend

680
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: themselves well to that, in part because the people right

681
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: really we're kind of grubby love you know, it's really good.

682
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, totally, I I agree with you. That's

683
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: what I got. So okay. So, and one of the

684
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: things I like about the English Civil War is okay.

685
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: So when I first heard about it, killing kings good,

686
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm happy. I like the Parliament. Then I learned more

687
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: about it, and then I said, genocide in the Irish

688
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: where my family comes from. Bad. I don't like them anymore.

689
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean I like the king either. And

690
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: so what I've learned, and one of the things I

691
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: get really excited about is realizing that even within these

692
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: two sides of a war, there's actually cultures and people

693
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: on both sides were actually kind of interesting. I'm not

694
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: trying to both well, actually, I guess I'm trying to

695
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: both sides of stupid war. You know, both sides of

696
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: it sucked. This is where I'm at on the English

697
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: Civil War. But I don't think I want to say

698
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: the fact that dumb dudes. Uh, and and people with

699
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: a real political agenda about it have given a bad

700
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: name to try and see both sides of something, right, Yeah, uh,

701
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: but they do so in bad faith, right, They both

702
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: sides things in order to to distract you and take

703
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: it away from your point. When we're doing history, you

704
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: have to look at all all angles. It's not about sides,

705
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: because the notion that there are sides, I mean, there

706
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: are sides eventually, I guess, but like, uh, you know,

707
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: I would I would hope that a lot of the

708
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: work we're doing right now on thinking about gender and

709
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: sex would help us to also divest ourselves of all

710
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: our binary assumptions, right, insisting that on sides instead of angles. Right,

711
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: Because because there's a lot of angles, People have a

712
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: lot of interests. People act for a lot of different reasons,

713
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: and how we describe that is how we do history, right,

714
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: if we describe things in terms of Tolstoy talks a

715
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: lot about this in the Inter War and Peace about

716
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: great man theory verse. According to Tolstoy, there is no

717
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: no great man ever did a goddamn thing. It's all

718
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: just the people down in the trenches doing stuff. According

719
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: to how hungry they were that day. And uh, and

720
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: the Great Man is sort of the guy who happens

721
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: to be there at the time, right, And he's ruthless

722
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: about this. He spends a hundred pages on this. Uh.

723
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: But but that's one way of thinking about There's other people,

724
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: fascists who who think no, no, it's a powerful man

725
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: always right who um, who whose will is able to

726
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: impose on the people. And this is Machiavelli, right, these

727
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: kinds of people. Um. I don't know what my jumping

728
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: off point was here. I can never remember where I

729
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: started talking about stuff. No, no, no, but this is okay.

730
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: This is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is

731
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: that Tolstoy is also in the Bengo card because it

732
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: comes up constantly because it's a really important figure in

733
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 1: that entire century. So yeah, and it's just like whenever

734
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: you talk. And the other one is Quakers and this

735
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: episode was only gonna have Quakers and no Tolstoy, but

736
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: now it has told Spy, so I appreciate you bringing

737
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: that in it. I will. The thing is, I only

738
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: finished War in Piece a month ago, and I'm happy

739
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: to drag Tolstoy anywhere and everywhere always rely on me

740
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: as the Tolstoy guy. All right, um, okay, So the

741
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: side that I find interesting in well, there's a punch

742
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: of sides I find interesting on the parliamentary and side,

743
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: and then the main one are the levelers. The levelers

744
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: are this huge chunk of the revolutionary army, and they're

745
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: goal is not to create this authoritarian dictatorship under Cromwell.

746
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: Their goal is to have a full on democratic republic.

747
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: That is what they're for. Why why are they called

748
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: the levelers? So they are called the levelers. Miss it's

749
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: a misnaming. It's an insult name that they get given

750
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: because the one thing that they don't want to do,

751
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: which is why they're not as cool as the diggers

752
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: who will get too later The diggers actually do want

753
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: to get called the levelers. Anyway, no one gets called

754
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 1: what they want in England. Yeah no, I actually even

755
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: yesterday was like chatting with my English friend being like

756
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: is this true? Is it anyway? Um? So the levelers

757
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: get called the levelers because theoretically God is the great

758
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: leveler who will bring up the poor and bring down

759
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: the rich. And but the levelers that people get called

760
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: the Levelers did not actually want to create economic equality,

761
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: only political equality, and so they wanted a political revolution,

762
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 1: not social revolution. Basically, Um, they wanted to get called

763
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: the agitators, but they got named after some people that

764
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: I'm going to get to in a moment wh I'm

765
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: really excited to tell you about. Who are the original Levelers? Okay?

766
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: So uh and then one of the things that I

767
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: think is really interesting about learning about this time period

768
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: is that I'm looking at it with this very political

769
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: lens looking back, and I think of things very secularly, right, Like,

770
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm not a I'm not an atheist. Um. Somewhere in

771
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: the agnostic I contain multitudes about all this stuff, right,

772
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: But but these people are absolutely coming at all of

773
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: this theologically right. Everything is rooted in theology, all of

774
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: the different sides in these battles, um. And you know,

775
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: so instead of just focusing on how property should be distributed,

776
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: who should rule whatever, it all has this religious back background.

777
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: And I I can't necessarily do service to that because

778
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: I not incredibly theologically versed, but I just I always

779
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: feel like it's worth pointing out whenever we talk about

780
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: medieval European stuff, is he it's about theology even when

781
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: you wouldn't realize it. Um so, I mean I would,

782
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: I would actually argue that that's still true. Uh, even

783
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: even in the post Dover Beach. You know this poem

784
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: Dover Beach. Oh, well, I'm going to I'm going to

785
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: take over for a second here, Uh, the super important

786
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: poem for the modern era, for where we're at. It's

787
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: by Matthew Arnold, who's who's good generally. But but but

788
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: this is sort of the the signal Matthew Arnold poem.

789
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: As far as I'm concerned, dover Dover Beach. The sea

790
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 1: is calm tonight, the tide is full, The moon lies

791
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: fair upon the straits on the French coast. The light

792
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: gleams and is gone. The cliffs of England stand glimmering

793
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: and vast out in the tranquil bay. Come to the window.

794
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: Sweet is the night air only from the long line

795
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: of spray, where the sea meets the moon blanched land.

796
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: Listen you hear the grating roar of pebbles which the

797
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: waves draw back and fling at their return up the

798
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: high strand begin and cease, and then again begin with

799
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: tremulous cadence. Slow and bring the eternal note of sadness

800
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: in Sophocles long ago heard it on the Aegean, and

801
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: it brought into his mind the turbid ebb and flow

802
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: of human misery. We find also in the sound of thought,

803
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: hearing it by this distant northern sea. The sea of

804
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: faith was once two at the full, and round Earth's

805
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: shore lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.

806
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: But now I only hear it's melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,

807
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: retreating to the breath of the night, wind down the

808
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: vast edge's drear and naked shingles of the world. Ah, Love,

809
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: let us be true to one another, For the world

810
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams,

811
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: so various, so beautiful, so new. Hath really neither joy

812
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: nor love, nor light, nor certitude, nor peace nor help

813
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: for pain? And we are here as on a darkling plane,

814
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, where ignorant

815
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: armies clash by night. Yeah, so that's overbeach, right, and

816
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: over beach is specifically about the vacuum left by by

817
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: the receding of of ecclesiastical authority. Right, of faith. Right,

818
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: faith is not being described the way we as Americans,

819
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: we all think of my individual faith. Right, But that's

820
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: a very very very modern way of having faith. Right, faith,

821
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: faith is communal. And I have a big long stick

822
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: about this if you ever want to get about how

823
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: the notion of individual salvation and Christianity is nonsense, right,

824
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: and that Jesus would tell you so uh, it's not

825
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: about you having a personal savior. It's about all of

826
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: us getting saved. Um, and that this is this is

827
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: not a radical reading. This is like it's how it's

828
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 1: how the disciples would have thought of it. They weren't

829
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: looking for a personal savior. But but yeah, so when

830
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: the sea of faith recedes, as as Matthew Arnold notices

831
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, right, that's an old poem. When

832
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: the sea of faith recedes, there's not a lot left

833
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: to take its place, right now, this is what fascists

834
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: also say, is like, well, in the absence of religious authority, right,

835
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: people act badly. But it's not that it is that

836
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: they don't have much to believe in, right, it's that

837
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: you don't. It's hard to and you do you think

838
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: Poison said it best? We need something to believe it, right,

839
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: It's like, it's true. If you haven't got any faith

840
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: in anything, uh, then then you become cynical at best, yeah,

841
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: and nihilistic at worst, even though you know, I can

842
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: respect a good nihilist at the end of the day.

843
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: But but again, I forget why jumping off point was.

844
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: But I always I'm looking for an opening for Dover Beach. No, no, no,

845
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: And actually, for anyone who's listening, this is this is

846
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: literally why I had John come on for this episode.

847
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 1: Is I was like, I'm going to talk about absolutely

848
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: some of my favorite like religious radicals. You know, actually

849
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really cool religious radicals. But I

850
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know that. This is this is

851
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: why I picked John for this episode. Thank you. No,

852
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: I do have I do have signal texts on any

853
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: subject about growing of faith or loss of faith or

854
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: destruction of communities of faith and reach books all day. Okay. So,

855
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: so I have another question though, is so when I

856
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: whenever I read about a story about and someone in

857
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: history named Margaret, I get very excited. Do you have

858
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: any of the same built in solidarity towards John's or

859
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: is it too common of a name. No, I don't care.

860
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: I uh you know, no, I yeah, yeah, yeah, that

861
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: was always John. It doesn't doesn't really affect me that much.

862
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: The one story I do remember is once my father

863
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: who had been he was a sailor, you know, he

864
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: was in the merchant Marines and the not not during

865
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: I think maybe during the Second World where I was

866
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: loose track of it, but but he at one point,

867
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: once it was a little bit, it was it was

868
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: eight or nine, he said he had to go use

869
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: the John. I was old enough and quick enough to

870
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: interrupt him mid word and go bathroom. Right, funny moment

871
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: between father and son. Yeah, okay, well I'm gonna talking

872
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: about a John, not a bathroom, but a person. Yeah.

873
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: Because the people who get called the Levelers, they they

874
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: at that point they actually already existed. They start getting

875
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: called the levelers in the King is opposed and so

876
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: they they don't get called the levelers right away. Originally

877
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: they're called either the London Agents or John little Burns supporters.

878
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: Legend Asians a very good band name, that's true. Yeah,

879
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good band names hanging around because

880
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: there's also level Yeah, a new model army. Yeah. So

881
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: the people will get called the levelers. They want a republic.

882
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: I watched one interview or a historian who I'm not

883
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: going to name. He said the levelers wanted universal suffrage.

884
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: And the interviewer was like, so, so voting voting rights

885
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: for women and he was like, well, no, they wouldn't

886
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: have It wouldn't have occurred to them. And so universal

887
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: suffrage for all men. And so they're like voting rights

888
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: for Catholic men and they're like, well, well no, you see,

889
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: so so this is but this introduces for me the

890
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: question of historical slack, right, because I do not ask

891
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: why radicals in the to suddenly show up on the

892
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: scene demanding things that to us seems self evident. It's

893
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: like every everybody who pushes the needle I give a

894
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: little credit to Yeah, and this is why they're in

895
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: the story, as I like them. But it's worth pointing

896
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: out these these these blind spots for that. Yeah, and

897
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: so so Catholics suffrage. And then the other one that

898
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: servants don't get to vote. Well, I mean, coming out,

899
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: what kind of radicals are we? You kid? The servants? Yeah,

900
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: and so they got called so wild, right, that's the

901
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: stuff you can't get your head around, right, Is that

902
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: how it's And that's where you know you have to

903
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: you have to do that math. It's like you're asking

904
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: people from the past two to do all these righteous

905
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: things and you and you want to say it seems

906
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: self evident to all these people that servants shouldn't vote, right,

907
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Like that's the bedrock if you have that as a

908
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: communal assumption. It's almost like you have a bunch of

909
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: people who believe that there's a monster living in the hills,

910
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: and they and they base all of their actions on

911
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: the fact that the monster has to be appeased. Right. Well,

912
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: now you would say, look, I know I've seen those hills,

913
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: there's no monster there, right. But but we would say, look,

914
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: if if they all believe that and act according accordingly, right,

915
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: then you can't judge their actions based on your knowledge

916
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: that there's no monster, right. Uh. And And in the

917
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: same way, it's like, you know, it's very hard to

918
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: even understand it all where anither they're coming from because

919
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: it's so many other it is or not just foreign

920
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: to us, but utterly alien, right, like alien in a

921
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: in a profound sense. It's just it's I mean, look,

922
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: having servants is a is a hard notion for me

923
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: to get my head around. It's one reason I can't

924
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: read um. A lot of nineteent century British fiction is like,

925
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: I just don't relate, like I can't. I struggle with

926
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: Jane Austin. It worships Jane Austin. Right. But here's another

927
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: my things. Nobody ever speaks their mind, right. I think

928
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: people fetishize this in nineteenth century British stuff. They go, oh,

929
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: it's beautiful the way they're not allowed to speak. No,

930
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: I can't deal with it. You know, is if you

931
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: read eighteenth century British fiction, people are actually pretty blunt.

932
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: At some point in the nineteenth century they decide they

933
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: never want to speak directly. And you know, and also

934
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: sexuality of any expression at all, it's completely submerged in

935
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: a way that I cannot relate to in any way. Uh,

936
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: and and all this stuff is so so alien. But

937
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: but when I read like, uh, Ivy Compton Burnett, right,

938
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: she's really aware, she's right in the twentieth century. And

939
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: her people have servants, but they don't really they can't

940
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: really actually afford servants, right. The servants are often staying

941
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: on to preserve an old order that has actually passed

942
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: and it's very interesting. Um, but yeah, it's like that's

943
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: that's the that's the past. Stuff that's very hard to

944
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: It's always good to remind ourselves that when we're talking

945
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: about these people. One way of teaching history is to say, well,

946
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 1: they were more or less like us, they had different customs,

947
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: And I would say, no, they weren't. I mean, the

948
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: thing is they were not. They were not like us,

949
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: except I also argue esthetically, generally speaking, they were much

950
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: more innovative than we give them credit for. Like like

951
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: like Americans think that the novel was born in the

952
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: twentieth century instead of the second century. A d uh,

953
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: you know. And they think that the that the modern novel,

954
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: the radical novel was born with Ulysses, when actually that

955
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: was born in the eighteenth century. Defoe's novels are sane, right, Okay,

956
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: So so in those things, I've always wanted to give

957
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: the past more credit. But other ways, obviously know, they

958
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: weren't like us at all. It's a completely foreign country,

959
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: like foreign planet. Yeah. Yeah, And and even just like

960
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 1: when you see the medieval maps of the world and

961
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that doesn't make any sense. You're like, well,

962
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: it actually does make sense because it's cosmological, because you

963
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: have to include the cosmology. Otherwise the whole map doesn't

964
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: make any sense. It begins with a totally different set

965
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: of assumptions, and so and so the leveler is definitely

966
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: coming from a different set of assumptions, right They They

967
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: get called the levelers derogatorially because it had been used

968
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: fifty years earlier. Derogatorially at some of my favorite people

969
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: in history, who are these original levelers who are tearing

970
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: down land enclosures. See so England has this long history

971
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: of the commons or common land, which can be used

972
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: by all kinds of different people. Right, you could, you

973
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: could fish, you could take firewood, you can take sod

974
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: for fuel, you could graze your livestock. You could even

975
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: mind for minerals on some of the public lands. And

976
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: they've been doing this for entries. The entire society was

977
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,439
Speaker 1: built around it. The word commoner, I think comes from

978
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: someone who relies on the commons, right, and owners of

979
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: manners were expected to maintain enough commons on their property

980
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: for the commoners to make use of them, and slowly

981
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: they started in closing them. They fence off the lands,

982
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: they hold them in private by the owner of the manner.

983
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: They cut people off of the resources that they relied on,

984
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: and it it helps the rich maximize their profit fun

985
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: everyone else. And a lot of people have pointed to

986
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: this as kind of the start of capitalism, and which

987
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: is not by name, right, but it was about what

988
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: would happened later. And this is actually where the word

989
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: landlord comes from, the lord of the manor who owns

990
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: all the land. Um. And then I looked it up

991
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 1: because I was kind of curious. The word capitalism shows

992
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: up much later. It's coined by by socialists like Blanchie

993
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: and it's a way of it's a way of describing history. Yeah, totally.

994
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: And and before capitalism was a word, it was actually

995
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: a job title capitalist. Well it's kind of an opposite

996
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: job to it was no actual job, you know, but

997
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: it was like, what do you do for your living? Oh,

998
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: I'm a capitalist. I own stuff that other people use.

999
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: So anyway, a lot of popular revolt in England is

1000
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: driven by the enclosure of the commons. And one of

1001
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 1: my favorite ones was a man named Captain Pouch Yeah

1002
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: in in six seven. Oh, actually, I think it might

1003
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: be time for an ad break before I tell you

1004
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: about Captain Pouch. So read a book during the ads

1005
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:38,439
Speaker 1: instead of listening to them. And here's some ads. Okay,

1006
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: we're back. So in seven you have the Midlands Revolt,

1007
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: which starts in April and Northamptonshire Shire. I don't know

1008
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: it spreads from there the Leader by all accounts. And again,

1009
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: whenever you read this stuff about like the leader in history,

1010
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: you're like, was he who knows? So there's a tinker

1011
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: named Captain Pouch, and he claims that he has a

1012
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: authority from the King and God to tear down the

1013
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: enclosures non violently, and said that the contents of his pouch,

1014
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: which is a magic pouch, would keep everyone who followed

1015
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: him safe from harm. More than a thousand people men

1016
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: and women. I think children also uh participate in this.

1017
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: And these are probably the original levelers. There might have

1018
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: been people getting called this before they literally level the

1019
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: hedges that enclosed the comments in the name of God,

1020
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: who is the great leveler. Of course, Captain Pouch was

1021
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 1: was lying on at least one count. He was lying

1022
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: about having the King's permission. He may or may not

1023
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: have been lying about the pouch he certainly. I don't

1024
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: know whether he believed the Pouch, but the Pouch did

1025
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: not succeed at keeping them all safe. And I can't

1026
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: tell you one way or the other about whether God

1027
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: gave him permission or not. This does sound like a

1028
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: science fiction book. Oh yeah, no, totally or superhero. So yeah,

1029
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: Captain Pouch the original superhero. He's tearing down hedges and

1030
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: ship rich landowners. They have actual mission from the king.

1031
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: They send their servants to fight the crowd. They kill

1032
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: about fifty of them. The landowners have to use their

1033
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: servants to fight the crowd because the local militias and

1034
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: all the gangs and ship wouldn't do it because they

1035
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: were participating in the revolts by and large, and the

1036
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: uprising leader the leaders of the Uprising, including Captain Pouch,

1037
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: get hung, drawn and quartered. And I didn't really know

1038
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: what this meant. And I try not to go into

1039
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: the super graphic stuff very often on this show, but

1040
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna describe hung drawn and quartered because it was

1041
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: worse than I thought it was. They they drag you

1042
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: behind a horse, They hang you till you're almost dead,

1043
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: They disembow you alive. They make you watch as they

1044
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: burn your entrails. Then they behead you. Then they cut

1045
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: your body into four pieces, and then they send the

1046
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: pieces of your body to the far corners of the country. Yeah,

1047
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: it's super brutal. It's a I means fast. You think. Well,

1048
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 1: people were real assholes, and they would and there's these

1049
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: are public things. People were watching. The children are this

1050
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: all the time? You know? It's yeah, I guess the

1051
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: landowners really like their hedges, you know, don't pock my

1052
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: headge or well again, who among us? Yeah? You know, right.

1053
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: So after this execution, they opened his pouch and it

1054
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: contains a small bit of green cheese, so which probably

1055
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: didn't keep him safe except maybe in the like you know,

1056
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: remembered in history version of safe. I don't know, but

1057
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: it might have given him the courage it took to

1058
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: go do these things. I don't know whatever and my

1059
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: hearing and this is entirely based on me not understanding

1060
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: pop cultures. That green lantern might be descended from the

1061
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: green cheese people. But I don't know, because I don't

1062
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: actually know anything about green lantern. But I don think

1063
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: it's a lantern. A green lantern has to say a

1064
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: poem to invoke his powers. Which is very cool. Oh

1065
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: really okay, Yeah, Captain Pouches has to say it, but

1066
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: he has a poem anyway, which is great. Yeah, okay,

1067
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: then this is definitely Captain Pouches the ancestor of Green Lantern.

1068
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: It's cannon um because that's a property that I own. Okay,

1069
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: And so the the over the top executions do not

1070
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: make people happy, right, public pressure mounts. King James the

1071
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: first issues this royal proclamation in June, saying he's gonna

1072
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: look into reforms. Um. I couldn't actually find any information

1073
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: about whether he actually did any of the reforms he

1074
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: said he would do because he was too busy. King

1075
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: King James got up to a lot. He created Great Britain,

1076
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: He started the English colonization of North America. He was

1077
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: an openly gay king who spent all of his time

1078
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: burning witches and writing books about demons. And it's his

1079
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 1: translation of the Bible that the King James that correct

1080
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. But I'm under the impression this

1081
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: is the one that's used the most often by anti

1082
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: LGBT bigots. Yeah, I mean King James is it's fetishized

1083
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: and uh, it's it's not considered it's just the thing

1084
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: is that it's beautiful. It's some of the most beautiful

1085
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: writing in in the English language. However, much of the

1086
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: translation is there because King James likes the way it sounds.

1087
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: There's a lot of a lot of bad translation, like

1088
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: in terms of the h in terms of the meaning,

1089
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: there's like there's a lot especially the stuff about servants

1090
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: having to be good and stuff like that. Um well,

1091
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: that stuff there's a lot of ways you can treat

1092
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: that stuff in both the Hebrew and the septuagient um. Uh.

1093
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: But but the King James style is to is to

1094
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: preserve the rights of the king and so forth. So

1095
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: King James is like, it's not it's not the translation

1096
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: you should read if you want to know what the

1097
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: Bible is about. It is, however, one of the most

1098
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: beautiful uh texts ever written. So now that this is good,

1099
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: that's exactly the like, yeah, because I'm just like, oh,

1100
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: this seems to be the one that my friends tell

1101
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: me is not very accurate. So um So these revolts,

1102
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: this is again before the main levels in the English

1103
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: Civil War. These revolts make their way into Shakespeare, who

1104
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: was against land enclosure. He alluded to it unsubtly at

1105
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: LEAs to his audience at the time. And Henry the

1106
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: Sixth Part two, which I have definitely not read. Um,

1107
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: I read Shakespeare, but I've not read this one. Henry

1108
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: the Sixth Part two. Yeah, wow, No I didn't. I'm

1109
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: pretty versed in Shakespeare, but I don't know that one.

1110
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: It's a it's a deep cut. So my theory is

1111
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: that it's actually about um, a lantern full of green cheese.

1112
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: So these are the original Levelers, rowdy commoners who are

1113
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: upset that about being told that they would have to

1114
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: starve rather than let the rich maximize their profit or whatever.

1115
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: Fifty years later you have the new Levelers. They got

1116
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: given the name as an insult. John Lilleburne is one

1117
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: of the leaders, and he preferred the term agitators, which

1118
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: makes sense because they weren't leveling, right. But John Lilleburne

1119
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 1: was not the sole leader of the Levelers. People call

1120
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: him that now because of the great Man theory nonsense.

1121
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: But the the movement seemed to coalesce around one of

1122
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: the many campaigns to get him out of jail because

1123
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: he kept getting thrown in jail because he was an

1124
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: obstinate bastard, who was actually really cool in many ways,

1125
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: not in other wise. He was the second son of gentry,

1126
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: which is a whole thing. He wasn't expecting inheritance. So

1127
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: there's these second sons were a big source of social unrest. Uh,

1128
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: their nobility with nothing to lose since primogeniture, which is

1129
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: the system of inheritance that basically says everything goes to

1130
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: the oldest son. This system came over in the eleventh

1131
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: century with the Norman conquest because in it because of

1132
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: this system, you didn't have this sort of built in

1133
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: economic equalizing force where large estates were broken up every

1134
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: time someone died, right, And so it kind of allows

1135
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: feudalism to really take off. This system of inheritance. On

1136
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: the other hand, gavel kind secession, which is the kind

1137
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: before it, which is when all hairs usually sons, get

1138
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: a piece of the estate. You have all these wars

1139
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: as everyone tries to like recreate the largest states and ship.

1140
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: So it kind of seems fucked either way, honestly. Yeah.

1141
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: But but John, this is the thing the line I

1142
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: keep like, I keep looking at. It's not hopeful, is

1143
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: this Samuel Beckett line, Uh, you're on Earth, there's no

1144
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: cure for that. It's like, I guess sort of feel like,

1145
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of a lot of collectivists stuff

1146
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: that that that we assume everybody at core shares, and

1147
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:21,959
Speaker 1: then we still teach you have to sort of behave

1148
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: as if they did. Been asking myself a lot of

1149
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: questions about that lately, whether actually, actually there's a small

1150
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: bunch of us who who sort of believe in injustice,

1151
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: and then a whole bunch of people who do not

1152
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: give a shit. It's a good who just use the

1153
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 1: language of it to get whatever they want. Yeah, yeah,

1154
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean, like a large number of them. It's very

1155
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm mr you know, I'm a Christian,

1156
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: like I want to believe. I do believe that in

1157
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: everybody God's inside there. But I sort of feel like

1158
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: the and and this is where you know, I think

1159
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: obviously to wave your hand and say late capitalism is

1160
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: sort of very vogue ish now, but you know, but

1161
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: the ongoing march of capitalism. And I would argue and

1162
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: and industrialization generally speaking, which like that's a different argument

1163
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: because but also industrialization is the reason that fewer people

1164
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: starved than used to. Is like, if you think hunger

1165
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: is bad. Now, you should try some hunger in the

1166
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: twelfth century, because I think there's you know, it's an

1167
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: Industrialization has helped a lot of people, and a lot

1168
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: of good Communists understood this right, that right, it could

1169
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: be used for the good of the people. But on

1170
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: the other hand, the march of industrialization has resulted in

1171
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: the world that we have, and I don't know how

1172
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: it Yeah, yeah, no, totally, yeah, yeah, exactly. So John Lilleburn,

1173
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: he's not gonna inherit ship. He goes off to London

1174
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: apprentices as a cloth merchant. His first arrest was he

1175
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: was trying to smuggle some band religious pamphlets into the

1176
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: country that claimed bishops were doing the work of the devil.

1177
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: He refused to acknowledge the court, which also might be

1178
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: a space on this Bengo card. The same patterns come

1179
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: up over and over again, jump in again, all the

1180
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: anti Catholic stuff, the anti bishop stuff. Like they were

1181
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: good at at then, like there was it was a

1182
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: there was a really good whereas now like one thing

1183
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: that's a source of great frustration for the American right

1184
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: is that they don't own the Catholic Church right, and

1185
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: that they can't seem to get the Catholic Church because

1186
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church is a lot browner than they like, right,

1187
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church the global South, the Catholic Church through

1188
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: ill through horrible means, mind you. But they did they

1189
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: got that right. They they established churches down there and

1190
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: now and then they became radical. Right, there's a lot

1191
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: of radical Catholic priests in the history of the last

1192
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: fifty seventy five years. They know when I say radical,

1193
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: are the approach choice, like me, No, they're not, right.

1194
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: I have to sort of accept that, you know, but

1195
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: because that's the church. But um, but they're but they

1196
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: also are kind of communist, a lot of them, and

1197
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: said so uh, And it drives the American right absolutely

1198
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: bonkers that they can't have the Catholic Church, and they

1199
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: keep thinking there's gonna be a schism. This is one

1200
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: of the things to see Bannon likes to think about

1201
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: a lot, because they really would love to have the

1202
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: amount of power and clout that Catholics have. Right, so

1203
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: they sort of try and stoke fires of Catholic suspicion,

1204
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: but at the same time, like they don't actually want

1205
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 1: to go full anti Catholic because there's too much power

1206
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: there that they thirst for, right, and if they do

1207
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: too much damage to the brand, then when they get

1208
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: their imagined takeover, which is never gonna happen, uh, there

1209
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: would be nothing left to it. It's it's all. I'm

1210
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 1: an ex Catholic. So the sims really, as soon as

1211
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: I hear about their coming from the bishops, I go, yeah, yeah,

1212
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: it's I don't you know the anti Catholic. As we know,

1213
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: humans just seem to want to be dicks to other people,

1214
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: to groups of people, and they have to figure out

1215
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: what groups are gonna be dicks to today on a

1216
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: given eon or whatever. And and the anti Catholic stuff

1217
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: is so fascinating. It's like, you know, so the things

1218
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: of all people, why are you mad at the Catholic student?

1219
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: I know, I know, And like how much of it

1220
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: is in this time period? How much of it is

1221
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: like literally just like when we like oppressing in the

1222
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: Irish and how much of it is like that we're

1223
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: afraid Rome's gonna invade and we're trying to do our

1224
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 1: like Church of England thing and yeah, and then of

1225
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: course the pure Yeah, well I think some of it.

1226
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a lot of it is like the

1227
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: notion that the Romans, uh, you know, they had a

1228
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: history of conquest, and and maybe the Church, well, the

1229
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: Church also has a history of conquest, so maybe the Church,

1230
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: after it finishes colonized in the West might come for that.

1231
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, so he gets put in front of court.

1232
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: He refuses to acknowledge the court, and he's just like

1233
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: and he says, I'm a a freeborn no freeborn Englishman

1234
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: should be treated that way, And he didn't actually mean it,

1235
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: like I'm freeborn like the people who aren't. He meant

1236
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: it kind of in this like we're all freeborn, right,

1237
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: And so the court doesn't like him very much because

1238
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: he won't acknowledge them. So he gets tied to the

1239
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: back of a cart and dragged through the street and

1240
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: lashed five times with a knotted leather whip and throwing

1241
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 1: stacks and but he he remains defiant the whole time.

1242
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: The crowd what if what if? Like what if? I

1243
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: was like, can you tell me more about the whips?

1244
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: Like he can, you can get some more detail, and

1245
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: like it was emerging over the course of the conversation

1246
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: like that was something I really needed. Torture that'd be

1247
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: very cathtic of you. Yes, but yeah and so and

1248
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: so the crowd loves him, right because he's like the

1249
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: whole time, he's like being defiant and yelling and giving speeches,

1250
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: and he gets thrown in prison for the indefinite sentence

1251
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: of until you obey. And then eventually yeah, talking about

1252
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: the fetishism there, Yeah, totally. Um. Eventually Parliament forms in

1253
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: eighteen forty and frees him. As soon as he's out,

1254
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: he's back in the streets fighting and protesting and rioting

1255
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: against the king. He's helping lead the London unrest that

1256
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: sends Charles the First fleeing London. At one point, him

1257
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: and a bunch of armed civilians like stare down royalist officers.

1258
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: All this stuff that kind of kicks off the First

1259
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: Civil War. And and one of the things that I

1260
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: think about with this person, because he's a little bit

1261
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 1: all over the map ideologically when you try to map

1262
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: him from current right. He has a little bit of

1263
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: the like almost right wing Founding fathers in him, but

1264
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: he's also very you know, progressive in other ways and

1265
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: all this different stuff is that he has no political

1266
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: intellectual history to draw from, uh that represents these ideas

1267
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: This is from a from an English point of view,

1268
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: this is the birthplace of a lot of the ideas,

1269
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: at least as I was able to find. And so

1270
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: he he basically goes to the Bible and he finds

1271
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: every single Gallitarian source in the Bible he can to

1272
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: justify his actions, and he then enlists to overthrow the king.

1273
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: They overthrow the king. He fought a bunch of battles.

1274
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 1: He fights in the infantry. Later he's a dragoon, which

1275
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: is mounted infantry. You got a musket and an axe

1276
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: and a sword and one of the shittiest horses, and

1277
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: you're like sent to go like ride off and then

1278
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: get off your horse and then shoot people. And eventually

1279
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: gets captured while he's trying to rally retreating troops to

1280
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 1: stand their ground. He's it's a big war hero, right,

1281
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: and the royalists are going to probably kill him. They're

1282
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: gonna try him and probably kill him. But his wife, Elizabeth,

1283
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 1: who is like I think like eight months pregnant at

1284
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: the time, she petitioned to the people in charge of

1285
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 1: the rebellion to intervene on his behalf and then she

1286
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: crosses enemy lines by herself, I believe, or at least.

1287
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe she was by hersel. Maybe shoot

1288
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: people with there, but it implies that she was by herself.

1289
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: She goes through military checkpoints. She shows up and she's like, hey,

1290
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 1: if you execute my husband, the rebels are going to

1291
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: kill a bunch of the prisoners. So he's freed. His

1292
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: wife saves his life, um, and he gets free in

1293
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 1: the prisoner exchange. He goes right back to fighting. He

1294
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: gets shot through the arm. This has no impact on

1295
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: his desire to keep fighting. He will fight through any

1296
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 1: of this. He makes friends with Oliver Cromwell in a

1297
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: made for movie friendship that is destined to become a rivalry.

1298
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 1: And at one point he asks permission to storm a

1299
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: Royalist holding and they're like He's like, hey, if we attack,

1300
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: they'll just surrender, and his commanders are like, no, no, no,

1301
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 1: you can't attack. So he attacks anyway and the holding

1302
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: surrenders without a shot fired. But then he finally quits

1303
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: fighting before the war is over, before it's won, because

1304
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: the parliamentarians, all of the people in the army were

1305
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: asked to sign a covenant denying freedom of religion, and

1306
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,799
Speaker 1: you know they're Puritans, so nothing else should be allowed,

1307
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: and this is too much for him, even though if

1308
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 1: I think he was a Puritan, but he he was

1309
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: at least very Protestant, right, and he won't do it,

1310
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 1: So he refuses to sign his contract and he gets

1311
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: kicked out of the military, even though he's this big

1312
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: war hero and friends with the leader and all that ship.

1313
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: So I like him for this. And then he gets

1314
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 1: thrown in prison because he denounces the fact that the

1315
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: members of parliament were rich despite the fact that the

1316
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: commoners were poor. He like. Later he gets thrown in

1317
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: prison again for denouncing his former commander for being an asshole. Um.

1318
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 1: He basically it seemed like he was only happy when

1319
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 1: he was either like fighting in a war or in prison. Um.

1320
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,560
Speaker 1: His friends make fun of him for being so oppositional

1321
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: that his friends joked if there were none living but himself,

1322
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: John would be against Lilburn and Lilburn would be against John.

1323
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 1: But I actually think he was releasably consistent. He just

1324
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 1: hated all the hypocrites around him, and that's why he's

1325
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: so oppositional. He didn't lead the levelers alone, nor was

1326
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 1: he particularly in charge. He was up, but he was

1327
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 1: and he was a team player, even though he's very

1328
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: oppositional right. The crew of leaders of the Levelers was

1329
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: referred to at the time as a collective, and it

1330
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: was not about his ego. Most of the other writer

1331
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: other leaders were good writers, but John Lieburn was not.

1332
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 1: Apparently he he did a lot of it, but this

1333
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: was not his calling. His calling was fighting and theology

1334
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: and stuff. And there's one big downside from my point

1335
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 1: of view, John have even heard the terms brochialist or

1336
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: manarchist before I've run across them. I haven't engaged them

1337
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: deeply enough to to tell you much more about them

1338
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, fair enough. This is the energy that

1339
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 1: John Lieburn brings up. His big blind spot is how

1340
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 1: he treats his wife. Um. Every time he's thrown in prison,

1341
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Lieburn is there fighting for his release and supporting him,

1342
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 1: and at one point, while he's an exile, later Elizabeth

1343
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:49,600
Speaker 1: writes to him and says, look, if you could just

1344
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,879
Speaker 1: make friends, if you could just make peace with Cromwell,

1345
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: you could come home, like, stop being so obstinate, please

1346
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 1: come home, and he writes back. Instead of writing her back,

1347
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: he writes a public letter calling out his coward wife,

1348
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: who was like the father of like I think nine

1349
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 1: of his kids or whatever ship, and I want to

1350
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 1: loude in a time when public letters matter, I want

1351
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: to I want that to actually be something. Yeah, well,

1352
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: now we just have the like endless see of Twitter

1353
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: call outs, you know. And so he he writes this

1354
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,600
Speaker 1: letter that's basically like, no one would be worthy of

1355
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 1: the name of a man indeed man indeed isn't all caps,

1356
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: who's not morally honest in just in his ways, and

1357
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: would therefore, you know, etcetera, etcetera, he would never give

1358
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 1: in uh, but thou art but a woman, and in

1359
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: that respect, but the weaker vessel. And therefore I must

1360
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 1: rationally allow you more grains of imperfection and weakness, imperfection

1361
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 1: and weakness or in all caps, and especially since you're pregnant.

1362
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: So that's his public letter to his wife or saying,

1363
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: please just stopping obson to come home. And he might

1364
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: even been right about he should stay obstinate and not

1365
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: come home, right it It doesn't doesn't seem like a

1366
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: nice way to treat the woman who saved your life.

1367
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: So and but the women of the Leveler movement actually

1368
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 1: did do a lot within the kind of context they

1369
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: are withins who were sort of talking about earlier. They

1370
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 1: ran printing presses, they wrote petitions, they organized amongst themselves,

1371
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: not just like appendageous to their husbands. They went to jail.

1372
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: They even occasionally demanded equal rights. They would write petitions,

1373
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: but then they weren't allowed to deliver them, so like

1374
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: their husbands would go and deliver the petitions on behalf

1375
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: of their wives, which is actually kind of cool. And

1376
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 1: and their religious beliefs believed in equality between women and men,

1377
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: equal before God, so much so that even the Quakers,

1378
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: who were like some of the most egalitarian on the

1379
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: gender lines at the time, actually wrote they would like

1380
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: complain about the prominence of women, and the Levelers mhm,

1381
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 1: but they you know, they challenged but didn't over with

1382
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 1: their gender hierarchy. And after the First War the Levelers

1383
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:02,680
Speaker 1: really stand out. They had their um. They basically they

1384
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 1: lay out this agreement of the people. It's their idea

1385
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: of a democratic republic. They get a third of all

1386
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 1: of London to sign on to this, and they delivered

1387
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 1: to Parliament being like, we won, we have this thing,

1388
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: let's do this democratic republic now, And Parliament was like no, no, no,

1389
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 1: we have power now. So fuck you go home, and

1390
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: so they get a military dictatorship instead. So he then

1391
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: John Lilburn goes on this, like he starts writing all

1392
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: these pamphlets England's new chains discovered any you know, basically

1393
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 1: is like, look we again, who among us? You know?

1394
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: We we you go through a big thing. You want

1395
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: to write some pamphlets? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. The point

1396
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:44,160
Speaker 1: of doing actions is the right manifestos, I think, Um, yeah, agreed.

1397
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:49,240
Speaker 1: And so they so all of their demands all well,

1398
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: all of their like hey, let's have a democratic republic.

1399
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 1: These are denied, right, but they're all in the military,

1400
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: and they just fought to depose a king, so they're

1401
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: not going to stop now and accept a new king.

1402
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 1: So revolt and there's mutinies all over the New Model

1403
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 1: Army actually, and this is why I think that there's

1404
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: some good stuff in the New Modelarming. Entire regiments refused

1405
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 1: to fill refused orders until a democratic republic would be

1406
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: in stated, and most notably, one of the orders that

1407
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: all the levelers refused was go invade Ireland. Um so

1408
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 1: I like those ones. I find that I find that

1409
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 1: interesting because Ireland is one of the there's a lot

1410
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:27,839
Speaker 1: of countries like this. Ireland's one, Poland is another, Vietnam

1411
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 1: is another, that have been under the state of occupation

1412
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: for so long. I mean, I can't even name how

1413
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 1: many African countries are like this, but but places that

1414
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 1: just sort of seemed to be the target of invasion

1415
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: of of larger regimes neighboring or not, like Poland. You

1416
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: can't even name the number of times Poland was just

1417
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: like occupied by somebody from the east or the west

1418
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 1: saying well, no, Poland is actually part of our country,

1419
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 1: with no sound claim on it at all. And the

1420
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 1: same Vietnam has spent most of the twentieth century with

1421
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,560
Speaker 1: either the French or whoever saying, don't know, this is

1422
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 1: our spot. And Ireland has sort of got that that

1423
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,799
Speaker 1: like it's in his continual state of people telling Ireland

1424
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: that you don't get to be Ireland. It's so you know,

1425
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: it's messed up. Yeah, yeah. And actually, at one point

1426
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:16,040
Speaker 1: I was running across in a different episode as researching,

1427
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 1: I was like, there's all of these Polish generals and

1428
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: officers who are fighting in all these revolutions in other countries.

1429
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 1: And my friend explained it to me and was like, well,

1430
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 1: the thing is is that you'd have a Polish army

1431
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: and then some fucking country would come suck it up

1432
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: and like and so all of the all of the

1433
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: Polish officers having to flee. So if you need an

1434
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,600
Speaker 1: officer that really experienced and they got nowhere else to go,

1435
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: you grab a Polish officer and you get really good

1436
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: officers out of that the asper of the Polish. And

1437
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: the other thing is like what what what kind of

1438
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:47,640
Speaker 1: effect does that have on the country. I say, well,

1439
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 1: Ireland actually very you know, it's a pretty cool place

1440
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 1: generally speaking. But you know, like in Poland, the problem

1441
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: of nationalism has been on the rise severely, and you know,

1442
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:59,720
Speaker 1: you think, well, that sort of feels like a and

1443
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: that's a consequence of people constantly telling you that you

1444
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 1: don't get you to define your own borders. Is at

1445
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,799
Speaker 1: some point, you know, you say no, no, I'm defining

1446
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: my borders and I'm going to define them in very

1447
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: harsh terms. You know, it's like it's not it's not

1448
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: a good or a reasonable response. There's understandable one, you know, Yeah,

1449
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: and I get most excited by, like, you know, folks

1450
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 1: like say there's appatistas or um I would say, huge

1451
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 1: chunks of the Kurds in Northern Syria and stuff, who

1452
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: are like, we are an oppressed nationality, but we're going

1453
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: to approach this internationally, right, Um. But I still also

1454
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I I get why the Irish or whatever,

1455
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 1: we're like, we're Irish nationalists like this, you know whatever,

1456
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 1: And I guess, real messy. I'm not trying to defend

1457
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,600
Speaker 1: especially given if if if your your main experience of

1458
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 1: these other nations is they're not going to keep their words,

1459
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 1: you know, they're not good for it. And so how

1460
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: about if I have nothing to do with you, it's yeah, exactly. Yeah.

1461
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 1: So the Levelers refuse to invade Ireland, and because they

1462
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 1: don't get a democratic republic, so they were use orders

1463
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: and some of them get court martialed, someone get executed.

1464
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 1: I believe that sometimes they would like they would make

1465
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 1: the soldiers draw lots and then the person who draws

1466
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: the short lock gets executed as a way to like

1467
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 1: punish the whole union unit or whatever. And every time

1468
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 1: a Leveler died during this, the mourners would line up

1469
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:19,600
Speaker 1: and they would wear black and sea green ribbons and

1470
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:24,799
Speaker 1: bundles of rosemary, and at one funeral for an executed soldiers.

1471
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 1: Coffin was adorned and rosemary dipped in blood, which apparently

1472
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: the association of rosemary and remembering the dead goes back

1473
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: a long way. But there was also a symbol of

1474
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: the levelers was wearing rosemary in your hats, and I

1475
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 1: always think it's classy when a movement has like this

1476
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 1: is the flower we wear. So so finally Cromwell's like

1477
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:49,240
Speaker 1: just sucking sick of them, attacks on crushes it, and

1478
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 1: they're defeated. The leaders are imprisoned. Lilburn goes back on

1479
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 1: trial for like the fifth time or something, this time

1480
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: for high treason. Like every classic revolutionary with the consciousness,

1481
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,639
Speaker 1: he spent time on trial both under the botic government

1482
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: he then helped overthrow, and then I supposed the revolutionary

1483
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: government that replaced it. Yeah, this is where I think

1484
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:08,600
Speaker 1: your politics in my intersect is like, and this is

1485
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: evidence that like the people we think are going to

1486
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: be good, once they get some power, they're usually that

1487
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 1: very good. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's like kind of the

1488
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 1: subtitle of the show. In some ways, this revolution as

1489
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 1: a lateral move Yeah, I mean, the thing is like

1490
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: I want to believe in the revolution who doesn't want

1491
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 1: to believe in the revolution as a liberating force. But

1492
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, but you look at a lot of revolutions

1493
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: and then you have to start explaining what went wrong,

1494
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,760
Speaker 1: And like the thing is that it's very convenient I

1495
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: think for our side of things these days that often

1496
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 1: we can say what went wrong with US interventionism, right,

1497
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: went wrong? It was a program of fucking with him,

1498
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:44,560
Speaker 1: right and so, and that's fair to say. It's like,

1499
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not discrediting that. However, I think I

1500
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,200
Speaker 1: don't think that if you take the US invations about

1501
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 1: I don't think we wind up with the workers paradise either.

1502
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 1: You know, I suspect that your on earth. There's no

1503
01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:00,560
Speaker 1: cure for that. Yeah. Yeah, there's the quote, Um, I

1504
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: think it's baccoonan as a quote that you take the

1505
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 1: most ardent revolutionary and invest them in absolute power and

1506
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,680
Speaker 1: will be worse than this are overnight, you know, I

1507
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 1: mean it's just power. I mean there's the bacon in like,

1508
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: like all revolutions, wants to overstate his case always do.

1509
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 1: So you remember what he said. I don't think they'll

1510
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 1: be worse than this are, but I think they'll be

1511
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 1: there yeah, it's like, you know, and the thing is,

1512
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 1: you know, this is where my you know, this is

1513
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: one of the worst Christian uh impulses that I have.

1514
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: Is like I kind of get it, you know, I

1515
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: understand how like, right now, if I'm in a state

1516
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 1: of profound discomfort backstage, I'm gonna start to complain about

1517
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: it because I have gotten used to a level of

1518
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 1: comfort and I'm a middle aged person and I can't.

1519
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 1: I can no longer be the guy at a squat,

1520
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 1: happy to play the show at the squad, you know.

1521
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: And uh, and and I think you know, once a

1522
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 1: person gets power, they understand things about power that that

1523
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: we can't understand from this side of it apprehensible until

1524
01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 1: you have it. And then and then the presidents find

1525
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 1: this out all the time they run for PRESI do.

1526
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: They say I'm gonna do this and that, and they

1527
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 1: get into the seat and they go, oh, I can't

1528
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 1: actually do anything right unless I e O it. If

1529
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 1: an executive order will then I'm not going to get

1530
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: a second term. I mean, the bad guys are willing

1531
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: to roll the dice on that, and they're doing, you know,

1532
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: an effective job for themselves right now. But but but yeah,

1533
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: it's like he's one of the things is like I

1534
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 1: do think absolutely when people get power they behave abominably.

1535
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: I also suspect that from that side of things there's

1536
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: more to know that aren't explainable until you're on that

1537
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: side of things. Told so I actually tries to do this,

1538
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, so you know, so Lilla Burn he's back

1539
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 1: on trial. He has a really good way of words though.

1540
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: He convinces the jury that he has the jury has

1541
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:41,799
Speaker 1: a better right to decide the law than the government

1542
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 1: or judges. So he gets found not guilty and then

1543
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,599
Speaker 1: he lives kind of quietly in London and he gets

1544
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: banished to the Netherlands for some other nonsense. Two years later,

1545
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 1: he comes back illegally immediately gets arrested once again. He

1546
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: talks the jury out of a death sentence. He's very

1547
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:57,560
Speaker 1: good at doing this, and he gets imprisoned on the

1548
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 1: Isle of Jersey. In sixty five, he converts to a

1549
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 1: new religion from the same era. You like me? Are

1550
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 1: you like me? Will you hear somebody has been imprisoned

1551
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 1: on an island? Do you think how come I can't

1552
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 1: get improved? You right? It sounds really go out write

1553
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: my alright, poetry on my island. It will be great. Yeah,

1554
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: like the I think it's I think it's Norway. I

1555
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 1: can't remember as like the famous like here's the prison

1556
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 1: island where you just you get a house and you

1557
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 1: live on the prison or Napoleon right way, Napoleon tries

1558
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 1: to conquer the entirety of Europe and then he gets

1559
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:28,640
Speaker 1: to go to Corsica right now, totally yeah, well, and

1560
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: then while he's imprisoned on this island he converts to Quakerism.

1561
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 1: And because na, no, not Napoleon, although that would be

1562
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: an interesting story on it, a good good red conning,

1563
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 1: a good good sort of that steampunk, but what do

1564
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 1: you call steampunk where it's just with religion, just imagining

1565
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 1: other rulers as belonging to different faiths. Um. And since

1566
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:55,959
Speaker 1: the Quakers are noted pacifists, he's able to write Cromwell

1567
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, I'm I'm a pacifist now, and

1568
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:00,040
Speaker 1: the Cromwell's like, fine, you're a pastist. I'll like you

1569
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 1: go because he can't lead a rebellion because he's Quaker.

1570
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: So and then okay, this is so ignorant. What your

1571
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,600
Speaker 1: pacifist for? Now? If I'm Cromwell. I'm saying, you know,

1572
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 1: it's great to even doctor to some new notion. I

1573
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 1: don't if I'm ahead of state, I don't really trust

1574
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 1: you to maintain your position much longer, especially if you've

1575
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 1: ever been to your power. It's like, so, yeah, well,

1576
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:25,680
Speaker 1: fortunately for Cromwell and unfortunately for John Loeburn. Uh, he

1577
01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:28,680
Speaker 1: dies the way that everyone dies, which is randomly of

1578
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:32,560
Speaker 1: a fever. Yeah, he's forty two years old in the

1579
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: seventeenth century, so he just dies and then Elizabeth dies

1580
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 1: like three years later. Um. I started researching this guy

1581
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:41,760
Speaker 1: expecting not to like him, because I've always known the

1582
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 1: Levelers is like the slightly more moderate, unlike the you know,

1583
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,439
Speaker 1: at some point we gonna talk about the Diggers and

1584
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:49,680
Speaker 1: and all the rest. But I just I actually really

1585
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 1: liked him. I really liked that he just said what

1586
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: he said, believed what he believed, and was just like,

1587
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do this. I'm obstinate. I'm just gonna

1588
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,600
Speaker 1: always follow my moral compass, uh wherever it leads me.

1589
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 1: So that's the Levelers, or at least John Loeburn's part

1590
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: of the Levelers, And that's the first part of what

1591
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:13,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with you about cool. Yeah, I'm

1592
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 1: intrigued by your um, your desire to have a horse

1593
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 1: in the race, to have a guy right there, whether

1594
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 1: I whether I like him or don't like him, because

1595
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 1: it's something I'm always trying not to do with history.

1596
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 1: Is like I don't want to like anybody or dislike anybody.

1597
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: I want to see what they're about, but I want

1598
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 1: to try not to be picking heroes, right, Uh, I

1599
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 1: mean again, you know I uh, I think you know

1600
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 1: crass Uk anarchist Ben had a no God's no master's slogan. Yeah,

1601
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,560
Speaker 1: and I extend that to heroes and idols. Is like

1602
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you know, we can't help but but

1603
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 1: but be impressed by people. But I think that the

1604
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 1: desire to go, oh, this guy's my friend. We don't

1605
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:58,720
Speaker 1: have any friends in history. Well that's like that's kind

1606
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:00,639
Speaker 1: of part of why I and it sounds a little

1607
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: bit backwards, but that's part of what I'm trying to do,

1608
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 1: is just be like, I want awards in all some

1609
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 1: of these people who are heroes, right, and like you

1610
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: know a lot of people are like, oh the levelers,

1611
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,800
Speaker 1: these are amazing people. And I'm like one other people,

1612
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:13,760
Speaker 1: and I like some of what they did, and I

1613
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 1: can strongly agree with that. And I think we can

1614
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: use inspiration from seeing people who like did what they

1615
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 1: believed in, you know, come hell or high water and

1616
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:28,280
Speaker 1: h without yeah, without being like, I don't want to,

1617
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:30,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to pedestal people, right, you know, it's

1618
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 1: kind of yeah, And I'm still I'm still trying to

1619
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:36,559
Speaker 1: learn exactly how to express that in these scripts and stuff.

1620
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:38,839
Speaker 1: But that's my hope. It's part of the ongoing process

1621
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:41,600
Speaker 1: of doing histories is figuring out how to deal with

1622
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: the problem of individuals. I mean, you can, you can

1623
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 1: have done with them and just talk about about movement

1624
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 1: of history, right, and and not not worry too much

1625
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 1: about individuals because they're in reliable quantities. But I mean,

1626
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 1: I mean, part of why we do is because of

1627
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: where we are at in the post Enlightenment and especially

1628
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:01,640
Speaker 1: post twentieth century, we think a lot about individuals. You know.

1629
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 1: It's one of the things that I, you know, that

1630
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 1: I that I like best about my communist friends is that,

1631
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 1: like you know, and and a lot of uh, sort

1632
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 1: of post Christian Christians, it's like obsessing about the individual

1633
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: is missing the point, we can't. The individual doesn't get

1634
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 1: the best that they can get unless unless they're sort

1635
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 1: of be raised, unless you start thinking just about the whole, right. Uh.

1636
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,479
Speaker 1: And well, one way you can practice that is also

1637
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,120
Speaker 1: in doing history, to try and not be telling stories

1638
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 1: of individuals. Right now, it's almost impossible because I'm an individual, right,

1639
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:38,960
Speaker 1: so I like to hear stories about a person, right, Uh,

1640
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 1: you know, and that's natural, that's fine, you know, there

1641
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,479
Speaker 1: is no there's a binary way of saying, well, then

1642
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: you should do it this way and not do it

1643
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: this way. But I think it's always important when we're

1644
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: telling about stories about people to like be thinking also

1645
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 1: again Tolstoy, about the currents that caused them to do

1646
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: the things they did, about how in some sense they

1647
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,600
Speaker 1: weren't making any choices at all, you know. Uh. And

1648
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 1: and the thing is like we often will then put

1649
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:03,160
Speaker 1: our own values, like, look, if you decide to hit me,

1650
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 1: that's your choice, right, and you own that choice, no

1651
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:08,679
Speaker 1: matter what caused you to do it. Yes, that's true

1652
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,760
Speaker 1: in interpersonal relations, right, but there's another historical way you're

1653
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 1: thinking it was like you were going to do that

1654
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 1: no matter what it's like. And uh, and that's that's

1655
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,160
Speaker 1: that's also stuff always worth having on hand when we're

1656
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 1: talking about this stuff. Total pleasure talking with you, ye,

1657
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 1: talking to and well, do you have any anything you'd

1658
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 1: like to plug, any anything that people should go out

1659
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 1: and listen to or read or what have you been

1660
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 1: working on? Uh, you know, trying to struggle with the

1661
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 1: rise of an incipient fashion state. Uh, it's really it's

1662
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 1: all my mind right now. It's like it's really bad.

1663
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 1: It's always you know, I have a lot of radical

1664
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 1: friends who you know, it's always been bad. Well, yes,

1665
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 1: it has always been bad. But right now we're in

1666
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: a really rough moment and it makes it feel vain

1667
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 1: for you to go. We'll go buy my new record.

1668
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 1: Of course you should buy a new record. I hope

1669
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 1: you do. I'm very proud of it. Come see us

1670
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 1: on tour. We will have a good time. We'll you know,

1671
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,280
Speaker 1: age against the you know, we'll try and try and

1672
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 1: make some you know, some diversion at best, you know,

1673
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: try and find some ecstasy. But but but the main

1674
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 1: thing I want to plug is that we collectively have

1675
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:13,720
Speaker 1: to figure something out. You know, we have to be

1676
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,400
Speaker 1: somehow looking past a number of differences to to find

1677
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:21,360
Speaker 1: our collective strength and to express it. And the thing is,

1678
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:23,439
Speaker 1: I hate to I don't want to be that means

1679
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: get out and vote. Well, those people are so tiresome, right,

1680
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 1: But it's like, I don't know what else we're gonna do.

1681
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't think we actually have the numbers to be,

1682
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,640
Speaker 1: you know, to be storming the capital or anything like that.

1683
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that's gonna happens. I also have a

1684
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:36,759
Speaker 1: whole stick about how that's not going to happen because

1685
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: of of of mass media and entertainment. That like, when

1686
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 1: we're talking about revolutions, these are people who also didn't

1687
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:45,960
Speaker 1: have TVs and computers, you know, and uh and so

1688
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:49,360
Speaker 1: it's a different world. But but yeah, but I mean collectively,

1689
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 1: that's what I want to plug is let's all collectively

1690
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 1: figure out how we're going to stem the very bad

1691
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 1: tide that that is quite obviously uh in uh in

1692
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 1: flow right now. Yeah, with fucking Middler posting turf stuff. God,

1693
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:07,479
Speaker 1: oh I haven't even seen it. Oh no, oh don't.

1694
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,599
Speaker 1: It's terrible because because she played she played it really

1695
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 1: important bathhouses and stuff. I mean, she's a genuine icon.

1696
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:21,880
Speaker 1: It's very sad. Oh God, Alright, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm

1697
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: used to it. You know, I'll get used to I know, right,

1698
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: It's rough, YEA, A pleasure talking to you. Really, what

1699
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,080
Speaker 1: you're doing is fun. This is really cool. Thanks. Okay,

1700
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 1: but cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

1701
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts on cool zone Media,

1702
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:46,439
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

1703
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1704
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:51,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.