1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio. It's the big take. 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm West Kasova. Today, China struggles with a massive COVID surge. 3 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: As we talked about on the show the other day, 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: that China spy balloon the U S shotdown is about 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: the only China related story making headlines right now, especially 6 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: as news develops that China's balloon surveillance program was more 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: widespread than anyone new and we'll continue to follow that story, 8 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: but as China tries to contain the fallout from that 9 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: incident overseas at the same time as trying to contain 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: another problem at home, a wave of COVID cases that 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: overwhelmed the country. You may remember in December, Chinese citizens 12 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: protested in the streets against the government straight COVID zero lockdowns, 13 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: and soon after President Jijim Pain relaxed the restrictions and 14 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: China has begun to reopen. People are out and about again, 15 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: but is feared. That's also meant a staggering spike in 16 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: COVID cases throughout China. More than a billion people are 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: believed to have been infected, and it's put an enormous 18 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: strain on China's health system, which hasn't been able to 19 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: keep up. My colleagues John Lou in Beijing and Shiad 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: Zubung in Singapore joined me now to talk about how 21 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: China is coping with so many sick people all at once. John, 22 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: let me start with you. The last time you were 23 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: on this program in November, it was that the height 24 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: of the protests against the COVID zero lockdowns, and you 25 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: said three things were likely to happen. The first was 26 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: that the protests would subside, they wouldn't become more widespread. 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: That the Chinese government, which has a history of responding 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: to social unrest, would likely ease the lockdowns, and that 29 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: if that happened, there would be a wildfire of COVID 30 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: cases across the country. And all three of those things 31 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: fairly quickly came true. Can you now just say exactly 32 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: what's happening now in Beijing and other cities now that 33 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: COVID has spread so far so fast. Well, we saw 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: a huge uptick in infections widespread throughout the country, lots 35 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: of disruption. As a result of that, we had a 36 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: big increase in deaths across the country, specifically among the elderly. 37 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: We've seen cases where hospitals have impact with people who 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: are sick looking for care, a shortage of medicines. Unfortunately, 39 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: very very busy at crematoriums and funeral homes across the country. 40 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: That that was sort of the situation we had in 41 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: late December early January, China reported about sixty deaths for 42 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: the month through January twelve. There was almost thirteen deaths 43 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: in a week in early January. Since then, though, towards 44 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: the end of the month end of January, the number 45 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: of affections seems to have peaked. It seems to have plateaued. 46 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: It started to come down, the same with deaths, the 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: same with critical cases, and now the government is trumpeting 48 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: that the worst is over. One of the statistics that 49 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: really kind of made my eyes pop was that an 50 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: official announced that eighty percent of Chinese citizens had been 51 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: infected with COVID. This was right before the lunar New 52 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: Year's celebration. That just seems like an astonishing figure. I mean, 53 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: the wave really took over China at a huge scale. 54 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: We call it a tsunami of COPE cases really just 55 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: swept over China. I think the main reason why the 56 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: COPE virus southern spreading so dramatically across the countries because 57 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: partly because the government hasn't really done anything substantial to 58 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: prepare the public for the crisis. I mean, it didn't 59 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: vaccinate enough people, especially the elderly. It didn't really tell 60 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: people to stock up on on the medicine to do 61 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: sort of cater to to the infections as well. And 62 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: also it really testifies to the fact that omicron is 63 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: just impossible to be keep up, you know, with with 64 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: the traditional lockdown methods, and now that the lockdown has gone, 65 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: it was just impossible to keep the virus at bay. 66 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: One really surprising thing too, are these stories of Chinese 67 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: citizens who have had to go into online chat rooms 68 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: asking people if they had the most basic things I 69 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: view profen COVID testing kits, and they were relying on 70 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: strangers to send them things from their own medicine cabinets. 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: Why did the government not have these just very very 72 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: common things available so was I think part of the 73 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: reason that happened was the change from being a country 74 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: that was determined to snuff out every single case of 75 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: COVID flipping so quickly to one where everything was open. 76 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: You know that they were gonna let COVID just run 77 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: through the popular That change was so quick it caught 78 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: everybody off guard, caught the population off guard, it caught 79 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: doctor's off guard, it caught pharmacies off guard. There was 80 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: a sudden surge in demand for medicines and there just 81 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: wasn't that supply. Do you think that the government, looking 82 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: at this problem of lifting COVID, had to make the 83 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: calculation that there was no real way to contain it, 84 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: and so that they simply were going to have to 85 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: accept a huge surge people across the country getting sick 86 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: in large numbers, many people dying in order to get 87 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: through it. I think that was part of it, Just 88 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: that omicron, especially the latest variants, were so infectious that 89 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: the old playbook of lockdowns and mass test it just 90 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: wasn't as effective. And I think the government sort of 91 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: took a hard look, and if you there were protests, 92 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: people were getting sick, people were upset by the lockdowns, 93 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: that ultimately the calculation cost benefit was that it was 94 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: better to open up, because I think the worst thing 95 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: that could have happened was to continue the lockdowns but 96 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: still for thousands, millions of people to get sick and 97 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: then still to have people die and so to have 98 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: the worst of both worlds, and I think that was 99 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: what finally pushed, you know, the decision making to open up. 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: It's about John mentioned earlier that it looks like the 101 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: number of deaths is actually coming down, that the illness 102 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: has spread so quickly through the country that the people 103 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: who are going to get sick largely have. But there's 104 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: been a lot of questions about how accurate the reporting 105 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: of the number of deaths has been because of the 106 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: way the government records deaths. Can you explain a little 107 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: bit about that, Yes, So the government has been very 108 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: careful in terms of counting COVID deaths. Definition is pretty narrow, 109 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: limiting it to you know, those dies of COVID only. 110 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: And and at the same time, when releasing our death 111 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: related data, the government has also specified that it is 112 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: only referring to deaths that occurred at the hospital. So 113 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: so a death that happened in someone's household would then 114 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: be necessarily counted into the totally because the goble wouldn't 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: have a way to do, you know, to see into 116 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: the data. That that is sort of the government acknowledging 117 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's data is is not that 118 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: complete when it comes to this solid picture, which is 119 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: why we need to rely at times on social media 120 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: for reports on infections and deaths as well. And and 121 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: I think from our observations on social media, it does 122 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: seem like the way that's sort of you know, taped off, 123 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: and deaths is not are not occurring as often as 124 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: as during the initial WAF John did we see higher 125 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: death rates in China, especially in areas where there were 126 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: fewer vaccines available than we did in other parts of 127 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: the world. So I think this is partly the data 128 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: to blame. We just don't have the amount of clarity 129 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: to be able to definitively say whether or not the 130 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: rate of deaths was higher or lower. Trying to show 131 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: some transparency after pressure from the World Health Organization, the 132 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: US and others, but because of the way they have 133 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: handled starter up till now, there's definitely always a question mark, 134 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: particularly around these claims that so much of the population 135 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: an official saying at the weekend of the population has 136 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: been affected. I've I'm very skeptical of these numbers. Zibung 137 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: to make up for shortages of healthcare and medicine, especially 138 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: in rural areas of China. There's a citizens movement that 139 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: sprung up called the Campaign to Breathe in Down Fever 140 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: in Villages. What is that right? Um? So the campaign 141 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, the Campaign to bring down Fever in 142 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: Villages is actually a grassroots action started by China Civil 143 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: Society really to sort of you know, coordinates medical supplies 144 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: and couple ship them to the countryside where these sort 145 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: of supplies a more acute and so so there are 146 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: really two things that they are going on here. Wonder 147 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: is that you know, some villagers are also being affected 148 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: in the first wave and the government didn't really step 149 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: in at the point in time. It really just took 150 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: a backseat on the whole situation. And that's led to 151 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: a lot of these grassroots initiatives to cut stepping and 152 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: have like take charge and coordinates supplies and to ship 153 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: them to the people in need. And then when when 154 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: when this first waves tapered off and we are you know, 155 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: in the running up to the lunar New Year, that's 156 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: when the government find the kids that is stuff and 157 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: say that okay, you know what with all of these 158 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: travelers going back home, they are bound to bring virus 159 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: home with them as well. And that's when the government 160 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: really started to pay more attention to the country side 161 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: and launching more sort of top down matches to ramp 162 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: up the health care face capacities in these villages. And 163 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: that's where we see that the government has some you know, 164 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: given villages oximeters and the anti paractics and stuff. John 165 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: In these widespread protests at the end of last year, 166 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: people were angry. They wanted an immediate end to COVID 167 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: zero lockdowns, and they got them. Of course, we've been 168 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: talking all about the downside of opening up so quickly 169 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: without preparation. How have people responded to this? You know, 170 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: the government did what they asked, and now there are 171 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: the consequences had people been patient accepting of what happened here. 172 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think China's a lot like you know, 173 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: the U S and many other parts of the world 174 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: where the public opinion is quite a split on the issue. 175 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: There are there are lots of people working, age people, 176 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: people who have businesses who are really happy that the 177 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: economy has reopened. We've just had the Lunar New Year Festival, 178 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: which is the most important holiday in China, and many 179 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: people were able to go home to see family for 180 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: the first time in many years because there are no 181 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: longer these restrictions on travel internally. But at the same time, 182 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: we talked about the larger number of deaths that we've 183 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: seen across the country. That's obviously impact of families all over. 184 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: And we have actually seen some criticism online, people saying, 185 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, people who didn't want to open up or 186 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: were against opening up, saying blaming these debts on those 187 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: who protested, saying, look look what that's gotten us. And 188 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: so there is this balance between you know, pro and 189 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: con people who opposed and people who supported the reopening. 190 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: But I think looking forward, if you listen to the 191 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: government spin on the way on what's happening, you will 192 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: see that there is much more of an emphasis on 193 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: the economy, rebounding growth, returning people getting back to work, 194 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: job prospects for the for the young, the newly graduated, 195 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: and I think that will be the emphasis going forward. 196 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: John Subunk, please stay with me. Our conversation continues after 197 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: the break. We just a couple of days ago on 198 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: this show talked about how China's economic reopening is going 199 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: to give a big boost to the world economy and 200 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: also possibly increase inflation because of increased demand from China. 201 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: What are the sort of pains associated with reopening very 202 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: quickly after three years amid a wave of COVID. Saw 203 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: the initial stage of the recovery was that, you know, 204 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: the economy really to cough, you know, affect three operations 205 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: were being disrupted by all of these cofee cases as well. 206 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 1: But now that's you know, hopefully the first wave is 207 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: well behind us, and and and China kind of like 208 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: kickstart to all of these progrowth policies once again, including 209 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: a surprise easing on the crackdowns on tech firms and 210 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: property sector. That could point us to a stronger rebounding 211 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: the coming months, although that again is subjected to you know, 212 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: where the COVID will kind of like spring up again 213 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: and disrupting all of these operations. If you walk through say, 214 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: cities in Western Europe or the United States, when people 215 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of emerged from the darkest days of COVID, you 216 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: saw so many shops, so many restaurants had not made 217 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: it through and they were closed permanently. Are we seeing 218 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: a similar thing in China cities that people are coming 219 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: out after three years and looking around and so many 220 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: businesses that they once went to are no longer they. 221 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I mean, definitely some shops have folded after this you know, 222 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: on and off sort of lockdown situation that China was 223 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: doing in the past three years. But on the other hand, 224 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: is important to note that Chinese COVI zero wasn't like 225 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: a consistent soft lockdown mode being imposed on the whole country. 226 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: It was really, you know, depends on the COVID situation 227 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: in the particular city, in the particular districts. Even in 228 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: some cases otherwise when there's no copy cases, people are 229 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: really living just as normal and sometimes they don't even 230 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: need to wear a mask in ourdoors. And businesses were 231 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: allowed to operate. But it's really that sort of on 232 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: and off lockdown with the events of Omicron that makes 233 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: the whole business operations unsustainable. John is the sort of 234 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: I guess social contract between the Chinese people in the 235 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: government that they accept one party rule a lot of 236 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: restrictions in exchange for companty in government, good public services, protection, 237 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: public safety. Has that been shattered a bit, our people 238 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: expressing kind of discontent in a way that maybe they 239 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: didn't before. I think it has definitely been stressed by 240 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: the situation. It's been put under greater stress that compact, 241 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: the social compact, but I think it was under a 242 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: lot of stress during the lockdowns. I mean, we saw 243 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: the protests, We saw the impact on the economy, We 244 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: saw the high rates of youth unemployment that that hadn't 245 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: existed in decades in China, and that I think ultimately 246 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: would have produced more stress on that that compact between 247 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: the government and society than what what we're going through 248 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: right now, which is obviously the deaths, the critical illnesses 249 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: are have had a huge impact on families across the country. 250 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: But we do seem to be over the peak of that. 251 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: The economy is coming back, and so I think over 252 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: the next months, over the next year, the government is 253 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: going to be able to spend the story, you know, 254 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: to say, look, what we did was the best thing, 255 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: and ultimately we came out through the other side into 256 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: a better place. And John before COVID President Ji Jimping, 257 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: who had solidified his power and was making very sweeping 258 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: changes in Chinese society, had really started to crack down 259 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: on forms of protest, descent free expression then had happened before. 260 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: Our people now finding that they're able to criticize a 261 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: little bit more as a government's sort of like, you know, 262 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: allowing a little bit more room to dissent just to 263 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: avoid pressure building up. I think the government is quite 264 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: sophisticated and how it manages sort of social what people 265 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: were talking about, the general discussion around the country. And 266 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: so for example, when we had so many people upset 267 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: about the lockdowns, there was it seemed an allowance, a 268 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: greater allowance for people to criticize that, to voice their 269 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: upset nous. Since then, that has again tightened very noticeably. 270 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: We we've had reports of many of the those who 271 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: participate in the protests, people who helped sort of drum 272 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: up attention for the protests, being detained by the police. 273 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: So I don't think there is in the greater sense, 274 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: any relaxation of how tightly controlled public opinion is in China. 275 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: That being said, I think the government is really sensitive 276 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: to to making changes sort of course correction when it 277 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: has to to make sure that people are not you know, 278 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: are not being pushed to an extreme when it comes 279 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: to what they think about the government, what they think 280 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: about policy, what they're undergoing in their lives, and so 281 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, in in that respect, I don't think much 282 00:17:54,720 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: has changed really We'll be right back. M h. It's aboon. 283 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: One way it's possible to get a feel for public 284 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: sentiment in China is from the conversations that are happening 285 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: on social platforms. Are there any trends in what people 286 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: are talking about now with all the tunnel in the 287 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: country that stand out to you? So? Um, what we've 288 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: been seeing is that some people are really just sort 289 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: of pushing the blame on the protesters or in general 290 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: logic generally the people have called for a relaxation of 291 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: coffee matches, and I've actually chanced upon this wayboard topics 292 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: of way boards China's equivalence of Twitter, So I've actually 293 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: chanced upon this wayboard discussion consisting a bunch of people 294 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: sort of asking for a return of COVID zero or 295 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: at least some degree of lockdowns because they were seeing that, 296 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: you know, the wave was just too two two huge, 297 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: and the tow was just too great for for them 298 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: to to be able to understand. And I think that 299 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: really speaks to the whip lash that just take COVID 300 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: zero UTN has created on the Chinese society, you know, 301 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: because they were unable to sort of understand why the 302 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: government has taken such a dramatic change all of a sudden, 303 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: and that's why they was they just couldn't fathom in 304 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: that they were, you know, covlet putting the blame on 305 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: any other parties, that they thoughts they were responsible, and 306 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: that in this case, how the protesters can I just 307 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: add to what the Bones saying in the sense that 308 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: because the government censors social media posts that are critical 309 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: of government policy, posts that blame the government for the 310 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: increase in death, because those posts tend to get censored away, 311 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: what you have left instead is this discussion of, well, 312 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: it's the protesters who are to blame for the fact 313 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: that so many people have died, and so either by 314 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: by coincidence or by purpose, that tends to be the 315 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: discussion that is more pronounced than China, the one that 316 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: we see more often. It's about one thing that I 317 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: think you spoke to Frederica about before the interview, when 318 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: the two of you were talking, was about just misinformation 319 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: in general, people online looking at using yoga or alternative 320 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: medicine to cure COVID, and how those discussions are going 321 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: about how that's different from Western disinformation. The idea that 322 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: you know COVID doesn't even exist. Yeah, I mean that 323 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: really boils down to how the government has vilified COVID 324 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: nine team. For the past three years. You know, the 325 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: government has been telling its people that COVID nighteing is 326 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: a very serious disease because a lot of symptoms in 327 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: the people, and and and sometimes long COVID is there 328 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: to stay as well. And so when when the government 329 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: just suddenly opens up, we fought, you know, sort of 330 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: educating the public about about about the variance. Really that 331 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: has driven some people to sort of treats the virus 332 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: as a very serious thing to look after. And and 333 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: at the same time, there's also this erosion of trust 334 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: in the government, you know, um or at least in 335 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: the government's backs sort of medical experts. They don't really 336 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: trust that the experts were speaking out of science. They 337 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: think that the experts were just being directed by the 338 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: government to however line that the government was was looking 339 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: at at the point in time. So so now they 340 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: think that, you know, the experts words are not to 341 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: be trusted. And that's also driven them to this sort 342 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: of alternative information. And and we are seeing that the 343 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: people's Dady that is the mouthpiece of the Communist Party 344 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: has to come out and clarified to the people that 345 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: eat encant pictures doesn't really help you with COVID niting symptoms. John, 346 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: when you look down the road three months, six months, 347 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: even a year from now, how do you see this 348 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: plane out? Where do you think China is with COVID 349 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: in the future. I think in six months time, it 350 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: could very well be that COVID just seems like it 351 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: never happened, It didn't exist. People. Maybe people privately amongst 352 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: themselves will talk about it, but you know, in official 353 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: media and mass media more broadly there there might just 354 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: be no mention of it. That the government will want 355 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: to very much move forward. And you know, I do 356 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: think that the economy should be much better down the road. Obviously, 357 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: partly that will be because last year was so terrible 358 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: that will just make this year look much much better 359 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: and that will add to that argument. So I think 360 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: in six months and a year from now, you know, 361 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: it will have seemed like thousands of years ago that 362 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: this happened. John Deebung, thanks so much for being here. 363 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: Thank you West, Thank you. You can read more from 364 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: Shia Zebung and on lou at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks 365 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's 366 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For 367 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: more shows from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart 368 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen, and we'd 369 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments 370 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer 371 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: of The Big Take is Vicky Burgolina, Our senior producer 372 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: is Katherine Fink, Our producer is Federica Roman Yellow, and 373 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: our associate producer is n Obsidi Ki Hill. The Garcia 374 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: is our engineer and our original music was composed by 375 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: Leo Sidrin. I'm Westcasova. Have a great weekend.