1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: episode is going to be a longer one part of 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: take their days from great to awesome and any advice 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: they might have for. 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: The rest of us. So today I am excited. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: To welcome Chris Gilibo to the show. Chris is the 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: author of a brand new book called Time Anxiety. You 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: might also know him from Side Hustle School or the 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: Art of non Conformity. 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: So Chris, welcome to the show. 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Laura. I's a huge honor to 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: be here. I'm a big fan of you, as you know, 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 3: reading your blog for many years. So this is very exciting. 16 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: I'm excited to have you. So why don't you tell 17 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: our listeners a little bit about yourself? 18 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 3: Sure, a little about myself? Well, I was born at 19 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 3: a young age. It's always like a dangerous question, right, 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 3: So like what is pertinent? 21 00:00:58,440 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: You know? 22 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 3: In my early twenties, I spent a few years as 23 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 3: an aid worker in West Africa. That was like a 24 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: very transformative time for me. Led to me traveling to 25 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 3: a bunch of other places and just getting interested in 26 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 3: like cross cultural things. I'd always kind of worked for myself. 27 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 3: I was like this classic unemployable, you know, archetype, Like 28 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 3: I really like to work on things I'm excited about. 29 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 3: It's very adhd. But if I'm not excited about it, 30 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 3: then I don't want to work on it at all. 31 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 3: So you have to kind of work for yourself. So 32 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 3: did lots of little entrepreneurial projects. Had a project of 33 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: going to every country in the world which I started 34 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight and wrote a blog about 35 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: it called The Art of Nonconformity. That's kind of how 36 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,639 Speaker 3: I started writing and sharing online. Been doing some version 37 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 3: of that ever since. Started writing books, started this podcast 38 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 3: that I've been doing every day for twenty eight hundred 39 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: days now. And I hosted an event called the World 40 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: Domination Summit, which you were a keynote speaker at an 41 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: opening keynote speaker one year, which was really fun. And 42 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: I have a really wonderful community. So a little bit 43 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: more about neurodivergence and mental health and you know, related 44 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: topics these days. But I try to work on things 45 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: i'm excited about. 46 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you actually made it to all of the 47 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: countries I get, yes, including the ones that we are 48 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: not supposed to go to anymore. 49 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: I think, yes, that's right. Yeah, it was actually easier 50 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 3: a few years ago than it is now. People are 51 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: still doing this quest, but I think it was a 52 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: little bit easier. Yeah, back in the early. 53 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: Early two thousands before there are fewer restrictions. Yeah, it 54 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: is an amazing thing to contemplate doing. But I want 55 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about what time anxiety is. 56 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: So what is this concept of time anxiety? 57 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 3: I'm curious. I mean not to derail, because I'll answer directly. 58 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: But when I first do it, started doing like the 59 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 3: research for this book, I had this phrase, and I 60 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 3: started just asking people about it. I'd be curious what 61 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: the concept time anxiety means to you, Laura, without even 62 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 3: any context of the book and such. But I started 63 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 3: just checking with people, and like, people are like, what 64 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: are you working on? It's like, I'm exploring this concept 65 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: and I come to it honest, I don't come to 66 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: it as like an academic or a researcher. Like I 67 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: actually felt like my life was kind of governed by 68 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: this sense of like I feel like I'm running out 69 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 3: of time. There's not enough time to do what I want. 70 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 3: And I mean, you've written about this extensively, you know, 71 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 3: from your own perspective and such, And how do I 72 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: decide what to do next in the face of so 73 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: many options and such? So I started asking people, or 74 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: I started telling them, I'm working on this concept called 75 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: time anxiety, and almost everyone would have a really strong 76 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: opinion about it. They would have an experience with it. 77 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: They would say, I have this thing. I talk about 78 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: this with my friends all the time, but we didn't 79 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: have a name for it, you know, like I feel 80 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: like this is like the greatest problem of my life. 81 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: You know, some people would even say so. For me, 82 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: I think it's you know, there are two types of it. 83 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 3: It's one is this existential type of time is running 84 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: out in my life right and or maybe there's something 85 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: I should be doing but I don't quite know what 86 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 3: it is, and I have this sense or maybe I 87 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: have some regret over things I done or not done 88 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: in the past and feel like I can't change that now. 89 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: And then the second type is just the day to 90 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 3: day routine of how do I, you know, kind of 91 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 3: triage and sequence my work and my life and my 92 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: relationships and my hobbies and all the you know, how 93 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: do I make these choices? In this world of knowledge work, 94 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: even if you have like a somewhat defined job, you know, 95 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: for a lot of people doing knowledge work, there's like 96 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 3: an infinite array of you know, the task that you 97 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 3: work on and how you you know, approach and schedule them, 98 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 3: and so it can be really overwhelming. And so that's 99 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 3: the second part. 100 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: I think you had talked a little bit about it 101 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: being like the sense that you're always behind in some 102 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: way or another. 103 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, always behind and not sure how to course 104 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: correct or you know, like if you ask people like 105 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: what they really want, A lot of people say, I 106 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: want to catch up, you know, I want like if 107 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: I had an extra day, you know, how would I 108 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: spend How would you spend it? And you expect that 109 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 3: they would say like, I, you know, would have like 110 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 3: a vacation, or but it's I would catch up on 111 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: my email. That's my greatest aspiration is I would catch up. 112 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: And I kind of felt like this way myself for 113 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 3: a long time, and so I felt like it was 114 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: really troubling and like what do we what do we 115 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: do about it? 116 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: But Yeah, it's curious. 117 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: I mean the idea of catching up or being behind 118 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: implies that there's some objective standard of where everyone is 119 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: supposed to be, which I guess I've never figured out 120 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: where that standard was kept or. 121 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: Who decided that. 122 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: So well, we're all suffering from our time anxiety. In 123 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: the book, I wanted to talk you know, you have 124 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: a lot of different tips and hacks of things to try, 125 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: which I loved about The book is very practical, But 126 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: I want to talk about one speecific issue. You mentioned 127 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: time blindness, So now what is time blindness and how 128 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: can people address this? 129 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 3: So it's kind of a neurodivergent e concept, So for 130 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: anybody with ADHD or autism, or anybody who identifies with 131 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 3: any conditions like that, but not exclusively, A lot of 132 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 3: people can have time blindness, which is basically like where 133 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: we kind of chronically misestimate, underestimate, or overestimate how much 134 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 3: time something takes, and this leads to us kind of 135 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 3: always feeling rushed, like always feeling rushed, always being behind. 136 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: So if you're the kind of person who's always late, 137 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 3: you probably don't like that about yourself. You know, it's 138 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: not like, oh, this is just but your friends have 139 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: kind of like gotten used to it, like so and 140 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: so is always late to things, but it's in this 141 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: case it's probably because you are not estimating, you know, 142 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: the amount of time that's required for transitions and such. 143 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: And people will also go the other way and like 144 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 3: overestimate time too. But a really simple thing to do, 145 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: and this is not like mind blowing, but it can 146 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: actually change your life, is simply to allow like ten 147 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: or fifteen more minutes than you think you need, you know, 148 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: for transitions. And it's going to be the coolest thing 149 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 3: because now you are like five minutes early to things. 150 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is when I've shared that with people, 151 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: some people really are worried about, like what will I 152 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 3: do with the five extra minutes? You know, and like 153 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 3: this is not a problem. This is a good thing. 154 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: To take a book with you, right, or do something, 155 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: you know, like it's a thing to have extra padding, 156 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: like to have buffer and margin in your life. Is 157 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: actually it provides relief, I think, And I think what 158 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: a lot of people are looking for more than organization, 159 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: And again I'd be curious what you think about it, 160 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: but like more than organization or hyper optimization, what they're 161 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: looking for is relief, a sense of like, help me 162 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: feel better? 163 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 164 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: Well, and the thing is, honestly, people who are chronically late, 165 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: adding in ten to fifteen minutes is not going to 166 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: make them early. 167 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: They will probably be there right on time. 168 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: So you know, it's really one of those funny things. 169 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: And yeah, people always like but what I could have 170 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: emptied the dishwasher before I left. But we just need 171 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: to nip that thought right there. Well, we're going to 172 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: take a quick ad break and then I will be 173 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: back with more from Chris Guillibo. Well, I am back 174 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: with Chris Gilbo, who's the author of the brand new 175 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: book Time Anxiety. We've been talking about time blindness. If 176 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: you find yourself always late, how you can just add 177 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen minutes and you will probably be on time. 178 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: You may find yourself early, but that would be a 179 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: happy thing that you could celebrate if that happens. So 180 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: you mentioned people feeling like they would spend their extra 181 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: time getting caught up on email. I know from the 182 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: book Time Anxiety that you find email particularly stressful. In 183 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: case anyone listening to this also suffers from that anxiety, 184 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: I wonder if there's anything you've done to help yourself there. 185 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this kind of ruled my life in 186 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: a negative way for many years, and I felt really 187 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: bad about it. Like I was very bad about getting 188 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: back to people and getting back to people that I 189 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: cared about. You know, you probably wrote me at some 190 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: point and I wrote you back three months later, and 191 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: I would begin almost every email with the same sentence, 192 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 3: which is like, I'm so sorry for the delay in reply, right, 193 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 3: you know. And so I have this whole chapter about 194 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: the inbox of shame, and I honestly felt like I'm 195 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: just always letting people down. And it wasn't just a 196 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: matter of like, oh, I need to schedule twenty minutes 197 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 3: into my I need to Like sometimes I would have time, 198 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 3: and I would have this great resistance to like there's 199 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 3: this block over there's something I'm dreading and I can't 200 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: force myself to do it. I think this is also 201 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 3: like a NERD divergent kind of thing and understanding that 202 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 3: sometimes really small things can can be difficult, you know, 203 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: to do. And so I think there's a process of it. 204 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 3: Like I wrote a little bit about radical acceptance, some 205 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: of it is you just accept like there are some 206 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 3: things that you that you are going to be better 207 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: at than others. You can try to and you write 208 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 3: about this, like minimizing some of your communication and closing 209 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 3: off some inboxes so that you don't have, you know, 210 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: the ability to get a direct message on every single 211 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: platform and such. Ultimately, I think you just you do 212 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: what you can. Like you try to do what you can. 213 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: You try to prioritize, prioritize like the important relationships and 214 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: not worry as much about everything else. I also do 215 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: things like the you know, inbox bankruptcy, you know where 216 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: I'm just like, Okay, I've had all these messages there 217 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 3: forever and I'm not doing anything about it. This is 218 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: probably going to stress you out right, you would never 219 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: do this, but some of your listeners are probably more 220 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 3: like me, and they've just had all these things there 221 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 3: for so long. And so the the whole point is 222 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: if you just like you know, archive or delete and 223 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: move on, then yes, you may feel a little bit 224 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 3: bad about some of that stuff, but you've been feeling 225 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 3: bad about it and not doing anything about it, and 226 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: now you're going to do a better job moving forward 227 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: with things. So that helps me from time to time. 228 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, honestly, I mean, I don't respond to everything 229 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: instantly or anything like that, but I do. I do 230 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: an email triage is what I call it, every like 231 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: two to three days and trying to get myself to current, 232 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: and sometimes that involves deciding that I'm not going to 233 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: respond to something which you know, you have your Friday list, 234 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: you know, which I know the world has not stopped 235 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: spinning yet, so it seems to be okay at this point. 236 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: So, Chris, what is a reverse bucket list? I love 237 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: this idea of a reverse bucket list. 238 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 3: A reverse bucket list is about celebrating what you've actually 239 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: already done, what you've already accomplished. So obviously listeners know 240 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: that the bucket list is like, oh, here's all the 241 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 3: things that I want to do. I want to go 242 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 3: to Paris, and I want to go bungee jumping, and 243 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: you know, et cetera, et cetera, And I'm very future minded. 244 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: I tend to be very goal oriented. But always being 245 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: future minded means sometimes that I don't appreciate the present 246 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: or actually reflect on, Oh, I've been able to do 247 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 3: some cool things. I have been to Paris. I don't 248 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 3: actually care about bungee jumping, so the reverse bucket list 249 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: is like, this is a list of things I have done, 250 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: you know, and it can be any It can be 251 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 3: bucket list like items, it can be accomplishments of any kind. 252 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,599 Speaker 3: It can be relationships that you are proud of, or 253 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 3: times that you've made good choices in relationships, times that 254 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 3: you've showed up for yourself. I mean, it's your list, right, 255 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: So it's good. It's a way of like, look, I 256 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: actually have done, you know, a lot, and so I 257 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: think so there's the big picture bucket list reverse bucket 258 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: list kind of thing. But I also think even at 259 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 3: the end of the day, just a short little because 260 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: we have a to do list, you know, we always 261 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: have like our running stuff that we got to do 262 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: and then we check it off and it's gone. I 263 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: think it can also be helpful, like at the end 264 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: of the day, for example, or a week, to be like, 265 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: what are three things I actually did today, not just 266 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: the three things I need to do going forward, because 267 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: I tend to not I tend to just finish stuff 268 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: and move on. Finish stuff and move on. And I 269 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 3: think it's really helpful to decide, like what's enough, and 270 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 3: then I can celebrate that. 271 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm a big fan of daily celebrations. We 272 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: should have more celebrations in general. I mean, I've added 273 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: stuff to my to do list that I've done just 274 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: to cross it off, so you know, I like giving 275 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 2: that little gold star. 276 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that when you ask. 277 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: People what they do with an extra day of the week, 278 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: many people suggest that they'd get caught up on their email. 279 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: But you suggest that people actually do an exercise of 280 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 2: thinking what they would do on an extra day of 281 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: the week. And I presume you don't want them to 282 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: do email, So maybe talk a little bit about that 283 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: exercise and what. 284 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to take. I had to take catching 285 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: up off the list of options. So the idea is 286 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: instead of thinking about your one single, ideal perfect day, 287 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 3: which is kind of another thought exercise, and that can 288 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: be helpful, but it also is like pressure inducing, like 289 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 3: it's like a one day, it's got to be perfect. 290 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: You know, what if you had an extra day every week, 291 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 3: and so it's the eighth day of the week, you 292 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: got seven days a week, but now there's an extra 293 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 3: day and on this day, not only can you not 294 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: use it to catch up, you know, presumably you have 295 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: other responsibilities and obligations and such on the other days, 296 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: but on this day, nobody is asking you for anything, right, 297 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: So it's your day. And the key point is it repeats, 298 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: so you know, you get fifty two of them a year. 299 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: So what would you do on that day? And if 300 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: you think of it in that context, I think it's 301 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 3: more helpful than just thinking about like what do I 302 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: want to do with my life or what's that single day? 303 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 3: Because sequentially you can do a lot, right, and Lauria 304 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: you're the model of this, right, with like war and 305 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: peace and the bak and everything else that you do. 306 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: So it's like, you know, people can write a book 307 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: in a year, you know, using this framework, they can 308 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: learn a language, they can learn something else, they can 309 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 3: practice something. So I think it just kind of helps 310 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: you get in tune with what you really want. And 311 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people don't think very deeply 312 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 3: about that what is it that I really want to 313 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: get out of life? And what is it that I 314 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 3: want now? And what do I want in the future? 315 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: And how how can I be kind to my future self? 316 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: What are the choices I need to make now so 317 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 3: that my future stuff will be able to you know, 318 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: whatever that thing is, and maybe just to give it 319 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: make it even more simple. Just a really practical thing 320 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: is like as you were going through the day, like 321 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: maybe you're doing the trademark Laura VANDERCAM time tracking system, 322 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 3: which I love and respect and have talked about many times. 323 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 3: But you can also just intuitively, maybe just notice and 324 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: ask yourself, like what do I want more of and 325 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 3: what do I want less of? And I think when 326 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: people do that, they tend to just like moving forward, 327 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 3: kind of interact differently with the world once you know, 328 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 3: oh I want more of this or I want less 329 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: of this. I don't actually want to talk to this 330 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: person all the time. Maybe I have to talk to 331 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: them some of the time, but you know, I want 332 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 3: to lessen those interactions. And I'm actually I'm really enjoying, 333 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: you know, these puzzles that I'm working over something else, 334 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: and like, be cool if I spend more time. 335 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: Doing that, Yeah, yeah, on the eighth day of the week, 336 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 2: we would not be talking to that person that well. 337 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: I think the idea is most people don't. 338 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: We don't really think about what we'd like to spend 339 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: a lot more time doing because people assume they have 340 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: no time. 341 00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: So what would be the point of asking what you 342 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: want to do more time? 343 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: But if you think about it, then hopefully we can 344 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: start to build that into the one hundred and sixty 345 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: eight hours we have in the week without actually getting 346 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety two hour week. 347 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: Great, right, right, right, very good? Yeah, exactly. I think 348 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: you can do it strategically or you do it intuitively, 349 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: and like both both ways are going to help. Ultimately 350 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: you're going to be better off. 351 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: Excellent. 352 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: Well, We're going to take one more quick ad break 353 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: and I will be back with Chris. Well. I am 354 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: back interviewing Chris Gilibo, who's the author of the brand 355 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: new book Time Anxiety. He's also the author of the 356 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: book The Art of Nonconformity. Been telling us all about 357 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: his amazing projects, like visiting all of the countries in 358 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 2: the world back in the day. So, Chris, among the 359 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: happy tips in your book is to think about death 360 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: once a day. 361 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. Is that great? 362 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: Why should we have this memento Maury every day? 363 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: What's in that for us? 364 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 3: It's so interesting. I was talking with Ryan Holiday about 365 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: this recently because he has a similar take. I think 366 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: not everybody has the same awareness of mortality. Everyone has 367 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 3: an intellectual awareness of mortality, which is like everyone dies, 368 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 3: we know this, but to have a more personal awareness 369 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 3: is like someday I will die. And when I was 370 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: doing the country quest, I wrote a book about other 371 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: people doing quests of all kinds and such, and one 372 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 3: of the commonalities I found among them is that they 373 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: often had this more personal awareness of mortality. Maybe they 374 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: had had something that happened to them a close call 375 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 3: of their own, or they had lost someone close to them, 376 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: or maybe not, but they had this more personal understanding 377 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,359 Speaker 3: of it, and it instead of being like pressure inducing 378 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: or a sad and scary thing, well maybe it is 379 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: a sad and scary thing, but it could also be 380 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: like a purpose inducing thing. And it kind of makes 381 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: you think, well, okay, life is short. We know that, 382 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 3: you know intellectually, but if I what does it look 383 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: like to like live each day with that understanding? And 384 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: maybe I will make different choices if I just remember, okay, 385 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: I won't get this this day back. Time is precious, right, 386 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: You're right about this a lot. So you know, for me, 387 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: like thinking about death is it's not meant to be 388 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: like overly negative thing. It's meant to be like I 389 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 3: want to do more. You know, I don't actually want 390 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: to be a minimalist. I don't want to like less 391 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 3: is not the answer, you know, I want there's some 392 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: things I want to do less of, but actually, like, 393 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 3: I love my life and I want to do more 394 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: stuff that's exciting, and I want to set goals and 395 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: I want to get closer to people that I care 396 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 3: about and like try to have as much impact as possible. 397 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: And you know, part of the reason that I want 398 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: that and other people you know want that, is because 399 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 3: we realize like that time is limited. Right, What is 400 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: it that you say? You know, what was the classic 401 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: phrase that we borrowed? You know, I think at WS 402 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 3: one year you know it better than me. It's the 403 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: Laura of Andercam phrase. 404 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. 405 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 3: Yes, I don't have time. 406 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: It's not a priority, no, No, it's about the expectations 407 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: are infinite. 408 00:17:58,800 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: Time is finite. 409 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: You are always choosing, well, right there, you go choose, well, 410 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: all right, we're going to choose. Well, well, one of 411 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: the things you want is to choose. Chris, though, making 412 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: this a little lighter now is a granny hobby. So 413 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 2: why are we choosing a granny hobby? 414 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: And what is yours. 415 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 3: Sure, Oh yeah, wow, I wasn't prepared for the second part. 416 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: Other people. 417 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: So a granny hobby, and some people might prefer the 418 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: term cozy hobby, but granny hobby is not meant to 419 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: be disrespectful in any way. Granny hobby thinking of something 420 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 3: like like crafting or knitting or crochet or baking or gardening. 421 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: You know, we think about like some of the things 422 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: that our grandmothers or grandfathers you know, might traditionally do, 423 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: and like I grew up like gardening with my grandma, 424 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: and it was like this really special time. So there's 425 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: actually a lot of research. It's not just like, oh, 426 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: this is a fun thing to do. There's a lot 427 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 3: of research that a tactile doing that is tactile and 428 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 3: sensory and low stakes can actually like increase our cognitive 429 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 3: you know, attention, our focus, as well as reducing our anxiety. 430 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: So the low stakes is key, right. It's like it's 431 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 3: relatively easy to learn to do the basics of a 432 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 3: lot of these kinds of crafts and then you can 433 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 3: get better of them over time. But it's not that hard, 434 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: and if you mess up, it's okay, right, if you 435 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: if you if the cake gets burned in the oven, 436 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: then you can make another cake the next day. You 437 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: haven't like sent the email, you know, like c see 438 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 3: the entire office on the wrong email or something right, 439 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: So low stakes, it's tactile, it reduces anxiety, and it's 440 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 3: also like I think the person that I borrowed this 441 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 3: idea from Anu mentioned her in the book. She also 442 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: calls it like hands on thumbs down, so your technically 443 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 3: you're still using your thumb, but you're not scrolling on 444 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 3: a device, so it's a device free. So I actually 445 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: don't know if I have at the moment a good 446 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: granny or cozy hobby. Yeah. I like some board games, 447 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: but I'm not actively like playing them right now, So 448 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: maybe I need to work on that after the book 449 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 3: launch and tour. Find my my granny hobby a challenge 450 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 3: exactly exactly? 451 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: Well, are there any particularly mentioned? 452 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: I mean, among the many things you do, you know, 453 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: your daily podcast for twenty eight hundred days. 454 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean that's a that's a pretty long time. 455 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: I'm curious about your daily routines, if there are any 456 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: routines you have that you feel make you more productive. 457 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 3: I love this thing about how we all have like 458 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: two to three hours a day of like you know, 459 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: productive energy of like this cognitive focus. And the more 460 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: and more I have thought about it, the more I 461 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 3: understand how true it is for me. And I've tried 462 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 3: to be really protective of that time. I think that's 463 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 3: the biggest thing I do. I do exercise every day, 464 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 3: run every morning, and so I like to have that 465 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: and then I like to not schedule myself a lot 466 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: in the morning. Typically, I like to have that time 467 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: just for creative work that I can structure however I 468 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 3: see fit. I do like these repetitive kinds of projects. 469 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: I find a lot of like comfort in making the 470 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: podcast every day. It is you'll understand this perfectly. It 471 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: is easier for me to make it every day than 472 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 3: it would be to it three days a week, you know, 473 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 3: And that's something that not everybody understands. They're just seven 474 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 3: days a week for like seven years. I'm like, no, no, 475 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 3: that's the secret. It would have been harder, you know 476 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: if it was weekly. So I tend to like a 477 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: lot of those kinds of like building blocks, milestones of things. 478 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 3: And so I think the trick is to make sure 479 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: you're doing the right things, because I also want to say. 480 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 3: I try to be very like candid in the book, 481 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: like it sounds like I have all this expertise and 482 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: I've done all this stuff, but I actually really had 483 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: like a mental breakdown and really really struggled and felt 484 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 3: like I was getting I was so into the productivity 485 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: like industrial complex that I was getting good at doing 486 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: the wrong things, Like I was getting really really efficient 487 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 3: at being ineffective. And so I think it's you know, 488 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: I think it's just important to mention that that it 489 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: was a little bit of a journey that I've been on. 490 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well we've all been on our journeys. And I 491 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: guess one last thing about a journey here, Chris. I mean, 492 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 2: normally I ask people that I interview what they've done 493 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: recently to take a day from great to awesome. But 494 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: I'm not going to let you choose, because I want 495 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: you to talk about the time you walked twenty miles 496 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: to dinner. 497 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: Okay, this was so funny and I'd never done this before. Yeah, 498 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: I just had this idea maybe three or four days 499 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 3: in advance, so it wasn't like completely spontaneous, but it 500 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: wasn't super planned. There was a restaurant twenty miles from 501 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: me in San Diego, and I was like, I should 502 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: I should walk there, And I was like, how okay, 503 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: was there a good route for that? And how much 504 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: time would that? I mean, I do run every day, 505 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: so I'm somewhat used to, you know, those kinds of things. 506 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 3: I've done marathons, but I maybe actually walked like for 507 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 3: hours and hours and hours, and so I just I 508 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: just had this idea and it wouldn't leave me alone. 509 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 3: And I thought, well, it could be like a really 510 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 3: dumb thing, but it's also low stakes again, like if 511 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: I don't like it, okay, And so I did that. 512 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: I left it around lunchtime, and I got to the 513 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 3: restaurant at like right after seven pm. I made a 514 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,479 Speaker 3: seven pm reservation. I showed up like right after ten 515 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 3: minutes after, and it was so much fun there. I 516 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: ordered this like large pan of cornbread that's supposed to 517 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 3: be like a shared appetizer, and obviously ate the whole 518 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: thing myself. And then afterwards I took an uber back, 519 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 3: which took like twenty five minutes, you know, and I'm 520 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: passing like all the ways that I had, all the 521 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: things that I had passed on my course. It's funny 522 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 3: because I thought when I went on this long walk 523 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 3: that I was going to be productive, you know, it's 524 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 3: just how I think. I was like, I'm gonna make 525 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: some phone calls, I'm gonna do some stuff. But then 526 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: like my phone battery like charged down, like within the 527 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: first couple of hours because you're using GPS, and I 528 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 3: was like, oh, okay, so I really do just have 529 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 3: to I can't even listen to music for most of 530 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 3: that walk. And so it's just a small, small thing 531 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: that is now a core memory of mine. And it 532 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: wasn't that hard to do. And so the reason I 533 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 3: did it, I probably should have said this first is 534 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: I just I found myself too much in the routine 535 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 3: and I wanted to disrupt it a little bit. And 536 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: so I was a chapter in the book about practice 537 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 3: having fun and how do you actually practice having fun? 538 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 3: And for me that's that is a little bit of 539 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: a journey because I like to work. So it was 540 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: good for me. 541 00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: It was good. 542 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: All right, Well people can try that if they wish, sure, 543 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: you know, maybe just do something else. 544 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: That's a little adventure for well, Chris, where can people 545 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: find you? 546 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 3: Oh? Thank you, Laura. So the new book is Time 547 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: Anxiety Time Anxiety dot com. There's some information about the book. 548 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 3: I'm doing a tour across North America, and then I 549 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: write a weekly newsletter. E're of mental health dot com. 550 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: You can read it there. And then I'm on social 551 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: media at Chris killipo, which nobody can spell, but if 552 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: you talk about in something close to that, you'll get 553 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: to me. 554 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: That sounds good, well, Chris, Thank you so much for 555 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: joining us. Thank you everyone for listening. If you have 556 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 2: feedback on this or any other episode, you can reach 557 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 558 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 559 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: the most of our time. 560 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, 561 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura 562 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. 563 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, 564 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.