1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of October tenth, nineteen eighty one, 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: a young woman noticed a man checking her out at 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: a bar in Louisville, Kentucky. When she left, he followed 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: her outside, abducted her at gunpoint, and brought her to 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: nearby Iroquois Park, where he beat, robbed, and raped her. 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: The victim described him as a white man driving a 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: green car, about five eleven over two hundred pounds, with curly, 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: dark brown hair and blue eyes. After a rape kit 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: was performed, she helped create a composite sketch, which was 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: circulated among the local bars. The following day, a man 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: who closely resembled that sketch, Michael van Alman, walked into 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: the very same bar from which the victim had been abducted. 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: When Michael left, the bar, patrons followed him home, tipped 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: off the police, and his picture was shown to the 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: victim in a photo array. One would think that an 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: uncanny resemblance to the composite sketch and a positive idea 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: from the victim would mean that the authority's got the 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: right guy. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Today, we have a case that at the 20 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: heart of it is a mesmerizing web of unfortunate coincidence 21 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: that then kind of loops back around to become fortunate, 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: and hearing it might make you question or might reaffirm 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: your belief system. Sometimes our guests are victims of a 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: direct evil actor or systemic injustice, but this time in Louisville, Kentucky. 25 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: Not to say there wasn't plenty of blame to go around, 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: but well, you'll see what I mean in a bit, 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: And of course we're talking about what happened to Michael 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: Van Allman. So Mike, welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 29 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me and. 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: With my I guess Ted Shause, a Louisville defense attorney, 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: the former director by the way of the Kentucky Innisis Project, 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: who Kentucky voters had the opportunity to elected the bench 33 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: as a Circuit court judge in November twenty two, but 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: they missed. I'm going to say they blew that opportunity, 35 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: and I'm going to say it right now. They would 36 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: have been lucky to have him. So Ted, welcome to 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: the show. 38 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 39 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Now before we talk about this horrible crime and the 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: odd and really unfortunate coincidence that led to your wrongful conviction. Mike, 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: you had served in the military, which just feels to 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: me like it makes it all seem worse somehow. But 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: before we get into any of that, what was your 44 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: life like growing up? Did you grow up in the 45 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: city of Louisville. 46 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely, Yeah, Louisville grew up close to Churchill Downs, so 47 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 4: that was certainly bred into me as well. So very Louisville. 48 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 4: My father was a firefighter for the Louisville Fire Department. 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 4: Working class, middle class. We lived in a neighborhood where 50 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 4: the whole street was full of kids and you know, 51 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: went to school, clam trees, played bow and what I 52 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 4: thought was quite normal life. 53 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean, your story sounds so quintessentially American that I 54 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: can actually smell apple pie while you're talking. And then, 55 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: of course you went into the Navy, And how was 56 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: that experience. 57 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 4: Well, the structure of the military wasn't quite conducive to 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 4: my personality, so. 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. 60 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 4: I was in rebellion the whole time and was glad 61 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 4: to get out of there. 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: And so you came home, as I understand it, you 63 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: celebrated your sort of emancipation ever you want to call 64 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: it from the military with sort of living it up right, 65 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: A lot of girlfriends and we're smoking we eat. No 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: judgment here. I smoked enough of it when I was 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: a kid to sink a ship and drinking it's at her. 68 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: But you were young and no judgment here. But then 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: you were blindsided by this crazy situation. I mean, this 70 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: crime was an awful crime, make no mistake about it. 71 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: This is something that happened on October tenth of nineteen 72 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: eighty one, when a twenty two year old woman was 73 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: abduct at gunpoint outside of a tavern in Louisville, Kentucky. 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: She was taken to a nearby park called Iroquois Park, 75 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: where she was beaten, raped, and robbed, and the victim 76 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: described her assailant as a guy about five foot eleven 77 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: inches tall, weighing over two hundred pounds, with blue eyes 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: and curly, dark brown hair. First of all, Mike, did 79 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: you fit the description of the perpetrator. 80 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 4: They had a composite drawing that looked identical to me except. 81 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: For one very important feature. Mike has brown eyes, not blue. 82 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: And this is not the first time we've heard of 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: a situation where our guests looked very similar to the 84 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: actual assailant. We've also heard of the actual assailant varying 85 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: wildly from the victim's initial description and ultimate misidentification, and 86 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: we've heard everything in between. But remember, our minds are 87 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: not cameras. Some people like to think that they can 88 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: remember things exactly, it's not the way the mine works, 89 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: especially not with visual images. Then, Jennifer Thompson does the 90 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: best job of anyone I know talking about this. Remember 91 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: she was called the perfect witness in a case where 92 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: she herself was raped, and for the entire horrible ordeal, 93 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: which lasted almost a half hour, she studied her assailant 94 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: because she was determined that if she lived, she was 95 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: going to make sure that she identified the person and 96 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: that this would never happen to anyone else. But ultimately 97 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: she identified the wrong guy, Ronald Cotton, who looked almost 98 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: identical to the actual assailant. As it turns out, DNA 99 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: ultimately proved Ronald's actual innocence, but that wasn't the case here, 100 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in a bit. However, a 101 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: rape it was performed, and then a few hours later 102 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: they worked with the victim. On the composite sketch. 103 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 4: She noticed this guy checking her out the whole night, 104 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 4: so she really had a good picture of who this 105 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 4: guy was, so she brought together this composite drawing that 106 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 4: was almost identical to the guy and unfortunately, almost identical 107 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 4: to me. The police had circulated that picture to. 108 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: All the local bars. 109 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 4: That Saturday evening, and as it turned out, it was 110 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: the Sunday evening the day after they got this composite drawing. 111 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 4: I went into the very same bar that had happened, 112 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 4: not having a clue. As I'm sitting here ordering a 113 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 4: cold beer, They're looking at this composite drawing and said, wow, crazy. 114 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 4: Sob done returned to the scene of the crime that 115 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 4: mobilized everybody in that bar, and they followed me home 116 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: in my blue Volkswagon. 117 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: But the initial description and composite sketch said that the 118 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: assailant was driving a green car. So again we have 119 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: something here that should have been a big red flag 120 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: and should have ended this before it began, because not 121 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: only does myke have brown eyes, not blue, but he 122 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: has a blue car, not a green car. 123 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 4: But I lived in this apartment complex, and as I 124 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: pulled in the park. It was right next to my 125 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: neighbor's green sixty eight Chevrolet, and they just added the 126 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: two together, saying, there's the green car, there's the guy. 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 4: They called the police with an anonymous tip of two 128 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 4: license plates that it could be. 129 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: So, first of all, what a terrible string of coincidences, 130 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: with you going to this particular bar at exactly the 131 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: time that they had seen this composite sketch of an 132 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: assailant that closely resembled you except for the eye color, 133 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: of course, But I don't think you can see that 134 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: in a composite sketch, obviously, right. But what happens was 135 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: this posse followed you home and in another crazy twisted fate, 136 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: you happened to pull in next to your neighbor's green car. 137 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: Now there was a partial plate number from the actual 138 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: assailants green car. 139 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 3: The license plates were close enough similar enough that it 140 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 3: might have been well, it clearly was persuasive to a jury, 141 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: But it really was the composite sketch that did it. 142 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 3: As you can see even today, Michael Scott frizzy hair. 143 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: At the time he had a full head of curly hair, 144 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 3: and so did the actual perpetrator and it really was 145 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: the composite sketch that that was the driving force behind 146 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: this conviction. 147 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: Again, what an awful coincidence, and it's about as remarkable 148 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: as the coincidental alternative fate that proved your innocence. So 149 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: did the victim identify you? 150 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 4: When they had followed me home and they got these 151 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 4: two license numbers from that information, they got my name, 152 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 4: and they took a photo of an old arrest I'd 153 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 4: had for some misdemeanor and probably drunk in the public place. 154 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 4: Threw this photo into a photo pack. I think there 155 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 4: was five, maybe six pictures, but there was only one 156 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 4: big curly headed guy in that photo pack. So the 157 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: victim was shown the photo pack and when she got 158 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 4: to the big curly headed guy, she said, well, kind 159 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 4: of looks like him, but not for certain you know, 160 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 4: certainly there wasn't any blue eyes that she could identify 161 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 4: and say, yeah, that's him. But about a week week 162 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 4: and a half later, showed her the very same photo 163 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: pack and she made a positive identification. They had three 164 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 4: filmy warrants on me for rape, robbery. 165 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: And right and the lead up to your arrest, since 166 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: you worked a lot, the police often missed you during 167 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: the day right there would show me your house daylight hours, 168 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: and you started hearing about this from your neighbors. 169 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 4: I had come home from work one day and the 170 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 4: owner of that green car, I met him at the 171 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 4: mailbox and he asked me, said, hey, what are the 172 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 4: police looking for you for? I said, police, what do 173 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 4: you mean? He said, well, they've been by here a 174 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: couple times this week knocking on your door. I said, well, 175 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 4: I don't know, but thanks, I'll find out what's going on. 176 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: I can't believe that the guy who owned the green 177 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: car that was mistaken for the assailants car, that that 178 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: was the guy who told you about the cops coming by. 179 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 1: But soon you did find out what was going on, 180 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: and you learned that these were some really serious charges. 181 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: So they had the partial plate number that composed the 182 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: sketch and the VIC them's misidentification. Now, from what I understand, 183 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: you spoke to an attorney and tried to arrange for 184 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: bond with your parents. 185 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 4: As I'm on the phone with my mother, the police 186 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 4: officers pulled up in front of my house. Told my mother, Mama, 187 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 4: I'll talk to you later. I ran outside to try 188 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 4: to talk to him to give me another hour to 189 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 4: find get this bond situated, and we'd get I'd be in, 190 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 4: we'd get this straightened out. And they looked at me like, yeah, 191 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 4: give you an hour getting this car. 192 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: So you were arrested. Did you end up bonding out 193 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: or did you end up awaiting trial from jail as 194 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: we so often here. 195 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 4: That was another miracle part of my story. One of 196 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 4: the people that worked in the bond preparing system knew me, 197 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 4: went to high school with me, and knew this was 198 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 4: way out of character. So I don't know what maneuvers 199 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 4: she had available, but she got this really low two 200 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 4: thousand dollars bond set for me, and it was posted 201 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 4: right away. So I was out on bond for about 202 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: sixteen months before I finally went to trial. 203 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: All right, so you were available to fight the case 204 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: from the outside. This left you in a better position 205 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: than most ted did his lawyer take advantage of that 206 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: to the. 207 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: Extent that there's blame in this case, There's plenty to 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 3: go around. First of all, the police were second of 209 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: all the prosecution, but the defense council also needs to 210 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 3: own some blame here. DNA was not available at the time. 211 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 3: But what's important to remember is that this was an 212 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: old fashioned case that relied on old fashioned work ethic. 213 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 3: Mike had in alibi. He was at a barbecue an 214 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 3: outdoor party on the night that this occurred. 215 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 4: I had four witnesses testifan where I was, and I 216 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 4: think the owner of the green car testa fed that 217 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 4: I never used this car. 218 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: Those witnesses should have been adequately prepared to present a 219 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: cogent defense for Mike, and they weren't. I've tried many 220 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: many cases in Kentucky, and simply calling witnesses and putting 221 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 3: around the witness stand that may seem like an appropriate way. Well, 222 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 3: the witnesses were called, but if they're not properly prepared, 223 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: and if a cogent and complete defense is not prepared 224 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 3: before the trial begins, you're not really putting out of defense. 225 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: You're just throwing witnesses up there at that point, and 226 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 3: that's not putting out a defense. 227 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 2: Right. 228 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: Unless there's this solid narrative created between the alibi witnesses 229 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: and the corroborating physical evidence, a prosecutor can easily shred 230 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: the credibility of that alibi simply by pointing out that 231 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: these are Mike's friends or relatives who might be willing 232 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: to lie. The jury, though, did hear that her assailant's 233 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: eyes were blue while Mike's were brown, which I think 234 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: should have meant more to everyone, including the judge, the prosecutor, 235 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: and I hate to say it, but the victim too. 236 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: That physical evidence clearly corroborated the alibi. But the misidentification 237 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: and the composite sketchet, just like Mike, let's face it, 238 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: they just outweigh everything. 239 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: To be fair. 240 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 3: In those days, the notion of misidentification was in its infancy. 241 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: The notion that trauma and stress lead to misidentification was 242 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: almost unheard of, and so the power of the composite 243 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: sketch cannot be overstated. 244 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: At this point, were you confident that people would see 245 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: the truth. 246 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 4: Certainly I had a blind belief that the American justice 247 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 4: system would sort out the truth in this, especially with 248 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 4: everyone testifying to where I was and myself included. 249 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: Take us to that moment, that which must have been 250 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: the worst moment of your life when they came in 251 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: and got it exactly wrong. 252 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 4: Total disbelief. My family in behind me, my head, a 253 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 4: sister who was eight and a half months pregnant in 254 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: behind me, and she. 255 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: Just began. 256 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 4: When she started wailing, I just couldn't look back, and 257 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: they just carried me off and took me away, and yeah, 258 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 4: I couldn't look back at my family. 259 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and we'll be 260 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: right back. 261 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 5: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 262 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 5: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 263 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 5: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 264 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 5: in the communities where we work and live. In light 265 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 5: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 266 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 5: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 267 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 5: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 268 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 5: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 269 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 4: I had been arrested plenty of times, but I never 270 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 4: made it outside of the holding cell for the little 271 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 4: misdemeanors that I had, so I never actually went beyond that. 272 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 4: And so this was certainly a fearful time as far 273 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 4: as my normal self going into where the mean boys 274 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 4: are held up at and trying to adjust to what 275 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 4: the jail house environment was like, you know, very fearful, 276 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 4: I guess, very confusing and difficult time and it led 277 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 4: to a pretty quick transformation into Christianity, which was my 278 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 4: mother's reason for all of this happening. So it got 279 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 4: me through about the first year of adjustment of jail 280 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 4: and prison. But eventually I've got to the point where 281 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 4: I didn't believe God was really doing this and got 282 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 4: back to my old character and adjusting to prison life. 283 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: You found religion and lost religion through this experience. 284 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: It sounds like redefined it for sure. Yes. 285 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, we hear stories of you know, men and women 286 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: have gone through similar experience to yours, and they've gone, 287 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, one way or the other. I haven't actually 288 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: heard the full circle version of that, but it's interesting 289 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: to hear you tell it, and I'm gonna have to 290 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: say it's understandable. I mean, who knows how anyone would 291 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: react going through this most incredibly traumatic experience that you 292 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: were subjected to. So since to thirty years you're at 293 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: that point, How old were you? I was twenty five, right, 294 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: So they're sending you to spend more time in prison 295 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: by a significant margin than you had actually been alive 296 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: on this planet. 297 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: Yes, so I get the prison and of course right away, 298 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 4: trying to prove my innocence and start demanding some kind 299 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 4: of lie detection, whatever method that they could come up with. 300 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: My course, my lawyer is doing the direct appeal, and 301 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: the direct appeal was affirmed fairly quickly. So the next 302 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 4: move was back to our trial court with the eleven 303 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 4: forty two motion, and in an effort to arm myself 304 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 4: as best as I could, I demanded from my new attorney, 305 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 4: get me these polygraph tests, and let's get something in 306 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 4: front of this judge before we go with this eleven 307 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: forty two. So he finally hires a polygraph operator on 308 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 4: his own, a police officer. As I passed this test, 309 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: it wasn't long afterwards that that same officer was indicted 310 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 4: for an arsen charge over his restaurant. So that kind 311 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: of nullified anything this guy had to say about anything. 312 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: It's like you were on a downward spiral in a 313 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: sea of legal quicksand driven by a string of unfortunate coincidences. 314 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: So that blew up that effort and the timing of 315 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: that appeal. So back to getting another polygraph test. 316 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 4: So as we're working to get this done, up jumps 317 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 4: another possible suspect, not a big curly headed guy, but 318 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 4: a big, wavy headed guy, and he had a string 319 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,239 Speaker 4: of sexual assaults that wasn't identical, didn't match up to 320 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 4: the MO but he was from the neighborhood, and everybody 321 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 4: focused on him as the possible actual perpetrator, and I 322 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 4: was hopeful that he was going to confess to the 323 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 4: crime I was accused of. And then my attorney was 324 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 4: finally able to get a polygraph set up with the 325 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 4: Louisville Police Department working with the Commonwealth Attorney's office, and 326 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 4: when I passed that polygraph test, the police reopened my 327 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 4: case with that other suspect that I just mentioned with 328 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 4: him in. 329 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: Mad But unfortunately, even though this serial rapist did confess 330 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: to other crimes, he never actually confessed the crime for 331 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: which Mike served eleven years. Now, after losing in court 332 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: twice and this reinvestigation running dry, you pivoted to petitioning 333 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: the parole board for early consideration. And maybe that reopening 334 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: of your case and a fresh look had something to 335 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: do with your being considered for early parole. 336 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 3: The consideration of early parole is almost unheard of in Kentucky, 337 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 3: and when Michael was granted early consideration, you know, three 338 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 3: times before he eventually got parolled. That's that's almost unheard 339 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 3: of in Kentucky. 340 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like there were probably some whispers in 341 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: the halls of power there. 342 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 3: There were some recognition that this was a miscarriage. 343 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 1: But even with that potential recognition, Michael was denied and 344 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: deferred three times, which is how he did eleven long years. 345 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: And it seemed like every time he was up for parole, 346 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: some other parole would be in the news for having 347 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: committed some sort of other heinous crime. Even though we 348 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: know it's a tiny fraction of the people who come home, 349 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: those are the ones that make news. But this meant 350 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: that any willingness of the parole board to give Michael 351 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt would just shrivel up. They'd 352 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: give you some bs about you needing to take some 353 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: courses AA, sex offender rehab, etc. Even though there was 354 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: so much doubt in your case, and you did pursue 355 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: those avenues as well. Now before you were eventually paroled, 356 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: there were two other avenues or storylines that were building 357 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: steam as DNA testing evolved. He began to seek out 358 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: the buyolife magical materials in your case, and then there 359 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: was a girl from your neighborhood who ended up being 360 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: instrumental in your freedom. 361 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, in the neighborhood that I grew up in was 362 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 4: a girl who lived down the street. As we got 363 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 4: to high school, she just kind of disappeared, and we 364 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 4: had heard that she was off with some crazy crowds. 365 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 4: So I get convicted and my mother comes down there 366 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 4: to visit me. When she is coming down there to 367 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 4: visit somebody else in prison as well, but she knows 368 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 4: my mother really well, and she says, she looks up 369 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: and sees her and says, Wow, what are you doing here? 370 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 4: And my mother says, well, I'm seeing Mike. Mike's here 371 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 4: for a rape charge. What are you doing here? She said, Well, 372 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 4: I'm here seeing an old friend. Ten years goes by 373 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 4: and the guy that she had come to visit that time, 374 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 4: he's now getting ready to get out on parole. And 375 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 4: during this ten years I have become really good friends 376 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 4: with this guy. He sends a letter out to this girl. 377 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 4: You know, he's looking for somebody to hook up with 378 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 4: it when he gets out. So he writes this letter 379 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 4: and she writes him back, so, oh, yeah, you can 380 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 4: call me when you get out. And oh, by the way, 381 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 4: any chance you know a guy named Mike van Almond. 382 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 4: I believe my exes the one committed his crime. Well, 383 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: like I say, we had been to good friends. This 384 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 4: guy had been listening to me whining about my innocence 385 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: for ten years now. When he got this letter, it 386 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 4: all made sense to him, and he brought it straight 387 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 4: to me and said, here, read this. And as I'm 388 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 4: reading and I get to that point Mike von Omon. 389 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: I says what the guy look like? 390 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 4: And the guy says, big curly had a guy. 391 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: And then I go to reading back. 392 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 4: I said, well, where's he at? He says he's dead, 393 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 4: killed in a car wreck. 394 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: So your big break still came with a big uphill battle. 395 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: There you were, you must have felt like you'd been 396 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: hit by lightning. But this evidence still needed to be developed. 397 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: So for now your best bet was still the parole board, 398 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: and you had been taking classes, building up a positive 399 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: appearance on paper for these people who usually demanded a 400 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: mission of guilt which you were not fitting to give them. 401 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: And finally the day came in nineteen ninety. 402 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 4: Four, that last parole hearing. 403 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: I mean, it's etched in my memory forever. 404 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: I wasn't going to go up there and talk to 405 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 4: them any kind of way about guilt or innocence. I 406 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 4: just wanted to focus on what I had done in 407 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 4: Nils eleven years, the sex offense class and all that 408 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 4: kind of stuff. I completed my AA degree. I went 409 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 4: in with my little spiel and they said, oh, that's 410 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 4: pretty good, pretty impressive, but let's hear about the story again. 411 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 4: We want to hear it one more time. Are you guilty? 412 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 4: And I just shrunk. I felt that was going to 413 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 4: be the end of it. I thought I was going 414 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 4: to get a serve out on my sentence from there. 415 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 4: But I just shrunk and said, no, man, I never 416 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 4: saw that girl before in my life. I don't know her. 417 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 4: And they said, okay, step out and I come back in, 418 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 4: and they said, we're going to give you the benefit 419 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 4: of the doubt. Do not come back in front of us. 420 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 4: We won't be as nice the next time. Here's your shot, buddy. 421 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: I've been a criminal defense attorney for twenty three years. 422 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: I was the directing attorney of the Kentucky Innocence Project 423 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 3: for two of those years. What you just heard is 424 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 3: one of the gutsiest moves I've ever heard a criminal 425 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 3: defendant make Mike stuck to his guns. He stuck to 426 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 3: the truth. He told those people the truth. He took 427 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 3: an incredible risk. Might have been easier to say what 428 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 3: they wanted to hear and increase his chances of being 429 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 3: released from prison, but he stuck to his truth. He 430 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: stuck to the truth. That is an incredible gutsy move. 431 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: It is, it really is. And Michael can count himself 432 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: amongst some rarefied company that we've had on the show, 433 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: courageous men and women who have done a similar thing 434 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: when they could have done and he could have done 435 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: the practical thing it seemed like anyway, and maybe seen 436 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: a clear path to freedom, but he didn't and still 437 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: was rewarded. So now he's been paroled, right, but his 438 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: name was not cleared yet. 439 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: Mike's case was hanging in this weird limbo at this time. 440 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 3: Of course, he was released for prison. At that point 441 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: everyone said, oh, well, no harm, no foul. This was, 442 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: of course, after Ike had spent eleven years in prison 443 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 3: for a crime he didn't commit. 444 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this still needed to be made right. So 445 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: you had already pursued DNA testing and were told that 446 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: the evidence didn't exist. But who knows. They may have 447 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: just been stonewalling you, as we've seen time and again 448 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: on this program, where the evidence does exist, but they 449 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: just refuse to hand it over. 450 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 4: I made every move I could possibly make trying to 451 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 4: find this biological evidence. About a year later or so, 452 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 4: you know, I just gave up on trying to prove 453 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 4: my innocence. I was out, get busy living, don't worry 454 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 4: about the innis's. You know, this freedom thing is pretty 455 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 4: damn nice, So just do whatever you gotta do to 456 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 4: stay with that. 457 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: And I did. 458 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 4: I was still Mike phone on and the very same 459 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 4: guy that they locked up. 460 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's an absolutely remarkable way to make peace 461 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: with a terrible injustice. But that's not the end of 462 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: the story. How did Ted end up getting involved? 463 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 4: Finally, sixteen years goes by. I'll make the coffee flop 464 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 4: the newspaper down on the kitchen table, and they're right 465 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 4: on the front page. Was Ted in this grant money 466 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 4: to investigate wrongful convictions? 467 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: And I read. 468 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 4: That's still emotional too. I read that story, and the 469 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 4: very first day I was so full of emotion I 470 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: couldn't call. But the second day I mustered up enough 471 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 4: fortitude that. I called down to Tid's office and I said, Hey, 472 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 4: that happened to me in the eighties. And he said, well, 473 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 4: you're the person we're looking for. And I said, well, yeah, 474 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 4: my name's Mike van Onman, let's get going. 475 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 3: I remember that phone call vividly. I had just been 476 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 3: hired as the directing attorney of the Innocence Project to 477 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: oversee this grant from the United States Department of Justice 478 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 3: to do research on a narrow group of sex offenses, 479 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 3: and the thinking of the grant was that DNA would 480 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 3: be how we would solve these cases. As part of 481 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: that effort, I did a sort of public relations outreach. 482 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: There were articles in the newspaper, I went on the radio, 483 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,239 Speaker 3: I went on TV trying to reach people, and I 484 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: remember Mike's phone call very well. And retired louisvill Police 485 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 3: Lieutenant Gary Simpkins, who was my investigator at the time. 486 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: I sent him out to talk to Mike. And Gary 487 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: was and still is a cops cop. He is a 488 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 3: Vietnam veteran, a veteran of I believe twenty five years 489 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: on the Lobsll Police Department and did everything you can 490 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: do in those twenty five years from patrol officer to 491 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: homicide detective. I believe Gary's last job was as what 492 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: we call the public Integrity Unit. Most people would call 493 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 3: that internal affairs. So Gary came after interviewing Mike and said, 494 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: I think this is a legitimate case. I went to 495 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: the then serving Commonwealth attorney and said, we've received this grant. 496 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 3: We'd like to see if there's any DNA evidence available. 497 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 3: The then serving Comwalth attorney said, I have no interest 498 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 3: in seeing an innocent person wrongfully convicted do it. This 499 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 3: is where it gets interesting. I then went to see 500 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: a judge to see about tracking down the DNA evidence. 501 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 3: And the judge who I went to see said, about 502 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: this case, who is the defense lawyer? And when I 503 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: told him the defense lawyer name, he then said, who 504 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 3: is the judge? And I told him the judge's name. 505 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 3: Who is the prosecutor? And I told him the prosecutor's name, 506 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 3: and this judge went, oh what, oh God. So what 507 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: we have here is a case that was a perfect storm. 508 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 3: I like to say that for criminal cases to work properly, 509 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 3: there are three gears that have to turn prosecution defense 510 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 3: and the judge. One of those gears can be wildly 511 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: out of whack, and the system can still work. But 512 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 3: if two or all three of those gears are out 513 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 3: of whack, the system will not work. So what we 514 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 3: had here is this perfect storm of a bad identification, 515 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 3: a bad police sketch, bad defense work, bad prosecution, and 516 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 3: bad judging all come together. 517 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: So now you have the herculean task of not providing 518 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt but actually proving his actual innocence. The power 519 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: dynamic is complete, letely flipped in post conviction, and you've 520 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: requested every document of the sun as well as physical evidence. 521 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: And it turned out in this case that they were 522 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: not stonewalling Mike after all, but rather that the biological 523 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: evidence had been destroyed. 524 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 3: There was no DNA evidence in this case, so we 525 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: had to do it the old fashioned way and persuade 526 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: the court that an injustice had occurred here without the 527 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 3: benefit of DNA evidence. 528 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: And that brings us back to this woman from Mike's 529 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: neighborhood who had recognized Mike's mother in the visiting room 530 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: at prison and had been visiting a friend of Mike's 531 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: on the inside. This woman had previously been married to 532 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: this man that she believed had committed the crime for 533 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: which Mike served eleven years. Now she was available to 534 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 1: be interviewed by your investigator, Gary Simpkins, even though her 535 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: ex husband was not available as he had died in 536 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: a car crash back in nineteen eighty three. 537 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 3: He was just killed in a car crash. He was 538 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 3: killed while participating in a high speed chase driving the 539 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: green car with the partial license that was given to 540 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 3: the police about Mike's case. The Louisville and Shively police 541 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: departments were chasing him and we were able to find 542 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 3: the police reports from the car crash. So because of 543 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 3: the circumstances of the wreck, the police took a ton 544 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 3: of photos of that wreck. The car matched the descriptions 545 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 3: the license plate, his physical description, and the fact that 546 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 3: he had committed a signature sexual assault, taking the victim 547 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: of this other case to the same location in Iroquois Park, 548 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 3: saying the same things to the victim in that case 549 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 3: and doing the same things in that case. I mean, 550 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 3: the signature was identical in that offense as the one 551 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 3: that Mike was wrongfully convicted of. 552 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: Wait, so what color were this guy's eyes? 553 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: Blue? Blue? 554 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, that girl that grew up down the street from 555 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 4: me and it was his death that freed her and 556 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 4: allowed her to go see this other guy and make 557 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 4: for this chance meeting at the Prism with my mother. 558 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 4: Had he still been a lot, yeah, that chance meeting 559 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 4: never would have occurred, and we'd still been looking for him. 560 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. 561 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 3: The interviews with the woman from the neighborhood who was 562 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 3: also a victim of the real perpetrator in that signature crime. 563 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: Her interview was critical the way in which she recounted 564 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: what he had done to her, what his lifestyle was 565 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 3: like at the time, the car, the license plate, the composite, 566 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: all of that. But it was also given a great 567 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 3: deal of credibility I want to point out by our investigator, who, 568 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 3: as I say, was a retired Louisville Police Department lieutenant 569 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 3: who had worked alongside some of the officers who investigated 570 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 3: Mike's case and who knew the system intimately okay, and 571 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 3: so he was able to bring that experience to bear. 572 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 3: And I also want to point out how unusual it 573 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: is for a retired police lieutenant to go to work 574 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: for the Kentucky Innocence Project. Had Gary come to me 575 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 3: early in this case and said, I think it's a 576 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: bum steer. I don't think there's anything here that might 577 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 3: have been the end of it. That's not what happened. 578 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: Gary came to me and said, I want you to 579 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 3: meet this guy. I want you to meet this woman. 580 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: I want you to take a look at this. I 581 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 3: trusted him. I trusted his judgment. I trusted his judgment 582 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 3: as an investigator. This was sort of old fashioned shoe 583 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 3: leather detective work and old fashioned. 584 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: Shoe leather lawyer work. 585 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 3: I remember the day I went to Mike's house and 586 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 3: sat down in his kitchen and met him for the 587 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 3: first time and was compelled. We met the woman from 588 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 3: the neighborhood who gave us an affidavit, a detailed sworn statement, 589 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 3: and we were able to put all the pieces together 590 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 3: to say. 591 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: This is not right. 592 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 3: This man did not do this, and we know who did. 593 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 3: And we took that to court. There's a procedure, it's 594 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 3: sort of a safety valve in the law that allows 595 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 3: for you know, break glass and turn the knob here, 596 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 3: and so that's how we went to court. The court 597 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 3: vacated his sentence, and then the prosecutors chose not to 598 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 3: pursue the prosecution any further. 599 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: And the man's name was Ronald Tackett. Not only had 600 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: he victimized these young women in nineteen seventy eight, in 601 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one in very much the same way, but 602 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: also his own wife and who knows how many other 603 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: women that just never spoke up. But luckily for so 604 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: many others, he met his demise in nineteen eighty three 605 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: before wrecking any more havoc. While Michael rotted in prison 606 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: for eleven years, eleven long years, and then serving how 607 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: many years on parole. 608 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 4: After served sixteen years on parole, probably about one year's 609 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 4: worth of investigating bet Ted and Gary, I met them 610 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 4: at about fifteen years on parole. In sixteen years, I 611 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 4: was exonerated. 612 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,959 Speaker 2: Laugh. Fifteenth was the final day. 613 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: So what was that like? Can you take us there? 614 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 4: Well, it was really a huge surprise because up until 615 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 4: that point I was believing that they were going to 616 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 4: retry me, and that on this particular day I was 617 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 4: just going in to get another court date. So I 618 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 4: wore my blue jeans and T shirt down there because 619 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 4: I was just gonna sneak out and go back to 620 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 4: work right away. So Ted starts shuffling around and he whispered. 621 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 4: I think it's over or something, you know, really, Ted, 622 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 4: I got to say, that's a blank moment right in there, 623 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 4: just to hear that it's going to be dismissing over. 624 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: It was just. 625 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 4: Unbelievable moment that I've been asked what it felt like 626 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 4: and I couldn't describe it. The only way I could, 627 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 4: I'm gonna show it to you now. This is the 628 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 4: only way I can describe it. If y'all can see. 629 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: That, And for our listening audience, since we were recording 630 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: a plot from this kind of like zoom, I can 631 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: see Mike as we record this, and he's showing us 632 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: a photo on the wall right behind him, and it's 633 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: that iconic photo of the great Muhammad Ali, a Louisville 634 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: native by the way, where Mohammed is standing over the 635 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: body of Sonny Liston, who he's just knocked down in 636 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: the ring. You've probably seen the photo yourself. It's one 637 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: of the greatest sports images in history. 638 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 4: That's what it felt like and does every day. I 639 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 4: gotta say I was ready to go back to work, 640 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 4: but no, I took off the rest of the day. 641 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: The y Yeah, I'm sure you didn't. I mean, it 642 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: must have been a glorious day, even better than the 643 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: day of your parole, I'd. 644 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 4: Imagine, absolutely finally getting it off your back, finally the 645 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 4: truth being understood by the world, still the day I 646 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 4: was let out on parole. If they're two different events, 647 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 4: but man ay right, way way up. 648 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 1: I can only begin to imagine. And from what I understand, 649 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: you two and your families really have like an insane 650 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: connection from the past that you only discovered on that 651 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: fateful day. Is that right? 652 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 3: We had a catastrophic tornado here in nineteen seventy four 653 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 3: that did a tremendous amount of damage to the city, 654 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 3: and it wasn't until I was finished representing Michael that 655 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 3: I realized, or we discovered that his father had actually 656 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 3: done repair work on my parents' house in nineteen seventy 657 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 3: four when his dad, who was a firefighter, was also 658 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 3: doing construction as a side gig, and Michael's dad had 659 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 3: done work on the house I grew up in in 660 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, and we would not meet each other 661 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 3: for twenty five years later, and we discovered that in 662 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 3: the courtroom when the court vacated Michael's conviction, I turned 663 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 3: around and his dad gave me a hug and said, 664 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 3: you look just like your dad. And I said, how 665 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 3: would did you know that? And he said, because I 666 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 3: did work on your house when you were a kid 667 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 3: after the tornado. 668 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: Well, that really puts a nice exclamation point on what 669 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: was otherwise a great day anyway, a great day that 670 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: we'd hope never would have had to come to pass, 671 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: as it was brought on by the awful flaws in 672 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system and the flawed human beings who 673 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: run it, which has brought you, Michael, to a cause 674 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: that is so near and dear to me, abolishing the 675 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: death penalty. 676 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 4: I've become a board member of the Coalition to Abolish 677 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 4: the Death Penalty. We had some momentum going on that issue. 678 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 4: We started drawing some national attention, and we got some 679 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 4: national grants to work on this issue. We have set 680 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 4: a goal of abolishing the death penalty in Kentucky by 681 00:39:54,239 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 4: the year twenty twenty five. KSEADP is the Coalition to 682 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 4: Abolish the Death Penalty in Kentucky. 683 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna have that site linked in 684 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: the bio, along with other action steps. And that brings 685 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: us to I always call it my favorite part of 686 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: the show let's face it's the best part of the show. 687 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: It's the part called closing arguments, and it's the part where, 688 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: as our listeners know, I turned my microphone off, kick 689 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: back in my chair with my headphones on, close my eyes, 690 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: and just listen to anything else that you guys have 691 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: to say. So, Ted, why don't you started off? And 692 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: then Michael take us out into the sunset. 693 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 3: Mike, you've become a friend, a real friend. You're why 694 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 3: I became a lawyer, the opportunity to represent you, the 695 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 3: opportunity to fight for you, the opportunity to prove your innocence. 696 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 3: Thanks a lot. It was a life changer, and I 697 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 3: knew it was for you as well, but just as 698 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 3: a lawyer. It's just And we've known each other now 699 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 3: for what fifteen years? Twelve years? 700 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 2: No thanks? So yeah, it's getting up right. 701 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. You came to the visitation when my dad died, 702 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 3: and I came to the visitation when your dad died. 703 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 3: You're my friend, Mike. I love you. 704 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 4: You stop that stop you're going to do far all right? 705 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 2: I love you too, man. 706 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 4: My closing thing would be, I guess that all of 707 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 4: this is a human endeavor, and there are going to 708 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 4: be mistakes made, allow for mistakes to be corrected, work 709 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 4: some kind of way into the system that mistakes can 710 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 4: be corrected. And, as Jesus may say, cast the first stone. 711 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 4: If you're flawless, then you think everything else is flawless. 712 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: Cast the first stone. 713 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ravel Conviction. I'd like to 714 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: thank our team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis, 715 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 716 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 717 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 718 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 719 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 720 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 721 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 722 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with 723 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one