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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've got it all backwards. It's one

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Speaker 1: more thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm strong and getty, one more thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we've ever just played a clip

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Speaker 1: of another podcast on our podcast. Seems a little weird,

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Speaker 1: but I came across this. It was floating around social media.

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Speaker 1: This author, Abigail Schreyer, who's written a bunch of different things,

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Speaker 1: got a lot of attention. But anyway, this particular aspect,

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Speaker 1: given my dislike of most therapy and my experiences with

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Speaker 1: therapy both for me and my family and my kids,

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Speaker 1: and the many thousands of dollars spent, and how little

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Speaker 1: good it did, if not more harm, I thought was

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Speaker 1: really really interesting. So this is from the Joe Rogan

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Speaker 1: podcast with an author who's written a book about this

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Speaker 1: sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: I never really.

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Speaker 3: Considered that, and tell your book. Until I heard the

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Speaker 3: title of your book and I've read synopsis of it,

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Speaker 3: I never really considered it. I never considered that thinking

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Speaker 3: about your problems all the time and talking about your

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Speaker 3: problems all the time literally make the problems grow.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's the number one symptom of depression, is

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Speaker 4: what they call rumination, This pathological obsessing over your pain. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's why stuff like exercise. That's one of the reasons,

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Speaker 4: aside from chemical reasons. One of the reasons that doing it.

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Speaker 4: You know that running errands is good for your mental health.

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Speaker 4: Getting out of your house and accomplishing anything, yeah, is

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Speaker 4: good for you. But sitting around talking and thinking about

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Speaker 4: your problems, that's a bad habit. And the best cognitive

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Speaker 4: behavioral therapists and others, you know, the dialectical behavioral therapist,

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Speaker 4: the ones who do really well with depression. The first

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Speaker 4: thing they do is try to break on that bad pattern.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of therapists just indulge it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, a lot is in practically all of them. What

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Speaker 1: you do every week is go in and restate your

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Speaker 1: miserable situation, whatever it is, and talk about it some more,

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Speaker 1: and then give them a bunch of money and come

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Speaker 1: back next week and ruminate on it some more. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: for years at a time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was clicking around about this book and other

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Speaker 5: things and having it come across a piece in the

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Speaker 5: National Review which talks about this book bad Therapy, Why

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Speaker 5: kids Aren't growing up With Jonathan Height's brilliant new book,

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Speaker 5: The Anxious Generation, How the Great Rewiring childhood is causing

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Speaker 5: an epidemic of mental illness, and it's all of a piece.

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Speaker 5: It's all just a constant focus on your own mental health.

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Speaker 5: It sounds revolutionary to say in the modern world, but

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Speaker 5: just just get stuff done, you'll be happier.

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Speaker 6: Yes, Katy, Well, no knock on on therapy, But I'm

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Speaker 6: thinking about.

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Speaker 1: People need to knock on therapy all day long.

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Speaker 6: Well, I and I am too. I went through it

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Speaker 6: and it's just not but it's not for me. There's

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Speaker 6: good therapy helps lots of people.

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Speaker 1: I know people have been helped, but most of it's

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Speaker 1: crap and a waste of money.

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Speaker 7: But I'm thinking about what she said there, and the

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Speaker 7: people that I know that are actively going to therapy

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Speaker 7: weekly are my friends that talk the most about their

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Speaker 7: problems all the time. And I wonder if there's like

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Speaker 7: an if it carries over, like once you open that threshold,

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Speaker 7: you just now you just talk about them.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting is like the knock on American culture back

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Speaker 1: in the day was nobody talked about their problems and

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Speaker 1: kept them inside, and that was supposedly awful, unhealthy. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it was maybe we just got it wrong with the

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Speaker 1: pendulum swinging too far the other direction, or maybe that

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Speaker 1: was the way people are kind of designed to deal

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Speaker 1: with them. You just try to put them out of

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Speaker 1: your mind and move on. I don't know, but the

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Speaker 1: focusing on it and talking about it all the time

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be working for people. It's a great.

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Speaker 5: Industry, yes, and sells a hell of a lot of pills.

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Speaker 5: If I wish I had one one thousandths of a

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Speaker 5: share of all the money that has been made on

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Speaker 5: questionable psychiatric pills. That's one of the uh one of

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Speaker 5: the failures of capitalism, I think, is the nexus between

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Speaker 5: private equity industry and medicine. It's really perverted the doctor

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Speaker 5: patient relationship in a lot of unhealthy ways.

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Speaker 1: But the talking therapy. You go in and so you

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Speaker 1: had a bad mom who treated you poorly, and you

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Speaker 1: go in and you talk about that every week for

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Speaker 1: decades in some cases. Yeah, I know lots of people

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Speaker 1: that have done that, and I just why is it

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Speaker 1: ever going to change?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I just I don't have.

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Speaker 5: All I have is my own experience and that of

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Speaker 5: some people I've known very well who've dealt with similar things.

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Speaker 5: But number one, I'll tell you from my experience depression

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Speaker 5: is entirely inward facing. If you can outward face and

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Speaker 5: interact and accomplish things and look at other people and

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Speaker 5: their needs and their challenges and their pain, that is

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Speaker 5: the best cure for depression in the world.

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Speaker 2: Getting out of your own head.

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Speaker 5: And the second thing that just occurred to me, And

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Speaker 5: this is an oversimplification, but you know what, Like I'm

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Speaker 5: always saying, the two things human beings do is underthink

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Speaker 5: and overthink. And I think this may be one of

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Speaker 5: those overthinking things in that you remember, we've talked about

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Speaker 5: what you do, that's your priorities. How you spend your time,

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Speaker 5: those are your priorities. I don't want you know any

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Speaker 5: blah blah blah no. What's really important to me is

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Speaker 5: blah blah blah no. The way you spend your time

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Speaker 5: and attention is what's important to you. And if you

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Speaker 5: spend all of your time and attention on your problems,

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Speaker 5: that is the that's the occupation of your life. And

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Speaker 5: I've got to believe that all of us have an identity.

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Speaker 5: I'm the whatever guy, I'm the athlete, I'm the good

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Speaker 5: looking woman, I'm the go go achiever here at the

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Speaker 5: car lot or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I'm the surly bald guy with RBF right exactly.

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Speaker 5: But if your identity becomes I'm the depressed, anxious person.

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Speaker 5: Everybody knows that about me. They're sympathetic towards me. I'm

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Speaker 5: taking a pill, Bubba. If that becomes your image, you

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Speaker 5: can't let your image go. You can't abandon yourself image.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a tough one, and I've known that. I

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Speaker 1: got to make sure that doesn't happen with my son

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Speaker 1: that just to gets so locked into that identity of

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Speaker 1: his various problems.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've known people whose identity was I was sexually abused,

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Speaker 1: and that was it fit into everything of the worldview.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. There's the Bromide axiom rule, whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: Focus on your problems and the problems grow. Focus on

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Speaker 1: the solution, and the solution grows. I've found that to

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Speaker 1: be pretty damn true.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, that's a good one.

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Speaker 5: So a quick excerpt from the book, as Shrier notes,

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Speaker 5: is helpful to remember that your feelings are at the

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Speaker 5: center of everything all the time.

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Speaker 2: Thing is new, it was not always.

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Speaker 5: Thus, she recalls two pieces of advice that parents of

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Speaker 5: gen xers and of earlier generations would prefer to their

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Speaker 5: children knock it off and shake it off. The first

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Speaker 5: didn't over it explain, it credited kids with a common sense,

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Speaker 5: or nudged them to develop rules, had exceptions and workarounds.

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Speaker 5: But knock it off single to parent's disinclination to become

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Speaker 5: entangled in them, and shake it off didn't solve the

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Speaker 5: worst injuries, but it did a hell of a job

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Speaker 5: playing triage nurse to kids minor heartaches and injuries, proving

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Speaker 5: to kids that the hurt, or fear or possibility of

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Speaker 5: failure need not overwhelm them. I like that, Hey, knock

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Speaker 5: it off, You'll be fine as a method of triage,

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Speaker 5: if the purse, if the kid made it clear, infinitely clear,

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Speaker 5: like convincingly clear, no I'm not okay. Well, that's when

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Speaker 5: you offer the treatment.

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Speaker 2: But if in the huge majority of times, the kid.

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Speaker 5: And then they're playing thirty seconds later, that's brilliant triage.

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Speaker 5: What a great way to put that.

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Speaker 6: Oh the amount of times I heard my dad say

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Speaker 6: walk it off, Kate, Yes, sir, I was kind of

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Speaker 6: I would flop every now and then. Paul Lebron on

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Speaker 6: the basketball court, he could tell when I was actually hurt,

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Speaker 6: and you gotta.

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Speaker 2: Throw your arms up.

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Speaker 5: Ah.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, the theatrics were there, just he wasn't buying it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: How about the old world's tiniest violin?

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Speaker 2: Do that he's mad?

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Speaker 6: That's a classic.

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Speaker 1: He plays that a lot too.

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Speaker 2: That's a classic. You know.

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Speaker 5: Part of it, I think, and you know me, I

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Speaker 5: believe that balance in all things. We need men and

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Speaker 5: women and compassion and order, and it's got to be

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Speaker 5: in the right mix. I just think we've become so

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Speaker 5: feminized as a society. The doting mom who falls to

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Speaker 5: her knees as the kid is skinned his knee.

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Speaker 2: You, oh, my honey, being my own own it's okay.

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Speaker 5: Oh, that's become like eighty percent of American life. And

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Speaker 5: the dad says that it'll be fine, or splash a

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Speaker 5: little water on it, go play, you'll be great. That

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Speaker 5: is now so completely out of fashion. We're making our

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Speaker 5: kids nuts. It's seeing the message you don't have to

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Speaker 5: be afraid, this will be fine.

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Speaker 2: That's great. That's a gift.

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Speaker 5: That's not that, And it's portrayed as like being cold

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Speaker 5: hearted me yeah, or mean or unsympathetic. No, that's a

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Speaker 5: gift you're giving the kid. Hey, you're afraid. I can

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Speaker 5: tell you don't have to be.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I've had the experience many times in my life with

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Speaker 1: my parents, with coaches, whatever, where some teachers something happened

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Speaker 1: and and basically they say I get over it or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then you just kind of think, well, I guess

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Speaker 1: nobody cares, so I guess I'll get over it now.

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Speaker 5: I remember the summer I was working on a farm

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Speaker 5: and I lost both my arms and the thresher r

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Speaker 5: and my dad yelled at me get back to work.

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Speaker 5: Must have been difficult, I pointed out, Then I have

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Speaker 5: no arms, and he listened, you're, oh, man.

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Speaker 8: True story is true story, pe teacher. So we're out

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Speaker 8: there running and some of us started complaining to him,

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Speaker 8: and you know, we're getting cramps, we're hurting, and he

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Speaker 8: has sick already, puffs the cigarette and goes, just keep running,

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Speaker 8: just keep running.

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Speaker 1: There you go, Huh, it's a different era, different.

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Speaker 2: Soaking down a long, long dart. Huh yeah, tells us

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Speaker 2: to keep on running.

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Speaker 8: Well, I guess that's it.