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Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go

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Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts, or click on

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Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm

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Speaker 1: John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

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Speaker 2: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers

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Speaker 2: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: And part of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive

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Speaker 3: our adversaries.

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Speaker 2: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you

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Speaker 2: may not have heard.

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Speaker 4: Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

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Speaker 2: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So today's guest

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Speaker 2: is Tamson Shaw. She's a professor of European and Mediterranean

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Speaker 2: Studies and Philosophy at NYU. She's written about psychology, Silicon

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Speaker 2: Valley and the effects of social media, the rise of

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Speaker 2: oligarchs overseas and at home, American intelligence, at ri Snowdmen,

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Speaker 2: much else often in The New York Review of Books

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Speaker 2: and elsewhere. She's now working on a book on our

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Speaker 2: susceptibility to influence operations than So welcome, Thank you, I

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Speaker 2: know you teach a course at NYU and psychological manipulation

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Speaker 2: in politics, including like Nazi propaganda and Stasi, etc. But

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Speaker 2: in it you talk about conspiracy theories and how they

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Speaker 2: might be changing with the Internet, and AI.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm very interested in the form that they take nowadays,

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Speaker 5: partly because everybody's so focused on disinformation as a national

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Speaker 5: security concern and a general political concern. But a lot

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Speaker 5: of the conspiracies and now conspiracy theories are just put

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Speaker 5: together with true facts and they leave the audience to

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Speaker 5: make the inferences, the causal inferences about what's going on.

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Speaker 5: So a good example would be the Loose Change documentary

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Speaker 5: about nine to eleven, where it just starts in with

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Speaker 5: reciting facts, actually starting with the Reichstag fire, going through

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Speaker 5: Roosevelt having known about Pearl Harbor. I'm not saying that

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Speaker 5: all of these facts are true, by the way, but

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Speaker 5: it's just resenting them as facts, and then everything up

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Speaker 5: through Vietnam and JFK of course to the present day.

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Speaker 5: So it just presents the sequence of events and it

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Speaker 5: doesn't tell you who the conspirators are or what the

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Speaker 5: conspirator is. It just leaves you to draw the inferences yourself,

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Speaker 5: and I think that's something people like doing because then

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Speaker 5: they feel as though they're discovering something if they put

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Speaker 5: it together for themselves. And that's I think something that

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Speaker 5: the Internet has really encouraged, because people used to get

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Speaker 5: information in some kind of critical context, like if you

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Speaker 5: wanted to find out what happened, you'd go to a

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Speaker 5: book or a newspaper or congressional papers, whatever it was.

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Speaker 5: But now on the Internet, you can just look up

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Speaker 5: facts in this very piecemeal way, join the dots yourself,

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Speaker 5: and it doesn't exist in any critical context at all,

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Speaker 5: so there aren't really any constraints on what people are

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Speaker 5: going to do with those facts. And I think it's

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Speaker 5: encouraged this way of putting something together yourself. That is

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Speaker 5: a very exciting narrative, and you're the hero in the narrative,

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Speaker 5: of course, because you're finding out about this big plot

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Speaker 5: that nobody else knows about. And I think organizations like

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Speaker 5: WikiLeaks encouraged that a bit with putting out, as they said,

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Speaker 5: raw information. Of course it was always very highly edited

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Speaker 5: in fact, but they're saying, look, we're just giving you

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Speaker 5: the information and you can put together yourself what's happening.

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Speaker 5: All of their audience. We're putting together the deep state

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Speaker 5: being in charge of everything.

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Speaker 3: We use the terms of conspiracy theory and conspiracy and

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Speaker 3: they mean different things, right, And you deal a lot

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Speaker 3: with philosophy, and like why is it that people want

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Speaker 3: to deal in conspiracies and conspiracy theories. And we're talking

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Speaker 3: about Steve Bannett, right, great conspiracy theorists, and he loves

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Speaker 3: the Knights Templar. Let's go back to the thirteen hundreds

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Speaker 3: with the Knights Templar. There's this powerful organization. They're rich,

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Speaker 3: they're actually the bankers of Europe. They bring in all

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Speaker 3: these this revolutionary new for those days banking banking procedures,

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Speaker 3: and in the end, the King of France accuses them

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Speaker 3: of heresy and of worshiping a goat headed figure called Baffamet,

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Speaker 3: and he burns them at the stake. But this is

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Speaker 3: this grand conspiracy that's been pushed by the King of France.

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Speaker 4: But in the end, of course, he takes their money.

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Speaker 3: And the whole point of this is that the King

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Speaker 3: of France then seizes all the assets that they have,

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Speaker 3: and the King of France is in a dire financial situation.

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Speaker 3: So there was a real set of conspiracy theories pushed

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Speaker 3: out to the larger population. There are a lot of

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Speaker 3: facts involved in this and that, and yet in the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, it was a conspiracy. To push

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Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory is that it was pretty clear that

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Speaker 3: the Knights Templar were not worshiping a goat headed figure,

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Speaker 3: and we could play that all the way to today.

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Speaker 3: So when people are looking at their phones, sitting on

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Speaker 3: the toilet and coming up with connecting these facts, oftentimes

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Speaker 3: they're led in a certain direction. So I was wondering

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Speaker 3: returning Bick to this century, his things changed all that

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Speaker 3: much with people being directed in certain ways.

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Speaker 5: No, I think people are directed. Even in these fact listing,

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Speaker 5: as I call them, conspiracy theories, they're still selecting the

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Speaker 5: facts carefully to lead people in a particular direction. So

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Speaker 5: I think they always tend to be led top down.

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Speaker 5: Maybe QAnon involved in a slightly more organic way because

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Speaker 5: it originated as LARPing or live action roleplay on four Chan,

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Speaker 5: but then there's been a lot of directing it for

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Speaker 5: a particular political agenda, of course.

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Speaker 2: So yes, suchly what you're saying is it used to

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Speaker 2: be conspiracy theorists had to come up with sort of

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Speaker 2: complex elaborations, right, whatever, Nazi propaganda about the Jews and

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Speaker 2: things like that. But now you're saying, essentially because of

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Speaker 2: the Internet really and Twitter and all these other social

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Speaker 2: media things, is you don't need to really fabricate anything sophisticated.

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Speaker 2: You can just do your own research, put a few

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Speaker 2: facts together, and the Internet helps all those things connect.

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Speaker 2: And then what comes out of there is you get

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Speaker 2: the thrill of discovery of thinking you're putting together some

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Speaker 2: really cool and complex thing that nobody knows about. It

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Speaker 2: does seem to me if that's true, that means that

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Speaker 2: there's more and more conspiracy theories making their way to

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Speaker 2: the Internet, and it seems like AI would then suck

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Speaker 2: that in and turbocharge the process.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you worry about it.

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Speaker 5: I do worry about that, not because I think AI

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Speaker 5: developed conspiracy theories. If you actually ask it to, it's

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Speaker 5: very old school. So I asked for a conspiracy theory

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Speaker 5: showing that Frank Sinatra killed JFK, for instance, and it

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Speaker 5: gives you a whole lot of complex motives and relationships

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Speaker 5: between people that are really dispensable for today's conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 5: You don't need them. What you need to do is

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Speaker 5: just list some pertinent backs and then ply a causal

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Speaker 5: relationship between them, and that's very easy to do now

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Speaker 5: with facts on the end, and the way that AI

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Speaker 5: generates knowledge for people, Again, if they ask it a question,

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Speaker 5: it will give them a factual answer, but the one

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Speaker 5: that isn't part of any critical context unless they look

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Speaker 5: at the sources. And then the sources are often very

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Speaker 5: bad because they have to be ones that are just

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Speaker 5: most appropriate for these large language models to use. And

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Speaker 5: I've found that if it's anything to do with SAJFK,

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Speaker 5: they go straight for the conspiracy theory ones, and of

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Speaker 5: course there's way more of that content out there for

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Speaker 5: them to use. And there's going to be this recursive

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Speaker 5: problem where people rely on the lms to get information

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Speaker 5: and then they use that information in what they write,

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Speaker 5: and then that's all such back up into the lms,

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Speaker 5: and it's so much harder to get the truth out

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Speaker 5: there and to research and find out the truth that

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Speaker 5: it just seems clear to me that we're going to

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Speaker 5: end up with endless nonsense and people having very little

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Speaker 5: capacity to differentiate between what's true and what's not.

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Speaker 3: Before the advent of the Internet, by and large, we

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Speaker 3: would look to experts for facts, right, and what a

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Speaker 3: fact is the very definition of the word. I've spent

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Speaker 3: three decades as John did in CIA. What do I

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Speaker 3: know about making vaccines? I'm not even sure what RNA

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Speaker 3: enabled venis. I don't even have the terminology for it.

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Speaker 3: And I looked to the FDA, and I look to

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Speaker 3: medical experts, right, And yet I don't know these things right.

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Speaker 3: And so it seems before you studied the third rite,

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Speaker 3: and Hitler could claim that, oh, we were we were

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Speaker 3: attacked by the Soviet Union. We had no choice but

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Speaker 3: to invade poll the polls were And yet even he

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Speaker 3: had to sort of, you know, he had to set

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Speaker 3: up a fake attack, and so to present that, are

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Speaker 3: we losing the ability to have rational discourse if we

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Speaker 3: can make up our own facts and that there are

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Speaker 3: no referees? And I'm just thinking RFK Junior, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you have the entire medical basically the entire medical community

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Speaker 3: it saying he and him saying, I've got a brain worm.

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Speaker 3: But it's because it's got the fact, and I have

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Speaker 3: the power.

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Speaker 5: People can't invent facts, because facts just exist in the world,

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Speaker 5: but people can invent claims about facts, and a lot

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Speaker 5: of them are going to be false. Actually discovering the

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Speaker 5: fact is relatively difficult. Making them up is very easy.

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Speaker 5: And that's why with the immediacy of communication on the Internet,

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Speaker 5: it's just bound to be the case that you drown

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Speaker 5: out the true facts with the nonsense unless you have,

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Speaker 5: as you say, gatekeepers or expertise. And people believe in

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Speaker 5: that lesson less partly for it does a good motivation,

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Speaker 5: which is that people want to know not just what

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Speaker 5: the facts are, but what somebody's justifications are for saying

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Speaker 5: those are the facts. So they want to go through

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Speaker 5: the whole process themselves and find out where this comes from.

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Speaker 5: But the Internet has encouraged these forms of interaction that

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Speaker 5: are very fast, and they don't actually give people time

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Speaker 5: to do that research and find out whether a claim

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Speaker 5: is justified.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it is a fact that forty seven

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Speaker 3: point three percent of all statistics are made up on

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Speaker 3: the spot.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've heard.

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Speaker 2: So when you work with a class like this and

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Speaker 2: you talk about these things AI and Silicon Valley and

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Speaker 2: what are the students take out of it? What is

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Speaker 2: it that surprises them? Is this generation different in how

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Speaker 2: they process these things?

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Speaker 5: And you, yeah, sometimes they surprise me, because they so

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Speaker 5: much more online than people of my generation that they

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Speaker 5: know a huge amount of this stuff. One of them

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Speaker 5: was just telling me this week about white nationalists propaganda

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Speaker 5: on I think it's which doesn't say anything explicit about

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Speaker 5: white nationalism. It just shows you these, for instance, streets

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Speaker 5: from the nineteen fifties full of white people who are

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Speaker 5: nicely indirect or shopping or whatever it is, and there's

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Speaker 5: no explicit message. But the people who subscribe to that

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Speaker 5: content are going to understand what the message is supposed

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Speaker 5: to be, and other people are going to get sucked

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Speaker 5: and just out of curiosity.

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Speaker 3: Very often, it seems to me. I also studied the

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Speaker 3: rise of fascism in Germany and other places, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of it was around the basic myths that people believed.

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Speaker 3: Right in Germany, it was the time of the time

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Speaker 3: of past greatness, the folk of Andero and the Germanic

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Speaker 3: people's coming in, and the whole sense not so much

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Speaker 3: racial purity, but the sense of pride in German nationalism

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Speaker 3: comes much earlier the vanderfugel and where people were playing

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Speaker 3: folk music, singing with guitars as they wandered through the

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Speaker 3: streets of Germany, and then this was taken in a

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Speaker 3: different direction by the Nazis, and white nationals today are

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Speaker 3: also doing this. It's a myth that in the nineteen

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Speaker 3: fifties did everybody was like leave it to Beaver, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you were African American that the United

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Speaker 3: States was not that all great in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 3: or there was polio in the nineteen fifties, and there

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Speaker 3: were higher instances of domestic abuse.

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Speaker 5: So I'm very interested, as you say, in the example

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Speaker 5: of the Nazis, because they really exploited these existing myths

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Speaker 5: in German culture. I was playing my students a bit

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Speaker 5: of Wagner to show them how powerful this was. Of course,

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Speaker 5: Hitler was obsessed with Wagner, and I don't think you

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Speaker 5: can understand the power of somebody like Hitler without seeing

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Speaker 5: how this myth of his charisma developed. And that's because

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Speaker 5: people already had this really strong desire for a leader

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Speaker 5: that was part of the this cult of Germany being

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Speaker 5: in need of salvation, and people were looking for some

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Speaker 5: kind of strong, charismatic leader. In fact, Hitler was early on,

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Speaker 5: and then it only gradually became clear to everybody that

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Speaker 5: it should be him. People like Goebbels were looking for

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Speaker 5: this savior everywhere and just describing it in very pseudo

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Speaker 5: religious terms. So there's I guess, there's the mythic content,

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Speaker 5: which refers to the past, and all forms of nationalism

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Speaker 5: are mythic in the sense that they create this imaginary past.

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Speaker 5: And then there's what I would call fantasy, which is

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Speaker 5: the idea that's somehow infusing the present, and something like

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Speaker 5: national socialism contains an enormous element of fantasy and just

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Speaker 5: fantastical beliefs.

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Speaker 3: I just want to chip in and say it wasn't

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Speaker 3: just that the Nazis are the easiest, because yeah, we've

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Speaker 3: got movies about it, but this was also the same

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Speaker 3: tendencies were present in Japan. You know that they are

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Speaker 3: the chosen race. Their emperor was descended from the Sun

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Speaker 3: God himself, and Mussolini going back to the Roman Empire,

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Speaker 3: and the Hungaris going back to the time of the

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Speaker 3: mod Hoards coming in. So this was this is really

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Speaker 3: something that was widespread, This looking back to the glories

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Speaker 3: of the past, looking back for a leader who can

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Speaker 3: take us back there, and then matching that with intolerance

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Speaker 3: of others, and most important, most importantly, but also vital

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Speaker 3: to this was you have to blame someone for why

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Speaker 3: we're not there.

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Speaker 5: You see this playing out in Britain now, because of

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Speaker 5: course the English especially have been really good at this

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Speaker 5: myth making. They've co opted a lot of artists and

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Speaker 5: musicians and we all see land of hope and glory

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Speaker 5: at the prongs and the kind of imperial patriotism that existed.

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Speaker 5: I'm reluctant to call it nationalism because we have English

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Speaker 5: and Scottish and Welsh nationalisms that are separate from that

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Speaker 5: patriotism about Britain and about the Empire. So Britain I

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Speaker 5: think developed and the Victorian times, especially the height of

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Speaker 5: the Victorian Empire.

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Speaker 6: A huge amount of mythology around this, and a lot

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Speaker 6: of it was just very flimsy. Of course, it's based

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Speaker 6: on untruth or just the pseudo religious stuff. And now

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Speaker 6: Britain is no longer a great power and people are

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Speaker 6: I don't think exactly resentful of that, but there's a

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Speaker 6: kind of nostalgia for the Britain that was a great power,

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Speaker 6: and people like Nigel Farage and Reform UK are obviously

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Speaker 6: playing on that and they're identifying the enemy, which of

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Speaker 6: course is immigrants and the immigrants is somehow polluting that

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Speaker 6: idea of Britain, or sometimes it's that idea of Englishness.

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Speaker 6: The conservative philosopher Roger Scrutens, who a lot of these

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Speaker 6: guys liked, wrote a lot about Englishness, and it's very

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Speaker 6: much this myth of the village green and playing cricket

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Speaker 6: and tea and waving the flag. And it's a very

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Speaker 6: kind of cliched Victorian image.

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Speaker 2: So we're doing the same thing. Maga is looking back

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Speaker 2: at a mythic past. These immigrants are some sort of enemy,

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Speaker 2: when it's in fact we're all immigrants. I wondered when

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Speaker 2: you talk about these things, utiple, are leaders knowingly taking

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Speaker 2: advantage of this or is this something that's just deep

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Speaker 2: in human beings and they just they want to grasp

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Speaker 2: for something to make themselves feel better about themselves, and

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Speaker 2: that's about others and about sort of power against their

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Speaker 2: enemies in the next state over.

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Speaker 5: People will always say it's something deep in human beings

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Speaker 5: and they're just tribal. But if you try to give

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Speaker 5: explanations in any particular case, you find that nationalism especially

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Speaker 5: hasn't always existed as a form of belonging. It was invented.

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Speaker 5: I don't want to always go back to the fascists

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Speaker 5: because it's such a cliche. But Hitler wanted to create

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Speaker 5: this idea of populist leadership where he and the people

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Speaker 5: were won. And he says in his nineteen thirty or

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Speaker 5: speech at the Nuremberg Rally that it's not the state

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Speaker 5: ruling the people, but the people in the state are

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Speaker 5: the same thing, and everybody has to believe in this WI,

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Speaker 5: so that they're part of this we with the leader.

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Speaker 5: And the way that you can most easily get that

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Speaker 5: isn't by making everyone to subscribe to some common values

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Speaker 5: or set of common beliefs. It's just by having a

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Speaker 5: common enemy. You just have them and us, and that's

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Speaker 5: the easiest way to do it. And it's clearly what

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Speaker 5: people are doing now on the populist ride.

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Speaker 4: The we changes the we.

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Speaker 3: During the Third Reich, just running with this was the

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Speaker 3: Germanic people and they would test bloodlines going to join

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Speaker 3: the SS. You had to go back generations to make

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Speaker 3: sure there was no Jewish or French or Italian blooding,

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Speaker 3: and the United States were no different. So there's My

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Speaker 3: favorite political party was the No Nothing. So the eighteen

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Speaker 3: fifties right, and they were built on a conspiracy theory

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Speaker 3: that the Irish in the Germans, the Catholics were coming in,

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Speaker 3: the Papists were coming in to destroy their Protestant Republic

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Speaker 3: by being there. And yet today Irish and the descendants

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Speaker 3: of those Irish and Catholics who were supposedly a fifth

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Speaker 3: column to destroy the republic are now themselves embracing conspiracy

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Speaker 3: theories about Central Americans coming in right, fellow Roman Catholics

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Speaker 3: as the as the other. And then we had in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties we had the KKK, where like President

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Speaker 3: of the United States was in the KKK. And the

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Speaker 3: only explanation I could come up with, I think there

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Speaker 3: is it's being manipulated by I know this sounds conspiratorial,

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Speaker 3: but it's being manipulated by people with power.

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Speaker 4: Right, Who is us? Who were they?

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Speaker 3: And how do I You may actually believe it in

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Speaker 3: this there I think Steven Miller probably does, right, But

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Speaker 3: who was us and who is they?

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Speaker 5: It's always something that's constructed. So Irish people weren't originally

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Speaker 5: considered to be white, and if you look at what

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Speaker 5: white means in America, there are a lot of people

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Speaker 5: who in fact, don't really know whether they count as

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Speaker 5: part of this white nation that the white nationalists are

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Speaker 5: talking about. It's a big gray area because these terms

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Speaker 5: are just invented and they don't necessarily have anything to

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Speaker 5: do with any physically existing reality, whether it's genetic or

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Speaker 5: skin color or whatever it is. And that's I think

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Speaker 5: always the case that this exclusion takes place, and it's

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Speaker 5: people in power defining categories in order to do that,

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Speaker 5: and then other people who want to be part of

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Speaker 5: the inn group, of course, willingly subscribe to it, so

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Speaker 5: it takes on a power of its own.

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Speaker 3: I believe it's in the nineteen twenties, the Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: had to decide whether Armenians were white. Yes, and it's

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Speaker 3: actually a court case that they came up, and then

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Speaker 3: they had to just figure out whether Punjabis are white.

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Speaker 3: And they're like, okay, Armenians are white because they're Christians.

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Speaker 3: But Punjabis from northern India who may have like green

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Speaker 3: or blue eyes, yeah, they're not even if they're Christians.

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Speaker 5: So it's so interesting to use that example because my

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Speaker 5: daughter's father is Armenian and she considers herself Armenian, and

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Speaker 5: she's very recently been coming and asking me, am I

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Speaker 5: White because of content she's seeing online where people are

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Speaker 5: saying Armenians are Middle Eastern or Armenians are Asian, and

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Speaker 5: it's an area of confusion. And mostly what people in

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Speaker 5: America know about Armenians comes from the Kardashians. And I

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Speaker 5: don't think that's a share share share ye yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 5: and share.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Let's turn to some of the tools, because

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Speaker 2: you write a lot about Silicon Valley and a lot

364
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Speaker 2: of the tools that we're using now. You write about

365
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Speaker 2: the sort of toxic role of Facebook, WhatsApp, YouTube, how

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Speaker 2: they help in some ways are rewiring our minds. But

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Speaker 2: I know you just did a book review of someone

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times and talked about how some

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Speaker 2: people are trying to look at you know, yet not

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Speaker 2: everybody gets sucked in. So what is it about the

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Speaker 2: mind's wiring that protects some and then brings in others?

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Speaker 5: I wish I knew the answer to that. Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 5: it's also designed to exploit certain people. That the divisiveness,

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Speaker 5: the trolls and the bots that are responsible for it,

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Speaker 5: they know what they're doing. The people that the uniquit Yeah,

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Speaker 5: people think that information has become more democratic because we

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Speaker 5: have the Internet and we have AI and we can

378
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Speaker 5: consult these llms. We just have to remember that all

379
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Speaker 5: of those companies are owned by these oligarchs essentially or

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00:21:49,584 --> 00:21:53,344
Speaker 5: polygarch and they have their own agendas. They're all far right,

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Speaker 5: a lot of them are pushing white nationalism, and they

382
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Speaker 5: set the algorithm to tell people what they want to

383
00:22:00,104 --> 00:22:03,304
Speaker 5: tell them. So if you look up on chat GPT,

384
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Speaker 5: for instance, describe Ukraine to me, it will give you

385
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Speaker 5: a description. And then if you say DISCRIPSI Ukraine and

386
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Speaker 5: Ukraine in the style of RT, the Russian Propaganda channel

387
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Speaker 5: will give you a completely different description, just selecting the

388
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Speaker 5: backs differently, creating a different narrative. And you realize whatever

389
00:22:23,744 --> 00:22:27,144
Speaker 5: the default setting is for the algorithm is set by

390
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Speaker 5: these guys like Musk and Teal and their friends, who

391
00:22:31,224 --> 00:22:36,024
Speaker 5: all share a very particular political agenda. And that's not

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Speaker 5: something democratic. It's everybody being manipulated by the same group

393
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Speaker 5: of people. Again, this sounds like a conspiracy.

394
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Speaker 4: Tip well, it.

395
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Speaker 3: Sounds like a conspiracy, but it's one that I'm open to.

396
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Speaker 3: Who does control the algorithm? John and I coming out

397
00:22:50,544 --> 00:22:53,944
Speaker 3: of CIA, the algorithms in Russia are controlled by the

398
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Speaker 3: state who what you get to read and what is

399
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Speaker 3: affect is controlled by the state, And increasingly in the US,

400
00:23:00,224 --> 00:23:04,664
Speaker 3: it is a fact that it the algorithms by which

401
00:23:04,704 --> 00:23:08,144
Speaker 3: they were strongly influenced, are controlled by a small cabal

402
00:23:08,224 --> 00:23:12,864
Speaker 3: of politically influential people who have who want to I

403
00:23:12,904 --> 00:23:15,824
Speaker 3: don't get it, want to make yet another billion dollars

404
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Speaker 3: or want yet more power.

405
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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I don't know how many.

406
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Speaker 5: Well you have to understand the fantasies to understand him

407
00:23:22,944 --> 00:23:28,584
Speaker 5: and his followers. These people are just such florid fantasists.

408
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Speaker 7: They were all gamers, all gamers, Yeah, and they all

409
00:23:33,024 --> 00:23:36,864
Speaker 7: think that they're going to pioneer a life on other planets,

410
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Speaker 7: or that they're going to discover how we can all

411
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Speaker 7: live forever.

412
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Speaker 5: They're not interested in real world problems. They just have

413
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Speaker 5: this fantastical set of beliefs and ambitions. That's partly what's

414
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Speaker 5: so worrying about having them be in con charge, because

415
00:23:52,424 --> 00:23:56,664
Speaker 5: in charge, because they're actually very detached from reality. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: you mentioned putin having to control the media, including the

417
00:24:00,824 --> 00:24:05,424
Speaker 5: internet there. I mean, if anybody wants to establish themselves

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00:24:05,544 --> 00:24:08,464
Speaker 5: as a dictator in the long term. Now they're going

419
00:24:08,544 --> 00:24:11,064
Speaker 5: to have to bring those oligogs to heal and just

420
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Speaker 5: the way that Putin did so, I don't know why

421
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Speaker 5: those guys would feel so comfortable recommending an authoritarian form

422
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Speaker 5: of government when they would probably be what's most standing

423
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Speaker 5: in the way of that. Ultimately, a lot of people

424
00:24:25,864 --> 00:24:28,144
Speaker 5: were saying this about Elon Musk a few months ago.

425
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Speaker 2: But when I grew up, the Republican Party was quote

426
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Speaker 2: the party of capitalism, But now it seems more and

427
00:24:32,664 --> 00:24:34,784
Speaker 2: more like the party of state monopoly. Like it's yeah,

428
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Speaker 2: we've seen in Russia. It's more like state capitalism or

429
00:24:37,584 --> 00:24:41,344
Speaker 2: economic nationalism. And you've written about Bannon and some of

430
00:24:41,344 --> 00:24:44,824
Speaker 2: these social media folks. How do we get here? How

431
00:24:44,864 --> 00:24:47,424
Speaker 2: did a party that thought it believed in one thing

432
00:24:47,784 --> 00:24:49,744
Speaker 2: turn itself into believing something else?

433
00:24:49,904 --> 00:24:53,704
Speaker 5: Think about the evolution of Silicon Valley and the establishment

434
00:24:53,824 --> 00:24:58,384
Speaker 5: of those huge monopolies, not really in terms of one

435
00:24:58,464 --> 00:25:01,824
Speaker 5: party or another, because of course it was under Clinton

436
00:25:01,904 --> 00:25:04,864
Speaker 5: that you had all of this deregulation. Bob Ruman and

437
00:25:04,944 --> 00:25:08,384
Speaker 5: Larry Summerson, all of those people, and it was Clinton

438
00:25:08,464 --> 00:25:13,304
Speaker 5: that wanted to privatize these industries that were essential to

439
00:25:13,544 --> 00:25:17,344
Speaker 5: national security, as a way of fighting terrorism. I mean,

440
00:25:17,344 --> 00:25:20,224
Speaker 5: already in nineteen ninety eight, that's what Clinton was saying

441
00:25:20,224 --> 00:25:23,664
Speaker 5: we needed to do. And then, of course, the Silicon

442
00:25:23,744 --> 00:25:28,264
Speaker 5: Valley economy becomes established in a context where we need

443
00:25:28,304 --> 00:25:32,424
Speaker 5: to develop these technologies for the government and harness our

444
00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:36,864
Speaker 5: innovation for those ends, for national security ends. But you're

445
00:25:37,384 --> 00:25:41,144
Speaker 5: letting the private companies keep all the profits, even though

446
00:25:41,184 --> 00:25:45,824
Speaker 5: they're heavily subsidized with government funds. And you're allowing these

447
00:25:45,864 --> 00:25:49,904
Speaker 5: monopolies to develop, and because the government very quickly becomes

448
00:25:49,944 --> 00:25:53,824
Speaker 5: dependent on them. When they update their software, everybody has

449
00:25:53,864 --> 00:25:56,544
Speaker 5: to update with them, and they're competing with China, of

450
00:25:56,544 --> 00:25:59,864
Speaker 5: course in a commercial marketplace, and that has a lot

451
00:25:59,864 --> 00:26:03,744
Speaker 5: of ramifications for government. So in the end, you would

452
00:26:03,824 --> 00:26:07,424
Speaker 5: think government would want to align their interests much more

453
00:26:07,864 --> 00:26:11,944
Speaker 5: closely with the interests of the Silicon Valley.

454
00:26:11,744 --> 00:26:14,424
Speaker 2: Oligogus, because it is true when Jerry and I started,

455
00:26:14,624 --> 00:26:17,224
Speaker 2: we didn't have we weren't tied to these companies to

456
00:26:17,264 --> 00:26:19,544
Speaker 2: the same extent. We often created our own technology that

457
00:26:19,584 --> 00:26:24,584
Speaker 2: eventually made its way into companies in the market. So

458
00:26:24,624 --> 00:26:27,704
Speaker 2: how did you get interested in that? And then what

459
00:26:27,864 --> 00:26:30,064
Speaker 2: is your sense of the intelligence community as you look

460
00:26:30,104 --> 00:26:30,704
Speaker 2: at it now.

461
00:26:30,904 --> 00:26:33,584
Speaker 5: I was always interested in Snowden, actually as soon as

462
00:26:33,584 --> 00:26:36,304
Speaker 5: that movie came out, because I just had a deep

463
00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:39,864
Speaker 5: distrust of the way they presented the information in the movie,

464
00:26:39,944 --> 00:26:43,944
Speaker 5: Laura Patress and Glenn Greenwald, and it was so much

465
00:26:44,104 --> 00:26:47,824
Speaker 5: part of this gaming fantasy, which is a character just

466
00:26:47,904 --> 00:26:51,424
Speaker 5: like Edward Snowden being the lone hero battling these great

467
00:26:51,504 --> 00:26:55,464
Speaker 5: powers and leaking information. Glenn Greenwold, I guess, started out

468
00:26:55,504 --> 00:26:58,064
Speaker 5: as a lawyer defending people on the far right, and

469
00:26:58,104 --> 00:27:01,904
Speaker 5: here they were being celebrated by the left as these

470
00:27:02,344 --> 00:27:07,304
Speaker 5: great heroes, and I was just instinctively suspicious of that.

471
00:27:07,424 --> 00:27:09,504
Speaker 2: The hero fantasy is I think a big problem for

472
00:27:09,664 --> 00:27:11,904
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know I'm oversimplifying here, but even

473
00:27:11,944 --> 00:27:14,304
Speaker 2: our gun culture, I think there's this view that I

474
00:27:14,424 --> 00:27:17,064
Speaker 2: watch these movies. It's all about heroes and defending yourself

475
00:27:17,064 --> 00:27:18,904
Speaker 2: and if I have these guns and they're coming after me,

476
00:27:19,264 --> 00:27:21,224
Speaker 2: I can take on the state and all these I

477
00:27:21,304 --> 00:27:24,344
Speaker 2: just think people love being the hero of their own story.

478
00:27:24,424 --> 00:27:28,504
Speaker 2: It's dangerous actually, because in real life individuals can't take

479
00:27:28,544 --> 00:27:31,744
Speaker 2: on the state like they think they Yeah.

480
00:27:31,224 --> 00:27:34,104
Speaker 5: And you ask what I think about the intelligence services, Now,

481
00:27:34,464 --> 00:27:38,344
Speaker 5: I do worry about the revolving door with the private companies,

482
00:27:38,704 --> 00:27:42,544
Speaker 5: just because people can go they can get government positions

483
00:27:42,584 --> 00:27:46,184
Speaker 5: for the training and then take that to a private

484
00:27:46,224 --> 00:27:49,024
Speaker 5: company run by one of these oligogs. And of course

485
00:27:49,024 --> 00:27:52,104
Speaker 5: that happens all the time, and it happens with most

486
00:27:52,104 --> 00:27:54,424
Speaker 5: sad as well, especially where they've got a really strong

487
00:27:54,504 --> 00:27:57,944
Speaker 5: tech sept. That there's always been this interaction of the two,

488
00:27:58,344 --> 00:28:01,904
Speaker 5: but that is going to increasingly mean that there are

489
00:28:01,984 --> 00:28:07,384
Speaker 5: these big financial motivations and maybe also ideological motivations for

490
00:28:07,504 --> 00:28:12,184
Speaker 5: people when they're in government. That will mean a decline

491
00:28:12,224 --> 00:28:15,624
Speaker 5: in the sense of mission that probably your generation had.

492
00:28:16,024 --> 00:28:17,664
Speaker 5: So that's something that I worry about.

493
00:28:17,864 --> 00:28:22,624
Speaker 3: The real danger is XCIA guys who start up podcasts

494
00:28:22,704 --> 00:28:24,304
Speaker 3: to like manipulate people.

495
00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:26,984
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's there are a few XCIA people

496
00:28:27,024 --> 00:28:29,264
Speaker 2: have podcasts who are lying about.

497
00:28:28,984 --> 00:28:30,104
Speaker 4: Stuff like us unlike US.

498
00:28:30,104 --> 00:28:32,304
Speaker 2: Oh no, there's good ones. But there's also people who

499
00:28:32,384 --> 00:28:35,184
Speaker 2: have much bigger followings than we do. It's true, essentially

500
00:28:35,544 --> 00:28:38,424
Speaker 2: pretending that they were these superheroes when they say when

501
00:28:38,424 --> 00:28:42,224
Speaker 2: they were nobody's yeah, like people follow that stuff and

502
00:28:42,224 --> 00:28:42,944
Speaker 2: they're full of shit.

503
00:28:43,064 --> 00:28:45,384
Speaker 5: Frankly, I know it's interesting you talk about the death

504
00:28:45,384 --> 00:28:48,184
Speaker 5: of expertise. But there are all these people who are

505
00:28:48,904 --> 00:28:51,864
Speaker 5: self appointed experts that have huge followings.

506
00:28:52,304 --> 00:28:56,624
Speaker 3: So expertise arguably is what makes the human race function.

507
00:28:56,824 --> 00:28:57,024
Speaker 4: Right.

508
00:28:57,104 --> 00:29:00,064
Speaker 3: We can't all we can't all do everything. I don't

509
00:29:00,104 --> 00:29:02,664
Speaker 3: know how to make a computer, and the parts come

510
00:29:03,104 --> 00:29:04,024
Speaker 3: from all over the world.

511
00:29:04,104 --> 00:29:05,424
Speaker 4: I mean, we have to specialize.

512
00:29:05,464 --> 00:29:09,944
Speaker 5: And it's also ironic because knowledge has become more more

513
00:29:09,984 --> 00:29:16,544
Speaker 5: specialized with scientific advances and engineering advances, and people used

514
00:29:16,544 --> 00:29:19,064
Speaker 5: to be able to repare their cars. They can't repare

515
00:29:19,104 --> 00:29:22,944
Speaker 5: their own computers the same way as the military could

516
00:29:23,664 --> 00:29:26,824
Speaker 5: their planes, and now they can't prepare their software. The

517
00:29:26,944 --> 00:29:31,984
Speaker 5: Soviets in general really hampered science there where they had

518
00:29:32,144 --> 00:29:36,104
Speaker 5: many great scientists, but they hampered what they could do

519
00:29:36,304 --> 00:29:40,184
Speaker 5: just because they were so ideological that they had to

520
00:29:40,264 --> 00:29:44,104
Speaker 5: censor anybody or get rid of anybody who wasn't ideologically

521
00:29:44,184 --> 00:29:46,624
Speaker 5: aligned with them. And once you do that and you

522
00:29:46,664 --> 00:29:50,144
Speaker 5: can't have open scientific debate, then you can't have the

523
00:29:50,184 --> 00:29:54,704
Speaker 5: cultivation of that independent expertise, and you really need it

524
00:29:54,744 --> 00:29:57,624
Speaker 5: to have any meaningful scientific progress.

525
00:29:57,944 --> 00:30:03,184
Speaker 2: We see very senior people, politicians, congressmen, people you associated

526
00:30:03,184 --> 00:30:05,504
Speaker 2: with government, who if we asked them a question about

527
00:30:05,544 --> 00:30:07,984
Speaker 2: something might be very strong opinion on what they believe

528
00:30:07,984 --> 00:30:10,144
Speaker 2: based on their experience. Then if present Trump says the

529
00:30:10,144 --> 00:30:12,864
Speaker 2: opposite is true, they just immediately change and say they

530
00:30:12,944 --> 00:30:13,984
Speaker 2: say that's the right thing.

531
00:30:14,104 --> 00:30:17,064
Speaker 5: And also do they really believe it. I'm assuming that

532
00:30:17,184 --> 00:30:19,504
Speaker 5: if they change their view that quickly, they're just going

533
00:30:19,544 --> 00:30:23,344
Speaker 5: along with something and don't really care what they believe.

534
00:30:23,544 --> 00:30:25,984
Speaker 5: So in the nineties, I guess it was no. The

535
00:30:26,024 --> 00:30:29,784
Speaker 5: two thousands, a philosopher at Princeton called Harry Frankfurt wrote

536
00:30:29,784 --> 00:30:32,824
Speaker 5: a book called On Bullshit. It was about this phenomenon

537
00:30:32,864 --> 00:30:36,064
Speaker 5: where people just don't really care what's true and what's not,

538
00:30:36,624 --> 00:30:39,584
Speaker 5: and so they'll say anything regardless. So they're not lying

539
00:30:39,824 --> 00:30:42,304
Speaker 5: and they're not being hypocritical, they just don't really care.

540
00:30:42,344 --> 00:30:46,464
Speaker 3: In US, where myth controls fact, you get to things

541
00:30:46,544 --> 00:30:50,064
Speaker 3: like if you don't like the labor statistics, fire the

542
00:30:50,104 --> 00:30:52,664
Speaker 3: head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And then the

543
00:30:52,664 --> 00:30:55,384
Speaker 3: same with climate change. If you don't like climate change,

544
00:30:55,584 --> 00:30:59,344
Speaker 3: you know, stop stop acquiring data to support or not

545
00:30:59,384 --> 00:31:03,584
Speaker 3: support it, right, just defund defund it. And then basically,

546
00:31:03,624 --> 00:31:05,184
Speaker 3: my myth is bigger than your myth.

547
00:31:05,384 --> 00:31:08,664
Speaker 2: So get back to intelligence. Are there questions that you'd

548
00:31:08,664 --> 00:31:10,504
Speaker 2: like to talk to us about well, because a lot

549
00:31:10,584 --> 00:31:12,904
Speaker 2: of bad things have happened in the intelligence world. Mostly

550
00:31:12,944 --> 00:31:15,584
Speaker 2: they're Jerry's fault, and I'm willing to talk about them openly. Yeah.

551
00:31:15,624 --> 00:31:18,344
Speaker 5: No, I've got so many questions because you guys devise

552
00:31:18,464 --> 00:31:21,624
Speaker 5: conspiracy theory, so of course I want to know how

553
00:31:21,664 --> 00:31:22,264
Speaker 5: you did it.

554
00:31:22,464 --> 00:31:25,064
Speaker 3: If you're going to make a conspiracy, Let's just pretend

555
00:31:25,464 --> 00:31:28,584
Speaker 3: the conspiracy is you want to bump into a North

556
00:31:28,664 --> 00:31:29,744
Speaker 3: Korean scientist.

557
00:31:29,864 --> 00:31:32,064
Speaker 4: Right, you can't walk over to him and.

558
00:31:32,024 --> 00:31:35,424
Speaker 3: Say, Hi, I'm with the CIA, I'd like to talk

559
00:31:35,504 --> 00:31:39,024
Speaker 3: to you. You have to engineer a set of circumstances

560
00:31:39,064 --> 00:31:42,624
Speaker 3: that will allow that to happen. So the conspiracy is

561
00:31:42,664 --> 00:31:47,224
Speaker 3: something that is small and manageable, and even then doesn't

562
00:31:47,264 --> 00:31:50,544
Speaker 3: always stand up to deep scrutiny, just enough to get

563
00:31:50,584 --> 00:31:51,464
Speaker 3: you in the doorle So.

564
00:31:51,464 --> 00:31:54,824
Speaker 2: You might pretend to be a Malaysian businessman who meets

565
00:31:54,824 --> 00:31:57,944
Speaker 2: this person when they're traveling and develops some sort of

566
00:31:57,944 --> 00:32:00,384
Speaker 2: relationship and then turns them over to someone else who

567
00:32:00,464 --> 00:32:02,664
Speaker 2: might have a business interest in them. It's also a cipra,

568
00:32:02,864 --> 00:32:05,304
Speaker 2: so you're stringing somebody along so that you can get

569
00:32:05,344 --> 00:32:07,544
Speaker 2: to understand them. And understand what makes them ticke and stuff.

570
00:32:07,544 --> 00:32:10,144
Speaker 2: So you're creating a mini conspiracy. But I would argue

571
00:32:10,184 --> 00:32:13,544
Speaker 2: that intelligence officers often the least conspiratorial people know one

572
00:32:13,544 --> 00:32:17,824
Speaker 2: because how essentially impossible it is to create these big,

573
00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:22,584
Speaker 2: complex conspiracies Because he's a bureaucracy. People sign off for things,

574
00:32:22,864 --> 00:32:26,264
Speaker 2: there's lawyers, rules, regulations, there's lots of people involved. So

575
00:32:26,304 --> 00:32:29,824
Speaker 2: the notion that you could create this very complex conspiracy.

576
00:32:30,024 --> 00:32:32,104
Speaker 2: Look at the JFK thing. Okay, they made sure the

577
00:32:32,224 --> 00:32:34,664
Speaker 2: phones were all turned off in this city at that time,

578
00:32:34,704 --> 00:32:37,424
Speaker 2: and they made sure that the plane was over this

579
00:32:37,544 --> 00:32:39,504
Speaker 2: certain area when this thing happened, and they made sure

580
00:32:39,584 --> 00:32:42,144
Speaker 2: this group of people, they turned off all the security

581
00:32:42,144 --> 00:32:45,264
Speaker 2: and they brought new security. All of those people involved

582
00:32:45,264 --> 00:32:47,424
Speaker 2: having to understand what they're doing and understand they're doing

583
00:32:47,424 --> 00:32:48,224
Speaker 2: something very different.

584
00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:51,104
Speaker 5: It Just imagine governments were that competent.

585
00:32:51,384 --> 00:32:52,384
Speaker 2: Nobody's that competent.

586
00:32:52,504 --> 00:32:54,464
Speaker 3: So there was that we had a the d n

587
00:32:54,584 --> 00:32:57,944
Speaker 3: I was created, right, the direct cognition, Oh it was.

588
00:32:57,984 --> 00:33:00,384
Speaker 3: I'll say it was Dennis Blair and he's he was

589
00:33:00,664 --> 00:33:01,664
Speaker 3: a second or third one.

590
00:33:01,744 --> 00:33:03,264
Speaker 4: He's I'm the big guy.

591
00:33:03,304 --> 00:33:06,264
Speaker 3: I looked at this ORG chart and you all you all,

592
00:33:06,304 --> 00:33:09,344
Speaker 3: you motherfuckers, you got to come and bow to me, right,

593
00:33:09,624 --> 00:33:12,744
Speaker 3: So he puts out this worldwide thing saying all chiefs

594
00:33:12,784 --> 00:33:15,944
Speaker 3: of station must report to me by next week. And

595
00:33:15,984 --> 00:33:20,064
Speaker 3: then we said chiefs of station, like, okay, where do

596
00:33:20,104 --> 00:33:21,904
Speaker 3: we get our plane tickets? We don't have money in

597
00:33:21,944 --> 00:33:24,384
Speaker 3: our budget for this, so d and I what's our

598
00:33:24,504 --> 00:33:27,704
Speaker 3: budget number that we can do this? And where are

599
00:33:27,704 --> 00:33:30,784
Speaker 3: we going to stay? And who pays for the rental cars?

600
00:33:31,184 --> 00:33:33,744
Speaker 3: So it was like the bureaucracy just didn't you know.

601
00:33:33,784 --> 00:33:35,464
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, you may be the boss, dude, but

602
00:33:35,504 --> 00:33:37,704
Speaker 3: you don't have a budget. You got your lawyers, like

603
00:33:37,744 --> 00:33:40,784
Speaker 3: I got shit going on. And then it was a disaster.

604
00:33:41,504 --> 00:33:45,104
Speaker 3: And so people who think by and large that in

605
00:33:45,184 --> 00:33:48,464
Speaker 3: the federal government, even in the CIA and the intelligence community,

606
00:33:48,544 --> 00:33:52,064
Speaker 3: somebody can per fiat just say oh dude, oh And

607
00:33:52,104 --> 00:33:54,864
Speaker 3: then everybody talked about it for years. It was like

608
00:33:55,184 --> 00:33:58,824
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, everybody knew, because it's not like

609
00:33:58,904 --> 00:34:00,664
Speaker 3: all the chiefs of station kept their mouths shut. They

610
00:34:00,704 --> 00:34:03,184
Speaker 3: all had coffee with their buddies and people are overhearing,

611
00:34:03,224 --> 00:34:04,944
Speaker 3: and that was a disaster well.

612
00:34:04,784 --> 00:34:07,384
Speaker 2: And they hid us for a personality that we actually

613
00:34:07,384 --> 00:34:10,143
Speaker 2: are the kind of people who like are happy saying

614
00:34:10,184 --> 00:34:13,944
Speaker 2: no to leadership and y and so like you've got

615
00:34:13,984 --> 00:34:15,623
Speaker 2: a bunch of like, you know, you're trying to herd

616
00:34:15,663 --> 00:34:18,584
Speaker 2: cats and all these people think they're smarter than everybody else.

617
00:34:18,623 --> 00:34:21,263
Speaker 2: They're not, but they have they're pretty smart, and they

618
00:34:21,304 --> 00:34:24,224
Speaker 2: have their own sort of views, and they don't care

619
00:34:24,464 --> 00:34:28,464
Speaker 2: what people say. Because intelligence is about providing oftentimes information

620
00:34:28,504 --> 00:34:30,183
Speaker 2: to policy makers. We don't want to hear it. Yeah,

621
00:34:30,304 --> 00:34:32,304
Speaker 2: so that's part of the culture. And so the notion

622
00:34:32,384 --> 00:34:35,424
Speaker 2: that like this group could keep a deep conspiracy for

623
00:34:35,464 --> 00:34:36,623
Speaker 2: decades it's nuts.

624
00:34:36,864 --> 00:34:37,823
Speaker 4: I have to say that.

625
00:34:38,183 --> 00:34:40,664
Speaker 3: Every once in a while, in the Washington Post, Lesson

626
00:34:40,743 --> 00:34:43,584
Speaker 3: less Lately or New York Times, there will be some

627
00:34:43,703 --> 00:34:48,143
Speaker 3: expos on some past operation that the agency pulled off,

628
00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:49,904
Speaker 3: and I'll look at that and go, oh, I know

629
00:34:50,024 --> 00:34:52,623
Speaker 3: about this one. And then I'll start reading it and like, oh,

630
00:34:52,663 --> 00:34:53,944
Speaker 3: I didn't know those details.

631
00:34:54,263 --> 00:34:54,703
Speaker 4: WHOA.

632
00:34:55,344 --> 00:34:58,343
Speaker 5: I know a bunch of investigative journalists and they will say,

633
00:34:58,344 --> 00:35:01,183
Speaker 5: it's really hard to find out what's going on because

634
00:35:01,223 --> 00:35:03,664
Speaker 5: you don't just get this one source like deep throat

635
00:35:03,703 --> 00:35:08,464
Speaker 5: who knows everything. People have their own area of specialization

636
00:35:08,864 --> 00:35:12,143
Speaker 5: and they have some sense of what's going on elsewhere,

637
00:35:12,223 --> 00:35:15,863
Speaker 5: and there isn't just this one font of information that

638
00:35:15,944 --> 00:35:16,623
Speaker 5: you can go to.

639
00:35:16,984 --> 00:35:18,424
Speaker 2: No, And there's need to know. You might be in

640
00:35:18,424 --> 00:35:20,504
Speaker 2: the middle of an operation, and I know a lot of

641
00:35:20,504 --> 00:35:23,584
Speaker 2: stuff about that, but there's other pieces that you don't

642
00:35:23,584 --> 00:35:25,384
Speaker 2: have any sense for. And then you say, well, the

643
00:35:25,384 --> 00:35:28,024
Speaker 2: people above you must know. But they're managing tons and

644
00:35:28,024 --> 00:35:30,504
Speaker 2: tons of these operations, so they know only as much

645
00:35:30,544 --> 00:35:32,344
Speaker 2: as they need you or get money or to brief

646
00:35:32,384 --> 00:35:34,704
Speaker 2: that up. If the North Koreans of Russians had drugs

647
00:35:34,703 --> 00:35:37,544
Speaker 2: and they got the director of CIA and ask them, okay,

648
00:35:37,544 --> 00:35:40,064
Speaker 2: tell us all the secrets, you wouldn't get a lot.

649
00:35:40,024 --> 00:35:42,863
Speaker 3: And the things account like sources and methods. I'll tell

650
00:35:42,864 --> 00:35:47,223
Speaker 3: you if you get three CIA guys drinking around a bar, right,

651
00:35:47,304 --> 00:35:51,024
Speaker 3: and they're really gonna say it is most of us

652
00:35:51,064 --> 00:35:54,464
Speaker 3: could not remember the names of our agents or what

653
00:35:54,544 --> 00:35:56,984
Speaker 3: was the name of that operation again, even just a

654
00:35:57,064 --> 00:36:00,263
Speaker 3: few years afterwards, because these are small details, and in

655
00:36:00,344 --> 00:36:02,384
Speaker 3: our thing is like you may look at it once

656
00:36:02,464 --> 00:36:04,424
Speaker 3: and then a year later you don't really use that

657
00:36:04,864 --> 00:36:05,663
Speaker 3: small detail.

658
00:36:05,944 --> 00:36:09,223
Speaker 5: That The myth of the deep state really relies on

659
00:36:09,344 --> 00:36:11,424
Speaker 5: the idea that it's a bunch of people who know

660
00:36:11,544 --> 00:36:14,384
Speaker 5: exactly what they're doing and have a common cause. But

661
00:36:14,464 --> 00:36:17,383
Speaker 5: I've been looking at the origins of that myth, and

662
00:36:17,544 --> 00:36:20,824
Speaker 5: so one of them, of course is the Bay of Pigs,

663
00:36:20,864 --> 00:36:24,024
Speaker 5: when people started to become aware of what CIA were

664
00:36:24,064 --> 00:36:28,544
Speaker 5: doing and that they have this disastrous operation, and Kennedy

665
00:36:29,183 --> 00:36:32,304
Speaker 5: said that it was all on him, that he took responsibility,

666
00:36:32,344 --> 00:36:34,464
Speaker 5: but at the same time he fired Alan Dulles.

667
00:36:34,824 --> 00:36:38,024
Speaker 3: I think one of the great misunderstandings was a misunderstanding

668
00:36:38,064 --> 00:36:40,824
Speaker 3: at the time was I think a lot of people

669
00:36:40,944 --> 00:36:43,183
Speaker 3: involved in the app and lower down thought that if

670
00:36:43,223 --> 00:36:47,784
Speaker 3: it went bad, Kennedy would and had freed to employ

671
00:36:47,864 --> 00:36:50,223
Speaker 3: the US Air Force, And I think there were some

672
00:36:50,344 --> 00:36:52,983
Speaker 3: indications that he would have, but I think I don't

673
00:36:53,024 --> 00:36:54,943
Speaker 3: think he ever said I will and then went back

674
00:36:54,984 --> 00:36:56,783
Speaker 3: on his words. I think they just a lot of

675
00:36:56,783 --> 00:36:58,544
Speaker 3: it was just a human fuck up.

676
00:36:58,703 --> 00:37:01,663
Speaker 2: Yeah, they made assumptions about what and of course this

677
00:37:01,783 --> 00:37:04,663
Speaker 2: is pre reform cias. When so you go to see

678
00:37:04,663 --> 00:37:06,663
Speaker 2: the president, they would say, maybe not give you a

679
00:37:06,663 --> 00:37:08,703
Speaker 2: direct order. They might like, listen, we're going to do

680
00:37:08,703 --> 00:37:11,183
Speaker 2: something about the leader in Chile or whatever it is,

681
00:37:11,223 --> 00:37:14,104
Speaker 2: and the director would come back without a specific order,

682
00:37:14,143 --> 00:37:15,783
Speaker 2: but like a general thing and go back down to

683
00:37:15,783 --> 00:37:17,544
Speaker 2: people generally, we need to do this, we need that.

684
00:37:17,584 --> 00:37:19,943
Speaker 2: So I've always making assumptions about what people above them

685
00:37:20,304 --> 00:37:22,584
Speaker 2: want and think, and then the real world is complex

686
00:37:22,623 --> 00:37:25,703
Speaker 2: and dirty and it gets carried out and then everybody's like, oh,

687
00:37:25,783 --> 00:37:28,303
Speaker 2: I thought you wanted this or wanted that. Once we

688
00:37:28,344 --> 00:37:31,223
Speaker 2: got to the reforms in the seventies, it became much

689
00:37:31,223 --> 00:37:33,703
Speaker 2: clear that presidents when they wanted to see I had

690
00:37:33,743 --> 00:37:36,384
Speaker 2: to do covert action, which is this kind of stuff.

691
00:37:36,504 --> 00:37:39,224
Speaker 2: They had to write written orders that were then shared

692
00:37:39,263 --> 00:37:41,943
Speaker 2: with the congressional committees as well as the agency, which

693
00:37:41,944 --> 00:37:44,623
Speaker 2: could then write back. And then everything we do is

694
00:37:44,783 --> 00:37:49,303
Speaker 2: incredibly documented. Yeah, so I think the intelligennity change fundamentally

695
00:37:49,304 --> 00:37:51,303
Speaker 2: at that time. But I also think there was still

696
00:37:51,304 --> 00:37:54,704
Speaker 2: a culture that people from that from intelligence don't speak,

697
00:37:54,703 --> 00:37:57,143
Speaker 2: they don't speak publicly, And it wasn't until I think

698
00:37:57,223 --> 00:38:00,183
Speaker 2: like the nineties, maybe early two thousands that if you retired.

699
00:38:00,223 --> 00:38:02,343
Speaker 2: So Jerry and I were both under State Department cover.

700
00:38:02,623 --> 00:38:04,024
Speaker 2: When we were retired, we were allowed to what we

701
00:38:04,064 --> 00:38:07,263
Speaker 2: call roll back our cover and then write articles and speak.

702
00:38:07,344 --> 00:38:09,104
Speaker 2: And you know, I can remember General Hayden saying it was.

703
00:38:09,623 --> 00:38:12,143
Speaker 2: It's a responsibility if you work for a secret organization

704
00:38:12,424 --> 00:38:14,184
Speaker 2: that if you have the opportunity to try to explain

705
00:38:14,263 --> 00:38:16,424
Speaker 2: what you can to the American public, you have an

706
00:38:16,424 --> 00:38:18,823
Speaker 2: obligation to do that. The public relies on the fact

707
00:38:18,824 --> 00:38:20,664
Speaker 2: that we are doing a mission for the American public,

708
00:38:20,703 --> 00:38:21,983
Speaker 2: so we can give you as much as we can.

709
00:38:22,223 --> 00:38:28,064
Speaker 3: But there's an inherent contradiction in having a clandestine a

710
00:38:28,223 --> 00:38:33,864
Speaker 3: secret intelligence agency inside a transparent democracy. The two don't fit,

711
00:38:34,024 --> 00:38:37,304
Speaker 3: and they shouldn't fit. We should control our intelligence agencies

712
00:38:37,424 --> 00:38:40,743
Speaker 3: very closely by elected officials in other countries. It's not

713
00:38:40,824 --> 00:38:43,863
Speaker 3: the case that the GRU and the SVR fit just

714
00:38:43,984 --> 00:38:47,224
Speaker 3: fine hand in glove and are central to Putin's Russia,

715
00:38:47,304 --> 00:38:50,623
Speaker 3: but CIA and MI sixter they're not. You're trying to

716
00:38:50,663 --> 00:38:54,183
Speaker 3: save sources and methods. You're trying to keep people for us.

717
00:38:54,223 --> 00:38:56,104
Speaker 3: People come to us and they say, I'll tell you

718
00:38:56,143 --> 00:38:58,904
Speaker 3: what's really going on, but you've got to keep me alive.

719
00:38:59,064 --> 00:39:01,984
Speaker 3: And we take that very seriously, and yeah, so we're

720
00:39:02,024 --> 00:39:04,024
Speaker 3: not going to tell we're not going to tell news

721
00:39:04,064 --> 00:39:06,623
Speaker 3: of the world. Well, according to this guy, you know,

722
00:39:06,663 --> 00:39:08,904
Speaker 3: the Russians are lying to us because he and his

723
00:39:08,944 --> 00:39:10,944
Speaker 3: family are you know, be executed.

724
00:39:33,584 --> 00:39:36,743
Speaker 5: So I think Dylan Avery is the name of the

725
00:39:36,783 --> 00:39:40,304
Speaker 5: person who made the Loose Change documentary about nine to eleven.

726
00:39:40,424 --> 00:39:42,144
Speaker 5: The conspiracy theory one.

727
00:39:42,223 --> 00:39:44,663
Speaker 4: Please experience on that. Now everybody knows what that is.

728
00:39:44,864 --> 00:39:47,383
Speaker 6: Well, the nine to eleven truthers who think that it

729
00:39:47,424 --> 00:39:51,704
Speaker 6: was all a government conspiracy have various sources, but the

730
00:39:51,703 --> 00:39:55,624
Speaker 6: most mainstream one is this documentary called Loose Change.

731
00:39:55,703 --> 00:39:56,743
Speaker 5: The final version of.

732
00:39:56,703 --> 00:40:00,903
Speaker 6: It ended up having Roger Stone as one of their producers, so.

733
00:40:00,824 --> 00:40:03,743
Speaker 5: You can imagine, oh wait, maybe it was Alex Jones. Yeah,

734
00:40:03,743 --> 00:40:06,584
Speaker 5: it was Alex Jones. But it started out just this

735
00:40:06,663 --> 00:40:10,863
Speaker 5: guy who was actually writing a fictional screen so it

736
00:40:10,944 --> 00:40:15,504
Speaker 5: was precisely supposed to be one of these Hollywood stories

737
00:40:16,223 --> 00:40:20,303
Speaker 5: about the loan hero discovering the big conspiracy, and then

738
00:40:20,384 --> 00:40:23,064
Speaker 5: he became the hero of his own movie and turned

739
00:40:23,064 --> 00:40:26,064
Speaker 5: it into a documentary. And I think that's just something

740
00:40:26,104 --> 00:40:29,504
Speaker 5: that is really tempting for people. It's what's been glamorized

741
00:40:29,584 --> 00:40:33,064
Speaker 5: more than anything else in our societies. The fact most

742
00:40:33,183 --> 00:40:36,984
Speaker 5: buy movies are about people like Jason Bourne, who are

743
00:40:37,104 --> 00:40:41,623
Speaker 5: that loan hero that are going against all of the

744
00:40:41,783 --> 00:40:46,984
Speaker 5: authorities and finding out everything for themselves and changing the world.

745
00:40:47,424 --> 00:40:50,864
Speaker 2: But the reality of an intelligence organization, it's a team sport.

746
00:40:50,904 --> 00:40:53,264
Speaker 2: Like Jerry and I are trying to meet a recruit,

747
00:40:53,263 --> 00:40:56,424
Speaker 2: a source, but we're counting on lots of people behind

748
00:40:56,464 --> 00:40:59,744
Speaker 2: us expertise. If we have to get special equipment, people

749
00:40:59,743 --> 00:41:01,944
Speaker 2: who have records back home that can help us understand

750
00:41:02,024 --> 00:41:04,343
Speaker 2: what's going on about, what the issues are, what kind

751
00:41:04,384 --> 00:41:07,384
Speaker 2: of questions they ask, and so you talk about common

752
00:41:07,424 --> 00:41:11,104
Speaker 2: cause to us mission is very but the mission is

753
00:41:11,663 --> 00:41:15,663
Speaker 2: providing unbiased information to policymakers they make better policy and

754
00:41:15,703 --> 00:41:19,584
Speaker 2: protect the American citizens. And it's non but it is nonpartisan.

755
00:41:19,623 --> 00:41:20,183
Speaker 4: I don't talk.

756
00:41:20,304 --> 00:41:23,183
Speaker 2: I don't remember ever talking to anybody inside, even my

757
00:41:23,223 --> 00:41:26,823
Speaker 2: best friends about politics or politicians, even when we were drinking,

758
00:41:26,864 --> 00:41:29,223
Speaker 2: even when we're overseas. It wasn't really till you were

759
00:41:29,424 --> 00:41:31,223
Speaker 2: tired and you see them on Facebook or these other

760
00:41:31,263 --> 00:41:33,703
Speaker 2: places talking and you're like, oh my god, I had

761
00:41:33,743 --> 00:41:35,823
Speaker 2: no idea that, and like, I would you know, until

762
00:41:35,904 --> 00:41:37,584
Speaker 2: Jerry and I got to know each other after we retired,

763
00:41:37,623 --> 00:41:39,024
Speaker 2: I don't know Jerry's politics.

764
00:41:39,223 --> 00:41:41,303
Speaker 4: Yeah, no clue. He just knew I was right all

765
00:41:41,344 --> 00:41:41,663
Speaker 4: the time.

766
00:41:41,824 --> 00:41:44,584
Speaker 2: And focus on You're focused on doing your work and

767
00:41:44,663 --> 00:41:47,664
Speaker 2: if anything we sort of look down on politicians because

768
00:41:47,743 --> 00:41:49,623
Speaker 2: they come out to our stations. We have to brief

769
00:41:49,623 --> 00:41:52,064
Speaker 2: them all the time. The questions are often stupid. They

770
00:41:52,143 --> 00:41:55,024
Speaker 2: don't really understand us. They're in a game where they're

771
00:41:55,024 --> 00:41:57,263
Speaker 2: trying to self promote. We're in a game where it's

772
00:41:57,263 --> 00:41:58,264
Speaker 2: not about self promotion.

773
00:41:58,464 --> 00:42:04,263
Speaker 5: So you know, if any president comes into office and

774
00:42:04,384 --> 00:42:07,623
Speaker 5: has a whole new vision for what CIA should be

775
00:42:07,743 --> 00:42:11,303
Speaker 5: and what everybody should be doing that conflicts with the

776
00:42:11,384 --> 00:42:13,863
Speaker 5: sense of mission and people going to push back.

777
00:42:13,663 --> 00:42:16,344
Speaker 2: That's a great question, because I don't it never happened before.

778
00:42:16,424 --> 00:42:19,104
Speaker 2: Jerry and I worked for Reagan and Bush and Obama

779
00:42:19,223 --> 00:42:21,424
Speaker 2: and Clinton and everybody, and it was there would be

780
00:42:21,623 --> 00:42:24,944
Speaker 2: policy changes and questions and what happened with this country

781
00:42:24,944 --> 00:42:26,504
Speaker 2: in that country and what we're doing, But in terms

782
00:42:26,544 --> 00:42:29,104
Speaker 2: of our business, almost no real change in.

783
00:42:29,104 --> 00:42:29,863
Speaker 4: The day to day work.

784
00:42:29,864 --> 00:42:32,904
Speaker 2: If you're in India trying to collect information on Russians

785
00:42:32,904 --> 00:42:34,623
Speaker 2: and Chinese and other kinds of things and a new

786
00:42:34,623 --> 00:42:38,264
Speaker 2: president comes in, there's not a lot of difference. However,

787
00:42:38,344 --> 00:42:40,863
Speaker 2: now it might be true because the administration wants the

788
00:42:40,864 --> 00:42:43,544
Speaker 2: CIA to be a partisan weapon to help the presidents

789
00:42:43,544 --> 00:42:45,823
Speaker 2: stay in power or to carry through his thing. So

790
00:42:46,143 --> 00:42:48,343
Speaker 2: now might be the real challenge and to try to

791
00:42:48,384 --> 00:42:51,783
Speaker 2: see how much of that is filtering down through the organization.

792
00:42:52,183 --> 00:42:54,544
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Tamson, you talked about being a hero in

793
00:42:54,584 --> 00:42:56,744
Speaker 3: euro movie, and I would be remiss if I didn't

794
00:42:56,783 --> 00:42:59,743
Speaker 3: throw in this anecdote. I was in a place and

795
00:42:59,783 --> 00:43:01,464
Speaker 3: it was in a war zone, right, It was a

796
00:43:01,584 --> 00:43:05,104
Speaker 3: very dangerous place, and a congressman flew in and he

797
00:43:05,223 --> 00:43:09,184
Speaker 3: was inside this secure military base, but outside the base

798
00:43:09,703 --> 00:43:12,424
Speaker 3: the bad guys were there and they kind of like

799
00:43:13,263 --> 00:43:16,384
Speaker 3: ruled the turf. And he said, I want to go

800
00:43:16,504 --> 00:43:19,263
Speaker 3: out and I want to get in a firefight. Right,

801
00:43:19,304 --> 00:43:22,023
Speaker 3: I want to go out, have the bad guys attack us,

802
00:43:22,064 --> 00:43:23,743
Speaker 3: and I want to get in a firefight, and I

803
00:43:23,783 --> 00:43:27,544
Speaker 3: want it photographed me shooting a weapon in them.

804
00:43:27,944 --> 00:43:29,584
Speaker 4: And first of all, we would go out in a

805
00:43:29,623 --> 00:43:32,423
Speaker 4: convoy with jeeps and things like that, and they would

806
00:43:32,504 --> 00:43:33,183
Speaker 4: ambush us.

807
00:43:33,263 --> 00:43:34,863
Speaker 3: The rule of an ambush is they get the first

808
00:43:34,864 --> 00:43:37,703
Speaker 3: with automatic weapons, They get the first thousand rounds to

809
00:43:37,743 --> 00:43:40,703
Speaker 3: shoot at us, and then if and when we survived,

810
00:43:40,783 --> 00:43:41,703
Speaker 3: we get to shoot back.

811
00:43:41,743 --> 00:43:43,544
Speaker 4: But they're hiding. But I didn't tell them that.

812
00:43:43,824 --> 00:43:47,143
Speaker 3: And then he went a step further and said, oh,

813
00:43:47,384 --> 00:43:50,223
Speaker 3: be good if I just got wingked, you know, just

814
00:43:50,304 --> 00:43:53,343
Speaker 3: like a little you know, just like just you know,

815
00:43:53,464 --> 00:43:55,823
Speaker 3: just a little bit of blood and like you.

816
00:43:55,703 --> 00:43:57,944
Speaker 4: Do what a modern round does to you.

817
00:43:57,944 --> 00:43:59,944
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, you know, you're more likely to

818
00:44:00,263 --> 00:44:03,863
Speaker 3: This was a guy from the House of Representatives, and

819
00:44:03,944 --> 00:44:06,904
Speaker 3: he was so steeped in the mythology.

820
00:44:06,344 --> 00:44:08,864
Speaker 4: Of the movies because he had seen.

821
00:44:08,584 --> 00:44:10,623
Speaker 3: This on TV so many And I'm not an ex

822
00:44:10,703 --> 00:44:13,343
Speaker 3: military guide. The military guys who are like flood the block.

823
00:44:13,464 --> 00:44:18,143
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know I too, I know. It was like,

824
00:44:18,263 --> 00:44:19,623
Speaker 4: I'm not going with you. I'm not.

825
00:44:20,024 --> 00:44:23,544
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I think I jokingly told them that

826
00:44:23,584 --> 00:44:26,104
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be good for my career. It's not a

827
00:44:26,104 --> 00:44:29,383
Speaker 3: career improver to get a congressman killed, Like who's your guest? Right,

828
00:44:29,864 --> 00:44:33,223
Speaker 3: By and large, we have some really good officers and

829
00:44:33,304 --> 00:44:35,783
Speaker 3: to see the vast majority are because these are people

830
00:44:35,783 --> 00:44:38,703
Speaker 3: who could have made lots more money on the outside.

831
00:44:39,024 --> 00:44:41,343
Speaker 3: They wouldn't have taken their kids to places where there

832
00:44:41,344 --> 00:44:44,303
Speaker 3: are cobras and malaria. You worry about your family, and

833
00:44:44,384 --> 00:44:46,423
Speaker 3: yet they did it because of mission, because of those

834
00:44:46,544 --> 00:44:49,384
Speaker 3: values and the constitutions you talked about that we believe

835
00:44:49,464 --> 00:44:50,264
Speaker 3: in those things.

836
00:44:50,623 --> 00:44:51,303
Speaker 4: But we have a few.

837
00:44:51,424 --> 00:44:53,544
Speaker 3: Like any place else, we have a few people who

838
00:44:53,623 --> 00:44:55,784
Speaker 3: either our shipballs or become crazy.

839
00:44:56,104 --> 00:44:56,343
Speaker 2: Yeah.

840
00:44:56,464 --> 00:44:59,984
Speaker 5: I just read Tim Winer's book on CIA in the

841
00:45:00,024 --> 00:45:02,584
Speaker 5: twenty first centuries, and that was amazing because there are

842
00:45:02,623 --> 00:45:05,703
Speaker 5: people in there who he names that I either met

843
00:45:05,824 --> 00:45:08,624
Speaker 5: or just follow on social media, and I'm suddenly finding

844
00:45:08,663 --> 00:45:11,744
Speaker 5: out about the things they've done that are just mind

845
00:45:11,783 --> 00:45:17,223
Speaker 5: blowing to ordinary people who live safe lives in urban settings.

846
00:45:17,623 --> 00:45:20,143
Speaker 2: It was a fun job. Like honestly, God and I

847
00:45:20,304 --> 00:45:22,823
Speaker 2: sound like we're proselytizing here, but you know, I spent

848
00:45:22,864 --> 00:45:26,104
Speaker 2: almost thirty years in the organization. I don't regret any

849
00:45:26,143 --> 00:45:28,223
Speaker 2: of it. I think what I did. You know, we're

850
00:45:28,223 --> 00:45:30,423
Speaker 2: trying to do the right thing. There were so many

851
00:45:30,504 --> 00:45:33,223
Speaker 2: fun and interesting people. We got to work around the world,

852
00:45:33,344 --> 00:45:36,584
Speaker 2: different cultures, meeting and working with foreign organizations. It was

853
00:45:36,663 --> 00:45:39,783
Speaker 2: really interesting, fun stimulating. You felt like you were doing

854
00:45:39,783 --> 00:45:42,304
Speaker 2: something bigger than yourself. I don't have any regrets.

855
00:45:42,464 --> 00:45:45,064
Speaker 5: How do you guys pick up languages just like that,

856
00:45:45,424 --> 00:45:45,984
Speaker 5: You don't.

857
00:45:45,743 --> 00:45:47,823
Speaker 3: Pick them up from this, Well, that's part of the

858
00:45:47,864 --> 00:45:51,263
Speaker 3: diversity that we are languages right, or we take a

859
00:45:51,344 --> 00:45:53,744
Speaker 3: year off and you get okay with the language.

860
00:45:53,783 --> 00:45:56,263
Speaker 2: Yeah, I learned Finnish and Russian and server e creation,

861
00:45:56,584 --> 00:45:58,903
Speaker 2: but it was painful. So when I learned Russian, I

862
00:45:58,984 --> 00:46:01,984
Speaker 2: was in a room with one or two other people

863
00:46:02,384 --> 00:46:05,544
Speaker 2: for a year, all day long, trying to speak, trying

864
00:46:05,544 --> 00:46:08,104
Speaker 2: to read, and then at going back and back. Then

865
00:46:08,104 --> 00:46:11,104
Speaker 2: when there's cassettes, having to listen home and do someone homework.

866
00:46:10,783 --> 00:46:12,544
Speaker 4: And just it's just it's your job.

867
00:46:12,623 --> 00:46:14,824
Speaker 2: You work for CIA, and that whole year you're working

868
00:46:14,904 --> 00:46:17,304
Speaker 2: in a language lab preparing to learn the language.

869
00:46:17,384 --> 00:46:20,344
Speaker 5: So can I ask how does it feel when members

870
00:46:20,344 --> 00:46:24,584
Speaker 5: of the public who now know that your former CIA

871
00:46:24,864 --> 00:46:28,504
Speaker 5: start without knowing anything about what you did, obviously, will

872
00:46:28,504 --> 00:46:32,184
Speaker 5: start to blame you for every covit oh that they've

873
00:46:32,223 --> 00:46:37,143
Speaker 5: heard about, like Operation paper Clip to Nazis or Operation

874
00:46:37,304 --> 00:46:39,743
Speaker 5: Phoenix or whatever it is. That you know that a

875
00:46:40,064 --> 00:46:43,344
Speaker 5: part of the culpiller idea of CIA.

876
00:46:43,424 --> 00:46:46,143
Speaker 3: Operation paper Clip is a good one. So do you

877
00:46:46,344 --> 00:46:50,264
Speaker 3: allow the sow Do you allow Stalin, who's murdering millions

878
00:46:50,263 --> 00:46:52,903
Speaker 3: of his own people to get scientists who know how

879
00:46:52,904 --> 00:46:55,343
Speaker 3: to make a nuclear bomb in missiles? Or do you

880
00:46:56,064 --> 00:46:58,223
Speaker 3: take these Nazis and bring them to the US where

881
00:46:58,263 --> 00:47:01,623
Speaker 3: Stalin doesn't get them? It's not a black or white issue,

882
00:47:01,663 --> 00:47:05,544
Speaker 3: it's a gray issue, and oftentimes in CIA we deal

883
00:47:05,584 --> 00:47:09,224
Speaker 3: with those right. And there's one of the really interesting

884
00:47:09,263 --> 00:47:12,424
Speaker 3: things in being a CIA. If it was easy black

885
00:47:12,464 --> 00:47:15,104
Speaker 3: and white, obviously good or bad, then you wouldn't need us.

886
00:47:15,504 --> 00:47:18,423
Speaker 3: So we deal often with gray, whereas how gray is it?

887
00:47:18,743 --> 00:47:22,064
Speaker 3: And what's our mission and what's what's our political masters want?

888
00:47:22,263 --> 00:47:25,104
Speaker 3: Is what's good for the democracy? And what's the downside

889
00:47:25,104 --> 00:47:26,024
Speaker 3: of not doing it?

890
00:47:26,143 --> 00:47:28,544
Speaker 5: But when it goes wrong, you guys seem to get

891
00:47:28,584 --> 00:47:31,743
Speaker 5: the blame wrong than the president did it Is that

892
00:47:31,824 --> 00:47:33,664
Speaker 5: because of plausible deniability?

893
00:47:33,743 --> 00:47:35,904
Speaker 2: For I think that's the idea. But if you go

894
00:47:35,944 --> 00:47:37,863
Speaker 2: to the working boy, like I said, when people bring

895
00:47:37,864 --> 00:47:39,824
Speaker 2: that stuff up often, I'm glad to have the discussion

896
00:47:39,864 --> 00:47:42,183
Speaker 2: because some of the things that the early CI did.

897
00:47:42,263 --> 00:47:43,943
Speaker 2: First of all, it was a new institution brought out

898
00:47:43,984 --> 00:47:46,743
Speaker 2: of nowhere, and the fear was World War three was

899
00:47:46,824 --> 00:47:49,223
Speaker 2: right around the bend. Russians were going to come over

900
00:47:49,344 --> 00:47:52,263
Speaker 2: take over Europe. We had to act like the Russians did.

901
00:47:52,544 --> 00:47:54,343
Speaker 2: And the people who were in the early CIA came

902
00:47:54,384 --> 00:47:57,984
Speaker 2: out of working in World War Two. They were paramilitary officers,

903
00:47:58,024 --> 00:48:00,904
Speaker 2: and so in those early years, the presidents used the

904
00:48:00,944 --> 00:48:03,703
Speaker 2: CIA as is like a secret weapon, and the people

905
00:48:03,743 --> 00:48:05,303
Speaker 2: there were learning on the fly, and so I think

906
00:48:05,304 --> 00:48:06,703
Speaker 2: we did make a lot of mistakes. I think a

907
00:48:06,703 --> 00:48:09,504
Speaker 2: lot of stuff. You look at it with Iran or Guatemala,

908
00:48:09,544 --> 00:48:11,944
Speaker 2: all of these kinds of things. Number One, presidents were

909
00:48:12,024 --> 00:48:14,064
Speaker 2: behind it. Number Two, the agency didn't have any real

910
00:48:14,104 --> 00:48:16,743
Speaker 2: oversight and didn't have much experience, and so it's fair

911
00:48:16,783 --> 00:48:18,464
Speaker 2: to have those discussions and what was right and what

912
00:48:18,504 --> 00:48:21,624
Speaker 2: was wrong. I think it's changed a lot, and it's true.

913
00:48:21,904 --> 00:48:24,944
Speaker 2: You don't hear people say the Department of Defense invasion

914
00:48:24,984 --> 00:48:27,783
Speaker 2: of Iraq. They say the US invasion of Iraq. But

915
00:48:27,824 --> 00:48:30,544
Speaker 2: when you talk about enhance the derogation, the CIA enhanced derogation.

916
00:48:30,824 --> 00:48:34,904
Speaker 2: It was actually the US program of its interesting. President

917
00:48:34,984 --> 00:48:38,104
Speaker 2: gave it, the Justice Department cleared it. I mean, Congress

918
00:48:38,223 --> 00:48:40,943
Speaker 2: was briefed fully on all of it. And you can

919
00:48:41,024 --> 00:48:43,023
Speaker 2: argue whether it was good or bad. But the CI

920
00:48:43,104 --> 00:48:44,904
Speaker 2: didn't invent it and say we're just going to do

921
00:48:44,944 --> 00:48:46,184
Speaker 2: this without anybody.

922
00:48:45,984 --> 00:48:47,344
Speaker 4: And context is important.

923
00:48:47,424 --> 00:48:50,783
Speaker 3: Right twenty five years later, twenty almost twenty five years later,

924
00:48:50,783 --> 00:48:53,064
Speaker 3: after nine to eleven, we haven't had another major attack

925
00:48:53,143 --> 00:48:56,503
Speaker 3: inside the US. So people are like feeling safe now,

926
00:48:56,864 --> 00:49:00,143
Speaker 3: But twenty three years ago, we're picking up chatter from

927
00:49:00,223 --> 00:49:03,623
Speaker 3: al Qaida that another attack is coming, right, they are

928
00:49:03,703 --> 00:49:05,384
Speaker 3: going to and they were working on it like a

929
00:49:05,464 --> 00:49:07,984
Speaker 3: dirty bomb, all sorts of things. And we're looking at

930
00:49:08,104 --> 00:49:12,024
Speaker 3: not just three thousand dead, but tens of thousands potentially dead. Okay,

931
00:49:12,064 --> 00:49:15,304
Speaker 3: So what would you do morally to stop ten thousand

932
00:49:15,344 --> 00:49:19,504
Speaker 3: Americans dying? Would you make someone discoss you know, you're

933
00:49:19,504 --> 00:49:21,783
Speaker 3: not pulling their fingernails out, that's illegal, that's torture, But

934
00:49:21,904 --> 00:49:25,143
Speaker 3: how uncomfortable would you make them? And who decides and

935
00:49:25,223 --> 00:49:27,863
Speaker 3: how is that decided? So it gets into a cause.

936
00:49:27,864 --> 00:49:30,544
Speaker 3: If you don't do it and ten thousand people die,

937
00:49:30,743 --> 00:49:33,343
Speaker 3: you know the gifts here, But at the time this

938
00:49:33,504 --> 00:49:37,784
Speaker 3: was considered a genuine possibility. How do you live with yourself?

939
00:49:37,864 --> 00:49:38,423
Speaker 4: Right? And so.

940
00:49:40,143 --> 00:49:43,903
Speaker 2: The same congressional people who complain about we went too far,

941
00:49:44,504 --> 00:49:46,663
Speaker 2: if there was far strikes, they would have said, you

942
00:49:46,703 --> 00:49:49,183
Speaker 2: guys didn't do enough. And so we understand that where

943
00:49:49,183 --> 00:49:51,104
Speaker 2: it's sort of about the edge, and so you're going

944
00:49:51,183 --> 00:49:52,504
Speaker 2: to get criticism.

945
00:49:52,743 --> 00:49:55,823
Speaker 4: Is it torture to put somebody in isolation? Right?

946
00:49:55,864 --> 00:49:57,504
Speaker 3: We do it in prisons all the time. So is

947
00:49:57,544 --> 00:49:59,664
Speaker 3: that torture or isn't it. You can make an argument

948
00:49:59,783 --> 00:50:03,304
Speaker 3: both ways, and so where is the line and torture

949
00:50:03,384 --> 00:50:06,823
Speaker 3: to just be to be sadistic is one thing, But

950
00:50:07,344 --> 00:50:10,863
Speaker 3: pressure on another person to say lives when it's a

951
00:50:10,904 --> 00:50:14,223
Speaker 3: ticking time bombing you don't have six weeks, it's quite

952
00:50:14,223 --> 00:50:14,703
Speaker 3: something else.

953
00:50:14,944 --> 00:50:16,743
Speaker 2: I think it's in Tim Winer's book where he talks

954
00:50:16,743 --> 00:50:19,343
Speaker 2: about the head lawyer of the counter Terrorism Center when

955
00:50:19,344 --> 00:50:21,663
Speaker 2: this came up, that they were talking about waterboarding, and

956
00:50:21,663 --> 00:50:24,263
Speaker 2: she said, well, I'm not signing off on waterboarding. I

957
00:50:24,304 --> 00:50:26,623
Speaker 2: know we use it against our own troops and training,

958
00:50:26,663 --> 00:50:28,944
Speaker 2: but I'm not signing off on that until you waterboard me.

959
00:50:29,304 --> 00:50:32,343
Speaker 2: And she was she was waterboarded, and she said that

960
00:50:32,504 --> 00:50:35,464
Speaker 2: was awful, but it's not worse than childbirth. And so

961
00:50:35,864 --> 00:50:37,823
Speaker 2: these are hard choices and if you don't if you

962
00:50:37,824 --> 00:50:40,464
Speaker 2: can't make hard choices, you shouldn't get in that business.

963
00:50:40,464 --> 00:50:41,303
Speaker 4: I do something right.

964
00:50:41,344 --> 00:50:43,423
Speaker 3: So we're not defending it, We're just simply saying it's

965
00:50:43,424 --> 00:50:46,503
Speaker 3: a very interesting conversation. And at the end of the day,

966
00:50:46,703 --> 00:50:49,984
Speaker 3: I think those decisions need to be made by our

967
00:50:50,024 --> 00:50:53,304
Speaker 3: elected representatives, not by members of the intelligence company.

968
00:50:53,384 --> 00:50:56,744
Speaker 2: But then we need to elect smarter people. Then yeah, listen,

969
00:50:56,783 --> 00:50:59,024
Speaker 2: I think we probably kept you too long. It's been fasting.

970
00:50:59,384 --> 00:51:01,623
Speaker 2: We want to thank you for coming on with us today.

971
00:51:01,864 --> 00:51:07,944
Speaker 5: Thank you, it was great talking to guys.

972
00:51:08,504 --> 00:51:13,544
Speaker 8: Mission Implausible was produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher,

973
00:51:13,864 --> 00:51:18,264
Speaker 8: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission

974
00:51:18,304 --> 00:51:22,343
Speaker 8: Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures

975
00:51:22,384 --> 00:51:23,743
Speaker 8: for iHeart Podcasts.