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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello and welcome to a special edition of the

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab podcast. I hope all my listeners who celebrate

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Speaker 1: had a happy Thanksgiving. But the day I really look

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Speaker 1: forward to each November is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. Forget

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Speaker 1: Black Friday and Cyber Monday, my holiday of choice is

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Speaker 1: Giving Tuesday. Giving Tuesday is the global holiday of charitable

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Speaker 1: giving that falls right in the midst of our shopping frenzy,

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Speaker 1: a day that's not about commerce but compassion. Here at

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, we tend to make a big deal

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Speaker 1: out of Giving Tuesday. Every year, we share a special

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Speaker 1: episode that explores why doing good for others is super

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Speaker 1: good for our own happiness. We also like to give

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Speaker 1: our listeners a chance to team up and donate to

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Speaker 1: a charitable cause that really does good in the world.

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Speaker 1: For the past few years, that charity has been given Directly,

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Speaker 1: a nonprofit that takes your cash and gives it directly

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Speaker 1: to people in extreme poverty to spend as they see fit.

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Speaker 1: But this year we are going even bigger. We're bringing

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Speaker 1: together the fans of some of my favorite podcasts to

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Speaker 1: raise even more money to fight poverty. Think ten Percent

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Speaker 1: Happier with Dan Harris on Purpose with Jayshetty, Revisionist History,

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Speaker 1: Hidden Brain, How to Be a Better Human, and dozens more.

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Speaker 1: The campaign even has its own hashtag, Pods Fight Poverty.

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Speaker 1: Pods Fight Poverty is trying to raise a million dollars

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Speaker 1: this year, enough money to lift several villages in Rwanda

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Speaker 1: out of extreme poverty. If you want to help, had

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Speaker 1: to give directly dot org slash happiness Lab. To donate

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Speaker 1: what you can, let's GiveDirectly dot org slash happiness Lab.

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Speaker 1: If you're a fan of this show, you've probably already

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Speaker 1: heard about the great things GiB directly can do with

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Speaker 1: a small donation from a listener like you. Take the

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Speaker 1: great work we did earlier this year in collaboration with

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Speaker 1: author and YouTube star John Green, John and I asked

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Speaker 1: you to partner up with GiB direct to tackle the

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Speaker 1: deadly disease tuberculosis.

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Speaker 2: Tuberculosis is an airborne disease that usually affects the lungs.

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Speaker 2: If left untreated, tuberculosis usually does result in death. Fortunately,

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Speaker 2: since the nineteen fifties, we've had a cure for tuberculosis.

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Speaker 2: It's a bacterial infection, so the curious antibiotics given every

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Speaker 2: day over four to six months.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that many people with TB live in

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Speaker 1: parts of the world where they can't afford these life

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Speaker 1: saving drugs. So John and I asked our listeners to

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Speaker 1: help out. With lots of small donations of five or

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Speaker 1: ten bucks, we raised over one hundred thousand dollars to

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Speaker 1: fight this disease. That's incredible, right, But what's even more

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Speaker 1: incredible are the stories we heard about what this money

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Speaker 1: did for people living with the disease. Take one recipient, Margaret,

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Speaker 1: a thirty year old TB patient living in Malawi. Margaret's

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Speaker 1: TB could have easily been cured with a simple antibiotic,

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Speaker 1: but lacking the resources to get treatment, she eventually got

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Speaker 1: sicker and sicker. That is until she received the cash

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Speaker 1: donation we provided through gibdirectly. With that small amount of money,

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Speaker 1: she was able to pay for the bicycle taxi she

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Speaker 1: needed to travel to a far off clinic where she

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Speaker 1: was able to finally start her drug treatment. I was

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Speaker 1: overjoyed when I received the cash transfer, Margaret wrote in

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Speaker 1: her thank you letter to our listeners. It felt like

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Speaker 1: my life had been given a second chance. I have

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Speaker 1: hope again. Months later, I still think back to Margaret's story.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I'm having a crappy day, taking a moment to

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Speaker 1: remember what the five or ten bucks we collectively shared

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Speaker 1: did not just for Margaret, but for hundreds of other

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Speaker 1: people who were struggling. That feels amazing, Probably more amazing

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Speaker 1: than any material gift I'll be getting this holiday season.

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Speaker 1: That good feeling is what the rest of this episode

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Speaker 1: is about. With the help of some amazing fellow podcasters,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to explore the enormous psychological power of giving

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Speaker 1: and receiving. We'll see how small acts of kindness, a

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Speaker 1: spare bit of cash, or a tiny gesture of care

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Speaker 1: can create huge ripples in a person's life. I want

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Speaker 1: these stories to serve as a reminder for something lying

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Speaker 1: minds often forget that a great way to treat ourselves

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Speaker 1: is to do a small bit of good for somebody else.

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Speaker 1: To kick off these stories of how doing good can

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Speaker 1: make us feel good, let's look at how receiving an

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Speaker 1: act of kindness can change us. And we'll do that

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Speaker 1: with my first esteemed podcast host guest.

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Speaker 3: Hi, my name's Tim Harford, and I am the host

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Speaker 3: of Cautionary Tales.

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Speaker 1: Tim is a respected journalist and economist, but his story

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Speaker 1: of being the recipient of kindness goes back to a

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Speaker 1: time before he found fame working for the BBC or

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Speaker 1: hosting cautionary tales.

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Speaker 3: This story took place nearly a quarter of a century ago.

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Speaker 3: I was visiting a friend in Cameroon, which is in

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Speaker 3: West Africa, very poor part of the world. I was

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Speaker 3: in my mid twenties, and I was on edge because

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Speaker 3: you Cameroon was at the time rated as one of

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Speaker 3: the most corrupt countries in the world, and corrupt or not,

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Speaker 3: people there were often really desperate. As a tourist feel

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Speaker 3: like you're a target, and so I was always on

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Speaker 3: the lookout. I had just had this sort of suspicion.

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Speaker 3: I went around my travels around Cameroon. I had a

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Speaker 3: great time, was treated wonderfully by everybody I met, but

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Speaker 3: I never lost that feeling of you need to be careful.

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Speaker 3: Then one day I was standing by the roadside in

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Speaker 3: a smallish town called the Menda with a couple of

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Speaker 3: western friends, and I think we were waiting for a bus,

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Speaker 3: just bought some egg and chips. We're having a good time,

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Speaker 3: and we've just walked across country several miles on this

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Speaker 3: dust road, and as we're waiting, a couple of guys

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Speaker 3: zoom up behind us on a motorbike. Two guys on

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Speaker 3: one motorbike. I turned around, expecting some threat, and they

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Speaker 3: stopped right in front of me and one of them

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Speaker 3: just hands me something and I looked down at it

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Speaker 3: is this, and it's a passport. In fact, it's my passport.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm completely bewildered. Why is this guy giving

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Speaker 3: me my own passport? And of course I realized what's

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Speaker 3: happened is the passport was in my back pocket and

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Speaker 3: I've sat down by the roadside miles back and the

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Speaker 3: passport must have fallen out, and these guys have driven

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Speaker 3: along this road on the motorbike. They've spotted a British passport,

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Speaker 3: and they have gone all the way down the road

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Speaker 3: looking for the first guy they see who looks British,

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Speaker 3: which is me. They even got my photo with my passport,

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Speaker 3: and the amazing thing was they handed it over and

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Speaker 3: then they just drove off. They weren't They didn't sort

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Speaker 3: of stand around waiting for a tip or reward or

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Speaker 3: even really a thank so it was just you know,

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Speaker 3: there you go. I thought you might need this, and

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Speaker 3: off they went, and I realized that this suspicion which

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Speaker 3: with which I've been viewing everybody, had been so much

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Speaker 3: the opposite of how these guys had actually behaved. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I would have been even more grateful if I had

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Speaker 3: had a moment to realize they even had a problem,

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Speaker 3: because if I had been stuck in Cameroon without my passport,

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Speaker 3: that's a big problem that's going to cause me a

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Speaker 3: lot of headaches. But they had solved the problem before

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Speaker 3: I even realized they'd solved the problem. They had completely

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Speaker 3: defied my rather uncharitable expectations of the people of Cameroon,

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Speaker 3: and they're driven off into the sunset without even waiting

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Speaker 3: for a thank you.

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Speaker 1: It also seems like they did a lot of work,

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Speaker 1: Like it sounds like they were like chasing you as

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Speaker 1: you're walking around all through the day to try to

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Speaker 1: find you too.

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Speaker 3: Probably they came a couple of miles on the motorbike.

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Speaker 3: I mean it was probably ten or fifteen minutes. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I don't know at all really how much work they did,

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Speaker 3: But all I know is that they did it, And

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Speaker 3: they could easily have taken that passport and thought, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe maybe we can turn this into cash somehow, or

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Speaker 3: even just maybe we can try and get a tip

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Speaker 3: out of this guy.

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Speaker 1: Or just left it on the ground, like oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know this guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's someone else's problem. Yeah, just ignored it.

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Speaker 3: But they didn't that story.

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Speaker 1: But it also points out how like so many of

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Speaker 1: our societies are probably much more high trust societies than

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Speaker 1: we assume. Like so many people are out there doing

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Speaker 1: better things that we think, but I think we have

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Speaker 1: minds that assume people are kind of mistrusting. I actually, unfortunately, Tim,

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Speaker 1: I actually blame the economists on this a little bit

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Speaker 1: because I feel like, at least.

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Speaker 3: All fine, yeah, sure we kick the economists.

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Speaker 1: I mean, at least the standard economists have been telling

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Speaker 1: us for a long time that you know, we are

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Speaker 1: home economic as we are these selfish beings who are

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Speaker 1: going to go out.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the folks who returned your passport would do

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Speaker 1: it if they thought they could get you know, some

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Speaker 1: cash off you, or they you know, maybe they get

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Speaker 1: some huge reputational benefits. Someone saw them do it and

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Speaker 1: that you know, now they kind of like praising them

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Speaker 1: and so on. But they wouldn't just do it, just

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Speaker 1: for the good of doing it well, I mean, let.

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Speaker 3: Me push back a little bit. Let me push back

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Speaker 3: a little bit and defend my fellow economists. So the

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Speaker 3: classic economic model, all it says is that people have

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Speaker 3: consistent preferences, and it's kind of convenient to assume that

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Speaker 3: those preferences are about consumption, Like you're trying to spend

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Speaker 3: as little money as possible and get as much stuff

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Speaker 3: as possible for that money. It doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: you could and I've I've seen some beautiful economic models

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Speaker 3: written where actually, my pleasure is completely dependent on your pleasure, Laurie,

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Speaker 3: Like the happier I can just see the glow in

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Speaker 3: your eyes. I know how happy you are, and the

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Speaker 3: happier you are, the happier that makes me. There's nothing

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Speaker 3: in conventional economics that makes that impossible. We tend not

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Speaker 3: to make that assumption because it's kind of why would you,

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Speaker 3: And so we simplify and we talk about the purchase

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Speaker 3: of goods and services and we ignore the altruistic bit.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing in classical economics that says people can't be altruistic.

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Speaker 3: We I think just haven't paid enough attention to that possibility.

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Speaker 3: And because we don't pay attention to the possibility. We

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Speaker 3: just set it to one side.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised that we don't think of kind actions

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Speaker 1: as as valuable as impactful as they often are?

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Speaker 3: If I can just be a kind of amateur evolutionary

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Speaker 3: psychologist for a moment, I suppose you might naturally think

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Speaker 3: that we had evolved to be a little bit more

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Speaker 3: suspicious of people, particularly of strangers, because you know, it's

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Speaker 3: bad to have someone take advantage of you. But actually,

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Speaker 3: of course we evolved to be to be social beings,

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Speaker 3: and maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that people often

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Speaker 3: behave kindly to each other. I mean, I am aware

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Speaker 3: of some research in psychology. All know this kind of

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Speaker 3: work better than me, Laurie, But we often failed to generalize,

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Speaker 3: Like we think, oh, if I found a wallet with

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Speaker 3: like a driving license in it, then you know I'd

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Speaker 3: contact the owner or I'd hand it into the police station. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: of course That's what I'd do. But then you ask people,

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Speaker 3: You ask if other people would do that, and we think, oh, no,

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Speaker 3: other people would wouldn't do that. And it's not like

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Speaker 3: we think we're better than other people. It's just that

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Speaker 3: the two questions don't even overlap. It's almost as that

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Speaker 3: we've got a different circuit in our brain reflecting on

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Speaker 3: how we would behave or reflecting on how we think

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Speaker 3: somebody else will behave.

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Speaker 1: And this is a challenge for the organization that we've

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Speaker 1: been working with give directly. Their philosophy is like, we're

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Speaker 1: just going to give people money directly and let them

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Speaker 1: do with it what they want. That people in need

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Speaker 1: have the best ideas about how to spend their money

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Speaker 1: to make their situation better. But a lot of the

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Speaker 1: folks who are thinking about giving to give directly often

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Speaker 1: have the following problem, which is like, are people really

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Speaker 1: going to know what to do with the money? Are

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Speaker 1: they going to do something bad? Are they going to

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Speaker 1: buy something frivolous or something like that. It seems like

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Speaker 1: people just don't trust people to make the best decisions,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like this is part of the same

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Speaker 1: kind of bias we have as undercover economists. How do

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Speaker 1: you think of this bias and where what are we

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Speaker 1: doing wrong?

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Speaker 3: Give the economists some credit. We definitely trust people to

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Speaker 3: make decisions in their own interests. There are cases where

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Speaker 3: you might go, look, the money is only useful if

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Speaker 3: it's coordinated, So actually, what this village really needs is

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Speaker 3: a bridge or a well. But in general, people are

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Speaker 3: going to be good stewards of their own money, and

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Speaker 3: they're going to be good judges of how to spend

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Speaker 3: that money because there's so much they know about their situation,

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Speaker 3: about the context, and about their own ambitions that nobody

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Speaker 3: else can know. And if you give them money, then

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Speaker 3: you're putting them in the best possible position to take

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Speaker 3: advantage of their own context and to fulfill their own ambitions.

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Speaker 3: We're sort of trained to believe that if somebody really

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Speaker 3: needs a handout, that must be because they lack judgment,

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Speaker 3: that they have made many poor decisions in the past,

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Speaker 3: otherwise they wouldn't need a handout. But in somewhere like Cameroon,

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Speaker 3: it's definitely not true. There are lots and lots of

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Speaker 3: people in really difficult situations in many countries in the world,

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Speaker 3: and absolutely not because of any bad decisions that they

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Speaker 3: themselves have made. So I think we need to shake

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Speaker 3: off this idea that if someone needs if someone needs

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Speaker 3: a handout, then by definition they can't be trusted with

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Speaker 3: the handout. We've kind we've got to break out of

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Speaker 3: that because that's just nonsense.

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Speaker 1: So even an economist says that giving is good for us.

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Speaker 1: If you want to put that advice into effect right away,

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Speaker 1: then consider giving to the Pods Fight Poverty campaign, Just

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Speaker 1: go to Give Directly or slash Happiness Lab. The next

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Speaker 1: podcaster to share a story on the power of giving

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Speaker 1: is an old friend of the show.

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Speaker 4: First of all, it's great to see you again.

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Speaker 1: A minute and hes yeah. Army veteran JR. Martinez was

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Speaker 1: badly wounded in Iraq when the humpy he was driving

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Speaker 1: hit a roadside bomb. Forced to end his military service, Jr.

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Speaker 1: Entered a dark chapter, but he eventually fought back, building

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Speaker 1: a series of new careers, first as a TV actor,

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Speaker 1: then as a Dancing with the Stars champion, and finally

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Speaker 1: as the host of the inspiring podcast Medal of Honor. Jr.

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Speaker 1: Is a big fan of giving back. He's done an

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Speaker 1: incredible amount of service for the veteran community. But today

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Speaker 1: he asked to share a story not of giving, but

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Speaker 1: of receiving, specifically of receiving a life changing gift that

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Speaker 1: he didn't even know he needed.

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Speaker 5: In two thousand and nine, I was asked to do

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Speaker 5: the auction for a veteran's golf outing and it was

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Speaker 5: going to benefit a nonprofit set up to help you know,

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Speaker 5: service members and their families. And immediately I was like,

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Speaker 5: of course, now I'm not an auctioneer, but I'm sure

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Speaker 5: I'll get up there and you know, try to do

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Speaker 5: my best. And I was like, well, what are some

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Speaker 5: of the auction items? And they said this, this, this, this,

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Speaker 5: and a puppy And so they bring out the puppy.

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Speaker 5: He's eight weeks old black lab and I hold him

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Speaker 5: and I feel this like connection. I'm financially going through

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Speaker 5: my budget as a you know, twenty seven year old

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Speaker 5: of like, how much could I bid on this puppy?

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Speaker 5: The max was like I could probably do like six

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Speaker 5: hundred bucks, like that's the absolute max. So we get

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Speaker 5: there and immediately like that number has surpassed, Like it

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Speaker 5: We're not sex hundred. That number has moved on. And

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Speaker 5: so I'm holding the next auction item, this quilt, and

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Speaker 5: I'm ready to move it along, and a lady raises

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Speaker 5: her hand that bitted on the dog and says, may

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Speaker 5: I say something? So we're like, of course, So she

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Speaker 5: comes up to the state. She says, we love animals,

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Speaker 5: we love dogs. We love this dog, we love this cause,

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Speaker 5: but unfortunately we have you know, pets at home, so

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Speaker 5: there's no room for this sweet dog at our house.

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Speaker 4: And she says, so we.

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Speaker 5: Want to give them give him to j R. And

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Speaker 5: I'm like that quill, like I'm just like now using

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Speaker 5: it to like wipe all the tears and the snot

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Speaker 5: and everything.

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Speaker 1: And I'm in shock.

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Speaker 5: I was still going through my stages of you know,

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Speaker 5: like I was mad and I was navigating a lot

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Speaker 5: of emotional things and they give him to me and

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Speaker 5: I take him home and Laurie, I mean, he helped

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Speaker 5: me heal and he was my he was my companion

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Speaker 5: in all these stages of life that I navigated, and

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Speaker 5: I'm just forever like grateful And every time I would

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Speaker 5: see the couple that that did that gesture for me,

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Speaker 5: I mean, as you can imagine, I always felt forever

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Speaker 5: indebted to them because of you know, what they gave

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Speaker 5: to me and the gift they gave to me. And

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Speaker 5: when he passed, it was one of the hardest things

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Speaker 5: that I've experienced in my life.

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Speaker 1: What was his name, Romeo?

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Speaker 5: And I remember like I named him Warrior because I

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Speaker 5: was like, well, it's for wounded warriors. You know, this

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Speaker 5: is the you know, the mid twenties kid, you know

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Speaker 5: guy naming the dog, you know, And I was like, warrior, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: you're a warrior. Then I was like, what am I

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Speaker 5: going to call you for?

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Speaker 1: Short war?

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Speaker 5: And I was like, well, I don't know. I started

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Speaker 5: noticing this pattern where people would see him and they

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Speaker 5: would just like gravitate to him, and I was like, ah,

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Speaker 5: you're no warrior, You're a Romeo. And every time I

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Speaker 5: would look at him, no matter what stage of life

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Speaker 5: that I was in, his look just always reminded me

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Speaker 5: to just be just to be present, just to be

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Speaker 5: with him, just to be with the environment. Can't tell

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Speaker 5: you how many times I would take him to the

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Speaker 5: park and we would just sit at the park, just

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Speaker 5: he and I.

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Speaker 1: It also seemed like you didn't realize at that moment

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Speaker 1: that you really needed this kind gift, but then when

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Speaker 1: it came in your life, it really changed it.

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Speaker 5: I had no clue. I had absolutely no clue that

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Speaker 5: this is what I needed. As much as I was

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Speaker 5: sitting here budgeting like how much can I realistically afford

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Speaker 5: to bid on this dog? I was then thinking about

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Speaker 5: my life is busy, I can't have a dog right now,

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Speaker 5: Like who's going to watch the dog for me when

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Speaker 5: I'm when I have to travel? There were all these

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Speaker 5: reasons why I also couldn't have one, and then the

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Speaker 5: universe said, this is what you need and gave it

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Speaker 5: to me. And guess what I figured it out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how much folks ended up

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Speaker 1: spending on Romeo. It was clearly more than your six

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Speaker 1: hundred bucks that you're going to spend, you know, But

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Speaker 1: my guess is, whatever they spent, it actually wasn't as

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Speaker 1: much as you wound up getting out of Romeo. Like

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Speaker 1: the act of doing something nice for somebody has these

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Speaker 1: like incredible returns, like this huge return on investment that

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Speaker 1: we just don't often realize.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: If Romeo was here today and someone offered five hundred

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Speaker 5: times more than what they spent, when I take it,

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Speaker 5: absolutely not, absolutely not. There is no price that I

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Speaker 5: can put on that gesture of what they did for me.

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Speaker 5: That's the place we got to operate from. Do give,

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Speaker 5: even if we never necessarily get to understand the full

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Speaker 5: impact that it had.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to follow Jr's advice to do

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Speaker 1: and to give then here's the url where you can

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Speaker 1: donate to the Pods Fight Poverty campaign. It's GiveDirectly dot

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Speaker 1: org slash Happiness Lab. It's time for a quick break,

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Speaker 1: but we'll return with the story of a world famous

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Speaker 1: author who carries cash for strangers in need and a

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Speaker 1: scientist who has seen the first hand benefits of an

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Speaker 1: unexpectedly kind word. The Happiness Lab special episode on the

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Speaker 1: power of giving will return in a moment. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the Happiness Lab Special Giving Tuesday episode. In the

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Speaker 1: spirit of my favorite charitable holiday, I'm chatting with my

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Speaker 1: favorite podcasters about their personal stories of generosity. Our goal

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Speaker 1: is to remind you that one of the quickest ways

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Speaker 1: to feel happier yourself is to give a little happiness

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Speaker 1: back to somebody else. Next up, we have Michael Lewis.

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Speaker 1: I'm best selling author of Moneyball and The blind Side

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Speaker 1: and host of the award winning podcast Against the Rules.

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Speaker 1: Michael wanted to share a new strategy he's been using

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Speaker 1: to make it as easy as possible for him to

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Speaker 1: do good for people in need.

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Speaker 6: I made a.

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Speaker 7: Decision to always carry a bunch of ten dollars bills

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Speaker 7: with me so that if I see anybody who asked

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Speaker 7: me for money, I just automatically give them ten dollars

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Speaker 7: people on the streets.

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Speaker 1: So I started doing it, and so how does it feel?

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Speaker 7: So it is completely true that when you give something

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Speaker 7: to someone else you feel good.

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Speaker 3: Totally feels good.

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Speaker 7: But years ago, when I was working on the blind

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Speaker 7: Side the Christian family, the dad and the family said

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Speaker 7: to me something in passing about giving that I've never

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Speaker 7: been able to get out of my head. When I

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Speaker 7: hit a little bump in my mind about giving, it's

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Speaker 7: a touchdown for me, and it's if it doesn't hurt

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Speaker 7: a little bit, you haven't given enough. I thought that

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Speaker 7: was a cool idea. And so you know, it's not

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Speaker 7: a natural act just to hand money over people. It

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Speaker 7: hurts the tiny bit. So that also is a reassuring feeling.

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Speaker 1: I bet each of those ten dollars bills that you

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Speaker 1: gave away, the benefit that came to you was way

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Speaker 1: more than ten bucks that you would have blown on

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Speaker 1: like two lattes or something silly.

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Speaker 7: So this has only been gone on for a couple months,

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Speaker 7: So this only happened like five times. But I'm gonna

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Speaker 7: try to make this a habit forever, just because I

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Speaker 7: think it will change my relationship to just people on

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Speaker 7: the streets. Yeah, I don't mean people who are homeless.

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Speaker 8: I've just been like everybody around you, because especially like

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Speaker 8: if you're in a city, you kind of go through

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Speaker 8: the world waiting for someone to ask you for something,

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Speaker 8: and you have all those defenses up, and so those

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Speaker 8: defenses don't just operate against the people who are asking

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Speaker 8: you for money, they operate against everything. They're the enemy

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Speaker 8: of moving through the world in a good way, in

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Speaker 8: an open way.

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Speaker 1: So it opens up things a little bit. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: love this advice because it's so nicely tied to the

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Speaker 1: type of thing that we're doing. Would give directly, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: their whole deal is that they just give these cash transfers,

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Speaker 1: no questions asked, And the act of doing that means

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Speaker 1: you're not kind of thinking in ways where you're being

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Speaker 1: mistrustful and kind of like analyzing people. Like, first of all,

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Speaker 1: it's just like too much cognitive load of like, well,

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Speaker 1: what is this money going to go to? Is it

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Speaker 1: going to go to something good or whatever? But more

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Speaker 1: than the cognitive load, you just wind up thinking all

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Speaker 1: these bad theories about your fellow humans, right, Like they're

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Speaker 1: going to spend this on something terrible. They're gonna use

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Speaker 1: drugs or something like that. So just committing like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to give them money. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: trust that other people have good intentions of what they're

436
00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:38,356
Speaker 1: going to do with it. First of all, you get

437
00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:40,956
Speaker 1: the benefit that you get from giving, but also beyond that,

438
00:21:40,996 --> 00:21:43,716
Speaker 1: you don't have all this like yucky mistrust that comes

439
00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:45,796
Speaker 1: with like wondering what someone who's going to do with

440
00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,276
Speaker 1: the money. It's just like is a wonderful like cognitive

441
00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:54,036
Speaker 1: load reducer and like negative social contagion reducer. Correct. All correct.

442
00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:56,596
Speaker 8: So we'll see if I persist in this.

443
00:21:56,716 --> 00:21:59,756
Speaker 7: But this has been a little giving wrinkle in my life.

444
00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:02,996
Speaker 1: I hope Michael's tiny wrinkle grows into a big ridge,

445
00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:06,436
Speaker 1: a subtle shift that turns into real positive change for

446
00:22:06,556 --> 00:22:09,476
Speaker 1: Michael and for anyone feeling a little inspired by his

447
00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:12,636
Speaker 1: new giving tactic. And if you're a feeling newly inspired

448
00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:14,996
Speaker 1: to make a difference, you're a luck because you can

449
00:22:14,996 --> 00:22:17,756
Speaker 1: take part in our Pods Fight Poverty campaign right now.

450
00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:21,196
Speaker 1: Just had to give directly dot org slash Happiness lab

451
00:22:21,356 --> 00:22:24,396
Speaker 1: to give what you can. Next up is a story

452
00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:27,236
Speaker 1: of kindness from one of my former Yale students, a

453
00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:29,836
Speaker 1: fellow psychologist who was also the host of an award

454
00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:32,796
Speaker 1: winning podcast, plus is one of my dear friends.

455
00:22:33,196 --> 00:22:35,916
Speaker 6: Hey, I'm doctor Mayah Schunker and I'm the host of

456
00:22:36,116 --> 00:22:37,876
Speaker 6: A slight Change of Plans.

457
00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:42,356
Speaker 1: And so, Maya, what's your story of unexpected benefits of kindness?

458
00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,276
Speaker 6: My moment is actually one from elementary school.

459
00:22:46,396 --> 00:22:47,956
Speaker 1: So we're going way back for this one.

460
00:22:48,076 --> 00:22:51,756
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're going all the way back. I was bullied

461
00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:52,596
Speaker 6: a lot as a kid.

462
00:22:52,916 --> 00:22:55,676
Speaker 1: And wait, really, I'm surprised by this. Somehow I didn't

463
00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:56,276
Speaker 1: know this about you.

464
00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:59,316
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, Oh my god, so many tears, so

465
00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:00,276
Speaker 6: much anxiety.

466
00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:02,436
Speaker 1: Wait, who was your worst bully? Mine was? I won't

467
00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:05,156
Speaker 1: say her name, I'll say it was Jessica t She

468
00:23:05,276 --> 00:23:05,876
Speaker 1: was terrible.

469
00:23:06,316 --> 00:23:10,196
Speaker 6: Jacqueline Callen Lindsay it was a trio and Carly too.

470
00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:13,756
Speaker 6: But these were girls in my neighborhood that weren't super

471
00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,356
Speaker 6: nice to me, and it was really hard. At the time,

472
00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:19,076
Speaker 6: I just thought, oh, I'm a deeply flawed, broken person.

473
00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:23,276
Speaker 6: With some hindsight, I realized, oh, how interesting. I was

474
00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:25,956
Speaker 6: one of very very few kids of color in my

475
00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:28,076
Speaker 6: whole school. I wonder if maybe that played a role.

476
00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:32,476
Speaker 6: But regardless of what contributed to the meanness and the cruelty,

477
00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:37,436
Speaker 6: I spent my childhood feeling just really insecure and really

478
00:23:37,476 --> 00:23:40,716
Speaker 6: really anxious, and these bullies gave credence to my worst

479
00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:41,756
Speaker 6: fears about myself.

480
00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:44,116
Speaker 1: Was this like in the school yard, on the bus,

481
00:23:44,116 --> 00:23:44,996
Speaker 1: like where did this happen?

482
00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:45,596
Speaker 4: Oh my god?

483
00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:49,516
Speaker 6: Cafeteria so carly one day was like, you're so ugly,

484
00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:51,916
Speaker 6: it's painful for me to look at you, and then

485
00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:54,276
Speaker 6: got up and went to another table. There was another

486
00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:57,996
Speaker 6: episode in elementary school where the kids had decided in

487
00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:00,356
Speaker 6: advance that they were going to pretend I was invisible

488
00:24:00,356 --> 00:24:01,996
Speaker 6: that day. So when I went to go drink from

489
00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:04,356
Speaker 6: my milk cart and I lifted up, they were like, oh,

490
00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:06,716
Speaker 6: there's a milk cart and floating in the air. How funny.

491
00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:08,756
Speaker 6: And now there's a fork in the air, Like, oh

492
00:24:08,756 --> 00:24:11,996
Speaker 6: my god, I'm like the pretending I literally don't exist.

493
00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:13,836
Speaker 1: I want to like jump through the zoom and hug you.

494
00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:15,916
Speaker 1: But wait, how is this a story about kindness? I

495
00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:16,916
Speaker 1: just don't see where this is.

496
00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:20,796
Speaker 6: Okay, Sorry, sorry. So I was bullied a lot, and

497
00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:24,996
Speaker 6: there were a few kids that were so deeply kind

498
00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:29,556
Speaker 6: to me and weren't just nice behind the scenes, but

499
00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:32,876
Speaker 6: were advocates for me when it really mattered. So I

500
00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:36,236
Speaker 6: remember there was this one girl in my neighborhood named Adrian,

501
00:24:36,916 --> 00:24:37,556
Speaker 6: and we were on.

502
00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:38,076
Speaker 1: The school bus.

503
00:24:38,076 --> 00:24:39,876
Speaker 6: The school bus was brutal because like a lot of

504
00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:41,316
Speaker 6: the kids didn't want to sit next to me, so

505
00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:42,836
Speaker 6: it was a whole thing. It's like, we'd rather sit

506
00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:45,276
Speaker 6: five in a seat rather than sit next to Maya.

507
00:24:45,396 --> 00:24:49,076
Speaker 6: You know, kids are terrible, right, So I remember some

508
00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:52,196
Speaker 6: kids were saying some nasty things to me, and Adrian

509
00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:55,076
Speaker 6: stood up and was like, all of you guys, just

510
00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:55,716
Speaker 6: shut up.

511
00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:57,476
Speaker 1: Maya is awesome.

512
00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:02,796
Speaker 6: I just remember those words in little kid Maya's brain

513
00:25:03,236 --> 00:25:07,756
Speaker 6: were transformative, Like I had to transcendent experience in that moment,

514
00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:11,756
Speaker 6: and I I just remember being so moved by the

515
00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:14,476
Speaker 6: fact that she was willing to stand up and say

516
00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:16,236
Speaker 6: these things in front of the people that I was

517
00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:18,436
Speaker 6: really scared by because I'm not exactly the type of

518
00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:21,116
Speaker 6: person who would have fought back in those moments and

519
00:25:21,156 --> 00:25:24,396
Speaker 6: like really stood my ground. Instead, I thought, oh, I know,

520
00:25:24,796 --> 00:25:26,836
Speaker 6: let me try to kill them with kindness. Maybe that

521
00:25:26,876 --> 00:25:29,116
Speaker 6: will win over the bully. And that is clearly a

522
00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:32,236
Speaker 6: very losing strategy when it comes to engaging with bullies effectively.

523
00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:35,596
Speaker 6: So Adriane did this for me, and it really helped

524
00:25:35,676 --> 00:25:37,636
Speaker 6: change the landscape for me. It's not like the bullies

525
00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:41,236
Speaker 6: were suddenly nice, but I now felt like Adrienne was

526
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,116
Speaker 6: in my corner, and it changes your whole mentality when

527
00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:48,076
Speaker 6: you feel like even one person is on your team.

528
00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:52,476
Speaker 6: And I was fast forwarding decades to think about how

529
00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:56,196
Speaker 6: this had affected me as a person, and actually, Laurie,

530
00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:58,836
Speaker 6: it was a moment from my time at Yale, when

531
00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:02,396
Speaker 6: I was your undergrad student. There was a guy in

532
00:26:02,476 --> 00:26:05,596
Speaker 6: my dorm room who was being bullied because he was

533
00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:11,116
Speaker 6: suffering from depression and bipolar disorder and it didn't fit

534
00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:16,116
Speaker 6: with the kind of frat boy, machismo athlete vibe. I

535
00:26:16,156 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 6: guess that his social group entertained and they were so

536
00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:21,356
Speaker 6: cruel to him.

537
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:21,956
Speaker 4: They were so.

538
00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:25,396
Speaker 6: Mean, and I remember being like, I'm going to be

539
00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:29,516
Speaker 6: Adrian for him, for Noah, and I stood up to

540
00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:32,996
Speaker 6: those guys and I was like, you guys suck, and

541
00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:36,476
Speaker 6: Noah's amazing, and how dare you be so ignorant about

542
00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,156
Speaker 6: mental illness and those struggles. I even remember at a

543
00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:43,476
Speaker 6: reunion I gave this guy so much. I don't know

544
00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:45,756
Speaker 6: what a kosher word I can say on this podcast is,

545
00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:47,836
Speaker 6: but it was not a fun exchange, I'll say for

546
00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:49,156
Speaker 6: this other guy, because I was like, how could you

547
00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,916
Speaker 6: treat Noah like that? And I actually just got a

548
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:55,716
Speaker 6: text message from Noah a couple months ago saying, I

549
00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:58,036
Speaker 6: remember in college when I was going through such a

550
00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:02,156
Speaker 6: hard time, Maya, you were so on my side and

551
00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:04,836
Speaker 6: you were so nice to me, and it really touched

552
00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:07,036
Speaker 6: my heart that I could pay it forward like that

553
00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:09,436
Speaker 6: because I remember having been on the receiving end that

554
00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:11,516
Speaker 6: See I told you, Laurie, it had a happy ending.

555
00:27:11,596 --> 00:27:13,276
Speaker 1: Okay, that was good. I'm glad that at the ending

556
00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:15,276
Speaker 1: came up. It wasn't just like Maya getting tortured on

557
00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:15,556
Speaker 1: the bus.

558
00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:15,756
Speaker 6: No.

559
00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:18,916
Speaker 1: But I love this story because it shows like Adrian's

560
00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:21,836
Speaker 1: probably not sitting there thinking about like how she helped

561
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:24,436
Speaker 1: this one person in elementary school, but you right now

562
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:26,236
Speaker 1: are thinking about how that helped you to this day

563
00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:30,276
Speaker 1: and a decade after that. It was also helping somebody else,

564
00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:32,716
Speaker 1: like in college, And so we forget not just like

565
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:36,276
Speaker 1: how long our kind events wind up helping the people

566
00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:39,356
Speaker 1: that we do nice things for but also like how

567
00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:42,156
Speaker 1: many times these turn into like these cascades where like

568
00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:43,796
Speaker 1: more nice things happen over time.

569
00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:48,396
Speaker 6: Absolutely, they had these beautiful spillover effects, right. And there's

570
00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:52,316
Speaker 6: this concept in psychology called moral elevation, and it's basically

571
00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:55,196
Speaker 6: when you witness someone else's extraordinary actions. So it could

572
00:27:55,196 --> 00:27:58,756
Speaker 6: be their kindness, or their courage, or their self sacrifice,

573
00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:02,036
Speaker 6: or their ability to forgive other people, any character trait

574
00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:04,876
Speaker 6: that you find really amazing and impressive that can lead

575
00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:08,236
Speaker 6: to this warm, fuzzy feeling in your chest that makes

576
00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:11,076
Speaker 6: you feel like, wow, humans are capable of extraordinary things.

577
00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:15,956
Speaker 6: But importantly, when you experience moral elevation, it doesn't just

578
00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:19,756
Speaker 6: feel good, It actually changes your brain. When you see

579
00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:23,156
Speaker 6: someone challenge your understanding of the world and about what

580
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:26,556
Speaker 6: humans are capable of, it cracks open your own imagination

581
00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:29,396
Speaker 6: about what you are capable of. And I love that

582
00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:31,636
Speaker 6: insight because what it's done in my own life is

583
00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:35,476
Speaker 6: it's made me a more keen observer. So when I'm

584
00:28:35,516 --> 00:28:38,396
Speaker 6: walking in the coffee shop, I'll notice someone being extra

585
00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:41,556
Speaker 6: nice to the barista, or I'll notice that someone went

586
00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:43,516
Speaker 6: out of their way to smile at me. When I'm

587
00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,556
Speaker 6: going on a walk, and these moments feel so good

588
00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:50,396
Speaker 6: in the moment, but they also have these long lasting

589
00:28:50,436 --> 00:28:53,516
Speaker 6: effects on our psychology and our view of others and

590
00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:57,476
Speaker 6: importantly of ourselves and our potential our capabilities as people.

591
00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:00,076
Speaker 6: And so it's really enriched my life to see the

592
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:02,076
Speaker 6: world through a moral beauty lens.

593
00:29:02,396 --> 00:29:04,316
Speaker 1: This is such a great example. I feel like, especially

594
00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:07,116
Speaker 1: in winter when everything's feeling so dark and so glum,

595
00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:09,956
Speaker 1: that like they're just these examples of beauty and guidnance

596
00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:12,276
Speaker 1: out there that we can find, and that seeing them

597
00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:15,636
Speaker 1: isn't just like witnessing something that's beautiful, it's also changing us.

598
00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:18,996
Speaker 6: To exactly And yes, winter is dark, but also the

599
00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:21,196
Speaker 6: world like we're in a really dark place right now.

600
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:25,436
Speaker 6: It's very hard to stay hopeful and positive. And I

601
00:29:25,556 --> 00:29:29,796
Speaker 6: have just felt like reminding myself that actually humans are

602
00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:31,996
Speaker 6: so good at their core, because you can witness these

603
00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:35,116
Speaker 6: beautiful acts every single day, and that's in my control,

604
00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:36,756
Speaker 6: unlike so much else that's.

605
00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:37,436
Speaker 4: Happening in the world.

606
00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:41,436
Speaker 6: Is a wonderful way of reclaiming my agency and allowing

607
00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 6: myself moments of happiness, moments of joy in everyday life

608
00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:48,516
Speaker 6: against the backdrop of a lot of suffering. In the world,

609
00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:51,076
Speaker 6: you know, And so yeah, I've just been grateful for

610
00:29:51,116 --> 00:29:53,756
Speaker 6: the gift that we've gotten from science in the space

611
00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:54,636
Speaker 6: of moral elevation.

612
00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:57,316
Speaker 1: And if maya story has given you a moment of

613
00:29:57,356 --> 00:30:00,436
Speaker 1: moral elevation, remember that you can choose to become an

614
00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:03,276
Speaker 1: Adrian too. You can do that by joining me and

615
00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:06,116
Speaker 1: dozens of other podcasters as part of the Pods Fight

616
00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:10,116
Speaker 1: Poverty campaign. Why not donate five bucks right now by

617
00:30:10,156 --> 00:30:13,916
Speaker 1: heading to give directly dot org slash happiness Lab. That's

618
00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:17,996
Speaker 1: GiveDirectly dot org slash happiness Lab. It's time for a break,

619
00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:20,476
Speaker 1: but when we return, I'll get to share my own

620
00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:23,596
Speaker 1: story of the power of giving and how four words

621
00:30:23,596 --> 00:30:26,476
Speaker 1: that I quickly scribbled nearly twenty years ago said a

622
00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 1: little girl on the path to becoming an aerospace engineer.

623
00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. Welcome back to

624
00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:45,636
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab special Giving Tuesday episode. Today we're exploring

625
00:30:45,756 --> 00:30:49,156
Speaker 1: just how much we underestimate the psychological power of small

626
00:30:49,156 --> 00:30:52,196
Speaker 1: acts of generosity. And the next story is one that

627
00:30:52,276 --> 00:30:54,836
Speaker 1: really hits home for me because the person in this

628
00:30:54,916 --> 00:30:57,716
Speaker 1: story doing all that underestimating of the power of giving

629
00:30:58,356 --> 00:30:58,556
Speaker 1: was me.

630
00:30:59,556 --> 00:31:02,796
Speaker 4: So in two thousand and eight. I was six years old.

631
00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:05,756
Speaker 1: This is Avery Miller, and.

632
00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:08,796
Speaker 9: I didn't know too much, you know, about the world,

633
00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:11,756
Speaker 9: but I knew that I wanted to be an astronaut

634
00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:13,756
Speaker 9: because I'd read books about them, I'd seen them on

635
00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:16,676
Speaker 9: TIV and my parents were very encouraging of all of that.

636
00:31:17,036 --> 00:31:19,996
Speaker 9: And my mom realized there was an event called World

637
00:31:20,036 --> 00:31:21,156
Speaker 9: Science Festival.

638
00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:25,316
Speaker 1: The World Science Festival is a multimedia science education organization

639
00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:27,996
Speaker 1: that began as an annual event in New York City

640
00:31:28,156 --> 00:31:30,836
Speaker 1: to make science fun and accessible to the general public.

641
00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:35,356
Speaker 1: Big panels and talks, interactive exhibits, and kid friendly games.

642
00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:38,276
Speaker 1: Avery's mom thought her daughter would love it, so the

643
00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:40,876
Speaker 1: Millers decided to take the four hour trek from their

644
00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:42,716
Speaker 1: home in Boston to New York City.

645
00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:45,116
Speaker 9: So we went to the festival and there's a lot

646
00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:48,036
Speaker 9: of really cool outside stuff and you know, the typical

647
00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:48,956
Speaker 9: kid activities.

648
00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:51,436
Speaker 4: But my mom was like, you know, I think.

649
00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:54,996
Speaker 9: Avery would really love going to some talks, which an

650
00:31:55,036 --> 00:31:57,156
Speaker 9: insane thing to think about a six year old, but

651
00:31:57,836 --> 00:31:58,556
Speaker 9: that's my mom.

652
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:02,196
Speaker 4: So we went to quite a few talks, but I

653
00:32:02,196 --> 00:32:05,476
Speaker 4: think there were mostly men, so not really role models.

654
00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:08,116
Speaker 1: That's when Avery stumbled on a panel that would change

655
00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:12,196
Speaker 1: her life forever. It was called Cool Jobs, where scientists

656
00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:14,996
Speaker 1: shared the cool questions they explored and the fun places

657
00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:18,196
Speaker 1: they got to work. There was a Disney imagineer, a

658
00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:21,916
Speaker 1: forensics expert who used science to solve crimes, and an

659
00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:25,436
Speaker 1: early career psychologist whose name you might recognize if you're

660
00:32:25,476 --> 00:32:26,236
Speaker 1: a fan of the show.

661
00:32:26,516 --> 00:32:28,916
Speaker 10: She spends a lot of time thinking about how we

662
00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:32,396
Speaker 10: think and how we play and how we fall in

663
00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:36,956
Speaker 10: love by hiking through the jungles of Puerto Rico watching monkeys.

664
00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:40,116
Speaker 10: Please allarim, welcome for doctor Lori Santos.

665
00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:45,996
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, thanks for having me today. So I'm going

666
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:47,676
Speaker 1: to tell you a little bit about a job that

667
00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:49,716
Speaker 1: I bet many of you are thinking about, and that's

668
00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:53,036
Speaker 1: the kind of job that's involved with working with animals,

669
00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:56,716
Speaker 1: so fun fact, long before I began studying happiness, I

670
00:32:56,756 --> 00:32:59,196
Speaker 1: spent a lot of my early career trying to understand

671
00:32:59,196 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 1: the human mind by studying the cosmative abilities of monkeys.

672
00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:05,476
Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and eight, I was asked to

673
00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:07,996
Speaker 1: talk about that primate work on the Cool Jobs panel

674
00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:11,556
Speaker 1: at the World Science The organizers of the panel assumed

675
00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:13,756
Speaker 1: it would be of interest to college students thinking about

676
00:33:13,756 --> 00:33:16,716
Speaker 1: their future careers. But what we didn't expect was to

677
00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,796
Speaker 1: have so many little kids in the audience, little kids

678
00:33:19,796 --> 00:33:22,396
Speaker 1: who were apparently very impressed that there were jobs where

679
00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 1: you could hang out with monkeys, little kids just like Avery.

680
00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:28,116
Speaker 9: I was like, you get to be outside, you get

681
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:31,796
Speaker 9: to do science. And that was sort of a mind

682
00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:34,716
Speaker 9: blowing moment of like, oh my god, there's someone like

683
00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:38,316
Speaker 9: me who's doing all this really cool stuff. And my mom,

684
00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:40,756
Speaker 9: again being really cool, was like, well, let's go.

685
00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:41,276
Speaker 4: Talk to her.

686
00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:45,796
Speaker 1: Avery's mom wasn't the only audience member to have that ideas.

687
00:33:45,836 --> 00:33:49,036
Speaker 1: The New York Times would later report quote after the event,

688
00:33:49,116 --> 00:33:52,236
Speaker 1: doctor Santo's was mobbed by a group of children curious

689
00:33:52,316 --> 00:33:55,996
Speaker 1: about what she calls monkey magic tricks. I spent over

690
00:33:56,036 --> 00:33:58,716
Speaker 1: an hour after that panel sitting on stage talking with

691
00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:01,396
Speaker 1: kids about my work, and one of those kids was

692
00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:03,356
Speaker 1: an eager little girl named Avery.

693
00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:05,596
Speaker 9: So I went up and I think I told you

694
00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:07,996
Speaker 9: all about how I wanted to be an astronaut and

695
00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:10,836
Speaker 9: how I wanted to go to because you know, growing

696
00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:12,996
Speaker 9: up in Boston, if you want to do science, you

697
00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:15,796
Speaker 9: want to go to MIT. And we didn't have anything

698
00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:18,396
Speaker 9: for you to sign except for the back of the

699
00:34:18,436 --> 00:34:21,916
Speaker 9: ticket on the email my mom printed out, so you

700
00:34:21,996 --> 00:34:22,556
Speaker 9: signed it.

701
00:34:22,956 --> 00:34:24,476
Speaker 4: I have it here if you want to see it.

702
00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, can you hold it up?

703
00:34:26,196 --> 00:34:26,596
Speaker 4: Yeah?

704
00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:28,196
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we'ld like go monkey drawing.

705
00:34:28,476 --> 00:34:28,996
Speaker 7: That's yeah.

706
00:34:29,076 --> 00:34:29,396
Speaker 1: Exit.

707
00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:34,116
Speaker 9: So I drew monkeys on it as you can see,

708
00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:37,036
Speaker 9: which I'm sure my mom told me not to. But

709
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:40,116
Speaker 9: you wrote have fun at MIT, Love Laurie, and I

710
00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:43,036
Speaker 9: was like, this is the coolest thing ever a scientist

711
00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:45,996
Speaker 9: thinks I can be a scientist. We framed it and

712
00:34:46,036 --> 00:34:48,836
Speaker 9: then I put it on my desk, and then I

713
00:34:48,876 --> 00:34:51,196
Speaker 9: guess I never moved it off my desk.

714
00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:53,396
Speaker 4: I mean, like I look at it all the time.

715
00:34:53,876 --> 00:34:55,836
Speaker 9: In high school, I'd sit there and do my homework,

716
00:34:55,876 --> 00:34:58,076
Speaker 9: and so it's like, you know what this means, I

717
00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:00,276
Speaker 9: can do it. You know, as much as I hated

718
00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:02,076
Speaker 9: chemistry at the time, Okay, I got to get the

719
00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:03,956
Speaker 9: chemistry done because I'm going to go to MIT.

720
00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:07,076
Speaker 4: So it was just this constant little reminder that like,

721
00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:08,076
Speaker 4: I could do that.

722
00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:10,996
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so funny. I signed lots of things

723
00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:12,716
Speaker 1: for lots of folks, and just the idea that they

724
00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:14,556
Speaker 1: would keep them is really cool. But also does that

725
00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:16,356
Speaker 1: it turned into an inspiration for you.

726
00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:20,396
Speaker 9: I failed a class, almost failed a class in the

727
00:35:20,476 --> 00:35:22,916
Speaker 9: eighth grade and it was science, and I was like,

728
00:35:23,596 --> 00:35:24,956
Speaker 9: that means I.

729
00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:27,996
Speaker 4: Can't do it, because if everyone looks at.

730
00:35:27,876 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 9: You as the science kid and you're going around failing

731
00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:33,596
Speaker 9: science classes, it's hard. So I looked at it and

732
00:35:33,596 --> 00:35:35,796
Speaker 9: I was like, you know what, someone says that I

733
00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:38,276
Speaker 9: can do it. I saw someone else do it. You know,

734
00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:40,276
Speaker 9: there were a lot of people rooting me on, but

735
00:35:40,996 --> 00:35:43,636
Speaker 9: I had this thing from such a young age. One

736
00:35:43,676 --> 00:35:45,636
Speaker 9: person telling you can do it when you didn't even

737
00:35:45,636 --> 00:35:50,556
Speaker 9: know that was an option is perhaps more meaningful. So, yeah,

738
00:35:50,596 --> 00:35:53,756
Speaker 9: it was a big deal to me then. It's still

739
00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:55,836
Speaker 9: a big deal to me now. I had it on

740
00:35:55,836 --> 00:35:58,196
Speaker 9: my desk all through college, all the dorms I lived in.

741
00:35:58,596 --> 00:36:00,396
Speaker 9: I have it now that I live on my own.

742
00:36:00,876 --> 00:36:03,436
Speaker 9: It's just always lived on my desk. It's always just

743
00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:06,236
Speaker 9: been there. I also have a Sally Ride picture, though,

744
00:36:06,316 --> 00:36:07,556
Speaker 9: so you're up there with her.

745
00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:11,196
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Sounds like you wound up going to college.

746
00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:13,396
Speaker 1: Did you end up going to MIT or what happened?

747
00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:17,196
Speaker 9: Yeah, So by senior year I realized that I did

748
00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:19,556
Speaker 9: not want to go to MIT. Mit is great, but

749
00:36:19,756 --> 00:36:22,716
Speaker 9: it wasn't the right fit. I ended up going to Purdue.

750
00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:24,916
Speaker 9: I became an aerospace engineer.

751
00:36:25,196 --> 00:36:28,356
Speaker 1: Wait, like, mind boggling, Like you became an aerospace engineer.

752
00:36:28,476 --> 00:36:31,876
Speaker 1: That's so cool. I reconnected with Avery and learned about

753
00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:33,836
Speaker 1: her story when she sent me an email out of

754
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,876
Speaker 1: the blue thanking me for being such an inspiration to her.

755
00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:39,836
Speaker 1: She wrote in her letter, you took the time to

756
00:36:39,876 --> 00:36:42,436
Speaker 1: speak to me, learn my name, and just made me

757
00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:45,596
Speaker 1: feel like no matter what I could do it. Thank

758
00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:48,436
Speaker 1: you for being an inspiration in six year old me's life.

759
00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:50,996
Speaker 1: I know that you carved the way for this field

760
00:36:51,036 --> 00:36:53,196
Speaker 1: to be one that women like me can thrive in.

761
00:36:54,316 --> 00:36:58,636
Speaker 1: I mean, wow. I had no idea that scribbling those

762
00:36:58,676 --> 00:37:01,556
Speaker 1: four little words nearly twenty years ago would have had

763
00:37:01,636 --> 00:37:05,116
Speaker 1: such an impact on someone's life. I also didn't realize

764
00:37:05,116 --> 00:37:08,076
Speaker 1: that those words would ripple into the next generation of

765
00:37:08,116 --> 00:37:08,876
Speaker 1: scientists too.

766
00:37:09,436 --> 00:37:11,596
Speaker 9: I think one of the things that I learned and

767
00:37:11,636 --> 00:37:13,756
Speaker 9: I really appreciated when I met you when I was

768
00:37:13,956 --> 00:37:16,116
Speaker 9: young was that you didn't talk to me like I.

769
00:37:16,036 --> 00:37:16,756
Speaker 4: Was a little kid.

770
00:37:17,156 --> 00:37:20,396
Speaker 9: I never felt like someone was talking down to me,

771
00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:23,916
Speaker 9: which I think in stem we have a tendency to

772
00:37:23,996 --> 00:37:27,276
Speaker 9: do when people don't understand stuff. I think it was Einstein,

773
00:37:27,316 --> 00:37:29,116
Speaker 9: though I could be misquoting, who said if you can't

774
00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:31,236
Speaker 9: explain it to a five year old, you don't understand it.

775
00:37:31,796 --> 00:37:34,716
Speaker 9: There's something to be said for approaching someone on their level.

776
00:37:34,956 --> 00:37:36,756
Speaker 9: That's how people can hold on and be like, wow,

777
00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:39,556
Speaker 9: I really do want to learn more. It definitely makes

778
00:37:39,596 --> 00:37:41,916
Speaker 9: me think about how I'm giving my time, because, like

779
00:37:42,356 --> 00:37:44,516
Speaker 9: I mentor middle schoolers and I'm like, maybe one day

780
00:37:44,516 --> 00:37:46,796
Speaker 9: one of these middle schoolers will reach out and you know,

781
00:37:46,916 --> 00:37:49,596
Speaker 9: same sort of thing of like, oh, you impacted me,

782
00:37:49,836 --> 00:37:51,076
Speaker 9: so who knows.

783
00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:53,076
Speaker 1: Look at you? The six year old has become an

784
00:37:53,116 --> 00:37:56,236
Speaker 1: adult now, I know. I mean one of the reasons

785
00:37:56,236 --> 00:37:58,356
Speaker 1: the story is so compelling for me also just that like,

786
00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:00,436
Speaker 1: I affected someone who's so cool and doing such cool

787
00:38:00,436 --> 00:38:01,796
Speaker 1: stuff now was just amazing.

788
00:38:01,956 --> 00:38:04,676
Speaker 9: The fact that someone who speaks to John Green thinks

789
00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:07,076
Speaker 9: I'm cool is possibly the coolest thing ever.

790
00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:11,276
Speaker 1: I'm sure you would think you're cool too, but I mean,

791
00:38:11,476 --> 00:38:14,116
Speaker 1: it's just like, you just have these short interactions in

792
00:38:14,196 --> 00:38:17,196
Speaker 1: life where you don't necessarily realize how much you're affecting people.

793
00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:19,436
Speaker 1: And I think if you can have those interactions in

794
00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:22,676
Speaker 1: a way that are like positive or encouraging. We just

795
00:38:22,716 --> 00:38:24,436
Speaker 1: like don't know the ripple effect of the kind of

796
00:38:24,436 --> 00:38:26,676
Speaker 1: thing that we can do to other people. And so

797
00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,436
Speaker 1: it was just such a reminder of like, oh my gosh,

798
00:38:29,676 --> 00:38:32,076
Speaker 1: I can have this like incredibly long standing, like you know,

799
00:38:32,156 --> 00:38:34,756
Speaker 1: twenty year ish positive effect and I might not be

800
00:38:34,796 --> 00:38:36,196
Speaker 1: realizing I could do that right now.

801
00:38:36,516 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 9: And also the fact that I can reconnect with you

802
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,796
Speaker 9: after twenty years and it still be something meaningful.

803
00:38:42,076 --> 00:38:44,036
Speaker 1: I'm curious, was there a moment that you decided to

804
00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:46,756
Speaker 1: reach back out, Like, was there like a catalyst of

805
00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:48,396
Speaker 1: why you decided to reach out when you did.

806
00:38:49,476 --> 00:38:51,636
Speaker 4: I'm hoping to go back to school eventually.

807
00:38:52,236 --> 00:38:56,396
Speaker 9: So I've been studying for exams, and sometimes you have

808
00:38:56,556 --> 00:38:58,436
Speaker 9: just a day where you're looking at your exam book

809
00:38:58,476 --> 00:39:00,556
Speaker 9: and you're like, there is no way that I can

810
00:39:00,676 --> 00:39:01,316
Speaker 9: keep doing this.

811
00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:03,556
Speaker 4: There's no way I can keep answering problems.

812
00:39:03,836 --> 00:39:06,596
Speaker 9: And I looked at the note, which again sits on

813
00:39:06,756 --> 00:39:08,556
Speaker 9: my desk all the time, so I'm looking at it,

814
00:39:08,596 --> 00:39:10,516
Speaker 9: and I'm like, you know, I should really reach out

815
00:39:10,556 --> 00:39:12,916
Speaker 9: to her and tell her that this is impactful.

816
00:39:13,196 --> 00:39:15,316
Speaker 1: This really just like blew my mind, and really just

817
00:39:15,476 --> 00:39:17,116
Speaker 1: even this conversation I feel like my face is going

818
00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,476
Speaker 1: to hurt from smiling after talking about.

819
00:39:19,516 --> 00:39:20,996
Speaker 4: Me as well, which is a great thing.

820
00:39:22,516 --> 00:39:25,276
Speaker 1: Avery's story is a powerful example of how a few

821
00:39:25,356 --> 00:39:29,236
Speaker 1: simple words can shape someone's life in unimaginable ways. But

822
00:39:29,316 --> 00:39:31,876
Speaker 1: it also shows how absolutely great it feels to be

823
00:39:31,956 --> 00:39:35,636
Speaker 1: the person who gives that small act of kindness. And yet,

824
00:39:35,836 --> 00:39:38,796
Speaker 1: even when we know these small gestures matter, most of

825
00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:42,036
Speaker 1: us still struggle to actually do them. We put off

826
00:39:42,036 --> 00:39:45,356
Speaker 1: reaching out, we delay helping, we wait for the right

827
00:39:45,436 --> 00:39:48,556
Speaker 1: time to give. Why do we procrastinate on doing the

828
00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:51,156
Speaker 1: very thing that will make us and other people feel

829
00:39:51,196 --> 00:39:54,476
Speaker 1: so good? To find out? I tagged in our final

830
00:39:54,516 --> 00:39:58,356
Speaker 1: podcast host guest, a behavioral scientist who has studied this

831
00:39:58,516 --> 00:40:01,516
Speaker 1: exact problem. Katie, do you want to start by introducing yourself?

832
00:40:01,996 --> 00:40:02,916
Speaker 2: I'd be delighted.

833
00:40:03,036 --> 00:40:05,076
Speaker 11: My name is Katie Milkman, and I am a professor

834
00:40:05,076 --> 00:40:07,836
Speaker 11: at the Wharton School, host of the podcast Choiceology, and

835
00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:09,196
Speaker 11: author of the book How to Change.

836
00:40:09,636 --> 00:40:12,036
Speaker 1: So, Katie, we've just heard all these amazing things that

837
00:40:12,116 --> 00:40:14,556
Speaker 1: happen when people are nice to each other and do

838
00:40:14,716 --> 00:40:17,436
Speaker 1: nice things for each other, including with money. We've also

839
00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:19,596
Speaker 1: just heard not just what happens to the people who

840
00:40:19,676 --> 00:40:22,036
Speaker 1: receive these wonderful things, but also what happens to you,

841
00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:25,036
Speaker 1: the donor in terms of your happiness and how great

842
00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:28,116
Speaker 1: you feel. But the problem is that our minds are stupid,

843
00:40:28,156 --> 00:40:30,036
Speaker 1: and sometimes we can know all this stuff and still

844
00:40:30,076 --> 00:40:32,676
Speaker 1: not put it into practice. This is the kind of

845
00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:35,396
Speaker 1: thing that you study, right, Yes, although I.

846
00:40:35,356 --> 00:40:37,396
Speaker 11: Wouldn't say our minds are stupid. I think our minds

847
00:40:37,396 --> 00:40:40,676
Speaker 11: are incredible, but they're constantly taking shortcuts and they're sort

848
00:40:40,676 --> 00:40:45,436
Speaker 11: of wired for situations that don't always optimize our current

849
00:40:46,076 --> 00:40:47,556
Speaker 11: environment in the modern era.

850
00:40:47,716 --> 00:40:49,116
Speaker 4: So, like, the mind is amazing.

851
00:40:49,116 --> 00:40:51,036
Speaker 1: I don't want to denigrate the model. Okay, yeah, no,

852
00:40:51,036 --> 00:40:51,996
Speaker 1: nodice to the mind.

853
00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:52,396
Speaker 4: Great.

854
00:40:52,476 --> 00:40:54,996
Speaker 1: You know, we're walking around really smart primates, built the

855
00:40:55,036 --> 00:40:58,356
Speaker 1: Internet all this stuff, But we sometimes forget the importance

856
00:40:58,396 --> 00:41:00,396
Speaker 1: of doing for other people, like when it comes to

857
00:41:00,396 --> 00:41:02,036
Speaker 1: our social connection. I think this is a spot where

858
00:41:02,036 --> 00:41:04,236
Speaker 1: we really get it wrong. Yeah, no, absolutely.

859
00:41:04,236 --> 00:41:07,516
Speaker 11: We don't anticipate how good it will feel to you know,

860
00:41:07,556 --> 00:41:10,676
Speaker 11: engage in conversations and game and gift giving, just be

861
00:41:10,876 --> 00:41:13,516
Speaker 11: kind to others in a wide variety of ways. We

862
00:41:13,556 --> 00:41:16,756
Speaker 11: don't realize how much that will actually generate happiness for us.

863
00:41:17,596 --> 00:41:19,276
Speaker 1: Our minds are also stupid in that we just like

864
00:41:19,436 --> 00:41:21,796
Speaker 1: forget stuff. Like I'm guessing a lot of people right

865
00:41:21,836 --> 00:41:24,156
Speaker 1: now are like, oh my gosh, it's a great opportunity

866
00:41:24,236 --> 00:41:27,156
Speaker 1: to give directly, but like you actually have to do that,

867
00:41:27,396 --> 00:41:29,796
Speaker 1: and like forgetfulness and friction is bad.

868
00:41:30,196 --> 00:41:30,556
Speaker 4: That's right.

869
00:41:30,636 --> 00:41:33,636
Speaker 11: Yeah, follow through is one of the main barriers to

870
00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:37,476
Speaker 11: change that I have studied, Like we need to remind people,

871
00:41:37,516 --> 00:41:39,116
Speaker 11: we need to catch them in a moment when they

872
00:41:39,116 --> 00:41:41,596
Speaker 11: can take action. And actually this relates to some research

873
00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:44,276
Speaker 11: I did a number of years ago related to giving.

874
00:41:44,396 --> 00:41:47,076
Speaker 11: So this was a project led by Amanda Schwan, who's

875
00:41:47,076 --> 00:41:49,596
Speaker 11: an amazing professor at Michigan State, and also with my

876
00:41:49,636 --> 00:41:51,716
Speaker 11: colleague here, Jed Kessler, where we were able to get

877
00:41:51,836 --> 00:41:56,156
Speaker 11: data from the University of Pennsylvania's hospital system on asks

878
00:41:56,196 --> 00:41:59,756
Speaker 11: they made to pass patients to give. Right. So, you've

879
00:41:59,796 --> 00:42:02,956
Speaker 11: had experience with the University of Pennsylvanian hospital system. You

880
00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:05,636
Speaker 11: were here in patient for some sort of service or treatment.

881
00:42:05,996 --> 00:42:07,676
Speaker 11: You have to stay overnight, right that's kind of a

882
00:42:07,676 --> 00:42:09,756
Speaker 11: big deal, or you're checked into the hospital. So you're

883
00:42:09,796 --> 00:42:12,156
Speaker 11: probably feeling a lot of gratitude right now, and you

884
00:42:12,196 --> 00:42:15,356
Speaker 11: have an opportunity when the university asks would you give

885
00:42:15,396 --> 00:42:18,676
Speaker 11: to this hospital system? You have an opportunity to express

886
00:42:18,716 --> 00:42:21,876
Speaker 11: that gratitude. The data we got allowed us to look

887
00:42:21,916 --> 00:42:25,276
Speaker 11: at whether or not those mailings came right away or

888
00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:27,396
Speaker 11: at a time delay, because they send them in batches

889
00:42:27,436 --> 00:42:28,276
Speaker 11: every few months.

890
00:42:28,516 --> 00:42:30,836
Speaker 1: So if the batch send happens to.

891
00:42:30,836 --> 00:42:33,956
Speaker 11: Occur just a couple of weeks after you leave the hospital,

892
00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:35,756
Speaker 11: you're going to get it real quickly. But if it

893
00:42:35,796 --> 00:42:38,036
Speaker 11: happens a few months later, well then it's going to

894
00:42:38,036 --> 00:42:40,476
Speaker 11: be a long time after your inpatients day that you're

895
00:42:40,476 --> 00:42:42,436
Speaker 11: going to be asked would you be willing to reciprocate

896
00:42:42,476 --> 00:42:44,756
Speaker 11: and make it a donation. And what was interesting is

897
00:42:44,756 --> 00:42:46,996
Speaker 11: that we found a pretty steep decay. So if we

898
00:42:47,076 --> 00:42:50,156
Speaker 11: hit you right after you've had this positive experience, you're

899
00:42:50,236 --> 00:42:52,756
Speaker 11: much more likely to give your feeling still that warmth

900
00:42:52,796 --> 00:42:55,956
Speaker 11: and gratitude and remembering how meaningful it was to be

901
00:42:56,036 --> 00:42:59,476
Speaker 11: taken care of. Whereas if a little time passes the

902
00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:02,556
Speaker 11: hot state, the sort of warmth and the reciprocity feelings,

903
00:43:02,596 --> 00:43:06,996
Speaker 11: those positive feelings that generate the decision to give those

904
00:43:07,036 --> 00:43:10,956
Speaker 11: are what's decaying and also presumably suggests that you're not

905
00:43:10,996 --> 00:43:14,836
Speaker 11: going to feel as good about making that reciprocal gesture

906
00:43:15,316 --> 00:43:19,076
Speaker 11: if your strong feelings have dissipated and you wait. So

907
00:43:19,156 --> 00:43:20,956
Speaker 11: one of the things I think that teaches us about

908
00:43:20,996 --> 00:43:24,196
Speaker 11: giving is generally when we are remembering, when we're in

909
00:43:24,236 --> 00:43:26,116
Speaker 11: that hot state, when we realize how good it will

910
00:43:26,116 --> 00:43:28,276
Speaker 11: make us feel, like, take action right away. Don't let

911
00:43:28,276 --> 00:43:31,876
Speaker 11: that moment slip. And I think more similarly in so

912
00:43:32,076 --> 00:43:34,676
Speaker 11: many parts of your life, like when you're feeling gratitude

913
00:43:34,716 --> 00:43:37,556
Speaker 11: to someone, or when you've had a really positive experience

914
00:43:37,596 --> 00:43:40,236
Speaker 11: and you want to make sure you don't forget to

915
00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:43,956
Speaker 11: tell someone you know, you were a great professor, Laurie,

916
00:43:43,996 --> 00:43:45,996
Speaker 11: and I'm so grateful for this thing you did, or

917
00:43:46,196 --> 00:43:49,276
Speaker 11: you know, thank you for mentoring me, whatever it is,

918
00:43:49,716 --> 00:43:53,516
Speaker 11: express that gratitude immediately, because you're going to forget if

919
00:43:53,556 --> 00:43:56,036
Speaker 11: you let the moment pass. And I think, you know,

920
00:43:56,076 --> 00:43:58,436
Speaker 11: one of the things I've studied in my research in

921
00:43:58,476 --> 00:44:01,676
Speaker 11: other domains is just that our motivation in general waxes

922
00:44:01,716 --> 00:44:03,116
Speaker 11: and wanes like over time.

923
00:44:03,396 --> 00:44:03,556
Speaker 10: Right.

924
00:44:03,596 --> 00:44:05,996
Speaker 11: We years ago did an episode together, Laurie about some

925
00:44:06,036 --> 00:44:08,356
Speaker 11: of my work with Hanschen Dai of UCLA on the

926
00:44:08,356 --> 00:44:10,796
Speaker 11: fresh start effect, that there are these moments when we're

927
00:44:10,796 --> 00:44:13,156
Speaker 11: more motivated to make a change in our lives. And

928
00:44:13,196 --> 00:44:15,316
Speaker 11: I think that's just part of a bigger process, Like

929
00:44:15,476 --> 00:44:17,796
Speaker 11: we don't walk around the world with like constant flat

930
00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:18,276
Speaker 11: states of.

931
00:44:18,276 --> 00:44:19,356
Speaker 4: Emotion and motivation.

932
00:44:19,636 --> 00:44:22,676
Speaker 11: We're moving all over the place, and capitalizing on the

933
00:44:22,716 --> 00:44:26,036
Speaker 11: hot state feelings is important to doing the things that

934
00:44:26,036 --> 00:44:27,356
Speaker 11: are good for us in the long run, that are

935
00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:28,596
Speaker 11: good for our relationships and our.

936
00:44:28,516 --> 00:44:30,996
Speaker 1: Happiness, because whenever we do it, we're going to feel

937
00:44:31,036 --> 00:44:33,116
Speaker 1: good doing that. Right in your fresh start work where

938
00:44:33,116 --> 00:44:35,436
Speaker 1: you looking when when do people start exercising? Whatever you

939
00:44:35,436 --> 00:44:37,996
Speaker 1: get the exercise habit going, that's going to have benefits

940
00:44:38,036 --> 00:44:40,836
Speaker 1: for you whenever you actually get the gift done. The

941
00:44:41,076 --> 00:44:44,036
Speaker 1: kind words said, you're going to experience benefit. But if

942
00:44:44,036 --> 00:44:45,916
Speaker 1: you wait and the motivation goes away, then you're never

943
00:44:45,956 --> 00:44:47,596
Speaker 1: going to wind up getting those benefits.

944
00:44:47,876 --> 00:44:48,436
Speaker 4: Exactly.

945
00:44:48,756 --> 00:44:51,116
Speaker 1: So, if someone's listening to this right now and they're thinking,

946
00:44:51,156 --> 00:44:53,116
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I want to give, to give directly,

947
00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:55,756
Speaker 1: how do they lock it in? Do they like, pause

948
00:44:55,796 --> 00:44:56,716
Speaker 1: the episode and just go do.

949
00:44:56,676 --> 00:44:57,476
Speaker 4: A pos the episode?

950
00:44:57,516 --> 00:44:59,436
Speaker 11: Do it right now, Do not wait? That's right, because

951
00:44:59,476 --> 00:45:02,476
Speaker 11: that feeling will decay faster than you realize. And so

952
00:45:02,636 --> 00:45:04,916
Speaker 11: this is the moment to do it. Don't wait, don't delay.

953
00:45:05,076 --> 00:45:06,796
Speaker 11: You think you're going to do it tomorrow, but you won't,

954
00:45:07,116 --> 00:45:08,036
Speaker 11: so do it right now.

955
00:45:08,716 --> 00:45:21,116
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to do a pause, so hopefully during

956
00:45:21,116 --> 00:45:23,596
Speaker 1: that little audio break, so folks pause the episode and

957
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:25,916
Speaker 1: actually gave to give directly. But I'm guessing some folks

958
00:45:26,076 --> 00:45:29,316
Speaker 1: maybe couldn't do it immediately. Are there other social science

959
00:45:29,316 --> 00:45:31,636
Speaker 1: hacks we can use if we're motivated right now, but

960
00:45:31,676 --> 00:45:34,036
Speaker 1: we can actually hit like send immediately.

961
00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:34,636
Speaker 4: Yeah?

962
00:45:34,636 --> 00:45:35,116
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

963
00:45:35,116 --> 00:45:37,156
Speaker 11: Maybe you're driving right now, but you can talk to

964
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:40,116
Speaker 11: a virtual assistant in your phone. You might ask it

965
00:45:40,236 --> 00:45:43,156
Speaker 11: to put a calendar alert in your calendar for later

966
00:45:43,196 --> 00:45:45,196
Speaker 11: today when you know you might have a moment, to

967
00:45:45,316 --> 00:45:48,316
Speaker 11: remind you to follow through and choose a specific time.

968
00:45:48,356 --> 00:45:51,116
Speaker 11: You could also ask that virtual assistant to send a ping,

969
00:45:51,476 --> 00:45:54,116
Speaker 11: a text, or an email to someone who can hold

970
00:45:54,156 --> 00:45:56,596
Speaker 11: you accountable and check in and say, hey, please ask

971
00:45:56,676 --> 00:46:01,356
Speaker 11: me when you see me, partner, roommate, friend tomorrow if

972
00:46:01,396 --> 00:46:03,996
Speaker 11: I've followed through on my pledge to give to give directly.

973
00:46:04,076 --> 00:46:07,036
Speaker 11: We know that social accountability and making concrete plans with

974
00:46:07,076 --> 00:46:09,756
Speaker 11: reminders are two ways we can hold our few yourself

975
00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:12,436
Speaker 11: to account for the things we want to get done.

976
00:46:12,636 --> 00:46:15,676
Speaker 1: And I especially love the social accountability suggestion because that

977
00:46:15,716 --> 00:46:18,116
Speaker 1: gives us a little bit of social connection and maybe,

978
00:46:18,196 --> 00:46:21,396
Speaker 1: just maybe that partner, friend, roommate might also donate to

979
00:46:21,396 --> 00:46:23,796
Speaker 1: give directly and get a little happiness boost themselves.

980
00:46:24,236 --> 00:46:26,756
Speaker 11: I love that perfect Yes, ask them to both nag

981
00:46:26,876 --> 00:46:28,076
Speaker 11: you and to give themselves.

982
00:46:29,036 --> 00:46:30,796
Speaker 1: Love this, Katie. Thank you so much for helping us

983
00:46:30,876 --> 00:46:33,116
Speaker 1: try to figure out how we can use our biases

984
00:46:33,156 --> 00:46:34,676
Speaker 1: to feel better and do better in the world.

985
00:46:34,876 --> 00:46:37,116
Speaker 11: Thanks so much for having me and for putting together

986
00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:40,076
Speaker 11: this wonderful compilation. I love gift directly and I'm really

987
00:46:40,116 --> 00:46:40,836
Speaker 11: excited about it.

988
00:46:41,596 --> 00:46:44,996
Speaker 1: Even small acts of generosity, a moment of encouragement, a

989
00:46:45,036 --> 00:46:47,996
Speaker 1: few kind words, ten bucks donated to a good cause

990
00:46:48,356 --> 00:46:51,756
Speaker 1: can have incredible ripple effects. And the sooner you act

991
00:46:51,796 --> 00:46:55,676
Speaker 1: on a charitable impulse, the sooner you'll experience that positive impact.

992
00:46:55,996 --> 00:46:58,876
Speaker 1: So go ahead and join the Pods Fight Poverty campaign

993
00:46:59,156 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 1: by donating at GiveDirectly dot org slash happiness Lab. That's

994
00:47:03,676 --> 00:47:07,356
Speaker 1: GiveDirectly dot org slash happiness Lab. And if you're not

995
00:47:07,396 --> 00:47:10,356
Speaker 1: in a position to give, that's fine. Maybe you'd consider

996
00:47:10,396 --> 00:47:13,516
Speaker 1: sharing our campaign with your friends and colleagues. Just use

997
00:47:13,516 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 1: the hashtag pods fight Poverty to raise awareness, fight extreme poverty,

998
00:47:18,036 --> 00:47:21,396
Speaker 1: and unwrap a little gift of happiness for yourself too.

999
00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:24,516
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will continue in the holiday spirit for

1000
00:47:24,556 --> 00:47:27,516
Speaker 1: the rest of the year. Next week, we'll be tackling

1001
00:47:27,556 --> 00:47:31,556
Speaker 1: your holiday happiness woes with a very hilarious special guest,

1002
00:47:32,036 --> 00:47:36,316
Speaker 1: actor and podcaster Brain Wilson. That's all next time on

1003
00:47:36,396 --> 00:47:39,156
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos,