1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: for joining me for session three forty six of the 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. We all deserve 14 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: to find and have love, but this process can look 15 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: and feel a little different when you're navigating the dating 16 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: scene as a transgender woman. To explore all of the 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: nuances that come with dating as a transgender person, I'm 18 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: joined by award winning journalist Derek L. Cottingham. Derek is 19 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: a proud Southern Black trans woman based in Los Angeles 20 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: whose career portfolio includes The La Times, Harper's Bazaar, Essence, 21 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: and The Washington Post. She's also a general board member 22 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: of NABJLA, where she strives to make the industry more 23 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: inclusive for black journalists. During our conversation, Derek and I 24 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: discussed some of her experiences navigating dating as a trans woman, 25 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: including discerning between genuine interests and fetishization, deciding which dating 26 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: app is right for you, and choosing how to maintain 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: safety when disclosing your identity to a new partner. If 28 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share 29 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, 30 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister circles to talk 31 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community 32 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, 33 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. 34 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 2: Derek, Thank you so much for having me. 35 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I wonder 36 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: if you could take us back to the early stages 37 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: of your transition and talk with me about, like, what 38 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: did those early experiences, how did that shape what you 39 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: felt like dating was going to be. 40 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 3: So transition is really hard. People sometimes know transition based 41 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: on when you start your medical journey when you start 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 3: social transitioning. So social transitioning is like when you're going 43 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: through the world and letting everyone know these are my pronouns, 44 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: this is how I'll be moving when you start wearing 45 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: the gender of firm and clothing and leaning more towards 46 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 3: showcasing what the gender that you identify as is social. 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 3: And then there's the medical journey to where you go 48 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 3: and start hormone replacement therapy or HRT, whether you're introducing 49 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: estrogen or more testa shown into your body or using 50 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: lockers for the dominant hormone that your body naturally produces. 51 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: And so for me, I started social transitioning a few 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 3: years ago, but very much in a very discreete and 53 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: secret way for all intentsive purposes. When I would date, 54 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 3: I was dating as a trans woman in my personal life. However, 55 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: I had not yet let people know that I was trans, 56 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: or really let anyone know until last year of March 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 3: is when I made it public and I let my 58 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: loved ones and my family and everyone know. And so 59 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 3: I've only been on the medical side of transitioning. It'll 60 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 3: be a year at the end of March. 61 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: So when you started socially transitioning, What were your thoughts 62 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: around dating and what that might be like for you. 63 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: For me, it was interesting because a lot of my 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: dating experiences I had came out as like by and 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 3: queer when I was seventeen, and a lot of my 66 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: dating experiences were within a queer space, and a lot 67 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: of the times femininity was not like the thing that 68 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: was sought after, and there was this notion of no facts, 69 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: no felms, no this type of thing like if it 70 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: was masked for masks, and this is all that people 71 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: were interested in. 72 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: And so also growing up in the South and just. 73 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 3: Being black and growing up in like the Baptist religion 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: and just real Southern upbringing, there was a lot of 75 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 3: internal interrogation of not feeling like I was disappointing others 76 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: by like being my true self, by embracing my womanhood, 77 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: embracing my femininity, and always wondering if by being myself 78 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 3: would that mean that I would be alone for the 79 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: rest of my life romantically. And so it took a 80 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 3: lot of mental and emotional internal talking with myself and 81 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 3: sitting with the feeling and noticing that when I was 82 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: presenting more felm outwardly to people that I was happier, 83 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: It would sleep easier at night, I felt better about myself. 84 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: And I would literally cringe at heating pronouns, like I 85 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 3: would feel like a sword was stuck into my chest. 86 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 3: And so that was a lot of the mental and 87 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: emotional things that I had to work through personally when 88 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 3: I was navigating the dating space too, because it was 89 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: this thing of like, what does it mean when femininity 90 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: is just not appreciated as much in the dating space 91 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 3: coming from like the queer space of where I was 92 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: coming from, and still at the time, I was so unsure. 93 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: Now I'm a little bit more clear on things and 94 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: know what I'm. 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 3: Attracted to as far as a partner, what I need 96 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: from them, What does it mean for sexuality when I'm 97 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: dating someone, and things like that, because when I am dating, 98 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: I'm typically dating someone that is more mass presenting, whether 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: it's SIS or trans, and I tend to date people 100 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: that are straight by and pansexual, and so now there's 101 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: a bit more understanding. But in those early stages, I 102 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: was like, I don't know the terminology, I don't have 103 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 3: the knowledge, and coming from the South, and there were 104 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 3: very few like the queerness that you did know was 105 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 3: more you had someone that was either lesbian or that 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: was gay. But I really didn't know any non binary 107 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: or trans people coming from like Texas, Louisiana and just 108 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: growing up in that real religious background. And so it 109 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: was also not that many like possibility models on TV, 110 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 3: and like the few trans people you did see, they 111 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: were usually white women or something, and me being very 112 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 3: aware that my experience is not going to be the 113 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: exact same as theirs, and there's not going to be 114 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: that same type of mobility, and so it was some time. 115 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: I am really trying to be comfortable with that, even 116 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: in private while dating. 117 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought the media piece into it, because 118 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm very curious about that. Can you remember like your 119 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: earliest experience of seeing yourself reflected on the screen and 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: then how that helped to shape your identity? 121 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 3: Wow, it really wouldn't be the most accurate depiction would 122 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: not be until more recently, and it would be with 123 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: Uncle Clifford from Pea Valley. It would be the character 124 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: that's played by this actress on the SHI who was 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: also a black trans woman and a journalist, and those 126 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,119 Speaker 3: would be the most accurate depictions where I'm like, Okay, 127 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: that's me, that's through and through as a black queer Southerner, 128 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 3: as the one that is navigating media space. But also 129 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 3: my transidentity is a very public thing too, because I 130 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: transitioned while I was already in my career, and I 131 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: also opted not to change my name. 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: So it's this thing of like it's. 133 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: A little bit different, of I don't have the option 134 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 3: to live in a stealth way or not really let 135 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 3: it be known that I am trans. And so those 136 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: two depictions were more common for me. And then when 137 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 3: I was growing up, I kind of just related to 138 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: a lot of more sim and queer characters, Like I 139 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 3: loved all the animated characters that Chris Summer played. I 140 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 3: loved her character in a different world, I felt from her. 141 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: And also it would be like other queer characters on 142 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 3: De Grassy you have like Marco, and so I would 143 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 3: identify with aspects of these different people. But not until 144 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 3: more recently did I feel like, Okay, that's exactly carbon 145 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 3: copy like me. And then just as far as like womanhood, 146 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: it would be Queen Latifa, especially live in single days, 147 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 3: like when I think of what beauty and womanhood and 148 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: stuff looks like for me and the way I expressed it, 149 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: it's very Queen Latifa Teona Taylor centric and really look 150 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 3: to like Tracey Hallis Ross and her time on girlfriends 151 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: and things. And so it would just be bits and 152 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: pieces of like possibility models that I would see in 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: media and not more recently would it be something that 154 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: would be this character encapsulates me as a whole. 155 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: So you mentioned, you know, especially being like a Southerner 156 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: and not feeling like there were lots of like mentors 157 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: and things to kind of look up to to kind 158 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: of help you navigate this dating space. Where did you 159 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: find resources like who kind of stepped in the gap 160 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: for that or how did you feel those gaps? 161 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: Google a lot of Google, a lot a lot of Google, 162 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: And then there are now working in media to have 163 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: a few other like transistors that work in media who 164 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: understand I can lean on them and ask them a 165 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: few questions here and there. 166 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: But before then it was. 167 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 3: Like reddits and tumblers and these like online resources of 168 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: community and basically figuring out all these different types of things. 169 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: And so yeah, it was definitely like leaning towards online 170 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: spaces of community and find getting different guys and articles 171 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 3: and reading these aspects and helps me put terminology to 172 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: things too, and then just reading books as well about 173 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: black transidentity. 174 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: So any suggestions for people about how to navigate some 175 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: of those spaces, because I think there's a lot of 176 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: good there, but maybe not so good also when you're 177 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: going into these foreign territories so to speak. So any 178 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: suggestions for people, especially younger people who maybe checking out 179 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: this episode about like how do you navigate and know 180 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: what to pay attention to in online communities. 181 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 3: I lean on my media literacy training. I lean on 182 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: my gut feeling. If I read something from a community 183 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, that made me cringe a little 184 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: bit or feel uneasy, like maybe this is not the 185 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: community where I need to be looking for resources at. 186 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 3: And then if I don't have that feeling and I 187 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: feel like, oh this resource was helpful, I'm like, Okay, 188 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: let me continue to look. I've never really been a 189 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 3: Reddit type of person until I medically transitioned, and so 190 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,599 Speaker 3: I'm on Reddit quite a bit. There's a lot of 191 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 3: different very transcentric spaces on Reddit that are moderated by 192 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 3: trans people, and there are even spaces for people that 193 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 3: are interested in dating trans people of like how to 194 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 3: help them navigate dating someone and using the right terminology, 195 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: not slipping up on things, also making sure they're not 196 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 3: fetishizing people, and so redd it's been a resource. TikTok. 197 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 3: There's a few transcreators that I follow on there, and 198 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: I really gear towards more other black trans women who 199 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: I can't relate to. And then I also just gauge 200 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 3: things based on like, at what age did I transition 201 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 3: to like temper, what my medical transition could actually look 202 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: like before contemplating the possibly of any surgeries and what 203 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: genetically and medically could happen from hormones and so TikTok. 204 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: There's a few community spaces on x Twitter and things 205 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: like that. For me too, having a doctor who is 206 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 3: very well versed in trans and non binary identity that 207 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: is overseeing my gender affirming care has really helped as well. 208 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: But then also just having those older people who they 209 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: were starting when like HRT was not as accessible and 210 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: they have been able to be such good guidance on things. 211 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: It's just definitely following the gut and trusting the way 212 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 3: something makes you feel when you're looking at resources, something 213 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 3: makes you uneasy, or you feel like that doesn't seem 214 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: right and it makes you raise an eyebrow and you're 215 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: just like, no, I don't think this answered my question. 216 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 3: I would click out. I would go look for something else. 217 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: And then when you feel like something is sitting and 218 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 3: resonating with yourself. 219 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: I would do that. 220 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 3: And so that's helped me with the dating side of things, 221 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 3: in figuring out terminology, figuring out how to put words 222 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 3: to the ways that I was feeling, or just even 223 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: navigating and tempering my journey on HRT and not feeling 224 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: like I would wake up and like I would see 225 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 3: the end results. 226 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 2: It takes time. It's a process. 227 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 3: You're essentially going through a second puberty again, and so 228 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 3: it can take up to five years for everything. And 229 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: so I think being able to access that online information 230 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 3: where people are documenting their own transitions, sharing information that 231 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 3: they gleaned through their process, it's like really helpful and 232 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: important for a lot of young trans people, and it's 233 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: just always important just to know. Like early on, for me, 234 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: it was this thing of like, I didn't get to 235 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: transition when I was younger, and I transitioned after I 236 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 3: was twenty five and transitioned right when I turned twenty 237 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: seven medically and so tempering that certain things I would 238 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: not get from the hormones because I started a little later. 239 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 3: But that's always not the hard, stead fast rule of 240 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 3: realizing that hey, genetics might work, some things may not work, 241 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 3: and just being happy and graceful about the body that 242 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: I'm in, grateful for being able to finally live in 243 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 3: my truth and be happy that there are some resources 244 00:13:59,320 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: out there. 245 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: Kind of thank you so much for all of that. 246 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: So what would you say are the new normals you've 247 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: had to navigate and get used to dating as a 248 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: trans woman straight men? 249 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: I you would think I've been dating a lot of 250 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: straight men in the past five to six years or so. 251 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: Somehow I end up always that's who I end up 252 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 3: in the long haul day, and it's very different. Luckily, 253 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: I'm the youngest of five, so I have two older 254 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 3: brothers and they're really good with like advice. And my 255 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: older brother that's two years older than me, is like 256 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 3: when I first announced to my family that I was 257 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: he was like right on board, and it's like my 258 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: little sister this and that, and I'm always really good 259 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: at gaging things because also my dating pool is typically 260 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: like black millennial men because I only date with inside 261 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: my race and typically it's like straight men, so I 262 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: can glean from them like, hey, you feel this way 263 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: or you've dealt with this before. 264 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: How should I approach this to. 265 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 3: Where it doesn't seem like I'm nagging them or like 266 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: I understand where they're coming from, and how can I 267 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: approach this topic? And my brothers have been like really 268 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: really helpful with that, But it definitely would be entering 269 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: that hetero dating space a little bit. There's someone that 270 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: I would seeing and they would not let me open 271 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 3: a door, and they are from the South. They were like, 272 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: would not let me open the door. They would get 273 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: mad when I would do anything like that. They're like 274 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: very chivalry because I'm like, it's modern world, modern woman, 275 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: modern dating. Chivalry's kind of little on his last breath, 276 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: so it's always shocking when you experience it. And so 277 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: it would just be those kind of hetero norms. But 278 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: it is something that's very different for me because it's 279 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 3: not what I've done dating wise, and so that has 280 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: been like the most interesting to navigate. And I find 281 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: myself having girl talk with like my friends and my 282 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 3: aunts and like my mom and stuff about these things, 283 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. But yeah, 284 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: definitely navigating dating straight man, And. 285 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: Is there anything that's been more positive or more uplifting 286 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: than you expected it to be. 287 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 3: I think now I came out in a time where 288 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: there have been work of like the idea of trans people, 289 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: specifically black trans women existing was not as out of 290 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: mind out of sight for people, and so I do 291 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: think when it comes to dating, there's an opportunity for 292 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: me to date people who are comfortable being with me 293 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 3: in public. There's still a lot of people that are not, 294 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: especially just the way that we talk about queerness and 295 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: transness in the black community in general, especially if you're 296 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: from the South and grew up in a very religious. 297 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: Background like I did. 298 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: And so it's been refreshing to meet some nice guys 299 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: that are totally secure in who they are in themselves. 300 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: They're like, I'm either by or pain or they're like, 301 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: I'm I'm straight. I only like women. I only date women, 302 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: and you're a woman for me, and you make me happy. 303 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: I'm very attracted to you, and I don't care what 304 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: nobody gonna say. They're like PDAs ago dating and public 305 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: as a go, and that's very one gender for me. 306 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 3: But two, it's also just romantically, just when you're dating someone, 307 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 3: you never want to feel like you're being the secret. 308 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: You never want to feel like they're embarrassed of you. 309 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: It's such a dehumanizing feeling. And so I think that's 310 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: a really big part because even before my transition, and 311 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 3: maybe I was dating some queer men, they were always 312 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: embarrassed about my femininity. They were always embarrassed about me 313 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: and aspects of who I was as myself, and it 314 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: just was not ever a good feeling. And so that's 315 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: definitely a part where it's like a lot more happier. 316 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: But then I also enjoy girl talk with my girls 317 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 3: and talk about this stuff. 318 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: I have fun with that. 319 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 3: The sisterhood from the black women in my life, it's 320 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: been amazing. They're always giving so many tips and advice 321 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: on things, especially when it's like a date night. 322 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you gotta do this, girl, have this, 323 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: be prepared with this, and I'm like, thank you. 324 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 3: So it's definitely those aspects that have been like, hmmm, 325 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: this is kind of great. I like it. 326 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: Nice, nice more from our conversation after the break, so 327 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: we know that a lot of dating these days is 328 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: happening online, so people have mixed experiences. So I'd love 329 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: to hear about your experiences dating online. Any tips that 330 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: you would have to share are things that you're like, 331 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: please say away from this. 332 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: I'm an online girl. I am. 333 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: I'm an online girl. I've been online for most of 334 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 3: my life. I'm a what the kids call a zenillennial. 335 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 3: I'm a cusp between millennial and gen z. So technology 336 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 3: has been a huge part of my life and dating. 337 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: I was on all the apps. I no longer am 338 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: on the apps. I don't have them on my phone anymore, 339 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: but I was on all of them. The queer ones. 340 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: There's some trans specific ones that you got to be 341 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 3: a little careful about because they're marketed as for us, 342 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: but what there really are are very fetishization and people 343 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 3: that are like chasers, and you got to be really 344 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 3: weary about those ones. And then there are some very 345 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 3: black centric ones that while company policy may be they're 346 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 3: pro everybody, the experience in who is allowed to be 347 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 3: on there and who doesn't get bans and reporting is 348 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: very different from the actual reality. 349 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: And then there's. 350 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 3: Okaycuep it, hear me out, hear me out. It took 351 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: me hearing from some of my older friends who met 352 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 3: their partners on okaycuep It to give okaycup it a try. 353 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 3: And I'm single, but I've been actively dating and out 354 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: of who is working, that person came from okaycupit, and 355 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 3: so that is very shocking just for me being so 356 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 3: young and like always being long on tender rayah mumble 357 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 3: and like all the other newer ones. But yeah, they 358 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: came from okay Cupid, and so I'm pro dating apps. 359 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: I say that I'm trans straight up. It kind of 360 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: is a little easier for me to not even really 361 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: contemplate stealth or being public, only because I chose not 362 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: to change my name. And part of that reason was 363 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 3: that half my career was already under my name. And 364 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 3: I'm a journalist, I'm working media, I'm front facing, and 365 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 3: I go viral quite a bit online on different topics 366 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: and stuff, and so I was just like, there's no 367 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: way I can just disappear and just pop back out 368 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: and nobody knows who I am. And so because of 369 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: those things, I am very upfront about it. I'm also 370 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: living with HIV, which I've discussed and made that public 371 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: as well. And that I contracted that from like assault, 372 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 3: and so I'm very honest that I'm positive I'm an 373 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 3: undetectable and I am a trans woman that's in my 374 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: bio all the time. On dating apps, other ways you 375 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: can do it. A lot of girls kind of just 376 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 3: put the little flag as a sticker on one of 377 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 3: their photos so it's clear. Other people may start the 378 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 3: conversation with someone like the highs and the hellos and 379 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: then early on their life just so you know I 380 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 3: am also trans. There are so many different ways that 381 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 3: people disclose these things and dating apps, it can be hard. 382 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: You're sifting through a lot of people that are fetishizing you, 383 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 3: a lot of people that may be attracted to you, 384 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 3: but they have their own internal stuff that they're figuring out. 385 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 3: There was one guy, it was a guy who matches 386 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 3: me on a dating app, and it was like two 387 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: years ago. This guy mashed me on the dating app. 388 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 3: We were hitting it off on the app. We exchanged 389 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 3: numbers and like I said, my status as far as 390 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: my HIV is in my bio and that I'm a 391 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: trans woman is in my bio, and so we're hitting 392 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 3: it off. We get each other's number. I guess they 393 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: finally go back and read my bio. We're still talking 394 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 3: over text, having good time. They're setting up a date 395 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 3: all of this, and they're like, whoa, you got me, 396 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: you tricked me, you got me real good. And I'm 397 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 3: just like, what are you talking about. They're like, you 398 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: played me real good. I didn't know you were trans 399 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 3: and this and that da da dah. And I was like, 400 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 3: it's like the first thing in my bio, Like did 401 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: you not read the bio? And they were like, no, 402 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 3: you played me well. And I was like, who tricked you? 403 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 3: Who played you? When it's right there, first thing on 404 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 3: the profile. And it was such an interesting kind of dynamic. 405 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 3: Situations like that always early on too, because at the 406 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: time I wasn't had to start my medical transition, and 407 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: at the time of that time, I wasn't working full time. 408 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 3: I was freelancing full time, and so I just didn't 409 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: have health insurance, and so I was always really hard 410 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: on myself about not being able to quote unquote past 411 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 3: or feeling like I hadn't started my actual medical transition, 412 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: and so things like that did hurt and hit my 413 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 3: insecurities a lot about myself, and I'll trigger a lot 414 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 3: of my dysphoria. But it was just thing of like, 415 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 3: no one tricked you, but you feel that I intentionally 416 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 3: went out of my way to do something dubious to you, 417 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 3: and it was right there. I'm gonna say this is 418 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: the clean way because I gotta be a lady in 419 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: situations like that. There were so many different situations that 420 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: happened that were like that. 421 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 2: And I joke with my. 422 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: Girls now and I'm just like, men don't be reading 423 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 3: none of these bios on dating sites at all. They 424 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 3: see a pretty face or a booty and they swipe 425 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: right and they just start the conversation, and then down 426 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: the line in the conversation they might go click back 427 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: and read your bio. And I'm like, that's exactly what happens. 428 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: And I know that happens just because of that situation 429 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 3: in so many other situations. And so that's it's been 430 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: like my online dating experience. There's been good experiences, there's 431 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: been bad. There's been some people where it started off 432 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 3: maybe let's go on a date, and then it turned 433 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 3: into friendships, it turned into just us networking because we 434 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: found out we both work in media, or they just 435 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: became good friends. But dating as a black trans woman 436 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: is very much like dating as a black woman in general. 437 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: That is sis added on top with a bunch of 438 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: sprinkling of transphobia possibly all. 439 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: These other things. 440 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: You're still dealing with a massage noor, You're still dealing 441 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: with people either fetishizing you, You're dealing with people that 442 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 3: are dehumanizing you. It's all these things you have to 443 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 3: sift through just to find Prince Charming or the person 444 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 3: who you're meant to be with or who you're a 445 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: person is And it's interesting. But I like meeting people 446 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: in person. I also like online dating. I think online 447 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: dating you do what works for you, and I've done 448 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 3: them all. Like I said, I even was like on Riyah, 449 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 3: I just don't believe in paying for so I was 450 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 3: on there for a bit, had a couple of matches, 451 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: but it was too industry and networking for me that 452 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: I didn't too much care for it. I've also dated 453 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: a few other people with public platforms who were very 454 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: iffy about dating me because it was this thing. They 455 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 3: would google me and I pop up with an actual 456 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: Google knowledge panel and so it's like, oh, this is 457 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 3: a very recognizable person. So if we're out in public. 458 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 3: If we're doing things in public, people are going to 459 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: know that she's trans. And if we're holding hands, if 460 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 3: we're looking romantic, they're going to know that I'm into 461 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 3: trans women. There was one actor who I was seeing 462 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: and not really that long, but we were just seeing 463 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: each other, and he did this thing of like, my 464 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 3: career it could be at risk, all this other stuff 465 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: and just being affiliated with you, which hurt me so 466 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 3: bad because I'm just like, while I can't understand this, 467 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 3: like insecurities, fears and stuff like that, it's the way 468 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 3: you go about articulating it to a person that just 469 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: doesn't make them feel like also crappy. They didn't articulate 470 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: in a really great way, and so I gave a 471 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: little snappy push back and I said, don't nobody even 472 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 3: know who you are? They googled your name? No, none 473 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 3: pop up. You google me, something does pop up. And 474 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 3: so it was a very interesting situation. It was this 475 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 3: thing of them telling me they don't care about who 476 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 3: sees us and this stuff like leading me on in 477 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 3: that way, and then it flipped to this and I 478 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 3: was just like, then leave me alone, Like you didn't 479 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 3: have to approach me. You approached me, you asked me 480 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 3: out we were going on dates. Leave me alone. If 481 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 3: you cannot get down with who I am, leave me 482 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 3: alone because there's no fantasy here, there's no fling, there's 483 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 3: no nothing, because I don't got time for it. I'm 484 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 3: very guarded and protective of my heart because of the 485 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: relationships I've had, the things that I've learned from those relationships, 486 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: and so I'm just like, until you figure out yourself, 487 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 3: until you are comfortable with what you're attracted to, please 488 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: say away. I've had a lot of different situations of 489 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: dating online and some goods and bads in between, and 490 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 3: you know, it's just the experiences. 491 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: Yes. So, Derek, you mentioned being careful of being fetishized 492 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: multiple times. Can you give us some indications of like 493 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: how we would vet for that, Like how would somebody 494 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: know whether it's like somebody who has genuine interests versus 495 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: somebody who's interested as a fetish. 496 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 3: It's very similar to and I think a lot of 497 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: black women can understand this too. It's versus when a 498 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: guy is like actively trying to set up a date 499 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 3: versus just like trying to just kick it. And we 500 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 3: know what kick it means and a lot of them 501 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: just be trying to kick it. I can tell when 502 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 3: they're like not trying to like go and hang out 503 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: in public, but they're like, let me come over, or 504 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 3: you come over here, and I'm like, it's eleven o'clock 505 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 3: at night, it's one am. Why are you asking me 506 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 3: to come over? We had a whole day. You also 507 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 3: told me that you were off. 508 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: I was off. 509 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: We were cool, we could have coordinated something, and it's gauging, 510 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 3: like those things going with your gut. But then when 511 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: they're like so anti just even just doing platonic hangouts 512 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 3: with you, and if they're only contacting you to inquire 513 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 3: about the kicking it of it all, that also said 514 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 3: something for me too, like we can't hold a regular 515 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 3: conversation because for me, with dating, I need to know 516 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: that we have some interest, we have some things that 517 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 3: we can talk about before we even get into the 518 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: flirting or the sexual nature of us. When I date, 519 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: the typical times where things work out is when I'm 520 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: a nerd. I'm an anime nerd, I'm a sneaker nerd, 521 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 3: I'm a music nerd, and I love pop culture. When 522 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: I'm able to talk about these things with other people, 523 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 3: or I mesh well platonically and romantically with people who 524 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 3: are nerds about their own favorite thing, and I can 525 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: have that conversation with them. It's also this thing of 526 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 3: coming from like the queer space. There's this dl nature 527 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: of like some guys don't even let you know what 528 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 3: their name is, but they want to spend time with you, 529 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: they want to do all this other stuff. It's like, 530 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 3: I'm good, but it's very much this nature of how 531 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 3: did someone approach you make you feel? If they left 532 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 3: you feeling uneasy, if it made you feel like what 533 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: did you mean by that, If it doesn't make you 534 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 3: feel enthusiastic, like oh wow, I really would like to 535 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: hang out with them. It's a good way to kind 536 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: of really gauge in these things. There's just one app. 537 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: I don't know what to say, but it's really fetishizing. 538 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: Like I was using it as one of the apps 539 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 3: I was using for dating, and it was just a 540 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 3: lot of like chasers on there, and I had on 541 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: there that I don't do hookups, none of that, don't 542 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,719 Speaker 3: not looking for none of that, and people were still 543 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 3: trying because I guess that's what it started being for 544 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: a lot of people. It was like very much a 545 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 3: chaser app for trans women, Like it was an app 546 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 3: for people to go in there and find trans women 547 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: and appease what they were into. And so those are 548 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 3: those types of things too. What worked for me also 549 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: was just getting off of the queer centric apps like that, 550 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: like the ones that were very catered towards us. I 551 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: kind of just you know, let people know that I'm 552 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 3: transit my bio check that I'm a woman or tender, 553 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 3: and a few other places you can now check that 554 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 3: you're trans women like they have a more expansive gender identification, 555 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 3: and I just kind of stick to the ones that 556 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: the this is hed people use and feel and kind 557 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: of just not sift. 558 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: Through any of that. 559 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 3: But it's also this notion of like, if you're on 560 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: the queer ones and there are trans sub categories that 561 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: you can select, a lot of us feel like that's 562 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: a little easier because you don't have to do the 563 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 3: dance of letting someone know that you're trans. And so 564 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 3: that is the appeal of those spaces. But with those spaces, 565 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 3: the other side sometimes is that it's real fetishization is 566 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 3: very hookup culture. It's very like people are only interested 567 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 3: in you for your body, for what you do for 568 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 3: them on an arousal level versus as a person, and 569 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 3: before transitioning, before socially transitioning, just dating in general has 570 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 3: always been that for me, where people were more in 571 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: love with the idea of me. My past relationships were 572 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 3: very centered on those things, and so I learned a 573 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 3: lot from those things where I. 574 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: Was not happy. 575 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 3: Some of those relationships were very abusive verbally and physically, 576 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 3: and just be able to catch the signs of like, 577 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: this person does not make me feel safe, They do 578 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 3: not make me feel secure, they do not make me 579 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 3: feel happy, And I have an anxious attachment style, and 580 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 3: so I'm like, if they're exasperbating that like twenty four 581 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 3: to seven one hundred percent of the time, I'm like, 582 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: maybe we don't need to do. 583 00:31:49,960 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Right right more from our conversation after the break, so 584 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: you've shared that you are very forthcoming with your identity 585 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: as a trans woman, with your medical status, all of 586 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: those things. But we know that people are in different 587 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: stages of where they want you and how they want 588 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: to share that. What kinds of things would you say 589 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: people need to consider about when to have a conversation 590 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: if they are not as public or sharing as forthcomingly 591 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: as you are. 592 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: I think when you feel safe, a lot of it 593 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 3: is safety because you don't know how someone's going to react. 594 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 3: Like the story I told about the guy earlier, it 595 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: was in my bio. He did not read the bio, 596 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 3: got my number and everything. We're talking everything, but still 597 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: felt like I tricked him, quote unquote. It's a lose 598 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 3: lose A lot of these times with people. For you, though, 599 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: when you are trans, it's about what allows you to 600 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: go to sleep at night, what makes you feel safe, 601 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 3: what makes you feel comfortable. Because everyone thinks there's this 602 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 3: big body man type of gotscha thing that's happening, and 603 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 3: most of the time that's not the case. What's happening 604 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: is people are attracted to us. They just don't want 605 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 3: other people to know that they are, and they get 606 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 3: very embarrassed or insecure about it because of the way 607 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 3: society talks about trans people, or they talk about the 608 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: people that are in love and interested and attracted to 609 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 3: trans people. When I date someone, like seriously date them, 610 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: always recommend them to watch Cocomo City. It's a film 611 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 3: that was on film circuit last year at festivals and 612 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 3: I saw it at Sundance last year and I interviewed 613 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 3: the director, who is Grammy nominated producer d Smith, who 614 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 3: is also trans. And there's a lot of trans documentaries 615 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: and films. This one, though, it was very specific to 616 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 3: the experience of black trans women and the people that 617 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: love us, and it really got into the nitty gritty 618 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 3: from people who were doing survival work for people that 619 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 3: are engaged and married in relationships with straight men. And 620 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 3: we are in the black community because we know how 621 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 3: we can navigate and really talk about queer issues. It's 622 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: very different than like broader kind of conversations. And it 623 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 3: was these in depth interviews about these dynamics with the 624 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: people about the safety of it all. 625 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: How but just the way that you. 626 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 3: Even talk about people that are interested in us adds 627 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 3: to the harm for us because it changes and affects 628 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 3: the way they react to finding out the person that 629 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 3: they are attracted to is trans, even if they may 630 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: know or have a glean in their mind. Are like, 631 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure she's trans, but she ain't probably told 632 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 3: me yet, but I'm cool with it, but you don't 633 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 3: really know for sure. And so I always tell the 634 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 3: guys and like, watch that like I also gauge is 635 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 3: how they talk about, like people in general, how they 636 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 3: talk about black women, because you might mean me where 637 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: my hair is a totally different way. This is a 638 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 3: fresh twist out five days when now it's gonna be. 639 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 3: So I tell people like, don't be feeling like you 640 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: getting tricked by some type of image or you met 641 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 3: me when my hair was straight, or you met me 642 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 3: when I this other thing, and you feel like I 643 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 3: don't no longer look this way, And I feel like 644 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 3: a lot of black trans women we gauge that too, 645 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 3: Like it's this thing of we have to like constantly 646 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 3: put the face on. We gotta do the full performance 647 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: of femininity. We can't really always show up sweatpants, hair 648 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 3: tat chilling with no makeup on, Like we can't do 649 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 3: those types of things. Because even this interview, I was 650 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 3: like so weird because I talk with my hands, but 651 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 3: I took my nails off, and so I was like, 652 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 3: I need to pop on into presto ones and like 653 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 3: all these other things and then like my makeup. I 654 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 3: do that for myself, like it's something I just love 655 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: to do. But it's these things that I think a 656 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 3: lot of us consider and I always recommend that documentary. 657 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 3: And then d Smith, their partner is actually one of 658 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 3: the old members from B five, and he did a 659 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 3: video too that was like going around and it was 660 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 3: viral and it was just think about like, it's important 661 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 3: to talk about and normalize loving black trans women because 662 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 3: when we do these things, it. 663 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: Makes it safer for us. 664 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 3: It really does, like having that co sign of just 665 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 3: like this is normal, This is way more normal than 666 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 3: people think it is, This is more common than people 667 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 3: think it is. Is really really important. It overall adds 668 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 3: to the safety for us. It adds to how community 669 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 3: engages with us. It takes away this table nature of 670 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 3: our existence. Because I always tell people, like, just me existing, 671 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: it is political. It was already political as a black person, 672 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 3: it's more political now as a woman, as a trans woman, 673 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 3: it's just political because my existence is always discussed on 674 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 3: the political spectrum, my rights, all these types of things. 675 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 3: And I just tell people, do what makes you feel 676 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 3: safe and comfortable. What's gonna be the thing that makes 677 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 3: you feel like you can go to bed at night 678 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: and not keep you up at night, make you not 679 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 3: feel like someone's going to attack you because of who 680 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 3: you are. I think you asked me earlier about out, 681 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: like how do you gauge like who's fetishizing and who isn't? 682 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 3: Typically the reason another reason why I stay away from 683 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 3: the people that are fetishizing is because they're usually the 684 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 3: people who will react in a very harmful way regarding 685 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 3: your status or of who you are, your transness, and 686 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 3: if other people find out, it can get really really 687 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 3: harmful and dangerous, And so I need people who also 688 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 3: got something to lose. They people who are not of 689 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 3: that vein who I can go out in public with 690 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 3: it can be documented. I'm texting of my friends like 691 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: hey girl, I'm out with this person, just so you 692 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 3: know they got my I'm in an improved child with 693 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 3: my girlfriends and we they have like. 694 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: My location and stuff like that. 695 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 3: I think about like abusive relationships and we're partners, trying 696 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 3: to isolate a person and when it comes to dating 697 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 3: for me, but like also being aware because it used 698 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 3: to be me and a lot of other trans women 699 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 3: deal with this, there is that isolation where you can't 700 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 3: really talk about the person that you're dating. You can't 701 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 3: really disclose what's going on, even to your friend groups 702 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 3: or your loved ones, and that type of isolation builds 703 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 3: this perfect environment for them to be able to be 704 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 3: abusive and feel like you don't have anyone to turn 705 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 3: to about it, because there's also this guilt, I would say, 706 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 3: of feeling like, why are you telling the tea of 707 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 3: who you were seeing? And it's like it's also your tea. 708 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: This was a us, Like you should be able to 709 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 3: talk about the romantic encounters that you have, and I 710 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 3: think a lot of the times we feel like, oh, 711 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 3: we got to keep that private and this than that, 712 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 3: because if someone finds out, then they're like, oh, the 713 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 3: person was gay. But it's just like this person not 714 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 3: even attracted to men, They're only attracted to women, and 715 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 3: you're probably their first trans woman. Most of the time 716 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 3: when I'm dating, I'm usually people's first time dating a 717 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 3: trans woman. Now that is a whole other pressure of itself, 718 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 3: because you're then making sure that everything goes well and 719 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 3: you're like super in your head about every aspect of 720 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 3: the dating because you're just like, they're gonna hold the 721 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 3: entire experience up to the experience they have with me. 722 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 3: But overall, I just tell people, you really got to 723 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 3: listen to your gut. You really gotta like, it's about 724 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: your safety at the end of the day, and I'm 725 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 3: just like, it's disclosure is very much a personal decision. 726 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 3: We discuss it like it's not, but it's a very 727 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 3: subjective and personal decision. 728 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: So what advice would you give to non trans partners 729 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: who want to create safe, nurturing environments for their trans partner. 730 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 3: When updated non trans people, what's really worked for me 731 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 3: that's made me feel safe and secure is one knowing 732 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 3: that they're usually in community with other queer people. They're 733 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 3: in community with other trans and non binary people. They 734 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 3: are cultured on some aspects of transnis. They may not 735 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 3: be like an academic scholar on the subject matter, but 736 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 3: they're not complete oblivious to things. They're always asking questions, 737 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 3: but in a way to grow and learn, or they'll 738 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 3: just take the initiative to kind of just research something themselves. 739 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 3: And then it's like they do this thing. You're like, wait, 740 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 3: how did you even. 741 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 4: Know even know to do that? And it's like, okay, 742 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 4: so when did their homework? I see you, and so 743 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 4: I think it's important to do that. I mentioned the 744 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: Reddit earlier, there were communities for some people that are 745 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 4: interested in dating trans people. 746 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 3: They are very specific ones. They're broad ones, just like 747 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 3: dating trans people in general, there are very specific ones 748 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 3: for male to female. There are very specific ones for 749 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 3: female to male, from how to have sex with this person, 750 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 3: what is pleasurable, what is not to how do I 751 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 3: make them feel their gender affirmed constantly? How do I 752 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 3: make sure I'm not offending them in this way or 753 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 3: let them know that I'm not fetishizing them, I'm not 754 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 3: a chaser, or people trying to figure out are they 755 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 3: a chaser or not because they're like, well. 756 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: I feel this way, but does that make me a chaser? 757 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 2: Like I don't want to be a chaser. 758 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 3: Like I've seen different communities like that on Reddit too, 759 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 3: and so there's a lot of discussion for people who 760 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 3: are interested in dating trans people, especially black trans women. 761 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 3: But it's still very much in the shadows. And I 762 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 3: always recommend that Cocomo City film because it's like one 763 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 3: of the first times I've seen it kind of just 764 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 3: like put in a platform that's like, we're not in 765 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 3: the shadows anymore. 766 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 2: We exist. 767 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 3: We're part of the black community because we are black, 768 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,439 Speaker 3: and there are straight black men that love us too, 769 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 3: and pretending like it's this crush quiet type of thing 770 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 3: actually adds harm to us. But I always recommend those, 771 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 3: even just for trans education in general. I have a 772 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 3: one on one course. I get people that recommended mea 773 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 3: hey media academic journalist that that's my little house. So 774 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 3: film wise, it's Cocomo City and it's Disclosure Doc that 775 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 3: is on Netflix, and then we see each other by 776 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 3: my good friend and mentor, Javelle Anderson, which is a 777 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 3: legacy of black and trans representation on TV and film 778 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 3: and pop culture. 779 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 2: And a newer book from. 780 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 3: Roquel willis the Risk it takes to bloom on liberation 781 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 3: in life, And that's like my one on one course 782 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 3: for people to really get a glimpse of what it's 783 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 3: like to be trans, but very specifically black in trans 784 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 3: and a very black trans womanhood centric peak into what 785 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 3: it is of the existence. And yeah, those are my 786 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 3: recommendations one on one course crash course of just like huh, 787 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 3: start there, like when everybody's like, you don't got to 788 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 3: constantly ask me as a living encyclopedia, you can google. 789 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 3: I'll give a few recks and those are my go 790 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 3: to recommendations for people. 791 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: Beautiful. I love that, we love a good resource list 792 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: and things for people to check into for themselves. I 793 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: appreciate you so Derek. I feel like there's so much 794 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: more to share, but I do not want to keep 795 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: you all day, So tell us where we can stay 796 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: connected with you. What is your website as well as 797 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,320 Speaker 1: any social media channels you'd like to share? 798 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 3: Everything is Derek coott. Even my website is d A 799 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 3: r I C c Ott dot com. On my social 800 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 3: media is if I'm on a platform, it's Derekcott d 801 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 3: A r I c c O t T. That's the 802 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 3: act for everything, and that's how you can find me perfect. 803 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include it in the show notes. 804 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. 805 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 2: Of course, thank you. 806 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Derek was able to join us for 807 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: this episode. To learn more about her and the work 808 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at 809 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,479 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three four six, 810 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls right 811 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode. If 812 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure 813 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: to visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot 814 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: com slash directory. If you want to continue digging into 815 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters, 816 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle. 817 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for 818 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,280 Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy 819 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, 820 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. 821 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,760 Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. 822 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all 823 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,879 Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care. 824 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:34,239 Speaker 2: What's