WEBVTT - What Nobody Tells You About Steroids with Dr. Mike Israetel

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<v Speaker 1>From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. I'm Chris Guyamali This is Superhuman.

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<v Speaker 1>I did a ton of interviews over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>this series, and one that really informed how I think

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<v Speaker 1>about this whole world was my conversation with doctor Mike Isertel.

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<v Speaker 1>Mike has a PhD in sports physiology, co founded the

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<v Speaker 1>fitness company ARP Strength, and is a competitive bodybuilder and

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<v Speaker 1>Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt. He's also one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most candid voices on the Internet when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>what performance enhancement actually feels like from the inside. We

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<v Speaker 1>didn't talk about whether steroids are good or bad. We

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<v Speaker 1>had a conversation about what steroids do to your body,

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<v Speaker 1>to your mind, your recovery, your mood, your relationships, and

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<v Speaker 1>your judgment. We also get into where he thinks all

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<v Speaker 1>of this is heading, and his answer might surprise you.

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<v Speaker 1>He's not a cheerleader for the status quo. He thinks

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<v Speaker 1>the entire category of anabolic steroids may be obsolete within

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<v Speaker 1>a decade, and he makes a pretty interesting case for why.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, guys, my name is doctor my Chisratel. I have

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<v Speaker 2>a PhD in sport physiology. I've been a professor at

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<v Speaker 2>several major institutions and talk courses like nutrition, exercise science

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<v Speaker 2>courses or some training courses. I'm a co founder of

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<v Speaker 2>the company RB Strength, and I regularly produce content for

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<v Speaker 2>social media that attempts to educate people about how to

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<v Speaker 2>get more jacked, more lean, and have a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of farm while we're.

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<v Speaker 1>Doing in, Mike, thanks so much for doing this. Man,

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<v Speaker 1>So little background on us for both martial arts bros.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have taken over both of our algorithms in

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful ways online.

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<v Speaker 2>That sucks. I'm sorry, No, it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Good shit, man. Yeah, if you don't mind, can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell us a little bit about your basic athletic background.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, I was born in Moscow, Russia, in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty four, and my first involvement with sport was playing

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<v Speaker 2>soccer indoors in Russia. When I was younger, I really

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<v Speaker 2>liked to wrestle my friends and stuff, and eventually that

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<v Speaker 2>led me to start wrestling. In high school, I played

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<v Speaker 2>basketball recreationally, but at three intersections of Jewish, five foot

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<v Speaker 2>six and on athletic basketball didn't really work for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I had aspirations of a career, and so I took

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<v Speaker 2>to wrestling pretty decently. Wrestled in high school, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I started lifting for wrestling, fell in love with lifting,

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<v Speaker 2>powerlifted competitively in college, and then started bodybuilding competitively when

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<v Speaker 2>I was in my PhD program, and then after a PhD,

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<v Speaker 2>got my first professor job at the University of Central Missouri,

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<v Speaker 2>where during the interview process I met a future would

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<v Speaker 2>be a great friend of mine, doctor Jen Case, and

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<v Speaker 2>she was already highly competitive of jiu jitsu. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I started my jiu jitsu journey when I was twenty

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<v Speaker 2>nine years old something like that. Wow, And two years

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<v Speaker 2>ago ish I got promoted to black belt in jiu jitsu.

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<v Speaker 2>And so wrestling, powerlifting, bodybuilding, and britiller jiu jitsu that

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<v Speaker 2>I think is most of my athletic competitive careers.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you get into powerlifting in the first place?

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<v Speaker 2>I was bench pressing at the Jewish Community Center in

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<v Speaker 2>metropolitan Detroit and there was a local gentleman named Bill

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<v Speaker 2>who was a competitive powerlifter. Once he saw me bench

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<v Speaker 2>and he was like, hey, like, you know, if you

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<v Speaker 2>have talent, he could actually like learn to bench press.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, teach me, please, and he just

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<v Speaker 2>taught me how to arch and retract, which is like

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<v Speaker 2>the two things most people don't know about bench pressing,

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<v Speaker 2>and that unlocks like fifty pounds on your bench within

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<v Speaker 2>a few weeks. And he's like, I'm going to teach

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<v Speaker 2>you how to do this. Here are all the principles.

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<v Speaker 2>Took five minutes, and he's like, it's your The bench

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<v Speaker 2>is going to go down at first, and it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to go way, way way up. And I was like, okay, cool.

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<v Speaker 2>I bit the bullet and then I learned how to bench,

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<v Speaker 2>and my bench went down and then it went up, up, up, up,

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<v Speaker 2>up up. I looked up some Federation records and I

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<v Speaker 2>realized it could break like a Federation world record with

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<v Speaker 2>my bench press when I was nineteen that was benching

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<v Speaker 2>like three sixty three seventy raw at look one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and eighty ish pounds. So I went competed in bench

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<v Speaker 2>press only competition, broke that Federation record and it was

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<v Speaker 2>really fun and I was really jealously that the other

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<v Speaker 2>guys got to squad and deadlift to two. I was

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<v Speaker 2>full send into powerlifting for like four years after that.

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<v Speaker 1>Holy shit, man, what's your pr now for the bench?

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<v Speaker 2>My PR for the bench is three hundred and eighty

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<v Speaker 2>pounds Jesus Graze.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, yeah, amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not amazing at all for my size and the

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<v Speaker 2>amounto of steroids. But I do like that you say

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<v Speaker 2>that I had chest injury when I was powerlifting and

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<v Speaker 2>it prevented me from really getting as good at benching

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<v Speaker 2>as I would have liked.

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<v Speaker 1>Were the injuries sort of your entry point to being

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<v Speaker 1>curious about steroids and peds?

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<v Speaker 2>It was really the fact that when my friends and

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<v Speaker 2>I were coming up and being fans of bodybuilding, before

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<v Speaker 2>we ever did any bodybuilding, the predominant media around bodybuilding

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<v Speaker 2>was of enhanced bodybuilders. And that's just something we thought, like,

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<v Speaker 2>you just get some point, you just become enhanced. That's

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<v Speaker 2>just what you do, and so that's just what we did.

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<v Speaker 2>It was as body simple as that. You know. It's like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Michael Jordan wears basketball shoes. Eventually you have

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<v Speaker 2>enough money, you buy basketball shoes.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember what the first ped that you tried was.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, testosterone and anthete at five hundred milligrams per week.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wow? And what did that do to your body

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<v Speaker 1>and your mind? After a week or so of trying it?

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<v Speaker 2>After a week or so, it did absolutely nothing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>several weeks in the first thing I felt was that

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<v Speaker 2>my work capacity was really substantially higher. My recovery ability

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<v Speaker 2>was higher, both acutely and chronically. So I have a

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<v Speaker 2>distinct memory of doing I think it was like bent

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<v Speaker 2>over rose, and typically, like after four or five sets

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<v Speaker 2>of rows, I would just be like systemically very tired,

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<v Speaker 2>like ugh that feeling. And then I remember that a

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<v Speaker 2>few weeks of maybe a month or two on steroids,

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<v Speaker 2>I had done multiple sets of bent rows, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I feel fine, I could just keep going,

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<v Speaker 2>and I did, and so I was like, whoa, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's different. And then the next thing I felt was

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<v Speaker 2>right clinical grade health anxiety. So I would hear my

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<v Speaker 2>own heartbeat as I was falling asleep, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is for sure like my last heartbeat. Ever, so

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<v Speaker 2>the anxiety was like, look insane and has persisted for

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<v Speaker 2>a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh. And then what did sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>layering on new like treatments look like after that for you?

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<v Speaker 2>So I got into some eq equipoise. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>was like an extra three hundred milligrams on top of that,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's eight hundred total and I had done a

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<v Speaker 2>fat loss phase during that time when I lost zero

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<v Speaker 2>strength during the fat loss phase, and at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of that phase, it was like the first time in

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<v Speaker 2>my life I had ever seen a semblance of abdominal

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<v Speaker 2>musculature and I was like, WHOA, that's neat. That never

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<v Speaker 2>happened before. And then a little bit after that, I

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<v Speaker 2>tried some Trend because I was hanging out mostly with

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<v Speaker 2>powerlifters and they just had really prepread simple way of

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<v Speaker 2>doing things. The first time I tried TRENT, I did

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<v Speaker 2>seventy five milligrams of Trend in one injection because that's

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<v Speaker 2>just what you did every other day. It was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of starting dose and I had unbelievable maybe panic attack

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<v Speaker 2>is how you could call it. Like I was very

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<v Speaker 2>aware of it's going on, but I remember feeling a

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<v Speaker 2>sensation of imminent death, like I knew I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to die real soon. I didn't know it logically, but

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<v Speaker 2>I felt that I was going to die really soon.

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<v Speaker 2>And this happened like twenty four hours injecting. So I

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<v Speaker 2>actually went home and got my laptop open and just

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<v Speaker 2>started journaling my thoughts. I was like, whoa, this is

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<v Speaker 2>this is a neat don't want to feel like this

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<v Speaker 2>for much longer. And I talked to a friend of

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<v Speaker 2>mine who was a neuroscientist, and I was like, dude,

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<v Speaker 2>it's crazy. Seventy five is the starter dose, but for

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<v Speaker 2>me it's nuts. I was like, I should maybe cut

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<v Speaker 2>it in half, and he goes, why don't you cut

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<v Speaker 2>it in a quarter? I was like, eighteen seventy five

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<v Speaker 2>are not so nobody does that. He's like, try it.

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<v Speaker 2>I tried it. I was able to do eventually. So

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<v Speaker 2>I did that for two weeks, and then I did

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<v Speaker 2>another week and a half or so at thirty seven five.

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<v Speaker 2>That really eased me in and I remember losing like

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<v Speaker 2>a like a visible amount of body fat while on

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<v Speaker 2>trend in just three three and a half weeks. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, WHOA, Holy shit. And I felt very, very

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<v Speaker 2>different strength wise. There's lots I can talk about how

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<v Speaker 2>the sensation of being on PDS feels a little different.

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<v Speaker 2>I had another experience with anavar a little bit later,

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<v Speaker 2>which was similar as far as how strength feels when

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<v Speaker 2>you're on drugs, and so that to me, it was like,

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<v Speaker 2>holy crap. And so I messed around with test and

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<v Speaker 2>NPP adrelum FENL propionate and trend and EQ. For several

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<v Speaker 2>years with I was putting on plenty of muscle, but

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't really know what I was doing drug wise,

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<v Speaker 2>and I would absolutely not recommend taking that specific path

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<v Speaker 2>for people who want to enhancemen.

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<v Speaker 1>Why where are you getting your information from? Was it

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<v Speaker 1>from online or from people that you knew a.

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<v Speaker 2>Little bit online, a little bit people that I knew

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<v Speaker 2>prior combination of the two, and a lot of internal

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<v Speaker 2>reasoning to see what ideas had coherence and what ideas didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>As a either online or in person, when you talk

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<v Speaker 2>to any one source or read any one source, you

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<v Speaker 2>can take sort of two things from it. At least

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<v Speaker 2>one is the actual literal information, and the other is

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<v Speaker 2>the degree at which that information has two kinds of coherence.

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<v Speaker 2>One is internal coherence and the other is external coherence.

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<v Speaker 2>So internal coherence means, like, somebody gives you a paragraph

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<v Speaker 2>about drugs, here's how train works. If the internal coherence

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<v Speaker 2>is low, you're like, there are parts of this paragraph

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<v Speaker 2>that contradict other parts, and actually the whole thing's largely

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<v Speaker 2>fucking not. And so you're like, okay that I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to heavily discount this source because it doesn't seem like

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<v Speaker 2>this person is somebody who's making any sense. If it

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<v Speaker 2>high eternal coherence, you're like, well, okay, so in this

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<v Speaker 2>little paragraph everything blidens up. And then external coherence would

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<v Speaker 2>be like, what about like how this lines up with

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<v Speaker 2>other things I've heard? Low external coherence would be like

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<v Speaker 2>it just really contradicts other things that I've heard. High

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<v Speaker 2>external coherence would be like, ah, actually makes a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of sense in the brand scheme. And then a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of applied coherence, and the last one is real world

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<v Speaker 2>coherence is like, actually does this match my own experience

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<v Speaker 2>in how things work? Because once you do drugs for

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<v Speaker 2>long enough, you like start to know how things feel

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<v Speaker 2>and how things react. You get a really really good

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<v Speaker 2>sense of like in the real world, though, is this

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<v Speaker 2>going to work? Because people say all kinds of things

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<v Speaker 2>about enhancement, and a bunch of them are like super

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<v Speaker 2>spot on, and a bunch of them are like that

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<v Speaker 2>this person is hypothesizing or had a very rare case

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<v Speaker 2>and it does not generalize. And so based on kind

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<v Speaker 2>of judging coherence and taking information from real humans and

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<v Speaker 2>from four on people and reading like a blog post

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<v Speaker 2>and websites like meso rx dot com. Back in the day,

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<v Speaker 2>they had like article entries for each kind of steroids.

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<v Speaker 2>So I consumed a lot of that, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of building my world model of like what do

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<v Speaker 2>steroids do, what do they not do? How to properly

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<v Speaker 2>use them? And that's kind of how I went about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me a little bit more about the strength you

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<v Speaker 1>were feeling. Did you feel like a superhero, Like what

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<v Speaker 1>did your body sort of feel like?

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<v Speaker 2>I would say more like a supervillain than a superhero.

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<v Speaker 2>I was on Alexandra Loan an of Ar, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was doing the hack squats and it was nearing what

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<v Speaker 2>I thought was failure, and then I realized, like with gear.

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<v Speaker 2>Funny enough, it's called gear, I had like a second

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<v Speaker 2>gear I could switch into, and I just started pushing harder.

0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.360
<v Speaker 2>And I realized two things. One I could just keep going,

0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.640
<v Speaker 2>so I just kept doing reps. And the other was

0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the degree of perceptive tension I felt in my muscles,

0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Like the tension in my quads got to be so

0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.120
<v Speaker 2>high that I instantly had a realization of, ooh, this

0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.760
<v Speaker 2>is how people tear muscles off bones when they're on steroids,

0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.760
<v Speaker 2>Because like The amount of tension I was feeling was

0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.040
<v Speaker 2>like nothing I had ever willfully imposed on myself. And

0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.800
<v Speaker 2>I'd competed in powerlifting, I'd squad of five hundred for

0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.080
<v Speaker 2>reps by then, and I still never fought my quads

0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.319
<v Speaker 2>contract that hard. And so I stopped the set because

0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.679
<v Speaker 2>I was like, it's dumb. This could be really bad.

0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.160
<v Speaker 2>And so from then on I really started to respect

0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.400
<v Speaker 2>the amount of OO you can get out of your

0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.120
<v Speaker 2>muscles if you're enhanced. From then on, I capped my

0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.080
<v Speaker 2>relative effort pretty decently how hard you work in anyone's set,

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.400
<v Speaker 2>because I realized that it's those tail end two or

0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.400
<v Speaker 2>three reps that have a much higher chance of injuring

0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.760
<v Speaker 2>you if you're enhanced, and you can just flip that

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.040
<v Speaker 2>switch and just go crazy.

0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Are muscle tears pretty common if you're on steroids.

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 2>Much more common than they are when all of steroids.

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:51.559
<v Speaker 2>There are two factors largely that account for that. One

0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.760
<v Speaker 2>factor is that when you're stronger, your muscles are stronger,

0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>and they're pulling on your attendance, and they can just

0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>pull a higher force, and so they have of like

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:05.440
<v Speaker 2>a higher probability of breaking those other structures anytime anyone stronger,

0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 2>the probability of injury goes up if they're pushing themselves.

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>The probability of injury going goes down in all of

0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.160
<v Speaker 2>like standard life tasks, because those have a certain level

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of strength requisite that's just stable. So like probability you

0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.760
<v Speaker 2>get hurt falling goes down exponentially as you get stronger,

0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.200
<v Speaker 2>you're just the same you and you fall the same distance,

0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 2>and then your muscles are stronger, tendons are stronger, But

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.160
<v Speaker 2>the probability you get hurt bench pressing exponentially skyrockets when

0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.040
<v Speaker 2>you go from three hundred pound bench to four one

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 2>pound bench to five hundred pound bench. Every six hundred

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.280
<v Speaker 2>pound bench is testing the limits of am I going

0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640
<v Speaker 2>to pop my packs today? And the other reason is

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.880
<v Speaker 2>the steroids can radically increase the strength and size of

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>your muscles, but they don't increase the strength and size

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.880
<v Speaker 2>of your connective tissues like your tendons, nearly as fast.

0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.680
<v Speaker 2>And so especially if you're early into a steroid cycho,

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.559
<v Speaker 2>you're going very heavy, it's just been a few weeks

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and your strength is escalating really fast. That probability that

0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 2>your muscles are now so much stronger than your tendons

0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and so absolutely strong, and it multiplies together and forms

0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.440
<v Speaker 2>a little perfect storm for evulsion injury where your muscles tear,

0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 2>come off the bone and all that other stuff. I mean,

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.439
<v Speaker 2>one gentleman at a gym UM's training in North Carolina,

0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.360
<v Speaker 2>he took his bench from three point fifteen for one

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.440
<v Speaker 2>rep max to four h five for one rep max

0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 2>in one month, which is an outlier even for a trend,

0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.600
<v Speaker 2>but possible. If I were him, I would have never

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 2>attempted four o five after a month, because that is

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 2>like the exact case, Chris, where like that's how you

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.600
<v Speaker 2>tear your shit, because think about it, your tendons adapt

0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.240
<v Speaker 2>on months and years of timescale in not weeks. And

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.800
<v Speaker 2>so he's roughly the same tendon strength as he had

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 2>a month ago, but his muscles were exhibiting a strength

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 2>that was twenty five thirty percent higher. You're asking for it.

0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 2>He didn't get hurt, but everyone who doesn't get hurt

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 2>is a testament to the fact that absolute risk of

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.680
<v Speaker 2>injury and the gym is very low. The relative risk

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.080
<v Speaker 2>when you're on a shipload of drugs is much much higher.

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Is there a story that comes to top of mind

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 1>for you? About feeling more aggressive or particularly anxious after

0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 1>you've been taking this stuff.

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 2>It was headed to the gym quite recently and just

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 2>taken long oral anavar or alexandrium, and I was driving

0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.800
<v Speaker 2>to the gym, and the var hits pretty fast, especially

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 2>if the tablet dissolves in your mouth, and so it

0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 2>was kind of like a like a little rocket ride

0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 2>you go on. And I was listening to a podcast

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and it got me thinking about somebody totally unrelated, and

0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 2>that totally unrelated thought process made me angry, and I

0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 2>just spent like twenty minutes in a car fuming, super

0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.600
<v Speaker 2>fucking pissed. And I was aware, very very coherently at

0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 2>the time that this was pharmacologically induced, but the thought

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:51.080
<v Speaker 2>stream of angry thoughts just kept going nonetheless and was

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 2>very uncomfortable. And so at the same time that I'm

0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.560
<v Speaker 2>experiencing this anger, I'm experiencing a tremendous amount of anxiety

0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.120
<v Speaker 2>about the lift I have coming up. I was hurt

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.360
<v Speaker 2>the time, like had a back injury, and so I

0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't even know if like the libror god I was

0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.480
<v Speaker 2>driving to was even gonna happen, or if I was

0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>going to discover like oh shit, like I can't train

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.440
<v Speaker 2>for a little while because of myron shift fucked up.

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.040
<v Speaker 2>So it was just absolutely nothing fun about that whatsoever.

0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:14.400
<v Speaker 2>That's how it felt. Sometimes.

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Have any of those episodes hit you while you were

0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:17.600
<v Speaker 1>training jiu jitsu?

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:19.800
<v Speaker 1>What was that like?

0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Better? Because jiu jitsu allows you to express some of

0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 2>that better but also sometimes worse. The degree of impatience

0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 2>than I have rises when on steroids, and the degree

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.280
<v Speaker 2>anxiety rises, and I remember drilling and just just kind

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 2>of wanting everything to be over, like I just don't

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 2>want to fucking be here at me anywhere. And that's

0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 2>like not really a good attitude to have for training sport.

0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.080
<v Speaker 2>And then one time I was peeking for a bodybuilding

0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 2>show and I was taking in a steroid called floximesterone Halo

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 2>testom aka halo Halo's not something else ever take again

0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 2>very likely because it makes me really really angry, but

0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 2>not anxiously angry, righteously angry. And so I remember I

0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 2>had I was a white belt, and I had passed

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 2>somebody's guard in the gee and went to me on belly.

0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.680
<v Speaker 2>My first thought that I had was, oh, I should

0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>reach down and open up their rib cage like that

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.520
<v Speaker 2>was actually like a thought that entered into my mind

0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.919
<v Speaker 2>that you should do that. And obviously, as I had

0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that thought, I was like, what the why why it's

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.359
<v Speaker 2>not a jiu jitsu move. It's wildly and realistic. It

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>would kill this person. Everything's wrong with that. They can

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.120
<v Speaker 2>be wrong with it, And I was like, holy shit,

0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.800
<v Speaker 2>that's a that's an interesting thought. But the amount of

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>like dedication and energy for passing guard that I got

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 2>from Halo was like monumental. Like you ever rolled with

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 2>someone and they're like trying to pass your guard and

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.000
<v Speaker 2>you're like, can't they just give up? Like can't they

0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 2>just get tired? And with Halo, you don't really feel

0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 2>like giving up or getting tired. You're just like a

0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.600
<v Speaker 2>door jam, just blood them to the fucking door. And

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:52.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a reason that lots of people in

0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.959
<v Speaker 2>the tasteteroids, you know, enough steroids will give you kind

0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.320
<v Speaker 2>of confidence to some extent, like you know, some people

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.160
<v Speaker 2>get like precomic anxiety, like they'll see the other guy

0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.119
<v Speaker 2>across the way and you know, like you're registering at

0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>your table or whatever in competition, because you know, people

0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.359
<v Speaker 2>will get some thoughts about doubt and stuff like that, like, oh,

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm that guy, Like he's got old team and he's

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:12.560
<v Speaker 2>got a bunch of stripes on his belt and what

0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>the same belt ring. Maybe he's a killer, you know

0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 2>that thought like that, maybe he's a killer thought or whatever.

0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.240
<v Speaker 2>And like, if you're on enough steroids and you have

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty decent sports psychology, it's easy to get in the

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.760
<v Speaker 2>mind frame of like, dude, this fucking chump made a

0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 2>stupid decision signing up for my bracket, and I'm gonna

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.000
<v Speaker 2>show him why. It's really offensive to me that he

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.160
<v Speaker 2>decided to come here like he shouldn't have and he's

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.880
<v Speaker 2>going to be in a real nasty, nasty world as

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.160
<v Speaker 2>soon as possible. And so if you have that kind

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.919
<v Speaker 2>of mindset, if you're also good, it can help. So

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 2>however good you are, that kind of confidence mindset of

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 2>like fuck this chump, that helps, and you know that's like, uh,

0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.800
<v Speaker 2>that's cool. I guess it's not fun, but it works.

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.240
<v Speaker 1>So Wow, when you had that thought about wanting to rip,

0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, your training partner's rib cage open, what was

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.160
<v Speaker 1>your reaction in that moment? Did you pause and bow

0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.440
<v Speaker 1>out or did you keep going?

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.280
<v Speaker 2>I just went chest to chest and went north south

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.720
<v Speaker 2>and started asserting kee chokes. It's like, know what I'm doing,

0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.639
<v Speaker 2>But I was kind of giggling in my head like whoa,

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.399
<v Speaker 2>that was weird. It was like surreal, you know, like

0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.560
<v Speaker 2>holy fuck. It's like, you know, if you're on mushrooms

0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.159
<v Speaker 2>and you're at a gas station getting a drink and

0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.240
<v Speaker 2>the person the band encounter looks like their head looks

0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.199
<v Speaker 2>like the sun or something, you're unlikely to just be like, oh,

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.160
<v Speaker 2>oh sorry, I don't want to drink from the sun.

0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Your pie is still like, oh, here's my credit card,

0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.280
<v Speaker 2>while you're like, oh my god, I just don't say anything,

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>and you walk out and you're like, oh, like I

0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.000
<v Speaker 2>just see that guy's face and just yeah, it look crazy,

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:44.520
<v Speaker 2>and you like just laugh about it, like that's kind

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of how it felt. It wasn't like it didn't throw

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 2>me off or anything like that, and it's just like

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 2>a little blip in the radar, like, oh that's interesting.

0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:00.800
<v Speaker 1>So, you know, the sort of stuff is becoming a

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.639
<v Speaker 1>little bit more normalized throughout the fitness wellness industry in

0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.760
<v Speaker 1>no small part like thanks to your influence and your

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.000
<v Speaker 1>curiosity and willingness to experiment where are you sort of

0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.480
<v Speaker 1>hoping to see usage like this take the industry as

0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:13.800
<v Speaker 1>a whole.

0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:16.640
<v Speaker 2>I hope it's going to end within a few years,

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:18.120
<v Speaker 2>and I think it will. I think it's a high

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:24.320
<v Speaker 2>probability it will. Steroids are a hammer when you need tweezers.

0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:30.200
<v Speaker 2>What we want from steroids typically maybe an enormous faction

0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of what we wanted as steroids is muscle growth, just

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.240
<v Speaker 2>skeletal muscle hypertrophy. What we get from them is a

0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.159
<v Speaker 2>hormone that wasn't simply designed to enhance scale of a

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:41.119
<v Speaker 2>muscle hypertrophy.

0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.879
<v Speaker 1>Can you briefly explain how hypertrophy works?

0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.159
<v Speaker 2>So basically like, you have a variety of mechanisms in

0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.440
<v Speaker 2>your muscles that sends a few things and respond by

0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.280
<v Speaker 2>telling the muscle to grow more of itself. The number

0:20:56.320 --> 0:21:00.560
<v Speaker 2>one of these mechanisms is mechanical tension detectors. Your body

0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 2>detects that there's a lot of mechanical tension and a

0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 2>given muscle, it kind of gives the signal to the

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.920
<v Speaker 2>rest of the cell, different parts like the nucleus, like hey, yeah,

0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 2>let's start growing some more muscle. And if you get

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.040
<v Speaker 2>this in a high signal like not just one rep,

0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 2>but multiple reps, not just one step, with multiple sets,

0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.159
<v Speaker 2>and when you're recovered enough halfway through the week to

0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.160
<v Speaker 2>do another multiple sets again, you get this repeated, consistent

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.200
<v Speaker 2>signal grow Grow, Grow, Grow, and then all of a sudden,

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 2>you're getting more jacked. And that's kind of a core

0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.040
<v Speaker 2>of how I purchase it works. So you resistant strain,

0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.119
<v Speaker 2>lift heavy things, impose mechanical tension, and then if you

0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.639
<v Speaker 2>eat enough protein and calories, then you get more jacked

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.080
<v Speaker 2>over several months, and then if you keep going several

0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:42.119
<v Speaker 2>years and so on, so forth. The testosterone hormone is

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.480
<v Speaker 2>designed to do one very specific things to masculinize an

0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 2>entire organism, and that means grow hair, increase the amount

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.320
<v Speaker 2>of oil secreted by the skin, deep in the voice,

0:21:54.880 --> 0:22:00.560
<v Speaker 2>give you more male like thoughts, aggression, lower verbal fluency,

0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 2>all these things that just have absolutely nothing to do

0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:08.160
<v Speaker 2>with muscle growth. And so what we're looking at now,

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.480
<v Speaker 2>who's a very different environment where aipowered drug discovery is

0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.120
<v Speaker 2>going to be like the big story of the late

0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.439
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenties. And so we're also in this world where

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.400
<v Speaker 2>we have this incredible constant proof of concept with the

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.199
<v Speaker 2>weight loss drugs that have recently come up, so like

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.119
<v Speaker 2>ozenpic and Manjaro and all those other drugs, and so

0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 2>it was possible to get drugs that does like a

0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.080
<v Speaker 2>really really good job of promoting fat loss and it

0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.240
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't have a ton of side effects compared to

0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:43.520
<v Speaker 2>steroids via long shot, and so because of that principle,

0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:47.119
<v Speaker 2>the pharmaceutical aspect of the medical field is kind of

0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:52.680
<v Speaker 2>starting to turn its eye of sauron towards non androgenic anabolics,

0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:55.639
<v Speaker 2>which are drugs that would increase scalt and muscle like

0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.840
<v Speaker 2>pertrop fee, but have a very few side effects, very

0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.520
<v Speaker 2>specific targeting, and they're going to crack that. They've probably

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 2>already cracked it in the lab, and it's just a

0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.880
<v Speaker 2>matter of getting through animal trials and then human trials,

0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 2>and these non androgenic anabolics are going to be an

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.280
<v Speaker 2>unbelievable revolution for athletes and for people who just want

0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:17.119
<v Speaker 2>to be more jacked, because then I suspect most people

0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that are thinking it through will end up being on

0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.199
<v Speaker 2>testosterone replacement therapy, So just just enough testosterume to make

0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>you feel better and be healthier, which is like a

0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:28.239
<v Speaker 2>much an arrow arrange that people take for enhancement, and

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.120
<v Speaker 2>then the rest of your anabolic drive will come from

0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.440
<v Speaker 2>these drugs that will have ten times fewer side effects

0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.480
<v Speaker 2>then steroids. And I think these drugs are going to

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.360
<v Speaker 2>hit the gray market. I would say, if I had

0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:42.320
<v Speaker 2>to guess, slash Hope, maybe twenty twenty eight or so.

0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Kind of the real golden fleece would be an oral,

0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.240
<v Speaker 2>small molecule, non rogenic anabolic, which means you could just

0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.840
<v Speaker 2>take a pill, means it survives the digestion process, it

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.560
<v Speaker 2>doesn't screw up your liver or something, and it just

0:23:56.640 --> 0:24:00.199
<v Speaker 2>grows muscle and does almost nothing else. The medical incentive

0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:04.280
<v Speaker 2>and the pharmaceutical profit incentive for discovering such drugs is

0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.000
<v Speaker 2>not only massive, but it's been well described in the literature.

0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Because now we have older people that are using these

0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.200
<v Speaker 2>weight loss drugs, and they're amazing for their health, but

0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.479
<v Speaker 2>they're losing tons of muscle. And you can tell them

0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 2>to lift weights and eat more protein. That absolutely helps,

0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 2>But they're already using a drug to help them lose weight.

0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Might as well use a drug to help them keep

0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:22.919
<v Speaker 2>the muscle on. And so I think these drugs are inevitable,

0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think they could do an unbelievable thing for

0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:28.359
<v Speaker 2>the sport community because they're going to make people stop

0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>or curtail their use of steroids that are fucking poisonous

0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.159
<v Speaker 2>and destroying your body and your mind and replace the

0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.360
<v Speaker 2>most drugs that are just categorically better. I think that's

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.200
<v Speaker 2>coming really soon. They are likely to have probably zero

0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 2>psychological effects. They probably won't have any effects on cardiac tissue.

0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:46.680
<v Speaker 2>It's probably not going to be much involvement with heart,

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:49.480
<v Speaker 2>there's probably going to be no involvement or minimal involvement

0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:53.480
<v Speaker 2>with liver and kidneys, and probably not going to be neurodegenerative,

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>like many steroids are in high amounts. I predict in

0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.119
<v Speaker 2>the late twenty twenties, you leve older folks taking a

0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.159
<v Speaker 2>combination of them most advanced weight loss drugs of the

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:06.480
<v Speaker 2>time and in combination with the most advanced or available

0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:09.880
<v Speaker 2>non entergamic kindabolic charities at the time, and like over

0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the course of like six months to a year, you'll

0:25:12.440 --> 0:25:15.399
<v Speaker 2>see lots of people drop twenty to thirty pounds of

0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>fat and add ten to fifteen pounds of muscle at

0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 2>the same time. I mean, that's just like a total transformation,

0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 2>and health wise, it's just going to be a total renaissance.

0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious about when you first heard about the Enhanced

0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:29.639
<v Speaker 1>Games and what they were trying to do, and what

0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 1>your first impression of, you know, this whole experiment was.

0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I was really really pleased

0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody's trying to do this sort of thing, because I

0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.000
<v Speaker 2>remember we had like a seminar class in my master's

0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:45.560
<v Speaker 2>program where it was to kind of debate format, and

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:49.120
<v Speaker 2>I took the position that there should be an enhanced

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Olympics or a non tested Olympics and a tested Olympics.

0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was just split into two, but I

0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:58.119
<v Speaker 2>think it's At some points I was the only person

0:25:58.160 --> 0:25:59.919
<v Speaker 2>in a class of like thirty people who is our

0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:02.280
<v Speaker 2>being my position, and I thought I had made some

0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>pretty compelling points, at least in my own head, and

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:06.879
<v Speaker 2>so I thought it was kind of an open and

0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:13.560
<v Speaker 2>shutcase that enhanced competition was not just better for the

0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:16.879
<v Speaker 2>overall state of competition, but it was actually better for

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:22.640
<v Speaker 2>natural competition because you no longer had to do this

0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 2>pretend like so currently the Olympics is mostly pretend. We

0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.200
<v Speaker 2>pretend that the athletes are drug free. They pretend they're

0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:32.280
<v Speaker 2>drug free. The testing committee pretends it's ahead of the curve.

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:34.880
<v Speaker 2>It's almost never ahead of the curve. If you had

0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 2>an untested federation all the Olympics, you could just be like,

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 2>look checks out, you get popped for drugs in the natural,

0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:49.879
<v Speaker 2>are cheating? You get caught cheating. We have one of

0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.679
<v Speaker 2>two things we could do. One idea is, let's say

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:55.400
<v Speaker 2>you get popped on the drug free, every single record

0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:59.879
<v Speaker 2>of yours is completely stripped, and you are allowed now

0:26:59.880 --> 0:27:03.320
<v Speaker 2>to compete in the enhanced version if you'd like. So

0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 2>it's like accounts for tests being false positives, you know,

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:09.720
<v Speaker 2>because like sometimes you fail a test, but you never

0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:11.800
<v Speaker 2>really were anything like Statistically, it has to happen to

0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 2>sub fraction of tests. It's a low fraction, but you're

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:16.239
<v Speaker 2>testing thousands of athletes five or six every year are

0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:17.840
<v Speaker 2>going to be popped for drugs and just never took.

0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>And so that's like a very nice way to do it.

0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:24.679
<v Speaker 2>The other way to do it is everyone signs the

0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:26.720
<v Speaker 2>contract beforehand to say, if you ever get popped for

0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:31.800
<v Speaker 2>drugs in the natural, your records get stripped. You're never

0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:33.879
<v Speaker 2>allowed to compete in that sport or in any sport

0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:37.359
<v Speaker 2>associated Olympics ever again, enhanced or not, So just don't

0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 2>fucking lie and you're good to go. And so that right,

0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 2>there is a model that's similar to what they do

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:47.840
<v Speaker 2>in natural versus enhanced bodybuilding and powerlifting today, and the

0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:51.359
<v Speaker 2>rate of drug cheating in those sports is phenomenally lower

0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:54.400
<v Speaker 2>than it is at the Olympics, because if you want

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:55.960
<v Speaker 2>to take drugs, there's a place where you can do

0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:58.240
<v Speaker 2>it and just compete against the best guys. And since

0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>the best guys compete in the drug version anyway, the

0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:04.119
<v Speaker 2>probability that people cheat to win a local natural bodybuilding

0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:06.119
<v Speaker 2>title it was just like way, way smaller. But if

0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:08.399
<v Speaker 2>there was just one bodybuilding show and it had to

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 2>be drug free and if national pride was on the line,

0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:13.639
<v Speaker 2>then yeah, everyone would cheat like they do currently in

0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>the Olympics. So that was kind of my thought process

0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 2>at the time. And then when I saw that the

0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:20.880
<v Speaker 2>enhance games were happening, I was like, whoa, this is cool.

0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Someone's actually doing some version of this. So I got

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 2>really good.

0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:27.080
<v Speaker 1>But what do you make of the argument that USADA

0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>and WADA and other governing bodies make sports more fair?

0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:34.840
<v Speaker 2>It's good argument, It's marginally true, except the margins who

0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:39.080
<v Speaker 2>will be small. You know, the mistake I think a

0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:42.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of people make, a very very honest mistake, is

0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 2>assuming that testing is a guarantee or near guarantee that

0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>people don't cheat, and it's not. It's just a certain

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:52.800
<v Speaker 2>level of effect, right. It's like if you're a super rich,

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.959
<v Speaker 2>famous person and you just have no security, and then

0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:58.760
<v Speaker 2>you have a security apparatus in place, like you hire bodyguards.

0:28:59.080 --> 0:29:01.480
<v Speaker 2>The bodyguards do not guarantee that you're not going to die.

0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Some of them could just take a sniper shot for

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.479
<v Speaker 2>really far off And even if you have the Secret Service,

0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>as we clearly saw with President Trump recently, people still

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:13.600
<v Speaker 2>say shots at you. So there's no guarantee. All effects

0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:15.440
<v Speaker 2>are mardrone. And I think a lot of people think like, oh,

0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:17.440
<v Speaker 2>like there's testing in the Olympics, that means it's drug free.

0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:19.320
<v Speaker 2>It's like no, no, no, no, no no no. That just

0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:22.120
<v Speaker 2>means the probability it's drug free goes up. That there's

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:25.280
<v Speaker 2>a very big difference between more fair and totally fair,

0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.480
<v Speaker 2>like huge difference, and I think that gets lost a

0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:28.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit.

0:29:31.320 --> 0:29:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Do you have any sort of concerns about what they

0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 1>enhanced games are going to do in terms of normalizing

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:41.160
<v Speaker 1>PD use in the future of sports.

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, for sure, they could hit younger demographics and

0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:48.760
<v Speaker 2>normalize PD use and give them heroes to look up to,

0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and people don't want to run the kitchen sink, and

0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:54.320
<v Speaker 2>that's definitely a thing. So again that effect is going

0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>to be marginal. An effect is highly modified by messaging.

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:01.160
<v Speaker 2>The thing is, this is nothing new. We you know,

0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:04.600
<v Speaker 2>when Billy the eight year old who loves baseball finds

0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:08.000
<v Speaker 2>out that, you know, a lot of talented athletes also

0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 2>go to strip clubs often, and some of them are

0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:15.080
<v Speaker 2>very disrespectful to the opposite sex, even physical at times.

0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Some of them drink alcohol, I know, it's crazy, and

0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:23.200
<v Speaker 2>use recreational marijuana and even cocaine. You know, it's typically

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:25.000
<v Speaker 2>quite easy for mom and dad to be like now,

0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 2>so when older people or adults they do some adult

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>stuff and you've got to do kids stuff. It's a

0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:31.320
<v Speaker 2>great athlete, just don't look up to him for that

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 2>stuff that he does outside of sport. It's hypothetically, roughly

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:36.640
<v Speaker 2>as easy to tell the kid, Look, these guys use

0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:39.640
<v Speaker 2>steroids and all this crazy stuff because they're adults, and

0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:41.520
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't screw up their young bodies, and that's true,

0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.040
<v Speaker 2>like a few stereos are you're younger, it screws you

0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>up like way way worse, totally different ways too, And

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>so I think that normalization should be put into context

0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:52.400
<v Speaker 2>of it's absolutely a thing and could absolutely raise rates marginally,

0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:55.800
<v Speaker 2>but an honest discussion about that this is an adult

0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.400
<v Speaker 2>thing and an honest declaration about the system for everyone

0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and has side effects could have an effect of both normalizing, contextualizing,

0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:06.360
<v Speaker 2>and making the use less extreme. Here's another really trippy

0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:07.800
<v Speaker 2>thing that happens with teenagers that I think a lot

0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 2>of people don't account for. When you make something forbidden

0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 2>and cool and you lie about it, the teens just

0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:16.400
<v Speaker 2>want to do it. When you make it a technical

0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:19.440
<v Speaker 2>quality that advanced athletes like compose on themselves, and you

0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:21.640
<v Speaker 2>make it nuanced and you make it acceptable, but like

0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:23.959
<v Speaker 2>it's gnarly, and you talk about all the side effects openly,

0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, they're like, I don't any I

0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:27.400
<v Speaker 2>guess I'll use that when it comes time to it,

0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not rushing into it because it's not even

0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>like it's not forbidden. You look at like what's happened

0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:33.200
<v Speaker 2>with weed since it became mostly legal in the US,

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>and most teenagers are like someone's like, hey, do you

0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:39.640
<v Speaker 2>want to do weed? My dad does weed. No, I'm fine,

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, right, okay. So if you normalize use

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.320
<v Speaker 2>of various compounds for adults, it does take the edge off,

0:31:46.360 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 2>which actually could drive more responsible use potentially in some cases.

0:31:50.600 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Wow, is there like a general like baseline age one

0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 1>should be if they're curious about enhancing themselves.

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 2>They are like physiological developmental landmarks. So you hit and

0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.239
<v Speaker 2>I would say by your mid to late twenties, your

0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:16.280
<v Speaker 2>brain has matured in macrostructural ways that probably steroids won't

0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:19.720
<v Speaker 2>reverse or inhibit. So I'd say, like after age twenty five,

0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:22.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a fine time to get on. Before

0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 2>aage twenty five, I just wouldn't do it. The other

0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>thing is, before age twenty five you are in the

0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:31.000
<v Speaker 2>prime of your life physically and getting incredible gains anyway,

0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and so might as well build a huge natural base

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:36.280
<v Speaker 2>and really milk out everything you can out of your

0:32:36.360 --> 0:32:39.640
<v Speaker 2>like your natural physique, natural abilities, and then have a

0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 2>really fun time enhancing over the course of the next

0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:45.200
<v Speaker 2>ten years. Rather than shooting your load early enhancing when

0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:47.000
<v Speaker 2>you're eighteen, and then by twenty four year out of

0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>the spot, the torn pack, torn bicep, and I'd like

0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 2>shitload of kidney problems.

0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:52.719
<v Speaker 1>How does like the current state of steroid use, how

0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:53.880
<v Speaker 1>does that affect sex drive?

0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:56.480
<v Speaker 2>You can have fact sex drive in a few different ways,

0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:59.560
<v Speaker 2>and it depends on what you're taking, what doses, how

0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.920
<v Speaker 2>you respond to it. And the classic, most common way

0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>is it increases sex drive. It's not just a quantity difference,

0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:07.800
<v Speaker 2>it's a quality difference. The other two ways of that

0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:09.640
<v Speaker 2>are common. There's a bunch of different ways that are not.

0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:12.760
<v Speaker 2>One is like they reduced sex drive. So, for example,

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.160
<v Speaker 2>if you take some kinds of steroids that don't convert

0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 2>into estrogen, some of who can block estertyperversion, and if

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:20.520
<v Speaker 2>you're not replacing the testosterone, end up having a very

0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:23.040
<v Speaker 2>low estrogen state. It actually turns out that a decent

0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 2>amount of estrogen is required for high sex drive, as

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have high estrogen, in fact, very low estrogen.

0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:30.720
<v Speaker 2>You just like look at people's bodies and you're like, oh,

0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>she's really hot, and someone's like do you want it?

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:34.680
<v Speaker 2>And you're like, I have no desire to do anything

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:36.520
<v Speaker 2>with that. Person at all, like or you don't feel anything.

0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.120
<v Speaker 2>It's weird. So that's the thing. And then the other

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 2>one is some steroids in particular class, the nandrolones, so

0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:51.560
<v Speaker 2>decaduraboland nandrolone to cannolate causes something called Decca dick, which

0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:55.880
<v Speaker 2>is like a good old eighties slaying and basically means

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>that you lose a large fraction of very rectile function

0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:03.200
<v Speaker 2>and there's nothing wrong with you, it's just the chemical

0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:05.800
<v Speaker 2>pathway there that the drug interacts with makes you just

0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.840
<v Speaker 2>not have boners anymore, but you have commentanthing, really really

0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 2>horny because Decca like radically escalates your astronic exposure and

0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:15.080
<v Speaker 2>so you just really want it. And then the time

0:34:15.080 --> 0:34:17.640
<v Speaker 2>comes and you're like tada, your boys like a fucking

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.520
<v Speaker 2>tube sock baby, ain't none happening. And so I think

0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 2>some people are like, man, I can't wait to take

0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:24.279
<v Speaker 2>stare it's get super high sex drive, and they run

0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:25.840
<v Speaker 2>into one of those two other effects and they're like

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.319
<v Speaker 2>what the fuck is going on? But for the most part,

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>yea sex drive is increased, so like the number of

0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:33.800
<v Speaker 2>times you randomly drift to thinking about sex through the

0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>day can go up a lot. It can alter or

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:39.920
<v Speaker 2>broad on your range of people that you find attractive.

0:34:41.160 --> 0:34:45.200
<v Speaker 2>The depth of emotion and sexual emotion in the interaction

0:34:45.280 --> 0:34:52.520
<v Speaker 2>can escalate wildly. Your degree of risk taking and sexual

0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 2>interactions you probably should avoid goes up. It can go

0:34:56.680 --> 0:35:00.000
<v Speaker 2>up if you're not like cognitively gating your decision made.

0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:02.839
<v Speaker 1>Does the sex drive thing apply to women as well?

0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:05.759
<v Speaker 2>From my experience, it applies more to women than it

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:09.400
<v Speaker 2>does to that. Wow, the amount of testosterone or testosterone

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 2>like androgenic steroids that women typically have is like almost zero.

0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:16.319
<v Speaker 2>It's like a rounding air, and then they take even

0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.680
<v Speaker 2>really small doses it like twenty or forty axes their

0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 2>andron exposure right away. That huge of a difference is

0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.759
<v Speaker 2>you gotta feel. Whereas if a guy produces normal testosteron

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:28.400
<v Speaker 2>holes naturally, then he gets some pretty decent cycle. I

0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:31.880
<v Speaker 2>think maybe you're five xing in the amount that he's experiencing.

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:33.879
<v Speaker 2>At a five x versus forty, it's a very different

0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:35.080
<v Speaker 2>psychological experiencing.

0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you see a connection between sort of like the

0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:41.160
<v Speaker 1>desire for young men to experiment with injectables right now

0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:43.840
<v Speaker 1>and sort of like where the state of modern manhood

0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:44.880
<v Speaker 1>is at all?

0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.920
<v Speaker 2>My first caveat is a absolute no idea. So the

0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:51.840
<v Speaker 2>following speculation. One intellectual trait that I've tried to impose

0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:56.200
<v Speaker 2>on myself over the years is that double check that

0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:59.399
<v Speaker 2>the phenomenon you are discussing is an extant phenomenon before

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:01.879
<v Speaker 2>you begin to discs And so when people talk about

0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the masculinity crisis, I just I'm not sure if that's true.

0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Is there a well defined, clearly articulated metric compared over

0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:15.360
<v Speaker 2>the cohorts ten to fifteen years back in perpetuity a

0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 2>masculinity crisis of any kind they could withstand rigorous empirical

0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 2>cross checking for confounders. I don't know if that's the case.

0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:25.839
<v Speaker 2>I think the vast, vast majority people that will tell

0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you we have a mascinity crisis and be like, can

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:30.320
<v Speaker 2>you explicitly and specifically define what that means and compared

0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.600
<v Speaker 2>to Cohort analysis from ten to fifty years ago, back

0:36:33.640 --> 0:36:35.520
<v Speaker 2>back back back back like that to show like both

0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:38.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of the ideology of how it's happening. And you're

0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 2>gonna lose them real quick because they just have like notions,

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.560
<v Speaker 2>like ideas that there is a masculinated crisis and it

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:45.400
<v Speaker 2>looks like this, and you go, well, actually, in the

0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:47.520
<v Speaker 2>following ways, men are better than I ever been before,

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.279
<v Speaker 2>and are like, oh fuck, But some people on the

0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 2>internet are upset. I guess now, are there some people,

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:58.440
<v Speaker 2>some sub demographics, in some age groups and some races

0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:01.040
<v Speaker 2>that are struggling in ways they have I haven't struggled before.

0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:04.759
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely does that have anything to do with people's and

0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:08.640
<v Speaker 2>embracing of steroids and stuff? And I don't know. I

0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:11.720
<v Speaker 2>suspect the answer is probably not. You know, the people

0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:14.799
<v Speaker 2>that are that have in masculinity crises, I don't know

0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>if they're less likely to use steroids, they are more

0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:21.160
<v Speaker 2>likely to use steroids. Stereoids are like a reassertion and

0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:24.239
<v Speaker 2>an enhancement of masculinity, and you've like lost touch with

0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:26.480
<v Speaker 2>your masculinity. You may get a lot out of steroids

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:27.799
<v Speaker 2>to get you back in touch with it, but you're

0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:29.680
<v Speaker 2>also may be way less likely to even try them

0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:31.480
<v Speaker 2>because you're like, fuck, what do they need with that?

0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:33.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, like a lot of your kids today they

0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.120
<v Speaker 2>have like the broccoli haircuts and the hoodie sweatshirts, and

0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:38.000
<v Speaker 2>they do like weed and xanax a lot. And you're like,

0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 2>do you want to like become jacked and vainye and

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:41.359
<v Speaker 2>be good at sports And I'm like, no, that's fucking lame,

0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:44.200
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, right, okay, well that didn't work. So

0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:46.799
<v Speaker 2>my best answer there is that I'm just not sure.

0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if any connection is there whatsoever. It

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>would be cool if there was a clean connection that

0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 2>it may very well be. I just would be like

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:55.000
<v Speaker 2>really reserved about being like, yes, of course, that's how

0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:57.840
<v Speaker 2>it works. As TRT is a response to the masculinity crisis,

0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:00.520
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, but but there is a masculinatory.

0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:04.360
<v Speaker 1>But what do you make of the argument between fairness

0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:07.840
<v Speaker 1>something that can help an athlete versus something that would

0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:09.359
<v Speaker 1>make sports more fair?

0:38:11.520 --> 0:38:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Fairness is a trip. People have fairness. They usually have

0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.279
<v Speaker 2>a concept of what economist and philosopher Thomas Soul call

0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 2>a notion. So to say, idea you have in your

0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:21.120
<v Speaker 2>hand is very poorly defined. If you try to explain

0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 2>it specifically, you usually run around and you're like, I actually,

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know what I'm saying. So fairness is

0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>like a vibe, you know, But like, what's fair about

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 2>me playing basketball against Lebron James? What's fair about anyone

0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:35.320
<v Speaker 2>playing basketball against Lebron, he was born perfect. Like, what's

0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:38.040
<v Speaker 2>fair about having better genetics than someone At the end

0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:40.440
<v Speaker 2>of the day, sport is a huge test of genetics.

0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.399
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely nothing fair about that whatsoever. And so if someone

0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:47.799
<v Speaker 2>has allowed to open season on enhancements, everything's fair as

0:38:47.840 --> 0:38:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I use whatever you want hit. I really like that

0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the enhanced game seems to be going in the direction

0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:54.680
<v Speaker 2>of the going to monitor health, including like the day

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:57.120
<v Speaker 2>of competition, and if you don't have the right biomarkers

0:38:57.120 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, they just won't let you compete because they're like,

0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:02.800
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to croak on fucking watch, and that's important.

0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 2>I think that's really good. So I think you just

0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:08.440
<v Speaker 2>need to set like reasonable health parameters and then test

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:10.760
<v Speaker 2>your athlete pool to make sure they're not exceeding those,

0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 2>and if they are, you retire them or tell them, look,

0:39:13.719 --> 0:39:14.960
<v Speaker 2>come back in six months. You're not gonna be able

0:39:14.960 --> 0:39:16.200
<v Speaker 2>to compete for six months. And if you come back

0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:18.399
<v Speaker 2>with better blood work, well you can bet a lot

0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:21.359
<v Speaker 2>of enhancements have health trade offs. It's not just true

0:39:21.360 --> 0:39:25.279
<v Speaker 2>for enhancements for example, like downhill skiing. It just doesn't

0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 2>take a lot of creativity to imagine how that could

0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:30.000
<v Speaker 2>go wrong, and most sports themselves are not healthy for

0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:31.759
<v Speaker 2>you to be doing. The number of people that die

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.120
<v Speaker 2>in skiing accidents makes anabolic steroids look like the safest

0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:36.640
<v Speaker 2>fucking thing in the world, and so people make trade offs,

0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:38.919
<v Speaker 2>and so that's kind of my perspective on that health

0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:41.359
<v Speaker 2>versus what's too much but it's not enough. It's really

0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:44.799
<v Speaker 2>up to the sport government body to decide, and the

0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:48.279
<v Speaker 2>athletes to decide, and the fans to decide, because there's

0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a not hypocrisy, but a bit of

0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:52.000
<v Speaker 2>a contradiction a lot of people have in a sport.

0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:54.640
<v Speaker 2>If you believe in any kind of modicum of freedom,

0:39:55.160 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 2>any kind of philosophy that spreads out to the rest

0:39:57.760 --> 0:39:59.799
<v Speaker 2>of the world, you have to believe that people that

0:39:59.880 --> 0:40:02.680
<v Speaker 2>are adults own themselves. If I own myself, I should

0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:04.440
<v Speaker 2>be able to do anything I want with myself that

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:06.080
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't hurt other people. So if I want to

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:08.680
<v Speaker 2>take a bunch of drugs and ski downhill and see

0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:12.880
<v Speaker 2>the competition Chris is whose blood splatter can go the

0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:15.479
<v Speaker 2>furthest after you hit a tree? You know what I'm saying.

0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:17.440
<v Speaker 2>If that's a sport, if the payouts are good enough

0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and then the glory is good enough. Fuck it, Mike,

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:20.040
<v Speaker 2>let's rip.

0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, Mike, You've You've been phenomenal. You are the Goat.

0:40:25.120 --> 0:40:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for for all of this. Superhuman

0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:32.680
<v Speaker 1>is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The

0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:36.000
<v Speaker 1>series is produced, reported, and co hosted by Sam Egan.

0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:39.920
<v Speaker 1>The Name is Zizzi's Mental is our senior producer. Production

0:40:40.000 --> 0:40:44.520
<v Speaker 1>support from Dara luck Potts, Edited by Kate Osborne, Editorial

0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:49.040
<v Speaker 1>consulting by Adiza Egan, original composition by Hannis Brown, mixing

0:40:49.080 --> 0:40:52.759
<v Speaker 1>by Pran Bandy, Reported and hosted by me Chris Guyamali.

0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:57.720
<v Speaker 1>From Kaleidoscope, Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Ozwa Oshan

0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:02.640
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0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:06.040
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0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:09.600
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