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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: A breakaway region of East Africa is coreing the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration for full recognition.

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Speaker 3: We have all ratios with United States, with Great Britain

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Speaker 3: and other countries, but now we hope that United States

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Speaker 3: may be the first to aggress somebody.

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Speaker 2: That Somaliland has failed to gain international recognition as a

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Speaker 2: sovereign state since proclaiming independence in nineteen ninety one, but

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Speaker 2: now hopes its minerals and key strategic location could change

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Speaker 2: us minds.

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Speaker 3: Somaliland is located in a very strategic location. It has

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Speaker 3: eight hundred and fifty kilometeries of seashore in the gallof Alfailia,

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Speaker 3: so you can understand the strategic location at Pepra.

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Speaker 2: On this episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look

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Speaker 2: at why Somaliland has struggled to get international recognition and

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Speaker 2: whether this new approach could start to turn the tide.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

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Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: can provide. Joining us this week is our reporter at Large,

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Speaker 2: Simon Marx, who's been reporting on this story for Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: News and did the interview earlier this week. Simon, great

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Speaker 2: to have you back on the podcast. So before we

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Speaker 2: get into the discussion that you had with the president,

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Speaker 2: let's just talk maybe about the history of Somaliland and

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Speaker 2: how we actually got to these initial discussions that are

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Speaker 2: being had right now. Can you give us a bit

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Speaker 2: of history about when the region first tried to break

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Speaker 2: away from Somalia.

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Speaker 1: Somaliland in terms of its modern history, it's worth going

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteen eighties under the said bar regime

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Speaker 1: in Somalia. There was a heavy civil war that began

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Speaker 1: to escalate during that period, and eventually in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: one that led to the collapse of the Somali central

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Speaker 1: government and the declaration of independence from what they called

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Speaker 1: the Republic of Somaliland. And this is really a moment

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Speaker 1: in history when Somaliland broke away from Somalia and began

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Speaker 1: to run in a sort of self autonomous fashion.

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Speaker 2: And you know, just from my brief reading on this,

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Speaker 2: there was quite a bit of international reaction back in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one when this independence was claimed. Can you

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Speaker 2: talk about initially what we heard from the international community

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Speaker 2: about this move.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so initially in the early nineties, there was very

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Speaker 1: little endorsement from the international community, So the likes of

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Speaker 1: European states, the US and many others worldwide refused to

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Speaker 1: recognize Somaliland's independence. There's a few outliers, the Taiwanese have

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Speaker 1: more recently started to do a lot of business with

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Speaker 1: Somali Land, you know, in part because of their own

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Speaker 1: sort of ideology around there independence from China. But by

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Speaker 1: and large, there's been no one else that's been very

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Speaker 1: sympathetic to their declaration and their autonomy.

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Speaker 2: And yet the independence has for the most part held

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Speaker 2: in the three decades or so since. Talk about the

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Speaker 2: relationship then between Somaliland, if you can, and Somalia and

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Speaker 2: what we've seen since nineteen ninety one between these two

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Speaker 2: independent states.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So Somalia in the capital Mogadisha, you know, they've

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Speaker 1: rolled out this so called One Somalia policy where it

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Speaker 1: wants to keep all its regional states together under one nation.

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Speaker 1: There's several autonomously run regions in Somalia, including Puntland, Jubiland.

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Speaker 1: You know, Somaliland is another one. So Somalia is pretty

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Speaker 1: fearful that its state can literally crumble apart and split up,

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Speaker 1: factionalize all over the place, and the international community through peacekeepers,

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Speaker 1: un troops on the ground and other proxies, you know,

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Speaker 1: supporting the government in Mogadishu a or trying to keep

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Speaker 1: this country together post its colonial period when the Italians

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Speaker 1: and the British had control. But Somaliland, interestingly, unlike the

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Speaker 1: rest of Somalia, has remained very peaceful. The government has

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Speaker 1: quite successfully kept things together. They've held I think six

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Speaker 1: rounds now of elections since the early two thousands, and

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Speaker 1: so while no one's accepted its sort of sovereignty issues,

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Speaker 1: they've also quietly kind of been quite pleased at how

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Speaker 1: the government have organized elections and organized its state and

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Speaker 1: kept peace in a pretty turbulent region.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, Simon, as someone who's traveled to Somalia, not

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Speaker 2: many people have what do you attribute that to. Do

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Speaker 2: you think Somalia, as you were just describing, is it's

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Speaker 2: just sort of fearful that the region in and of

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Speaker 2: itself will collapse, and therefore they've been unable to have

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Speaker 2: peace like Somaliland. I mean, I wonder if you can

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Speaker 2: give us some insight based on what you saw on

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Speaker 2: the ground in Somalia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. You know, Somalia since the collapse of

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Speaker 1: the government is in nineteen ninety one, has been through

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Speaker 1: such a huge amount. You know, there's been famine in

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Speaker 1: the early part of the nineties. Then you know, the

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Speaker 1: state has sort of fragmented. There's been the rise of

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Speaker 1: Islamists in the country, there's been civil war, and essentially

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Speaker 1: it's been a really hard place to govern. And as

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Speaker 1: a result, you have these various regions all seeking various

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Speaker 1: levels of autonomy. Some of them are completely autonomous and

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Speaker 1: are run independently from Mogadishu. And I think yeah, essentially,

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Speaker 1: for the people in power in Mogadishu, they see one

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Speaker 1: state gaining independence as something that could snowball and then

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Speaker 1: other states in the country could follow and they do

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Speaker 1: not want to see that happening.

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Speaker 2: Which brings me to the involvement. And I guess the

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Speaker 2: relationship that we've seen the US and other allies having

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Speaker 2: in this region. How significant is this for the US

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Speaker 2: and other allies that this region does not completely fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very much.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: You know, the US themselves have a long history in Somalia.

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Speaker 1: There was a US led military operation in the early nineties.

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Speaker 1: That's most famously depicted by the movie Black Hawk and

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Speaker 1: the Battle for Margadishu in nineteen ninety three, where they

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Speaker 1: tried to disperse isnymists and militias from the capitol. And

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Speaker 1: you know, if we fast forward a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 1: the US are still based there today. They have troops

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Speaker 1: and drone operations all fighting the al Shabab movement, which

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Speaker 1: has gained a lot in territory in recent months. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's part of I think the US anti terrorist policies globally.

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Speaker 1: Any move obviously from al Shabab taking over would follow

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Speaker 1: suit in what we've seen more recently in Afghanistan and

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Speaker 1: Syria with isnamists coming to power.

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Speaker 2: And stick with as Simon, when we come back, we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk more about the exclusive interview that you

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Speaker 2: had and also whether Somaliland's new approach might actually get

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Speaker 2: positive reception from the Trump administration. We'll be right back,

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Speaker 2: Welcome back today on the podcast, we're looking at Somaliland

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Speaker 2: and its new pitch to the US and the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration to try and get its independence recognized. Simon Marx

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Speaker 2: is joining US and had an interview with the President

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Speaker 2: from Somaliland. So, Simon, talk about the conversation you had

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Speaker 2: with the president and the offer and the pitch he's

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Speaker 2: making to the US.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So, I recently interviewed President Abdur Rahman Muhammad Abdullahi.

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Speaker 1: He came to power in Somaliland during the last elections

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Speaker 1: at the end of twenty twenty four, and he sort

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Speaker 1: of came in with lots of grassroots support like other

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Speaker 1: leaders in the country. He's also strongly in favor of recognition. However,

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Speaker 1: he did set out his stalls by saying he needs

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Speaker 1: to calm things domestically. There is some opposition to the

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Speaker 1: government in Somaliland. So he's managed to bring in thousands

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Speaker 1: of young militia fighters into the regional security forces. And

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Speaker 1: then he also pledged to calm the rhetoric and engage

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Speaker 1: with Somalia, which has gone less well because he in

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Speaker 1: his interview said that the Somalis have actually started trying

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Speaker 1: to put down their own administration in Somalia, which has

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Speaker 1: caused some tensions. However, internationally he's been pretty canny. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's stepped back from beating the drum on recognition and

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Speaker 1: he's more focused now on just actual ties and being

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Speaker 1: a good player internationally with a whole range of countries,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the Emiratis, the United States, the Europeans, and

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Speaker 1: he sort of thinks that if he can playball be

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Speaker 1: useful in the areas of security and trade and assistance

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Speaker 1: with Red Sea issues, whether the Hooties are active, that

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Speaker 1: will in a way just become a sort of effeta

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Speaker 1: complee for the country that could lead them to recognition

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Speaker 1: down the road.

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Speaker 2: And it's an interesting approach. And someone I was actually

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Speaker 2: communicating with online was pointing to the fact that we've

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Speaker 2: seen international relations really become transactional, right especially with this

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Speaker 2: new Trump administration, which the President was talking about this

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Speaker 2: offer potentially a minerals deal in exchange for security. How

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Speaker 2: would this go over with the Trump administration. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if you can get into some of the

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Speaker 2: recent actions we've seen in the region and whether or

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Speaker 2: not the president might be onto something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the president of Somali Land has seen

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Speaker 1: how the US are operating in Africa, in particular recently

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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where you know it's

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Speaker 1: sketched out with Congo and the M twenty three rebel

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Speaker 1: group a kind of peace deal where peace is then

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Speaker 1: given in return for business deals for US companies in

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Speaker 1: the space of minerals, et cetera. You know, that's how

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Speaker 1: they're looking at operating and they're trying similar things in

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Speaker 1: Libya and also in Sudan to less effect. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're very like entrenched conflicts. They're pretty complicated. But I

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Speaker 1: think you know, Somali then sees itself as offering a

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Speaker 1: lot potentially to the US. It's on the Red Sea.

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Speaker 1: They have pitched this idea of a military base for

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Speaker 1: the US, which I'm sure they're interested in, especially people

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Speaker 1: in the Department of Defense, and talks have been held

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Speaker 1: around that quite recently, and then just becoming a security partner.

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Speaker 1: The US are already in Djibouti, but there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of countries there. You know, the Chinese have a military

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Speaker 1: base right next to the American base. And so I

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Speaker 1: think Somaliland is quite attractive because you know, it's sort

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Speaker 1: of so to speak, you know, Virgin territory. You have

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Speaker 1: the Emiratis in Berbera, in the coastal city of Berbera,

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Speaker 1: who are also very close allies with the US, and

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Speaker 1: they have a very well established port run by deeply

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Speaker 1: world and access to the airport there for their own

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Speaker 1: military operations, So it kind of on paper, just makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense for the US, even though officially

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Speaker 1: they're still not recognizing some aarilands stated.

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Speaker 2: And so then you know, you put your story out

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Speaker 2: earlier in the week. I wonder the US, of course,

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Speaker 2: as many of us know, is quite busy until this

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Speaker 2: deadline for tariffs comes about. But what has the response

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Speaker 2: been from the US? Are you expecting potentially a change

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Speaker 2: in position on their recognition of Somaliland?

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Speaker 1: So efficiently, the State Department is not recognizing Samari lands.

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Speaker 1: They still stick by the sovereignty of Somalia and the

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Speaker 1: once Malia policy. However, they do admit that there has

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Speaker 1: been a lot of engagement through the embassy in Mogadishu

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Speaker 1: in Somalia with the authorities in Somaliland in the capital, Hargeisa.

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Speaker 1: I think the ambassador there has visited four times in

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Speaker 1: the first six months of the president's tenure, and there's

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Speaker 1: also been visits from the Department of Defense late last

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Speaker 1: year again discussing a security package. So within I guess

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Speaker 1: the administration there's a lot of interest. It's just whether

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Speaker 1: or not that gets onto President Trump's desk, and I

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Speaker 1: think the President also is hoping to visit Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And get sat down himself in front of the President.

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Speaker 1: That's his ultimate game because he knows in the end

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Speaker 1: that's where deals are made.

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Speaker 2: Which brings me to Somalia finally, not something I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: they they'll want to see. Have we heard anything from.

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Speaker 1: Them, Well, we did speak to their foreign minister who

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Speaker 1: just stuck to the well rehearsed line that Somalia has

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Speaker 1: a one Somalia policy and all of its regions, whether

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Speaker 1: they're running in a self autonomous way or not, a

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Speaker 1: part of Somalia. Quite simply, both Somaliland and Somalia have

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Speaker 1: said they'd be willing to defend their nations should anyone

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Speaker 1: declare independence or should Somalia try to take over Somali land.

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Speaker 1: Let's say so there is the potential for violence in

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Speaker 1: the end, so that's also a slight deterrent for big

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Speaker 1: business coming in.

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Speaker 2: And you can read Simon's exclusive reporting on Bloomberg platforms.

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Speaker 2: Now here's a few other stories from the region we've

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Speaker 2: been following this week. Ghana Central Bank lowered its key

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Speaker 2: interest rate by the most on record after the pace

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Speaker 2: of inflation significantly slowed in the West African nation and

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Speaker 2: signal it would continue to ease if the dis inflation

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Speaker 2: trend continues. And former Credit Swiss chief executive officer to

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Speaker 2: John Tiam's options to run for president of Ivory Coast

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Speaker 2: this year appear to have been exhausted after United Nations

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Speaker 2: Agency declined to push for his vote to be reinstated.

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Speaker 2: It clears the way for eighty three year old President

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Speaker 2: Alissan Watara to extend his rule of the world's biggest

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Speaker 2: coco producer. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg,

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Speaker 2: including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put a link to

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. This program was produced by

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Speaker 2: Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget to follow and

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Speaker 2: review this show wherever you usually get your podcasts. But

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Speaker 2: for now I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks as always for listening.