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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three point fifty of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. In the past

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Speaker 1: few years, you may have heard about companies rolling back

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Speaker 1: their promise DEI initiatives, or promoting black women to leadership

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Speaker 1: positions during public controversy without offering them the proper support.

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Speaker 1: If you're a black woman in corporate who has been

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Speaker 1: disturbed by these trends, you're not alone. Joining me today

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Speaker 1: to help break down these patterns, as well as offer

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Speaker 1: some tips for black women navigating the corporate Ladder is

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Speaker 1: leadership advisor and keynote speaker. Doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby

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Speaker 1: is the founder of the Ringgold, a firm that has

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Speaker 1: helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world,

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Speaker 1: including the ACOUU and Harvard Radcliffe Institute, achieved their mission

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Speaker 1: critical organizational ambitions. Doctor Mumby weaves in her framework the

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Speaker 1: easeful Leader for high performing leaders who are looking to

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Speaker 1: reclaim their time, lead with ease and thrive in any environment.

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Speaker 1: During our conversation, we break down some things to consider

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Speaker 1: before accepting a promotion at work, how to advocate for

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Speaker 1: yourself when your work begins to outpace your pay level

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Speaker 1: or title, and some strategies for navigating microaggressions in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tpg

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Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the Sister Circle

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Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Mumby.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this

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Speaker 2: conversation than to be in connection with you.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, So you are a sustainable leadership advisor. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us what that means and what your typical

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Speaker 1: workday looks like.

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Speaker 2: Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most

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Speaker 2: of them identify as women, Black women, from burning out.

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Speaker 2: I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines,

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Speaker 2: even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person,

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Speaker 2: so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity

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Speaker 2: so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life.

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Speaker 2: A lot of my professional career has been around balancing

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Speaker 2: a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that

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Speaker 2: led itself to me also focusing on my personal life

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Speaker 2: and how I can also work to have equilibrium or

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Speaker 2: at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm

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Speaker 2: not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out

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Speaker 2: in the other. And that's become even more important now

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Speaker 2: that I have a little baby who's now ten months.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one

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Speaker 1: that kick you into we having to reimagine some things.

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Speaker 2: I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear.

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Speaker 1: So much of your work is really focused on creating

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Speaker 1: easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: To be an easeful leader.

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Speaker 2: It's a leader who is operating from the core of

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Speaker 2: their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who

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Speaker 2: takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how

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Speaker 2: is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their productivity,

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Speaker 2: and the culture that we have on staff. A lot

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Speaker 2: of folks been, a lot of organizations get caught up

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Speaker 2: in production, production, production, and that's because sometimes we have

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Speaker 2: external validators who are putting a lot of pressure on

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Speaker 2: us to perform, to be visible. And it's our role

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Speaker 2: as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to support

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Speaker 2: the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just the technical,

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Speaker 2: to say, hey, I understand what my team is going through.

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Speaker 2: This is going on in the context of the world.

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Speaker 2: If you aren't considering that or push for us to

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Speaker 2: be more whatever, productive, more visible, more everything with less

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Speaker 2: resources happens a lot at the time. If we continue

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Speaker 2: down this path at this pace, this is what the

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Speaker 2: impact will be, not just on our team morale and

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Speaker 2: our team structure, but also for the quality of our work.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like you have worked across a variety

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Speaker 1: of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the

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Speaker 1: common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff retreat on

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Speaker 2: the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally, and

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Speaker 2: what I'm noticing in working with them, We're all dealing

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Speaker 2: with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity to

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Speaker 2: take on all these transformative goals and this expansive vision

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Speaker 2: that we have for our work right now? And does

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Speaker 2: it have to be right now because right now we're

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Speaker 2: considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner than

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Speaker 2: many of us on the team you already feel. So

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Speaker 2: that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my

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Speaker 2: portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject

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Speaker 2: of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.

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Speaker 1: So is it that people are kind of seeing so

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Speaker 1: much need that they are trying to like take on

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Speaker 1: additional task and like have the organization perform? Is that

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Speaker 1: a part of it.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes and sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the

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Speaker 2: organization where they feel like they have to perform at

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Speaker 2: this pace to visibly look like they're being productive. And

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Speaker 2: that's a difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level,

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Speaker 2: noticing what has been their contribution to this reality, noticing

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Speaker 2: the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports,

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Speaker 2: and then having the conversation with the board and or

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Speaker 2: funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas

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Speaker 2: And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes

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Speaker 2: reflects the micro. So what's going on in vial with

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Speaker 2: each leader where they feel like they have to contribute

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Speaker 2: to this pace? And that's where my individual coaching really

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Speaker 2: kicks in and where we see some changes because leadership

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Speaker 2: is an extension of who you are and yourself in

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Speaker 2: the way it's landing on others. And if we don't

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Speaker 2: really on earth what's going on there through your leadership actions,

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Speaker 2: you just going to be having a lot of people

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Speaker 2: being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing

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Speaker 2: your own practices of self compassion and support.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, doctor Mombi, how do companies understand whether

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Speaker 1: they're following their values or whether they're trying to like

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Speaker 1: hitch to some arbitrary kind of sense of value.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping,

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Speaker 2: they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, it shows

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Speaker 2: up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in

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Speaker 2: not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor.

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Speaker 2: It shows up when something has happened in the organization

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Speaker 2: and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone

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Speaker 2: to come in and support them. And that's how I

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Speaker 2: typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth.

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Speaker 2: They're like, yes, me and her team can come in

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Speaker 2: here and help us objectively figure out the best path

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Speaker 2: forward and also to support people through this transition and

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Speaker 2: change management. I got to say a lot of that

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Speaker 2: effort and work comes from my comfort being in the

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Speaker 2: middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking

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Speaker 2: for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts.

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Speaker 2: And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself

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Speaker 2: of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and

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Speaker 2: it also helps that I was a teacher and a

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Speaker 2: community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm

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Speaker 2: used to finding solutions.

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Speaker 1: You got a lot of experience in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways to do this work. It sounds.

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Speaker 2: We all do.

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Speaker 1: We all do So you mentioned that a majority of

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Speaker 1: the clients that you work with are often black women,

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Speaker 1: and we know that black women are often expected to

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Speaker 1: have these really high expectations, but also the pay and

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Speaker 1: the promotion rates don't necessarily kind of match up with that.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell me a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: kinds of questions black women should be asking themselves and

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Speaker 1: their supervisors if they feel like their level of work

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Speaker 1: isn't necessarily matching either their pay grade or their.

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Speaker 2: Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support

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Speaker 2: them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that.

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Speaker 2: We can talk about that. So some of the questions,

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Speaker 2: it depends on where you are in the process. So

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Speaker 2: if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal

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Speaker 2: candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're

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Speaker 2: in the thick of the role and you're seeing that

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Speaker 2: your work is outpacing what was initially written down about

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Speaker 2: what the role would be, these questions can be helpful.

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Speaker 2: And if you are considering whether or not you want

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Speaker 2: to stay in the role given that your work has

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Speaker 2: outgrown what initially was supposed to be be within the

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Speaker 2: scope of work, these questions could be helpful. One I

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Speaker 2: would have the conversation with the decision maker, because having

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Speaker 2: the conversation with folks who don't have decision making power

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Speaker 2: can distract from the purpose of why you need to

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Speaker 2: have such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I

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Speaker 2: first narrow in is this the decision maker? And if

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Speaker 2: this person isn't, then I need to find out who

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Speaker 2: is so I don't waste my time. One of the

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Speaker 2: questions I have folks consider is what's the scope of

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Speaker 2: work initially laid out for this role or what has

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Speaker 2: been the scope of work? What are you doing now

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Speaker 2: within the scope of work? How have you exceeded the

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Speaker 2: limits of what the scope of work were supposed to protect?

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Speaker 2: And then what is the difference between the two, And

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Speaker 2: how has that impacted not just your workload, but the

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Speaker 2: time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality.

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Speaker 2: Most often you've been able to keep up high quality

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Speaker 2: work even being limited and stretched, And how has it

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Speaker 2: impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're

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Speaker 2: taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't

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Speaker 2: have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality,

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Speaker 2: then chances are you might be taking on some of

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Speaker 2: their work that they should have been doing or could

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Speaker 2: be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown

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Speaker 2: within their scope before instead of yours. So those are

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Speaker 2: the first foundational because we've got to get really clear

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Speaker 2: with the evidence. What do we see? And then I

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Speaker 2: want to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues.

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Speaker 2: How are you being treated? Are people asking you? Pinging you?

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Speaker 2: Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft teams? Are

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Speaker 2: they pinging you fifty eleven times? Hey? Have you done this? Hey?

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Speaker 2: How's this going? Hey? Can you give me an update

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Speaker 2: on this? Chances are folks have already internalized that you

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Speaker 2: are at this leadership role taking on more of this work,

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Speaker 2: and are treating you such and have the expectations of you.

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Speaker 2: But yet that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated

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Speaker 2: formally into your scope over for your job description, and

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Speaker 2: it hasn't translated formally into the resources money you need

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Speaker 2: to bring on the team or to support the team

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Speaker 2: that you're supposed to have or do have to do more.

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Speaker 2: And so that's the beginning, just the beginning, that's the analysis.

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Speaker 2: Second part the process we go through Okay, what's the strategy.

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Speaker 2: Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person?

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Speaker 2: What do they care about most that would get them

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Speaker 2: to understand what you're going through? How do we built

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Speaker 2: empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we go into

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Speaker 2: actually role playing and mapping it out. What are we doing?

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Speaker 2: And then fourth we go back to evaluation. What has happened?

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Speaker 2: What are the results? That's kind of valuation. So this

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Speaker 2: all occurs within an engagement of coaching around your leadership development,

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Speaker 2: because so often we're out here on our own trying

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Speaker 2: to figure it out and also implementing in a way

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Speaker 2: that can feel isolating, even though other folks have gone

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Speaker 2: through what you were going through are going through it

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Speaker 2: alongside you, and that's sense of community helps embolden you

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Speaker 2: to stand up for yourself.

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Speaker 1: So would somebody kind of reach out for your support

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Speaker 1: if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it

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Speaker 1: sounds like you work with people who are mid level

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Speaker 1: or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying

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Speaker 1: our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization

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Speaker 1: and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to

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Speaker 1: move to that next level, they could reach out to

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Speaker 1: you for some support around how to make that ask.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work

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Speaker 2: with now, I've been with them since their promotion because

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Speaker 2: they have grown in their awareness of what they have

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Speaker 2: capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside

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Speaker 2: of what people expected them to do. And they have

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Speaker 2: wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their

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Speaker 2: work and that could connect to a different pay grade,

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Speaker 2: a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry

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Speaker 2: based approach that I have with folks, I never present

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Speaker 2: answers for people. I ask a lot of questionquestions and

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Speaker 2: I listen and I understand more about what people care about,

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Speaker 2: and I ask questions around their values and their alignment

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Speaker 2: of what they're doing their day to day People come

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Speaker 2: to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity,

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Speaker 2: that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're

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Speaker 2: in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I

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Speaker 2: build this within my team?

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Speaker 1: So there's been lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online,

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Speaker 1: around black women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that

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Speaker 1: being read as antisocial. So can you say a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like what suggestions you have for people who

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Speaker 1: might be enjoying the conversation around like how to kind

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Speaker 1: of do this dance that is sometimes required in co

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Speaker 1: working spaces if you are not particularly fans of your coworkers.

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Speaker 2: We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment.

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Speaker 2: As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of

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Speaker 2: times we can be seen as the person who has

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Speaker 2: to show up and be everything for everybody, and that

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Speaker 2: often takes out our abiliity to be human, our humanity,

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Speaker 2: and in looking at us devoid of such humanity, it's

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Speaker 2: why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the

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Speaker 2: way that I expect of you absence of me considering

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Speaker 2: your personhood. That's the culture within your organization. And then

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Speaker 2: if people are acting in that way and forwarding on

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Speaker 2: that dehumanization, if you will, then you got to wonder, okay,

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Speaker 2: is this the place for me? And if you are

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Speaker 2: going to stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and

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Speaker 2: you're in a financial position where you can stay. I

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Speaker 2: would take it down to the most fundamental level of communication,

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Speaker 2: and that is strictly technical, like I would not go

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Speaker 2: into any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate

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Speaker 2: that from you, and so we can get over extended

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Speaker 2: emotionally for trying really really hard to in some instances

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Speaker 2: appease folks appeal to their of empathy and they might

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Speaker 2: not have it for us. So the more we do that,

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Speaker 2: the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can

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Speaker 2: also lead to further further burnout. So if you must stay,

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Speaker 2: then I would keep the conversation to a technical foundational

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Speaker 2: level that is central to your subject matter expertise in

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Speaker 2: your role.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break so you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: dictum would be that some people do the calculation and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's just not possible for you to leave a

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Speaker 1: work please, even if you feel like your spirit is

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Speaker 1: not being felled, and you know, you feel like in

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Speaker 1: tostile maybe even in some ways. So if someone is

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Speaker 1: forced to kind of stay in a situation because bills

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Speaker 1: have to be paid, what kinds of things would you

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Speaker 1: suggest for them to continue to take care of themselves

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Speaker 1: even in that kind of environment.

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Speaker 2: First, that's doing it. Else of where are the spaces

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Speaker 2: in the organization where you feel you could be somewhat

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Speaker 2: who you are without being penalized for who you are

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Speaker 2: and where are the spaces where you just know there

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Speaker 2: is little to no psychological safety. It would be a

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Speaker 2: detriment for you to show up as you are because

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Speaker 2: people would take advantage of it. So we need to

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Speaker 2: understand the terrain that we're working with and then in

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Speaker 2: those spaces, who are the people and do the same

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Speaker 2: analysis and then take that and understand who you can

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Speaker 2: and frankly cannot be in a room with alone and

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Speaker 2: document document, document, So that's what you could do. Technically,

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Speaker 2: you keep your scope of work very closely aligned to

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Speaker 2: what you have been assigned to do, and you readily

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Speaker 2: seek the decision maker within your team to pinpoint where

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Speaker 2: in your scope of work you are operating outside of

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Speaker 2: it because the work has been assigned to you, or

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Speaker 2: you have literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more,

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Speaker 2: and you can do it so that you all can

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Speaker 2: have a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled.

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Speaker 2: And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled,

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Speaker 2: you can keep doing that extra work. But then we

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Speaker 2: got to make some adjustments on the pay of the promotion,

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Speaker 2: or you can choose, Hey, that's not the work we

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Speaker 2: need to be doing, and they might say that's not

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Speaker 2: the work they need you to be doing anymore. Then

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Speaker 2: then they take some things off of your plate. Because

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Speaker 2: if you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're

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Speaker 2: doing and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly

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Speaker 2: have looked at your reality and you cannot make a

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Speaker 2: transition at this moment, then we need to decrease the

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Speaker 2: amount of stress and the input from many people into

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Speaker 2: your work so that you can literally make it day

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Speaker 2: to day. It can be emotionally taxing, it can be

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Speaker 2: very exhausting, and it can be done with those picular instances.

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Speaker 2: I move very strategically and tactfully because I know it

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Speaker 2: is a delicate situation for that leader.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder, doctor may, if you can set us

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Speaker 1: straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know,

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Speaker 1: reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So

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Speaker 1: can you say a little bit about if HR is

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Speaker 1: a resource for us to go to and if not,

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Speaker 1: what are the spaces that we can kind of lean

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Speaker 1: on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace.

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Speaker 2: On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive, but like

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Speaker 2: you said, we have been hearing and folks have been

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Speaker 2: coming on around like their interest isn't in us. It's

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Speaker 2: in the protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so what else can you do? So a lot of

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Speaker 2: the folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches,

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Speaker 2: it's through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: It gives you a built in team to protect yourself

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Speaker 2: when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode

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Speaker 2: in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you.

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Speaker 2: And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a

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Speaker 2: situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there

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Speaker 2: for you, then long term that can't stay as the

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Speaker 2: reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces.

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Speaker 2: We just have to find the bridge to them. And

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Speaker 2: in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself

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Speaker 2: along the way, in addition to you know, attorneys, because

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Speaker 2: that far I know some people has gotten that far.

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Speaker 1: So some of the other terms that often come up

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is

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Speaker 1: confirmation bias and the glass Cliff, and I know you

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about this in your work. Can you

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Speaker 1: define those terms for us?

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Speaker 2: Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader,

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or

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Speaker 2: analyze whether or not this decision is the best for

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Speaker 2: our team and for the role and for the work.

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Speaker 2: And so instead of looking at the full span of

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Speaker 2: all the evidence and the train of the reality of

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Speaker 2: what's going on across the sector, across the role, this

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Speaker 2: leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up

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Speaker 2: with where they want to go anyway and their decision making.

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Speaker 2: Confirmation bias biasing their confirmation glass Cliff, Oh, we need

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Speaker 2: to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll just

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Speaker 2: start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh,

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Speaker 2: our leadership does not reflect the values that we say

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Speaker 2: that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population

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Speaker 2: of folks we're working with, or our work is directly

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Speaker 2: impacted by and we need to change that. And so

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Speaker 2: sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also

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Speaker 2: sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis

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Speaker 2: or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central

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Speaker 2: to the survival of the organization, and sometimes organizations go, ah,

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Speaker 2: let's put the two together and let's have in some

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Speaker 2: cases the black woman be the leader and lead us

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Speaker 2: through this difficult, turbulent time. And to make sure she

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Speaker 2: has what she needs to do it, let's promote her

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Speaker 2: and Vola will figure it out together. And so it's

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Speaker 2: kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended

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Speaker 2: in leadership, but yet you're literally on the cliff of

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Speaker 2: success and or failure. And while you're up there, it's

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Speaker 2: glass because everybody's watching you. And so this reality of wow,

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Speaker 2: I've worked so hard to reach this point in my

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Speaker 2: career to have this level of trust across the organization,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm questioning whether or not I'm set up

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Speaker 2: for success and whether or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing,

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Speaker 2: ready for me to either be successful or fail walking

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Speaker 2: on a class cliff. So is this.

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Speaker 1: Typically a conscious decision by leadership. Is it typically like, oh,

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Speaker 1: let's find like a black woman to take the fall

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Speaker 1: for this, or is it that it ends up being

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Speaker 1: that way because black women are kind of thought to

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Speaker 1: be the ones who can save everything for everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't

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Speaker 2: tell you that. I know in certain conversations, in certain

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Speaker 2: moments of crisis, some leaders realize if we don't have

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Speaker 2: a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative,

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Speaker 2: it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes people will then look towards a group of people

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Speaker 2: and see if there is someone within who is willing

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Speaker 2: and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean

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Speaker 2: that person isn't qualified for it. They probably been qualified

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Speaker 2: and you just gave him a shot because as you're struggling.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about if we find ourselves at the

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Speaker 1: pinnacle of making this decision right, because I think for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, this is the life changing opportunity,

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Speaker 1: right like this title, there's probably lots of money, not

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Speaker 1: probably a lot of resources, which you've already talked about, right,

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Speaker 1: So you're being set up for failure, but it is

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Speaker 1: I think, probably like a once in a lifetime kind

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Speaker 1: of shot. And so what kinds of things should somebody

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Speaker 1: even ask themselves, like if they recognize this is probably

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Speaker 1: not gonna end up well for me, but do I

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Speaker 1: not take the shot. What kinds of conversation should we

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Speaker 1: be having with ourselves?

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Speaker 2: Well, it actually might end up going well for you.

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Speaker 2: It might. It just means you also might not be

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Speaker 2: set up initially to be successful. And that's where the

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Speaker 2: conversations around what you need to be successful need to

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Speaker 2: be had. And do not feel bad about it, because

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it is your name,

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Speaker 2: not theirs, on this work. So whatever you need, it's

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Speaker 2: a conversation. Just like they need you. You come on,

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Speaker 2: you need some things.

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Speaker 1: Too, So what kinds of things might you need to

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Speaker 1: be successful in this kindilyst situation.

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Speaker 2: Who's the staff that's supporting me on this that's huge?

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Speaker 2: Who is the staff? And do we need to hire externally?

436
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They could be consultants,

437
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 2: they could be contract colleagues. Coming in, what's the budget

438
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: and is the budget set? Because as I get in

439
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: here and I find out what we need more of,

440
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: we need to have more conversations about upping the budget.

441
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: That's got to be on the table. That fluidity and

442
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 2: that trust for them to have in you in honoring

443
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: your expertise when you say we need more funds to

444
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: do this this and this, and of course you're gonna

445
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about what you share

446
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: and the price points for each initiative and what it

447
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 2: would take in the team. But that needs to be

448
00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: there money and the staff, the team, and thendly, the

449
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: trust to listen to what you have said and to

450
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: not actively or indirectly, rather not try to dismiss it,

451
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: not try to undermine it. You have me in this

452
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: role for reason. Trust what I got to say. Listen

453
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: to what I have to say. You know, if those

454
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 2: three things are there from the jump, then go for it.

455
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: If they aren't, but yeah, you still want to do

456
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: it because one, like you said, it could be a

457
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: life changing opportunity decision, and two it can open up

458
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: other avenues for you to be in collaboration with other organizations,

459
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: other sectors. So for the visibility, cool, but make sure you,

460
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: like I said, are documenting, documenting, documenting, because no matter

461
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: what happens on the other end, you will have the

462
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: story and the narrative and the truth of what it

463
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: took to get to that point, what happened in the

464
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 2: middle of him, and how you were a leader through it.

465
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: Because whatever the organization does. You're one person. That's what

466
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: the organization does. But you, as a leader were essential

467
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: in these parts of the work, and you led them

468
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: to the best of your abilities and to the extent

469
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: of your expertise. And so you make sure you are

470
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: very clear on that narrative that you will have to

471
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: share no matter what at the end, whether the initiative

472
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: went the way you needed it to go and wanted

473
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: it to go and the way you let it, or

474
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had, all

475
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: the work you did and chose to do something differently.

476
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: That's on them, But you know what you did.

477
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you know, doctor Mumby,

478
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there are any pretty public examples of

479
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: black women who could have been walking off the glass

480
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: cliff but then it actually turned around to be a

481
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: success for them. Are you aware of any stories of

482
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: people we could look to for examples.

483
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: Of this, Yes, I do. To be a black woman

484
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: in the workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized,

485
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 2: and that in itself is like living, walking, working at

486
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: the edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples

487
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 2: all around us, And what I will share is that,

488
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: in particular, I've been watching her leadership for a while

489
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 2: and I thought of her as you mentioned this question.

490
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: So I looked to Sheila Johnson. So she was the

491
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: co founder of BT Opened Up Salamander had just released

492
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: a memoir about her life, her leadership in the midst

493
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: of so much that many of us can relate to.

494
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: And she's definitely at least one person who has not

495
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: just walked on a glass cliff, but just shattered so

496
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: many ceilings and so many barriers and has lived to

497
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: tell I would lift her up right now.

498
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: Heard memoir is definitely on my two b red list

499
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: because lots of people have had great things to say

500
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: about it. Is that pay you're sharing that example. So

501
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier,

502
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: but I want us to back up a little bit

503
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something

504
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression.

505
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: What suggestions would you have for people who are wondering, like, oh,

506
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: is that behavior from the coworker, Like is this something

507
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would

508
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: you have there.

509
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that or wasn't that?

510
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern,

511
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: Look for who else they are speaking to and how

512
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of

513
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up

514
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: with you, you might have something here, and you keep

515
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I

516
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: work with look to this really good framework that orders

517
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: thoughts that you have in conversations that can feel emotionally charged,

518
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: and it's out of the management center Situation behavior SBI.

519
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: So you ground the conversation in the situation when this

520
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: occurred behavior, this is what I noticed. You did impact.

521
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: This is the impact it has had on me on

522
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is

523
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: the foundation they'll get you going. So notice the pattern

524
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: and then when you have the pattern, document have the

525
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation

526
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: behavior impact. That is a good start.

527
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you.

528
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation

529
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: that you know a large part of your work and

530
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: kind of stems from your own personal experience around like

531
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: over indexing in work versus being available to your family.

532
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for

533
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: how to leave work at work so that there is

534
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: more of a balance in your life.

535
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: I like that you said so there is more of

536
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: a balance, not so that there is balance, because I

537
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: mean that's a practice and I don't know. I'm really

538
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you joy and

539
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: make you feel a sense of being. Yeah, I look

540
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: at time, look at how you're spending your time. So

541
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's called

542
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop around

543
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: time and values that I distilled a portion of it

544
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: into a document. It's on my website. You're free to

545
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: get it. Look at your time, where are you spending it,

546
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: and be honest with yourself, no judgment. It's just you

547
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 2: looking at you. Where's your time, how you're feeling when

548
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: you're doing it, and the things that you're doing during

549
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: that time, and how you're feeling. You have to and

550
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: it's the start time reclamation, reclaim your time.

551
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok.

552
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: So I want to see if you want to play

553
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: a little game with me. I don't know if you

554
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: are you on TikTok at all or pay attention to TikTok.

555
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially.

556
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: We're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go

557
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people

558
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: are like, how do I say this thing? But in

559
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: a way that's not gonna get me? Fine, I'm I

560
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: all right. So the first one is, how do you say?

561
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: That's not my job? So you talked earlier about like

562
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: your scope of work.

563
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really

564
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team

565
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: and figure out if we have the capacity to do

566
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: that and if it's within our scope at this point,

567
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: because it might not be. And if it isn't, then

568
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might

569
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: have the capacity to do this.

570
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is

571
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: I said that already or I just said that.

572
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree.

573
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: I plus one. In our earlier conversations I connected to

574
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy

575
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: to see that you also are in agreement with it.

576
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: Let's do da da da da da da da.

577
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped

578
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: with work.

579
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter,

580
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: but let me go back and see if we can

581
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: add this to our scope of work for quarter two

582
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan

583
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: to make sure that what you're suggesting works within our

584
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: team's capacity.

585
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: Oh. I love that. I also love how like the

586
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: voice is like so much softer right because we're like, oh,

587
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: let me try to massage this the.

588
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: Way I am. I'm giving myself away now. The softer,

589
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: the softer my voice is, the more furious I am.

590
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, doctor mummy, tell us where can we stay

591
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: connected with you? It sounds like you already have at

592
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: least one great resource on your website, So tell us

593
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: what else can we find at your website? What is

594
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: the website in any social media channels you want to

595
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: share with us?

596
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, definitely. So. My website is my name, It's

597
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: www dot yasmine mumby dot com. Y A s M

598
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: E n E m U m b y dot com.

599
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint, I have meditations.

600
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: I write monthly ish. I say ish because I'm a

601
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days.

602
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: A monthly ish newsletter that has all of the reflections

603
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 2: and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over

604
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 2: the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching.

605
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 2: So nothing I put out there is in the abstract.

606
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: It's all rooted in the practical, what's current, and also

607
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: research centered. So sign it for my newsletter for my

608
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on

609
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now.

610
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore yas M E

611
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: n E Underscore, the tictac and the threads and the Facebook.

612
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: I'm on LinkedIn's it's my name, but listen, it's Instagram

613
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: on the website because I just had a ten month

614
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: old and that's all I can do right now. Let's see,

615
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: I'm talking about my capacity.

616
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples

617
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: of that. Well, thank you so much for all that

618
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: you shared today. Will be sure to include all of

619
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: that in the show notes so people can stay connected

620
00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: with you.

621
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: I had a great time in this conversation with you.

622
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.

623
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Mumby was able to join us

624
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and her work,

625
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

626
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: slash Session three point fifty and don't forget to text

627
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and tell them to

628
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist

629
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy

630
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want

631
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

632
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

633
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the

634
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us

635
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode

636
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor.

637
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

638
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

639
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take you

640
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: care

641
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: What what what