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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. In two, Langley was arrested for

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Speaker 1: the murder of six year old Jeremy Guillory of Ioway.

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Speaker 1: A three day search for the missing boy ended when

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Speaker 1: the child's body was found in Langley's closet. The little

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Speaker 1: boy had been strangled and molested, but I stuffed an old,

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Speaker 1: dirty stock in his mouth and I held his nose

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Speaker 1: to make sure he couldn't get no air to ending.

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Speaker 1: We will go to the end of the earth to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the person who committed that event, she's justice.

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Speaker 1: I think the ultimate judgment would be given to him

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Speaker 1: another time, another place. A six year old little boy

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Speaker 1: is dead. Jeremy juxtaposed that against an incredible book called

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Speaker 1: The Fact of a Body, A murder and a memoir

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Speaker 1: by Alexandria Marzano Lestovich. How do the two intersect? How

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Speaker 1: do the two collide? I mean, see Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on

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Speaker 1: Sirius X. With me the author of the Fact of

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Speaker 1: a Body, Alexandria Marzano Lesnovich. Also with me high profile

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Speaker 1: psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael, Hi Dr Chloe and Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, and

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Speaker 1: of course Alan the Duke Deep joining me out of

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Speaker 1: l A. I want to start things by explaining a

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Speaker 1: little bit, just a tiny bit about the fact of

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Speaker 1: a body, a murder, and a memoir. Now remember the

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Speaker 1: backdrop is the murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy.

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Speaker 1: Now before, Alexandria begins a summer job at a law

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Speaker 1: firm in Louisiana working for the defense defending for the

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Speaker 1: retrial of a death row inmate, convicted murder her and

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Speaker 1: child molester, Ricky Langley. She thinks her position is very,

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Speaker 1: very plain. She is the daughter of two lawyers, and

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Speaker 1: she is very firm about the death penalty anti death penalty.

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Speaker 1: But the moment Ricky's face appears on a screen as

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Speaker 1: she is reviewing old tapes, the moment she hears him

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Speaker 1: actually talking about his crimes, She's overcome with a feeling

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Speaker 1: of wanting Ricky Langley to die, which is against everything

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Speaker 1: she has ever believed. I want you to first hear

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Speaker 1: a confession tape by the convicted child molester and killer

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Speaker 1: Ricky Langley. I wrapped that string, knowled string around his

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Speaker 1: neck and proved as hard as I could on it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you know that still wasn't stopping him trying

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Speaker 1: to breathe. He was still trying to breathe. But A

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Speaker 1: stuffed an old, dirty stock in his mouth, and I

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Speaker 1: held his nose. Why did you do that to make

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Speaker 1: sure he couldn't get in nowair? Okay, to end it too,

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Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano wasn't Avitch the author of the Fact of

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Speaker 1: a Body, a Murder and a Memoir. Alexandria, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Tell me how you came to

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Speaker 1: write the book. Thank you for having me. Um. I

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Speaker 1: really wrote the book because I was so haunted by

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Speaker 1: the case. And it's the act of writing the book

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Speaker 1: was really an act of trying to figure out why

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Speaker 1: it was haunting me, so why it seemed to be

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Speaker 1: getting so tangled up with my memories of my own past.

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Speaker 1: So I had watched the video tape, as you said,

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Speaker 1: while I was an intern at this law firm. I

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Speaker 1: didn't work directly on his case, Um, but they showed

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Speaker 1: us this confession tape, and up to that moment, my

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Speaker 1: feelings were so clear. Right after I watched the tape,

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Speaker 1: I learned that Jeremy Gillory's mother, Laura, like Gillary, had

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Speaker 1: taken the stand at the trial. There were three trials,

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Speaker 1: and so she had taken the stand at the second trial,

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Speaker 1: and she had actually pleaded to keep Ricky Langley alive.

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Speaker 1: She testified for him, and UM, and that moment, I

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Speaker 1: was so struck that she had been able to do this,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't that even though despite what I believe,

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Speaker 1: despite what I wanted to fight for. You know, I

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Speaker 1: had gone to law school wanting to fight the death penalty. Um,

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Speaker 1: how had she been able to do that? And why

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Speaker 1: couldn't I? And I think for years I was also

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Speaker 1: haunted by it because it raised this question, you know,

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Speaker 1: is who we are determined by what we believe and

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Speaker 1: what we want to fight for? Or is who we

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Speaker 1: are determined by what happened in our past? Because what

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Speaker 1: happened for me was that the Langley case really hit

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Speaker 1: hard against all these things in my own past I

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Speaker 1: couldn't think about or talk about. And so for years,

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Speaker 1: you know, the case, the details of the case, UM,

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Speaker 1: there was this be begun that Jeremy had there was

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Speaker 1: a blue blanket that Ricky Langley wrapped his body in.

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Speaker 1: These details would just come back to me really like

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Speaker 1: I was haunted by them. And years later I started

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Speaker 1: to get some of the court records from the case

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to lay the past arrest, in an

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Speaker 1: attempt to kind of put it in the ground and

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Speaker 1: stop thinking about it. Um, and it'd started really led

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Speaker 1: into this book. Wow, Alexandria Marzano Lesnevich, author of the

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Speaker 1: Fact of a Body, a Murderer, and a Memoir. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want you to stop talking to hear you recall

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Speaker 1: those moments and how your past factors in to this

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Speaker 1: particular case. Haunting you just got Morgan, I know that

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Speaker 1: you are familiar with the murder of six year old

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Gilroy. What happened. It's it's an absolutely uh brutal

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Speaker 1: case that that took place in uh in the home

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Speaker 1: of it's actually a rented room that was down the

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Speaker 1: street from where this little child lived with his mother,

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Speaker 1: keen mother. Um. They kind of migrated around in this

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Speaker 1: little tiny area of of Iowa, Louisiana, and UH didn't

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Speaker 1: have much to uh to speak of in material possessions

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Speaker 1: and um, uh this child who was at least peripherally

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Speaker 1: familiar with uh with Langley, was essentially lured in uh

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Speaker 1: to to the home and UH at that point in time. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's it's it's alluded to at least that potentially, uh

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Speaker 1: Langley had had an attraction him because he had actually

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Speaker 1: been in his child's presence when a child was being

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Speaker 1: bathed or bathing. And UM, wait a minute, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: how did that happen that a child molester is in

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Speaker 1: the presence of a six year old boy when he's

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Speaker 1: being bathed. I think that the dynamics of this family,

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Speaker 1: UH probably you know that are dictated by a lot

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Speaker 1: of the the uh, the circumstances that the mother were

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Speaker 1: in was in uh you know, left him in in

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Speaker 1: a position where Langley had actually watch cared over over

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Speaker 1: the child at least for a small period of time

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Speaker 1: just previous to the to the homicide. And Alexander speaks

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Speaker 1: to this UH in compelling terms about that this is

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Speaker 1: kind of where the seed seed was planted. Um. And

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Speaker 1: eventually what happened was that Langley um um strangled this

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Speaker 1: little boy. But but it's it's so much more than

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Speaker 1: that to Alexandria and Morozono Lesovich, author of the Fact

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Speaker 1: of a Body Murder and memoir. Isn't it true that

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Speaker 1: at one juncture we learned that Ricky Langley claims he

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Speaker 1: likes to sleep in graveyards and that he wanted to

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Speaker 1: sleep with the body of the six year old boy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is a long history of making making these kinds

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Speaker 1: of statements. Um. He has a fascination with the occult

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Speaker 1: that seems to go back to and he was a child,

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Speaker 1: and to the circumstances of his birth and to the

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Speaker 1: circumstances of his early childhood. And so he tells many

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Speaker 1: stories later about strangling Jeremy Um, in which he gives

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Speaker 1: many different reasons that he did so, and many different

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Speaker 1: feelings that he hit afterwards. I think one of the

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Speaker 1: things that drew me to this case was that the

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Speaker 1: record is full of him kind of telling himself the

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Speaker 1: story of the murder, trying to figure out why he

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Speaker 1: did it. And Yeah, that's one of one of the

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Speaker 1: stories he gives. Did he molest Jeremy before he was murdered?

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Speaker 1: That is the question, That is the question, And it's

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Speaker 1: really striking to me that in three trials they never

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Speaker 1: really solidly answered that question. Were forensics stand on the

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Speaker 1: child's body, Alexandria, Yes, they were, They were and Um

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Speaker 1: Rickie langley sperm was found on the child's T shirt.

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Speaker 1: On Jeremy's T shirt. He was wearing a little white

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Speaker 1: for the balloon T shirt and they cut the seaman

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Speaker 1: stains out of it. The location of that semen and

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Speaker 1: how it might have transferred, whether it transferred or whether

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Speaker 1: it got there through Ricky Langley doing something UM was

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Speaker 1: a source of a lot of debate at the trial. UM.

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Speaker 1: But confusingly, there was also a piece of evidence found

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Speaker 1: on him, a pubic care found on his lip that

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Speaker 1: did not match for he Langley two. Just got Morgan, Um,

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Speaker 1: I cannot explain the hair on the child's lip, but

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Speaker 1: I can't explain Ricky Langley's sperm on the child's T shirt.

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Speaker 1: I can't explain that. And I don't need just got Morgan.

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Speaker 1: I used to argue to juries. You know, I learned

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Speaker 1: early on as a child, as a little girl, it's

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Speaker 1: easier to understand something if you're hearing a story like

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Speaker 1: a parable. Get it a parable, A story that makes

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Speaker 1: a point r him every Sunday morning. Stories that teach

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Speaker 1: you a point, and this is what I would tell

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Speaker 1: a jury. The judge will instruct you of that. Circumstantial

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Speaker 1: evidence is as powerful, in my opinion, even more powerful

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Speaker 1: sometimes than direct evidence. Direct evidence is like an eyewitness

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Speaker 1: or d n A or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence is this.

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Speaker 1: When you come into your office in the morning, it's

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Speaker 1: eight a m. And the sky is bright and shiny,

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Speaker 1: not a cloud to be seen. You come out at lunchtime,

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Speaker 1: it's dark, dark, it's cloudy. There's water on the ground,

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Speaker 1: pools of water. Men are going by hugging their raincoats.

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Speaker 1: Women have umbrellas. You don't have to see the storm

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Speaker 1: to know it. Rained that circumstantial evidence. What you can

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Speaker 1: deduce figure out from what you see, what you smell,

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Speaker 1: what you hear, what you touch. That circumstantial evidence and

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Speaker 1: is powerful. Nobody needs to tell me that the child

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Speaker 1: was molested when the killer sperm is on the child's

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Speaker 1: T shirt and either crazy one of this scenario Joe Scott, no. No.

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Speaker 1: And the beauty of direct evidence, when when coupled with

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Speaker 1: with the narrative that's that's left behind, is that it

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Speaker 1: does fill in the blanks for us. The trick is,

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Speaker 1: I think based on my experience in court and the

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Speaker 1: labs is if the the prosecutor has the ability to

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Speaker 1: put these pieces together and present it in a manner

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Speaker 1: in which you know, can sway sway the jury to

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Speaker 1: their point of view. And it's three trials. Wow. Uh

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Speaker 1: And you know there's there are a lot of conclusions

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Speaker 1: that can be drawn here. But I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: Uh something you know you you don't find ejaculant on

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Speaker 1: on a T shirt? Uh that belongs to a small

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Speaker 1: child like this without something having happened. Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's the defendant sperm. It's not the child sperm. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: Before I go back into the facts, I want to

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Speaker 1: bring in a renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: It's Dr Chloe Carmichael. Dr Chloe, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. The real issue here, I mean, you heard

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Speaker 1: the confession about sticking a sock in the little boy's

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Speaker 1: mouth and pinching his nose so we couldn't breathe. His

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Speaker 1: T shirt covered in the defendant sperm. The question is

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Speaker 1: going to be was he insane at the time of

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Speaker 1: the act? Now under our law, our Anglo Saxon jurisprudence,

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Speaker 1: and I say that because we brought our common law

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Speaker 1: from Great Britain. That's where we got it, okay, And

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Speaker 1: at the time it was brought it was created, it

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Speaker 1: was under the Saxon and Anglo rule, that's where that

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Speaker 1: comes from. And under our law, the McNaughton law of

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Speaker 1: insanity is if you knew right or wrong at the

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Speaker 1: time you committed the act, not when you go to trial,

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Speaker 1: not when you're in jail and you're throwing your food

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Speaker 1: and humming to yourself at the time of the incident,

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Speaker 1: and the argument at trial Dr Chloe Carmichael was that

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Speaker 1: he knew to cover up his crime at the time

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Speaker 1: he tried to cover it up, which says too many

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Speaker 1: that he knew right from wrong. Dr Chloe Carmichael, way

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Speaker 1: in um, I would agree that this definitely sounds like

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Speaker 1: somebody who is able to tell right from wrong. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like a very damaged and warped person from

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Speaker 1: a tragic background who absolutely was struggling with mental illness.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you're absolutely right, Nancy, there's no evidence

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Speaker 1: to say that this person did not know right from wrong.

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Speaker 1: For example, he never attempted anything like this um in

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Speaker 1: front of other people, right he waited until he was alone,

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Speaker 1: He waited until he was in secret. Uh. He originally

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Speaker 1: lied to the police, from what I understand, and said,

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Speaker 1: you know that that the little boy had not been there,

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Speaker 1: And as you said, he then hid the body. Um.

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Speaker 1: So he he later recalled and discussed it with such

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Speaker 1: clarity and such willingness. Um. But I think that might

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Speaker 1: have more to do with a desire on his part

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Speaker 1: to try to seek some kind of absolution. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't think that he was unable to tell

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Speaker 1: the difference between right and wrong at the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: one thing that I really appreciated to Alexandria Marzano, Lesnovitch,

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Speaker 1: our special guests joining us author of the fact of

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Speaker 1: a body, is that the judge struggled. The judge struggled

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Speaker 1: with what to do, and he went on and on

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Speaker 1: about how could two renowned experts come to such startlingly

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Speaker 1: different conclusions about was this guy insane at the time

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Speaker 1: he murdered six year old Jeremy. Did you notice that, Alexandra,

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Speaker 1: he really discussed it a lot. Oh, absolutely, I mean

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Speaker 1: he even discussed throughout the trial. He even discussed how

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Speaker 1: much the case was driving him to drink um and

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Speaker 1: how much when he went home at night he was

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Speaker 1: haunted by what he had seen in the courtroom, the

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Speaker 1: images of Jeremy's body. Alexander was also just giving me

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Speaker 1: chills on my arms right now, because you just in

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Speaker 1: that one moment brought back all the times I would

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Speaker 1: have to actually pull off the road in my car

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Speaker 1: when I would leave the courthouse. And I'm a very

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Speaker 1: strict rule against a drinking And I'll tell you why.

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Speaker 1: It's not a moral or ethical rule. It's that I've

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Speaker 1: seen it destroy so many people destroy and when you

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Speaker 1: see cases like this as I have, sometimes it is overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, I'm not proud of anybody that

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Speaker 1: that drinks too much or drive drives drinking or but

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Speaker 1: the fact that he struggled so much shows me that

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Speaker 1: this judge cared. He cared, he cared about what happened,

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Speaker 1: He cared about doing the right thing. I really think

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Speaker 1: he did. And then, and those comments started even during

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Speaker 1: Vaudier year, during jury selection, when he was also clearly

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Speaker 1: haunted by seeing Ricky in front of him and the

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Speaker 1: fact that that you know, in his courtroom it would

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Speaker 1: be determined whether Rickie Langley lived or died. He spoke

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Speaker 1: quite movingly on the record about not fearing that decision,

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Speaker 1: fearing being haunted by it years later, fearing either way

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Speaker 1: the case came out, you know, whether Langley was found

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Speaker 1: it was convicted and sentenced to death, which he ultimately

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Speaker 1: wasn't in that trial, um, but fearing that that too

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Speaker 1: would haunt him, but also fearing what would happen if,

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Speaker 1: you know, he had to look at these pictures of

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Speaker 1: this little boy, look at this little boy's mother and

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Speaker 1: say that there would be no justice for him. So

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Speaker 1: one of the things that the judge really showed me

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Speaker 1: was the cost on the different people involved in the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system. Well hold on just a moment, and

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Speaker 1: the cost on you, Yes, Alexandria Amrazzano Lesnevich, who became

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Speaker 1: intimately familiar with this death penalty case and the molestation

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Speaker 1: and murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy.

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Speaker 1: The toll it took on you during that internship. The

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Speaker 1: toll it takes on Dr Chloe Carmichael as she struggles

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Speaker 1: with issues like this, psychologists joining me out of Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, He's a death investigator. Myself, Handlane have

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Speaker 1: handled literally thousands of felonies. The toll it takes on you,

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Speaker 1: it changes your life forever. You don't believe me, listen

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Speaker 1: to this. I wrapped that string knowledge string around his

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Speaker 1: neck and pleve it as hard as I could on it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you know that still wasn't stopping him trying

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Speaker 1: to breathe. He was still trying to breathe. But I

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Speaker 1: stuffed an old, dirty sock in his mouth and I

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Speaker 1: held his nose. Why did you do that to make

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Speaker 1: sure he couldn't get into air? Okay, to end it,

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Speaker 1: your buying power as a hedge against our devaluing dollar,

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Speaker 1: solar panels, and cell phones. Right now, silver is priced

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Speaker 1: well below its historical average. You might consider doubling down

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Speaker 1: on it in your investment portfolio. Investors know that it's

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Speaker 1: and say the keyword grace. Called pound to fifty. Keyword grace.

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Speaker 1: Remember it's simple to get started. Called pound to fifty,

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Speaker 1: keyword grace. That's pound to fifty and say Grace. I Nancy, Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, And again I want to thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us on this very important program

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Speaker 1: here on Sirius X. With me the author of the

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Speaker 1: Fact of a Body, a murder in memoir, Alexandria Marzano Lesnevich,

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Speaker 1: who was profoundly affected by the time she spent working

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Speaker 1: on a death penalty case, going into the case staunchly

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Speaker 1: against the death penalty. In fact, her aim was to

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Speaker 1: save Rickey Langley from the death unalty. Langley convicted of

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Speaker 1: murdering a six year old little boy, Jeremy Gilroy. With

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Speaker 1: me Dr Chloe Carmichael's psychologists out of Manhattan and renowned

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Speaker 1: for instance expert Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics at

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, and death investigator. You know, when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, I never thought that I would put

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Speaker 1: behind my name specialty serial murder, serial rape, serial child

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Speaker 1: lit station. I just didn't see that coming, you know.

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Speaker 1: In my world, Alexandra, when I was growing up, I

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Speaker 1: thought that I would get a car or truck and

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Speaker 1: on the back I would have one of those traveling

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Speaker 1: like RV trailers and it would be full of books, books,

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Speaker 1: just nothing but books in there, and that I would

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Speaker 1: also behind that have attached another trailer with a horse

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Speaker 1: in it. That was what I would thought I would do,

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Speaker 1: and I would write books and play with my hor

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Speaker 1: That's what I That was my plan, Okay. I did

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Speaker 1: not know that one day it would be Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Trial specialty, serial murder, serial rape, and serial child listation

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Speaker 1: in any type of arson. That was basically on my

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Speaker 1: calling card. I'm sure Joe Scott, you didn't think that

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Speaker 1: you would be death investigator, and Dr Chloe probably did

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Speaker 1: not imagine she would be helping people sort through life

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Speaker 1: changing issues. Alexandria, your childhood really played into the way

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Speaker 1: the six year old Jeremy's murder affected you. It did,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, it was everything that I didn't think

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Speaker 1: about in my childhood that was sort of forced to

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Speaker 1: the forefront by encountering this case. So when I watched

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Speaker 1: Healing Lee's confession, which you now heard a clip of,

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Speaker 1: I was sitting in that room. I remember it so clearly.

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Speaker 1: I was in this big, cavernous Lost Love Firm library,

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Speaker 1: you know, dark wood lined, the shelves, lined with the

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Speaker 1: leather bound books that hold all the old case registers.

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Speaker 1: And I was sitting on a folding chair. Um, I

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Speaker 1: was pretty nervous. I was twenty five years old. It

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Speaker 1: was only my third day in this internship, and so

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Speaker 1: you can imagine, you know, I was wearing a new suit,

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Speaker 1: kind of scratching on my skin, and I'm sitting there

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Speaker 1: and I've been waiting for this moment since I was

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Speaker 1: a child, really, since I learned about the death penalty

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Speaker 1: at eight years old. I had wanted to fight it.

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Speaker 1: And they queue up this tape and they play this

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Speaker 1: tape and Ricky Langley on the tape describes the pleasure

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Speaker 1: he took in molesting small children, and he described very vividly,

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Speaker 1: very specific actions that he did, and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden listening, I wasn't twenty five years old anymore. All

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was a child again, and I

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Speaker 1: could feel on my grandfather's hands on me, and that

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Speaker 1: was the moment that I wanted him to die. I

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Speaker 1: had never forgotten being molested, you know, it wasn't like that,

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Speaker 1: but it was something that I tried really really hard

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Speaker 1: not to think about um precisely because the memory has

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Speaker 1: lived so vividly in my body. So I think why

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Speaker 1: this case haunted me so much for for so many

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Speaker 1: years is just everything that it made me confront, that

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Speaker 1: lived inside me that I had tried so desperately not

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Speaker 1: to confront, not to think about, not to deal with.

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Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzanna Lesnevich. Hearing you talk, it's actually bringing made

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Speaker 1: to tears, because we all have, or I guess many

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Speaker 1: of us, not all of us, those moments, those horrible

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Speaker 1: moments in our lives that try their best to define us,

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Speaker 1: that we carry around every single day. I've dealt with

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Speaker 1: so many rape victims, child molestation victims, and their lives

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Speaker 1: are forever changed. Dr Chloe Carmichael. When this happens to

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Speaker 1: you as a child, you don't even have a chance

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Speaker 1: to fully develop as a person. You know, it's your

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Speaker 1: entire life is affected. I want to say defined, but

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Speaker 1: as we see in Alexander's case, she did not let

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Speaker 1: it define her. He help me. Dr Chloe. Sure, well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right, which is that, Um, we

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Speaker 1: would actually be pathologizing anybody you know who has suffered

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Speaker 1: this kind of abuse if we were to say, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: because the Keller experienced to this abuse, this was therefore

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Speaker 1: became his destiny to act out that way upon other people,

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Speaker 1: and that would actually be the most damaging and stigmatizing

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Speaker 1: thing that we could do. So UM, as a psychologist,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that this is a situation where

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Speaker 1: we have to be able to hold both truths at

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Speaker 1: the same time. Um, that that Ricky Langley was a

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Speaker 1: was a victim himself, and then he chose not to

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Speaker 1: control himself, not to you know, get the help that

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Speaker 1: he needed. Um. There's It's one thing. It's one level

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Speaker 1: in psychology to have urges to molest children. It's another

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Speaker 1: thing to act on it. Um. So from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: he had experienced those urges and had even been convicted

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Speaker 1: in the past of child molestation. So this is somebody

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Speaker 1: who actually had experience and had, you know, had attempts

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Speaker 1: from society at trying to correct him before, and he

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Speaker 1: chose to go another way, and we need to understand

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Speaker 1: that that was his choice, and therefore he needs to

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Speaker 1: be held accountable. You know, just got Morgan back to

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Speaker 1: the issue of whether he need right and wrong. I

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Speaker 1: noticed that during the trial, Langley appeared to be paying attention,

428
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: and he actually broke out smiling at many many points

429
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: during the trial, even though he had a bandage under

430
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: one of his eyes from a cut that he had

431
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: gotten from a fight with another inmate. But when the

432
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: state played the tape of Langley confessing to killing Jeremy

433
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: and testimony when the police uncovered the body, he hung

434
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: his head down and would not watch. And you know what,

435
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: that reminds me of Joe Scott. I remember when I

436
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: was called to the stand and my fiancee's murder and

437
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: I took the stand. I remember that distinctly. Everything else

438
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: melts away. I can't remember hardly a thing, but I

439
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: remember coming down off the witness stand and it was

440
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 1: high up, even with the judges, almost even with the judge,

441
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: and you would walk up one set of stairs and

442
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: there was a little landing and then you go up

443
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: to another set of stairs and to the witness stand.

444
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: You're way up, and I remember walking down, and I

445
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: remember my boots on the wood, and I walked past

446
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: the States table and I saw Keith's bloody denim shirt

447
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: that I had not seen, and I saw it lying

448
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: on the States table, and then I kept walking. I

449
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: got to the defense table. I looked at the defendant.

450
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: He met my eyes and immediately looked down. And then

451
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: I looked at the defense lawyer and he looked at

452
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: my eyes, and then he looked down, like straight into

453
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 1: his lap. They couldn't look up, and I remember just

454
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: standing there staring at them, and then walking out and

455
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: my boots making the footsteps sounds on the marble floor

456
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: until the door shut behind me. That's what I remember.

457
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: And when I hear Langley just looked down when his

458
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: confession was being played, that means a lot to me.

459
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yeah, I know it doesn't Nancy to say,

460
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something that was really gripping to

461
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: me and kind of devetails what you're saying here. And

462
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if Alexander can really, you know, um

463
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: comment on this or not, but in his in his confession.

464
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: He may have looked down in court at that moment time,

465
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: but in his confession, there was something that just really

466
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: stood out to me. And that's when he didn't say

467
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: that as he was using a ligature on this child's

468
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: nat that that he wanted to hurry or speed his death.

469
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: He said, I took an old, dirty sock, not just

470
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: to sock. I stuffed it in his mouth and then

471
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: I held his nose. And to me, that one statement

472
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: really sums this up with this fellow. This seems as

473
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: though that maybe he is fighting some kind of internal battle.

474
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, in the whole grand scheme of things,

475
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: in the light of this child who cannot speak for

476
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: himself any longer, I don't really care. But it does

477
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: talk about the person the essence of what this perpetrator

478
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: was relative to this this innocence life, and that just

479
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: it just it's haunting. I mean, it's absolutely hardy and

480
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: it just gripped me. And that's the first time I've

481
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: heard that confession. Uh, it just really gripped me. And

482
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if that impacted Alexy in the same way,

483
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: but it just it just really kind of reached out

484
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: through the microphone and and and uh, you know, grabbed

485
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: me by by the scruff of the neck. Alexandria Marizano Wesnovich,

486
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: the author of the Fact of a Body, a Murder

487
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: and a Memoir. When you heard this confession, you stated

488
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: that it immediately brought back the horrible memories of your

489
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: childhood and your grandfather's assault on you. How did you

490
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: ever reconcile that was your grandfather ever brought to justice.

491
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: Not only was he not brought to justice, but he

492
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: wasn't thought of as a criminal. What what? I'm sorry?

493
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: Not only was he not brought to justice, but he

494
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: wasn't thought of as a criminal. What do you mean

495
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: by that? Oh? I mean that you know, in my family,

496
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: we just didn't talk about the abuse. Um. It was

497
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: basically forbidden to do so. Not basically it was forbidden

498
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: to do so. Um. And even as I was in

499
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: law school, it never occurred to me that what he

500
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: had done was criminal. It wasn't until I was writing

501
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: the book and thinking constantly of this murder as the

502
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: crime in the book, which of course it is. It's

503
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: a horrible crime in the book, that I slowly realized

504
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: that actually I was writing about two crimes. I was

505
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: actually writing about two criminals, and part of why I

506
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: wanted to tell the story was to get at maybe

507
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: the different ways that we sometimes think of abuse when

508
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: it happens within a emilie. We sometimes don't recognize that

509
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: what has happened is a crime. And so when I was,

510
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, writing this, I did. I did confront my

511
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: grandfather when I was a teenager, and I don't I

512
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: you know, I looked back now at that eighteen year

513
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: old who went off to confront him, and I am

514
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: in awe of her bravery. You know, I think often

515
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: actually of that. I went to the apartment building where

516
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: he was living, and I remember so vividly the walk

517
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: down the hallway to his apartment where I was going

518
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: to finally speak the words allowed to him that no

519
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: one had ever confronted him on. I am in all

520
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: that girls bravery. And when I confronted him, you know,

521
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: he didn't deny it, and he certainly didn't apologize for it.

522
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: He was almost suppostful about it. But then he called

523
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: me the next day and asked me if I forgave him.

524
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: No apology, just asked me if I forgave him, which

525
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: in its way was an acknowledgment of all the harm

526
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: he had. I don't know. I just that makes me

527
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: so angry to hear that he asked you to forgive him,

528
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: because now the onus is on you that you have

529
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: to forgive. Yes, And oh that is so wrong that

530
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: the honest is on you to forgive him. At another thing,

531
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: Please don't be angry with me, Alexandria. Please, what were

532
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: your parents doing during all of this when you had

533
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: to go confront him? You told your parents, right, I

534
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: did tell my parents, And I think in some ways,

535
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, there are many reasons I wrote this book,

536
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: but I think in some ways I partially wrote this

537
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: book to understand my parents choices, because it's very different

538
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: when you're sort of living the memories, you see them

539
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: only from your own perspective, but when you're actually writing

540
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: about people, you have to try to imagine or try

541
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: to understand, um, what they might have been thinking. And

542
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: my grandparents, my parents rather chose not to confront him. Um.

543
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: They chose actually to keep the whole thing a secret.

544
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: They did make sure that he wasn't alone with us

545
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: again in a situation where he could molest us. Um.

546
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: But you know, they kept him coming to the house,

547
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: which was very very hard for me when I was

548
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: growing up, and very hard for me when I was

549
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: a teenager, very hard for me afterwards too, um. And

550
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: so part of writing this was to try to understand

551
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: the way that the choices that they made, on the

552
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: one hand, I really think kept our family together, you know,

553
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, caused these deep fissures and

554
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: these deep, deep hurts. And you know, I've heard from

555
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: so many people since this book came out. I'll tell you,

556
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: for the first four months after this book came out,

557
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: I got between one and three emails a day from

558
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: people who had been abused and whose families kept it

559
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: a secret, and who were talking about the things that

560
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: the book had opened up inside of them. And one

561
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: of them is sort of trying to understand this stigma

562
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: and this secrecy and this silence that often attaches to abuse,

563
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: and specifically the stigma attaches to the abuse victims, and

564
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: people don't want to talk about it, um, And I

565
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: think that's part of what allows it to continue. Can

566
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: I ask you something, Alexandria Marizano Lesnevitch, she was channeled

567
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: all of that that you're hearing right now into this

568
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: incredible work, the fact of a body a murder in

569
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: a memoir in later life, as you were writing this book,

570
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: did you ask your parents why they did not confront anymore?

571
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: Did they and you didn't know about it? What do

572
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: they say? They said, actually that they couldn't And I

573
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: knew this that they couldn't, and it's in the book.

574
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: They consulted a psychologist at the time. We told him

575
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: that the best thing to do would be to model

576
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: not being affected by it. And I think that that

577
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: was the advice that was given in a certain time period,

578
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: you know. Um, and part of my what wait, the

579
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: advice was to do what to model it not having

580
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: an impact, so not to make a big deal out

581
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: of it, not to you know, not to sort of

582
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: confront him, not to you know, to just model that

583
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: maybe it didn't matter. And I think that that was

584
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: maybe the advice given in a certain time period. Um, Okay,

585
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: that make actually makes me feel a tiny modicum better

586
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: that they tried to do something. Absolutely they tried to

587
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: do it, just discounted. They went they saw out a

588
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: professional and said, what do we do? What's the best

589
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: thing for Alexandria? And that's what they were told. So

590
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: that's what they did, absolutely, and part of what I

591
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: wanted to capture was the cost of that, right, like

592
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: everybody was doing. I think one of the hard things

593
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: about this story is that the families were doing what

594
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: they thought was best. You know, you see this too.

595
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: And Ricky Langley's family, um, which really struggled. His family

596
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: really struggled, and when he as a young man started

597
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: to struggle, they took him to a psychologist. You know,

598
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: they tried to do what they thought was best. Well,

599
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: this is something that I know, Alexandria, and I'm coming

600
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: right back to you. And unlike for Dr Chloe Carmichael

601
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: and Joe Scott Morgan and the Duke to take this

602
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: in as well. Um, Laura lay Gilroy comes some calls

603
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: for her son, who had been outside playing. She didn't

604
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 1: get a response. She went to the Lawrence house, where

605
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: her baby often played. Langley answered the door. Gilroy asked

606
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: him if he had seen her son. He said, no, Okay,

607
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: you know that just reminded me of something. Okay, do

608
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: you remember the very first murder? Okay, Kine and Abel

609
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: and they come and say, where's your brother? I don't know.

610
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. The very first murder, she comes and says,

611
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: where is Jeremy? I don't know, I haven't seen him.

612
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: She goes to go search for him and then comes

613
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: back to calling nine one one. Right after that, he

614
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: Ricky Langley makes his own nine one one call to

615
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: report the boy missing and then pretends to help the

616
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: mother look for the boy. They start to search the

617
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: wooded area. A command center is set up, a search

618
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: was conducted throughout the weekend. Finally, on that Monday, police

619
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: get information that there was a convicted child molester named

620
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: Ricky Langley whose last address was in the area. What

621
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: happened then, Joe Scott Morgan? How was Jeremy's body found?

622
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: And this is after all the subterfuge, his own nine

623
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: one one call him pretending to help find the boy

624
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: after he had just stuffed a dirty sock in his mouth.

625
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: How was the body found? Joe Scott Morgan found in

626
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: the home of Ricky Langley in a closet um placed

627
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: in there by this person who had, you know, initially

628
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: attempted to aid insert And it's quite striking as well.

629
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: One of one of the things that's brought forward in

630
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: this is that when lord Ala. The mother had actually

631
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: come searching for her little boy. Uh. Alexander points out

632
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: in her work that that um that he was that

633
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: initially he had laid him out on the bed covered

634
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 1: with a Dick Tracy blanket, if you will, a cartoon character.

635
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: And the mother had come to the house initially looking

636
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: for her little boy to be begun that he had

637
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: carried leaned against the wall there uh and this, you know,

638
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: the cycle continues until finally the young the young boy's

639
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: body is actually found uh in in the home of

640
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: Ricky Langley. I want to take this moment and thank

641
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: our partner for making our program possible. Today it's super Beats.

642
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Speaker 1: row six eight three or go online to Nancy's Beats

663
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,479
Speaker 1: dot com. Today, I want to go to Dr Chloe

664
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 1: Carmichael joining US psychologists out of Manhattan. We're talking about

665
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: the horrific molestation and murder of a six year old

666
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: little boy, Jeremy Gilroy, against the backdrop of this incredible book,

667
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: The Fact of a Body, a Murder and a Memoir

668
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: by Alexandria Marzano Lesanovitch joining us, Dr Chloe. I keep

669
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: thinking about what Alexandria said about her own horrific moments

670
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: as a child when she was assaulted by her grandfather

671
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: and it all came rushing back to her and she

672
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: can actually feel his hands on her body again as

673
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: she heard testimony and evidence in this case, I'm thinking

674
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: about the advice the parents were given by a psychologist

675
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: to try to minimize what happened, not make a big

676
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: deal out of it at the time, to help Alexandria heal.

677
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Dr Chloe Carmichael, Thanks Nancy,

678
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: that's such a such an important question. UM. So it

679
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: is true that we don't want to suggest to a

680
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: child that's something like this has to define them, UM,

681
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: But but we do definitely want to model for the

682
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: child that the abuser does need to be held accountable,

683
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: and we want to praise the child for speaking up.

684
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: We want to make the child, UM know that the

685
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: adults will stand around them and support them, and we

686
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: also want to model that we will insist that the

687
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: abuser get help and support and be held accountable. UM.

688
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: You know, Alexandria, you're you know, such a brave person

689
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: to be able to share all of this, UM and

690
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: to put this out for us to to understand together.

691
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 1: And in that particular case, I also can't help, but wonder, um,

692
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, about your grandfather's relationship with you know, either

693
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: the mother or the father that ultimately you know, decided

694
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: to um suggest that the healthiest thing here to do

695
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: would be to keep it quiet. Um. Sometimes these family

696
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,959
Speaker 1: patterns do get transmitted. You know. There's been a lot

697
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: of controversy for some reason as to whether Ricky Langley,

698
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: a known pedophile, assaulted six year old Jeremy before his murder.

699
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: And I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Court

700
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit, Louisiana versus Ricky Joseph Langley.

701
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: In this decision was April six, two thousand eleven. The

702
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: facts has laid out and they go back to the

703
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: trial transcript, which is undisputed as to what happened at trial.

704
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: Granted there were several trials, but it was not disputed

705
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: what the defendants said. The defendants said that from the

706
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: moment he saw the six year old boy, he quote

707
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: wanted him, that he wanted to molest him. On the

708
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: friday that he murdered the six year old child, Jeremy,

709
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: the child was at the house playing with Lawrence's son,

710
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: but Jeremy left when Mrs Lawrence and her son left

711
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: to visit a relative. He later returned with a BB

712
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: gun while the defendant was there alone and asked if

713
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: his little friend was there. The defendant said, come in

714
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: and visit, so Jeremy came in and put his BB

715
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: gun down in the front room, where it was later

716
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: spotted as Joseph Scott Morgan told you. Still sitting in

717
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: the front room, defendants said he knew then that he

718
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: would quote mess with the child unless someone came home

719
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 1: when the child left immediately. Langley goes on to state

720
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: that while Jeremy was playing, he went up behind him,

721
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: put his arm around his neck, lifted him off the

722
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: floor and choked him, and that he knew then he

723
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: was going to kill the six year old child. He

724
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 1: stated that Jeremy was kicking and that his little boots

725
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: came off his feet. He was kicking so hard to live.

726
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: He goes on to state he quote felt enjoyment while

727
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: he was choking the six year old child. That when

728
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: Jeremy quit moving, he carried him to his Langley's bedroom

729
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: and laid him on the bed. That he then put

730
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: his penis in the child's mouth, and ejaculated. He states.

731
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: Jeremy left Jeremy there and went about the task of

732
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: doing laundry. At some point, Jeremy was making noises, and

733
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: he then put a ligature around his neck, choked him,

734
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: pulling the ligature as hard as he could, tying the

735
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: ends of the court together, and stuffed a sock in

736
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: Jeremy's mouth. Those are the facts as recited by the

737
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit. Those are the

738
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: facts as we know them now. Alexandria Marzano Lessanovitch ended

739
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: up working on this case as an intern at a

740
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: law firm tasked with getting Langley out of the death penalty. Alexandria,

741
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: when you look back on your task of saving this

742
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: guy from the death penalty, and you contrast that with

743
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 1: the facts that I have just recited from the trial transcript,

744
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts? You know? I I you said

745
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: something earlier that had really stayed with me, Nancy, when

746
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: you talked about how one thing about circumstantial evidence means

747
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: that we can tell a story out of it, and

748
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: this case was really a contest between stories. So, for example,

749
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: one of the really riveting facts you just gave us

750
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: that Langley ejaculated into Jeremy's mouth. It's really important to

751
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: note that at one trial that was given as a fact,

752
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: but at other trials that was not only disputed, but

753
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: in fact there was no physical evidence of it. So

754
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: that when they other than his statement and the sperm

755
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: all the boys teacher that when when they did uh

756
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: testing in Jeremy's mouth and would have expected to find ejaculate,

757
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: and when they tested the contents of Jeremy's stomach that

758
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: was not found. Interesting. So, Joe Scott Morgan, we have

759
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: him stating exactly what he did, and you've got the

760
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: boy lying on the bed, and all the other facts

761
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: that he stated in his confession are corroborated by the

762
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: physical evidence. There is the child else t shirt covered

763
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: in his ejaculate. Um. I get the sense that we're

764
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: now splitting hairs as to whether he ejaculated in his

765
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: mouth or not. Just Scott, can you help me out forensically?

766
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't I don't necessarily know that that there would

767
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: be ejaculate uh readily visible or are detectable in the

768
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 1: child's mouth. But what we do know is that, uh,

769
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: I know it wouldn't be detectable in his stomach. Yeah,

770
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: that would. But keep keeping on what was alluded to

771
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: in the in the decision that you read, he went back.

772
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: It says that he went back and actually facilitated the

773
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: literature because he heard him moving. Now, he he might

774
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: not have been able to necessarily ingest in what we

775
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: would normally think. But yeah, I mean you would think

776
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: that in a manner which we would normally think. But

777
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: he he was still alive for that period of time.

778
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: And but what we do know is that there was

779
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: ejaculate that was tied back to this person on the shirt.

780
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: And this is this is an example of things that

781
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: I've seen in the past, particularly with individuals that are

782
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 1: basically necrophiles, after they've taken someone's life. In serial cases

783
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: I've been involved in, they they long to have a

784
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: control over an individual and then to stand over them

785
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: and uh and masturbate over bodies. And this is something

786
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: that you can see in the literature over and over

787
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: and over again. It is kind of a splitting hair's

788
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: issue here. What we do know is that there was

789
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: some type of sexual contact. The interesting thing though, is

790
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: was it anti mortem or pre or post mortem? I

791
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: have a question, just curious Alexandra. Why does it matter

792
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: if he ejaculated in the boy's mouth or not. You know,

793
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: it's important to note that Laura a. Gillary believes her

794
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: son was not molested iraculation. But why why is that important?

795
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: Because the facts really speak for themselves, don't they. You know? Then,

796
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: and then I think we wouldn't have had three trials.

797
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: But the spot of ejaculate that we've talked about was

798
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: actually on the back of his shirt, right, so if

799
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: he were lying on his back. I mean, one of

800
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: the things that was interesting about this case to me

801
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: is just that the facts can appear to be so simple,

802
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: and yet we have three trials and we never quite

803
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: nailed down what happened. And I think one of the

804
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: reasons that it is so important is because it goes

805
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: to sometimes this unknowability of the past. You know, I

806
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: saw this in my own life, that there were facts

807
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: and the abuse that were very very clear, and then

808
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: there were things that my body would hold or that

809
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: lived as memories inside me that I would never quite understand.

810
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: And I think it goes to what we're doing in

811
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: some ways when we decide whether someone is going to

812
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: live or die in the death penalty, case, but also

813
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: what we're doing when we tell ourselves a story out

814
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 1: of our own lives and try to make peace with

815
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: the I'm extent, the irreconcilable or unknowable past, is that

816
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: we try to figure out how to make sense. Dr

817
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael joining us along with Alexandra Marzano Lezanovitch. Dr Chloe,

818
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: Alexandra brought up Guys with Me is Dr Chloe carmichael

819
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: website Anxiety tools dot com, Anxiety tools dot com. Dr

820
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: Chloe Um Alexandria is referring to the I guess dispute

821
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: of facts, which I don't really see. That the boy's dead,

822
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: my strangulation with a defendant seaman on his shirt, and

823
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: all the facts corroborate both the child lest station and murder,

824
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: so I'm not quite sure I see the issue. But

825
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, the fact that Alexandra has brought up the

826
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: child's mother, Laurelie, refused to believe that her child was molested,

827
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: even with a known pedophile that say that he wanted

828
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: to molest the boy since he first saw him, and

829
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: that he molested him horribly as he died. Why would

830
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: a mother not want to accept that fact about her

831
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 1: child's murder, that he was also molested. Yes, Nancy, that's

832
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 1: a that's a very it's a very painful question um

833
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 1: to confront, because of course Jeremy's mother has been through

834
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: so much already and um, having having lost her son,

835
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: and on a primal level, um, even though obviously it's

836
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: not her fault, there's a part of her that may

837
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: feel as if she failed to protect her son. And

838
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: so the more gruesome and the more horrible that her

839
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: son's death was, the more guilty and painful that she

840
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: might feel inside. So it's possible that there's just a

841
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: limit to how much she can understand and grasp here,

842
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes the mind just kind of shuts off at

843
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: a certain point, and that might actually be the breaking

844
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: point here. Everyone with me. Alexandria Marzano Losnovich, author of

845
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 1: an incredible book, The Fact of a Body, a Murder

846
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: and a Memoir. Dr Chloe Carmichael joining me, psychologist out

847
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: of Manhattan, her website Anxiety tools dot Com, Forensics expert,

848
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 1: Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott Morgan

849
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: and Alan Duke joining us from l A. Alexandria, where

850
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: does the case stand now, what was the resolution in

851
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: the murder case of Ricky Langley. He is serving a

852
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: life sentence and he will always be serving a life sentence.

853
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: He will be in president until he does so. At

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, Ricky Langley has escaped the

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Speaker 1: death penalty and seemingly everyone goes about their business except

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Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano Wesnovitch and her incredible book The Fact of

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Speaker 1: a Body, a Murder and a Memoir. Thank you everyone.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend m