1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Hey, Happy Saturday listeners. We have gotten a number of 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: emails and tweets over the last couple of months asking 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: if we have seen an article about the Vliska As 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: murders as being solved. So first, yes, we have seen 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: the article. Uh. And seconds UH. This book, which is 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: called The Man from the Train Presents was really a hypothesis, 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: not like an ironclad solution. Uh. It's authors scoured old 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: records for similar crimes, and based on that research, they 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: concluded that the Veliska murders were the work of a 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: serial killer who traveled by train and struck families who 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: lived near the tracks. We talk about a number of 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: other times that people had thought they'd cracked this case 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: in our episode on the murders, including some leads that 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: were also connected to serial killers. So we thought, in 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: light of the recent book and questions, that it would 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: be a good time to reshare it. Welcome to Stuff 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: you missed in History Class from dot com. Hello the 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: podcast and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Uh. And today's subject 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 1: has been requested by multiple listeners, especially when we first 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:25,199 Speaker 1: came on the podcast. We came on just after Kind 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: of the hundred, the anniversary of the event we're talking 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: about today, and so it had been covered by a 23 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: number of papers and had kind of been in people's 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: minds a little bit more. It's actually been on my 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: list for almost since the beginning, and we haven't had 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: an X Murderer episode in a little while, so we're 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: do I suppose, as do as one can be for 28 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: such things. Uh. This one has some haunting mythology around it. 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: It remains an unsolved case, so it's good for the 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: Halloween season, and it's probably no surprise based on the 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: fact that I've already said this is an X Murderer episode. 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: But just to be safe, here's the warning. This is 33 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: some graphic talk of some pretty brutal murders and particularly 34 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: the deaths of children, which I know can be really 35 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: difficult for some people to hear. So if you are 36 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: sensitive to violent subjects of this nature, or if you 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: listen with younger history buffs, this is maybe one to 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: proceed with caution or to pre screen. For example, I 39 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: can already tell you my best friend is not going 40 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: to partake of this one. She and I were talking 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: about it while I was researching, uh, and as a 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: parent for her, it's just too rough to listen to 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and the story is incredibly tragic, 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: and even I mean, I'm I'm often quite open that 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm not really a kid's person. Um. It took me 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: a long time to research because I would find that 47 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: I just had to get up and walk away for 48 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: a while, because it's just it's brutal and it's hard 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: to think about somebody doing the things that this person 50 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: or persons did. So we are talking about the Valiska 51 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: as murders, and before we get into the details of 52 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: the actual event, I will let Tracy set the scene 53 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about the town of Vliska, Iowa. Yeah, 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: so Fliska, Iowa. This took place in nineteen twelve. Pliska 55 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: is in Montgomery County and it's only about four square 56 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: kilometers in size, so not not really big. Omaha, Nebraska 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: and des Moines, Iowa are the nearest large metro areas 58 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: and Vliska is roughly in between them and a little 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: bit south. Yeah, it's a little closer to one side 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: than the other. But for the purposes of this in 61 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: between and in the early nineteen hundreds, this was a 62 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: town that was on a growth trajectory. It was kind 63 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: of rural, but there was a budding business community. The 64 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: train depot was very busy. They had a lot of 65 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: trains coming and going and visitors and business people, and 66 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 1: it was a close knit community. Josiah B. Moore, who 67 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: was the father of the family at the center of 68 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: this whole unsettling crime, was forty three and nineteen twelve. 69 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: He's sometimes referred to as j. B. And he had 70 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: lived in Valiska for thirteen years when he died, and 71 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: was a respected businessman. He had married Sarah Montgomery on 72 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: December six, and Sarah had been born in Illinois in 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three and she moved to Iowa in eighteen 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: ninety four when the rest of her family moved there. 75 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: She was thirty nine at the time of the murders. 76 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: The Morris had four children. Herman was eleven and was 77 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: also really close to his father. Catherine was their second 78 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: child and she was aged ten at the time of 79 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: the attack. There were also two younger brothers, Boyd who 80 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: was seven and Paul, who was five, and there are 81 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: two other children that were victims in this case. So 82 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: on the morning of June nine of nineteen twelve, sisters Lena, 83 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: who was twelve, and Ainah, who was eight. Stillinger Uh 84 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: They were the daughters of Joseph and Sarah Stillinger attended 85 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: Sunday services at the Presbyterian Church, and the girls were 86 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: intending to visit with their grandmother for the day after 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: church had concluded and then. The plan for the rest 88 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: of the day was that the girls would then go 89 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: back to church to attend special Children's Day activities in 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 1: the evening before returning to their grandmother's house to spend 91 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: the night. But the evening's plans changed when Katherine Moore 92 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: invited her two friends to spend the night at the 93 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: Moor House after the Children's Day activities. Dabie Moore called 94 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: still at the Stillinger home. On the phone, he left 95 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: a message with Lena and I'na's older sister Blanche to 96 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: pass along to their parents that they would be spending 97 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 1: the evening with them. So, you know, one of those 98 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: parenting heads up calls, your kids are gonna stay over here. 99 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: If this was in part because the girls seemed a 100 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: kind of afraid to walk back to their grandmother's house 101 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: alone in the dark. Yeah. The Children's Day program, led 102 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: by Sarah Moore began at eight pm, so this was 103 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: an evening thing. It would have been quite dark when 104 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: they concluded at nine pm, and once the festivities were 105 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: all wrapped up, the entire More family and the two 106 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: young Stillinger sisters walked back to the More home and 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: arrived there is estimated somewhere between and ten pm. On 108 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: the morning of June tenth, the More's next door neighbor, 109 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: Mary Peckham, noticed that the house was unusually quiet. She 110 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: hadn't seen any of the family come outside or start 111 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: their normal morning chores. So sometimes shortly after seven am, 112 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: Mrs Peckham walked over to the Moor house and knocked 113 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: on the door. She got no response, and so she 114 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: tried the door and found it locked. And this is 115 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: one of those areas that there is some conflicting information 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: in various records, so many will say this was actually 117 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: pretty unusual for the door to have been locked. Uh. 118 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: The habitual locking of doors at night was not really 119 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: particularly common practice at this time in Valisca or in 120 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: fact many other places you know, in the early nineteen hundreds, 121 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: there just wasn't that sort of level of uh lockdown 122 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: at the end of the night. Mrs Peckham, who was 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: troubled and also wanted to help let the Moore's chickens out, 124 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: as the family would normally have done themselves in the morning. 125 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: And then she also telephoned Ross Moore, who was Josiah's brother, 126 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and Rossmore arrived at the home of his brother's family. 127 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: He shouted and he knocked. He attempted to peer into 128 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: the house through the windows, but they were covered and 129 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: he got neither reaction nor information, like he couldn't there 130 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: was nothing. So eventually he went through his keys until 131 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: he found the one that unlocked the door. Like he 132 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: had a copy of their key, but it took him 133 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: a little while to sort out which one it was. 134 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: Mary Peckham was there with Rossmore, but she didn't venture 135 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: past the porch and into the house. The surviving Moore 136 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: brother didn't go past the second room of the house. 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: He opened the door to the bedroom off the parlor, 138 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: and he immediately saw the bodies of two children on 139 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: the bed, as well as an enormous amount of blood. 140 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: He went back to the porch and told Mary Peckham 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: to call the police. Yeah, and this is a very small, 142 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: i mean by today's standards home. So the bottom floor 143 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: was only three rooms. It was like the parlor or 144 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: the front room, this small bedroom and a kitchen. So 145 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: after they raised an alert, City Marshall Hank Horton responded. 146 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: He quickly arrived on the scene and his investigation of 147 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: the house revealed the in addition to the two bodies 148 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: Rossmore had seen the young Stillinger sisters, there were six 149 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: more bodies upstairs. The entire More family and their guests 150 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: had been killed in their beds. It was about nine 151 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: in the morning when the county coroner finally got there 152 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: and took a look at the situation. He later reviewed 153 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: his findings with the sheriff and the marshal, and then 154 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: he called a coroner's jury to the home. So once 155 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: words spread of what it happened, uh in a small community, 156 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: and these things do spread rather quickly, many townspeople made 157 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: their way to the scene, and this ended up being 158 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: a real problem. We've talked about similar things happening before 159 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: with crime scenes. So these people were all there, they 160 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: were very interested, and so keeping the crime scene intact 161 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: became something of an impossibility. There were accounts of dozens 162 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: of people at a time walking through the house kind 163 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: of with the you know, morbid curiosity trying to catch 164 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: a glimpse of the bodies or see what had happened. 165 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: Some reports even put it at close to a hundred 166 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: people at one point that we're all in the house, 167 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: which again was not that large structure, so you can imagine, 168 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: like keeping evidence intact was completely out the window at 169 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: that point. Irritated by these looky loose yes, Eventually the 170 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: Valiska National Guard had to come and clear the area 171 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: and keep onlookers out of the house. By that time, 172 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: several hours had passed and a lot of the evidence 173 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: was damaged or compromised, which just infuriates me. I want 174 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: to take all the lucky lose first. Stern a stern 175 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: lecture about how not to be terrible. Yeah, and I 176 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: mean I have read some uh there was I forget 177 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: which account it was that I was reading where they 178 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: were kind of pointing out like, yes, this was terrible. 179 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: But even so, there's maybe wouldn't have been that much 180 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: more evident that was really garnered in the investigation. Um, 181 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: but we don't know. So the corner's jury did not 182 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: finish their investigation of the home until after ten pm, 183 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: and it was at that point that the undertaker was 184 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: given clearance to remove the bodies. Uh. Those were taken 185 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: to a local fire station which was being used as 186 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: kind of a makeshift morgue because it was so many 187 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: people at once uh and the undertakers did not finish 188 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: moving the victims until roughly two am. Despite the herd 189 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: of looks who had passed through the crime scene, there 190 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: were some solid facts that they were able to glean 191 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: about these murders. Yes, so the doors to the house, 192 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: all of the doors were locked, and as we mentioned earlier, 193 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: many people believed that this was not a normal state 194 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: of affairs. The curtains in every room of the house 195 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: had been closed, and in the case of two windows 196 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: that had no curtains, Mrs Moore's clothing had been used 197 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: to cover them. Uh and I left it out of 198 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: these notes, but her clothing had also been used to 199 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: cover all of the mirrors in the house. Well that 200 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: now I'm scared. Don't be scared. I don't. I don't 201 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: mean to laugh at his tragic and creepy but I 202 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: don't want Tracy to be scared. No, genuinely, And you 203 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: said that I had a shutter. Sorry, So to get 204 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,479 Speaker 1: more serious, all eight of these victims have been bludgeoned, 205 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: apparently in their sleep with an ax, and each victim's 206 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: head had been covered with bed linens or articles of 207 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: clothing after their skulls had been crushed. Based on the 208 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: medical examination of the bodies, it's believed that the murders 209 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: took place shortly somewhere between shortly after midnight and three am, 210 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: so it's kind of a three hour window. In the 211 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: two rooms where Josiah and Sarah Moore and Lena and 212 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: Ailis Aina Stillinger had been killed, kerosene lamps were found 213 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: at the ends of the beds, with their chimneys removed 214 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: and their wis turned back, as though the killer had 215 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: wanted to dim the ights. The murder weapon had been 216 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: Josiah Moore's. It was found in the room with Lena 217 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: and Aina, and the ceilings in several of the rooms 218 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: had been hit during the killer's upswing as he raised 219 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: the axe. On the kitchen table, there was a plate 220 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: of food and a pan of water, and the water 221 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: had blood in it. The downstairs bedroom where the still 222 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: injured girls were slain, contained a number of clues and 223 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: sort of odd aspects. Uh Aina was sleeping on the 224 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: portion of the bed closest to the wall when she 225 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: was killed, and a coat had been used to cover 226 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: her face. Afterwards, h Lena was situated part way down 227 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: the bed. This led to some speculation that she may 228 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: have been struck and then shifted or wiggled down the 229 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: bed a little bit initially before she died. She was 230 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: wearing no undergarments and her nightgown had been shifted upward. 231 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: There was blood on the inside of one of her 232 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: knees and injuries to one arm, which appeared to be defensive, 233 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: as though she had tried to protect herself against the attacker. 234 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: She's the only one that exhibited any sort of defensive injury. 235 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: There was a two pounds slab of bacon on the floor, 236 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: wrapped in what was either a rag or a dish towel, 237 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: and there was a nearly identical slab of bacon in 238 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: the kitchen ice box. And additionally, there was part of 239 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: a key chain on the floor. And I know what 240 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: some of you people are probably thinking based on a 241 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 1: couple of these details, and I promise you we are 242 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: coming back to them now. We will get to sort 243 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: of the coroner's inquest. The day after the Grizzly discovery. 244 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: So on June eleventh, the coroner's jury began their official 245 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: inquest into the murders and they eventually called fourteen witnesses 246 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: for testimony. So their first witness was Mary Peckham, who 247 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: you know was the first woman, the neighbor that discovered 248 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: that there was something not quite right, and she stated 249 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: that the last time she saw the family was when 250 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: they were leaving for the children's day activities at the 251 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: church on the evening of the ninth. She was already 252 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: in d when the family returned home, and she said 253 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: that she didn't hear any noises during the night. She 254 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: related how she came to be curious about the family's 255 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: whereabouts in the morning because of the unusual stillness of 256 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: the house uh and that she had seen Mr Moore's 257 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: employee Ed Selly arrive and head to the barn to 258 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: tend the horses not long after she contacted Ross Moore. 259 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: The second witness was Ed Selly, and as we just said, 260 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: he was an employee at J. By Moore's store, and 261 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: his testimony indicated that he had opened the store as 262 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: normal the morning of the discovery before being contacted by 263 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: Ross Moore. About the suspicious situation. After speaking with the 264 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: victim's sister in law, Jesse Moore, Selly contacted the Moore's 265 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: parents and Sarah's parents to see if the family had 266 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: gone to visit any of them. So at that point 267 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out where they were, not 268 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: realizing they were in the house. He was then contacted 269 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: by Mrs Peckham about the Moore's livestock, so he left 270 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: the store to tend to the horses and then went 271 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: back to work. Not long after, Mrs Peckham called again, 272 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: this time to tell him to get the Marshal and 273 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: come back to the house. And Selly's testimony, Uh, contradicts 274 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: Mary Peckham's just a little bit, and it's not really 275 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: anything terribly important. I just wanted to point it out. 276 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: He indicated that he had joined Mrs Peckham and Ross 277 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: Moore in entering the house, whereas Mrs Peckham indicated that 278 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: she had never gone past the porch. After the Marshal 279 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: had a preliminary look at the scene, Selly indicated that 280 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: the house was blocked and that he went to the 281 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: store to contact business associates about the situation. Yeah, he 282 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: wanted to let the people that they had business dealings 283 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: with know that uh, Mr Moore had been killed and 284 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: that they were gonna have to make some arrangements. Sally 285 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: was asked if J. B. Moore had any enemies he 286 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: knew of, and he indicated that JB had told him 287 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: that his brother in law, Sam Moyer had it in 288 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: for him. The third witness was Dr. J. Clark Cooper. 289 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: Cooper was the first physician on the scene after the 290 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: bodies were discovered. Cooper described his first access to the bodies, 291 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: first encountering the Stillinger girls who he didn't recognize. He 292 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: also mentioned the lamps without their chimneys. Cooper indicated that 293 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: he didn't touch the bodies on site. He sort of 294 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: performed just a visual assessment at that point. Yeah, he 295 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: didn't do uh any real hands on examination. His statement 296 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: also included that estimated time of death that we talked about, 297 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: and that was based on his observation of the blood 298 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: and brain matter on the scene and the level of 299 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: dryness and congealment it had achieved. Uh. He was also 300 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: the one that introduced the detail that the faces he 301 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: believed had been covered after the bludgeoning, and this was 302 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: based on the fact that none of the covering fabrics 303 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: were stuck to the wounds, They just kind of been 304 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: draped over afterwards. And none of those fabrics or articles 305 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: of clothing had any holes or damage of any kind 306 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: other than normal wear and tear. Witness for was Jesse Moore, 307 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: who was Rossmore's wife. Jesse spoke with Mrs Peckham when 308 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: she first called for Ross and her statement echoed ed 309 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: Sally's regarding what their conversations were like. She also mentioned 310 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: that she later entered Josiah's and Sarah's home to retrieve 311 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: photographs of the family for the local paper, and she 312 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: didn't know of any possible enemies that the family might 313 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: have had. Yeah, there are some accounts that suggests that 314 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: she had gone in and kind of like posed for pictures, 315 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: but those seem like embellishments. She did go in, but 316 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: she was trying to get pictures from the household for 317 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: the press um so that they could be used in 318 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: news stories. Witness number five was Dr F. S. Williams, 319 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: and whereas Dr Cooper that we mentioned just a few 320 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: moments ago had only done a visual inspection on the 321 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: bodies at the crime scene, Dr Williams was the one 322 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: that actually examined the bodies. Um. His testimony described the 323 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: crushed heads of each vic them and their positions in 324 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: their beds. Uh. And he was the one to introduced 325 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: the idea that Lena Stillinger had squirmed on the bed 326 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: after having been struck. Some people have theorized over the 327 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: years that Lena had been sexually assaulted, but Dr Williams 328 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: testimony runs really counter to that. He indicated that he 329 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: had investigated the possibility of a rape, but he didn't 330 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: find any evidence of that kind of violation. Yeah, she 331 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: was the one we mentioned she didn't have any undergarments 332 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: on and that her night dress had been shifted up. 333 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: She may have been the object of some um you know, 334 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: visual stimulation for the killer, but her body was not 335 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: in any way um molested to the best of this 336 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: doctor's knowledge. UH. Witness number six was Edward Landers, and 337 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: Landers was a neighbor. He was actually the son of 338 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: a neighbor. He was staying a few houses down from 339 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: the moors at his mother's house for the summer, and 340 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: he stated that he had gone to bed shortly after 341 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: nine pm on the night of the murders, but he 342 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: had heard a noise during the night that to him 343 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: at the time sounded like people hooting to one another outdoors, 344 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: and he was kind of pressed by the examiners over 345 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: what time this might have been, and he guessed it 346 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: was probably around eleven PM, but he wasn't certain uh, 347 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: And after the news of the murders broke the next morning, 348 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: he began to wonder if the noise that he had 349 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: heard had not been people hooting but in fact a 350 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: woman moaning. The seventh witness was rossmore so besides brother, 351 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: and he relayed the events of the morning of the 352 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: tenth and how he had come to discover the bodies 353 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: of the two style inser girls before exiting the home. 354 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: He mentioned that before opened opening the bedroom door and 355 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: making the discovery, nothing in the home seemed like it 356 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: was out of place, and he also couldn't offer any 357 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: information about possible enemies that the family may have had. 358 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: Witness number eight was Fenwick More and this was another 359 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: More brother. There were several brothers in the mix here. 360 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: His testimony was not particularly illuminating. He aicated that he 361 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: really didn't know anything about his brother's business or if 362 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: he had any enemies, and he was dismissed from the 363 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: stand pretty quickly. The ninth witness was Marshall Hank Horton, 364 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: and the Marshall's testimony was really brief. He basically said 365 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: he had been contacted by Seally to go into the 366 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: More home. He corroborated entering the house with Sally and 367 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: then again with the doctors. Witness number ten was Levin 368 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,239 Speaker 1: Gilder and this was Josiah's nephew, but he also did 369 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: not have a whole lot of information to impart. He 370 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: had briefly been considered a suspect because he had some 371 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of shady uh happenings in his background. His record 372 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: was not entirely clean, but he was cleared pretty early on. 373 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: Witness eleven was another More brother, Harry More, and he 374 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: also had really nothing new to add in the proceedings. 375 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: Like Finnwick, his other brother, he had neither knowledge of 376 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: Jabe's business nor of any possible ill intentions against him. 377 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: Witness twelve was Blanched Stillinger and remember this was Lena 378 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: and his older sister. She was the one that had 379 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: spoken with Jsiah over the phone about the girls sleeping 380 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: over at the Moorhouse, and she was the one that 381 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: kind of said, yeah, I think that will be fine. 382 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: I will tell my parents. And the thirteenth witness was 383 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Stillingser so Lena and i Aina's father. He also 384 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: didn't know of anyone who might commit such a crime, 385 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: and he indicated that his wife had phoned the Moors 386 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: several times in the morning, uh, the morning that the 387 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: bodies were found, because she had expected the girls to 388 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: be back before school time. Yeah, this had happened on 389 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: a Sunday night into the Monday morning hours, and so 390 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: she thought the kids were going to come home and 391 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: get ready for school, but they didn't, so they were 392 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: trying to contact them and getting no answer. The lapst 393 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: witness was Charles Moore. This is yet another more brother. 394 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: Charles testified to the coroner's jury that he knew Josiah 395 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: kept an AX, but when he was questioned, he couldn't 396 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: say with certainty that the murder weapon was the one 397 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: that Josiah owned. He just wasn't sure. Uh. He also 398 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: indicated that it was in fact his brother's habit to 399 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: lock the house from the inside at night. Um. One 400 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: thing that always kind of rings odd to me and 401 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: is not really discussed all that much in a lot 402 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: of these is that the whole house was locked, but 403 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: somehow the killer or killers got out. So that's always 404 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: stayed a little bit of a mystery. Whether they had 405 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: a key or not is unclear. Yeah. Well, and then 406 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: that gets into me super wondering what lock technology was 407 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: like at the time, Like now we have door kodd 408 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: locks that you just plupt the thing and then you 409 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: go out. Well, and there was also you know, uh, 410 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: skeleton keys that could open multiple doors were a little 411 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: more common still than uh, you know, it just wasn't 412 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: quite the same as what we're dealing with today. So 413 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: and that may be one of the reasons that it's 414 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: not really talked about that much. It's not that insane 415 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: a thing. It's not like, uh, even in some of 416 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: the and I'll talk about them briefly at the end, 417 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: but even in like some of the sort of supernatural 418 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: investigations of it, it doesn't really seem to come up 419 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: as like a weird thing, like an entity locked all 420 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: the doors. Uh, doors were just locked. They don't really, 421 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't get embellished a whole lot. But before we 422 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: start talking about suspects and what may have driven someone 423 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: to do this, let's have another quick word from a 424 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: sponsor will take a break from all of this sort 425 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: of dark material for just a moment, so to return 426 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: to this horrifying subject. There were many early leads in 427 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: this case and really no shortage of suspects, but nothing 428 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: ever panned out, and this horrific crime is still unsolved. 429 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: It's not possible in the scope of a podcast episode 430 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: to cover every single suspect, but we're going to talk 431 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: about the more high profile ones. Yeah, this really sort 432 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: of turned this town on its head, and a lot 433 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: of people characterize it as basically making a place where 434 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: people would invite a stranger into their home for a 435 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: meal and you know, be very open and very friendly, 436 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: into a place where suddenly everyone was suspicious of everyone 437 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: else and you know, sort of fear driven suspicion kind 438 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: of led their behavior beyond that And as a consequence, 439 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: a lot of different people were accused of participating in 440 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: this crime. But one of the primary suspects that comes 441 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: up in almost any discussion of this case is Frank F. Jones, 442 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: and he was an Iowa state senator. He had been 443 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: Josiah Moore's boss for many years, but in nineteen eight 444 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: more had struck out on his own opening a farming 445 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: implement company, and he took several of their lucrative business 446 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: partners with him, including the John Deer Company, so Jones 447 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: was a little i rate with him from that point on. 448 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: There were also rumors that Josiah had had an affair 449 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: with jones daughter in law, so Frank Jones and his son, 450 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: so the husband of this daughter in law. We're even 451 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: accused quite publicly by a detective agency of having hired 452 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: a killer named William Mansfield to take out the More family. 453 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: And William Mansfield was arrested for the murders in nineteen sixteen, 454 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: four years after they had taken place. According to Detective 455 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,719 Speaker 1: James Newton Wilkerson, who had been the one that had 456 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: leveled those accusations against the Joneses, uh, he asserted that 457 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: Mansfield was in fact a serial killer and that he 458 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: also had a cocaine habit. Mansfield was also linked via 459 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: Wilkerson's research, to other brutal murders, including those of his 460 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: own wife, child, and his wife's family in nineteen fourteen, 461 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: so that would have been a couple years after Bliska, 462 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: as well as murders in Kansas and Colorado and in 463 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: all of these cases, the victims were bludgeoned with an 464 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: axe in homes where the windows and mirrors were all covered, 465 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: similar to the morselings. Detective Wilkerson was so convinced that 466 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: Mansfield had been hired by Jones that he posted flyers 467 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: all over town with Mansfield's face on them that read, 468 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: this is the axe murderer he murdered the more family 469 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: at Bliska. The hypocrite whose dirty money paid for the 470 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: hellish job wants your support for the state Senate. Will 471 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: he get it? So? I'm sure delighted Jones. Uh, And 472 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 1: I have to say, I think if you have just 473 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: accused a man of hiring someone to kill a man 474 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: who has made you angry, making him angry and this 475 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: way seems like a really bold and foolish move. Um. 476 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: But while Mansfield does seem like an obvious solution to 477 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: who killed the Moors, and while Detective Wokerson really seemed 478 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: for the rest of his life that he was certain 479 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: that what that Mansfield was the killer Uh. Mansfield had 480 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: an art alibi for the time of the Veliska murders 481 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: that placed him in Illinois. There was some payroll happenings 482 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 1: that indicated that he had had been working there at 483 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: the time. There were some eyewitnesses that placed Mansfield in 484 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: Veliska and not Illinois, but none of those uh eyewitness 485 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: accounts were ever substantiated, and Mansfield was eventually set free. 486 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: After his release, Mansfield sued Wilkerson for slander, and he 487 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: was awarded more than two thousand dollars. Wilkerson alleged that 488 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: Jones had in fact managed to use his position of 489 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: power to secure Mansfield's release. Yeah, he also kind of 490 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: blamed Jones for orchestrating the decision in Mansfield's favor during 491 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: the slander case, and he suggested that Frank Jones set 492 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: up the next suspect to kind of take the fall, 493 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: and that next suspect was Reverend George Kelly, who was 494 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: a preacher who had moved to Macedonia, Iowa in nineteen twelve. 495 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: So after the trail went cold with Mansfield, Kelly was 496 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: arrested and charged with the more murders in nineteen seventeen, 497 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: and he was in Baliska for the Children's Day activities 498 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: and he left town the next morning. He was even 499 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: alleged at one point to have spoken of the murders 500 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: on the train out of town, which is early in 501 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: the morning, before the bodies had even been discovered. He 502 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: also returned to Veliska a week after the murders and 503 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: he pretended to be a detective from Scotland Yard to 504 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: gain entry into the More home. He actually had some 505 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: mental problems that were on record, and Kelly was considered 506 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: to be a sexual deviant, obsessed with sex and known 507 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: to have been a peeping tom. There have been some 508 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: theories about the rolled up bacon slab that was found 509 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: downstairs in the bedroom had been used as a sexual 510 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: aid by the killer, and that made people really willing 511 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: to connect the dots to to Kelly, who had this reputation. 512 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: Unlike Mansfield, Kelly actually did confess to the murders, and 513 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: in his confession he wrote, I killed the children upstairs 514 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: first and the children downstairs last. I knew God wanted 515 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: me to do it this way. Slay utterly came to 516 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: my mind, and I picked up the axe, went into 517 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: the house and killed them. So that makes it seem 518 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: like an open and shut ace. But it all fell apart. 519 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: He wound up recanting his confession, and the witnesses that 520 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: initially claimed he talked to them on the train about 521 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: the murders before it was public knowledge. I'll change their story. 522 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: He was also a really small man, at five ft 523 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: two inches tall, and he weighed less than a hundred 524 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: and twenty pounds, So the idea of him being able 525 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: to deliver the crushing blows that killed the family was 526 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: a little difficult to support. I imagine at that height 527 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: it might have been also difficult for the upswings of 528 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: the axe to hit the ceiling. Yes, I couldn't find anything. 529 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: I thought about that as well, and I couldn't find 530 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: anything substantial. I'm sure we could do it if with 531 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more time to find out what the 532 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: height of the ceilings were in the length of the axe. 533 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: But I did not have time to work out the 534 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: math on that. And while somebody that size could probably 535 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: easily until children, Mr Moore was like six ft tall 536 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: and weighed about two hundred pounds, you know, he was 537 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: a full grown man, So it it seemed like that 538 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: would have been a little bit more of a stretch 539 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: for Kelly to be able to manage. Kelly was actually 540 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: tried twice for this crime. The first trial resulted in 541 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: a hung jury, and in the second trial, the jury 542 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: freed him because there was really no evidence other than 543 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: sort of the suspicion that he was weird and deviant 544 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: and might be the kind of person to do these things. 545 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: The third suspect was Henry Lee Moore, and in May 546 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirteen, almost a year after the murders, a 547 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: federal investigator on the case named m W. Mccloudy, announced 548 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: that he had solved it, as well as twenty two 549 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: other similar cases. Mcclardy believed all of the slings to 550 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: be the work of serial killer Henry Lee Moore, who 551 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: was not actually relation to the More family. It was 552 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: not yet another More brother. Yeah, it was just coincidental 553 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: that they had the last name. Uh. A few months 554 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: after the Valiska incident, Henry More was convicted of murdering 555 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: his mother and grandmother in Missouri. The brutality of the 556 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: victims was quite similar. They were legend with an AX 557 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: and UH. It should be pointed out that one of 558 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: the things that differs is that he was allegedly motivated 559 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: by money. In this he was hoping to gain their 560 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: assets after they died. As the Valiska investigation had gone on, 561 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: multiple similar acts murders were uncovered in Colorado, Illinois, and Kansas, 562 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: and some of these were crimes Mansfield had also been 563 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: linked to by other investigators, but McClary thought they were 564 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: all Henry Morris doing more actually served thirty six years 565 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: of his life sentence for the deaths of his mother 566 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: and grandmother. UH and then he was paroled in nineteen 567 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: forty nine. UH. He ended up having his sentence commuted 568 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: some years later when he was in his eighties. UM. 569 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: He kind of falls off the public record after that. 570 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: No one really knows like or he went or how 571 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: he died. But he was never formally charged for the 572 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: murders in Valiska, despite mccloudy's insistence that he was clearly 573 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: the one who had done it. In addition to these 574 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: three high profile suspects, there were so so many others, 575 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: And initially it was because of the shocking nature of 576 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: the hot side. Citizens of Aliska suspected anyone who wasn't 577 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: from around there. Some of them were legitimately suspect, although 578 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: not not ever actually linked to the murders, and some 579 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: of them were simply guilty of being strangers. And I 580 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: wanted to make a note about the similarities among the 581 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: murders UH that were discovered in other states and other areas, 582 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: and the use of an AX as the murder weapon. 583 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: It's worth considering just food for thought that this was 584 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: a time when almost every home would have an X, 585 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: often readily accessible UH. Mike dash who was a writer 586 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: that wrote an article for the Smithsonian in twelve about 587 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: the Valiska killings, makes the point that this sort of 588 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: could be considered a weapon of convenience for the times, 589 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: Like in the Midwest, if you just wanted to go 590 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: on a killing spree, an access pretty easy to get 591 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: ahold of. Additionally, as is the case often with high 592 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: profile crimes, confessors came out of the woodwork for decades. 593 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: People were confessing to the crime well into the nineteen thirties, 594 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: although many of these confessions got details wildly wrong. Yeah, 595 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: you know that that happens with any big UH murder case. 596 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: Or there are people that confess that could not have 597 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: done it for whatever reasons, but those, of course, we're 598 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: pretty easily dismissed in most cases. Um So, jumping to 599 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: sort of the modern day UH in the house where J. B. 600 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: More and his family were killed was purchased by Darwin 601 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: and Martha Lynn and the Lins restored the house to 602 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: its nineteen twelve condition, and the residents was placed on 603 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: the National Historic Places Registry in nineteen. Prior to the 604 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: Lens purchase, the house had passed through many hands of 605 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: ownership and it had been repeatedly renovated, so it was 606 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: really quite a significant restoration effort. Today you can tour 607 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: the home. It's actually a museum, and for a little 608 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: less than five hundred dollars a night, you can book 609 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: sleepovers in the murder House. It's actually one of the 610 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: main draws of Valisco, which is a pretty rural town. 611 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: If you want to book on the anniversary of the murders, though, 612 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: there's a lottery. And there have been many discussions and 613 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: debates through the years about whether it's right for a 614 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: business to grow out of such a tragedy and so 615 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: much brutality. These debates probably go on for as long 616 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: as the museum is open. Yeah, I mean a lot 617 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: of articles if you search for this that talk about 618 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: it kind of from the modern standpoint. They really do 619 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: discuss kind of that this is a problem and something 620 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: that continues to be debated, and and they kind of 621 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: look at like the Valisca murder houses. This odd money 622 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: making machines of but you know that's something that you 623 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: can draw your own conclusions and have your own opinions of. UM. 624 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: Paranormal investigators and ghost hunters have of course kind of 625 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: flocked to this house hoping to get some activity that 626 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: they can record or discuss. It's been featured on a 627 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: lot of numerous television reality and making the air quotes shows, uh, 628 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: and there have been several documentaries made about the murders 629 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: that are less about sensationalizing it and making a haunted 630 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: house ghost story, but really just trying to break down 631 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: the actual crime. UM. I kind of feel like a 632 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: broken record when I do this wrap up, because we 633 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,479 Speaker 1: do it for almost any of the cases where they're 634 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: go unsolved. But odds are that this one is not 635 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: ever going to be solved. And the further away we 636 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: get from the date of when it actually happened, the 637 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: less and less evidence there will be to go on. 638 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: So it will remain a draw for crime history buffs 639 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: and visitors to the Valiska Murder House. Uh, probably for 640 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: quite some time. But that is the Valiska Murders, which, 641 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: as I said, we're requested by a large number of people. 642 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: Very unsettling and disturbing to think about. Uh, but you know, 643 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: good Halloween fodder. And again it is a huge tragedy. 644 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, I'm not a kids person, 645 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: but reading these testimonies about what happened to these children 646 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: was so rough for me. Yeah, I kept I kept 647 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: going like, let's go hug a kitty. I'm having to 648 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: go out to cartoon for fifteen minutes, just anything to 649 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: kind of break the intensity of that. Well, and in 650 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: addition to how I got genuinely creeped out sitting here 651 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: when you said all the mirrors were covered up with 652 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: their clothing, Um, the part about their you know that 653 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: the parents of the children who were visiting the home 654 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: calling over there because they were expecting them to be 655 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: home for school, that really got to me. It's it's 656 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: very upsetting to think about. I mean, these were, you know, 657 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: kids that were part of someone's lives, and it was 658 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: just it could be it's one of those this could 659 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: happen to anyone kinds of things. UM. And I think 660 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: especially when these kinds of crimes happen in rural communities 661 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: that were very you know, friendly and and pretty free 662 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: of this kind of thing. It's really shocking. It kind 663 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: of reminds me of when I first read in Cold 664 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: Blood Patry as a kid, because it's kind of a 665 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: similar there's some parallels there. Um, it's hard to think 666 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: about what a mental shift that has to be for 667 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: the entire community to be Like, one day life is 668 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: one way and the next day you see it all 669 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: completely differently. Thank you so much for joining us for 670 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: this Saturday Classic. Since this is out of the archive, 671 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: if you heard an email address or a Facebook U 672 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: r L or something similar during the course of the show, 673 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: that may be obsolete. Now, so here's our current contact information. 674 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: We are at History Podcast at how stuff Works dot com, 675 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: and then we're at Missed in the History. All over 676 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: social media, that is our name on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, Pinterest, 677 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: and Instagram. Thanks again for listening for more on this 678 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. House of stot comm