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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. Hey, everybody, welcome to episode

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Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty three. I think that's right. Phil's

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Speaker 1: not here. I'm alone Joe for Anato's here. Was that right, Joe?

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's one three? Hard to say, Hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: I don't have covid um. I'm back in the office,

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Speaker 1: back in the studio, fills out recording with Steve Ornella,

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Speaker 1: who is basically just stealing him from me. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think they're recording with Tom Broke. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: break any news, but they're out at Tom broke Call's ranch,

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Speaker 1: I think right now, recording for the media podcast. So again, Joe,

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Speaker 1: everybody's leaving me. Yep, Phil left me. Now you're leaving.

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving. I'm leaving you. What's up with that? Man?

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Speaker 1: It's something I did. Yeah, Actually it was pretty much

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Speaker 1: all you Okay, how much all you come into the

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Speaker 1: office every day and seeing you? Thanks? Thanks, well, thanks

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Speaker 1: for the honesty. I really appreciate. Joe is leaving to

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Speaker 1: go work. He's going leaving to kind of retrace my steps.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I've inspired you to live the life. I need

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Speaker 1: to go learn. I need to have those Yeah, he's taken.

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Speaker 1: He's taking a new job. Had a publication you might

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Speaker 1: have heard of called Peterson's Hunting Magazine where I once

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Speaker 1: served as an editor. Yep. And so we're happy for you, Joe. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'm excited for the new opportunity you.

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Speaker 1: We're losing you. It's really said, I wish I could

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Speaker 1: do both. What if you could just keep coming in

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Speaker 1: here and it's like, just be on, You're not gonna

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Speaker 1: get paid for it, but just because you're like hanging

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Speaker 1: out with me and Phil enough to just come in right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like that. I would do it all right. Well,

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Speaker 1: call me whenever you want me to when whenever you

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Speaker 1: need a Jamie, I'm here for you. I'll be texting

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Speaker 1: you in the middle of the night. Hey man, google

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Speaker 1: this you recording? No, but I want you to google

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Speaker 1: for me. Um, do you have any last words? Is

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Speaker 1: there anything that you have any thinking about that you want? Uh?

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Speaker 1: The seventh most people in hunting podcasts to hear seventh

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Speaker 1: ranked hunting podcast. Um, is there anybody? It might be

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Speaker 1: six by now. I just think it's interesting that people

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Speaker 1: actually listen to it. Yeah, thanks for that. I'm just

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Speaker 1: kidding you would, Phil, Really, it really doesn't help my ego. No,

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Speaker 1: I think it's great. Any last war, any any anything

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Speaker 1: that you've learned over your time at Meat Eater, anything

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Speaker 1: you'd like to say about maybe like Steve Ornella or

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Speaker 1: how he is. There's so much, there's so much. I've

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Speaker 1: learned so much. Um. I think the biggest thing I've

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Speaker 1: learned is keep an open mind. Listen, especially when you're

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Speaker 1: in a situation where you don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Just shut up, listen to the other people in there.

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Speaker 1: Him and learned something which most of us don't know

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Speaker 1: most things, Yeah, exactly, just putting it out there, even

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Speaker 1: if I don't know things about hunting. And I have

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Speaker 1: a podcast, Hey Talking, and that's okay because you bring

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Speaker 1: in all these amazing guests that offer different points of views,

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Speaker 1: different different bits of information that are really good for

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Speaker 1: everybody to learn from. It's a good point to make, Joe.

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Speaker 1: It's a good point. That's probably the best thing about

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Speaker 1: podcasts because people listen to a great conversation and you're

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Speaker 1: pretty much a part of the conversation. But it doesn't

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Speaker 1: allow you to have that outlet to jump in and yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: shout out to a guy named Dane Ossiveto from Idaho

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Speaker 1: because he won the back forty contest that we did

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Speaker 1: last year with Mark Kenyan and Stephen Ronnella, and I

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Speaker 1: was talking to him about his win and he's like, Dude,

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Speaker 1: this is weird. I feel like I've had lots of

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Speaker 1: conversations with you, but we've never met. I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's weird for both of us. Yeah, it's weird for

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Speaker 1: both of us. But anyway, today's podcast is all in

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Speaker 1: celebration of Joe and all your days here at Meat

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Speaker 1: Either may you and you got married? I got married?

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Speaker 1: Mentioned that, Yeah, and you got a ring made out

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Speaker 1: of sheep's big horn. Sheephorn, which is it sounds really

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Speaker 1: weird to say. Listen, I think it's cool, but just

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Speaker 1: just know that's kind of on the edge between being

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Speaker 1: cool and being douche. So I meant to say that

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Speaker 1: to you, Hey, don't pay everybody. No, No, it's not

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Speaker 1: not The ring isn't douche. The way you presented to

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Speaker 1: other people. I'm just just want to just want to

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Speaker 1: warn you. If you're like, hey, check out, check this out.

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Speaker 1: My wife. My wife got me. Now you let them

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Speaker 1: notice your awesome ring. What is that? By the bye,

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Speaker 1: it's a normal thing for me that it's made of sheephorn,

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Speaker 1: because that's the kind of guy that I am exactly. Anyhow,

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Speaker 1: today we're gonna we got a lot, a lot to

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Speaker 1: do today. Um, We're gonna have a non discussion about

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Speaker 1: an important topic here in the second that's the New

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Speaker 1: Zealand Call of tar Um, but has been a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have been asking me to talk about. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have a non discussion about that. And then

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Speaker 1: we're going to pay tribute to the late great Jim Pozziwo,

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Speaker 1: who passed away this last week at the great age

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Speaker 1: of eighty five. It's a sad that's a sad time,

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Speaker 1: but also a good time to celebrate this man his life.

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Speaker 1: Listen back to some of the words he told us

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Speaker 1: an episode forty four, and and I think we'll close

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Speaker 1: the show with a story from Jim because he's a

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Speaker 1: great man and he did a lot for us. Um.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that that final tribute to him, UM,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk to James Tantillo. Dr James d'antillo, an

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Speaker 1: ethicist at a Cornell was also part of Jim Pozzo.

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Speaker 1: It's O'Ryan the Hunter's Institute, which was focused on hunting

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Speaker 1: and hunting ethics. So it's a greater tribute to Jim.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk hunting ethics. We're gonna talk sticky situations.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk uh crossbows, We're going to talk um baiting.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about all these things that that Jim

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Speaker 1: kind of waded into in his books, like Fair Chase

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Speaker 1: and the other things that he wrote along his storied life.

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Speaker 1: And so rest in peace to to Jim posewits a

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Speaker 1: great man. A big part of this show. Had so

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Speaker 1: many people over the weekend and found out his passing

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Speaker 1: text me or right and talk about UM this show

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Speaker 1: and introducing him a year and a half ago to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and those people being affected by

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Speaker 1: his writings and his thoughts. And I think that's probably

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Speaker 1: just a micro cosmim of who that man was and

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Speaker 1: what he meant over the years that he was able

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Speaker 1: to um impact the hunting community the way that he was.

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Speaker 1: So UM, thank you for everything, Jim, godspeed, and we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about your family and we're thinking about your legacy.

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Speaker 1: So we'll keep on keeping on um about that take

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Speaker 1: a little bit, a little moment. Sorry, a little emotional there,

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Speaker 1: But man, you know what, Joe, when I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about Jim, pause, what's I'm thinking, here's the guy who

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Speaker 1: was on podcast. I had a chance to have several

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Speaker 1: conversations with him. I knew that he had a legacy

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Speaker 1: that meant something to me. But then when he died,

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Speaker 1: I was like, man, it meant more than I thought

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Speaker 1: because it was just a man I met in passing

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Speaker 1: through kind of a professional um, you know, circumstance, and

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Speaker 1: it's not like we I went to his house and

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Speaker 1: you know, hung out with him every weekend. But when

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Speaker 1: he died, I'm like, man, there's a there's a message

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Speaker 1: in his life that that kind of ends here unless

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Speaker 1: we keep talking about it. So I think the weight

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Speaker 1: of that it got me a little bit emotional. Joe

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Speaker 1: a little bit more. I get that I got emotional

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Speaker 1: and I never even met him. But but like you said,

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Speaker 1: I think his legacy, his teachings will live on through

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Speaker 1: people like you who have had those conversations with him,

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Speaker 1: and you know, continue to to push his ideologies and

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Speaker 1: and share it with with the public. Yes, so well,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the show, we're gonna do a

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Speaker 1: little outro and then we'll play our favorite clip from

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Speaker 1: his appearance on the show, which is him telling the

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Speaker 1: story of generations in the womb of time and version

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Speaker 1: of him running into a father and two sons on

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Speaker 1: the mountain. It's a beautiful story and invokes some tears

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Speaker 1: from Jim at the time, and so hopefully you guys

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Speaker 1: can all listen to that after we hear from Dr

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Speaker 1: James Tantillo on hunting ethics and reflect a little bit

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Speaker 1: as we are right now. Um, but we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: to New Zealand country that I love, place that I love,

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Speaker 1: great place. Never been there, but I think it's a

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Speaker 1: great place. That's I mean, I'm hoping you go Hope

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Speaker 1: at Peterson's Hunting Gig. Attention. If Mike scoby' is listening

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Speaker 1: right now, David Draper, if you're listening right now, all

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Speaker 1: Joe's new bosses sent him to New Zealand, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say no. It's a wonderful place. It's one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite places in the world. So I'm gonna I want

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Speaker 1: to address this New Zealand tar calling issue and in

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Speaker 1: a way that I'm not even going to address the

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Speaker 1: actual issue at all. I like that. See if it

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Speaker 1: works in advertently address something, you know, you'll like it.

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Speaker 1: Here's here's what I want to say. We are going

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Speaker 1: to I am going to continue to think about who

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Speaker 1: I can have on how we can dive into this topic.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know it has nuance. I know that

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Speaker 1: it has levels and layers that I'm not aware of.

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Speaker 1: I don't live there. I've visited their three times. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've shot one tar. Um. I was a part of

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Speaker 1: a contest to send me there to hunt tar with

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Speaker 1: hopefully one of you here next year if once once

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Speaker 1: these code restrictions die down. Um, that's the that's my

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Speaker 1: experience with the animal in the place. And I was

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Speaker 1: telling Joe earlier, I feel like I'm a proponent of

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Speaker 1: of more game animals and more places, and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the general way I look at it. But there's

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Speaker 1: a complexity to the situation in New Zealand that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to miss. Now, all the hunters that I know,

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Speaker 1: all the outfitters, all the guides, the Tar Foundation, everybody

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Speaker 1: down in New Zealand that has written in and it's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of you. So I will give you

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Speaker 1: all the credit in the world for feeling very passionate

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Speaker 1: about this, and I promise so I'm not rejecting your

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Speaker 1: passion or rejecting the need to talk about this. But

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Speaker 1: what I am saying is I do I do not

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Speaker 1: desire to get caught up in one way of thinking

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Speaker 1: or desire to just repeat one side of the issue.

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Speaker 1: So there seems to be Joe some speed with which

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Speaker 1: we should have talked about this, because I think we've

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Speaker 1: missed the vote already on the toll the tar coal proposal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they accepted the proposal, so I don't I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not acenture what that means again, but h but it

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Speaker 1: has been accepted. But I would say in general, I

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Speaker 1: want there to be tar on those mountains. There is

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Speaker 1: there is some some very apt comparisons to what's happening

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Speaker 1: in the Olympian National Park with the goat call this year, um,

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Speaker 1: which we can talk about as well. I want to

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Speaker 1: craft a whole episode about this. I think I struggled

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Speaker 1: to think whether this isn't this is a national issue,

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Speaker 1: This is an issue for us because it's in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: But I thought about and I thought about it. I

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Speaker 1: believe it is, but I want to make a concerted

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Speaker 1: effort to understand it and to present all sides of

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Speaker 1: it and then make comparisons to what we know in

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Speaker 1: the States. So this is my way of saying, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, I'm looking at it. I want to

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Speaker 1: know more. I want to talk to the people that

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Speaker 1: are doing the work on the ground, and I want

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Speaker 1: there to be tar New Zealand And, because it seems

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Speaker 1: like the hunters in New Zealand want that to UM.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to just travel there, pay some money

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Speaker 1: and kill one and come back and not care. All

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Speaker 1: of that is to say, like I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, we will talk about it. UM. I am

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Speaker 1: sorry if if UM as an advocate, I might fall

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Speaker 1: short in this case. I do want to advocate for this,

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Speaker 1: but man, I can't. I don't want to find myself

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Speaker 1: in a situation where, um, I've spoke too soon, or

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Speaker 1: I just paired to what someone else wanted me to say.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's the danger. Maybe I'm wrong, Joe, but

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm thinking right now. No, I think that's

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Speaker 1: a great point that that kind of goes along with

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Speaker 1: what I said earlier. You know, if you don't have

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Speaker 1: much to bring to the converse station at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I don't have anything to this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I can listen to other people talking

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Speaker 1: and repeat what they said, or have someone on and

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Speaker 1: I know what the outcome is going to be in

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Speaker 1: terms of what we're asking people to do. UM. So

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Speaker 1: it's just I would just say, rather than explain everything.

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Speaker 1: I felt uncomfortable with jumping on board and immediately saying

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Speaker 1: you go sign this petition, go do this, go act now.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel uncomfortable talking about the Great American Outdoors

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Speaker 1: Act because I've I've studied it, I understand it, and

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Speaker 1: I know what I'm around colleagues who helped me understand

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Speaker 1: it every day, so I don't feel generally inclined to

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Speaker 1: wait on that one. I feel like I know what's

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Speaker 1: going on in this case. Well, that's the good thing

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Speaker 1: about putting together a show for it, doing the research,

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Speaker 1: getting people talking to the people on the ground, doing that,

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Speaker 1: really understanding it. It's kind of our duty as hunters

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Speaker 1: and controvationists who care about game animals everywhere, not just

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Speaker 1: in the US. Like that's yeah, people who care about

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Speaker 1: conservation and like you said, you're a proponent for more

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Speaker 1: game animals everywhere. Yeah, I mean I love hunting TAR

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Speaker 1: and I will if I get a chance to do

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Speaker 1: it again this next year, I will do it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there's no situation and in terms of wildlife management

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Speaker 1: on the scale that we're talking about with in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: um that's not complex and doesn't have things that need

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Speaker 1: to be knocked down and explored a little bit. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we'll hope to do in the future. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk to as many people I want to talk to us.

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Speaker 1: So if you have an opinion or someone you think

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Speaker 1: we should talk to like this about this issue, the

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Tar call that can can help shape a

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Speaker 1: good perspective and a good presentation, then then shoot shoot

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Speaker 1: us a note t see at the media dot com

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about it man, and we'll explore it,

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Speaker 1: and we will find a way to kind of include

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Speaker 1: that in the conversation that we're gonna have your coming up.

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Speaker 1: And again, apologies for the lack of time in this

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Speaker 1: New Zealand hunting community. I know there was you know,

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Speaker 1: people were asking that's just where I landed on it,

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Speaker 1: and you, uh, We're gonna learn something from this. And

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Speaker 1: I hope hopefully they don't kill all the tar in

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Speaker 1: the national parks over there. Hopefully not man, that'd be awful.

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Speaker 1: They're not gonna eat them if they kill them. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of like the goat coal here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess we say we'll talk about in the whatever

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Speaker 1: episode we get this too, but we we applied Joe

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Speaker 1: and I and Sam Longer and can I just say,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of glad we didn't go because I like

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Speaker 1: I wanted to just to fully understand it, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time knowing that I would have had to

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Speaker 1: pretty much shoot every goat, Nanny, Nanny's kids, billies, whatever, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, So just just for clarity, there was

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I don't want to say similar,

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Speaker 1: but as similar in an act thing in an Olympic

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Speaker 1: National park, they're going to call all of the goats

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Speaker 1: out of that national and we and then you could

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Speaker 1: put in to apply to be one of the agent

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Speaker 1: the calling agents. I guess you would say, um, And

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Speaker 1: we went through, we had to fill out this huge form.

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Speaker 1: It was really interesting interaction. It was really interesting interaction. Again,

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Speaker 1: what you're gonna hear from Dr James Tantillo coming up

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Speaker 1: from Jim Tantillo is hunting. What he told us just

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Speaker 1: a seemingly normal story about hunting on a winery, a

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Speaker 1: friend's vineyard, and it was a call operation, and a

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Speaker 1: doe walked by with two fonts and he normally, it's

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Speaker 1: not going to shoot that. And the first time it

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Speaker 1: walked by, he passed on this stone two fonds and

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Speaker 1: then that evening thought to himself, well, I'm here to

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Speaker 1: call are and I I have an ethical obligation or

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Speaker 1: an obligation to my friends who brought me in here

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Speaker 1: to do this job. And I have an obligation to

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Speaker 1: the to the wildlife, which is is kind of a

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Speaker 1: through line obligation. I always have it. And then uh,

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Speaker 1: he said, well I thought about He said, well, if

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Speaker 1: that deer comes by again, I'm gonna shoot it. And

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Speaker 1: it came by two days later and he shot it,

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Speaker 1: and those two funds will die ish any awful death

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Speaker 1: um at his hand. But that's also three off the

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Speaker 1: board in terms of the population in the in the vineyard.

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Speaker 1: And so all of this to say, as we celebrate

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Speaker 1: Jim Posewits, as we talk about hunting, ethics. All of

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Speaker 1: this to say, the point that Jim makes and we

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Speaker 1: made in the show that you'll in the interview that

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Speaker 1: will here is that hunting is malleable. It changes no

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Speaker 1: matter what. It's not just one thing, it's not my opic.

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Speaker 1: It changes no matter the context in your own perspective

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Speaker 1: and what you bring to it. So as we jump

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Speaker 1: into that conversation, I want to just make that clear

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Speaker 1: that that that's something that's in New Zealand in Olympian

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Speaker 1: National Park and some dudes vineyard out east, like those

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Speaker 1: things are happening all the time. So all that's why

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Speaker 1: this stuff is all connected, So that all makes sense,

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Speaker 1: Joe or am I just rambling? Though I thought it

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Speaker 1: was great. I usually like having fun in these openings,

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Speaker 1: but now just not feel I'm just feeling like this

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Speaker 1: is a time for it's a heavy day. The day

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Speaker 1: it's a heavy day. So, UM, I will remind all

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Speaker 1: of you the Great American Outdoors that act contest is

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Speaker 1: still going on. UM. We've had some good entries, you

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Speaker 1: got a couple of poems, some good photos. UM, not

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Speaker 1: as many as i'd like though, So by next week

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Speaker 1: I'd like all of you to go out find a

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Speaker 1: piece of property that was impacted that got funds by

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Speaker 1: the Lana Water Conservation fund That you can go to

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Speaker 1: Lana Water Conservation Funds Coalitions website and then you can

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Speaker 1: find places around you you can go there, recreate, have

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Speaker 1: a good time, take a photo, make a video, send

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Speaker 1: it to us, make us laugh, and we'll give you

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Speaker 1: some cool prizes, including a first Light Vortex and Nemo prizes,

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Speaker 1: three separate ones. So I'm counting you guys to put

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Speaker 1: in some good entries. If we need to extend the contest,

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Speaker 1: we will extend the contest. But I want some good

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Speaker 1: entries to to make us laugh, to give you a

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Speaker 1: chance to go out and do those things. So and

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Speaker 1: it really shouldn't be that hard to go find something. Nope,

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Speaker 1: it's not. At Let's just say you can't find one,

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Speaker 1: just go somewhere and reenact like you were at one.

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Speaker 1: I don't really care at this point. This is the

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Speaker 1: something that drives me, like you drop pictures of Phil

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Speaker 1: makes me happy. You go out. You go out and

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Speaker 1: make a poem or make a music video, or take

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Speaker 1: a cool photo. Um at a at a BLM or

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Speaker 1: some BLM property or some pool or some park it's

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Speaker 1: gonna make me feel good, so please go and do

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Speaker 1: that in emails at th HC at the Media dot

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Speaker 1: Com th HC at the Media dot Com. I think

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Speaker 1: that's it, Joe. I think it's all I have to

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Speaker 1: say for this this part. I think it was a

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Speaker 1: good intro. Yeah, I think we did pretty good. Um.

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Speaker 1: If not, we'll do better next time. And and you know,

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Speaker 1: Mr Tantillo will take it from here. You'll like it.

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Speaker 1: James Tantillo, Hunting Ethics, episode one thirty three. I got

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Speaker 1: that down now here. He is all the way from Cornell, Jim.

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Speaker 1: How are you, sir? Real good? It's real good. How

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Speaker 1: are things in the East Coast right now? Pretty hot?

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Speaker 1: We're heading heading into July with a warm stretch, so

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Speaker 1: nice to be inside podcasting with they're conditioning on. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I saw my family were complaining about heat back

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Speaker 1: there while we're you know, frolicking in the mountains of

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Speaker 1: Montana at cool seven or five. I know, I know

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Speaker 1: how that goes. What's what's the what's these last few

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Speaker 1: months been? Like? I know we checked in in January. Um,

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Speaker 1: and as I was telling you, probably the email, we

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Speaker 1: had a lot of listener response people love the conversation,

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Speaker 1: and I know you and I both felt like we

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Speaker 1: didn't quite get into the stickiness of some of these things. Um.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into any of that, how how's been,

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Speaker 1: how's the quarantine been, how's teaching been? What? What's what's

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Speaker 1: life been like since shutdown? Are our team's fine teaching?

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Speaker 1: Halfway through the semester we got sent home and I

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Speaker 1: taught half the semester from my tutor in upstairs bedroom.

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Speaker 1: But it went well. And right now the universe is

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what they're gonna do in the fall.

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Speaker 1: But on the home front, we've got a new bird dog.

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Speaker 1: We got a new uh, two year old German short

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Speaker 1: hair pointer who's a litter made of our own two

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Speaker 1: year old female and the two of them together are

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Speaker 1: gonna be dying like this ball. We're really looking forward

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Speaker 1: to hunting on this fall. Gsps are becoming a thing. Huh.

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Speaker 1: They're popular. I always swore we'd never have a g SP.

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Speaker 1: I always had English setters. I'm an English setter guy.

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Speaker 1: That's the one true correct way to hunt is with

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Speaker 1: an English center and a double gun, preferably a Parker.

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Speaker 1: You know all that sixty engage. But these thinks you

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Speaker 1: short hair pointers, they're pretty They're they're pretty fun. I

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Speaker 1: gotta say I've never hunted behind one and had a

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Speaker 1: bad time for that is that is for sure. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear you're still teaching and still thinking

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Speaker 1: about hunting, because I sure him. Yeah, Um, before get

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Speaker 1: into some of these ethical conversations that that folks so enjoy. Um.

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Speaker 1: I know we spoke before this that you had a

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Speaker 1: relationship with Jim Pozziwits, who passed away just a few

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Speaker 1: days ago, and I was glad that on Friday. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was glad that we had this. We had this

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Speaker 1: call set up prior to to to learning about his passing.

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Speaker 1: But I'm glad that we get to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about him with you because I know you were

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Speaker 1: part of Oriyan the Hunter's Institute and had a relationship

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Speaker 1: with him for for decades. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: take a little time to speak about you know, how

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Speaker 1: you came to know him and what you thought of Jim. Sure. Sure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: My relationship with Jim dates back to I believe the

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Speaker 1: late nineties. I think Ryan and Jim had put together

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Speaker 1: this three week course on the history philosophy and ethics

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Speaker 1: of hunting at Montana what is it Montana State there

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Speaker 1: in Bozeman, and he actually cared for my to wish

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Speaker 1: him for that course. So I went out there and

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Speaker 1: and met you know, people like Mary Stang and Claude Evans,

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Speaker 1: Ken Bear to Teras Odi and others. And I was

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Speaker 1: just a real formative experience for me to be immersed

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Speaker 1: in that topic about the history and philosophy of the hunt.

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Speaker 1: And uh, it was at a time when I was

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Speaker 1: fishing around for a new PhD topic, you know, and

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Speaker 1: and that's what I settled on. That's what I ended

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Speaker 1: up writing my dissertation on, was the philosophy hunting. So really,

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Speaker 1: Jim is is all right in there. I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: a tremendous inspiration, tremendous sense of humor, close personal friend,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very very sad that he's gone. But he

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Speaker 1: lived a very good life, you know, a well lived life,

425
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: absolutely a huge impact. I'm extremely jealous of you being

426
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: in a room with the Lexa, Jim Pozwits and Ted

427
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: Carosodi to talk about the philosophies of hunting and ethics.

428
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: It was it was great. Yeah, yeah, I mean well,

429
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna play some of past interviews with Jim here

430
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: coming up, and and some of the some of the

431
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: things that we enjoyed about his philosophy. I mean, what

432
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: do you in terms of hunting ethics, which we'll talk about,

433
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: and and the philosophy which you mentioned, What does Jim

434
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: mean for you know, what legacy does he leave behind

435
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: for all of that? Well, I think the focus on

436
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: fair chase as debatable or problematic a concept despair chase

437
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: can be in certain context. You know, he really brought

438
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: that sort of whole discussion back into the into the

439
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: into the forefront and and really you know, talking about

440
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: people's individual ethical behavior, and you know, echoes of Leopold

441
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: who said, you know how you hunt? You know, you're

442
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: out there with no audience, you know, and you're in

443
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere, and you're making choices that you

444
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: know nobody's gonna see. And it's all up to you

445
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: and your character and your sense of right and wrong

446
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: or the right and wrong way to hunt. And uh,

447
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: you know, I think and and you know, beyond fair

448
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: chase was printed, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands

449
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: of copies that went into the hands of under education

450
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: students in an incredible number of the states. You know something,

451
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: last I looked at something like eight hundred thousand copies

452
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: of that little book had been had been printed and distributed,

453
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 1: and that was all Jim. That was all O Ryan.

454
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: So Ryan was Jim and Jim was Orion. Yeah, it's

455
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: a great loss, but as you said, he leaves behind,

456
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, more than what any of us could hope

457
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: to leave behind in terms of of hunting in our community,

458
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: and and sets up many of the conversation we're gonna

459
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: have today even and our connection in lots of ways,

460
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: and so Um, as I said, as I've probably said

461
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: before on our show, I felt that, you know, my

462
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: brief relationship with him was was definitely just wanting to

463
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: hear his stories, but he also wasn't scared too to

464
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: disagree and to give his points. And and I think

465
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: he enjoyed parts of that with me, a young a

466
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: young whipper snapper with a bunch of ethical ideas. I

467
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: think he very much enjoyed challenging me, um and pushing me,

468
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: pushing my limits. Well, thanks for just you know, thanks

469
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: for talking about that a little bit, and I'm glad

470
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: we can now kind of spin into talking about ethics,

471
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: which is what Um, Jim spent most of his life

472
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: thinking about and working on and promoting, like you said,

473
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: through hunter education and and and everything he did later on. Um,

474
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: when I looked at I was looking at you know,

475
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: O'Ryan the other night, and just kind of reading and

476
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: thinking about how you kind of set up the conversation

477
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: of addicts. We had a lot of discussion last time

478
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: in January. UM, you know about hunting as a sacred

479
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: art and some of the more deeper philosophical thoughts about hunting.

480
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: But then there then you kind of run into fair

481
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: chase when you start as you as you mentioned that

482
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: it can be problematic. Um. We know, you know, most

483
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: folks probably know the actual definition that could certainly read

484
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: it word for word. But how how would you you know,

485
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: as you sit in your chair today in think about

486
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: defining fair chase for those listening, Well, see right there,

487
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: you're off on the wrong foot. All due respect, you know,

488
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that fair chase can be quote unquote defined.

489
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: You know, philosophers sometimes speak of open concepts, and you

490
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: know what you have to do is sort of stipulate

491
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: what you mean by a term like fair chase. And

492
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, here's where some of my discussions with positis.

493
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: You you you talk about debate, honest debate. He loved debate.

494
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: You know, fair chaise to him was almost entirely an

495
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: ethical concern. And to me, my decades long conversation with

496
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: Jim tried to gently steer him in the direction of

497
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: understanding that a lot of what we refer to his

498
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: fair chase are really aesthetic concerns. You know, they have

499
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: to do with how we perceive the right and the

500
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: wrong way to kill animal. You know, do you have

501
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: to kill a deer within a hundred yards or is

502
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: long distance shooting unethical? You know, the deer, if honestly

503
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: killed and just you know, falls over, doesn't care whether

504
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: it's killed within a hundred yards or within a thousand

505
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: yards or within two thousand yards. You know, so that's

506
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:27,239
Speaker 1: a that's a sort of uh stylistic preference, right, Some

507
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: people want to sneak up on a deer, they want

508
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: to go to archery, or you know those guys with

509
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: the spears that stand in the tree stands and spear

510
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: the deer straight down. You know, that's the ultimate sort

511
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: of challenge. Um. But again, those are more like artistic

512
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: preferences or esthetic preferences rather than uh, ethical issues. The

513
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: only ethical issue is the clean, quick kill. Really, that

514
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: and hunting safely and a general respect for the law. Really,

515
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: I think that's where hunting ethics sort of begins and ends,

516
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: and the rest of it. These questions of technique, these

517
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: questions of technology, stickbow versus recur versus compound bow versus crossbow,

518
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: you know, those are all questions of preference, personal preference. Yeah,

519
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: I think if if you know, we could have probably

520
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: we agree. I agree with you absolutely on that, and

521
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: I think that um and I've talked about that with

522
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: Jim as well over some conversations about exactly what are

523
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: we talking about here. We have we have the way

524
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: that we hunt and then the way that we kill,

525
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: and there's less tangible there's less tangible aspects in terms

526
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: of ethics in the hunting because it's just an act um.

527
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: But the killing is where the ethics matters, because there

528
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: is a tangible effect on the other end. And I've

529
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: had a lot of people not really be able to

530
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: understand that when it comes to say, like personal ethics

531
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: and how you feel and and so it's good to

532
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: hear you say that, because I think that maybe is

533
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: is where fair chase gets gets a bad rap. Do

534
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: you feel like fair chase in and of itself is

535
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: a term that we can continue with. Oh sure, sure,

536
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: because I think fair chase And here's another point of

537
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: disagreement with not just Jim, but the number of people

538
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: who think about hunting fair chase conveys the sense of

539
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: fair play and sportsmanship. Now, it's not fashionable to connect

540
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: hunting with sport any longer. I've had these arguments plenty

541
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: of times with a lot of people. But the idea

542
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: of fair play and giving the prey a sporting chance

543
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: that is crucial to hunting. Right, hunting is not shooting

544
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: a cow with a bazooka through a barred wire fence.

545
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: Right to be hunting, it has to be a challenge.

546
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: And if it gets too easy, this is where sometimes

547
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: hunters will find, you know, after they've killed the twentieth

548
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: year with a rifle, you know, bill switch over to archery,

549
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: or they'll switch to a different technique. And that's to

550
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: maintain the challenge aspect of the activity, because otherwise it

551
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: for a lot of folks will it will fail to

552
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: sustain our interest over the long haul. You know, we

553
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: we want to keep on hunting interesting. Yeah, I mean,

554
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: I know, we We've spoke about this a little last time.

555
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: There's there's admittedly, if any hunter would think about this,

556
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a game theory to hunting, right.

557
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: The part of the appeal as the game, right, and

558
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: so you have to ascribe gamelike qualities to the thing

559
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: that you're doing. Um, and so you're trying to match

560
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: wits with uh you figuratively an opponent. All right. So

561
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: people who criticize or don't like the game analogy will say, well,

562
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: the deer never consented to play the game, you know,

563
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: like the person sitting across the board from you playing Monopoly.

564
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: But figuratively, it makes all the sense in the world

565
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: to speak of trying to match one's wits with whatever

566
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: critter you are trying to pursue. And again that's what

567
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: makes it interesting. Yeah. Do you think that the acknowledge

568
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: if we could acknowledge that, because I certainly have acknowledged that,

569
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: Like a part of my attraction is that the game

570
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: like quality. If we could acknowledge that, as hunters, things

571
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: would be a little bit easier. We could rationalize our

572
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: actions a little bit, a little bit more simply, well, hunters,

573
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: both their explanations of hunting and then their justifications and

574
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: their attempted justifications, would be a lot more honest, because

575
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: too often in the past, maybe not so much as

576
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: as as much anymore, but you know, there has been

577
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: this tendency of saying, well, we hunt for food, therefore

578
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: it's moral. Hunting is moral. And you know, if it

579
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: was only about food, we'd go down to the grocery

580
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: store and be done with it. Get you know, beef

581
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: and shrink, gripped um and no risk of crippling, loss

582
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: or wounding an animal that crawls off and dies six

583
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: weeks later. You know, uh, you know again we we

584
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: we hunt for the hunt. You know, meat is a

585
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: sort of happy by product of our efforts, but meat

586
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: is not the sole objective. Yeah, and that's you know,

587
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: hunt to have hunted. Right. The the idea that the

588
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: byproducts are the things that um that become the justification, right,

589
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: like the adventure becomes the justification for going. But it's

590
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: only a byproduct of the activity, right, the enjoyment of

591
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: the activity. Really if and you can't single out one

592
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: purpose versus other purposes. I mean, it's a multi fascinating

593
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: activity that's complex. That's why people enjoy it. But primarily

594
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: it's the enjoyment that motivates people who else, you know,

595
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, wants to get up at three in the

596
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: morning and slept their decoys and waiters out to a

597
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: blind before dark and you know, in in by deep

598
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: mud and silt and and say ah, yeah, I'm having

599
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: all of a time. You know, yes, you are enjoying

600
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: that on some level, even though it's you know, pouring

601
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: rain and you know the mosquitoes are by union, you know,

602
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: So the enjoyment is not just a sort of happy,

603
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: heatonistic you know. Uh, it's not a great time, but

604
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: it's a it's a much deeper or nuanced, complex type

605
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: of deep satisfaction. Uh. Something that strikes me a lot

606
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: about about that part of the conversation is there's a

607
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: there's been a shift for me, I would say for

608
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: me personally and I know for people around me. Um,

609
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: there's the intrinsic value of hunting the thing you're you're

610
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: doing just because it feels good to you and that

611
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: you are getting something from it, and then the extrinsic

612
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: value of like, what do people are gonna think of this?

613
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: What's this? What's this do for me? And as a

614
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: guy who has a podcast in the business and has

615
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: a social media account, that the mixing of those two

616
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: things is torturous for me. And I know that's a

617
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: lot of people have mentioned this to me. Have you

618
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: thought a little bit about how social media and in

619
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: media and of any kind TV shows, podcasts have kind

620
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: of mixed these things together where we're, you know, we're

621
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: addicted to kind of showing ourselves hunting, and it maybe

622
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: rips away a little bit of intrinsic pleasure. I think

623
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: this is a risk for anyone who tries to turn

624
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: you know what it essence is their avocation to their vocation,

625
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: their job, you know. And it's one thing to do

626
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: something because you love it, right, which is the root

627
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: of the term amateur. Right when you're an amateur cellist

628
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: or you're an amateur softball player, an amateur hunter, you're

629
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: doing it just for the love. The root is more

630
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: I guess of amateur. And then you turn it into

631
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: something where you're gonna make money at it, and all

632
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden it becomes a business and your motivations

633
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: become profit, your motivations become Can I get the kill

634
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: on camera? Uh? You know, And and you know, I

635
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: think that does taint the experience a little bit. You know.

636
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: I think folks that I know that are in the

637
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: outdoor media care aus oity. You know. I think you know,

638
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: if you were to ask him, you probably admit to that,

639
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: you know, or Randy Newburg or others. Uh, you know,

640
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: if if you press them a little bit deep down,

641
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: I think I wouldn't be surprised if they felt some

642
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, I'm not I've not had that conversation. Man,

643
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: you'd be interesting to do at And you know, I

644
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: work at a company where that's the goal of some Um,

645
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: some of the younger individuals that walk through the door

646
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: or people out there they're listening, they might think they

647
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: want to work here, um, and that it's their dream

648
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: to have a Netflix television program where they get to

649
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: go hunting. Um. It's not quite as simple as that.

650
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: And I felt the tings. I felt the tinge of

651
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: going out and like, well, if I don't get a

652
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: turkey this year, I won't have anything to post on

653
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: social media and or right about and then I'm not

654
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: doing my job, like, well, that sucks because failure at

655
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: my job shouldn't be included in my hunting experience. But

656
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: it is right because you know, it's what they say

657
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: about fishing that you know, even a day without fish

658
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: is a good day fishing. You know, you should feel

659
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: that way about hunting every day year out in the field,

660
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: whether you come home with something or empty handed, that

661
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: was a day that you didn't spend, you know, chain

662
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: to your desk. So uh. And and you know, here's

663
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: where you get into the various theories about stages of hunters.

664
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: You know, when hunters are young, you know, generally speaking,

665
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: they have trigger rich and they want to kill. And

666
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: then as they make sure and get older, their list

667
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: concertain about you know, filling the bag or the kill

668
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: and are more interested in technique. And then some hunters

669
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: when they get to the end of their hunting career,

670
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: they rarely pulled the trigger uh, because they're they're simply

671
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: enjoying the moment. Yeah, did you That's something I've run

672
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: into a lot here. My friend Wyman menzer Um has

673
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: been on the podcast a few times and he's a

674
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: great photographer in the state of Texas and came up

675
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: as a trapper um trapping bobcats and coyotes and in

676
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: the big empty in northern northern central Texas, and he

677
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: had probably killed more coyotes than just about anyone um.

678
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: And in his later years he reflects upon the regret

679
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: of some of those kills and has kind of transformed

680
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: into only a photographer and an appreciator of the wildlife.

681
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: And he's not the only person I've heard that from.

682
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: And so I get a little bit worried about, well,

683
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: where am I going to go in my life? Am

684
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: I going to think back on this time in thirty

685
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: years and regret some of the killing I've done, or

686
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: or like? Is that just a natural progression? As you mentioned,

687
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: have you how would you articulate those kind of strikes. Yeah,

688
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: I think it can be a natural progression for some people.

689
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: I don't think these are absolute. You know, we're not

690
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: describing what happens to everybody. I mean, I know hunters

691
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: who quite happily kill animals up to the day they die.

692
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: And and I know hunters who are in their fifties

693
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: who never got rid of the trigger, which they're still

694
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: about filling the bag limits And you know those are

695
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 1: guys I don't tend to prefer to want to hunt

696
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: with sometimes. Um, but you know, I think every individual

697
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: deals with that differently. But it's but it's not uncommon

698
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: for somebody as they get older to not be so

699
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: eager to to pull the trigger. You know, Ida hunted

700
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: last year probably every day of a three week season.

701
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: I saw a deer every single day. And today's the

702
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: deer just walked by and I not today. I just

703
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: don't feel like gutting a deer today. I don't feel

704
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: like killing this deer today. I see, you know, a

705
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: six pointer and say, well, maybe I got two weeks left.

706
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait for an eight point or a ten pointer.

707
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: And you know, all kinds of different factors, uh, you know,

708
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: factor in and and you know, I think you have

709
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: to allow people the freedom to to sort of, you know,

710
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: pursue hunting the way they want to pursue hunting. Yeah,

711
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: And that maybe that's the thing that like underlines most

712
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about here, and most of what

713
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: you've thought about for a long time, and most of

714
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: the things that kind of strike me about fair chase

715
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: and hunting ethics and philosophies is like I'm I'm I'm

716
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: I've become in the last few years, UM, big on

717
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: just personal responsibility and and being an understanding like I

718
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: have to do this right based on, of course, what

719
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: I believe in my experiences and my set of influences. UM.

720
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: And it's hard to control what other people are doing

721
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: based on, you know, my certain set of things that

722
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: have happened to me in my perspective, UM. And that's

723
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: maybe you know, at some point where this conversation has

724
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: hasn't gone or maybe hasn't gone there enough. It was

725
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: that a big part of how you you know, when

726
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: you thought of talking with Jim and others, how that

727
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: came to be this personal responsibility, like you have to

728
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: know what's right for you and you have to follow

729
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: the law. And that's pretty much what it is, right.

730
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: You know. I had some conversations with other members of

731
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: the Iryan board years ago who you know, had fairly

732
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna use a term that sounds negative,

733
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: but I don't mean it this way. But they were

734
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: somewhat absolutist in their conception of the right way and

735
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: the wrong way to hunt. And I would come back

736
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: to context and I would say, you know, hunter A

737
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: maybe facing a decision that on the surface looks the

738
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: same as the decision facing hunter B. But the context

739
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: is totally different, and you have to allow for those

740
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 1: two hunters to make different decisions, and that's on them.

741
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: You can't impose a rule from the top down to

742
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: to cover both hunters experience. And so you mentioned kyle hunting, right,

743
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: varmin hunting in general, oil, If you don't eat what

744
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: you hunt, what business do you have killing kyotes or

745
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: woodchucks or prairie dogs. Now, for a hunter whose only

746
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: motivation or whose motivation is largely meat, they don't understand

747
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: varmint hunting, right. But for other people who actually enjoy

748
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: the challenge of shooting kyotes or calling kyotes or woodchucks

749
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: are prairie dogs, you know, meat is not part of

750
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: the context. Right. There are other facets of that activity though,

751
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: that draw those people in and that provide them with

752
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 1: satisfaction and that that deep joy, that enjoyment. Uh. And

753
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, again, I think we have to allow for

754
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: the different experience of uh, different hunters, we you know,

755
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 1: and there you get into the semantic squabbles of well,

756
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: those guys whom shoot kylets, they're not even hunters, you know,

757
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: or their slab hunters. They're not true hunters. And you know,

758
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: all of that I think is a sort of civil

759
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: war that's in the long run, more damaging hunting than

760
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: just letting people have kyote you know, contests or you know,

761
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: that's that's another aspect. Yeah, yeah, I got it. I

762
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: got a very long email the other day from a

763
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: listener who was was had to know my opinion on

764
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: kyote contests, like that was the thing that they had

765
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: to know about and whether or not they were going

766
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: to continue listening to this particular program. Hinged on hinged

767
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: on the whether I agree. And it wasn't like I

768
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to give a nuanced answer. It was like,

769
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: well you know in some context and I was it

770
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: was like a yes or no statement. Um. And that

771
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: hinged the pressure for me, which I don't really didn't

772
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: bother me, and all the pressure was, hey, if you

773
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: answer wrong, then I'm out. Um. I just didn't answer

774
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: at all because I thought, well, that's that's a trap.

775
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: That the trap that I'm not interested in it. But

776
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: that that to your point, it's a big part of it, right,

777
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: that's a big part. I mean you're a you're at

778
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: a university, an Eastern university. UM, you know, kind of

779
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: in the middle of a changing culture, I would say,

780
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: I mean, or at least for sure at this moment

781
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: in time. Uh, there's a cultural cultural war at going

782
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: on where a speech is being examined in a way

783
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: we've not seen before. UM, speeches being really equated to

784
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: violence in some aspects. Do you can you relate that

785
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: to to this conversation and all the way that young

786
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: folks are thinking about morality and how they moved through

787
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: the world. It's more of it, maybe an absolutist way

788
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: of approaching things. Yeah, well, you know you would think so.

789
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: And then hunting has had sort of this overall bad

790
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: reputation in urban circles and suburban circles for decades. But surprisingly,

791
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: and maybe we touched on this the last time we spoke.

792
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: You know, we have a lot of urban kids coming

793
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: to a place like Cornell and they want to learn

794
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: how to hunt and and there some of their motivation

795
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: has to do with the connections to the local bore

796
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: movement and you know, getting your own food and the

797
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: perceived health factor of eating an organically wild deer versus

798
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, a factory farmed uh you know a cow uh.

799
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: So so I don't know. I think right now the

800
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: jury is out on where this particular period of time

801
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in the last six months or year.

802
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't know how that's going to play out in

803
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: the next two or three years. I don't have a

804
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: crystal ball, but you know, at least what I've seen

805
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: in the last you know, a half dozen of years

806
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: or so, I think there's a much more open minded

807
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: uh attitude among young people towards hunting, fishing, maybe even trapping. Yeah, yeah,

808
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: I think so too. I would reflect that as well,

809
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: you know, as much as um many media outlets kind

810
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: of present this certainly, like I said, a culture war.

811
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: Certainly this discord to to a level that I've not

812
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: seen in my young life, but to the level that

813
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: that's presented as kind of this this battle. When I

814
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: think about hunting, and I think of how open people

815
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: are to these discussions, even the one that we're having,

816
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: even the even the one we're having as an entry

817
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: point to hunting or so the thought hunting, Um, I

818
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: only see positives and maybe that's the bubble that I'm in,

819
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: or who knows, but I agree with you. I've I've

820
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: had more people that are open to Hey, let me

821
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: start think about hunting. But first I want to sort

822
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: through my own personal ethics and sort through what I

823
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: think about killing and then and then I'll get to

824
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: it rather than the other way around, which is how

825
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: I experienced it. Right. Do you think that could be

826
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: a you know, generational change. We look back kind of

827
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: on this time, and we look back at how many

828
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 1: adult onset hunters were coming in and how that may

829
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: be changed a little bit of you know, the way

830
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: hunting is represented overall. Possibly, I don't know if it's

831
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: the adult onset which is an awkward phrase, you know,

832
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: maybe come up with a better phrase one of these days.

833
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: I think it's a Actually, I think it's the decline

834
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: in the bilitancy of the animal rights to slash animal

835
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: welfare movement. You know, thirty years ago, when I first

836
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: got started in academia, that was all the rage and

837
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: you know, eighty percent of your undergraduate's coming into a

838
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: place like Cornell and that's all they cared about was

839
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: animal rights. And I think while animal rights and animal

840
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: welfare is still there, it's not you know, in the

841
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 1: foreground and it's not sort of a dominant view. I think, um,

842
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: you know, animal rights and animal welfare sort of victims

843
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: of their own excesses, you know, as philosophy. You know,

844
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: animal rights philosophy really doesn't hold up. You know, it's uh.

845
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: And I think people are not dumb. They they sort

846
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 1: of gradually or eventually figured that out. And and and

847
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: so perhaps that's contributed to the more open minded spirit

848
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: that I sense right now from say students. Yeah, I know,

849
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: we talked about that a little bit last time. I

850
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: I too have kind of I've talked to animal rights

851
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: activists and people that really pride themselves on um getting

852
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: arrested to try to save the save animals and factory farms.

853
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: And I've talked to them, and I've explored the ideas

854
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: with them, and I've sat down and critically thought about

855
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: my own views and how biased I probably am against

856
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: what they think. And it's just logically, objectively, there are

857
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: too many holes in the in the approach, and it's

858
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: such an absolutist way that I just can't get it, man.

859
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: And and in fact, the more that I've looked into it,

860
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: the more I think it's just it's it's completely ridiculous

861
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 1: to be going honest, I mean some of the ways

862
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: it's taken. Yeah, I'm gonna go I'm in an agreement

863
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: with you. You know, for the most part, there are

864
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: some very good philosophers who do animal rights theorizing, but

865
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: by and large they're not the ones that the activists

866
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: are are reading or influenced by anymore. Yeah, I will

867
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: tell you that that I have. There's a gentleman named

868
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: Paul Bascher out of um Where's the Australia, I believe,

869
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: and he runs group Anonymous for the Voiceless and I

870
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: and they came in protest in one of our live

871
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: events last year, and I've got to fall in on on

872
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: got follow on social media and a lot of discussion

873
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: there is. There was one question that they asked, and

874
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: I have to fight. The urge is to unfollow and

875
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: block it out, but I want to hear these things.

876
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: One of the questions they asked. One of the was

877
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: a Q and a session and somebody asked, what do

878
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: I do if my family members continue to eat meat

879
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 1: and and won't listen into my animal rights ideology? And

880
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: the answer from a leader of a pretty large animal

881
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 1: rights activist group was disassociate from your family. Yes, that's

882
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: what he said. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe.

883
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: I just I would never want to collect a group

884
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: of people into an organization of any kind that would

885
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: would tolerate that type of thinking. And that's what they're doing.

886
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: They want people, they want people to that believe that,

887
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: believing it that strongly to be a part of their Yeah,

888
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: and that's a failure of ethics and a failure of character.

889
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: And you know the character problem there is if you

890
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: were to buy into that framework, you know, you just

891
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: that you've lost all sense of proportion about what's important

892
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: in your life. Um, they as animal welfare is important,

893
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: but your family is more important than that. You know.

894
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: Seems fairly uncontroversial as a statement to make. Yeah, yeah,

895
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, that's part of it. I

896
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: think animal rights will never go away, but I don't

897
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: know that it will be as influential as it was

898
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: saying the seventies or eight Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's

899
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: good to hear. Like I said, I've I've I've I've

900
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: found myself wanting to challenge it more, but only just

901
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: challenge it from like a personal level, like this is

902
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: the kind of person you want to be, This is

903
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: the kind of worldview that you'd like to adopt, This

904
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: is the kind of way you want to move through

905
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: the world. You know, I think you'll you'll look back

906
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: years from now and say, man, I wish I wasn't

907
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: as militant. I wish I would have been more reasonable,

908
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: things of that nature. So, UM, well, I think we

909
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: should definitely last time, we got into the conversation as

910
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: we are now, and we forgot to get into the

911
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: sticky hunting debates that that that you mentioned, UH and

912
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: their season. There seemed to be so many of them

913
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: within the world. And I've said this on the show

914
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: before that I've had more just I'll just say about

915
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: flat out hate from the hunting community that I have

916
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: from the anti hunting community, UM over over opinions on things,

917
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: personal preferences on things, um and. So I guess maybe

918
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: before we get into some some of that, I want

919
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: to talk about baiting and want and waste particularly, But

920
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: before we get into that, what you know, what's been

921
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: your experience We've talked about this a little bit before.

922
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: What's been your general experience about how we engage in

923
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: these type of debates within our community. Right well, baiting,

924
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: I was gonna jump on that, because even though I

925
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: just got done saying animal rights has sort of faded

926
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: into the background, animal rights organizations are still a significant

927
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: threat to hunting. So take the Humane Society the United States,

928
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: who has had an active program against baiting in a

929
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: variety of states, and I got involved in the state

930
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: of Maine. UH about fifteen years ago, the hs US

931
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: sponsored a ballot referendum, a ballot initiative to ban baiting

932
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: of bears in Maine as well as hounding bears, to

933
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: use the dogs to pursue bears, and they framed it

934
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: as an animal rights UH initiative. Now, I went up

935
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: and gave a variety of talks the Wildlife Society chapter

936
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: if they're in the nature of conservancy, and I pointed

937
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: out him on other things, the contradiction of their own position.

938
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: You know, if animal welfarees you're concerned. There's probably an

939
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: argument that's been made that when you chase a bear

940
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: in the woods, there are certain stresses to the bear

941
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 1: from being chased, But you can't apply that same logic

942
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: to the pile of jelly donuts. That offends the animal

943
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 1: rights activists in the middle of nowhere where a bear

944
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: comes in, has his nose down in a pile of

945
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: beats or you know, corn or whatever, and the hunter

946
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 1: from a blind thirty feet away can make the choice

947
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: to either shoot or not shoot, aim carefully, take a

948
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: delivering shot at the heart and it callow, goes well,

949
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: the bear falls over right. That's the Dictionary definition of

950
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: a clean, quick chill. So to say, well, this is

951
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: a welfare, is an initiative that we're trying to animal suffering.

952
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: You can't have your cake and eat it too. And

953
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: so I made that argument, you know, like you're describing

954
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: with some of the some of the you kept from

955
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: your own uh listeners. You know, I I got a

956
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: fair amount of that kind of uh you know, keeps

957
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: on my head. Yeah, bating issues fantastic. It's just really interesting.

958
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 1: And that goes for deer, it goes for bear. Just so, yeah,

959
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: it's made more interesting right in the time of c

960
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: w D. And then in the time like I said,

961
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: if you would, if you try to first take baiting

962
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: as a separate issue of the hunting, right, how do

963
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 1: you feel personally, what's your personal what's your personal preference

964
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: in terms of how you interact with animals. I I'd

965
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: love to hear how you think about this, but I

966
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: think many times in a tree stand uh setting where

967
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm sitting still, I I get as much of not

968
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: more enjoyment out of that than than spotting and stalking

969
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: through country. I love them both. It's hard to even

970
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: compare them. But I'm not one of those people that say, well,

971
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: I can't sit still, I want to be moving. I

972
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: really enjoy kind of every aspect of sitting and watching

973
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: and looking and and so I'm not going to use

974
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: that as as part of my personal preference argument around baiting.

975
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: Um is that how you know? I think that's maybe

976
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: the first thing you can say it, like, is it

977
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: your personal preference to sit there and when watch a

978
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: pilot corn Um, It's it's not necessarily it's not necessarily

979
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: a negative for me in terms of my personal feeling

980
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. Here again is where context crucially matters.

981
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: You know, if you're you know, baiting deer, It's one

982
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: thing to make an argument that we should bait deer

983
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: where I live, where there's probably twenty or thirty deer

984
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: per square mile, right, and they just stroll out on

985
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: the lawn and you can just watch the parade all

986
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: day long, Versus up in the Adirondacks, where there's maybe

987
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, a deer every two or three square miles,

988
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: where the use of some sort of attractant allure and

989
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: that's really all fate is. It's a lure. It's akin

990
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: or analogous to decoys. So if you're really against baiting,

991
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: you've got to be against decoys too, if you want

992
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: to be consistent. Um, you know, it makes sense in

993
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 1: the Adirondex at least there's a viable argument that could

994
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: be made in a way that doesn't make sense in

995
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: the context of where I live in you know, downstay

996
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: in the Finger Lakes in the southern tier. So you know,

997
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: those kinds of considerations matter. If you have a health

998
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: concern about c W D c W days, yes, Um,

999
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: that's going to factor into the calculation, right, That's not

1000
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: a calculation that applies to bears. Um. Bears are not

1001
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: like deer. You shoot a deer and in the heart

1002
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 1: and it goes off fifty yards, it's still going to fall,

1003
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: and you follow the blood trail and you find your deer.

1004
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 1: A bear doesn't leave a blood trail. The holes clog

1005
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: up with fat. The bear also doesn't down in fifty yards,

1006
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: It runs three miles away, and so you're left with,

1007
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, the insurmountable challenge of trying to track from

1008
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: most hunters, and the insurmountable challenge of trying to trail

1009
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: an animal that doesn't leave a blood trail. So, you know,

1010
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: the context of bear hunting is very different than deer hunting,

1011
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: and so there's quite a very good fair chase argument

1012
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: to be made for baiting bears and taking that almost

1013
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: guaranteed shot at close range, you know, for the welfare

1014
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: of the bearman. If you're gonna shoot a bear, you

1015
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: might as well shoot it well, right, And you know

1016
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 1: when we pushed hs US in Maine, Well, well it's

1017
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: your alternative. Well, we want no bait. You're gonna have

1018
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: to stalk them, and you're gonna have to, you know,

1019
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: shoot the bears, you know, as you're chasing them in

1020
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: the woods. Well, now you're talking about a hundred yards

1021
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: plus shot at at a running bear, and you know,

1022
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: like you can guarantee, like you can guarantee a shot

1023
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: heart that's gonna kill it. Not you know, what you've

1024
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: just done is created a situation where you've increased your

1025
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: crippling loss of bears, you know, by an order attempt.

1026
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's just like so there's no logic sometimes

1027
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: to those kinds of arguments. And and here's where even

1028
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: bringing fair Chase into the conversation. You know, in Maine,

1029
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: what we found you had hunters who didn't hunt bears

1030
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: pointing their fingers at other hunters saying, well, we don't

1031
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: like bear hunting, we don't like bear baiting, so let's

1032
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: ban the way you hunt, right, And and they're hunters

1033
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: where their own worst enemies, you know, rather than hunters

1034
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: being tolerant of other hunters personal preferences and and and

1035
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: preferred styles of hunting and forms of hunting. You know,

1036
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: hunters got enlisted by hs US to UH to eliminate baiting.

1037
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: And and that's the divide and conquer strategy that hs

1038
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:00,399
Speaker 1: UPS and other animal rights organizations are quite effective at doing. Yeah,

1039
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's a great point. Is illustrative of of

1040
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: the the larger issue that I was, you know bringing

1041
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: up there, is that that we are we are generally

1042
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: more apt to argue with each other about some of

1043
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: these things than we are to you know, band together

1044
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: and to fight against someone who's trying to take one

1045
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: small thing away. Again, back to the coyote contest reference, like, well,

1046
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: if you're intokyote, I'm not gonna listen to you. If

1047
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: you are. If you aren't, then we're friends. They're like, well,

1048
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm not the more. When I started this podcast, I

1049
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: probably had more hardened views of some of these ethical

1050
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: situations and some of the fair chase conversation. Now I've

1051
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: softened them because I do. I have learned more, I've

1052
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,919
Speaker 1: understood more context, and I realized that that it's that's

1053
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: not a great way to move through the world, let

1054
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: alone the hunting community, is to say like, hey, this

1055
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: is what you must adopt to, you know, to to

1056
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: be part of this doctrine. It's it's really that's almost

1057
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: an impossible thing to do, especially on baiting. On the

1058
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: on the version of baiting. Um, you know, the disease

1059
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 1: vectors that are happening in a pile of corn, for

1060
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: for deer, are totally different than what's happening for bears.

1061
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: Um not to mention, I right not to mention? Um

1062
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 1: sexy a bear not to mention? Is it a male

1063
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: or female? The joke being like the only way to

1064
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: know is to look through between its legs. That was

1065
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: the point about hounding. You know, arguably, I think hounds

1066
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: for deer probably subject the deer to a greater amount

1067
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: of stress I'm generalizing than hounding a bear. And a

1068
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: bear gets tired of climbs up in the tree. Well,

1069
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: there you go. You look up at the tree, you

1070
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: sex the animal, You judge whether it's a large enough animal,

1071
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: whether you want to pull the trigger or not. I

1072
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: was friends years ago with the Montana biologists who came

1073
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: to our department. He's now a professor at Michigan State

1074
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: UH and he said that, you know, he went along

1075
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: with people mountain lion hunting in Montana, and he said

1076
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,439
Speaker 1: the first time somebody would go, they'd probably shoot the line.

1077
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: The next year they'd go, they'd pass on shooting. And

1078
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: he said it was the closest thing to catch and

1079
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: release hunting that he had ever experienced. You know, what

1080
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: do you have or basically first time lion hunters or

1081
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: bear hunters who you know, they want to experience that,

1082
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: they want to kill it, they want the bear rug

1083
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then the second time they're more about

1084
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: the thrill of the chase and there's that cliche nocean,

1085
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: but it's the hound music, and it's the following the

1086
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: hounds through the woods. Whether you using GPS or horses,

1087
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: are you riding a jeep. You know, it's a uh,

1088
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: it's that total experience. And so there once again we're

1089
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 1: back to that. You know, it's not really about the kill,

1090
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: it's about that total experience. Yeah. I appreciate that too,

1091
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: because I often I've thought here recently that when I

1092
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: say soften on my opinions about these things, I've I've

1093
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 1: generally taken that total experience line of thinking, like, hey,

1094
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: I understand all the ways that this could go down.

1095
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: I am therefore tolerant of as many things as can

1096
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: be done. And as our good friend Clay Nuclem, who

1097
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: who's a bear hunter out of Arkansas, he says, guard

1098
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: the gate if you if they're gonna take away bear baiting,

1099
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: what else can they take away? Um? And given that

1100
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: that's that's a huge part of it. I think, you know,

1101
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett came out here what was it last

1102
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: year in August um and kind of amended a bit

1103
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: of what they talk about with in terms of baiting

1104
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: and said that they feel like when it's legal, it's

1105
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: it's okay, um. But there's a whole lot of hedging

1106
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: in there. You know. It's not like it's good thumbs up,

1107
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: but they appropriate hedging in terms of what you said,

1108
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: which is context. Well, you know, I used to have

1109
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: this argument about pen raised birds or high fence hunting.

1110
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's not for everybody, right, but there are

1111
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: certain there's a certain class hunters for whom you know,

1112
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: shooting a pheasant on a game preserve is one way

1113
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: of bringing in a new hunter, say, or of training

1114
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: a dog. And if you live fifteen miles fifteen hours

1115
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: away from where there are grouse, you know, which is

1116
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: kind of the situation I'm in. You know, uh, pen

1117
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 1: raise pheasants are a sort of cheap substitute, you know,

1118
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: but you have a type of hunting purism where I

1119
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: used to have this argument with David Peterson. I was

1120
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: on a diet with him one time, and he's like, ah,

1121
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: pen raise, you know, there shouldn't be hunting preserved period,

1122
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: flat out wrong. And you know, I tried to make

1123
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: this argument again for context. You know, depending on the context,

1124
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: it might make sense for a particular individual. I myself

1125
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: would never choose to go to a preserve, you know,

1126
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: and pay fifteen dollars a peasant, right, But for other people,

1127
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: that's that's their decision. And I think people ought to

1128
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: have the freedom, you know, to make those choices for themselves.

1129
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: Um So again, I think a lot of these decisions

1130
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: are contextual. Yeah, I mean that goes with a lot

1131
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: of things. A lot I've heard it. I've heard this

1132
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: said a lot, like, you know, questions like this. I

1133
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: think it it goes along to we have like an

1134
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: established people say I have an established tradition. It's my

1135
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: tradition to hunt this way. I liked, my family is

1136
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: always hunted, what over dogs, We've always hunted over bait.

1137
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: And then you're like, well, your tradition is just your context,

1138
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: the tradition that you have in your culture and your community,

1139
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: your region, is just the context in which you began

1140
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: this thing. And so it's you're just comparing rather than

1141
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: arguing about one way or the other, you're really just

1142
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: comparing the way in which you came into this um

1143
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: And so maybe I don't know, maybe there's a way

1144
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: to convince people's like there's less argument about crossbows versus

1145
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: vertical bows. If you just think about it in the

1146
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: way that there's some people are gonna prefer this because

1147
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: they came up doing it, and some people are going

1148
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: to be introduced to hunting via crossbow, which I love.

1149
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: So that makes a tough one well, and sometimes the context,

1150
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, getting the hounding of deer. You know, I

1151
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: used to make this argument in hunter education training seminars

1152
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: that I used to do that you know, geographically, it

1153
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: might make sense to use hounds to hunt deer in

1154
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: the in the South Carolina local country which is just

1155
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: swamped for as far as I can't see, or in

1156
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: Louisiana or Mississippi, know, Falkner Country, because that's the only

1157
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: practicable way to hunt deer, you know, whereas hounding deer

1158
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: where I live, where there is again twenty deer per

1159
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: square mile and they just sort of walk out and

1160
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: beat grasped using a dog would be just stupid, you know.

1161
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: So to to try and get people to think about

1162
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: how different hunting practices originate in different locations, right, geographically,

1163
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: different contexts that I think that's really important because hunters

1164
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: tend to you know, at least in the past, I've

1165
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: had sort of it's my way or the highway kind

1166
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: of uh philosophy. And I think that's pretty damaging to

1167
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: hunters in general. Yeah, I mean, I think crossbows and

1168
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: vertical bows is I think one that you can return to,

1169
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: of course, And you know Pope and Young, Pope and

1170
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: Young still doesn't allow crossbow killed into the and is

1171
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: that a I mean, what's the what's the point of

1172
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: the battle. And I've heard here's where you get back

1173
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 1: to that game analogy, the play game sport. You know,

1174
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 1: Pope and Young whether they like the terminology of sport

1175
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: or game, you know, they don't like or at least

1176
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: they perceived the crossboat to be quote unquote easier. There's

1177
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: less challenge. You know, it's like the stickboat guy says,

1178
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: you gotta have a certain amount of strength to pull

1179
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: that string back versus you know, a bunch of wheels um.

1180
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: And that challenge, that preoccupation with challenge comes out of again,

1181
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: hunting as a type of game or or play activity. Right,

1182
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: we are playing at our primitive sort of ancestry. You know,

1183
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: we're reenacting pioneer times. You know that what Leopold talks

1184
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: about the Daniel Boone values of baby character values. However

1185
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: he puts it, um hunting is atavistic, it's got a

1186
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: primitive ist sort of essence, you know. And uh, I

1187
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: think they're hope and young runs into some of their

1188
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: old internal sort of inconsistencies and contradictions when they when

1189
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: they try to rule on these questions of technology, and

1190
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 1: and those questions of technology bleed into our wildlife systems

1191
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: of managing wildlife, you know, into our model of conservation,

1192
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: whether or not, you know, the argument is oftentimes, well,

1193
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: if we allow crossbows, then we get more hunters. And

1194
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: if we get more hunters, we have more harvests, and

1195
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: we get more harvests, we have less time to hunt

1196
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: or were restricted in some way. While at the same time,

1197
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: on the other side of the mouth, someone can say,

1198
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: the only way to get more Pittman Robertson dollars is

1199
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: to have more hunters. The only way for our our

1200
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, lifestyle to continue is to have more hunters.

1201
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: And so there's there's inherent contradiction in the idea of

1202
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: this argument that people that are both sides are contradicting

1203
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: themselves at the same time, which is like a matrix

1204
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: of ridiculous bullshit. So I've heard this. I've heard this

1205
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 1: multiple times, and um, hopefully Jim you can answer all

1206
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: these questions and bring some sense to us. Well. You know,

1207
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: there again there are political considerations, their management considerations, all

1208
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 1: of winter you know, sort of prudentially uh rooted decisions

1209
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: you know that are sociological, they're not philosophical, and they

1210
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: don't really have to do with hunter individual hunters preferences

1211
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: or motivations. Right. It's like when you want to do

1212
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: a deer cult down near New York City. You could

1213
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: basically hunt deer every day for six months and you

1214
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: could put a hundred fifty deer in your freezer. Right.

1215
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: I guess what. Hunters run out of freezer space, Hunters

1216
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: run out of motivation, Hunters run out of thinking that

1217
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: this is any challenge whatsoever, right, and so sooner or

1218
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: later they're thing activity grinds to a halt. And that's

1219
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: because there's a big difference between a simple cul where

1220
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to stack up the bodies and a hunt

1221
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: that is difficult. Right, Because partly why we do it

1222
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: is because it's difficult. If it were easy, everybody would

1223
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: do it, right. The reason I like hunting rough grouses

1224
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: because they're damn near and possible to hit right, and

1225
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: and that's what that's what I enjoy about it. Yeah,

1226
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: you run into your own contradations, right well, I have

1227
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: my own. Do you have your own? I'm sure right right, yeah,

1228
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: And I've I'm on the side of what I will say, like, hey,

1229
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,439
Speaker 1: I want more hunters, and that's really and I want

1230
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: them to be able to use whatever weapon that they'd like,

1231
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 1: or I want them to be able to use what

1232
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: dog they'd like, or what you know, within the bounds

1233
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: of the law that we've set. But at the same

1234
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, I love hunting. I

1235
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: want to be able to hunt as long as I

1236
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: possibly can. And if ten thousand new crossbow hunters coming

1237
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: to the state of Montana next year, I'll kill a

1238
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 1: bunch of elk during archery season. I'll probably have a

1239
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: shorter archery season at some point. Um. And so those

1240
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 1: are that you just got to pick a value. I

1241
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: would musure I have more new hunters and a shorter

1242
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: archery season. That's the thing I pick. In the reality,

1243
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 1: typically on the crossbow issue, what we find in New

1244
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: York is that way more than half the hunters who

1245
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 1: take up crossbow hunter. They're not new hunters, these aging

1246
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: hunters who for a variety of health really reasons and

1247
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: mobility reasons, you know, crossbow hunting extends their hunting career

1248
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: in additional ten years beyond which they might have otherwise

1249
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: hung up their their bow or their rifles. Why is

1250
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 1: that a bad thing? Here are people who have paid

1251
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: their dues for forty years, paid for a license for

1252
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: forty years, and now all of a sudden you're going

1253
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: to deny them the opportunity to continue hunting into their

1254
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: retirement years because you're a snob about crossbows. That's not fair,

1255
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:58,479
Speaker 1: not ethical. Let's so you know again, I think there's

1256
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: a blind spot again the uh more youthful hunters, shall

1257
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: we say, or go with trigger rich and pride and

1258
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: hubrists and want to do everything the hard way and

1259
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, wait until they get to be old and

1260
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 1: well you say, it's easier to restrict someone's rights or

1261
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: strict someone's you know, in this case hunting, if it's

1262
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: if it's the thing you don't do, it's easier to

1263
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 1: take someone's rights if you don't use those rights, you know,

1264
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: it's easier to take someone's guns. If you don't own guns,

1265
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: it's easier to take somebody's crossbows if you don't use

1266
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: a crossbow, because you don't understand, you know, you to

1267
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: criticize what you don't know about that. It's a lot

1268
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: of its ignorance that that's the hunter's pointing fingers at

1269
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 1: other hunters. They just don't understand. They don't have an empathy. Really. Yeah,

1270
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: And and I think maybe there's a bit of a

1271
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 1: psychological trick that happens when you start talking about tradition

1272
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: you stop. Well, depends on what tradition, and depends on where,

1273
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 1: and depends on what you want the outcome to be.

1274
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: You know, if you don't want there to be crossbows

1275
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: or you want to ban you know, gsps um you

1276
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: talk about the tradition of English setters and how the

1277
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: tradition you don't want to lose, and people shouldn't have

1278
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: these gsps running around all, you know, working birds and

1279
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 1: doing these things, looking at different um with five shots. Yeah.

1280
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 1: So it just it becomes this weird thing that I

1281
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: think Honey has allowed itself to get into the murk

1282
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: on um. That's it's maybe it's hard for us to

1283
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 1: get out of At some level, we certainly have built

1284
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: a club around We've built up the Pope and Young

1285
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: club is like a purist club. It's a club where

1286
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: some people are allowed and some people aren't. That's that's

1287
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:39,560
Speaker 1: certainly problematic. Yeah, I I you know, I don't have

1288
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: much of an opinion on Pope and young I can't

1289
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: decide who is better or worse than you know, Pope

1290
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: and Younger. But I probably should have shut up there.

1291
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 1: I don't mind. I you know, I might as well.

1292
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:53,599
Speaker 1: You might as well just push the on those buttons,

1293
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: because I certainly I think it's just problematic to have

1294
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: position statements on these things that act like they are

1295
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 1: going to reflect everything. It's that's the that's the part

1296
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: where I get off the get off the bus. At

1297
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: some level, organizations like Hope and Younger, Boone and Crockett Um.

1298
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: You know, it's a little bit like what you were

1299
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: talking about the media. You know, there's a there's a

1300
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: self interest for the media to make money and to

1301
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,879
Speaker 1: get clicks and to sell papers, and a non governmental

1302
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 1: organization like Cope and Younger, Boom and Crockets they have

1303
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,759
Speaker 1: a self interest as well. They've got to keep membership

1304
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 1: they've got to keep their budget up, they have to

1305
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: keep in the public eye, and they have to keep

1306
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,879
Speaker 1: their lobbying efforts going. So they have to generate interest

1307
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 1: in what they do, and you know, some of that

1308
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: is not really necessary or essential, you know, when all

1309
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: is said and done, put um and so there, I

1310
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 1: think we need to sort of separate out what some

1311
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: of those from have to do just to stay alive

1312
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: versus what matters to you know, sort of the you know,

1313
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 1: the regular the regular hunter. Yeah. I think that's that's

1314
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: a huge and that's a discussion we can have without

1315
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: saying we have to. We're not canceling Boone and Cracker

1316
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 1: or Pope and Young. We're saying, like, what's the value here. Um,

1317
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: It's okay to have. It's okay to have for the

1318
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: club to say, you're this is what we believe and

1319
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: this is the kind of people that we want to

1320
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: have come in and be part of our club. But

1321
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: it's not the thing that I would argue against is

1322
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: having that be you know, dictated to other hunters like well,

1323
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: the Pope and clubs the way that has to be. Jim,

1324
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: what do you think about Antler point restrictions in terms

1325
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: of you know, how we restrict hunting or how you

1326
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 1: know we how we restrict how people hunt. And then

1327
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: what the outcome generally is there are ecological reasons for

1328
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 1: wanting to do antler restrictions and to encourage hunters to

1329
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,719
Speaker 1: harvest more dose things like that. On the other hand,

1330
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:56,600
Speaker 1: limiting hunters choices to big antler books, uh, you know,

1331
01:11:57,439 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: excludes them from being able to shoot uh, you know,

1332
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 1: a yurling four horn or a spike horn. And there

1333
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,639
Speaker 1: may be hunters whose motivation is purely met who prefer

1334
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:12,320
Speaker 1: that one year old dear. They don't want a three

1335
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: six year old black uh. And so here again, by

1336
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: taking that sort of freedom of choice away from hunter's

1337
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 1: antler restrictions, while well intended, um, you know, can actually

1338
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: have a sort of coercive effect on a on a

1339
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 1: certain segment of the hunting population. Yeah. And I think

1340
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the things we do

1341
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: for you know, for the wildlife populations have those effects

1342
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 1: on the hunting population and vice versa a lot of ways, um,

1343
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: of course. And so when I when I think about

1344
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 1: that specific point, you know, I tried it. This is

1345
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 1: the way that I've I've developed into this and again,

1346
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure you would agree with this or or have

1347
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: an opinion on I've. I started at a certain point

1348
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, how I thought about hunting,

1349
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 1: as we discussed the kind of the stages of hunting.

1350
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,560
Speaker 1: And then, you know, as I've really become entrenched on

1351
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: why I do things, and what really am I after

1352
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,000
Speaker 1: here and what really are the values that I'm pulling

1353
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: out of this and applying to my life, I've I've

1354
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: changed and and become a little bit more thoughtful than

1355
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:20,799
Speaker 1: I was before um and and acknowledging those changes in myself.

1356
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 1: Then I have to try to say, like how do

1357
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: I apply fair chase and philosophy and my own personal ethics,

1358
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 1: and and like what's my own way to approach this?

1359
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:35,679
Speaker 1: And I and quite simply, I've I've developed the idea

1360
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: that I really believe whole hardly in the North American

1361
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 1: model wildlife conservation. I feel that it is really the

1362
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 1: best example, the best expression of what we do and

1363
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: why we do it, and what the benefits are and

1364
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 1: what the structure should be. And then I've kind of

1365
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: started thinking about this idea of fair kill rather than

1366
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 1: fair chase, where I need to start with the fairest kill,

1367
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,680
Speaker 1: because I can affect how fair the death is um

1368
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,680
Speaker 1: with how I act and how I train and what

1369
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: I do. And then maybe I'll address some of the

1370
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: more fair chase issues or some of the more personal

1371
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 1: hunting preferences in the actual act of hunting later. But

1372
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: I have to start with the kill. And so that's

1373
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 1: where I am this today, this moment um right, and

1374
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 1: at that I'm sure that will shift and change in

1375
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 1: the next decades. But is that you know, how what

1376
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: would your reaction be to like that approach. I don't

1377
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: know that I'm leaving fair chase behind altogether, but I

1378
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,040
Speaker 1: certainly am focusing on our model of the conservation and

1379
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: the killing as the things I think I can best

1380
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of articulate. Well here again, this is a I mean,

1381
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: a great topic because individual preferences and your individual choices

1382
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:45,600
Speaker 1: as a hunter will will evolve over time, but societal

1383
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: values will also shift. So you mentioned the North American model,

1384
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, which is premised on a hundred plus year

1385
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: old history of selling licenses and limiting uh, you know,

1386
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: access to game and bag limits and whatnot. That model

1387
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:04,240
Speaker 1: may not work anymore in an era of overabundant prey

1388
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: populations like you know, areas where dear are overpopulated, and

1389
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,679
Speaker 1: when you have declining hunter numbers and declining hunter recruitment,

1390
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, you have a lot of game agencies, particularly

1391
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 1: in the eastern part of the United States, trying to

1392
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:19,639
Speaker 1: figure out, you know, how do we kill all these

1393
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:25,679
Speaker 1: damned dear and privatizing the market for dear meat may

1394
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:29,600
Speaker 1: be one solution that game agencies are going to have

1395
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 1: to pursue, even though that flies squarely in the face

1396
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 1: of the North America, the so called North American model

1397
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: of conservation. And we know that game sales work in

1398
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: places like South Africa or in England. You know, you

1399
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 1: go on the glorious twelfth of August and you shoot

1400
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of grouse and then they go down to

1401
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 1: the pub and they're consumed by people who buy them

1402
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: in the pub. Um. You know. So we have these

1403
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 1: rules that are a hundred years old to say you

1404
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: can't sell dear meat, but we may have to change

1405
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: some of those rules. And hunting a hundred years ago,

1406
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: who had to do with making the best of a

1407
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: bad situation where game was scarce, so you played up

1408
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 1: the challenge and the sportsmanship in the fair chase. Now

1409
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,679
Speaker 1: we have too many games. We want to make it easier,

1410
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:16,640
Speaker 1: So we want to open up technology. We want to

1411
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: allow rifles and shotguns and compound bows and crossbows and

1412
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, allow baiting and have long seasons and no

1413
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: limits on a number of those you can kill. Um.

1414
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: So there's there's a societal that's a societal shift. So

1415
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: that's a great point. I mean, I think of the

1416
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 1: seven tenants of the model as I think about them

1417
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: out to pull them up so I don't don't miss one.

1418
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: But like wildlife is a public trust, I think that's

1419
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 1: probably something that will stay in the test of time surely. Um. Yeah,

1420
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 1: except that wildlife is a public trust. It's easier to

1421
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: wax eloquent about that when that wildlife is scarce and

1422
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: you're talking about Bambi's mom and the noble red stag,

1423
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 1: the elk and other charismatic megaphonia. But it's another thing.

1424
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 1: You know, roll the clock forward thirty years and deer

1425
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 1: are just hoofed locust, you know, to use John Muir's

1426
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 1: uh phrase. You know, they're just their pests, their vermin.

1427
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're like woodchucks or environments. Um, you know,

1428
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to change how we think about, dear.

1429
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 1: They're not going to be the symbol that they once were.

1430
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 1: You know, the iconography of the stag. You know, we

1431
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: we you, we're gonna change to an ethos square. If

1432
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: it's brown, it's down, you know, sluesm um. And that

1433
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 1: again goes against the more sporting uh notions of limitations

1434
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 1: of one's technology, of fair play, of allowing the game

1435
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 1: an opportunity to escape. Right, this hunting will be for dear.

1436
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna stick with deer evolved from being sport

1437
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 1: hunting to culling right and again in New York State,

1438
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 1: down near New York City, deer hunting is culing right.

1439
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: They cannot kill enough, dear. This was Pat Durkin's column

1440
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: about Staten Island. Dear, you know, Stalin Island is spending

1441
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars in a very ill advised

1442
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 1: program to do birth control for deer on Staten Island.

1443
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: Will never work, right, because they just can't face the uh,

1444
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,880
Speaker 1: you know, the scenario that they they've just got to

1445
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: go all out and they got a nuke the deer

1446
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 1: on Stanard Island. They just got to kill them. Yeah, yeah,

1447
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 1: Well to your point, I mean, I think any of

1448
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 1: these ideas we certainly can run through and find ways.

1449
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the more troublesome tenants of the

1450
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: model that I've always talked about. I've talked about this

1451
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 1: with the folks who wrote it, Dr Geiston and Mr

1452
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 1: and Shane Money. Um, you know wildlife should only be

1453
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: killed for a legitimate purpose. Well that's that is a

1454
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 1: you know, how do you define legitimate? Um? And how

1455
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 1: do you think about that? So I think those types

1456
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 1: of things certainly have a little bit more room to

1457
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 1: move in the future. Um. And much like I think

1458
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: of fair killing, I I guess would we try to

1459
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:09,640
Speaker 1: lay a base of like how am I approaching this

1460
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 1: and what are the tenants of the ways that I

1461
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: approach hunting? And then when things shift above that that

1462
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:18,560
Speaker 1: base or that foundation, then certainly they can move. But what, like,

1463
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: what are the principles that I kind of know to

1464
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 1: be true through my own And I can't imagine them,

1465
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: can't imagine them changing. Um, I can't imagine. I can't

1466
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: think of a time where I would can you know,

1467
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 1: completely give up on those ideas and think that well,

1468
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: times are going to change, so I have to shift

1469
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: and move with and be progressive. Like, well, there has

1470
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 1: to be some you know, kind of foundation here. Is

1471
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 1: there a way that we can construct one? Like, is

1472
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 1: there a way that we have a starting point that

1473
01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: makes the most sense? You know? I really don't know

1474
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 1: how to answer that other than again, and I'm I'm

1475
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 1: sort of in my own mind, sort of dwelling on

1476
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:59,599
Speaker 1: the deer example. I like to sport hunt deer as

1477
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,000
Speaker 1: much as anybody during the regular season, but a couple

1478
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: of years, you know, not a couple of years ago,

1479
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,599
Speaker 1: about two decades ago, a friend of mine who owns

1480
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 1: a vineyard locally, got a nuisance permit for deer in

1481
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 1: the summer because he had just planted five acres of

1482
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 1: new grape lines and the deer were doing a major

1483
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:21,680
Speaker 1: hurd on his new, very expensive grape lines. And he

1484
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 1: knew I hunted, so he asked if I would help

1485
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 1: him out with deer population control, and I said sure,

1486
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:30,080
Speaker 1: I've never done it before. And in the middle of July,

1487
01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there in the sweltering heat and humidity, and

1488
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: one day I saw a dough come out with two

1489
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:44,200
Speaker 1: probably week old fonds, and it struck me that, oh

1490
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 1: my god, you know, if I kill this dough, those

1491
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 1: do those fonds are dead. And so I passed on

1492
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 1: the shot. And that night I just felt guilty about

1493
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,639
Speaker 1: it because here's my friend expecting me to kill deer

1494
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 1: to protect his vines, and this is a nuisance permit.

1495
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 1: And I realized, you know, I had sort of split

1496
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: ethical obligations. I have an obligation to dear, but I

1497
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 1: got an obligation on my friend, the vineyard owner, and

1498
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:09,600
Speaker 1: I swore that if I saw that dough again, I

1499
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:12,599
Speaker 1: would actually shoot her. And wouldn't you know, Like two

1500
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 1: nights later, that dough comes out with those same fonts

1501
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: and I shot her, and you know, I was that

1502
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 1: was like a three for one deal, right, I killed

1503
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 1: three deer, and honestly, those two fonts they didn't die

1504
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,720
Speaker 1: pleasant death because they were still nursing. And but you know,

1505
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,639
Speaker 1: that's the difference I think between a hunt that's purely

1506
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 1: a sport hunt and hunting enlisted as part of a

1507
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: larger management program. There go ahead, Well, just you know,

1508
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 1: that's an individual has to wrestle with his or her

1509
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 1: own conscience and and make those decisions and and make

1510
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 1: those calculations right when that dough came out the first night,

1511
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: I hadn't thought to that as a possibility, right. I

1512
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: needed time to process that scenario in my own head.

1513
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 1: So it took me the better part of that evening

1514
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 1: in it to the next day, and that's where I said, Okay,

1515
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it, And when it happened, I was

1516
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: ready to pull the trigger. Another person would make a

1517
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 1: difference decision. That's fine. Yeah, now that that that's a

1518
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,640
Speaker 1: very I think, you know, a very common but you know,

1519
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:24,639
Speaker 1: a very common thing that might happen in the woods,

1520
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 1: but also very profound telling of it, because it just

1521
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 1: tells you how the idea of hunting is so malleable

1522
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 1: it can change in an instant, just the situation you

1523
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 1: put yourself in, or you know, you think hunting is

1524
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:37,599
Speaker 1: this and it's always going to be this, and then

1525
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 1: you get put in a situation where you're making the

1526
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 1: ethical decision you had to make, which you know, I think,

1527
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 1: I think the best thing that I could say for folks,

1528
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,439
Speaker 1: listen to this show and for you and for that

1529
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:50,879
Speaker 1: you're thinking about it and you're making a conscious decision.

1530
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: You're you're not being forced into to it because of

1531
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 1: a tradition or because of a certain way that people

1532
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 1: are doing around you, kind of a social um restraints.

1533
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,719
Speaker 1: So being just being a thoughtful individual in the woods

1534
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 1: making these decisions, I think is is with with that

1535
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 1: personal responsibility seems to be the way where at least

1536
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,560
Speaker 1: we're getting somewhere, and these these ethical commemorial conversations that

1537
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:22,080
Speaker 1: come become confounding for sure. And and I've always suggested

1538
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 1: to people when I've done hunting talks that I actually

1539
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 1: honestly believe most hunters, more hunters, more often than not,

1540
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 1: are thoughtful. Yes, there are the few slab hunters out

1541
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,600
Speaker 1: there that are reckless and they're not safe, but I

1542
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 1: really think they are in a tremendously small minority, you know,

1543
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 1: and they but they get all the press, you know,

1544
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 1: they're the ones that are in the newspapers and who

1545
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 1: get arrested for poach and breaking laws. And you know,

1546
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:51,599
Speaker 1: by and large, most hunters are safe. They're thoughtful. Um,

1547
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 1: they're reflective. I really believe that. Yeah, I believe it too.

1548
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:59,599
Speaker 1: And I We've had a Vegan I call him Vegan philosopher,

1549
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: but he's a Vegan philosophy professor UM at a California,

1550
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 1: Robert C. Jones and him and I have some very

1551
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,640
Speaker 1: friendly debates about veganism and animal rights and hunting and

1552
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: where all these things go together. And he he asked

1553
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 1: me that off the air after we finished recording our

1554
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: last conversation. He said, Man, I'm really impressed with you,

1555
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 1: and really you're you know, you and everybody at meat

1556
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 1: either very thoughtful. And I just have an honest question,

1557
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: are you the minority? Because it feels that way. Um,

1558
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:32,400
Speaker 1: and so he was articulating, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we

1559
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: may I hook you guys up because he's he's a

1560
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 1: college professor on the in the West year in the East.

1561
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: You guys can talk about it and you can't articulate

1562
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 1: that point to him because I think it's important one.

1563
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,599
Speaker 1: And he is a very well meaning I a friend

1564
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,560
Speaker 1: of mine. I enjoy him immensely, and I think he

1565
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 1: had was never exposed to someone that thought hard about this,

1566
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,840
Speaker 1: and therefore is kind of like doggedly giving. Well, there

1567
01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: are hunters that think like this, but it can't be

1568
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 1: all of them, know, as he kind of raptualizes his thinking,

1569
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: his prior thinking. Right, It's definitely an interesting way. So

1570
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:08,880
Speaker 1: I hook you guys up and te be like, no,

1571
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 1: I they're they're most of us and I and I

1572
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: do think it's true. And even the guy who emailed

1573
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: me about the coyote contest, at least he's thinking about

1574
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 1: it and taking a stance and and and talking through

1575
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 1: with people around him whether he was doing it the

1576
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 1: right way or not. Um. I try to, you know,

1577
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:28,960
Speaker 1: and trying to maybe close up here and thinking about

1578
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: new hunters, whether they are the dreaded term of adult

1579
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:35,439
Speaker 1: onset or they're coming into it like I did, maybe

1580
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 1: at the age of twelve or whatever. Um, is there

1581
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 1: a way that you would address the new hunter that's

1582
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,600
Speaker 1: interested in this the topic of hunting ethics and and

1583
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 1: thinking about whether to pour a pilot corn out for

1584
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 1: a deer or thinking about that. Is there a way

1585
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: that you would just just address them and tell them,

1586
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, the most healthy way to kind of approach

1587
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 1: the conundrum? Right? Well, I think we touched on this

1588
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 1: last time as well when we spoke. You know, I

1589
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 1: think that sometimes new hunters come into hunting and they

1590
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 1: go straight to big game, and they go straight to

1591
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 1: deer hunting, and that's an awful, awesome responsibility to you know,

1592
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: put the twelve year old behind the trigger and you know,

1593
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 1: shoot Bambi's mom or a buck. And I think we

1594
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 1: ought to get back to encouraging youthful new hunters to

1595
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 1: do small game hunting first, squirrels, rabbits. Not that those

1596
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 1: forms of life are cheaper, but hey, it's one way

1597
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,639
Speaker 1: to hone your skills as a youthful hunter and really

1598
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 1: develop that ethic of a clean kill, you know, trying

1599
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:41,920
Speaker 1: to get that squirrel to drop out of the tree

1600
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: and not move, you know, and the same thing with

1601
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: a rabbit. And uh and And to me, I think

1602
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 1: that would be where I would start, and I think

1603
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:58,640
Speaker 1: the ethics will follow, right because I think, you know,

1604
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 1: you have to go about squirrel hunting in a certain

1605
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 1: way to be good at it. And it's excellent practice

1606
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 1: for deer hounding, it's excellent practice for deer stalking. Really,

1607
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: um you know, so I uh, you know, I think

1608
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 1: that's part of it. Uh. And I also think there's

1609
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: there's less uh machismo. And I think there's less hubris

1610
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: and less arrogance and pride. You know, I don't think

1611
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 1: anybody who's youthful is going to get all wound up

1612
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 1: about killing you know, the biggest squirrel in the woods

1613
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 1: or the you know, the most squirrels in the woods.

1614
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:35,840
Speaker 1: You know. I think you can bring a young hunter

1615
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:41,639
Speaker 1: in that way and in pulcated kind of humility, whereas

1616
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 1: if you go straight to big game and your whole

1617
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 1: you know, you know, you're hunting boby block and you're

1618
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 1: just turning it into this high stakes activity. And that's

1619
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: where I think young hunters get kind of a warped

1620
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:55,640
Speaker 1: sense of what hunting is because it's not all you know,

1621
01:27:55,840 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 1: big buck, you know, big racked bucks. Yeah. I always

1622
01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: thought I would just say, like, you know, remember that

1623
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 1: intrinsic part, Remember that part, because there are so many

1624
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 1: other influences out there that are gonna pull you in

1625
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 1: different directions. This was my argument with Peterson about you know,

1626
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 1: hunting preserves you know that again, there's similarly low stakes, right,

1627
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 1: you know, it's a sort of contrived situation, but it's

1628
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: an ideal place to work on a young hunter's ethics

1629
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: and safety and gun handling and how to move, you know,

1630
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: in a line where you know, if you're doing a

1631
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:32,160
Speaker 1: drive or whatever, um, you know, versus what can be

1632
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of an anarchic situation out in the woods. If so,

1633
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:39,799
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't really have a good answer

1634
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,640
Speaker 1: to that question other than, you know, we have to

1635
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 1: just continue to hope that hunter education programs do their

1636
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: job and the young hunters have reflective mentors who can

1637
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 1: bring them into it the right way. Not everybody does,

1638
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: you know. In a lot of times, people you know,

1639
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 1: have to be self taught. And here's where, you know,

1640
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:01,760
Speaker 1: it's a great thing now these kinds of podcasts or

1641
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 1: YouTube videos done by the right kinds of people, you know,

1642
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: showing it's not all about kill, you know, but it's

1643
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,920
Speaker 1: about how you hunt. And uh, you know, so I

1644
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:14,519
Speaker 1: think it is possible now it is day and age

1645
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: to to sort of be self taught. It's a little

1646
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:19,000
Speaker 1: easier than it was, say, twenty or thirty years ago,

1647
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 1: when there was no YouTube. Yeah, we see that a lot.

1648
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:23,559
Speaker 1: I had somebody bring up to me recently. Why are

1649
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 1: you always saying it's about the experience and not about

1650
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 1: the kill? What? What? Why is that a refrain? I said, Well,

1651
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 1: it's only refrained for me personally, because when I grew up,

1652
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:34,879
Speaker 1: it was all about the kill. Like our culture centered

1653
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:37,880
Speaker 1: in the eighties and the nineties centered around the kill

1654
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 1: the hunting community in the magazine. I was part of it,

1655
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:43,600
Speaker 1: in the magazines and the videos and the kind of

1656
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 1: the products. That's what it was. So I'm only saying

1657
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 1: that to say, like, that's certainly a great than killing

1658
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 1: a big buck is fantastic. I love doing it. But

1659
01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm only saying this kind of as a reaction to

1660
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 1: as a symptom of trying to present the things that

1661
01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 1: I know to also be true and and let maybe

1662
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 1: level set things a little bit for folks coming into it. Right,

1663
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: that's certainly, but we have to we have to allow

1664
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,400
Speaker 1: the youth to have their day and to be immature.

1665
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's that's also a good thing. You know.

1666
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:17,680
Speaker 1: I wouldn't go too hard on Uh. We had a

1667
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 1: conversation in the office earlier about what would I tell

1668
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:24,760
Speaker 1: my twenty five year old self, you know, about a

1669
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:26,800
Speaker 1: certain situation. I said, what my twenty five year old

1670
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:29,120
Speaker 1: self probably would give me the thirty five year old

1671
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: of the middle finger and say fuck you, I listening

1672
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:35,600
Speaker 1: to you. And so, you know, there's some humorists and

1673
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,240
Speaker 1: expecting people to kind of approach it in the way

1674
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 1: you want them to at a young age, said okay Boomer. Yeah,

1675
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, Boom, We're shut up. I'm gonna do

1676
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 1: it my own way. I'm twenty five, my brain is

1677
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:50,880
Speaker 1: just about finished fully forming, and so you know, so

1678
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,720
Speaker 1: there is there there is some hypocrisy in preaching this

1679
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 1: idea that I would never have gotten to if I

1680
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't have experienced life the way I had, hunting the

1681
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:01,760
Speaker 1: way I had, so um, and I think that's and

1682
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 1: and again that's why and find this compelling. That's why

1683
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,800
Speaker 1: Jim posits I'm sure found this compelling and why you

1684
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:10,200
Speaker 1: find it compelling because it's it's just full of these things,

1685
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 1: you know, the side roads to explore, and our own

1686
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 1: contradictions are kind of baked into this, and our own

1687
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, motivations are baked into this. So I I know, personally,

1688
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,560
Speaker 1: that's why I love these conversations. I love having you

1689
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 1: on for that reason because there's you just don't know

1690
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: where it's gonna go, and you, you know, learn a

1691
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 1: little bit something about yourself every time. Yeah, there's a

1692
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 1: lot of fun to talk to you. Well, absolutely, Jim,

1693
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,200
Speaker 1: We'll stay safe out there on the East Coast, and

1694
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:38,559
Speaker 1: I am definitely going to when we can get back

1695
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:41,160
Speaker 1: to traveling again. I'm gonna call the great Pat Durkin

1696
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: as we were talking about before we hit record, and

1697
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:46,519
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into you, him, me, you and him

1698
01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:48,599
Speaker 1: up in the Wisconsin deer camp that has very few

1699
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:54,679
Speaker 1: deer and where it goes from there. All right, thanks,

1700
01:31:54,760 --> 01:32:10,839
Speaker 1: Jim sounds good. Thanks Ben. That's it. That's all. Joe Fernado, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.

1701
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 1: It's good. It's good having here. We're still gonna hunt together, right,

1702
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, does this mean we can't hunt it? Get No, definitely,

1703
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: I was hoping we could still hunt. Yeah, it'd probably

1704
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:20,640
Speaker 1: be more fun, less stressful. Yeah, we're gonna hunt the

1705
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 1: brakes this year. We got brake sax. Oh yeah, that's good.

1706
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 1: I thought maybe we weren't all to talk to each

1707
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:28,599
Speaker 1: other anymore. Now we're on. We're on it like North

1708
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 1: and South, mortal enemies, mortal enemies. You're not working for

1709
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,120
Speaker 1: a I hate you now, competitive Media company. Yeah, I

1710
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:36,920
Speaker 1: completely hate you. It's a sad day, so many ways,

1711
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:40,599
Speaker 1: so many ways. Well, no breaks, hunting bulls are gonna die.

1712
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 1: What else do we go with? Have Idaho deer tags?

1713
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:46,080
Speaker 1: Yea Idaho deer. So we're still gonna be You'll still

1714
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:48,439
Speaker 1: got another puppy coming, so we have to go kill

1715
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 1: all the birds. All the birds. Dude. I saw I

1716
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 1: was out putting trail cams up, and I wish I

1717
01:32:53,479 --> 01:32:56,320
Speaker 1: have a Noza Sharp moment about trail cams. Oh yeah,

1718
01:32:56,360 --> 01:32:58,080
Speaker 1: you could probably guess what it is like fall down

1719
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:02,599
Speaker 1: the map in front of it. No, I didn't fall down.

1720
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 1: I hiked about two miles in about four miles out.

1721
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 1: It was a hard it was. It was good hiking

1722
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:10,760
Speaker 1: two miles in and four miles out. So you poked

1723
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:13,720
Speaker 1: a long way out, okay on purpose. I just might

1724
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:16,679
Speaker 1: have walked past your turtle how at like nine am

1725
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 1: that cool? Yeah? Yeah, I love wolf. It was cool

1726
01:33:20,360 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 1: like in the drainage we were in, so I mean

1727
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:24,800
Speaker 1: had the echo factor. It was really cool. Actually, So

1728
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:27,680
Speaker 1: stayed in this cool little airbnb after the wedding right

1729
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:32,000
Speaker 1: above lakeside and uh woke up early early there was

1730
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 1: like moose walking around and could have Warner heard wolves?

1731
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 1: How could have just been in my head but pretty hungover.

1732
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was great, that's all it was. Yeah,

1733
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:45,160
Speaker 1: that was cool, but I something Helen shout out to

1734
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:49,360
Speaker 1: my neighbor and good friend Omar Flentes who was with me,

1735
01:33:50,320 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 1: and I didn't put the card in the camera. Oh yeah,

1736
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 1: I should have guessed that didn't put the I didn't

1737
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,800
Speaker 1: got home. He was ready for a little barbecue. It

1738
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:03,800
Speaker 1: was on July four. Getting ready for a barbecue is

1739
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 1: getting a shower, looking and put my hands in my pockets.

1740
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's the case and inside the case, and

1741
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 1: how stupid am I? Because I like at the time

1742
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 1: that I was hanging the camera, I'm like, that's not

1743
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:17,559
Speaker 1: really the shutter doesn't seem to be working, like it's

1744
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 1: the light is on, but it doesn't seem to be

1745
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:22,920
Speaker 1: taking pictures. There wasn't like a little message on the

1746
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:24,600
Speaker 1: screen and said no, the screen was blank. That was

1747
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:27,040
Speaker 1: another thing that should have alarmed because kept hitting the button,

1748
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:29,519
Speaker 1: it wouldn't it wouldn't show any messages on the screen,

1749
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:31,920
Speaker 1: and that's hitting menu and it wouldn't do anything. So

1750
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:33,880
Speaker 1: there was a million reasons. So I should have known

1751
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,840
Speaker 1: that I messed up. But that's my not so that's

1752
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:41,080
Speaker 1: just saying we just hung one. We were checking out

1753
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 1: a wallow, a spring fed wallow that I thought would

1754
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 1: be it'll be it's good later, but it turns out.

1755
01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 1: There wasn't nothing hitting it right now, so we just

1756
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 1: kind of hung one up on a trail that I

1757
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: thought was advantageous. But there's a lot of bear a

1758
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: lot of bear ship. We heard wolves, We've seen it.

1759
01:34:57,360 --> 01:34:59,000
Speaker 1: That's it's the same spot we right last year where

1760
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,880
Speaker 1: we saw the wolf tracks on the road. Um. So yeah,

1761
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 1: there's my not so sharp moment. So we may just

1762
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:09,880
Speaker 1: have to read that work sharp sharpener now No, I

1763
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:14,800
Speaker 1: already have one, so good, but I'm stupid anyway. Thanks

1764
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:19,000
Speaker 1: to James Tantillo, um, and thanks to you Joe Forno

1765
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: for all your days at meat either man, it was

1766
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:23,920
Speaker 1: a good time. You're getting down on a high note,

1767
01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 1: I say, going on to the greenness of green pastures hopefully. Um. No, grass,

1768
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 1: grass is always greener on the other side, right, that's fine,

1769
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 1: but green grass is nice, so you can just just

1770
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 1: play around until the greener grass comes. That's what I've done,

1771
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 1: That's what I did. That's how I'm here, And like

1772
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 1: I said, I'm basically just modeling my life after yours.

1773
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 1: So um, not not a good thing, but um one

1774
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 1: thirty three, I really enjoyed talking to Jim Tantillo. Um.

1775
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 1: You know, I know for many of you, the ethical

1776
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 1: conversations are frustrating because a lot of times you just

1777
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:00,200
Speaker 1: start your hands up with like and Jip had this

1778
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:01,640
Speaker 1: a few times to me. I don't know if I

1779
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:05,360
Speaker 1: can answer that question, but I think, UM, asking these

1780
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:08,560
Speaker 1: questions and exploring these things and understand our own contradictions

1781
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 1: and our own once in our own why, it's kind

1782
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:14,080
Speaker 1: of the point of this whole program. And I have,

1783
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:17,800
Speaker 1: as I said, in talking to Jim, UM learned a lot,

1784
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:21,679
Speaker 1: learned a lot about myself asking these important questions. Sometimes

1785
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:24,080
Speaker 1: I learned that I'm full of shit. Sometimes I learned

1786
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:27,400
Speaker 1: I was right all along. Um. But it's those explorations

1787
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 1: that make me a little bit better at at this

1788
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:32,519
Speaker 1: very important game of hunting. And so that's hopefully what

1789
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 1: we can mean. And speaking of all that, I want

1790
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:38,840
Speaker 1: to leave you guys today with with Jim pozziwits his

1791
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: voice UM a story that I think has impacted me.

1792
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:45,400
Speaker 1: And I've thought about it um many times since we

1793
01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 1: recorded this podcast back in January, and I'll continue to

1794
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:51,560
Speaker 1: think of it when I think of him, and and

1795
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,240
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a story about hunting and generations

1796
01:36:55,280 --> 01:37:00,080
Speaker 1: and passage of time. It's a story that, while in

1797
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:06,640
Speaker 1: like Jim Tantillo's story, while very normal, can be impactful

1798
01:37:07,120 --> 01:37:09,479
Speaker 1: um depending on the person that experiences it. So that's

1799
01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 1: what you're gonna hear. We're gonna leave you with that today.

1800
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 1: Hopefully all of you can go take a look at

1801
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 1: Beyond Fair Chase. If you don't have a copy, pick

1802
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: up a copy, read it, reflect learn about the life

1803
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:26,960
Speaker 1: of Jim Positis. So rest in peace. Jim. Here he is.

1804
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:34,679
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week. A couple of seasons ago,

1805
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm stumbling up into We used to live eight miles

1806
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:41,960
Speaker 1: south of town and just out the back door, did

1807
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 1: lots and lots of hunting. But I go to an

1808
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:47,960
Speaker 1: little familiar place in the dark and I sit there

1809
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:51,639
Speaker 1: because there's gales coming up the other side. Your wife, yeah,

1810
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,400
Speaker 1: and she's liable to, you know, start some elkout. So

1811
01:37:56,560 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in one of the passes where they sometimes

1812
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:04,160
Speaker 1: go a hunter as the hunter is known to do.

1813
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there in a pre dawn and I'm

1814
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:14,120
Speaker 1: looking down the trail. I came in what looks like

1815
01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 1: a father and two sons come walking up the trail,

1816
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:23,840
Speaker 1: and I'm just sitting there excuse me. The father sees

1817
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:27,320
Speaker 1: me and he halts the boys, and they're like poster

1818
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:32,400
Speaker 1: children out of Hunter Education magazine. I mean, they're control

1819
01:38:32,439 --> 01:38:38,040
Speaker 1: of their weapons, undivided attention, standing there quietly in the background.

1820
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:41,679
Speaker 1: And the father tiptoes up to this old guy sitting

1821
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: in the woods, and the father says, we don't want

1822
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: to get ahead of you. He whispers it to me,

1823
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:53,439
Speaker 1: and I look, and I'm thinking, here, I'm sitting on

1824
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:58,839
Speaker 1: the National Forest public lands in pursuit of a restored

1825
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:05,240
Speaker 1: wildlife population that's available to anybody. And the first three

1826
01:39:05,320 --> 01:39:10,120
Speaker 1: guys I meet want to defer to me. And I

1827
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:13,280
Speaker 1: said that, you know what I'm thinking that Theodore Roosevelt

1828
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:17,880
Speaker 1: talking about the generations within the womb of time is

1829
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:21,120
Speaker 1: what he called us. Well, there were three generations right there,

1830
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:25,360
Speaker 1: this old guy, me, the father, and two sons what

1831
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 1: I took to be two sons. And I look at

1832
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 1: the situation and I say back to the father, I

1833
01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 1: think I know what I see here, and I want

1834
01:39:36,040 --> 01:39:40,519
Speaker 1: you ahead of me. And then he says, the youngest

1835
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,800
Speaker 1: boy can shoot a cow if he sees one, and

1836
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 1: I give him a smile and the thumbs up, and

1837
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,920
Speaker 1: the kid's face lights up in the dark with excitement

1838
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:55,320
Speaker 1: of that moment, and in his anticipation is an excitement.

1839
01:39:55,560 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 1: And just again I lean on Roosevelt. We do these things, uh,

1840
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:06,240
Speaker 1: for the economic well being of the people, But there

1841
01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 1: is more. They also add to the beauty of living

1842
01:40:11,600 --> 01:40:14,960
Speaker 1: and therefore the joy of life. And there I was

1843
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 1: looking at the joy of life shining in the dark,

1844
01:40:19,360 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 1: and I thought, holy Mackerel, well and all you've experienced

1845
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, And then they walked up, and

1846
01:40:24,479 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 1: then you know, they walked ahead. I sat there and

1847
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 1: I bawled. I was so emotionally moved by how this

1848
01:40:33,200 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 1: all fits. Two