WEBVTT - Killer Mom Trial: More Fiery Testimony Expected Today, Forensic Psychiatrist Back On Stand 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey, the folks sit is Monday, August twenty fourth, and 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:11.600 Week five of the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial begins today. 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.280 This could be the final week of the Lindsay Clancy 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.880 triple murder trial. And with that, welcome to this episode 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.239 of Amy and TJ. Here we are rope. This could 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.119 be wrapped up closing statements as early as tomorrow. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:24.600 Possibly that's possible. 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.400 We know that today that we're going to have the 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.120 prosecution's first rebuttal witness back on the stand. And that 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.680 was certainly a contentious back and forth on Friday with 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.479 doctor Avra Mack. Yes, yes, he was there on Friday 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.480 after the defense rested its case and the prosecution put 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:51.199 on its first rebuttal witness. But man, fireworks might be 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.000 one way to describe the back and forth exchange between 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:59.160 the defense and doctor Mack. And that should continue this 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.480 morning and the trial resumes. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:03.360 All the fire seemed to be coming for one direction 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.680 from Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney for Lindsay Klantzk, who 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.040 has been putting on an extraordinary display and a curinary defense. 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:16.479 But ros yes he dressed this guy down. Yeah, it 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.479 was remarkable to watch it again. Do you think Avram 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.640 Mack went home and watched it. Do you think he 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:22.920 watched his testimony back. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.119 I don't know if he could relive that, and maybe 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.000 he needed to to do. 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.840 Better today on the stand. I'm not sure, but. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.280 Yes, the judge had to interrupt some contentious testimony. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:35.760 They were talking over each other. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.199 And once you have doctor Avernmack get on the stand 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.920 and say point blank to the jurors that he does 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:48.160 not believe Lindsay Clancy was suffering from postpartum psychosis. He 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.520 said he does not believe Lindsey Clancy had bipolar disorder. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.320 So yeah, the defense needed to do what it did 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:55.920 to try and. 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.720 Discredit him and. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.520 Have the jury not believe what he had just testified 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.200 to because it's the cruxt of their case. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.360 But they also made you not like him at certain parts. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.720 Kevin Reddington went out this guy and I thought he 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.120 was going to be solid, rob I thought he was steady, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.280 and I thought he was going to make but slowly 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.960 but surely, Kevin Reddington kept chipping away at this guy too. 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.079 He finally got annoyed. He became a little bit of 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.399 a jerk up there and rolling his eyes and how 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.440 he was dealing with it, and it made him feel 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.280 robes one sided. It made it feel like he wasn't 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.520 there for his expertise or the science of it all. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.320 He was there to help the prosecution make their case. 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.360 And when you have doctrine front your name to come 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.480 off as being on one side even though you're there 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.839 for the prosecution, we get it. But he came off 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.680 like he was trying to score some points for the prosecution. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.800 Absolutely, And at the beginning, Kevin Reddington had him admit 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:56.480 that he is paid for his expert witness testimony by 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.640 the prosecution, and look, I think a lot of people 0:02:58.720 --> 0:02:59.920 understand that's how it works. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.720 Just to have to have him admit that obviously. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.040 Creates a certain lens through which the jury was going 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.360 to view his testimony. But I thought that was a 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:14.600 fair point. And look, he said the only thing he 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.960 would give in terms of what Lindsay Clancy's mental state was. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.639 He said she had a major depressive episode as part 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.760 of a major depressive disorder. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:25.320 But notably, he. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.880 Claimed, and he maintained the entire time, that she had 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.160 the capacity to understand what was right and what was wrong, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.600 and a lot of it was He mentioned that She 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.800 told him that she heard this male voice that said 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.560 go to God, and in his opinion, that meant she 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.720 knew exactly what she was doing, she knew it was wrong. 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.360 She waited until her husband was gone because she knew 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.960 he would intervene. These are all signs that someone knew 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.760 exactly what they were doing was wrong. 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:56.200 I didn't. I don't know how much. I don't know 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:57.960 what do you think how much emphasis was put on 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:02.080 that go to God sentence? I thought it was totally 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.560 interesting and I was curious, but his interpretation of it 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.800 was difficult for me to really grasp to. How do 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.800 you make the jump from she said that phrase. Therefore, 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:11.920 she was saying. 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:14.440 Just because she knew she was killing them didn't mean 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.120 she knew it was wrong to do it. Because the 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:23.160 argument has been made by several defense witnesses that and 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.560 the one actually right before. And I thought, this is 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.719 really interesting. We haven't gone over this, he talked about 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.480 on the day of the murders. He believes that miss 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.880 Clancy was psychotic, and this was the defense's final witness, 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.960 doctor Philip Resnick, who's also a forensic psychiatrist, But he 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.960 claimed that there were two things Miss Lindsay Clancy was 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.400 dealing with altruistic philicide and acutely psychotic philicide. The altruistic 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.200 philicide is that she was killing her children out of love. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.320 She had a distorted, delusional belief that her children would 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.359 be worse off if they were left alive. And you 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.440 couple that with the time that with his but opinion 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.880 that she was psychotic, that all shows she did not know. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.760 She is not responsible for the criminality of killing her 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.960 children because she believed she was doing something good for them. 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:13.120 So go to God. 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.240 So to me, I don't know that this rebuttal witness 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.520 did it for me with his go to God explanation. 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.000 Yeah, I didn't make it. It was a leap. It 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.800 didn't necessarily I heard him out. I just it didn't. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.279 It didn't read for me, and the I couldn't tell. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.680 The other forensic psychiatrist was saying the two philicides, the 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.240 altruistic and was the other one acutely psychotic acutely psychotic? 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.280 If she was he saying she had both of them, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:41.400 or as one of the others. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.480 He was saying she had both and so and that 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.880 so she had this idea and this is part of 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.359 her psychosis. That she was doing something good for her kids, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.279 So saying go to God was actually her saying, I'm 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.719 doing something good for you. I'm sending you to a 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.440 better place, because you'll be worse off I go to 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.640 I'm going to be dead because she had her intention 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.320 to die by suicide, to jump throw herself out of 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.680 that window, so she felt like her children would be 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.559 better off with her with God than alive. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.720 We've heard that before in other cases of people, So 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.440 I that was the first time I'm hearing an explanation 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.440 that goes in the face of what I thought was 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.040 the case. Was just that they're killing their kids because 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.479 they want them to be better off, because they won't 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.000 be doing well if I'm gone. I bro So the 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.320 go to God didn't work. Again. He seems to be 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.120 a credible enough guy, but Reddington has a way of 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.599 making everybody not look readibal. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.839 He started off by just questioning doctor Max's actual knowledge 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.240 of Lindsay, her case, her background, and then went into 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:49.280 his credentials. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.120 It was effective on the back just asking her simple stuff, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.320 asking simple stuff that you think she would know, like 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.720 what was she taking, what did she watch? What was 0:06:57.800 --> 0:06:58.680 she eat? Like just bait. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.280 How much did she work out, When did she get married, 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:02.680 how long has she been married? 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.240 What are her coworkers think of her? 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.360 How would you He basically exposed the fact that doctor 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:14.600 Mack didn't do any sort of interview or research on 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.440 Lindsey by talking to co workers, friend's family. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.400 And look, I'm not saying that he's. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.240 Supposed to or should have, but Reddington made it appear 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:23.960 like he should have. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.280 But that's the thing. I don't know if he needs 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.000 to know that stuff or not, but as I sit here, Wow, 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.480 he doesn't know that stuff. It was so it was 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.920 just effective and he was he's an investigative. He said, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.800 you didn't do any investigation into her background. You're just 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.320 depending on what she tells you. That sounds to me ridiculous, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.480 but also at the same time, it's true in this 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.840 industry that we've learned, right psychiatrists, they depend on what 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.600 that person is reporting. Okay, I don't think that's the 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.120 great way to go about it. But the point that's 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.880 coming across robes is not the point that the psychiatrists 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.440 did what they were supposed to do. I think Reddington's 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.200 actually pointing out flaws not just in these psychiatrists, but 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.080 in the industry in how we treat mental illness a 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.320 lot of ways, and that's working. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.080 It absolutely is, and I believe that is where they 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.840 are going to start today because if you recall, the 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.320 judge basically interrupted this contentious back and forth during this 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:25.040 cross examination just as they were talking about the DSM 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.240 to what you're pointing about, that is the Diagnostic and 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:32.920 Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. What Reddington Clancy's defense attorney 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.240 was pointing out with doctor Mack is that postpartum psychosis 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:41.160 isn't even listed as its own distinct diagnosis. It's like 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:46.120 a subcategory, barely mentioned. You've got thousands of pages. This 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.280 is the bible for psychiatrists, for forensic psychiatry, and they 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:56.120 don't even talk about in any length whatsoever postpartum psychosis. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:09:00.520 So if it's not being taught, if it's not being studied, 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:06.480 if information on this rare disorder isn't readily known, how 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.520 could doctor Mack or frankly, any psychiatrist really be able 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:16.440 to treat, help and maybe even diagnose somebody with this 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.719 There isn't language on it. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.080 That was pretty damning because that was a huge book. 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.280 I mean, he had the book in front of him 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.120 and was tossing around at times as he was looking 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.839 through it, pointing at it and patent and hitting it 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:32.920 and everything. But he ended up laying that thing robes 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.760 on the witness stand standing right there next to him. So, yeah, 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.040 show me in here where it says d da da da. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.360 And it was awkward because the guy said, well, and 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.920 he's flipping through pages trying to find stuff, and oh, 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:45.559 here it is right here where he says dada da 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.640 and reading Hill Readington cuts him down. You're talking about 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.280 that paragraph. That's all. This little section in a thousand 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:56.120 page book is like six pair He the physical it 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.640 added to the tension, and the judge it seems like, 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.040 is giving Reddington a lot of rope, a. 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.600 Long leash to do whatever he wants. 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.560 And look, that was incredibly effective to recognize that this 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:17.200 is the entire psychiatric industry just doesn't give weight to 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.840 this disorder. And I think that was incredibly effective that 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.640 we that she not only didn't get the help she needed, 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.439 but is there even help out there for a woman 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.880 like her or other women like her out there? It 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.240 seems like it's massively inadequate, and just the studies have 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.160 not been done. So he's going to be back on 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.520 the stand, and I don't know if they're going to 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.480 continue to talk about the DSM, but I have a 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:47.440 feeling Reddington has a lot more to say to doctor Mac. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.960 I wonder if Reddington goes back and watches his performance 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.559 and watches his cross examination, if he takes notes, and. 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.760 Then you don't have to preparing. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.960 But once we have doctor Mac finishing up on the stand, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.920 there is expected to be several more that was how 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.840 it was described, several more rebuttal witnesses. And look, this 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.840 is the moment where Clancy's defense attorneys are Defense attorney 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.000 Kevin readyten. He is the one and only singular defense attorney. 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:20.160 No one else has been questioning or cross examining anyone. 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.360 It's been all him, which has been remarkable. Watch. 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.520 We haven't even seen him consult with anybody in the courtroom. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.320 He has been a one man show. Nobody has been 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.080 at that table. He's got no help, well at least 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:32.640 in the courtroom. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:33.680 No, not at all. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.559 And so yes, you would think this is going to 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.000 be very important for him to make sure he properly 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.400 cross examines anyone else. They bring up who again, this 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.960 is really a battle of the experts. Was Lindsey Clancy 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.880 in a state of psychosis or was she not? That 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.320 is literally going to determine the outcome of this trial, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.559 and so exam questioning and then cross examining these expert 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.640 witnesses is going to mean everything when it comes to 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.360 verdict time and the jury. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.280 I don't know, it's going to come down to who 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:03.840 they believe. 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:10.960 I thought the they cid the the expert that the 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.360 defense had up that was the last witness. When he flattered, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.560 he just plainly said it. She was not criminally responsible. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.240 You remember, they had so many zoom problems. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.600 They did. They did, and he. 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.640 Was kind of a soft spoken, kind of a quieter guy. Yeah, 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.280 And I don't know if it should or if it would, 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:34.520 but his the impact of his testimony wasn't there because 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.400 he couldn't deliver his lines in a strong and a 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:40.840 loud voice. There was a delay and everything. So he 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.360 was saying and the information got out there, but it 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.000 wasn't an opportunity for them to see and face a 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.520 guy who was saying the most important thing for the defense. 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.600 I wonder if that's going to hurt them their final witness, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.439 as you pointed out was a zoom witness with technical difficulties. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.600 But what he said packed U punch and they'll get 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.840 a transcript. I believe they usually let the jurors go 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:03.600 back with a transcript. But some of the stuff he 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.000 said did stand out. He said that he said Lindsay 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.120 was crying daily about the loss of her three children. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.600 That certainly flies in the face from what we've heard 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.080 from some of the prosecution witnesses who say she was 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.560 playing dominoes and watching TV and not. 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:18.560 Seeming upset at all. 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.120 But he did give his final diagnosis of her bipolar 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.200 two with severe depression, and he flat out set on 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.080 the day of the murders, she was psychotic and she 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:30.880 had postpartum psychosis. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.040 He made it very very clear. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.000 But when you have one doctor telling you one thing 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.880 and another doctor telling you the exact opposite thing, what 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.720 is the jury supposed to think about all of it 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.160 or any of it? That's confusing as hell. And speaking 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.520 to that confusion when we come back, this case is 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.640 literally dividing the country. There are the group who say 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.960 Lindsay Clancy was let down by the medical profession, she 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.199 needed help, and then there's the other side. Saying, okay, whatever, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.320 her child deserve. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.640 Justice and. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.920 Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. As we continue 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.720 to watch what we believe will be the final week 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.800 in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial, it has reached 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.720 a fever pitch in terms of attention from the American public. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:25.640 People are invested. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.800 We're seeing this story now at the top of almost 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.320 every single major news network, and people are weighing in, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.200 articles are being written, and really and truly, there are 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.080 just two sides that there's not a lot of middle 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.640 ground here. Either people think that Lindsay Clancy should be 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:45.200 shown empathy, should be given treatment, should spark more conversations 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.760 about women and mental health. And then there's the other 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:49.800 side that says, are you kidding me? If a man 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.080 did this, even if he had a mental disorder, he 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.840 would have zero support that this is sexism. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.360 On the other side, oh, I haven't heard the sexte. 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.680 Oh absolutely, people are claiming that this is sexist because 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.040 if a man had a mental disorder and it was 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.880 claiming he was insane when he killed his kids, how 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.560 many people would be rallying to his defense and talking 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.840 about the need for more mental health studies For men. 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:16.880 Who's screaming sexism? Like, what group of people are upset 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:18.600 by that part of this? 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:19.640 Do you know what's interesting? 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:25.440 A lot of this division is along political lines, conservatives 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:26.280 versus liberals. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.200 It's really really interesting. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.640 And a lot of conservative women I've seen are writing 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:37.240 op eds in major news outlets saying that, yes, we 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.520 understand that she might have been suffering a bit, but 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:44.600 that does not erase or make it okay that they're 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.280 upset that more people are concerned for Lindsay Clancy than 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.760 outraged about her killing her children, and they're confused by that. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.480 People are saying, I'm a mom of four, I had 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.320 certain issues, but I didn't kill my kids. 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.240 Let's call this for what it is. So it is. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.520 Really it's getting ugly out there, it's getting nasty out there, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.320 and they're perplexed by why Lindsay Clancy has so much support. 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.520 And some of the folks who are supporting her are 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.280 saying that could have been me telling their stories about 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.120 how dangerously close they came to harming their children or themselves, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.640 and they want more mental health support for moms. But 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.000 it's so sad that even something like this, you got 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.160 moms fighting each other now about whether or not we 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:29.200 should have sympathy or empathy for Lindsey Clancy and why 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.320 we aren't more upset or outraged about the deaths of 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:34.120 these three kids. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:38.360 We are. We're saddened, exactly. We are saddened, and there 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.320 is some outrage, But what percentage of it needs to 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.360 go directly to the woman in the wheelchair? And that's 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.960 okay to talk about that. I don't think it's okay 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.720 to just see video of women in pink outside the 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.400 courtroom supporting her and immediately respond when you haven't watched 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.960 a single damn day of testify such a good point. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.920 You haven't read up on the case beyond a couple 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.960 of headlines or a couple of other people who are 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.320 posting on TikTok. That's all, Robes. We are just not 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.640 in a society anymore that stops and looks for any context, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.840 any meaning, or any explanation. We just react. We just react, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.840 and that's I get it. My reaction to three babies 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:26.960 being strangled is sadness and outrage. Where do I direct it? 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.440 I'll ask what you always say, Robes, before you react 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:37.879 to something emotionally, get curious first. Is my outrage? And anger. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.480 Is it all in the right place if I directed 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.680 at her and from everything Robes I have seen and heard, No, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.160 there's more to this story. 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.840 I agree, And we have watched the trial, I would 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.520 argue more than pretty much everyone who's commenting. Some people 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.640 might be riveted and watching every moment, but because this is. 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.040 Our job, we actually get to do it can do it. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.480 And I doubt most people have enough hours in the 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.360 day to watch what we've seen. And I just think 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.840 that there needs to be a pause in pointing the 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.080 finger until you actually have watched the whole process take place. 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.399 And it'll be interesting to see what the jurors say. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.879 And I don't know, like we get it wrong all 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.440 the time. If I'm a juror, I'm imagining what that 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.840 would be like, and sometimes they come to different conclusions. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.399 We've never gotten it right. Sorry, every time we do 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.119 that we know exactly what the jury's going to do. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:30.840 We eat our jaws on the floor. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.600 I mean, even the attorneys themselves have no idea what 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.880 a jury is going to do. And that's actually fair. Now, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760 NPR put out this was interesting. Postpartum depression affects ten 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.159 percent of mothers postpartum psychosis. They say estimates estimated effects 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.760 one to two out of every one thousand berths. But 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.720 the big thing about this, and this is what part 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.640 of what this trial is pointing out. We don't train 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:56.880 our doctors. Clearly, we just saw this play out on Friday. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.320 It's massively missed. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.040 A mount sign I psychiatrist said numbers ten percent of 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.520 moms with postpartum depression, one to two out of every 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.840 thousand berths with postpartum psychosis. They said, we don't know, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.280 we have no idea how many women have actually suffered 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.879 from either of these disorders because it's missed because we 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.520 don't have training on it. And this is a psychiatrist 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:23.880 who says, it's just describing how little, almost no training 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.639 goes into this and these disorders. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:28.760 I was surprised. I was going to follow up and 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.760 you've answered it there, But ten percent sounded loaded me. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.480 And that's exactly that's the only official number we have, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.720 and it's just not correct. But that's the only one 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.320 to even point to because it's the only one that's 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.639 ever been made. And I think, look, and some of 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.680 these articles I was listening, I'm curious what you think. 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:53.800 They're upset that the conversation has turned to this idea 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.280 of not that anyone's happy that three children died, but 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.000 that we're focused more on trying to point out the 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.639 ineptness or the inadequacies in our healthcare system for women, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.520 rather than pushing for justice for these kids that we 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.760 have our focus is in the wrong place. That we 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.439 should be focused on justice and not focused on looking 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.040 at an entire industry, And I just disagree. I think 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.600 both can can happen and occur in the same place, 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:22.840 and there it's important for both of them to be 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.200 considered and talked about. It's so interesting have people get 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:27.120 so upset, but. 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:31.000 We ever consider for a second that justice for these 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:36.720 kids is revamping the industry. Justice for these kids is 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.920 actually examining why they're dead. They're dead at the hands 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.120 of their mother. There's still another why what was the result? 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.439 Something got her to this place? An I from everything 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.719 I've seen, Robes am not just. I have seen no 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:58.320 evidence that this woman was so overwhelmed by motherhood that 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.760 she put a plan into place to get rid of 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.960 the kids. I just I haven't seen that. I know 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.879 they're trying to make it, but babe, that's it's just 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.880 not there, So yes, justice for these kids roes wet 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.399 ten percent. How many mothers out there have scared the 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.960 but Jesus out of themselves by having some crazy, psychotical 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.719 whatever thought and scared to share it with somebody because 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.520 of what you're going to think about her as a mother, Babe. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.600 I think almost every mother, if she's honest with herself, 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.000 in some of those weeks and months after giving birth, 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.320 your kid won't stop screaming, your kid won't won't breastfeed, 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:33.399