1
00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast.

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 2: Well, for those of us up north, I just want

3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 2: to say, it is that time of year when we

4
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 2: all say there is no such thing as climate change

5
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,880
Speaker 2: because it is cold and miserable here. But as you

6
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,360
Speaker 2: know by now on this podcast, we don't like to

7
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,200
Speaker 2: live in the black and white. We like to dig

8
00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:20,640
Speaker 2: into things, so we want to.

9
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: Have We don't want to say this or that about it.

10
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,560
Speaker 1: We want to dig deep into the truth.

11
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 2: And my guest today is actually a climate scientist who

12
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 2: is going to share with us what he's studied about

13
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,480
Speaker 2: climate change and also explain how sometimes certain facts may

14
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,879
Speaker 2: be omitted to get information published, and that I think

15
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,159
Speaker 2: is no surprise to those of us in the media.

16
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,599
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that these papers are untruthful. It just

17
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 2: means that they may not focus on everything that impacts

18
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,000
Speaker 2: a certain area.

19
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 1: So he's going to kind of break that down for us.

20
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 2: But I think you kind of know what this is like, because,

21
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 2: let's face it, it happens in the.

22
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 1: News all the time. It's just a little bit different.

23
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 2: Tive in the news is adjusted to garner more interest

24
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,800
Speaker 2: for the reader or the viewer. But it turns out

25
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 2: that maybe there's something that's like that in the science world.

26
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: My guest today wrote a column exposing the truth the

27
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,119
Speaker 2: behind the scenes world of scientific publishing. I won't put

28
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,640
Speaker 2: my spin on it because we're going to get the

29
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 2: whole story from Patrick Brown in a moment. But first

30
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,959
Speaker 2: I want to talk to you a little bit about

31
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,679
Speaker 2: your health, because, as you know, I always say, you

32
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,400
Speaker 2: can't put a price on your health. And I stay

33
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,919
Speaker 2: energized and keep doing what I love every day because

34
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 2: I get the maximum servings and.

35
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,560
Speaker 1: Nutrition of fruits and vegetables.

36
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 2: I rely on Balance in Nature's Fruits and Veggies and

37
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,479
Speaker 2: a capsule to give me the maximum nutrition of thirty

38
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 2: one whole fruits.

39
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 1: And veggies every day.

40
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 2: Balance of Nature is giving listeners thirty five percent off

41
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 2: any first preferred order plus free shipping with promo code tutor.

42
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,279
Speaker 2: So just go to balanceannature dot com and enter promo

43
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,240
Speaker 2: code tutor to get started today. You're going to feel awesome.

44
00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: Trust me.

45
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 2: Balance of Nature's fruits and Veggies and a cap so

46
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,120
Speaker 2: are powdered after an advanced vacuum cold process, keeping the

47
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 2: maximum nutrition intact. So put your health first. The easy

48
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,440
Speaker 2: way with Balance of Natures fruits and veggies and a capsule.

49
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 2: Get thirty five percent off your first preferred order ship

50
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,640
Speaker 2: to you free with promo code tutor at balanceifnature dot com.

51
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 2: I feel confident about my health because of balance in Nature.

52
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 2: So check out all of the testimonials from people just

53
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 2: like you on their website to see how balance of

54
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,640
Speaker 2: Nature is making a difference in their lives, just like

55
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 2: it will in yours. Go now to balance offnature dot

56
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 2: com and get thirty five percent off your first preferred

57
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 2: order with free shipping with promo code tutor. All right, now,

58
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 2: let's bring in Patrick Brown to the podcast. He's a

59
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,360
Speaker 2: PhD climate scientist and co director of the Climate and

60
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 2: Energy Team at the Breakthrough Institute. Patrick, thank you so

61
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 2: much for being here.

62
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.

63
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 2: Well, I'm excited because I saw this and I kind

64
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 2: of thought, is this what it feels like in this

65
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 2: science world when you push back and people. I mean,

66
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: it's almost like people sort of tried to candle you.

67
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,040
Speaker 2: They were like, we don't want you going out there

68
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 2: and saying this stuff. But you were actually picking on

69
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 2: your own work. So explain a little bit about what happened.

70
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what I'm trying to do is I guess

71
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 4: draw attention to an issue that I see in scientific publishing,

72
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 4: and in particular these high profile scientific journals. So Nature

73
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 4: and Science are the two kind of most characteristic of

74
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,800
Speaker 4: being considered the word is high impact journals in science.

75
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,160
Speaker 4: And what I'm pointing out is that in climate science

76
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,320
Speaker 4: it's just a higher return on investment, or it's easier

77
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 4: to get your paper published in one of these high

78
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 4: profile venues, which is very desirable for researcher if you

79
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 4: kind of frame it so that it more or less

80
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 4: adheres to the mainstream narrative, which can more or less

81
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,600
Speaker 4: be described as you know, supporting the Paris Agreement, so

82
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,560
Speaker 4: supporting reducing greenhouse gas emissions such that we stay below say,

83
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 4: one point five degrees celsius about pre industrial levels. So

84
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 4: if you have a paper that kind of supports that,

85
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,039
Speaker 4: it's just an easier path to get a publication in

86
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 4: a venue like that. And I do want to explain

87
00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,159
Speaker 4: to people that publishing in venues like that is just

88
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,599
Speaker 4: extremely desirable from a researcher's perspective, So.

89
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 1: Why is that what happens if you get published them.

90
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 4: So they're considered the most prestigious journals. So, first of all,

91
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 4: being a researcher, the way that you are judged is

92
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,160
Speaker 4: your publication record, like that is the thing on your

93
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,280
Speaker 4: resume that people care about, and even more than that,

94
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 4: it's how much you're cited. And being published in one

95
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 4: of these journals means that your work is going to

96
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 4: be widely disseminated and it's going to get in front

97
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,279
Speaker 4: of the eyes of not only the general public and

98
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 4: the media, but other researchers who are then more likely

99
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 4: to cite it.

100
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,559
Speaker 3: And so then these journals can be very selective about

101
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 3: what they publish.

102
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 4: So Nature and Science both reject over ninety percent of

103
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,279
Speaker 4: studies that are submitted to them, and most of the

104
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 4: time it's not because of scientific reason or because the

105
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,719
Speaker 4: study is not robust enough, but it's because of editorial decisions.

106
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 4: So they basically are saying that this is not of

107
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 4: general interest enough to be worthy of Science or Nature.

108
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,960
Speaker 4: So just right there, that kind of tells you that, okay, researchers,

109
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,120
Speaker 4: this is highly competitive, it's highly desirable. Researchers are going

110
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 4: to be framing their research so that it maximizes their

111
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,159
Speaker 4: chances of getting into these journals.

112
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 2: And so you let me ask you this when you

113
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 2: say framing the research, because I mean, I think of

114
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 2: this from a media mind. So from a media mind,

115
00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 2: I know that there is the temptation and all often

116
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 2: times just people go with something that sounds scarier than

117
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 2: it is because fear cells or drama cells, and so

118
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 2: they create a story, a narrative that is a little

119
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 2: more dramatic than it truly is. We've had these little

120
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 2: media groups pop up on either side of the political

121
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,040
Speaker 2: aisle over the last I would say, fifteen years, and

122
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 2: it's really divided people. Do you think that there is

123
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 2: a I mean, I would think that wouldn't be the

124
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 2: case in science, But is there at all like this

125
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,159
Speaker 2: if you go in one direction, that might push people

126
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 2: toward thinking, while we're really close to some terrible damage

127
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,840
Speaker 2: happening to the country, if we don't move a certain way,

128
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 2: then you have a more of a likelihood of getting published.

129
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that that is absolutely the case. I

130
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 4: think that there's a very similar phenomenon going on with

131
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 4: the kind of it bleeds it leads type of phenomena

132
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 4: in journalism, and I see a lot of parallels in

133
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,480
Speaker 4: scientific publishing that if you and you can just kind

134
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,479
Speaker 4: of see this if you go so anyone can go

135
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 4: to Google scholar and uh, you know, put in the

136
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 4: phrases climate change in global warming, and then you can

137
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 4: do it selected by the source of from science and

138
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 4: nature and kind of go through the abstracts of these papers.

139
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 4: They're not like what you might expect that there that

140
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 4: they would be maybe you know, double blind hypothesis tests,

141
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 4: you know, randomized controlled experiments like you can do that

142
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 4: in medicine, where you're just going to say, okay, what's

143
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 4: the efficacy of this drug. We're going to test it

144
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 4: and we're going to report the results. And that's not

145
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 4: really what happens with climate impacts science. And there's a

146
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 4: practical reason for that. We don't have a second Earth

147
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 4: to conduct experiments on. But what what you'll see is

148
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 4: just much more of kind of persuasive arguments being made,

149
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 4: you know, backed up with quantitative analysis. But the whole

150
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 4: paper is, you know, climate change affects this, and usually

151
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,800
Speaker 4: it's a it's a negative impact from climate change, and

152
00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 4: here is all of our evidence for that, and so

153
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 4: it's not a situation where you know, it's a hypothesis

154
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 4: test and then we're just reporting the results, and so

155
00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 4: that is showing you that there's you know, just a

156
00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 4: lot of leeway and creativity from the researcher's perspective to

157
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 4: kind of frame. Oh, you know, we looked at this

158
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,679
Speaker 4: metric and that didn't really show, you know, a big effect.

159
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 3: So then we switched it to this metric.

160
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 4: We switch it to this metric, and then you know,

161
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 4: it's the it's the one that you find that then

162
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 4: ends up being the paper at.

163
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 3: The end of the day.

164
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,599
Speaker 2: But is this dangerous because then I see these activists

165
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 2: who are blocking roads and they're getting you know, we

166
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 2: had those two folks that were shot over seas just

167
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, and you know, they're they've had

168
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 2: to have their hands cut off because they put them

169
00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 2: into cement. All kinds of things because people are really

170
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 2: so emotionally upset about what is happening to the world

171
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 2: and to the climate. And one of the things that

172
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 2: people talk about quite often in the United States is

173
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,720
Speaker 2: the wildfires. I know that wildfires was what you wrote about.

174
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,160
Speaker 2: And we see these activists and even congressmen and women

175
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 2: who come out and say, you know, this is a

176
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 2: terrible disaster. We're losing all these homes, people are dying,

177
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 2: the forests are being ruined because of these wildfires, and

178
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 2: you say that there are other ways to mitigate wildfires.

179
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 2: That and it's not that you didn't want to include

180
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 2: that in your information. You just focused on one area

181
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 2: because you knew that that was the area that was

182
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,240
Speaker 2: likely to get more attention. But then, are we missing

183
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 2: out that we don't know that there are other ways

184
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,440
Speaker 2: to mitigate And are those folks who are activists missing

185
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 2: out and are they more concerned about this than they

186
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,320
Speaker 2: should be because there are ways to do things that

187
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 2: we don't know about. Does that make sense?

188
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

189
00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:03,199
Speaker 4: I think that a fuller picture is more informative of

190
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,560
Speaker 4: the situation that we're in. And there's different levels of that.

191
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 4: But when it comes to wildfires, what I talked about

192
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 4: is that the paper that I wrote focused exclusively on

193
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,640
Speaker 4: the impact of temperature change on wildfires, even though we

194
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 4: know that wildfires are the result of many causal factors

195
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,560
Speaker 4: and changes in the behavior are the result of many

196
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 4: things that are changing. So changes in population people living

197
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 4: in the wildland urban interface we call it, so that

198
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,800
Speaker 4: changes ignition patterns, and then the probably the most important

199
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 4: thing is changes in vegetation or fuel loads that we've

200
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,719
Speaker 4: had these ill advised policies to suppress all fires or

201
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,720
Speaker 4: put them out immediately, and so that has caused a

202
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,839
Speaker 4: century of vegetation to build up where it wouldn't be otherwise.

203
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,920
Speaker 4: It used to be that we had these low intensity,

204
00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 4: high frequency fires about every ten years of firewood and

205
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,080
Speaker 4: kind of clear out the vegetation, and then we got

206
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 4: into this situation where we suppressed all fires. So now

207
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,760
Speaker 4: we have this huge buildup of fuels, and so that

208
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 4: means when there are fires, they're much more intense and

209
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 4: much harder to fight. So that's this other important factor

210
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:22,320
Speaker 4: for wildfires. And so knowing that means that there's another

211
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 4: solution set available to you. Right, so if we go

212
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,079
Speaker 4: in and this is the you know, the White House's

213
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 4: plan as well, and the US Forest Services plan is

214
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 4: to treat much more of our forests, so to mechanically

215
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 4: thin and do prescribe burns in our forest to reduce

216
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 4: these fuel loads. That is another solution that's available to

217
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 4: us other than just reducing greenhouse gas emissions. And actually,

218
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 4: when you look at reducing greenhouse gas emissions, that has

219
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,000
Speaker 4: very little leverage in wildfire activity. Over the next several decades,

220
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,200
Speaker 4: like you only see those results essentially in the in

221
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 4: the twenty one hundreds. And so if you have this

222
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,679
Speaker 4: is the case with almost all climate impacts, that if

223
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 4: you have some problem now, the only way to address it,

224
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 4: you know, in our lifetimes, is to do something on

225
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 4: the ground practical, you know, some type of infrastructure or

226
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 4: something that's not just reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because reducing

227
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 4: greenhouse gas emissions is very important in the long term

228
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,119
Speaker 4: to stabilize the climate, but you just don't get the leverage.

229
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,960
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

230
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 2: the Tutor Dixon podcast. Obviously, it's a very contentious issue.

231
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 2: So you have people on one side and the other side,

232
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 2: and then like I said, there are people that are

233
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 2: in the black and white, like, no, it has to

234
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 2: be this way, it has to be this way. And

235
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes those people who are going, Okay, well,

236
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,080
Speaker 2: is there something happening in the climate, and do we

237
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,840
Speaker 2: have to do something here the story of in Michigan,

238
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 2: we just passed a bill saying zero emissions by twenty

239
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 2: forty and we're going to have all renewable energy.

240
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,600
Speaker 1: And I think that the average American goes, are you

241
00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 1: kidding me?

242
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 2: It's impossible. And so when it feels totally impossible and

243
00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,679
Speaker 2: there's not a written out plan of Okay, here's how

244
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,360
Speaker 2: we're going to get here, that's what makes people mad

245
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,640
Speaker 2: and they go, these people are insane and I'm not

246
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,080
Speaker 2: going to listen to anything on climate.

247
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,440
Speaker 1: Well, that's harmful too.

248
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I come from the foundry industry. I know

249
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 2: we constantly involved what we did and how we not

250
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 2: only poured metal but got the scrap take care of

251
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 2: our scrap yard. Everything was changing over the years that

252
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 2: my father and I worked in the foundry industry. You know,

253
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,320
Speaker 2: people don't realize behind the scenes there are a lot

254
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,120
Speaker 2: of people doing things like that to make things cleaner,

255
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 2: to make sure that we are taking care of the environment.

256
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,079
Speaker 2: But I think when you hear we're going to go

257
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,320
Speaker 2: to nothing overnight, people just throw up their hands and go,

258
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 2: it's impossible. So what is your answer to that?

259
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it is.

260
00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 4: It's an extremely difficult problem, the entire climate change issue,

261
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,560
Speaker 4: and so I don't have a simple answer. But what

262
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,560
Speaker 4: I'm saying is that I think much right now, Yes,

263
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 4: is that I just think the literature is incomplete it's

264
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,920
Speaker 4: it's very narrowly focused on negative impacts from the side

265
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 4: effects of our current energy and agricultural systems. And so

266
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 4: I think that makes people kind of go crazy because

267
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 4: they they see, Okay, all of these papers are coming

268
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 4: out all the time showing how bad our energy and

269
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 4: agricultural systems are, and so why are we not doing

270
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 4: anything about it? This is so crazy, like the politicians

271
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 4: must be, you know, just completely bought off by fossil

272
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 4: fuel interest and all that. But it's really just an

273
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 4: incomplete literature that there's there's not a bunch of studies

274
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,960
Speaker 4: on the negative impacts of restricting energy use, and there

275
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 4: could be. I mean, it's that's a cultural thing within

276
00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 4: the within the research community. It's not dictated by the

277
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 4: underlying data necessarily. And then and I'm also pointing out

278
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 4: just a gap in research that really leans into historical

279
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 4: increases in resilience of human well being. So we've seen,

280
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,320
Speaker 4: you know, about a degree celsius warming over the past

281
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,920
Speaker 4: fifty years, and we're expecting about a degree about one

282
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 4: point twenty five degrees celsius over the next fifty years.

283
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 3: But if we look over the past.

284
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 4: Fifty years, almost all climate sensitive aspects of society have

285
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 4: been going in good directions and positive directions. We have

286
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 4: you know, globally, we have more food and more access

287
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 4: to clean water, and disaster deaths are way down, and

288
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 4: dusts from extreme cold aer down because it's getting warmer,

289
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,320
Speaker 4: and even from extreme heat are down because of you know,

290
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,560
Speaker 4: increased access to air conditioning. So all these things this

291
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 4: has been undergirded by fossil fueled industrialization, and so that

292
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 4: is something that the climate science community needs to grapple with,

293
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 4: is to to understand that all of these increases in

294
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 4: resilience have been because of you know, energy, and historically

295
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 4: has been mostly fossil fuels. And so that I think

296
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 4: that that kind of gap in the literature is it

297
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 4: kind of undermines credibility in the entire climate science enterprise.

298
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 4: So if that was acknowledged more, then then you can

299
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 4: move on to the next step of saying, but in

300
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 4: the long run, we see these negative impacts, and so

301
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 4: then we do need to transition in the long run,

302
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 4: But we have to be you know, very careful about

303
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 4: restricting energy options for humanity because that just by definition

304
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,560
Speaker 4: has a strong potential to harm human well being, especially

305
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 4: in the developing, you know, world the low income countries

306
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 4: where there's there's three billion people on Earth that are

307
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 4: in extreme energy poverty, and the quickest way to make

308
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 4: them resilient to the climate is to have them, you know,

309
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 4: be be to have economic development, which entails increase in

310
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 4: energy use and in the near term, increase in CO

311
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,240
Speaker 4: two emissions, which.

312
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 1: You would think likely.

313
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,440
Speaker 2: A lot of the folks who are activists for clean

314
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 2: climate are also activists for people who are less fortunate

315
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 2: and would want that, and that is a lack of information.

316
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 2: I mean, what I'm hearing from you is that there's

317
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 2: a gap in information that the American people, but also

318
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 2: maybe globally that people aren't seeing because it's not necessarily

319
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 2: the hot item to print.

320
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: And the question that I have there.

321
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 2: As you talked about politicians being bought off, what is

322
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 2: it that where is I mean, there has to be

323
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,119
Speaker 2: some money trail to some lobby or something that says,

324
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,239
Speaker 2: we want this journal to come out and say this

325
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 2: because it looks good for what we want to do

326
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: in government, and this is potentially something that your politicians

327
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,919
Speaker 2: know nothing about. I mean you oftentimes I think we

328
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,679
Speaker 2: oftentimes think that the politicians know everything that goes on

329
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, but organizations and industries work outside of

330
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,880
Speaker 2: that to impact what happens in government too. And this

331
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:14,920
Speaker 2: is an interesting way to do it, because if you

332
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 2: can change the human mind on something and make the

333
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,439
Speaker 2: people believe, they will push the politicians to go that direction.

334
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 2: So is there some sort of collusion behind the scenes

335
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 2: somewhere where this is a good business for someone.

336
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 4: Probably. I don't have any personal anecdotes or experience with that.

337
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 4: I mean, mostly of what I see, there's no conspiracies.

338
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 4: It's just kind of what I'm pointing out is just

339
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 4: is everything's out in the open. It's cultural, and it's

340
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 4: just the way people kind of self select into the

341
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 4: field of climate science and then observe, you know, like okay,

342
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 4: so you know, if you want to publish in Science

343
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 4: or Nature on climate change, one way to to understand

344
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 4: how you should frame your research to do that would

345
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 4: just be to listen to the leadership of the journals.

346
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 4: So the editor in chief of Science, for example, wrote

347
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 4: an op ed in Science called The Beyond two Degree Inferno,

348
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 4: which is full of kind of apocalyptic language and religious

349
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 4: language and compares humans to sinners and talks about trading

350
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 4: off economy. You know that, you know, we will be

351
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 4: punished for our economic development that harms the earth. And

352
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 4: so just reading that as a scientist, that's sending you

353
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 4: a pretty good signal about the type of research that

354
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 4: science maybe wants to publish. And similarly, Nature officially as

355
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 4: an organization, endorsed Joe Biden in the twenty twenty election,

356
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 4: and one of the reasons for that was his climate policies.

357
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 4: And so again this is these organizations are laying their

358
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 4: cards out that they're very much endorsing these political goals,

359
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,160
Speaker 4: and so then that that solicits more research than along

360
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 4: those same lines. Because researchers want.

361
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 2: To to please the editors, right, you want to make

362
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: sure you get in there. So when you found this out,

363
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously you went into this field when you

364
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 2: were young and you wanted to study I mean I

365
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 2: say that you're still very young, obviously, but you wanted

366
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 2: to get into this.

367
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 1: Were you surprised when you got.

368
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 2: Into it and you started studying climate. Were you surprised

369
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 2: by what you learned and that there were these other options?

370
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 2: Were you surprised that the doom you had heard growing

371
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: up was maybe there's a there is a dark cloud

372
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 2: out there, but there are many ways to brighten the

373
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 2: skies then, more than just one.

374
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say I was surprised. I was particularly

375
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,360
Speaker 4: surprised when I started teaching climate science and I started

376
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 4: getting to the portion of the class where you're supposed

377
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 4: to kind of teach about the impacts, and I was

378
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 4: just continuously unimpressed when I went into every single impact

379
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 4: and looked at it in detail and kind of compared

380
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 4: the type of things that I see in headlines versus

381
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 4: the actual underlying data or what the actual you know,

382
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,959
Speaker 4: study says that kind of over and over again. I

383
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 4: was really taken aback by how exaggerated it is in

384
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 4: the in the media versus what the what the data

385
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 4: actually shows. And so that was something that was striking

386
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 4: to me. And so that's caused me recently to kind

387
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 4: of change my orientation much more to be critical of

388
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 4: the scientific literature and of coverage of the scientific literature.

389
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 4: And that's what made me decide to criticize my own

390
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 4: paper because I was kind of operating in two different modes.

391
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: I was operating as in.

392
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 4: The mode of, Okay, I'm a climate scientist who has

393
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 4: to publish on the climate impacts on various things, including wildfires,

394
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 4: and so that's what this paper is on. And then separately,

395
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 4: I was also kind of criticizing this whole thing, and

396
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 4: so I didn't submit my paper with any intention of

397
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 4: criticizing it. But then once it was basically at the

398
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 4: finish line, I decided that I couldn't just be critical

399
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 4: of other people's work, and I had to be critical

400
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 4: of my own work as well and point out that

401
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 4: it's it's just like it's part of a larger pattern.

402
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: There's nothing wrong with the paper itself because it says everything.

403
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: It says that all the assumption, you know, it lays

404
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 4: out all the assumptions correctly within the paper. But it's

405
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 4: what I'm pointing out is that many people are doing

406
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 4: this kind of narrow focus on the climate change impact

407
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 4: on something that's negative, and then that leaves out the

408
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 4: big picture, the full picture in aggregation.

409
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

410
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: the Tutor Dixon podcast. We hear all the time that

411
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: there are folks that are in this bucket of the

412
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: world is ending in five to ten years, and then

413
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: there are people who are afraid to stand up and

414
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 2: say no. There are other options out there. I think

415
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: we've heard this with medical science as well, where it's like, well,

416
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: if I don't say this, I'm not getting the big grant.

417
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: I know that, So to get the big grant to

418
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 2: do more research, I have to say this to get it.

419
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: What was the reaction of your peers.

420
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: Because you did get some people attacking you, but it

421
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: sounds like some people were like, hey.

422
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 4: Thanks, yeah, And I think that's the problem the way

423
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 4: that you whispered there. Because so I got a lot

424
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 4: of I got a lot of very positive reaction in

425
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: my inbox, and a lot of positive reaction in just

426
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 4: face to face communication, but you know, a lot of

427
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 4: the reaction publicly was very negative. A lot of you know,

428
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 4: blogs and stories and especially on Twitter from a very

429
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 4: high profile colleagues very negative, a lot of ad hominem attacks.

430
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: And I think that that's unfortunate. That's all part of

431
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 4: the phenomenon that I'm highlighting here is that my colleagues

432
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 4: who maybe would agree with me and who would be

433
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 4: compelled to write me a private email, are not compelled

434
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 4: to say anything publicly because of this kind of enforcement

435
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 4: of you know, essentially the stay on track with the

436
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 4: mainstream you know, narrative on this, and so that means

437
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 4: that there's self cens censorship going on, and that's unfortunate

438
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: because that's just gonna that's gonna be part of this

439
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 4: self reinforcing feedback that causes the message to be overly narrow.

440
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: I think it's so impressive that you did it, though,

441
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: and that you continue to talk about it, because that,

442
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 2: I think is what will.

443
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: Get people on board to make changes.

444
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: Like I said, I think there are so many people

445
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: out there that hear these radical climate messages and they're like, oh, well,

446
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: if that's the case, then why do anything, And it

447
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: turns them away, and so you have this great divide.

448
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 2: But if I had someone coming to me like you

449
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: are and saying, hey, there are ways to prevent wildfires.

450
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: There are different ways, and we have to look at

451
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 2: it all these different ways. Any other business person does

452
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: that too. Okay, what's the best strategy. I've got to

453
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: lay it out and say there are different ways to

454
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: get here. This is the long term plan. But in

455
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: the meantime, before we can get to that, we do this.

456
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 2: And that's where I think that people have really been

457
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: turned off by the climate message because the average person

458
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: living their life is like, you know what, I can't

459
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: build my house of straw, have solar panel on the

460
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: top of it, and put all of my food in

461
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: a basket that I'm going to then garden from, you know,

462
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: because it's overwhelming when you're told that that's how you

463
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: because we've never lived that way. So I just say,

464
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: continue to do this because I think that's where real

465
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 2: true change will happen.

466
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: That's where people.

467
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: Will go, Okay, this is what we can do because,

468
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: like I said, businesses are already there.

469
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: Businesses are already looking at this stuff, and they have

470
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: experts coming.

471
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: We had environmental expert that worked at the company and

472
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: came in and was like, Okay, we can do this differently,

473
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: constantly interfacing with the state, with the environmental people to

474
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 2: say we want to make some changes here to make

475
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: it better for the lake, to make it better for

476
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: this You know, I just think.

477
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: That if more people were saying what you're.

478
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: Saying, we would get a lot more people buying into

479
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: a tweak here and a tweak there. Will make a

480
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: huge difference in a few years, don't you think.

481
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that just the policymakers and decision makers

482
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 4: and the public. You know should have as much information

483
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 4: as possible, and so when it comes to climate impacts,

484
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 4: there's a lot more we can do than just reducing

485
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 4: greenhouse gas emissions. But it is important, I think, for

486
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 4: people to know that in order to stabilize global climate,

487
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 4: we do need to reduce, in particular CO two emissions

488
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 4: to essentially zero. But it's a multi decade this is

489
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 4: something that's going to be happening our entire lives, like

490
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 4: everyone who's alive today. It's not something that you can

491
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: just go and pass the next legislation on EVS or something,

492
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: because it involves the entire globe, and it involves just

493
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 4: an extreme amount of technological change and transition over a

494
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 4: long period of time. And so those that reducing greenhouse

495
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: gas emissions in the long term is almost I considered

496
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 4: it almost a separate issue.

497
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 3: Than deal with climate impacts in the here and now.

498
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: So before I let you go, I have to ask

499
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: you one thing because this has always kind of irked me,

500
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: and maybe you're going to tell me I'm completely wrong

501
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: on this, But when it comes to EVS, the process

502
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: to make these batteries is so environmentally damaging, and then

503
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: you have this battery that you have nothing to do

504
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: with once the car has gone bad, and once the

505
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 2: battery goes bad, the whole car goes bad. How is

506
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: that a better Do we ever have something where we go, man,

507
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: maybe this is the solution, and it actually turns out

508
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: that that's not the solution, it's actually worse.

509
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 4: So sure, yeah, every single technology has trade offs. And

510
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: you know you're talking about with renewable energy with not

511
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: only batteries but wind and solar, increasing mining by a lot,

512
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 4: which has a lot of local negative environmental impacts. And

513
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: so I'm not here to tell you I know the

514
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 4: exact right cost benefit analysis for all of the alternatives

515
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 4: for all technologies, but I do think that they should

516
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 4: all be considered. The issue with greenhouse gas emissions is

517
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 4: that they just with CO two, it just accumulates in

518
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 4: the atmosphere. So we're not in a steady state right now.

519
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: The more that we burn gasoline for so using internal

520
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 4: combustion engine cars, the more that just accumulates in the atmosphere,

521
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 4: and so that does need to be eventually eliminated to

522
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 4: stabilize the climate. But yeah, we're going there's going to

523
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 4: be trade offs then with other negative environmental impacts that

524
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 4: then we have to deal with.

525
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: What about this like CO two capturing and pushing it

526
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: into the earth and that kind of stuff.

527
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: Is that a real thing.

528
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, Carbon capturing storage can be part of the solution

529
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 4: as well. I think it's going to be nuclear, it's

530
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: going to be enhanced geothermal, it's going to be some

531
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 4: wind and solar and batteries. It's going to be kind

532
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: of an all of above, all of the above strategy

533
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 4: for energy.

534
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: All right, Well, the next time we have energy question,

535
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: we're bringing you on, or a climate question in general,

536
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: because obviously there's new things coming out all the time,

537
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people on the right

538
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: side of the aisle are very skeptical. So it's good

539
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: to have it explained. I appreciate you coming on and

540
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: talking to us. It was really nice to meet you,

541
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: Patrick Brown, our climate scientist.

542
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

543
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, and thank you.

544
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: All for joining us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. As always,

545
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: for this episode and others, go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com.

546
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: You can subscribe right there, or head over to the

547
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts

548
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: and join us the next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast,

549
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: have a blessing