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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards. We're all doing

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Speaker 2: just so good. Uh, just so good. I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: Jesus grifters, and there Jesus grifting with one of my

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Speaker 2: very favorite people and guests, the great Samantha McVeigh. Samantha,

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Speaker 2: how are you doing?

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Speaker 3: I am here, you're here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you've just been talking about how how tired and

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Speaker 2: slightly broken we all are already this year.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh h yeah, but hey, we exist.

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Speaker 2: We're still alive technically, you know, not in the ways

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Speaker 2: that matter, maybe, but like technically you know, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: just like well, actually not at all. Like Susan Alamo,

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Speaker 2: because she's just dead as hell. She is super fucking dead.

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Speaker 3: You told me a few times that she is good

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Speaker 3: and dead. She is.

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Speaker 2: She is real dead. Oh you are. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you're ready for the amount of dead. This lady

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Speaker 2: is just the deadest, uh, Samantha, are you ready to

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Speaker 2: get back into it?

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Speaker 3: Let's go.

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Speaker 2: So you're a cult leader and your wife, the Lamb

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Speaker 2: of God, has died, even though you both told everyone

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Speaker 2: on your TV show God would protect her from that

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Speaker 2: sort of pedestrian end because the world can't end unless

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Speaker 2: you're both alive, right, So what do you do when

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Speaker 2: she passes?

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Speaker 1: On?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 4: Put?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you put sunglasses on her.

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Speaker 2: You did guess weekend at Bernie's, And that's what they do.

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Speaker 2: It's I you are correct, because basically what they do

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Speaker 2: is he has her embalmed, He brings her corpse home

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Speaker 2: and he late, yeah, yeah, he puts it on a

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Speaker 2: table and he's going to have his followers pray over

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Speaker 2: it for days on end. Right, that's the that's the plan.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 3: Tell me she's in that white suit though, like she

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Speaker 3: Lea's in that suit.

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Speaker 2: No, she's in her wedding dress. Does that make it worse?

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Speaker 2: Is that creepier or less creepy?

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Speaker 3: That's just setting up for a haunting mm hmm, like unhaunted.

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Speaker 2: Well, and the way it's described to me is he

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Speaker 2: had he ordered them to dress her corpse in its

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Speaker 2: wedding dress. So I don't think she came in that dress.

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Speaker 2: He just makes his followers put her in it. It's

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Speaker 2: not great.

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Speaker 3: Did he did he did like remarry her like renewed

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Speaker 3: vowels there too. I mean there's a lot that I'm I.

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Speaker 2: Think he was waiting for her to be resurrected to

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 3: Right, Uh, you got to marry her for the fifth time, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he has the fourth or fifth time. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 2: I will admit that the relationship dynamics of the Alamos

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Speaker 2: are a little bit murky to me, But my interpretation

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Speaker 2: is that while she was alive, Susan did a lot

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Speaker 2: of work to keep Tony on something that resembled an

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Speaker 2: even keel. He's still doing some sex crimes, right, but

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Speaker 2: a lot less than he will be once she dies.

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Speaker 2: Because she is she's exerting some control to limit his behavior, right,

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Speaker 2: And once she is gone, there is no one left

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Speaker 2: to keep this man in check, and he loses his

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Speaker 2: fucking mind. Like he goes from well not from zero,

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Speaker 2: he's at like fifty five, but he goes up to

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Speaker 2: like one hundred and twenty very quickly.

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Speaker 3: I feel like he's just waiting for his moment though.

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Speaker 3: Is it one of those things like yeah, now I'm

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Speaker 3: doing this, this is it, this is my time, And

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Speaker 3: then it just becomes trauma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah for a lot of people. And it's going

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Speaker 2: to start with some dead body related trauma because yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah it's gross. So he has Susan's body taken to

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Speaker 2: the cult's dining room, and his followers are ordered to

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Speaker 2: take shifts praying for her resurrection, so that there's people

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Speaker 2: praying for her to be resurrected twenty four hours a day.

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Speaker 2: Cult funds are used to engage in nearby florists to

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Speaker 2: deliver flowers every day, probably to deal with the smell.

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Speaker 3: Right, I was gonna ask about that, but you know, yeah, yeah, it's.

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Speaker 2: Not great, Sam, it's not great. One remember later recalled

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Speaker 2: to a reporter, I believe one percent that she was

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Speaker 2: going to rise from the dead. On their local access

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Speaker 2: TV show, Tony gave daily sermons promising his wife would

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Speaker 2: be reborn any day now. It became a joke for

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Speaker 2: local radio DJs, who reported on this while repeatedly playing

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Speaker 2: wake Up Little Susie. That's some good DJ. That's some

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Speaker 2: good radio DJ shade.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you can yourself.

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Speaker 2: No, you can just see how you'd cut this together

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Speaker 2: though in like the HBO version of this story, you know,

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Speaker 2: do a little montage or something. Unfortunately, it also gets

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Speaker 2: very creepy, very fast, because one thing that Tony demands

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Speaker 2: is he wants the children in the cult. He makes

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Speaker 2: them cuddle with Susan's body at night. Yeah, I know

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Speaker 2: this is this is bad.

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Speaker 3: What again, he's serial killers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Those those kids went through it. We'll say that much, right.

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Speaker 2: One of them, Elijah Franco, weeks later said she smelled,

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Speaker 2: she was cold and really really hard. She was dead,

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Speaker 2: which I feel like we didn't need at the end there,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it's just good to reinforce that to yourself

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Speaker 2: when you've been told for six months that she's alive.

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Speaker 3: So was this doing an interview like, yeah, you're so

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Speaker 3: like you slept with a dead body? Tell us about

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Speaker 3: that experience you grew up with thom Sorry, yeah, no, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Think that that's basically what it was. Is like because

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Speaker 2: eventually there are court cases and eventually there's prosecution, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of these kids get out and then go

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Speaker 2: talk to the media about like because these are the

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Speaker 2: folks who were not they were true believers in that

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Speaker 2: they were kids raised in this cult. But they also

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Speaker 2: they're not converts. Right. If you grow up, you know,

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Speaker 2: in a different religion somewhere, and you convert to something

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Speaker 2: like this, you tend to stick with it for a

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Speaker 2: long time, whereas a lot of these kids raised in this,

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Speaker 2: like as soon as they can, Like, I'm getting the

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Speaker 2: fuck out of this place. The fuck is wrong with

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Speaker 2: these people and my parents Jesus. Yeah, so this goes on,

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Speaker 2: This whole corpse thing goes on for six months.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was waiting for six days.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, like a like a wildly long time,

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Speaker 2: and the body was okay, no, no, no, it's not okay.

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Speaker 2: It's it's very, very gross. Greta Allendorff writes that every

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Speaker 2: day Susan remained dead, the children were beaten. So it's

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Speaker 2: even worse than just the things about this that are

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Speaker 2: obviously gross, because the kids are being physically punished for

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Speaker 2: not bringing this woman back from the dead. Good cult stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the.

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Speaker 2: Dead lady.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what's supposed to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, she was supposed to come back to Tony.

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Speaker 3: Like like by the kids like laying on her.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think something like that. I think something like that.

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Speaker 3: Oh, this is where I need adult supervision. What the hell?

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Speaker 2: What the fuck right? No, this is we are now

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Speaker 2: in rarefied colt Air. We do a lot of cults,

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Speaker 2: but this is some of the cultiest cult stuff we've

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Speaker 2: ever culted on this podcast. Yeah, fascinating stuff, incredible work Tony. Eventually,

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Speaker 2: and this is you know, you got to give him

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Speaker 2: some credit for personal growth. He comes to accept that

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Speaker 2: his wife is dead, right you know, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was joking. That's not great. I mean, I guess it is.

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Speaker 2: But you don't have to give breaks Amos conceding, So

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Speaker 2: he has his followers build an elaborate mausoleum for her,

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Speaker 2: which included a grave for him. So apparently at this

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Speaker 2: point he came to accept his own mortality. Now that

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Speaker 2: susan And was gone, he began to adapt other parts

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Speaker 2: of his life to this new reality, which ended with

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Speaker 2: him launching a new and shockingly successful business for the ministry.

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Speaker 2: You're not ready for wear this head, Samantha. I was

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Speaker 2: not ready for where this head. This is a unique

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Speaker 2: cult business, right. We talked about cult businesses a lot

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Speaker 2: on this show. Restaurants are common, right, bands are weirdly common.

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Speaker 2: You know, the Mansons tried to do that, right, you get,

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Speaker 2: I mean, Tony Alamo does kind of that version of things. Uh,

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Speaker 2: fucking David Koresh was a musician, you know, right. What's

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Speaker 2: weird is like launching through your cult an incredibly popular

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Speaker 2: fashion brand. That is beloved by the most famous people

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Speaker 2: on earth, which is what Tony does next. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: shocking stuff.

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Speaker 3: He launches a clothing brand.

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Speaker 2: He does he does high fashion too. It's extremely successful.

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Speaker 2: How successful. Yeah, it's Hollister. This is where Hollister comes from.

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Speaker 2: Tony Alamo invented Hollister. No, so the the answer like,

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Speaker 2: because Tony's got to ask himself, Hey, you know, as

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Speaker 2: a pedophile cult leader who has just been reminded of

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Speaker 2: his mortality, what's the next thing to do? And the answer,

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Speaker 2: obviously is forced children to labor for free manufacturing high

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Speaker 2: quality but dazzled denim vests and jackets for celebrities, which

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Speaker 2: is exactly what he does. They are These have like

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Speaker 2: in rhinestones and Swarovsky diamonds, like the La skyline on them,

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Speaker 2: or like Nashville. They are the tackiest fucking jackets that

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Speaker 2: have ever been made. I think some of them are

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Speaker 2: stone wars of them are clearly like black denim or leather.

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Speaker 2: Even they're not just denim, but there's a lot of denim. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is this is by now we're in the eighties, right, maybe.

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Speaker 3: Dazzel, but Dazzle did their thing. Yeah, so this makes sense,

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Speaker 3: also is kind of horrifying. Yeah, who wore this?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Everyone? So he designs each product himself and sells

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Speaker 2: them under the brand name Tony Alamo of Nashville. And

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Speaker 2: despite that name, their big market is in Hollywood, particularly

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Speaker 2: rich and famous people who wanted clothing that delivered a

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Speaker 2: little bit of Southern charm and credibility. Tony Alamo jackets

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Speaker 2: took off initially with the Grand Ole Opry set, but

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Speaker 2: in short order they become like the most desired fashion

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Speaker 2: item in the music industry. According to an article by

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Speaker 2: Lindy Fraser of The Chantel Clear, Alamo said he used

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Speaker 2: children when he realized their quote hands were the perfect

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Speaker 2: size to embellish the jackets with tiny rhinestones.

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Speaker 3: Now why do they all say this?

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Speaker 2: Given all of that, it might not surprise you to

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Speaker 2: hear that one of the brand's biggest fans was a

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Speaker 2: man famous for being responsible around small children. Have you

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Speaker 2: guessed who it is?

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Speaker 3: No, I can't.

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Speaker 2: Michael Jackson. That's right, baby, And in fact, if you

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Speaker 2: want the most famous touchstone, Michael Jackson wears a Tony

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Speaker 2: Alamo jacket on the cover of Bad That's a Tony

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Speaker 2: Alamo original. On the cover of Bad.

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Speaker 3: There's so many things to this.

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Speaker 2: Why Oh well, I think there's a couple of reasons why,

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Speaker 2: given some things that we've learned about Michael in the

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Speaker 2: intervening years. But it is when I realized it was

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Speaker 2: that he the jacket from Bad was a Tony Alamo

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Speaker 2: er blew my fucking mind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's gonna take me a minute.

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Speaker 2: That's gonna take a second. Right.

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Speaker 3: The fact that that means he had to have sold

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Speaker 3: so many more after the pot.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh. These are a massive brand. These

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Speaker 2: are incredibly successful, and Michael is the most famous person

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Speaker 2: on earth at this point in like the fucking mid

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Speaker 2: early to mid eighties, so he is probably the most

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Speaker 2: famous person to wear a Tony Alamo original. But he's

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Speaker 2: got real competition. And I want to quote from an

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Speaker 2: article on the brand in the La Times. He makes

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Speaker 2: jackets for all the stars, said Shirley Blinner, a saleswoman

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Speaker 2: at Twist, a boutique on Melrose Avenue, where three Alamo

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Speaker 2: jackets were on sale last week for prices ranging from

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Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty dollars to six hundred and eighty dollars.

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Speaker 2: Blinner pointed to a display of photographs behind the cash

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Speaker 2: register of mister T, Mike Tyson, Hulk Cogan, and Dolly Parton,

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Speaker 2: all wearing what appeared to be a Lamo design jackets.

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Speaker 3: I was waiting for her name, but by mister T

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Speaker 3: to cut off gene.

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Speaker 2: Mister T. Oh, oh my god, Samantha. I would not

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Speaker 2: be doing my job as the host of this podcast

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Speaker 2: if I did not show you the picture I have

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Speaker 2: of mister T wearing a Tony Alamo original standing next

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Speaker 2: to Tony Alamo himself. Hmmm, oh man, it is if

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Speaker 2: you're a big mister T fan like I am, a

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Speaker 2: harsh moment of the soul here look at them.

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Speaker 3: Look at the two of them together.

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Speaker 2: That him, that's him. That's Tony.

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Speaker 3: Off brand like country musicians, like he looks like Haggard,

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Speaker 3: Like the.

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Speaker 2: Hell if Merle Haggard had let his drinking get even

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Speaker 2: more away from him, right, like, yeah, if Merle Haggard

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Speaker 2: had been doing his body weight in cocaine. Yeah. So

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Speaker 2: there's this picture. They're both wearing these just I gotta say,

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Speaker 2: hideous denim jackets like these are the Michael's you know,

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Speaker 2: the jacket from Bad looks good on Michael, you know,

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Speaker 2: like that's that's a that's a that's a look iconic.

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Speaker 2: I do not understand these denim jackets that mister T

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Speaker 2: and Tony are wearing.

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Speaker 3: Here again, mister T, I remember him with a cut

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Speaker 3: off jean jacket, Like that's what I am picturing.

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Speaker 4: When you say, mister it's like American. Yeah, no, it's

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Speaker 4: not a huge leap, right, And this is mister T

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Speaker 4: younger maybe certainly worst judgment. Let's all assume that modern

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Speaker 4: mister T wouldn't make this same mistake. But yeah, the

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Speaker 4: picture I've got, which will we'll put up that this

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Speaker 4: will probably be the background of one of the parts

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Speaker 4: of this episode. But it just says mister T pictured

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Speaker 4: here with pastor Tony Alamo. Both are wearing Tony Alamo

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Speaker 4: designer jackets, which are worn by thousands of actors, entertainers,

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Speaker 4: recording artists, sports figures, presidents, politicians, kings, queens, princes, princesses,

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Speaker 4: and others who are able to afford them. I don't

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Speaker 4: know which presidents wore the these. I haven't found that information,

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Speaker 4: but I can. I'm very curious.

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Speaker 2: Prince Charleston, Queen Elizabeth has one of these things. But

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Speaker 2: Queen Elizabeth had it because she would not buy a

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Speaker 2: jacket if she didn't know child labor had gone into it.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was the question. How is it market

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Speaker 3: It was? It marketed as just a hands owned from

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Speaker 3: this church.

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Speaker 2: It's marketed with that line. Their little hands can put

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Speaker 2: the ryanstones on best.

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Speaker 3: The only way we could fit the tiny stones on

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Speaker 3: there above the.

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Speaker 2: Tag we don't pay the children.

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Speaker 3: They pay us by Yeah, they pay us with their labor,

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Speaker 3: you know, for with dead bodies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and cuddling with dead bodies. Now. In addition

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Speaker 2: to jackets, Alamo's clothing line sold sharkskin boots, leopard skin jackets,

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Speaker 2: and sequin gowns, often including Swarovski crystals and diamonds as

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Speaker 2: a koutramas. To beyond that, his ministry expanded to control

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Speaker 2: a string of gas stations in the area around the

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Speaker 2: towns of Dire and Alma, Alabama. They ran a hog farm,

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Speaker 2: grocery stores, and a concert venue, as well as a

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Speaker 2: restaurant where a young Bill Clinton once watched Dolly Parton perform.

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Speaker 2: The number of famous people who are just like bit

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Speaker 2: parts in the fucking Tony Alamo story unreal.

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Speaker 3: So did people not realize it was a cult. They

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Speaker 3: just assumed it was just a foundation and a children's

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Speaker 3: home or like a halfway house type of thing at

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Speaker 3: the at this point.

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Speaker 2: At this point, there are some people who have left.

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Speaker 2: If you really wanted to look, you could find some

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Speaker 2: al legations, right, but there's no lawsuits yet, no one

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Speaker 2: like the the the There aren't any like major cases

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Speaker 2: about like the worst things. There's this is right around

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Speaker 2: the period of time where there are some lawsuits about them,

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Speaker 2: like not paying workers, but the the worst stuff hasn't

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Speaker 2: really come out yet. Sore that said, when it does,

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Speaker 2: they keep selling the jackets. So I'm not letting anyone

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Speaker 2: off the hook for the fucking jacket thing because they

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Speaker 2: keep being a popular product even when he's on the

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Speaker 2: run from the FBI as well done. Really yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: it's amazing stuff.

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Speaker 3: It is still named then jacket Jacket Company, and people like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I really need that. He's they're not gonna make it anymore.

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Speaker 3: I have to have one. It's a little bit of addition, Sam.

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Speaker 2: He think about it this way, if if Osama bin

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Speaker 2: Laden had sewn had like been selling jinkos while he

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Speaker 2: was on the run, I would have wanted a pair

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Speaker 2: of those jinkos, the bin laden jinkosh my go.

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Speaker 3: I mean, maybe you could resurrect him from the dead.

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Speaker 3: All you gotta do is cuddle him.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I think we can write this work for you.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to go to the sea. In his

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Speaker 2: two thousand and five book My Life, Clinton described Tony

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Speaker 2: Alamo as Roy Orbison on speed, a description that doesn't

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Speaker 2: make a lot of sense to me, because we listened

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Speaker 2: to him and he's not a fast singing or speaking guy.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why he just yeah.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he needs to speed, right. Oh no, that's what

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Speaker 3: he sounds like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what he sounds like. And he kind of

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Speaker 2: sounds like a slower Johnny Cash to me, who also

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Speaker 2: sucks at singing. Anyway, I don't know why Bill describes

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Speaker 2: him this way.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we heard him preach.

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Speaker 2: I have heard him preach, and.

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Speaker 3: So he's still that slow.

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Speaker 2: He's faster, but he's not like a as somebody's watched

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Speaker 2: a lot of like preachers who are definitely coke feeds.

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Speaker 2: He's not like that fast right spirit. And I was

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Speaker 2: gonna say, maybe Bill Clinton doesn't know much about speed,

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Speaker 2: but Bill Clinton definitely knew a lot about speed. Young

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Speaker 2: Bill couldn't do it. Knew a little bit about speed.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you that much right now.

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Speaker 3: He knows a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he knows a lot of things you shouldn't. So

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Speaker 2: Tony may not have been on speed, but he did

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Speaker 2: demand speed from his laborers, who, from early childhood on

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Speaker 2: were dosed with vitamins and massive amounts of caffeine in

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Speaker 2: order to meet tight labor deadlines. While he lounged by

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Speaker 2: the heart shaped pool he and Susan had purchased with

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Speaker 2: his new child brides. We'll get to that, his follower

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Speaker 2: slept in sleeping bags on the floor in crowded meeting rooms.

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Speaker 2: Workers owned five dollars a day. Shifts could last as

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Speaker 2: long as twenty hours. I think there were just twelve

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Speaker 2: to fifteen on average. But you know, when there's a

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Speaker 2: big when mister T needs a bunch of jackets, you know,

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Speaker 2: you make that shit happen.

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Speaker 3: You gotta make it happen.

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Speaker 2: You've got to make it.

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Speaker 3: Calls, you got show coming come.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, within a few years of Susan passing, Tony

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Speaker 2: started seeking companionship, and while Susan had to begin been

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Speaker 2: like ten years older than him. Chris's experience that Susan's

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Speaker 2: daughter had been an early because again Tony rapes her, right,

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Speaker 2: and that was an when she's like fourteen or fifteen,

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Speaker 2: that was an early warning that Tony's preferences skewed much younger.

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Speaker 2: And he starts chaking taking child brides. I think he

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Speaker 2: starts with sixteen seventeen year olds, but like every year,

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Speaker 2: he'll go down a couple of years in terms of

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Speaker 2: like what's acceptable to him, right, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: get very young, right. An article for THHV two News

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Speaker 2: notes quote in an old radio program, Alama once said

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Speaker 2: that when women start their periods, then they are women.

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Speaker 2: According to God's word, they should be able to be

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Speaker 2: married at thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and in some cases if

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Speaker 2: they have menstruateed already at twelve years old. So like

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Speaker 2: capital P pedophile, we're talking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah for sure, but you know, this does go along

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Speaker 3: the biblical ideals. And that's also why a lot of

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Speaker 3: the states in the US have not banned child Yeah. So,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure Arkansas is probably one of those places.

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Speaker 2: No. No, And in fact, were those explicitly legal to marry,

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Speaker 2: you know, fourteen year olds and.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the twelve does the mama say, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Younger than is allowed anywhere. But I don't actually want

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Speaker 2: to be quoted on that because I might be wrong.

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Speaker 2: But you're right, Like there is a biblical basis for

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Speaker 2: what Tony is saying. Right, He's able to cite passages

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Speaker 2: from the Bible in justification of the things he's doing. Now,

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Speaker 2: I will say, by the time he reaches his apex,

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Speaker 2: twelve is going to be old for him. But we're

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Speaker 2: getting there, Samantha. Let's distract ourselves with some ads first, though.

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Speaker 2: We're back. How you doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm just, honestly, the problem I have is knowing that

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Speaker 3: this man, if he was under trial now, guarantee, he'd

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Speaker 3: be fine. Yeah, oh yeah, he would be so fine,

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Speaker 3: Like he would be probably be in office and or

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Speaker 3: an advisor at this point, Like that's just the level

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Speaker 3: he has gone that well, oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think he could have people marching in the streets

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Speaker 2: with guns protecting him, for sure. I mean, he does

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Speaker 2: get that. It's just that it kind of pisses off

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Speaker 2: everyone around him because America's in a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a different place at this time. So as Tony gets older,

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Speaker 2: his beliefs on the proper age to marry a girl

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Speaker 2: get looser. He moves the age limit down to tin,

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Speaker 2: arguing that as long as a girl had started to menstruate,

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Speaker 2: the men around her didn't just have the right, but

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Speaker 2: a duty to marry her off quote and again, when

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Speaker 2: you say there's a biblical basis, here's his argument. God

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Speaker 2: impregnated Mary when she was about eleven years old. So

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Speaker 2: the government, idiots, the people that don't know the Bible,

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Speaker 2: what you're going to have to do is get a

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Speaker 2: hold of God. Now you're gonna have to get up

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Speaker 2: there and cuff him and send him to prisatory for

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Speaker 2: statutory rape. And yeah, if God fucked an eleven year old, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's thousands speak of a power imbalance.

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Speaker 3: He's also God, right right, there's well, I mean that's

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Speaker 3: the point.

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Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of debate as to the

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Speaker 2: ages and stuff here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, like in general, like he's also

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Speaker 3: a god obviously. Maybe he didn't resurrect his wife, maybe

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Speaker 3: he didn't for a plan to impregnate adolescence.

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Speaker 2: And it's this whole thing like I I can remember

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Speaker 2: because I grew up you know, in and around evangelicals

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Speaker 2: in the post nine to eleven period constantly hearing about

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Speaker 2: how the fundamental evil of Islam was that it allowed

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Speaker 2: fourteen mom and married like a fourteen year old girl

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Speaker 2: a twelve year old girl, something like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's okay in this religion. That's part of like the

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Speaker 2: reason why it's But like you, if you you can

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Speaker 2: look at any religious text from that period and find

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Speaker 2: a justification for fucking a little kid, right, that's just

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Speaker 2: the reality, in part because of the time period in

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Speaker 2: which those things were written. Ultimately, my stance is that

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Speaker 2: outside of specifics of the faith that they claim to be,

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Speaker 2: people who want to fuck kids find a reason to

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Speaker 2: justify fucking kids, right, And.

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Speaker 3: People who want to put those people on pedestals will

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Speaker 3: justify why this is okay? Sure exactly people for that

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Speaker 3: group of people.

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Speaker 2: Right, we met Gates. Matt, He's fine, he's great, exactly,

434
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: Matt Gates. We call this the Matt Gates coda. Right,

435
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 2: so right up for the splc continues. It's a theme

436
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 2: that Alamo keeps coming back to. In a radio show

437
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 2: Justice February twenty fourth, the preacher cited that the alleged

438
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: promiscuity of first graders as grounds for marrying them before

439
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: the illegal age of consent. I found out from people's

440
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: parents that their daughter having started having sex when she

441
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: was six years old and had sex every day of

442
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: her life, he said at one point, So right there,

443
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: by the time she's fifteen years old, she's had sex

444
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: thousands of times. I mean, this is just reality, the

445
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: alternate reality you have to like create for yourself to

446
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: exist within these things. And people have to listen to

447
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: him be talking about like year olds having sex thousands

448
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: of times and be like, yeah, that's how that's the

449
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: that's the way things work. I never seen a child,

450
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: but this seems accurate. Like, oh my god, I think

451
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: some of it is literally a lot of these people

452
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 2: will justify you see, like a kid, like look at

453
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 2: another kid of the opposite section. You're like, well, that's

454
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: basically sex, right, right, I don't know, I don't know

455
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: fully what, Like, there's a lot to dig into here,

456
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 2: but like, this is some of the most vile pedophile

457
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: justification stuff I've ever heard. And this is not like

458
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: a subject we cover, you know, sparingly on this show.

459
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: Because it turns out that like wherever you find the

460
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: worst people in a society, you'll find a lot of

461
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: them finding reasons to justify having sex with little kids. Right,

462
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: just a thing that keeps happening. It happens with Christians,

463
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: it happens on the left. It happens and every religion

464
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: and every political movement. It happens all the time with

465
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: conservative Christians. It's just a uh I I. It's these

466
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: people are predators, and predators are good at taking advantage

467
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: of power dynamics. Tony's a predator who wound up at

468
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: the head of a cult, and he understands how to

469
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 2: manipulate people. And as time goes on and he's kind

470
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: of freed further from any influence of his dead wife,

471
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: he gets more and more extreme with the things he's

472
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: willing to justify to his followers, and he keeps getting

473
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: away with it, so he keeps going further.

474
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: Right. My question though, is that the wife wasn't necessarily

475
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: trying to protect the children as much as she was

476
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: jealous of the children she's with their daughter. Yeah, she

477
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: was like upset with the daughter for seducing her husband

478
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 3: at such an age.

479
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: Give her credit.

480
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, But this is that conversation is that

481
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: no one really takes responsibility because they're just like, well,

482
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: he's the one bad character we didn't know better. But

483
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: the thing is, yeah you did, Yeah you did. You're

484
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: the parent or the people who are like, watch these

485
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: children grow up or haven't grown up. And then that's like, oh,

486
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: everything about this and the fact that this continues to

487
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 3: be a justifiable conversation, as if eventually someone will believe

488
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: me and I agree with me. Yeah, it works, they do.

489
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yeah, and it works for him for way

490
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: too long. In nineteen ninety three, he releases a tract

491
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 2: titled the Polygamists, where he justifies his behavior by arguing

492
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: the Holy Scriptures proclaim polygamy to be righteous, and he's

493
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: doing a lot of what like the there's a chunk

494
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: of the Mormons, the FLDS Church very similar justifications for

495
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: polygamy and for fucking kids. You know that you find

496
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: between the two of them very similar to the kind

497
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: of stuff David Koresh is saying. Right, because David Koresh

498
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: is a friend of his, right, of course, of course,

499
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: of course these guys get along.

500
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 3: Wait, I would think that because he would be older

501
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: than David Koresh. Right, I'm trying to geh. Oh, Yeah,

502
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: I think he's a bit he's maybe he was mentoring

503
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 3: this dude at this point.

504
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of that going on. I

505
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: don't know how Koresh because obviously Koresh is no longer

506
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: able to give interviews, so I'm not sure one hundred

507
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: percent how David would have described what their relationship was.

508
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: But we'll talk about a little later how Tony describes it.

509
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: In a broadcast for his TV network, talking about polygamy,

510
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: Tony expounded, they're condemning polygamy when it's never condemned. God

511
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: never says no polygamist shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

512
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: But these bastards, these homosexual Vaticanites, they condone homosexuals, and

513
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: they condemn marriage and a man that would take care

514
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 2: of his They say, you're a polygamist that I married

515
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 2: too many wives will find out prove it. And even

516
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: if I was, there's no law in the Bible against it. Now,

517
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: as you may be noticing here, Tony saved much of

518
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 2: his hatred for gay people and the Catholic Church who

519
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: thought wear the same thing. And we're responsible for both Nazism, communism,

520
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: and pornography, all of it could be traced back to

521
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: the Vaticans, and while Tony didn't get along with the Catholics,

522
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: he could be open minded when it came to other

523
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: cult leaders. He was friends, particularly with David Koresh. Tony

524
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: told an interviewer that David was quote like a brother

525
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 2: to me. No, I don't know. Does that mean they

526
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: were really super frie Did he just see some value

527
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 2: because these guys are preaching similar things vis a VI

528
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: pedophilia and polygamy. I don't know. It's hard to say

529
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 2: precisely how much money came into the cult because Tony

530
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: was not a fan of paying taxes. I know you're

531
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: going to be shocked by that, right, the foundation and

532
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: again the church doesn't have to pay taxes because that's

533
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: how churches work, unfortunately, But like his massively successful business

534
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: is business selling denim vest to mister t has to

535
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: pay taxes?

536
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: Does it it was under like the actual umbrella of

537
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 3: his cult that he still does.

538
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because it's not I mean like it's an

539
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: actual like business, you know, like Tony's arguing it shouldn't

540
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: have to, but the irs will feel differently. We know

541
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: that from nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy six, the foundations

542
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: reported income went from forty six one thousand dollars a

543
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: year to one point three million dollars a year. And again,

544
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: this is nineteen seventies money. It is obvious under reporting

545
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: the Colt's numerous businesses and fleet of cadillacts would have

546
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: required much more than this and income to maintain. What

547
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: got Tony in trouble for the first time was the

548
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: Fair Laboral Standards Act. No matter how many Fire and

549
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 2: Brimstone speeches about how Tony gave, some number of his

550
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 2: followers left each year, and as they re entered the

551
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: real world, some of them caught on to the fact

552
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: that Tony had actually broken the law by not paying them.

553
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: Some of these people wound up talking to the government,

554
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: and in nineteen seventy six the Department of Labor sued

555
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: the Foundation for exploiting workers. It alleged that they'd been

556
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: made to work twelve to fifteen hours a day, six

557
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: to seven days a week without salary. Now that starts

558
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: in seventy six, but the case takes a decade to

559
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: wind to conclusion. Right, this is not a fast moving case,

560
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: and it reaches the Supreme Court this is the Supreme Court,

561
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: here's this case and rules nine to zero that workers,

562
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: even an cult, are entitled to minimum wage and overtime benefits,

563
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: which you would think, Oh, good, Tony's going to have

564
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: to pay everybody now he does not. He finds workarounds,

565
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: He delays payments as long as possible, and he orchestrates

566
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: ways to recoup the money. Now that he was paying

567
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: his workers a legal salary. What he would do is

568
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: every couple of weeks he would give everyone their paychecks

569
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: and then they would have a big to do of

570
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: everyone handing their paychecks back as donations to the church.

571
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: Right tithing. Right, That's what I would.

572
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: Say, exactly, one hundred percent tithes. Still, the case had

573
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: been as high profile as cases get, which drew the

574
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: attention of federal law enforcement. So at this point Tony

575
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: has gotten sued, He's lost his case. It takes ten

576
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: years for him to lose his case, but nothing really

577
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: changes about the way the colt actually operates its business.

578
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: In the early nineteen nineties, Tony and the Tony and

579
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: Susie Alamo Susan Alamo Foundation embarks on a bold new scam,

580
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: one that was surprisingly petty given the other businesses operated

581
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: by the cold but it gives you the level of

582
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: contempt that they have both for like Christian charity and

583
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: for the law. And I want to read a quote

584
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: from an article by NBC News. Peter and Georgiadas of Pittsburgh,

585
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: lawyer who sued Alamo on behalf of EX Followers in

586
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: the nineties, said ministry workers accepted donations of food near

587
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: its expiration dates, wiped off the dates, and resold the

588
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: items to grocers. It's plain, flat out fraud, the lawyer said.

589
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: Mary Koker, who helped X Followers contact federal agents, said

590
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: that the ministry has been selling outdated government donated food

591
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 2: since it moved to FUK in the nineteen nineties. So

592
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: part one of their businesses is taking food donations and

593
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: then operating a business to sell to grocery stores expired

594
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: foods that had been donated for free.

595
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie that's a hustle.

596
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: That's a hustle, huz these people. You know, he's got

597
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: a lot of minds working for There's a lot of

598
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: dudes who's only thought every day is how can we

599
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: make more money for Tony Alamo? And they keep coming

600
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: up with ways.

601
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 3: You know that is I would have never thought of that.

602
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: There's a reasonable grocery stores model. Yeah, but like grocery

603
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: stores actually buying from them, that's I guess at different times.

604
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: It's different times.

605
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: It definitely was. In nineteen ninety one, the fence carried

606
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: out a raid on Alamo's HQ and Georgia Ridge. He

607
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: had enough warning that he was able to flee ahead

608
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: of the authorities, along with most of his valuable property.

609
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: The cops who raided his place found piles of bibles,

610
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: eighty two pews, fifteen hundred Alamo jackets, photos of Tony

611
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: with Larry Hackman, and dozens of mirrors, But they did

612
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: not find Susan's body. That's the mausoleum had been smashed open.

613
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 3: Wait so wait her body's missing now?

614
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah missing?

615
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: Wait what what are we trying to resurrect? Our two

616
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: point zero was? It's like, no, what's happening.

617
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: It's so much pettier than that. So Chris, Susan's daughter,

618
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: despite how much her mom had abused her, still loved

619
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: her mom and wanted to give her a proper burial.

620
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: And Tony hates this girl so once she sues him,

621
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: being like, you have to give me my mom's body.

622
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: He has his followers steal it away and store the

623
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: corpse in a storage unit to hide her. It would

624
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: take like seven years for Chris to win the right

625
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: to have her mom's body returned and reburied. Alama was

626
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: eventually ordered to pay one hundred thousand dollars in damages.

627
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: But like, that's it's just he's not even trying to

628
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: raise her from the dead. He's just trying to keep

629
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: her from being buried where her daughter can be a

630
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: part of it. Because he's a real piece of shit. Yeah,

631
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: very some reason.

632
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: I feel like she would Susan would have enjoyed that

633
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: her daughter after death.

634
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: Also that yes, yes, Tony probably was following her wishes.

635
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: Tony spent the first half of the nineteen nineties on

636
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,479
Speaker 2: a run from the law. The FBI put out wanted

637
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: posters for him, which stated Alamo is always accompanied by

638
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: bodyguards who have access to numerous weapons, to include M

639
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: fourteen rifles. He is known to be hostile to law

640
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: enforcement and is considered armed and dangerous. Now that's all true.

641
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: What's wild to me is while he is on the run,

642
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: his followers keep making jackets, and he keeps designing them.

643
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: He uses a fax machine to skin send sketches from

644
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: his Heidi Holes to different manufacturing facilities. He gains the.

645
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 3: Way they fought, the parents are making their children still

646
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: make these jackets. Oh he's still the children.

647
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, it's still primarily the children. Yes, And

648
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: he keeps giving interviews to journalists about the jackets. He

649
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 2: even visits his Hollywood storefront while he's on the run

650
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: from the FBI. He tells the La Times everything I

651
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: do is a work of art. I do the designs

652
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: wherever I'm at. And there's this this La Times article

653
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: that I'm going to be quoting from is amazing because

654
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: it's like he's talking to the people who are running

655
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: these shops selling these jackets, being like, but you know,

656
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 2: like he's on the run for a bunch of crimes, right,

657
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: Like kids have accused him of molesting them. He's on

658
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: the FBI's most wanted list. Why are you still selling

659
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: his jackets right and happening?

660
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 3: Why? Oh my god.

661
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: The La Times is reporting indicated that Alamo jackets continue

662
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: to be manufactured in California, New York, and primarily Arkansas.

663
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: No one working at any of these factories received any pay,

664
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: and apparently nothing meaningful had changed after that nineteen eighty

665
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: five ruling. Quote. One former member who left the cult

666
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: last year said working conditions at Alamo clothing shops have

667
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: changed little since the ruling. The former member, who asked

668
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: not to be identified, said he has seen young children

669
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 2: working in the shops with their parents. Workers were paid

670
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 2: only a five dollars a week stipend, plus room and

671
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: boarded in the Lamo commune, he said. Now the article

672
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: struck a bemused tone, veering from these store owners and

673
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: customers praising the artistry of the jackets. We felt differently

674
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: about rhyin Stones back then to former cult members describing

675
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: the labor conditions as that of an unpaid sweatshop that

676
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: primarily employed children. One question about this, Tony told a reporter,

677
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: the clothing is so groovy. Everyone wants it, no matter

678
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: what they think I am. No matter what, the superstars

679
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: are gonna want my jackets.

680
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: First of all, the voice is fantastic. Did he take

681
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: all like hippie speak in order to like sell this?

682
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: After all?

683
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: Oh, he comes out of that world, you know, I

684
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: think he is. At one point I think in the

685
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: late sixties he probably was trying his hand at being

686
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: a hippie. You know, he's in La around that time.

687
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: I guess hippie and Jean Jacket Denham maybe they didn't

688
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: go hand in hand.

689
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: I don't know sure he is in all. This whole

690
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: cult is shrapnel of the hippie movement, right the hippie

691
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: movement doesn't really change anything. A lot of people wind

692
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: up on the street and mentally damaged in the after

693
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 2: shocks of the anti war movement in the Summer of Love.

694
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: And you know, Tony is Tony and his initial cult

695
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: followers are those people. So being decent reporters, the La

696
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: Times Crew reached out to the FBI about the fact

697
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: that this guy, who's apparently one of their most wanted

698
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 2: seems to still be selling gen jackets in Hollywood. Quote.

699
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: FBI spokesman Jim Neilson said the bureau is continuing at

700
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: search for Alamo, but refuse to elaborate on the investigation. Now,

701
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 2: if you're thinking, boy, isn't the fact that this serial

702
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: child molester and child traffick are manufacturing expensive clothing for

703
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: the most famous people on Earth and giving interviews will

704
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 2: on the run from the FBI. Isn't that a hideous

705
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: indictment of our federal law enforcement agencies? And my answer

706
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: would be, oh man, they were up to so much

707
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: worse shit than this in the mid nineties. Bro, I

708
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: don't know what to tell you that this is actually

709
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: kind of low. Now, some of the money from jacket

710
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: sales was reinvested into the cult, primarily into the production

711
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: of vast numbers of flyers complaining that Tony was being

712
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: wrongfully targeted by the government on behalf of the Vatican.

713
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: His Christian soldiers, largely followers, braced out of his Sauga's compound,

714
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: trolled the streets of Hollywood and West LA putting leaflets

715
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: on the windshields of thousands of cars from that article.

716
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: The leaflet's rambling denunciations claimed that the District Attorney's Office,

717
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: the Internal Revenue Service, and the Department of Labour are

718
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: linked to a terrorist plot against the Alamo Church led

719
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: by Pope John Paul the Second. The leaflets have become

720
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: a common sight on Los Angeles streets, with titles such

721
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: as government subversion against Alamo and Tony Alamo My side

722
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: of the story. They have at various times appeared littered

723
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: along the sidewalk on Broadway and downtown Los Angeles, at

724
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: a county courthouse in Lancaster, and on the windshields of

725
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: cars at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles International Airport. The

726
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: leaflets bear the same sauga's phone number as glossy brochures

727
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: used by Alamo Designs to promote the sequin jackets. By

728
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: dialing the number of callers can learn how to obtain

729
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: more of Alamo's religious literature, or which Los Angeles area

730
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: stores carry Alamo's jackets. You can get it all propaganda

731
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: or the jacket. Michael Jackson, Warren Bad, same guy, what.

732
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 3: A deal, what a deal, A good conversation, and jackets,

733
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: beaded jackets on beaded jackets.

734
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so funny how they would talk about rhinestones

735
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: like serious art, Like, oh my god, the rhinestones on

736
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: these are amazing.

737
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 3: Are so good.

738
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: What a special period of time that was for America.

739
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: Speaking of special our sponsors, all of them, beautiful, special

740
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: beat None of them are on the run from the FBI,

741
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: hiding in the mountains. You know, that's not any of

742
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: our sponsors, except for maybe that food box company that

743
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 2: just got caught with child labor stuff. Anyway, whatever, we'll

744
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: be back and we're back. So by this point, there

745
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: are numerous reports in the media that Tony was molesting children.

746
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: I hate coming back on a line like that, but

747
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: this is the story that it is, he argued on

748
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: his own TV program for polygamy and marriage of children

749
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: as young at twelve. Yet major stores, including Macy's and

750
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: Bullocks continued to sell his jackets until they were literally

751
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: hounded by the press. These La Times reporters even came

752
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: up with a photo of Tony shaking hands with Los

753
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: Angeles Mayor Tim Bradley, and the picture was taken while

754
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: Tony was on the FBI Most Wanted list. Wow, Bradley

755
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: told report. Bradley's spokesperson told reporters, I guess Alamo was

756
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: known for his sequin jackets something else at this point too. Man,

757
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what very La mayor thing to do, though, Like, look,

758
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: famous people wear his stuff. I don't care what crimes

759
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: he's committing.

760
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, that's not like the Jaws moment. Yes,

761
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: pretend like no one's dead. No, pretend likely there's not

762
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: a giant shark attack. Were she gonna enjoy the summer.

763
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: Let's chill.

764
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: I can't imagine the mayor from Jaws like arm in

765
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 2: arm with Tony Alamo very easy Now. While he evaded

766
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: law enforcement with almost comical ease, Tony continued to take

767
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: new brides. One of the oldest of them was a

768
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: seventeen year old girl named Yale, who was married to

769
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: another man in the colt and gave birth in nineteen

770
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: ninety three while on the run with Tony in his

771
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: inner circle. As soon as she finished giving birth, Tony

772
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: kicked her husband out of the colt. Yale had to

773
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: beg to have him reinstated, and Tony told her he

774
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: would on one cognition, she'd have to marry him. From

775
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 2: a write up by the SPLC, Alamo's five wives played

776
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: with her young daughter in another room as she pondered

777
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: her fate. It's like having a loaded gun to your head,

778
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: she says, now, refusing, Alamo meant, not only might you

779
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: get beat half to death, but you'll go to hell

780
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 2: on top of it. So pretty bleak, she says, Yes,

781
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 2: the thing that you would expect happens. It's as awful

782
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: as you would guess. It took Yale years to accept

783
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: that what happened was not consensual. But obviously she was

784
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: seventeen and he was sixty and the leader of her cult. Right,

785
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 2: So they're not married long and during their brief period

786
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: because he is free for about a year after marrying

787
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: her before he finally gets caught. And during that brief

788
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: period he marries a nine year old girl and a

789
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: ten year old girl. Here's how Yale described his grooming practice.

790
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: Every little girl starting to develop wants to feel beautiful,

791
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: and he was very good at making them feel that way.

792
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: He prayed on the fact that we were alienated from

793
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: our parents. They worked and worked, and some of us

794
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: hadn't seen our parents in a very long time.

795
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 3: Yeah that makes sense.

796
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I was, I mean.

797
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: To be fair in these cold situations, it doesn't matter

798
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: usually the parents, whether their present or not. They're somewhat

799
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: like complicit parts complicit again.

800
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: I think a lot of these, Yeah.

801
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: But then like separating them makes a lot of sense,

802
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 3: which it does happen in a lot of cults.

803
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's pretty standard cult behavior, and I

804
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: mean it makes sense that that's how Tony works.

805
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 3: So he was okay with other people having multi relationships too,

806
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: it wasn't just him or did he do all the marrying.

807
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: Oh, it's he's doing all the marrying. Yeah. Yeah, some

808
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: people are allowed to be married. But as Yale's get like,

809
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: you can get forcibly separated by him if he doesn't,

810
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 2: if he gets jealous of your relationship. In nineteen ninety four,

811
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: the year after their marriage, Tony was finally arrested in

812
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: This is not going to surprise anyone, Florida, where he

813
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: had been living for most of the time he spent

814
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 2: on the run under a fake name. He was convicted

815
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: of tax fraud to the tune of nine million dollars

816
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 2: and sentenced to six years in prison. Again, it was

817
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 2: evidence by this point that he was practicing polygamy with children.

818
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: But a year or so before his arrest in February

819
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety three, the BATF and the FBI had

820
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 2: had a bloody standoff with Tony's friend David Carey and

821
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: his cold outside of Waco. The whole thing had ended

822
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: with several dead agents, many dead coltists, and dozens of

823
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: dead children. The disaster at Waco, which came right off

824
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: the heels of the bloody ATF standoff at Ruby Ridge

825
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: had galvanized the American religious right against what they saw

826
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: as federal overreach. The fact that the Feds had fucked

827
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: up hideously and made a very bad situation even worse

828
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: made all of this a lot more problematic, and the

829
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: FBI at all responded by pulling back from going after

830
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: figures like a Lamo, which is why I suspect no

831
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: one did the fairly minimal work necessary to charge him

832
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: over his polygamy and child molestation at this stage. In fact,

833
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: while he is in prison, he is allowed to have

834
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: visitation rights with his wives per the SPLC the children.

835
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah what Yeah. Although he was incarcerated during most of

836
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: their marriage, Alamo kept in touch through regular prison visits,

837
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: where Yale and other wives present at the time alleged

838
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: that he would fondle the younger girls as older wives

839
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: blocked the view of the prison security cameras. He allegedly

840
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: spoke to the girls in graphic terms about group sex

841
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: and whips, says Yale, who became terrified of him at

842
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: the time. Neale says she was still in awe of Alamo.

843
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 2: She worked eighteen hour days transcribing the tapes a Lama

844
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: would record for his followers, She says, editing out his

845
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: curse words. I would have killed for him. It would

846
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: have killed my child or anyone for him, even though

847
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: I hated him. Yale says, now I'd become his little demon,

848
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: finding sick joy and telling people horrible things on orders

849
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: from Tony. Oh oh boy, what cult dynamics, Like I

850
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: know two to zero one there the whole older wives

851
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 2: hiding what's happening. But also the fact that like, why

852
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: are you prison officials letting children come here?

853
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 3: There's so many questions. I have so many questions, like rumors,

854
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: Like they already know they're these rumors, but then they

855
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: let them in. Yeah, this is completely normal.

856
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a big part of the Tony Alamos

857
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 2: story is that our legal system is set up to

858
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: enable certain kinds of cult leaders, even when they molest

859
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: children on a grand scale, because that's a lot easier

860
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: for all of the people who have the like these

861
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: government often these appointee jobs to just not upset the

862
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: apple cart and piss off, you know, certain segments of

863
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: the country by trying to stop the mass rape of children.

864
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: It's cool, right, I love it.

865
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 3: The amount of like, first of all, just just from

866
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 3: what I remember working as a social worker for defacts.

867
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 3: Having a child sex abuse case literally costs a dude

868
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: six thousand dollars in probation. Yeah, that was, and that's

869
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 3: if we had proof dead to rights. Yeah, I mean,

870
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 3: like had to be forensic proof or the child had

871
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: to be able to explicitly tell in detail what it

872
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: happened to them. But that's the like it. You would

873
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 3: talk about the fact that it only costs a bit

874
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: of money if you want to do this. It's disgusting.

875
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 2: And the vin diagram of guys who would like shoot

876
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: elected officials if those laws were changed to make the

877
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: punishments be more substantial, and guys who own kill your

878
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 2: local pedophile shirts is just a circle, right, the same guys,

879
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: the same base. Yeah.

880
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

881
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: Tony ultimately served four years of this sentence, leaving prison

882
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight and immediately booking it for the

883
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 2: town of Folk, Arkansas. Fouke. He repeated the same well

884
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: worn tactics that had helped him build an inviable role

885
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: of properties and businesses in two other Arkansas small towns

886
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: and in Hollywood up to this point. For nearly a decade,

887
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: Tony enjoyed wealth, instability, The town even honored him with

888
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: a certificate of appreciation in February two thousand and six

889
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: for deeds that he and his church did to aid

890
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: those in need in our community and for his Christian

891
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: love and kindness.

892
00:47:58,800 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: And this is why I don't trust question.

893
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is why I have a lot

894
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: of trouble trusting anybody who runs a church.

895
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 3: I'll say that much, right, Yeah, I mean I was

896
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 3: gonna say a lot of this is hand in hand

897
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 3: once again with the current church leaders today.

898
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: It is, I will say, there's a difference in that

899
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: it's these local small town residents who are I assume

900
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 2: also evangelical Christians generally, who are some of the first

901
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: people to stand up to Tony. Because here's the thing

902
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: about pedophile cult leaders again, if you give them an inch,

903
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 2: they wind up setting up armed guards on public streets,

904
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 2: which is what an increasingly paranoid and elderly Tony did

905
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 2: later in two thousand and six. By this point, the

906
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: FEDS had started investigating him again, this time finally over

907
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: the child molestation and trafficking. Alamo responded by ordering his

908
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 2: armed guards to line the public street approaching his property.

909
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: It is an unfortunate but undeniable reality that when you

910
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: give a man a rifle and tell him to patrol

911
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 2: the street, regardless of his legal position, he'll start questioning

912
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: random strangers. This happened, and its seriously pissed off residents

913
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 2: who complained to the local government, and then the local

914
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: government did nothing because they were almost certainly being bribed

915
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: by the cult or were just scared of it, and

916
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 2: thus the government took no action until the abuses grew

917
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: too numerous to ignore, so residents had to take actions

918
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 2: into their own hands. One resident, Judy Fraser, a small

919
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: business owner in town, started looking into the dark and

920
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: documented history of Al Alamo ministries. She starts publishing stuff,

921
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: she starts organizing the accounts of former members, and she's

922
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: going to be like one of the most effective ground

923
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: level activists against Tony. Ex followers start going to the

924
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: media with increased frequency. One of them, a former school teacher,

925
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: claims Tony ordered her daughter, who suffered from epilepsy, beaten

926
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 2: while she was having a seizure because said seizures were

927
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: caused by the devil. Another Sue Balsley, told the SPLC

928
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: that her teenage boy was held in the air by

929
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: four men and beaten one hundred and forty times as

930
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: punishment for sending a lovel letter to a female classmate

931
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: his own age. And it just keeps getting worse from there.

932
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: There's the case of a girl, Cindy Joe Angelo, when

933
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 2: she was fifteen and married to someone else because again

934
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: not great dynamics outside of being married to Alamo in

935
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: this cult. Alamo calls her into his house and makes

936
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 2: her his wife in nineteen ninety five, which is when

937
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: she finds out that her eleven year old sister had

938
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: also been made a bride. Nicki Farr told the SPLC

939
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 2: report that she had fled Alamo's house in nineteen ninety

940
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: nine at age fifteen after three years of basically showing

941
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: up for those prison visits and being sexually harassed by Tony.

942
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: She didn't want to marry him once he got out,

943
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 2: and she escaped from the cult by crawling through ditches

944
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 2: and over barbed wire after he caught her making an

945
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: unauthorized phone call and knocked her out. Pretty bad stuff. Yeah, yeah,

946
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: I was.

947
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: Was this a documentary at any point, because some of

948
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 3: these stories sound or ministry.

949
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: It might have been a BBC documentary about this.

950
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: I may have watched parts of it because some of

951
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: this sounds, especially like the town being like this is

952
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: getting weird to finally getting to that point familiar.

953
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 2: We've crossed the line for small town.

954
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 3: Right, like we would mind our business. But then when

955
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,479
Speaker 3: you start doing this and like.

956
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: Devalu on the streets, the girls fleeing barbed wire. Yeah, okay,

957
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 2: so from this point on the dam was broken. Reporting

958
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 2: in February of two thousand and seven linked to Lamo

959
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: to a warehouse of three thousand stolen mattresses owned by

960
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: two of his wives. I wouldn't bring this up because, like,

961
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: mattress theft not a huge crime, except these were temper

962
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: pedic mattresses from a lot of eight thousand that had

963
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: been donated by the company to victims of Hurricane Katrina.

964
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 2: Tony's men had wound up stealing them somehow and sold

965
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 2: an estimated four thousand of them for half a million dollars.

966
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: So like, you're stealing mattresses for Katrina victims.

967
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 3: Well, there's so many level God, like, I want to

968
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 3: know this is like a fast and furious operation. Yeah, yeah,

969
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: Like there's a there's a package coming, there's a truck imaged.

970
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: Pretty so and furious. It's going to take a lot

971
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: of trucks to move eight thousand mattresses. God how they

972
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 2: didn't have mail order mattress technology like we do today.

973
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: Thank god you no, no, you could do it with

974
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 2: like those what were those, the Podcaster mattresses?

975
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: Now they're at Costco.

976
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, now they're at Costco. Casper. You could do it

977
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 2: with Casper's. You can get eight thousand of those in

978
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: a couple of box jobs. So state and federal law

979
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: enforcement rated the Alamo compound in September of two thousand

980
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: and eight, charging him with child abuse, possession of child pornography,

981
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, and trafficking. He was convicted on the testimony

982
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: of five women who claimed they'd been married to him

983
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 2: in secret ceremonies as miners. The youngest of these women

984
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 2: had been eight at the time. After decades of horrific crimes,

985
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: Tony Alama was convicted in two thousand and nine of

986
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: taking girls across state lines for the purpose of sex.

987
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: He was sentenced to the maximum one hundred and seventy

988
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: five years in prison. Now he ultimately serves only a

989
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: fraction of that because in May of twenty seventeen. He

990
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: dies at the age of eighty two, but he still

991
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: spends a decent bit of time in prison and he

992
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: dies there. So I guess that's as good as this

993
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: story was ever going to end.

994
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 3: I want to know that the prisoner's cuddled him. Yeah,

995
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding, do it?

996
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,879
Speaker 2: I know that? Like, yeah, did they try to bring

997
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 2: him back? I don't know. I hope he had a

998
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 2: bad time. I hope it was all bad from that

999
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: point on, because he didn't get nearly what I would

1000
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 2: describe as a fair punishment, like nine years in prison

1001
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: for what's really a dizzying array of crimes.

1002
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 3: Right, and the fact that he loved a majority Do

1003
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 3: you have his adulthood in luxury and like infamy, people

1004
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 3: respected his stuff. That's really disgusting. It makes me, yeah,

1005
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 3: angry at the entire system, like the fact that people

1006
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 3: are okay with this, Like I want to know, did

1007
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 3: Michael Jackson obviously can't now, but like mister t die

1008
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 3: pardon anybody ever talk about, you know, having a shame

1009
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 3: in that or like renouncing any of those things? Did

1010
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: they at least burn.

1011
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: I haven't run into it. I mean, what are you

1012
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: gonna say, like Hey, you know this guy who so

1013
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: you bought a jacket from turned out to suck. So like,

1014
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 2: it's not like, you know, it's not like they were

1015
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: like working together, you know, like it's not like Dolly

1016
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: Parton was in business with him specifically she liked, she

1017
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: did some shows at a venue he owned, She owned

1018
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: a jacket. Like, I don't know where we lock that

1019
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: in in terms of responsibility at a moral level.

1020
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 3: Right, I mean it's very least like acknowledging that the

1021
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: victims existed, including the child labor, yeah, went into her work.

1022
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it would have been good

1023
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: to say something for all of these people who bought

1024
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 2: Alamo jackets. But I'm not surprised they didn't.

1025
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 3: Of course not, they wouldn't. Yeah, I mean, we don't

1026
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 3: know who the queens and kings and presidents are at

1027
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: this point.

1028
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 2: No, yes, I do want to know. Yeah, I do

1029
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: imagine the King of Saudi Arabia has a nice collection

1030
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: of ryanstoned denim vests.

1031
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 3: I mean I feel like Bill Clinton probably had one, Yeah,

1032
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 3: putting one of those on and playing his saxophone, Oh yeah,

1033
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 3: on par.

1034
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't be shocked, especially

1035
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: since we know he was a fan. All right, yeah,

1036
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: well that's the episode.

1037
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 3: I need to stage my computer. How do I do this?

1038
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 2: Just just burn it? Just burn your computer? Oh man,

1039
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 2: good stuff? Well anything you want to push out there,

1040
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: Samantha at the.

1041
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 3: End, you know, talk about stuff on stuff mom never

1042
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 3: told you about how the world is awful and similar

1043
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 3: to these bad people and hopefully solutions or at least

1044
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 3: positive things. So if you want to come listen to us,

1045
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 3: you can find me on Blue Sky McVeigh. Sam. I

1046
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 3: do have Instagram and all that, but I'm rarely on there.

1047
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, check out Sam McVay and check out Maybe

1048
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: don't check out social media too much, but you'll if

1049
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: you do find Sam on it. Above all, else, don't

1050
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 2: buy a denim jacket. They're all made by cult.

1051
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 3: Leaders, especially if it's bedazzled.

1052
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, especially if it's bedazzled. Just avoid that for

1053
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: your own soul's sake. All right, And that's the episode. Everybody,

1054
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: We're done.

1055
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1056
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1057
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio

1058
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind

1059
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every

1060
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com

1061
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: slash at Behind the Bastards