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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. There are certain days

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Speaker 1: in your life that mark you, and for me those

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Speaker 1: days were the birth of my kids and also the

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Speaker 1: birth of my grandchildren. I'll never forget it as long

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Speaker 1: as I live, because you know, people, it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of wrote to say it, I know, but it is

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Speaker 1: truly a miracle when you're there and your you watch

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Speaker 1: this happen, this thing that just occurs and brings life

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Speaker 1: into the world, and it's so beautiful, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that you never forget, at least for me, I'll never

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Speaker 1: forget it till my dying day. Look at day, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a case involving a mother and

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Speaker 1: a baby who never had a chance in life. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, probably for me as a death investigator,

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Speaker 1: if there were any sadder cases than those involving kids

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Speaker 1: and particularly babies. It just it hurts your heart, It

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Speaker 1: bruises you. It's something that you carry with you for

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Speaker 1: the rest of your life. And the case that we're

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Speaker 1: going to be discussing today, is such a case like

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Speaker 1: that that I don't know that anyone could ever get

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Speaker 1: over this, beyond it, past it, and certainly never forget it. No, Joe,

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Speaker 1: And I think for me, what made this case as

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Speaker 1: bad as it was, what made it one degree word,

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Speaker 1: is that the young lady who died, her mother was

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Speaker 1: the one who found her body, Reagan Simmons. Hancock was

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Speaker 1: found lying face down in her bloody living room, and

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Speaker 1: according to the police, there was blood throughout the house. Now,

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Speaker 1: this woman was seven and a half, nearly eight months

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Speaker 1: pregnant with her second child. And keep in mind again

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Speaker 1: that there was blood everywhere in the house, on the floors,

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Speaker 1: on the walls, on the furniture, on the appliances, and

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Speaker 1: other items throughout the house. And we discussed this case

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Speaker 1: with someone else the other day and the comment was made,

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Speaker 1: you know how horrific it was because you don't keep

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Speaker 1: your toaster in the living room. So she was found

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Speaker 1: in the living room, yet there was blood on the

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Speaker 1: toaster in the kitchen. Reagan Hancock Simmons was stabbed and

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Speaker 1: her baby, her nearly eight month fetus, was cut from

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Speaker 1: her womb, and her mother made the nine one one

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Speaker 1: call around ten thirty on a Friday morning in October,

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Speaker 1: having found her daughter lying face down in the living room.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things. I'm glad you brought up

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Speaker 1: a point by blood because it's part and parcel of

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Speaker 1: what we do as death investigators. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: first things that people think about from an evidentiary standpoint,

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Speaker 1: because the spilling of blood is evidence that something horrible

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Speaker 1: has happened, that there's a sickness, or that there was

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Speaker 1: some type of event that brought about at least from

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Speaker 1: the smallest blood droplet to just a vast amount of

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Speaker 1: blood where it looks like a room sometimes it's just

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Speaker 1: been bathed in it, and you have to be able

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Speaker 1: to look past the horror of that and try to

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Speaker 1: get down to business and try to understand the dynamics

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Speaker 1: of the blood flow, dynamics of the staining of the

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Speaker 1: blood that's left behind, and what does the blood trying

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Speaker 1: to tell you. And it's quite something when you think

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Speaker 1: about it, and that transfer of the blood, uh and

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Speaker 1: you get an idea of what had happened to both

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Speaker 1: the victim and potentially a perpetrator because they're contacting various surfaces.

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Speaker 1: You know, you brought up this point about the toaster.

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Speaker 1: How in Heaven's name does a toaster have a transfer

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Speaker 1: or contact blood stain on the surface of it? And

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Speaker 1: it's just not something that is compatible with logical thought.

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Speaker 1: And it goes back to the premise that I've always

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Speaker 1: said here on body backs, and that is that we

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Speaker 1: as death investigators, are always having a view the abnormal

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Speaker 1: in the context of the normal, and sometimes things just

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Speaker 1: don't make sense. Speaking of that, I have two questions

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Speaker 1: for you. The first thing you have to consider is,

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Speaker 1: we know we have a finite amount of blood in

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Speaker 1: our body, so how much is there for it to

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Speaker 1: be everywhere? And we know that it's smears and runs

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Speaker 1: and pools. But to make another analogy, let's liken this

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Speaker 1: to an arson scene. How do you find ground zero?

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Speaker 1: How do you find the burn point? So, with blood everywhere,

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Speaker 1: how do you figure out where the murder actually occurred? Well,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to your first question, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: certainly a great question. People want to know how much

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Speaker 1: blood is in a person, you know, just up and

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Speaker 1: walking around. And the answer is variable, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of it depends upon the size and the level of

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Speaker 1: the physical maturity. If you're talking about child, obviously that

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Speaker 1: child is not going to have as much as a

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Speaker 1: full grown adult, and you know, more diminutive full grown

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Speaker 1: adult is not going to have as much as a

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Speaker 1: rather robust individual. You know, if you begin to think

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Speaker 1: and toy around with the idea, so maybe about two

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Speaker 1: gallons of blood and your body, that gives you an

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Speaker 1: idea of how much blood is floating around, and again

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Speaker 1: that that number is greatly, wildly variable when there is

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Speaker 1: a blood letting or a spillage of blood. The primary

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Speaker 1: you drew the comparison between that an Arson case and Jackie.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard anybody do that, but

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Speaker 1: actually it's really cool, you know, because in Arson we

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Speaker 1: think about things like points of origin, and with blood

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Speaker 1: it can in fact be the same where first off,

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Speaker 1: the initial attack may have taken place where you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have cast off blood. There's kind of a dynamic flow.

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Speaker 1: You might have what's called arterial spray if you cut

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Speaker 1: a vessel, and you'll have that kind of immediate pumping

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Speaker 1: out of blood. And then the person might say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: after initially being injured, runaway or attempt to escape and

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Speaker 1: then you'll have these kind of droplets that are falling

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Speaker 1: away passively off of the body as they're tracking through it,

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Speaker 1: and the person's footprints might be tracking through it along

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Speaker 1: with the perpetrators that that's certainly chasing them. And then finally,

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Speaker 1: the location of where they come to rest, if they're viable,

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Speaker 1: is where they're going to pump out. And many times

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Speaker 1: you see that at those locations. And you know, in

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Speaker 1: case I'm thinking about famously, and I hate mentioned her

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Speaker 1: name of Jodiarius, when you go back to that case

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Speaker 1: and of us Alexander's body where he came came to rest,

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Speaker 1: you had that copious amount of blood where she cut

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Speaker 1: his throat and that final desperate moments, and then the

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Speaker 1: carpet was super saturated. Well, the attack had occurred back

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Speaker 1: down the hall in the bathroom, but in a case

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Speaker 1: like this, you've got a lot of activity that's going

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Speaker 1: on in this particular case, and the idea is to

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Speaker 1: try to find out what the dynamic is, the points

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Speaker 1: of origin from the body, what caused the injury, because

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, we've got a young mother to

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Speaker 1: be that has been stabbed over a hundred times. Let

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Speaker 1: that sink in over a hundred times, and not just

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Speaker 1: that she's been bludgeoned as well. One of the facts

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Speaker 1: in this case is that a hammer was used on

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Speaker 1: this poor woman. What can a hammer due to a skull?

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Speaker 1: When it comes to the death of Reagan, this is

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Speaker 1: one of the more horrific things things that I've come across.

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Speaker 1: And sometime in addition to all of these sharp force

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Speaker 1: injuries that she sustained, probably near a hundred, I guess

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Speaker 1: the fact is is that she was also beaten with

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Speaker 1: a hammer. And when I say hammer, it's it's not

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Speaker 1: simply the blunt end of the hammer. The medical examiner

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Speaker 1: concluded that not only was she struck with kind of

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Speaker 1: the flat coin shaped end of a hammer, but also

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Speaker 1: the claw. So not only has Reagan been beaten with

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Speaker 1: this hammer by the end that you would commonly associate

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Speaker 1: with driving nails with, but this is a claw hammer,

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Speaker 1: and according to the medical examiner, Reagan was also beaten

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Speaker 1: with the claw as well. And these are going to

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Speaker 1: be very distinctive injuries to her skull. So you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have this kind of underlying depressed skull fracture that you

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Speaker 1: get with the end that you would commonly drive a

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Speaker 1: nail with many times, these injuries will will give the

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Speaker 1: appearance of uh kind of a quarter size shape, perfectly circular.

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Speaker 1: It would marry up with that end of the hammer.

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Speaker 1: But then you get these nasty blows that originate from

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Speaker 1: the claw, and as you well know, the claw is

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Speaker 1: too pronged and so those can fracture the skull as well.

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Speaker 1: But those injuries appear completely different. They appear different on

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Speaker 1: the surface of the scalp because they almost collect an

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Speaker 1: incised injury. And then into the skull you'll have these

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Speaker 1: kind of grooves that are cut into the skull where

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Speaker 1: this claw actually makes impact. And it is an absolutely

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Speaker 1: brutal way to die because this hammer over and over

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Speaker 1: again she struck five times, would have been driven deeper

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Speaker 1: and deeper into her skull. Depended upon where the strikes

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Speaker 1: took place. You might have an instance where you have

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Speaker 1: over lapping fractures and over lapping impacts, and so it

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Speaker 1: would be a collection of injuries focalized in one specific

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Speaker 1: area in her her skull would have just been crushed.

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Speaker 1: What I found really strange about this job. We know

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Speaker 1: that the scalpel, or a scalpel rather was removed from

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Speaker 1: the woman's neck. Even with the amount of blood that

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Speaker 1: was found. Knowing that this young mother was stabbed, the

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Speaker 1: stabs were not what killed her. The autopsy showed that

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Speaker 1: handcock was strangled. How does that happen? Does that mean

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Speaker 1: she was stabbed afterwards? In a lot of these cases,

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Speaker 1: and look, we say this a lot, but in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, when you have an individual that has this

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Speaker 1: many stab wounds, what we refer to as StarForce injuries,

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Speaker 1: those sites are whether or not you're they're gonna be fatal,

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Speaker 1: is heavily deepened upon the depth and if they're impacting

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Speaker 1: any kind of underlying structures and like vital organs. If

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Speaker 1: you've got to, say, for instance, a six inch long

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Speaker 1: butcher knife, and you drive it into the chest just

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Speaker 1: to the left of the sternum, well you're gonna pretend

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Speaker 1: actually drive that home if you have the strength, into

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Speaker 1: the heart. And that's not instantaneous, but the individual is

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Speaker 1: going to die pretty quickly. Whereas you have an individual

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Speaker 1: that has cut multiple surfaces of their body, it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily going to bring about an instantaneous death. And there's

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Speaker 1: another thing that happens here when you think about post

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Speaker 1: mortal activity, with an individual that is attacking somebody, what's

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Speaker 1: the rationale for it? You know, why would you obviously

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Speaker 1: be stabbing or cutting someone that's obviously dead. What's the

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Speaker 1: motivation behind it? And again, for us in forensics, forensics

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Speaker 1: science in particular, that's not really the area that we're

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Speaker 1: going to go down the road. And but we're gonna

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Speaker 1: make note of it because it is significant in a

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Speaker 1: case like this finally goes to trial, because it's demonstrative

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Speaker 1: of a bigger issue, and it's rare, you know, because

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Speaker 1: we know that she was struck in the head, we

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Speaker 1: know that she was stabbed all these times. And then

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Speaker 1: you throw on top of this that there's some kind

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Speaker 1: of asphyxial event that's going on. You want to say overkill.

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Speaker 1: People love to throw that turn around. This is I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's a finer example of overkill in

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Speaker 1: a case than what Reagan had to endure in this.

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Speaker 1: I know that she endured something. She had an awareness

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Speaker 1: because her pain centers are being struck. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can imagine it goes back to you know, that old

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Speaker 1: adage about death by a thousand cuts. It's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: that you're going to die instantaneously by being stabbed or cut.

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Speaker 1: It's the totality, and that's the term that we use

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Speaker 1: frequently in forensics, the totality of the injuries that she sustained,

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Speaker 1: and then a coupled that with specific anatomical locations in

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Speaker 1: the body. What structures did these cuts impact beneath the surface?

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Speaker 1: Did they get down into major vessels where any of

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Speaker 1: her organs actually struck where she would begin to bleed

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Speaker 1: out internally? And again those are questions that would certainly

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Speaker 1: be answered in the morgue. But again, it wasn't the

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Speaker 1: stabbing that killed her. She was strangled. So her fight

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Speaker 1: or flight mechanism is both hindered and enhanced because she

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Speaker 1: obviously wants to protect her baby, but her body can't

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Speaker 1: move like she would if she wasn't nearly eight months pregnant.

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Speaker 1: All of us have seen women in the advanced stages

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Speaker 1: of pregnancy. I certainly add with my wife, and you

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Speaker 1: know that the longer you go, the more inhibited you

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Speaker 1: are physically. There's a certain things. Your backsache, and you're

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Speaker 1: constantly tired, you know, because you're carrying for two, you're

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Speaker 1: eating for two, you're ambulating for two, you're sleeping for

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Speaker 1: two and so you're already drained any attempt to forward

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Speaker 1: an attack, and she's literally running on adrenaline at this

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Speaker 1: point in time. Her body is not at the same

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Speaker 1: level peak performance as it would have been in life

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Speaker 1: when she was not pregnant. She may have been able

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Speaker 1: to fend off somebody that was smaller than her, for instance,

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Speaker 1: But in a case like this, where you've got this

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Speaker 1: young mother that is seven and a half months down

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Speaker 1: the road in a pregnancy, she's gonna be so diminished

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Speaker 1: that she's not gonna be able to fight off an attacker.

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Speaker 1: She's just not physically, she's changed metabolically. She doesn't have

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Speaker 1: that the energy and the strength to continue on. But

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Speaker 1: this is the one thing that I can say. It

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Speaker 1: sounds as though to me at least, that she fought,

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Speaker 1: and she fought to the point where the attacker felt

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Speaker 1: the need to injure her. This many times, and certainly

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Speaker 1: in these various modes where we've got it an asphyxial event,

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Speaker 1: we've got a bludgeoning or blunt force trauma event, and

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Speaker 1: we've got short forced injuries. In my office, I've actually

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Speaker 1: got a scalpel handled and it's not just any scalpel handle.

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Speaker 1: Is actually the first scalpel handler that I ever used

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Speaker 1: in performing an autopsy, and the pathologist that I was

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Speaker 1: working with, he gave it to me. He said, you'll

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Speaker 1: want to have this someday, You'll you'll remember it, And

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Speaker 1: I do, and I have it there, probably displayed on

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Speaker 1: my shelf in my office at the university. And the

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Speaker 1: reason I bring that up is that in this case,

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Speaker 1: there is an instrument involved in this homicide that, to

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Speaker 1: my recollection, the best of my recollection, I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of before, and that is whoever did this brought a

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Speaker 1: scalpel in order to facilitate Reagan's death and concurrently removal

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Speaker 1: of her unborn baby. The first question that popped into

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Speaker 1: my mind as you were talking, Joe, is where did

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Speaker 1: she get a scalpel? I mean, this is everybody thinks

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Speaker 1: so it's a sharp knife, but I mean the scalpel

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Speaker 1: is a very precise, very specific instrument. And it's not

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Speaker 1: like you can go down to the you know, to

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Speaker 1: the drug store by one, is it. No? I don't

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Speaker 1: think that you can. You assume that there are some

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Speaker 1: places medical supply houses, and there are surgical supply locations

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Speaker 1: and I don't think that they necessarily have to have

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Speaker 1: a justification for you to purchase these. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I'm almost positive that you can order scalpels online of

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Speaker 1: I've actually done it in forensics where you can. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can order them, particularly if you're going to do

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Speaker 1: postmortem dissections, and it's not like going down and buying

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Speaker 1: a weapon or something. You don't have to have some

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Speaker 1: kind of special license or anything like that. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know that it would necessarily raise an eyebrows if

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Speaker 1: you did it, But in this case, this person got

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Speaker 1: their hands on one, and I found it fascinating because

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about preparation preparation of an

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Speaker 1: event of this type, it gives you an insight into

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Speaker 1: the planning that the individual would have had to have done.

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Speaker 1: The perpetrator in this case, this person is actually sitting

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Speaker 1: in their home thinking, Okay, I've got maybe a couple

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Speaker 1: of candidates here. I want a baby, and I've decided

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Speaker 1: I want this baby in particularly the one that Reagan

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Speaker 1: is carrying. What tools do I need d see how

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Speaker 1: ghastly this becomes when you begin to follow this line

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Speaker 1: of logic. Look a standard C section that a physician

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Speaker 1: performs and O B G way in. And I know

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Speaker 1: many in our audience of loved ones and maybe many

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Speaker 1: of our listeners have had to C section. You have

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Speaker 1: to show up with the appropriate tools. It just makes sense, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like they're gonna come to your

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Speaker 1: house and do the C section. I guess in certain

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Speaker 1: cases they would, maybe a midwife would have to have

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Speaker 1: that tool kit with them. But in this case, you

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Speaker 1: think about going to the hospital, you go into labor,

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Speaker 1: and they say, well, it's not gonna be a vaginal delivery,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have to do a C section. Well, there

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Speaker 1: is actually what's referred to as a C section kit

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Speaker 1: that trinic surgeons have at their disposal, and these things

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Speaker 1: are literally just kind of laid out on the table

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Speaker 1: by the surgical text and the nurses, and when mama

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Speaker 1: gets prepped, they have everything at their disposal because they've

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Speaker 1: anticipated all possible outcomes, I mean all possible outcomes because

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Speaker 1: they've delivered so many babies via C section. And in

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Speaker 1: this case, you really wonder what else was in the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator's toolback. Was it just simply a scalpel? Did she

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Speaker 1: show up with mets? And bomb scissors. Did she show up? Wait?

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Speaker 1: Wait wait, mets and bomb scissors, which is a very scissors.

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Speaker 1: Mets and bomb scissors, which are well, they're they're very

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Speaker 1: particular to surgical practice and it's something that you would

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Speaker 1: find in an obstetrician's kit. In order to do this,

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Speaker 1: you also have to have retractors, which are going to

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Speaker 1: kind of hold back to tissue. Remember, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that you're doing in a U C section delivery

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Speaker 1: is your actually going through the abdominal wall and then

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Speaker 1: into the top of the uterus. This is not something

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Speaker 1: that is going to stay in place. It has to

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Speaker 1: be retracted, kind of pulled away in order to remove

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Speaker 1: the baby from the mother's tummy. These are all items

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Speaker 1: and there's a whole variety. I mean, people can look

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Speaker 1: this up. There's a whole list of these items that

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Speaker 1: come in a kit. But do you think about the

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Speaker 1: person that would sit down and do this, that they

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Speaker 1: would think about, well, what do I need to show

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Speaker 1: up with? Well, at a baseline, they're showing up with

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Speaker 1: a scalpel. And there's a very particular way that surgeons,

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Speaker 1: trained surgeons go about this. And here's something kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting that a lot of people don't understand when surgeons

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Speaker 1: make incisions into bodies, for instance, c sections in an example,

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Speaker 1: in a standard operating environment like surgical environment, they follow

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Speaker 1: what are referred to most of the time, not every time, okay,

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Speaker 1: but most of the time they're gonna follow what are

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Speaker 1: called the Langer line. And for all of my veterans

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Speaker 1: that are in the audience of any of us that

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Speaker 1: have ever been through basic training, particularly the Army and

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps, you have to learn to read a

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Speaker 1: contour map. Well. Linger lines are actually the contours of

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Speaker 1: the body, isn't That's something. So the body actually has

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Speaker 1: its own grain to it. You don't see it, but

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Speaker 1: it's there, and surgeons study this and what happens is

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Speaker 1: is that when you go against the grain on a body, okay,

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Speaker 1: when you go against the grain on a body and

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Speaker 1: you attempt to cut across these their lines of tension

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Speaker 1: is actually what it is. When you go across those

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Speaker 1: lines of tension, then you get these ghastly wounds. And

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that let me stop you, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I want to make sure that I understand this,

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Speaker 1: and I do not mean I am not trying to

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Speaker 1: make light of anything, But I can't obviously imagine cutting

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Speaker 1: a person. So let's say I was cutting a steak. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So basically what you're telling me is is like cutting

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Speaker 1: across the grain if you're trying to trim or cut

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Speaker 1: a stage. Yeah, kind of kind of like that. And

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Speaker 1: for folks that don't really fully grasp this, I'll give

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Speaker 1: you even a better example. If anyone has ever had

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Speaker 1: a nasty blunt force laceration that occurs on the top

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Speaker 1: of your head or anywhere on your body where you

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Speaker 1: impact a location, if you've ever heard a term or

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Speaker 1: someone in terms the description of the injury as being

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Speaker 1: a jagged laceration, the reason it's jagged is because that

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Speaker 1: impact area has gone against the grain, against the linger lines,

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Speaker 1: and so it opens up in a very nasty fashion.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't know what you're doing, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have this presentation, and particularly where you've got this young

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Speaker 1: mother that's fighting for her life and apparently in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, the authorities believe at least that Reagan mercifully

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Speaker 1: was actually deceased. When you know, this perpetrator opened up

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Speaker 1: her wounb and remove this precious angel. So you not

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Speaker 1: only have to have the right instruments. Obviously scalpel is

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Speaker 1: going to be your number one item, but something sharp

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Speaker 1: to do this with. But the main thing you have

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Speaker 1: to worry about is if you are the perpetrator, how

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Speaker 1: you do the C section to not injure the baby,

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Speaker 1: because let's be realistic, there's nothing delicate about what was

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Speaker 1: done to Reagan. There's nothing delicate about this, but you

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Speaker 1: have to be delicate if you are trying to save

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Speaker 1: a child. Yeah, and if it is the desire of

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Speaker 1: of a perpetrator in case like this to have a

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Speaker 1: viable baby. The technique which is employed here is going

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Speaker 1: to be critical because just entering the body, you're going

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Speaker 1: through the external abdominal wall here, which you have a

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Speaker 1: layer of skin, and then you have a layer of

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Speaker 1: subcue fact that you can go through, and then any

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Speaker 1: kind of fascia which is kind of that white tissue

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Speaker 1: that's on the back side of the normal wall, and

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Speaker 1: then you get down to the organs and you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get down into the uterus, the top of the uars,

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Speaker 1: the roof of it as they have referred to it,

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Speaker 1: and you've got all kinds of other structures that are

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Speaker 1: in there. Too. If you don't know enough about anatomy,

390
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Speaker 1: if you're trying to get a viable child, then you

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Speaker 1: can clip other things as well. That might send a

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Speaker 1: mother into a cardiac arrest. So you have to be careful.

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Speaker 1: And that's why you know things like forceps. We refer

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Speaker 1: to them as pickups tweezers. Some people might think about that.

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Speaker 1: We use big force ups. You know, you have to

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Speaker 1: lift the roof of the uterus before you can make

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Speaker 1: the incision. Because this is the problem that you run

398
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Speaker 1: up against. If you're not skilled at what you're doing,

399
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Speaker 1: you're going to harm the child. And that's all I

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Speaker 1: will say about that point, because it's so ghastly. Beyond that,

401
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Speaker 1: there's a term that we use in the forensics. It's

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Speaker 1: called masceration, which is where you have mascerated organs. And

403
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Speaker 1: I've seen mascerated children as well, and it's a total

404
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 1: destruction within the womb in various cases. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: it appears that this little angel was the end game here.

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00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: That's what this perpetrator wanted. Jackie so sad in Reagan's home,

407
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Speaker 1: in her own home where she should feel safe and protected.

408
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: They're on that floor. The child was delivered into this world,

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Speaker 1: and Reagan's body just kind of laid there, twisted and

410
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Speaker 1: having bled out and dead and perpetrating left with the baby.

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Speaker 1: There are babies that do survive outside the worm as

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Speaker 1: young as twenty two weeks gestational age, but it's you

413
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Speaker 1: have to be on top of things. I mean, you

414
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: have to be there with a mother that has given

415
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: birth and a hospital that has neo natal intensive care

416
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: unit and nick you and you have to have skilled

417
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Speaker 1: people that are all around. Thank God for those people.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, this child was down range about

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Speaker 1: seven and a half months. In the normal gestational age

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Speaker 1: at birth is somewhere, you know, varies. Thirty forty weeks

421
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Speaker 1: is generally what they're looking at, but in this case,

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Speaker 1: the baby was removed at seven and a half months.

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Speaker 1: While Jess Brooks was finding her daughter lying dead on

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Speaker 1: her living room floor. Across the state, a Texas State

425
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Speaker 1: trooper was pulling over a car for speeding, and inside

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Speaker 1: he finds Taylor Parker, who ultimately is the perpetrator in

427
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: this case, giving CPR to a newborn and Parker told

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Speaker 1: the trooper that she gave birth on the side of

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Speaker 1: the road, but the baby wasn't breathing, and the trooper

430
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: said he could see an umbilical cord connected to the

431
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: infant coming out of the female's pan side of the

432
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: Parker's pants, and then Parker and the newborn were rushed

433
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: to a hospital and the baby died. But not only

434
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: was the umbilical cord stuffed down Parker's pants, but the

435
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: placenta was also inside Parker's pants, giving the impression that

436
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: she had given birth. How did she get it? Where

437
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: did it come from? Explain to us most of us

438
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: have heard the term placenta. Tell us what it is.

439
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: The placinda is that, and it's it's the sack that

440
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: literally provides a protected environment for the developing baby, and

441
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: the baby is contained within the sack kind of free

442
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: floating in there, cushioned from the outside world, in addition

443
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: to the cushioning that that the mother's wound creates as well.

444
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: But it is essential for life. Okay, you have the

445
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: umbilical cord that is in dwelling there, that's providing nourishment

446
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: for the baby from the mother. The placenta. It's a

447
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: further guarantee of viability that the child will develop to

448
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: the point where the child can survive outside of the

449
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: mother's body. And I think that anybody that was thinking

450
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: about kind of pulling this off, and anticipating pulling this off,

451
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: they knew enough that they would have to present with

452
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: these three elements. Obviously, you mentioned the placenta, the umbilical cord,

453
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: as well as the baby. And it's interesting that the

454
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: umbilical cord is still attached to the baby. You know that,

455
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: And I can, you know, reflect back to my my

456
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: precious children all those years ago when I had the

457
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: privilege of snipping the umbilical cord. And I'm sure that

458
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: many people in the audience have heard of this and

459
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: maybe even experienced as well. As it's a great moment time.

460
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: But in this case, the child was there and she

461
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: tried to feign pregnancy, and I think from a just

462
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: a demonstrative standpoint, this person believes that if she presents

463
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: with the placenta and with the umbilical cord and not

464
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: just a baby, it's going to further convince the medical

465
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: staff at whatever hospital she winds up in that she

466
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: is actually the birth mother. I would imagine for the

467
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: state trooper that was involved in this, they probably were

468
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: kind of scratching their head too. Maybe for a moment

469
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: they thought, oh wow, they're witnessing a miracle here, But

470
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: after they begin to think about this and they're they're

471
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: assessing this individual that is telling them the story. The

472
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: trooper doesn't have any choice whatsoever but to get an

473
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: ambulance en route as quickly as possible what we call

474
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: CO three lights and irons and roll into that location

475
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: and placing this person and the baby and the ambulance

476
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: to get them to the hospital. And you know, I

477
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: think that that was the goal all the way along.

478
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: H that that's the reason that these elements and evidence

479
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: in this person's mind of birth were necessary. She's running

480
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: a game here, and it's horrible as it sounds. These

481
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: are props. That's what this comes down to. It's it's

482
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: horrible the props that have been delivered from Reagan. This

483
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 1: poor woman who's been butchered in her home. These are

484
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: props to try to feign a pregnancy and give the

485
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: impression that she's given birth. And it isn't it amazing

486
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: that she's traveling with this child? And I can't really

487
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: even imagine what's going on in this person's mind. Is

488
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: a rolling down the road to the hospital is seeking

489
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: help because they want the child to be viable. They

490
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: have been feigning that they are the mother, and how

491
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: are you going to convince some medical staff trust me?

492
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: This is not the medical staff first rodeo. They have

493
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: seen mothers that have walked into the e ER, have

494
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: been driven to the e R, that have given birth

495
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: outside the hospital. So they're looking for particular things like

496
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: what Joe. Because Taylor Parker when she got to the

497
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: hospital refused, originally refused to be checked by a doctor,

498
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: knowing the they would obviously see the details that would

499
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: prove that she hadn't given birth, But can you kind

500
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: of guide me through that the body differences that would

501
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: have been the big red flags to say, oh no,

502
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: that that's not what happened here. Well, yeah, I mean

503
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: just essentially, if you're looking at this person and assessing them,

504
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: which physicians do in the emergency from nurses do too.

505
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: Nurses are probably better at it than the doctors. Doctors

506
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: gonna treat you in and out, But I love nurses

507
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: in this sense. They can figure things out real real quickly.

508
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: They're real in tune to this sort of thing. So

509
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: they're looking at at her presentation relative to her body,

510
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: the way she's responding. Is this the way a postpartum

511
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: mother would be responding in this moment, relative to her

512
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: ability to speak, her orientation to time and space. Is

513
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: there any kind of bleeding? Do they still see bleeding?

514
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: Issuing out, I mean you had mentioned that the placenta

515
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: was actually contained within her pants, okay, and then the

516
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: umbilical cord was leading from there to this little angel's body. Well,

517
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: was there continued bleeding? Because with a vaginal birth, you're

518
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: still going to have bleeding if if things have not

519
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: been assessed and treated properly at that moment in time,

520
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: in the first few moments of the postpartum state, it

521
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: requires rest, it requires downtime on the mother, and she's

522
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: not presenting that way, And then I would imagine they

523
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: would think it's very curious that this individual would not

524
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: want to be assessed that you know, they don't want

525
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: to disrobe, they don't want them to take a look

526
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: at them. And with a vaginal birth, one of the

527
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: assessments that's made, you know, prior to delivery vaginally is

528
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: that they have these markers for what's referred to as dilation.

529
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: And this this is a natural occurrence where the vaginal

530
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: opening is beginning to open further and further, and you know,

531
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: you go to dilation relative in it's measured in centimeters.

532
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: One of the obvious things that you would look for

533
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: is what she dilated at all? Is there any evidence

534
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: of that? Because if if she hasn't given birth, then

535
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: the vagina and the vaginal opening is going to appear

536
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: in its normal state. And so how do you explain

537
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: the fact that you have this baby, You have this

538
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: baby with the biblical cord still attached, and there's no

539
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: evidence of a birth per their fiscal examination. I can't

540
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: even begin to fathom the reaction of the medical staff

541
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: as they're standing there. They're probably eyeball on one another

542
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: and thinking, you know, when the hell is going on here?

543
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that that this is actually her child

544
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: because there's no evidence of this. We must be witnessing

545
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: a miracle. Either that or she's lying to us. Ultimately,

546
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: this baby died. Did the baby die because it was

547
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: not viable? Did it die? Do you think because it

548
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: was injured during the horrific removal from its mother's body.

549
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: Now I think that this is a grievously traumatic situation

550
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: for this baby to have survived in. First off, you've

551
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: got this, you know, this kind of adrenaline rush that's

552
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: going on with a mother where she's fighting for her life.

553
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: That's going to impact I think some folks might disagree,

554
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: but I think that that's going to impact the baby's

555
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: ability to survive. Additionally, we don't actually know what kind

556
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: of trauma may have been inflicted on on this child,

557
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, during the course of this just barbaric act

558
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: that this this person perpetrated on Reagan. And then you

559
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: have to think about post delivery care of a child.

560
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's certain things that have to be done

561
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: with a baby, and I think a lot of us

562
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: have this image of the old timey doctor inverting a

563
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: baby by their ankles and speaking on the backside and

564
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: the baby starts squalling, and obviously that's something that has

565
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: occurred and still does curb you. You begin to think

566
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: about suctioning the baby's nose, checking the baby's vitals to

567
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: see if they're all within norm parameters, and we cannot

568
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: forget that even though seven and a half months is

569
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: in fact viable, you're still talking about a premature baby

570
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: at this point, and every baby is different, Okay, every

571
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: baby is different relative to the gestational development. Are their

572
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: lungs sufficient to the task in order to handle breathing

573
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: at that point in time processing of of oxygen? Is

574
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: the heart sufficient to the task in order to have

575
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: appropriate circulation throughout the body. There's all kinds of metabolic

576
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: considerations with a child. And of course you've got this

577
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: huge gap in time because of this horrible act where

578
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: we don't really know how much time had elapsed since

579
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: her baby was stolen from her, from Reagan's body within

580
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: her home, to the point that this person was finally

581
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: pulled over by the state troopers. You were talking about

582
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: being prepared to do this act to remove the baby

583
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: from its mother's womb outside of a surgical suite. And

584
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: what's really interesting is to learn that, according to testimony

585
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: in this trial, Taylor Parker bought a fake baby bump.

586
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: She posted pictures on her social media saying that she

587
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: was pregnant. She had internet searches on her devices, a

588
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: fake ultrasound scan online, a purchase dozens of baby belly

589
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: photos and selfies. She stalked obe clinics in East Texas

590
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: and Shreveport looking for places where she could find pregnant women,

591
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: even looking up the license plates of patients coming out.

592
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 1: She searched online for private adoptions and out of hospital

593
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: birth certificates, and according to testimony, she even watched videos

594
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: just days before the murder on how to do with

595
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: c section and how to examine a newborn, and there

596
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: was even a spoof cell phone number used to contact

597
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: Reagan Hancock. What are your final thoughts, Joe, when you

598
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: begin to think about this kind of prosthetic device that's

599
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 1: being used to try to fool every body into thinking

600
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: that you're with child and the imagery you know that

601
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: you're you're generating off of off of the Internet, and

602
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: the idea that that you're in a celebratory mood going

603
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: in to this butchery is what it comes down to.

604
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 1: This baby and Reagan both I've never had a chance.

605
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: So at the conclusion of a trial, Taylor and A

606
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: Parker twenty nine, was found guilty of murdering Reagan Michelle

607
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: Simmons Hancock, who was only twenty one years of age.

608
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs