Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1: Term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in sort of early mid November
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five. We are going to be talking
Speaker 2: about rekindling the work flame, so long time listeners may
Speaker 2: recall it. A few months ago we had an episode
Speaker 2: called keep It Hot, which was about long term romantic
Speaker 2: partnerships and how one could keep the flame live there.
Speaker 2: And it turns out that there are some parallels with
Speaker 2: work as well. If you've been in your job for
Speaker 2: a great many years, sometimes things can start to feel
Speaker 2: a little bit stale, less exciting than you might hope.
Speaker 2: But there are things that you can do to make
Speaker 2: your work life more exciting and interesting for you as well, now,
Speaker 2: obviously there are some key differences between your marriage and
Speaker 2: your job. One is that you should definitely change jobs
Speaker 2: if you get a much better offer of something you
Speaker 2: would rather do where there are a few more repercussions
Speaker 2: doing that. With your marriage, you probably really want to
Speaker 2: think about that with all the trauma that what we cause.
Speaker 2: But you know, the grass is not always greener, and
Speaker 2: so sometimes when people think we need a different job,
Speaker 2: you know, all jobs have their issues. I've definitely seen
Speaker 2: people in yours report to me that they're like, Oh,
Speaker 2: this job is so stressful and terrible. My coworkers are
Speaker 2: awful and you can't trust them. And then you're like,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get a different job. It's like great, great,
Speaker 2: go do that. And then within the first year at
Speaker 2: that job, they're like, oh, it's so awful and stressful
Speaker 2: and I'm working all the time and my coworkers are
Speaker 2: tarable and I can't trust them. It's like, hmm, there's
Speaker 2: a similarity, one thing in common for sure, between these
Speaker 2: two jobs. So we need to sometimes look at ourselves
Speaker 2: as well. But anyway, Sarah, you've been in your job
Speaker 2: for a great many years. Sarah, maybe you can talk
Speaker 2: about how you've come to think about this.
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, I have been in my clinical job for
Speaker 3: twelve years now, very exciting, really kind of getting up there.
Speaker 3: I feel like once maybe in the upper teams, I'll
Speaker 3: really feel like, Okay, I am old guard.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm mid guard right now.
Speaker 3: So, but recently I was just having some nothing specific,
Speaker 3: just like minor job angst. I think everyone knows. Healthcare,
Speaker 3: you know, has a lot of stuff going on right now,
Speaker 3: especially like insurance types of issues and things like that.
Speaker 3: And I just found myself wondering, like, are there things
Speaker 3: I can do to feel more engaged at work and
Speaker 3: to maybe embrace the positive things about it, and like
Speaker 3: see if I can enjoy my day to day a
Speaker 3: little little bit more. And I thought of it as
Speaker 3: kind of an experiment, because really, if I was continuing
Speaker 3: to feel down about certain things, then maybe it would
Speaker 3: have been time to think about different situations. And I
Speaker 3: actually did find that some of the things I tried
Speaker 3: ended up helping me, Like, I feel more content than
Speaker 3: I did even a couple of months ago, with no
Speaker 3: real change in the other the things that were bothering me.
Speaker 3: I guess, so I guess this kind of inspired some
Speaker 3: of these tips, and this episode as well as of
Speaker 3: course are keep it hot episode because everyone should go
Speaker 3: back and listen to that if they.
Speaker 2: Haven't, absolutely, so, yes, we're going to keep it hot
Speaker 2: at work.
Speaker 1: So one of the.
Speaker 2: Things you can do, I mean, obviously in many situations
Speaker 2: that feeling a bit stale is you can reflect on
Speaker 2: what you actually like about it, right, So, I mean,
Speaker 2: there are the things you.
Speaker 1: Truly love about your clinical job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you should sit there with a pen and paper,
Speaker 3: and even if you are in one of those moments
Speaker 3: when you're thinking about fire or you're thinking about some
Speaker 3: dressed career pivot, think about what you would lose if
Speaker 3: you were to do a change. And that is going
Speaker 3: to basically be a list of the things that you
Speaker 3: do like about your current situation. Because we can tend
Speaker 3: to be biased towards you know, what's wrong, what's the
Speaker 3: thing we want to fix, you know, what's that nagging
Speaker 3: situation or something like that, But maybe there's also some
Speaker 3: great things about going to work every day, whether it
Speaker 3: is seeing colleagues that you like. Maybe your work hours
Speaker 3: are actually pretty darn reasonable. When you do your time
Speaker 3: tracking and you look at it and you're like huh,
Speaker 3: my hourly pay, my work hours are manageable. I don't
Speaker 3: feel stressed outside of work.
Speaker 1: Things like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe those things don't apply to you, but
Speaker 3: I think it is important. And it can be tangible
Speaker 3: stuff too, like again, your compensation or your paid time off,
Speaker 3: or even things like opportunity to learn or opportunity to
Speaker 3: feel like you have meeting at certain points during your job.
Speaker 3: Might not be every minute, but maybe there's like a
Speaker 3: moment per week where you feel really good. You should
Speaker 3: reflect on those things, and I highly recommend like literally
Speaker 3: writing them down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do I love about my job? What would
Speaker 2: I miss if I weren't doing this? And even if
Speaker 2: you do wind up finding something else, having a list
Speaker 2: of what you really like will be helpful.
Speaker 1: As you go into the search.
Speaker 2: You're like, actually, it really is important to me that
Speaker 2: I have some flexibility over my hours. And then you know,
Speaker 2: when you're negotiating your next position, you're like, look, I
Speaker 2: need this, see this list. These things have to happen
Speaker 2: here for me to leave. What is a reasonable situation
Speaker 2: to go do something else? So, yeah, you definitely want
Speaker 2: that list. You also might want to consider trying a
Speaker 2: few things. One is engaging more with your colleagues, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like if you are in a down moment,
Speaker 3: your instinct might actually be to pull back. I don't
Speaker 3: feel like responding to that group chat, I don't want
Speaker 3: to go to that party.
Speaker 1: What meetings can I get out of?
Speaker 3: And sometimes I think that can really really backfire because like,
Speaker 3: the less engaged you are, the less engaged you will be.
Speaker 3: So perhaps forcing yourself to like put your opinion in there,
Speaker 3: if you have experience and you know you have something
Speaker 3: to add or make sure to attend that gathering, that
Speaker 3: can actually paradoxically help. Now, of course, if you're just
Speaker 3: burned out and you're dispending way too much time at work,
Speaker 3: I'm not like advocating to add a bunch of extras,
Speaker 3: but look to see if there are things or like
Speaker 3: little ways in which you can maybe participate, because you
Speaker 3: actually might find that igniting rather than adding to the
Speaker 3: burden side of work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you also want to notice little good moments, right,
Speaker 2: like a work love of the week as it were.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you have a day where something
Speaker 3: went really well, like write that down somewhere or like
Speaker 3: actually think about it or reflect on it and if
Speaker 3: you can't find any Like if a week goes by
Speaker 3: and you're like, I cannot think of a single positive
Speaker 3: thing that I did relate it to my work, that
Speaker 3: actually probably is something that needs to be thought about.
Speaker 3: Either are there ways to maybe alter your situation to
Speaker 3: add in more of those small winds, or maybe you
Speaker 3: do need to make some kind of change, because I
Speaker 3: think we're going to talk about how, yes, your job
Speaker 3: is not all of your waking hours, but it's a
Speaker 3: sizeable enough chunk of your waking hours and energy that
Speaker 3: if there is literally nothing you can pull out that
Speaker 3: brings you a little bit of satisfaction or joy, I
Speaker 3: do think that's.
Speaker 1: Kind of problematic. Yeah, I don't know, Like, can we
Speaker 1: think of some examples for me?
Speaker 3: I had a call week recently and it was a
Speaker 3: totally stressful call week because I have never seen a
Speaker 3: list this long. But I ended up having a case
Speaker 3: where I kind of figured something out in a very
Speaker 3: rare type of a condition and I felt so good
Speaker 3: about that, and I could tell the parent felt really
Speaker 3: relieve that we figured something out, and she felt like
Speaker 3: I was very much trying hard to figure it out.
Speaker 3: And then I like ended up seeing her the week
Speaker 3: after and like, I'm following this patient really closely, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, wow, this is what I did this for,
Speaker 3: not focusing on maybe how some other patient was very
Speaker 3: upset at us because their insurance didn't cover a certain med.
Speaker 1: So what about you, Like, are there good.
Speaker 3: Moments that you reflect on sometimes maybe at the end
Speaker 3: of a week, like a great interview or I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a little different.
Speaker 2: Just because you know, you run your own business over
Speaker 2: long years, you tend to least I do, orient it
Speaker 2: toward things that I actually want to do. So I
Speaker 2: have a very low tolerance for things that I don't
Speaker 2: want to do, and that means that there's a lot
Speaker 2: of love of the weeks. Right I'm enjoying recording this
Speaker 2: right now. I'm you know, like writing things. I'm always
Speaker 2: excited when I get nice feedback from people on something
Speaker 2: that they've read of mine and it was impactful in
Speaker 2: their life in some way.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot it.
Speaker 3: Must have been fun to get those images. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you can share a lot about that. But
Speaker 3: the actual physical way that your book is going to
Speaker 3: look is starting to take shape, and that's exciting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, well there's obviously things that like there's annoyances
Speaker 2: in every job, right, Like I'm going through the copy
Speaker 2: edits of my book and something was changed that now
Speaker 2: all needs to be changed back, which is just extra time.
Speaker 2: But we're making the best possible book, so it's good
Speaker 2: to ask these things. And you know, again I also
Speaker 2: remind myself like if we're arguing over very very tiny details,
Speaker 2: like that's a good place to be in, Like there's
Speaker 2: not big stuff that's being changed with anything. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I got to see covers, which is was just really exciting,
Speaker 2: Like when you have a cover you're excited about and
Speaker 2: you can actually picture a version of this in bookstores
Speaker 2: that you're like, that's what the book is going to
Speaker 2: look like. That's this idea that I had years ago
Speaker 2: is now going to be this physical thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just a very exciting. I'm using that word way
Speaker 2: too much, but you know, I do like it. And
Speaker 2: when there's things I really don't like that I do
Speaker 2: my best to get rid of them, which we'll get
Speaker 2: to in a moment.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I just want to add to as we
Speaker 3: were talking about engagement, I had a special note to
Speaker 3: just bring up like participating in the social extras, because
Speaker 3: most jobs do have things that are entirely optional. And again,
Speaker 3: if you're in that like burnt out mode, you're going
Speaker 3: to skip the baby shower or not organize the lunch.
Speaker 1: But sometimes those are like some of the most rewarding.
Speaker 3: Parts, depending on where you are in your career and
Speaker 3: what you're doing and how hard the rest of it is.
Speaker 3: So I very much encourage people to say yes to
Speaker 3: those little.
Speaker 2: Extras yeah, or come up with them your own if
Speaker 2: you are working by yourself, which over the past few years,
Speaker 2: I've definitely been more proactive about building work relationships and
Speaker 2: sort of recurring things that you see people that you
Speaker 2: work with. You don't really work with them, you both
Speaker 2: are doing similar work, but they become sort of like
Speaker 2: colleagues because you see them and talk with them frequently
Speaker 2: and they know what's going on in your working life,
Speaker 2: and you can create those and that can definitely make
Speaker 2: work feel more exciting for sure. Now, obviously, if there
Speaker 2: are people who are toxic, we want to get away
Speaker 2: from that, right Sarah.
Speaker 3: I mean, that is something that can make I've talked
Speaker 3: to multiple people who it sometimes can just come down
Speaker 3: to one person, and maybe even an interurn move where
Speaker 3: you're almost doing the same job, which but just with
Speaker 3: a different supervisor or different coworker.
Speaker 1: Might make all the difference.
Speaker 3: So I do feel if you can pinpoint a ton
Speaker 3: of your angs to one person, sometimes that is a
Speaker 3: situation that it's like, no, I would focus on changing that.
Speaker 2: You don't have to change jobs per se, But I
Speaker 2: don't know the one thing. You know, if you can
Speaker 2: get rid of the one pain point, that would be
Speaker 2: really helpful. We're going to take a quick ad break
Speaker 2: and then we would be back with more on rekindling
Speaker 2: the flame at work.
Speaker 1: Well, we are back.
Speaker 2: Talking about how we can rekindle the flame at work.
Speaker 2: You know, it's the keep it hot version for not
Speaker 2: a marriage, but a job that you have been in
Speaker 2: for many years, if not a decade or more so.
Speaker 2: One thing you can do is we talked about making
Speaker 2: a list of what you enjoy at your job, the
Speaker 2: things that you like. Are there ways you could craft
Speaker 2: your job to spend more time on the things you like,
Speaker 2: And again, it doesn't have to be much. We don't
Speaker 2: have to say, well, I was spending two hours a
Speaker 2: week on this and now I'm gonna be spending twenty
Speaker 2: five on it, And if you're gonna pull that off,
Speaker 2: great more power to you. But if you are spending
Speaker 2: two hours a week on it, could you spend three
Speaker 2: or four? Right? Is that something that you could get
Speaker 2: to Would you be able to trim other things, maybe
Speaker 2: be a little bit less responsive on the email in
Speaker 2: order to carve out some time for this, or delegate
Speaker 2: a meeting to somebody else to spend a little bit
Speaker 2: more time on your favorite work. That can be the
Speaker 2: equivalent of putting in a date night into your long
Speaker 2: term partnership. That makes it feel a little bit more
Speaker 2: like this is something you are excited about totally.
Speaker 3: And I feel like I've engaged in that sort of
Speaker 3: career crafting on both sides of what I do, whether
Speaker 3: it's emphasizing certain types of specialty clinics or on the
Speaker 3: creative side, like, oh, I really like talking about planning
Speaker 3: and teaching about planning, you know what, I'll go hard
Speaker 3: in that direction because it's so much fun for me.
Speaker 3: I mean that no one was like, hey, I think
Speaker 3: that is what you should do, but like I really
Speaker 3: enjoyed it, and so that both ended up resonating and
Speaker 3: ended up being like a really satisfying part of my job.
Speaker 3: Sometimes efforts of this fail. Fun fact, my Giant Health
Speaker 3: System at one point was like, we're starting a podcast,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I should host the podcast. You guys,
Speaker 3: I didn't even get a call back, which is hilarious,
Speaker 3: Like what insulted?
Speaker 1: I mean, why why? Why didn't they?
Speaker 3: It's okay, I actually don't even know if they move
Speaker 3: forward with the project. To be honest, this is like
Speaker 3: a few years ago, and it might have just been like,
Speaker 3: never mind, we're not really doing this. But I look
Speaker 3: to see, like, oh, has this podcast like hit the charts,
Speaker 3: like who's doing it? And I couldn't find it, So okay,
Speaker 3: it might have just been that they moved on.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe it never happened, but yeah, yeah, no, that
Speaker 2: was the hot thing for a while, Like every organization
Speaker 2: has to have their own podcast, but you don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know how hard this is. Okay, they don't,
Speaker 1: they don't. In fact, you appreciate your own podcast. You
Speaker 1: should think long and hard about that.
Speaker 2: But with trying to add more time of the things
Speaker 2: that you want to do, there's also the case to
Speaker 2: be made for spending less time on the things that
Speaker 2: you do not want to do now done right, Delegating
Speaker 2: and outsourcing is not so much just about getting rid
Speaker 2: of things you don't want to do. It is about
Speaker 2: recognizing what is the highest value of your time, and
Speaker 2: even if you can do something really well, sometimes that
Speaker 2: is not the best way for you to be spending
Speaker 2: your time. So Sarah can give an excellent checkout for
Speaker 2: her her patient visits, but as you might imagine, it
Speaker 2: would be best for her to move on to the
Speaker 2: next patient and start seeing the next patient to write Sarah.
Speaker 3: Correct or things like you know, I'll get a message
Speaker 3: in my inbox. It's like, can you print these lab
Speaker 3: orders that you've already ordered and send them to this box? Like,
Speaker 3: I will happily for that to someone who will help
Speaker 3: me do that so I can do something else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even though I'm sure I'd be pretty good at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or I mean all of the things with the
Speaker 2: not getting into it much both insurance, with the various
Speaker 2: box checking and organization level skills required for this, it
Speaker 2: turns out someone like Sarah is excellent at that. But again,
Speaker 2: is it the best use of a physician's time to
Speaker 2: be doing those things?
Speaker 1: So looking for opportunities like that, right, Sarah, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and if you are doing any sort of work,
Speaker 2: really you can think about, well, Okay, I could do X,
Speaker 2: but could I find somebody else to help me with X?
Speaker 2: And so certainly over the years, you know, I have
Speaker 2: a virtual assistant. Now I have some help with drafting
Speaker 2: and coming up with ideas for different things, certainly with
Speaker 2: the statistical aspects of my challenges, and that's made it
Speaker 2: possible for me to spend more of my time actually writing,
Speaker 2: which turns out that the content creation part of my
Speaker 2: job is what I love doing most. So the more
Speaker 2: time I can spend on that and the less time
Speaker 2: I spend on other things, the better off we are.
Speaker 3: I've never edited up podcast track. I have no idea
Speaker 3: how to do that. And I also hire a designer
Speaker 3: to make all of my kind of PDF workbooks and
Speaker 3: things because I know she does it so much better
Speaker 3: than I would ever do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, with that, there might be some new technologies that
Speaker 2: can help make your work easier or more interesting. I
Speaker 2: mean you're leaning into that with sort of the medical
Speaker 2: literature search concept right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Open evidence if you haven't used it is an awesome
Speaker 3: tool that is sort of like chat GPT mixed with PubMed,
Speaker 3: so it actually like pulls the sources of the information
Speaker 3: that it spits out, but it spits it out in
Speaker 3: very digestible form, and it's really good for answering very
Speaker 3: specific questions, like you're like, well, how often do patients
Speaker 3: with this condition not test gene positive? Like that would
Speaker 3: take a little time to dig out, but open evidence
Speaker 3: can find that very very quickly and give you citations
Speaker 3: so you can double check. So I do feel like
Speaker 3: we're like, yeah, we're in a sweet spot right now
Speaker 3: with AI, where like your job isn't eaten yet, but
Speaker 3: you can possibly benefit, so yeah, definitely better.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Well, I mean I don't use AI
Speaker 2: to write for me, but in many cases sometimes.
Speaker 1: AI writes better than some people.
Speaker 2: So uh, that could be a thing that would be
Speaker 2: helpful if you don't find writing fun creating first drafts
Speaker 2: of things, having a system create a first draft within
Speaker 2: your parameters that you didn't go in and make better.
Speaker 3: What if I was like I do that with every
Speaker 3: blog post. I never write them anymore. There are certain
Speaker 3: context where it's just so like no, please.
Speaker 2: No, like the whole time or enjoying writing my you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Like that personal angle, like this came from a human
Speaker 3: who is having these real human thoughts that they're putting
Speaker 3: out there.
Speaker 1: Like I guess we're just saying be.
Speaker 2: Judicial, but I mean, like, obviously, you know, it could
Speaker 2: make your resume look better or whatever. You know, there's
Speaker 2: all sorts of things that like you or you know,
Speaker 2: if you have to answer a couple quick questions for
Speaker 2: a conference prep work, like, you know, there's all sorts
Speaker 2: of ways that you can use it as your assistant
Speaker 2: and make life a little bit easier for you, which
Speaker 2: might help you spend more time on the favorite kinds
Speaker 2: of work that you do enjoy. And then you can
Speaker 2: obviously do things like take good breaks. So people have
Speaker 2: varying amounts of control over what they spend their work
Speaker 2: time doing, but we all have some control over the
Speaker 2: time at work when we are not working, and everyone
Speaker 2: takes breaks. It is just a question of whether they
Speaker 2: are intentional or not. You know, I've had people tell me, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't take breaks. I just read email newsletters here
Speaker 2: and there. When I get a few minutes, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: that's a break.
Speaker 1: That's a break.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but maybe that's not the most rejuvening thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: I love email newsletters. You should definitely read mind you
Speaker 2: would probably find that a great break. But if that's
Speaker 2: not making you feel rejuvenated, then think about what can
Speaker 2: I do, Like, what are two ten minute many vacations
Speaker 2: I could take in the course of my day, Like
Speaker 2: what would maximize my relaxation or rejuvenation in ten to
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes that I can plan in twice during the day.
Speaker 2: How can I make sure that that happens and that
Speaker 2: I enjoy that as much as possible?
Speaker 3: For me, it's a walk outside and then also doing
Speaker 3: exactly what you just said, but like reading blogs and
Speaker 3: responding to them, like but purposefully purpose Like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: know I have forty minutes, so I want to walk
Speaker 3: for twenty minutes, and then I want to like catch
Speaker 3: up on my parasocial relationships for twenty minutes on blogs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it could be anything. I mean, make yourself
Speaker 2: a list of potential breaks. Maybe it's reading a chapter
Speaker 2: in a book. Maybe it's calling a friend, Maybe it's
Speaker 2: going for a walk. Maybe if you're working at home,
Speaker 2: it could be something like going out to your garden
Speaker 2: for a few minutes. Maybe if you know you get
Speaker 2: coffee with a work friend, You could read a magazine,
Speaker 2: you could listen to some inspiring music, go outside and
Speaker 2: listen to a podcast for a bit to just get
Speaker 2: some sunshine. Lots of things you can do, but when
Speaker 2: you have a list ahead of time, then you're not
Speaker 2: sort of stumped for what to do. Would open time
Speaker 2: appears And when we're stumped, we don't sit there and go, huh,
Speaker 2: what would I do? We just do whatever as easiest,
Speaker 2: which again is going to be deleting emails that didn't
Speaker 2: have to be deleted, then reading headlines. These are our
Speaker 2: electronic hobbies. So if you want to spend a little
Speaker 2: less time on your electronic hobbies and more on your
Speaker 2: real hobbies, creating a break portfolio for each day can
Speaker 2: help you do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think if you struggle with this, this is one
Speaker 3: where like creating a little sticky note or a little reminder,
Speaker 3: you don't have to have that forever, but might actually
Speaker 3: encourage you like, oh right, I identify these things I
Speaker 3: want to do.
Speaker 1: Let me try to not just go to those defaults.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would say if you do have more
Speaker 2: flexibility with your time and more autonomy, you can get
Speaker 2: a little bit adventurous in your breaks.
Speaker 1: Adventures don't have to only happen on weekends.
Speaker 2: Now, obviously you are not going to take probably a
Speaker 2: full hour out to every day, but maybe you consciously
Speaker 2: take like a quick lunch two or three days, and
Speaker 2: then on a day that you're working from home, go somewhere,
Speaker 2: like go to that museum, go walk it apart, go
Speaker 2: meet a friend, and have a leisurely lunch.
Speaker 1: But actually really lean into that.
Speaker 2: So you have something memorable that you've done and you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that my job pays me good money and allows me
Speaker 2: to do this, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1: Some people really do have an hour two and you
Speaker 1: can do a lot.
Speaker 3: I was thinking, like you could get your nails done, like,
Speaker 3: you could do a pretty significant workout. You could browse
Speaker 3: a bookstore, like, There's a lot you could choose to
Speaker 3: do if you have a full hour and the ability.
Speaker 1: To go somewhere.
Speaker 2: Which again, if you do have a full hour or
Speaker 2: even you know, forty five minutes or whatever, if you
Speaker 2: actually truly do get this time and it's expected that
Speaker 2: you will do something not at your work, which is
Speaker 2: certainly the case in certain jobs, and some you actually
Speaker 2: have to punch out for a certain amount of time
Speaker 2: in the middle of the day. Don't go into the
Speaker 2: day not knowing what you're going to do.
Speaker 1: Now you can change it.
Speaker 2: Like if your favorite colleague is like, hey, did you
Speaker 2: see that food truck is over two blocks away, Let's
Speaker 2: go get lunch together. Like, obviously, change what you are
Speaker 2: doing and go do that. But having an idea of
Speaker 2: what you want to do will make the work day
Speaker 2: a lot more pleasant. All Right, We're going to take
Speaker 2: one more quick ad break and then we'll move back
Speaker 2: with more on keeping it hot at work. Well, we
Speaker 2: are back talking about how you can re engage with work,
Speaker 2: rekindle the flame, make work a little bit more exciting,
Speaker 2: even if you have been there for years or potentially
Speaker 2: even more than a decade, certainly using your professional development
Speaker 2: perks is a big win.
Speaker 3: Sarah, you have I will say, wasted mind.
Speaker 2: HAVE been talking with you a great many times over
Speaker 2: the past two years, and I know you love to
Speaker 2: go to your professional endocrine conferences, and yet somehow you
Speaker 2: have not gone.
Speaker 1: Explain it.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like two years ago there was some
Speaker 3: gymnastics thing, and then a year ago, well a year
Speaker 3: ago I was like took one for the team, like
Speaker 3: everyone wanted to go to the same conference, and I
Speaker 3: was like, you know what, I'm busy.
Speaker 1: Then I don't feel that passionate. I'll go to a
Speaker 1: different one.
Speaker 3: And then when a time came to register for the
Speaker 3: different one, I was like, I still have too much
Speaker 3: going on. It was in the middle of July. I
Speaker 3: went to Philadelphia in July. First we had something else
Speaker 3: going on, I feel like the beginning of August, and
Speaker 3: I was like, it's too many things. And to be fair,
Speaker 3: like my medicals when I when I made that switch,
Speaker 3: I hadn't had all that hard stuff happen and this
Speaker 3: was like still relatively fresh. So I was like, forget it.
Speaker 3: But this year, I'm going going.
Speaker 1: I'm going.
Speaker 3: It's in California, so it's not convenient, but I'm still
Speaker 3: going and it's going to happen this time.
Speaker 1: Because there's not perfect time. I mean, they're really perfect
Speaker 1: time and it's fun.
Speaker 3: And if you're in if you're lucky enough to be
Speaker 3: in a job where you get to do some travel
Speaker 3: that is like fully comped and you're that is like
Speaker 3: a lovely thing to embrace and get to experience, especially
Speaker 3: if it means seeing old friends and so yeah, one
Speaker 3: fun thing that I have learned since hosting a course,
Speaker 3: some people use their professional development money for my my courses,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I love that so much. I still
Speaker 3: don't feel like if we were able to get like
Speaker 3: professional like CME for Bestly Plans Live, we could we
Speaker 3: could expand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes make sure when it was coney.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the conferences I've talked at are like an event
Speaker 2: organization hosts that they've done the paperwork that it can
Speaker 2: be for continuing professional development credit for whatever their credentialing
Speaker 2: bodies are. And of course then you get a much
Speaker 2: better attendance because people are like, well, I got to
Speaker 2: get my credits somehow, and this looks a lot more
Speaker 2: interesting than many other things I could be doing, so
Speaker 2: which is awesome when that happens. But yeah, no, if
Speaker 2: not using your professional development funds is basically like leaving
Speaker 2: a raise on the table, right, This is money that
Speaker 2: is budgeted for you, and so if it is there,
Speaker 2: you should figure out how to do it. And the
Speaker 2: upside is that you often will become more engaged in
Speaker 2: your work. I mean, this is why people budget money
Speaker 2: for it for their employees. Is because they know when
Speaker 2: you go to that conference, you're like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 2: like this, or oh, here's an exciting new thing I
Speaker 2: can try, or it's always so great to see Joe
Speaker 2: and Bob again. And you know, you just become more
Speaker 2: excited about your job for at least some amount of
Speaker 2: time afterwards, which if it gets you to keep.
Speaker 1: Working there for another six months is great then that's
Speaker 1: why they do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Plus you're like more up to date with stuff, so
Speaker 3: you feel better about the quality of your everything. It
Speaker 3: has multiple benefits, So don't be me.
Speaker 1: Don't be Sarah. We should be Sarah in many ways,
Speaker 1: but not that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and if you really got here, I just
Speaker 3: had a little hiatus.
Speaker 2: And if you are working for yourself, running your own
Speaker 2: small business obviously is great if you can figure out
Speaker 2: ways for your employees to do things like this, but
Speaker 2: you can do it for yourself as well. I know
Speaker 2: a lot of people have found it life changing to
Speaker 2: form organizations of other people who are facing similar challenges
Speaker 2: to you. So if you are running a small business,
Speaker 2: maybe recruit five other people who are running small businesses
Speaker 2: and either same lines of work or that have similar
Speaker 2: revenue and so they're facing the same challenges you are,
Speaker 2: and you get together, you know, once or twice a year,
Speaker 2: you become friends and colleagues in addition to you know,
Speaker 2: just balancing thing off each other professionally, and that can
Speaker 2: keep you engaged in your work for a.
Speaker 1: Lot longer as well. Yes, which you do and you enjoy.
Speaker 1: I do and I enjoy now.
Speaker 2: Of course, one of the perks of many salary jobs
Speaker 2: is that you get paid time off. Which one way
Speaker 2: to make sure that you are not burned out and
Speaker 2: that you are still feeling energized for your work is
Speaker 2: to make sure that you take your paid time off.
Speaker 2: So Sarah, you, I mean there were times I know
Speaker 2: in the past when you were making sure that you
Speaker 2: had enough because your little kids might be sick at
Speaker 2: any given point. But now we've been able to lean
Speaker 2: a bit more into the travel and sort of rejuvenative
Speaker 2: days off even if you're not traveling right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, Yeah, And I think it's very important to
Speaker 3: really understand what your PTO policies where you are. I'm
Speaker 3: not even sure everyone I work with would know how
Speaker 3: many hours they get for pay period and like how
Speaker 3: much disability time, how much PTO time and It's something
Speaker 3: I learned to pay attention to because I want to
Speaker 3: maximize those days. And I think one of the most
Speaker 3: heart things if you have someone that's like I am
Speaker 3: so tired, be like, well, what's your PCO balance? And
Speaker 3: it's like, I have many days I could have used
Speaker 3: this year and didn't, and it's like, okay, then why
Speaker 3: don't we figure out make sure that you are using
Speaker 3: those in a way that fits you. And I think
Speaker 3: real time spent figuring out how to best allocate those
Speaker 3: days if you have a limited number of them, or
Speaker 3: even if you have a technically unlimited number of them,
Speaker 3: but really obviously everyone's kind of limited. Really thinking about
Speaker 3: this is when I'm going to travel, maybe this is
Speaker 3: when I'm going to do a day off to do
Speaker 3: a seasonal planning session with myself, and this is when
Speaker 3: I'm going to take a short weekend away with my
Speaker 3: husband or whatever. But really like thinking about how many
Speaker 3: days you have, how do you want to spread them
Speaker 3: throughout the year, how do you want to use them
Speaker 3: to maximize your joy? Because they are a job benefit,
Speaker 3: and I guess I would argue that for most people,
Speaker 3: they should use every single day that they have, even
Speaker 3: if there's like a possible payout if you don't use them.
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, if money is true tight and you
Speaker 3: get paid for days you don't use and you really
Speaker 3: need that money, I get it. But like beyond that,
Speaker 3: probably the time it's going to be more valuable for
Speaker 3: most people listening to this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and finally, you should reflect on what you want
Speaker 2: your next steps to be. Now.
Speaker 1: Obviously, people don't stay in jobs forever.
Speaker 2: Most people are not going to take a job at
Speaker 2: the beginning of their career and then retire from it
Speaker 2: forty years later, so there probably will be a next step.
Speaker 2: But sometimes spending some time thinking about what you think
Speaker 2: that next step would be and what you're interested in
Speaker 2: and looking for can make your current situation feel better
Speaker 2: as well, because you know you're like, oh, well, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm learning this now and that's going to be helpful
Speaker 2: in my next step, or I'm meeting all these people
Speaker 2: and that's going to be helpful in my next step too.
Speaker 1: I mean, Sarah, you've reflected on this as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for me, it's like part of my
Speaker 3: annual planning processes.
Speaker 1: It's built in, like what do we want for my
Speaker 1: life in the future.
Speaker 3: But not everybody does that, So if you don't think
Speaker 3: about when and where you would want to sit down
Speaker 3: and really think about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I should probably do more of that. But you know,
Speaker 2: so far, so good. Keep muddling along.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: By the time this airs, you will have had some
Speaker 1: chance to It's true.
Speaker 2: At best, like plans life, I will have set my
Speaker 2: goals for twenty twenty six and we'll see what I
Speaker 2: want to bite off every ur the next year. Right,
Speaker 2: so we've been talking how to rekindle the flame at work.
Speaker 2: This question is also from somebody thinking about work scause
Speaker 2: my job is really stressful. I often think about fire
Speaker 2: that's financial independence, retire early, but cannot help feeling like
Speaker 2: if I only work a few more years, things will
Speaker 2: be better for our family and the kids. Yet I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm trading away the prime of my life. Help,
Speaker 2: What should I think about doing well?
Speaker 3: In addition to listening to this episode, so you can
Speaker 3: maybe think about things that you do appreciate about your
Speaker 3: job or maybe ways to tweak it in that direction.
Speaker 3: I would definitely make sure that you are not going
Speaker 3: through this thought process with like theoreticals like well, I
Speaker 3: think we could find like there should be no, think
Speaker 3: there should be like I have run and that calculator
Speaker 3: and this and that simulation looking at what happens if
Speaker 3: my partner doesn't work, if I don't work, if we
Speaker 3: both don't work, Like why our life cell look like
Speaker 3: what would be able to afford? Like what would the
Speaker 3: trade offs be? And really be very concrete with that.
Speaker 3: You can do a DIY version of that if you're
Speaker 3: savvy enough. You can use an app or you can
Speaker 3: do it with an advisor. But I think if you're
Speaker 3: making this big of a decision, you just need to
Speaker 3: like really have numbers in place.
Speaker 1: That's number one.
Speaker 3: And then other thoughts are again kind of going through
Speaker 3: the things in this episode, But is there one pain point?
Speaker 3: Like could you find a job that's kind of like
Speaker 3: your job but removes whatever the thing is that makes
Speaker 3: you feel like you're wasting your life away? Like maybe
Speaker 3: there's one big source of stress.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the commute.
Speaker 3: Could you find a remote version or figure out something
Speaker 3: closer to you, et cetera. And then I guess one
Speaker 3: kind of twist on this and you've probably thought of
Speaker 3: this if you're sending this question in, but like could
Speaker 3: you use the skills you've developed, but figure out if
Speaker 3: there's a way that you could do it in a
Speaker 3: more freelance and autonomous fashion, because I think one of
Speaker 3: the things that stresses people out the moment most in
Speaker 3: certain corporate roles, it is just the utter lack of autonomy. Yet,
Speaker 3: if you've been with a role long enough, maybe you
Speaker 3: do have some skills that would be translatable to something
Speaker 3: where you are more in charge. It may come with
Speaker 3: more risks, but if you've done those calculations, you may
Speaker 3: be able to see that you could weather those risks.
Speaker 3: So I think that that is an avenue to certainly
Speaker 3: pursue as an option.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean definitely.
Speaker 2: One thing you should do in addition to figuring out
Speaker 2: what your net worth is and what it's going to
Speaker 2: grow to and what you could reasonably live on and
Speaker 2: whether those trade offs are worth it to you is
Speaker 2: to track your time because it can be empowering to
Speaker 2: realize how much time is available outside of work. If
Speaker 2: you are working forty hours a week, we've done this
Speaker 2: calculation here before, there are one hundred and sixty eight
Speaker 2: hours in a week. If you are sleeping eight hours
Speaker 2: a night, so that's fifty six hours a week. Subtract
Speaker 2: fifty six and forty from one hundred and sixty eight,
Speaker 2: you get seventy two hours for other things. So even
Speaker 2: if you are not thrilled with the forty hours you
Speaker 2: are working, can you make yourself thrilled with the seventy
Speaker 2: two hours.
Speaker 1: You are not working?
Speaker 2: And then you know, like, hey, the good stuff is
Speaker 2: almost twice as much as the job that I'm finding stressful.
Speaker 2: I should really lean into the rest of my life,
Speaker 2: you know, get a hobby, join a pickleball league, go
Speaker 2: volunteer somewhere.
Speaker 1: You might really enjoy that.
Speaker 2: Just recognizing that full time work is not the full
Speaker 2: amount of your time, that word is a misnomer. I
Speaker 2: wish there were another word to describe thirty five to
Speaker 2: forty hours of work a week. There isn't, but it
Speaker 2: isn't the full amount of your time. And the more
Speaker 2: you can keep repeating that to yourself, the more you
Speaker 2: might be able to compartmentalize what's going on. Go ahead
Speaker 2: and look for another job. Right, there are so many
Speaker 2: other options beyond quitting your job and never working again.
Speaker 2: Right looking for another job, people tell themselves a story like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: there's not gonna be anything that pays as well and
Speaker 2: uses my skills in this area.
Speaker 1: Do you know that?
Speaker 2: Like, do you absolutely know that? If so, fine, But
Speaker 2: if you just haven't looked, then you don't know. It
Speaker 2: could be that a company that's far away is willing
Speaker 2: to hire you remotely, right, And then maybe they were
Speaker 2: even paying more because they're located in an expensive area
Speaker 2: and so their salary base is different, So you're gonna
Speaker 2: earn more, have more autonomy, and be doing different work. Like,
Speaker 2: you just don't know until you've really looked at what
Speaker 2: is out there. People have never truly optimized on jobs.
Speaker 2: It's always possible that you can find something that pays better,
Speaker 2: you like more, and is more flexible.
Speaker 3: Right. I love when you bring that up about the optimization, Like,
Speaker 3: what is the chance do you just happened to land
Speaker 3: in the most unicorn perfect, you know, highest paying, highest
Speaker 3: reward job that you could have landed in, and there's
Speaker 3: nothing better? But the chances of that are like seriously
Speaker 3: very unlikely. Yeah, yes, so just remember that your employer
Speaker 3: doesn't want you to think about that, but you have to.
Speaker 2: Oh, you realize jobs all the time. It is totally fine,
Speaker 2: So see what else is out there? And if there's
Speaker 2: something you'd prefer to be doing. There's also the middle
Speaker 2: ground of coming up, as Sarah say, ways to bring
Speaker 2: in an income that don't involve working full time. Like
Speaker 2: you can freelance. You can possibly even do your job
Speaker 2: on an ad hoc basis for your current employer or
Speaker 2: another one in the industry, so that you still have
Speaker 2: some money coming in so you're not just living off
Speaker 2: the interest income on your savings, because again, if you
Speaker 2: retire early enough, it's gonna be a long time that
Speaker 2: you're going to be trying to live off of this.
Speaker 1: And that's fine if you can do it. Great.
Speaker 2: Many people decide, even though after you know that they
Speaker 2: do fire, that they want to do some sort of
Speaker 2: work because work provides structure for life.
Speaker 1: It provides a sense of purpose.
Speaker 2: So even if you don't need the money, you might
Speaker 2: find yourself looking for things that you'd like to do.
Speaker 2: So if you have particular skills in area, why don't
Speaker 2: you just start doing that. You can work twenty hours
Speaker 2: a week doing it on the projects you choose and
Speaker 2: still be building the nest egg allbe at a perhaps
Speaker 2: slightly slower rate versus pulling it down.
Speaker 3: So yeah, all right, Well, love of the week. Do
Speaker 3: we have a work themed one from you, Laura?
Speaker 1: My office, like I love my home office. It's really great.
Speaker 2: It has nice windows, nice wood shelves. I have a
Speaker 2: fireplace in there, which is gonna be great as we
Speaker 2: get into winter. I have my recording closet, which apparently
Speaker 2: has very very expensive wallpaper on the wall.
Speaker 1: Like, who knew.
Speaker 2: I didn't put that wallpaper, and I never would have
Speaker 2: paid for it, but it was here and I didn't
Speaker 2: rip it out. Now I'm glad I didn't because I've
Speaker 2: had people see me in my zoom room as I
Speaker 2: call it, and comment on the wallpaper when they know
Speaker 2: something about it. So that's exciting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's really a great space. So I lucked
Speaker 1: out on that. Love it well. Mine is the concept
Speaker 1: of PTO.
Speaker 3: I mean, one might argue in the US we could
Speaker 3: have even more of that, because, as I know, in
Speaker 3: other countries is customary. But honestly, just the idea that
Speaker 3: you're allocated in a lot of career situations with days
Speaker 3: that are just for you to decide what to do
Speaker 3: with them. You'll still get paid and still have your
Speaker 3: benefits is really nice and we should all maximize it.
Speaker 3: And enjoy it and look for situations where we can
Speaker 3: get enough of it but keep us happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah sounds good.
Speaker 2: Well, this has been best of both worlds. We've been
Speaker 2: talking about rekindling the flame at work. We will be
Speaker 2: back next week with more on making work and life
Speaker 2: fit together.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Speaker 4: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
Speaker 4: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
Speaker 4: next time for more on making work and life work together.