1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: All of our customer service representatives. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 2: They're currently having others. 3 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 3: This is what it's always like, well. 4 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 4: For the next available representatives. 5 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 5: Before fully committing to this whole egg freezing thing, I 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 5: figured I should probably figure out what it was going 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 5: to cost me. Yeah, it's Kristin Brown, and so I 8 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 5: called up a fertility benefit provider. Yeah, I am interested 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 5: in egg freezing, and it's my understanding that I can use. 10 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 5: I never actually did figure out how much it would 11 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 5: cost me, but I did learn something very interesting. While 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 5: health insurance in the US generally doesn't cover IVF or 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 5: egg freezing, even when it does, there are some big exceptions, 14 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 5: exceptions that can make it way more expensive. Oh really 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 5: if I did embryos. Oh wow, So it would actually 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 5: potentially be cheaper. If I froze embryos with my partner step, 17 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 5: the cost of freezing and storing them would be covered. 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 5: If I froze eggs on my own, it wouldn't be. 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 5: I found this shocking. Even with great benefits, my relationship 20 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 5: status was a potential obstacle to affordable fertility care. It 21 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 5: was a stark contrast to the image I was seeing online. 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: We believe that going to the doctor should feel like 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: a visit with a trusted friend. If knowledge is powered, 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: then a fertility information shouldn't still be a mystery. 25 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 5: Our mission is to enable fertility care for all people, 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 5: regardless of age, sexual orientation, gender identity, race, marital status, 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 5: or geography. The fertility themed YouTube videos and Instagram content 28 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 5: making its way into my feed as a thirty something 29 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 5: woman made it seem like this whole process would be 30 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 5: empowering or something. In reality, this was no picnic. Just 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 5: to break it down, freezing eggs would require me to 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 5: self inject high doses of hormones multiple times a day 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 5: to ramp up my egg production. Then a doctor would 34 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 5: have to surgically remove those eggs in what's known as 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 5: a retrieval to make embryos, those eggs would have to 36 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 5: be furtile and a lab And if I went down 37 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 5: the road of doing IVF, that would involve weeks of 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 5: more drugs thawing those embryos, and a doctor implanting them 39 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 5: in my uterus, which still might not work. And I 40 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 5: noticed that none of what I was seeing really touched 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 5: on how expensive all of this is. No one seemed 42 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 5: to want to tell me how much it was going 43 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 5: to cost. I started to wonder who could afford this? 44 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 5: On what lengths do people go to when they can't. 45 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 5: I'm Kristen B. Brown, and this is misconception. Money isn't 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 5: the only problem. Sometimes even getting an infertility diagnosis as 47 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 5: a major obstacle. That was the case for Regina Townsend. 48 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: My periods were raging, my hormones were out of whack. 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 3: I had mistres cycles that lasted upwards from sixty to 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 3: one hundred days. 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 5: She's telling me about a really frustrating time in her 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 5: early twenties when she was trying and failing to get pregnant. 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: It was ridiculous, and I was going back and forth 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: to the emergency room and trying to figure out what 55 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 3: was going on, and I just kept getting told that 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 3: you're thyroid and lose weight. 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 5: It all started because she was on an online message board. 58 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 5: This is pre Facebook. It was called Chocolate Brides, but 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 5: a lot of people Regina included hung around on the 60 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 5: site even after they got married. 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: They would have like home buying journals and then pregnancy journals, 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: and then it would become a point where some people 63 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: were like mentioning that they were having trouble getting pregnant 64 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know 65 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: black people dealt with that, or they'd mentioned going to 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: a fertility center, and I was like, oh, they must 67 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: have money. That's a thing that we don't do. 68 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 5: Slowly, she started to connect the dots. 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: Maybe those stories that I was hearing from, those are 70 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: the ladies on chocolate brides, aren't just anomalies. Maybe those 71 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: are like real things that are happening to everybody. And 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: then I got mad because then I was like, well, 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: nobody told me this, and nobody said this was a thing, 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: and stereotypically, from what I see, it is presented to 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: me as though Black women are hyper fertile and hyper 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: sexualized and you need to just monitor your body and 77 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: make sure you don't get pregnant. And I was like, 78 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: but nobody told the whole story. 79 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 5: In fact, a lot of studies have shown that black 80 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 5: women have higher infertility rates than white women, much higher, 81 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 5: but they're less likely to get help. Regina started a 82 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 5: blog about her experience, the Broken Brown Egg. 83 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: I just started writing things like, you know that aunt 84 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: that never had kids, maybe she couldn't. And I got 85 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 3: so many private messages from people that were like, oh 86 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 3: my god, thank you for saying that, because I have 87 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: been dealing with this for years. 88 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 5: Figuring out the cause of her fertility troubles, though, was 89 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 5: not straightforward. A doctor who read her blog suggested that 90 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 5: based on her symptoms, she might have polycystic ovary syndrome 91 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 5: or PCOS, which can affect fertility. The doctor who was 92 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 5: treating her dismissed the idea outright. Then there was the 93 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 5: issue of paying for all the treatment. 94 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 3: It took ten years to get to our son because 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: there was a lot of back and forth. There were 96 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: times where I had insurance and my husband did it. 97 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 3: There were times where I didn't have insurance. There were 98 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: times where we were trying to figure out how to 99 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: get the thyroid under control. And then also it's a 100 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: lot of waiting game. It's a lot of Okay, we're 101 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: gonna take this medication and then we'll see what happens 102 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 3: in the next three months. We'll see what happens in 103 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: the next six months, We'll see what. So your time 104 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: is just moving along. 105 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 5: After six or seven years of trying treatments that never worked, 106 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 5: Regina found out that her fallopium tubes were blocked. The 107 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 5: only way she was ever going to get pregnant would 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 5: be IVF. She also found a good doctor who accepted 109 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 5: her insurance. 110 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 3: So many years of hurry up and wait, and then 111 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 3: all of a sudden things just kind of took off, 112 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: and so we did IVF in twenty fifteen, and our 113 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: son was born in twenty sixteen. 114 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 5: Regina got pregnant just one round of IVF. It's crazy 115 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 5: to think about everything that she went through. For years. 116 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 5: She was spending money and time and all these treatments 117 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 5: that were never going to work, rearranging her life to 118 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 5: shuttle back and forth to the doctor all the time, 119 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 5: putting off other major life decisions. It was far too 120 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 5: long of a journey, and one that's not at all 121 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 5: uncommon for women of color, whose medical problems are often overlooked. Really, though, 122 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 5: Regina's story highlights a lot of the different sorts of 123 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 5: problems we have with fertility care here in the US. 124 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 5: Given how often she was dismissed, it's kind of amazing 125 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 5: she's stuck with it at all. Our fertility industry is 126 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 5: mostly set up to serve people who are white, married, wealthy, 127 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 5: and heterosexual. Everyone else gets left out in one way 128 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 5: or another. In some cases, fertility policies exclude LGBTQ people 129 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 5: by saying the benefits only apply to people who are infertile. 130 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 5: There have been several discrimination lawsuits filed over this, one 131 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 5: against ETNA settled in with the insurer agreeing to make 132 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 5: artificial insemination a standard benefit and make it easier for 133 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 5: LGBTQ people to do IVF. When asked about the suit, 134 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 5: ATNA said it's committed to providing quality care to all individuals. 135 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 5: Only four states in DC have mandates requiring some fertility 136 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 5: insurance policies to include LGBTQ and single people. That's according 137 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 5: to the civil rights organization GLAD. And yet in most places, 138 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 5: whether you need to do IVF because your tubes are 139 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 5: blocked or you're in a same sex couple, there is 140 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 5: no coverage for IVF. Private health plans often deem fertility 141 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 5: treatments not quote medically necessary. 142 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 3: So many people tell me like that being in this 143 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: journey change is how they navigate, you know, when they're 144 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: applying for jobs and things like that. That I know 145 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: so many people that like leave one job, that go 146 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: work at Starbucks because Starbucks offers the coverage. 147 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 5: It's hard to know exactly how many people don't have 148 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 5: coverage because it varies so much depending on where you 149 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 5: live in work, but it's a lot of people. Only 150 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 5: about half of large employers offered fertility coverage in twenty 151 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 5: twenty two, and without coverage, many people find themselves facing 152 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 5: an impossible choice. Come up with tens of thousands of 153 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 5: dollars or give up on the family of their dreams. 154 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. 155 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 5: The economics of IVA for a little like Russian roulette, 156 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 5: a high stakes game of chance. How much you're going 157 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 5: to have to spend is pretty much impossible to pin down. 158 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 5: There's the cost of office visits and hormone injections and 159 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 5: drugs and egg retrievals. They're add on tests and procedures 160 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 5: doctors often suggest. And then once you do it all once, 161 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 5: you very well might have to do it again and again. 162 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: And so we had to keep spending more and more money. 163 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: Things got more and more expensive. 164 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 5: I called it like the cults of Never Give Up. 165 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: It was this very urgent laden kind of sales pitch. 166 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 4: That's what it felt like to me. They kind of 167 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 4: want to keep you coming back. 168 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 5: Tens of thousands of dollars. 169 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: There's the coll pays, then there's the medications that you're 170 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: taking up to that. Then there's the gas. 171 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 4: We're a couple of years in fifteen thousand in five 172 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 4: value wise, in. 173 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: We're talking about ten to fifteen thousand dollars here. 174 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 3: People are making major economical decisions based on what's covered 175 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: so that they can build a family. 176 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 5: Even with good fertility coverage. I was wondering if I 177 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 5: could afford to freeze. There were some things that weren't covered, 178 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 5: and no one could give me a real estimate for 179 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 5: what they might cost. Drugs alone could wind up costing 180 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 5: a few thousand dollars. Regina told me she raised money 181 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 5: for uncovered costs by hosting a paintent sip and selling 182 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 5: T shirts and applying for grants. One industry expert had 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 5: told me I should expect to pay for about a 184 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 5: third of the total cost out of pocket, whatever that 185 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 5: mystery number might be. Would that be two thousand dollars 186 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 5: five thousand more? All I could do was guests. It 187 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 5: was like applying to college without knowing the price of tuition. 188 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 5: My own financial woes left me wondering how people without 189 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 5: fertility benefits paid for all this, which, as I mentioned earlier, 190 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 5: is the majority of people Katie, while wording, told me 191 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 5: that she and her husband did all sorts of things 192 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 5: to come up with the money for IVF. 193 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: So our first thought was we'd go to the bank, 194 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: but the loan percentage was a little more than what 195 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: we were hoping for. 196 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 5: When embryos got stuck in her fallopian tubes, she wound 197 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 5: up losing both of them. Doing IVF wound up replacing 198 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 5: other goals. They put off buying a house, they cut 199 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 5: back on extras. Even then, they didn't have enough, so 200 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 5: when the loan didn't work out, they borrowed money from 201 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 5: their parents. Finally they had enough for one round. They 202 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 5: live in Iowa and had to drive seven hours to 203 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 5: their clinic. 204 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: The first round, it was a little over twenty thousand dollars. 205 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: Since we went so far, we had to pay for 206 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: like hotel, stay what not for about two weeks for 207 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: the egg retrieval, so that was about twenty thousand dollars. 208 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: And with the first transfer, we still had to pay 209 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: for our medications and that was about another five grand, 210 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: which was so excessive. I don't think I've ever had 211 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: to call my bank so many times to approve certain purchases. 212 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 5: For Katie, though one embryo transfer didn't turn out to 213 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 5: be enough. An embryo implanted in the tiny stump of 214 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 5: a fallopian tube that she still had left it wasn't 215 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 5: a viable pregnancy. 216 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: So now we're just kind of on the road of 217 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: doing another transfer after our last failed transfer. But now 218 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: that we've come this far and it's already cost us 219 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,479 Speaker 1: this much, we've kind of reached out to other platforms. 220 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 5: I guess Katie and her husband decided to try and 221 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 5: raise money via the crowdfunding platform go fundme because fertility 222 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 5: treatment is so expensive. Go fundme has a special IVF 223 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 5: fundraising page that people like Katie and her husband can 224 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 5: use to seek help from loved ones and even strangers, 225 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 5: but after several months, they had only raised just over 226 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 5: two thousand dollars of the more than twenty thousand they 227 00:11:59,280 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 5: would need. 228 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: I'm not very good with technology, but my nieces are 229 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: trying to help me go on TikTok and put something 230 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: on there, so that'll be our next thing to try 231 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: to get people to hopefully, you know, reach out and 232 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: help us. My niece has thought where if twenty thousand 233 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: people could give you a dollar, you'd be golden. So 234 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: that's our hope. 235 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 5: I found a lot of people like Katie on GoFundMe. 236 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 5: It does hundreds of couples trying to raise money right 237 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 5: now to have a baby. The company told me that 238 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 5: nearly ten thousand fertility fundraisers have launched on the site 239 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 5: since twenty ten, raising more than six point eight million dollars. 240 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 5: People have to get strategic to figure out how to 241 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 5: pay for IVF, but I only met one couple who 242 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 5: actually managed to raise most of the money they needed 243 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 5: by fundraising. Shae and Tanner write to start a family. 244 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 5: They were forced to do IVF because Tanner has terminal cancer. 245 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 5: I talked to Shane Tanner over zoom. 246 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 6: So Tanner is my husband here. He was diagnosed with 247 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 6: stage four colon cancer at age twenty five. Tanner really 248 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 6: wants to be a dad, and I wanted to experience 249 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 6: that with him. 250 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 5: I'm talking to both of them, but Shae does most 251 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 5: of the talking. You can tell Tanner is tired. He's 252 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 5: reclining against a wall. Tanner for a sperm after he 253 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 5: was diagnosed. Since treatments like chemo can affect your fertility, 254 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 5: they only had one sample of tanner sperm, so doctors 255 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 5: recommended IVF, but their insurance didn't cover anything. Shay was 256 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 5: already working multiple jobs while also getting a degree in 257 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 5: marriage and family therapy in her spare time. She came 258 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 5: up with a creative idea for how to raise the money. 259 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 6: So we did an IVF auction. We contacted businesses that 260 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 6: were based in Utah and we just asked if they 261 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 6: are basically like donating either items or services to her auction. 262 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 6: So we had a puppy we had like a trip 263 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 6: to Alaska. Someone donated like a cabin for a week 264 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 6: in Alaska, and then we held the auction on my 265 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 6: personal Instagram. That took like seven hours to list them 266 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 6: all and then for a week the auction was open 267 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 6: and people were just bidding on the items throughout the week. 268 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 5: They raised most of the money they needed that way, 269 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 5: twenty two thousand dollars. They also set up a gofundmeme 270 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 5: after some people reached out wanting to donate instead of 271 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 5: making a purchase. Through that, they raised another twelve thousand. 272 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 6: So it wasn't relieve and I was just shocked at 273 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 6: all of the generosity of people. 274 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 5: Shay was able to use social media to raise a 275 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 5: ton of money and put IVF within reach for her 276 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 5: and Tanner, but even that might not wind up being 277 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 5: enough money if, like Katie, they end up needing multiple 278 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 5: rounds of IVF. Should building a family really be dictated 279 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 5: by how much money you have? We'll be right back. 280 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 5: As I got deeper into the process freezing, I was 281 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 5: starting to realize how insane this whole system seemed. It 282 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 5: wasn't just the cost and the odds of it not working. 283 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 5: For example, one of the reasons it's not only expensive 284 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 5: to get fertility treatment but also hard to get an appointment. 285 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 5: So there just aren't enough fertility doctors. And that's because 286 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 5: the number of federally funded fellowships and reproductive endochronology is 287 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 5: capped each year. Several people told me that there are 288 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 5: not enough doctors and there aren't enough being trained to 289 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 5: catch up with the growing demand. I started wondering if 290 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 5: anyone was approaching things differently, if there was another way 291 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 5: to do fertility care that might make it more accessible 292 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 5: to people. 293 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 6: Please remain seated with your seatbelt securely. 294 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 5: Fascinating, which brought me to Oklahoma City and to a 295 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 5: fertility startup called Mate. 296 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 6: Are you far away from Home? 297 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? 298 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 5: But you know so One of the things I've been 299 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 5: doing is exploring different options. I'm doing egg freezing, and 300 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 5: it's so much less expensive here than when I got 301 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 5: quoted in New York. It's literally half the price. 302 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 7: A lot of people do that. 303 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 5: We have people from Washington, Kansas who come here. 304 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 4: It comes here really because we're cheaper. 305 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 5: Wow. Maye is focused on three related problems, the cost 306 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 5: of IVF, the shortage of IVF doctors, and access to 307 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 5: IVF outside of wealthy, big cities, and its solution to 308 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 5: those problems. It's sort of radical. It's ruffled a few feathers. 309 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 5: Instead of hiring fertility doctors, partners with obgyns and trains 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 5: them how to do fertility care. I was intrigued. At 311 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 5: Maine's Oklahoma location, a freezing cycle was fifty four hundred 312 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 5: dollars inclusive of everything. That's a lot cheaper than the 313 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 5: ten thousand I was quoted in New York. My appointment 314 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 5: started with a nurse taking my vitals. 315 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: I'm going to have you uncrusha way. 316 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah five. 317 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 5: Then I saw doctor, I'm just gonna go over your 318 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 5: history first and then we'll start from there. Okay, okay, 319 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 5: that sounds good, all right? He told me a little 320 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 5: bit about what I might expect at my age age. 321 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to show you a little graph here. 322 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: Thirty seven years of age, your chances of having a 323 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 4: abnormal embryo is about forty percent. 324 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 5: That number drived with other datea I had seen. I 325 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 5: definitely didn't feel like I was getting the candy coated 326 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 5: version of things. When I was there, the Oklahoma office 327 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 5: was in the midst of a major expansion. Oklahoma City 328 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 5: has just one other fertility clinic, so there's a lot 329 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 5: of potential demand on top of the patient's mates getting 330 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 5: from all over the country. For the big picture, I 331 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 5: caught up with Mate CEO Tracy Keene. She told me 332 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 5: that the company is trying to figure out how to 333 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 5: meet demand that the industry just can't currently serve. 334 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 4: The industry was built as a niche for high net 335 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: worth individuals. This industry wasn't built to accommodate the fact 336 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: that roughly thirty percent of the population probably needs some 337 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 4: form of intervention at this juncture. 338 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 5: This system is backed up. I experienced this firsthand. One 339 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 5: budget fertility chain I looked into had a two month 340 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 5: wait for just an initial phone consultation. Actually signed up 341 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 5: for a consultation and paid a deposit and they never 342 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 5: called me Mate. 343 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 4: It's focusing on the supply side of the issues. When 344 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 4: I say supply side, I mean fundamentally, there aren't enough 345 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 4: providers and there aren't enough clinics to meet the demand. 346 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 4: There were two point seven million cycles that didn't occur 347 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 4: that needed to in twenty twenty one. There are more 348 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 4: reproductive andnochronologists retiring than are graduating from the Fellowship on 349 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 4: an annual basis. And so the model was really built 350 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 4: in this way to say, Okay, how do we enable 351 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: everyone to practice at the top of their license. 352 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 5: Tracy told me that by hiring obgins to do fertility care, 353 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 5: they were able to not only drop prices, but open 354 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 5: in cities where there are fewer options, like Oklahoma City 355 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 5: and Waco, Texas. 356 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: Mate's model. 357 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 4: We're not doing high volume centers. We're partnering with individual 358 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 4: practices to build a practice that will do, you know, 359 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 4: five hundred cycles a year. So when people want to 360 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 4: talk about, you know, what's your competition, I'm like, the 361 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 4: sky is the limit here. We could build thousands of 362 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: these and there would still be more people who need 363 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 4: access to care. 364 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 5: I talked to several patients who said they were only 365 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 5: able to afford treatment they needed at ME. One patient 366 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 5: even drove to Oklahoma City from Texas to do IVF 367 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 5: meet has attracted a fair amount of criticism, though. When 368 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 5: I asked the professional group that oversees fertility doctors about METE, 369 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 5: they told me they were concerned that patients wouldn't be 370 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 5: getting the level of care and expertise they needed from 371 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 5: an obgun that had limited fertility training. 372 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 3: It's like a lot of kinds of medicine. 373 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 4: There's a lot of stuff your internists can do for you, 374 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 4: there's a lot of stuff they can't, or that a 375 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 4: specialist would do better. 376 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 5: So I don't think we have. 377 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 3: Dat yet that says, okay, which steps are really appropriate 378 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 3: for somebody who's in OBJN. 379 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 5: That's Sean Tipton, the head of advocacy and policy for 380 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 5: that fertility doctor's group. One day he said roles like 381 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 5: nurse practitioners might be able to help satisfy that demand. 382 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 5: Typically those jobs still work under the supervision of an 383 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 5: expert doctor. 384 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 4: I don't think we know yet what the right answers 385 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 4: are going to be. 386 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 5: Tracy finds this argument a bit old fashioned, though. 387 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 4: We have babies being born, we have good clinical pregnancy rates. 388 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 4: As we expand to new markets geographically throughout the United States, 389 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 4: I think we're going to get a much different picture 390 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 4: of what infertility really looks like in this country. 391 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 5: For example, Tracy said, the average age of an IVF 392 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 5: patient at MAATE is a lot lower than the national average, 393 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 5: which is thirty six point three. 394 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 4: Our average patient age in Oklahoma City is thirty and 395 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 4: a half. That's very different. There's a lot that we 396 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 4: don't know. 397 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 5: It's actually hard to say whether infertility is really on 398 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 5: the rise or if there's just some combination of more 399 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 5: awareness of infertility and people starting families later in life. 400 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 5: What's for certain is that the number of people seeking 401 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 5: out treatments for infertility has risen twenty twenty one. According 402 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 5: to the CDC, nearly two hundred and forty thousand patients 403 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 5: underwent freezing or IVF cycles. More than ninety thousand idea 404 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 5: of babies were born. The government's latest data shows the 405 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 5: number of fertility procedures has risen pretty much every year, 406 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 5: save for a dip during the pandemic. May isn't the 407 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 5: only company I found coming up with truly novel approaches 408 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 5: to solving the problem of access to fertility treatment. Another 409 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 5: one was cofertility, which allows women to freeze their eggs 410 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 5: for free if they donate half of them to another family. 411 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 5: It's not clear whether co or mate or anyone has 412 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 5: come up with the right solution yet. What is clear, though, 413 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 5: is that many people are struggling to figure out how 414 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 5: to pay for a family. One of the wildest things 415 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 5: I learned reporting this podcast is how often we just 416 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 5: have no idea why someone can't get pregnant. There are 417 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 5: just so many ways in which the female reproductive system 418 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 5: is still a black box. In my reporting, I came 419 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 5: across so many people who spent tens of thousands of 420 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 5: dollars and never found out what was wrong. I kept 421 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 5: thinking about this one woman, yes in upstate New York. 422 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 5: She did thirteen rounds of IBF and never had a 423 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 5: sustainable pregnancy. Doctors just kept tweaking her IVF protocol every time. 424 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 5: Jess convinced herself that this would be the time it worked, 425 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 5: that the new formula was the winning formula. Something like 426 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 5: thirty percent at the time. The cause of infertility remains unidentified, 427 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 5: so often we're paying for treatment with really no idea 428 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 5: of whether it will work. She spent over one hundred 429 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 5: thousand dollars. Eventually, she told me her body was just 430 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 5: so broken that she and her husband decided to reimagine 431 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 5: life as a childless couple and they were happy. A 432 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 5: few years later, she had her uterus removed, and doctors 433 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 5: told her that it was unlikely she would have ever 434 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 5: been able to have children anyway. So many people described 435 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 5: to me feel isolated and in the dark. That's definitely 436 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 5: how I was feeling after I found out it would 437 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 5: be more expensive to freeze eggs than embryos. Stuw happened 438 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 5: to be visiting at the time, so I told him 439 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 5: about it. At that point, I hadn't shared many details 440 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 5: with him because when I started thinking about all this, 441 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 5: I thought I'd be freezing eggs on my own, and 442 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 5: I honestly didn't know when in a relationship it's appropriate 443 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 5: to discuss freezing embryos together. Now upside down industry economics 444 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 5: were forcing Stu and I to make major relationship decisions. Okay, 445 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 5: that was very interesting. Basically, we do need to have 446 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 5: a conversation on eggs versus embryos because it might be 447 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 5: cheaper to freeze embryos because this is so the first 448 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 5: most frustrating thing was that they couldn't tell me how 449 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 5: much it costs. Still, like that's what that call was 450 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 5: supposed to be about. And she was like, really, only 451 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 5: the doctor can tell you. And then the doctor can't 452 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 5: tell you how much of the medications cost, which the 453 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 5: medications are a huge cost, like out of pocket, there's 454 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 5: six thousand dollars. So I don't know, what do you. 455 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 4: Think about that? 456 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 7: I mean, it's kind of a lot to kind of 457 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 7: have to make a decision on, isn't it. 458 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 3: It's all. 459 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 7: All slightly terrifying. Yeah, especially given that you know we're 460 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 7: we're not even in the same place. 461 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 5: Maybe maybe you would be by that, I would hope. 462 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 5: So I don't know, what do you think, Like, do 463 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 5: you want to have children together? 464 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 7: Can? Yeah? It's I mean, I like, at some point 465 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 7: down the line, but I realized that, like time isn't 466 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 7: on our side with that. 467 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 5: But it is on our side if we do this. 468 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 7: Yeah, eat, it buys, it buys like more, maybe it 469 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 7: maybe buys a windows. 470 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 5: It buys better odds, you know, but again, no guarantees. Yeah, 471 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 5: this was definitely one of the most awkward moments in 472 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 5: our relationship. I still can't believe he let me tape it. 473 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 7: So this is just like a lot of it's a 474 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 7: lot to take in. 475 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 5: I mean, I'm like, how do we even decide? I 476 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 5: turned off the recorder for Stu to tell me how 477 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 5: he was really feeling. To my relief, he was in. 478 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 5: So there, I was diving headfirst into something I wasn't 479 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: even sure I was sold on. Now I needed to 480 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 5: figure out where we were going to freeze these embryos, 481 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 5: and that decision, well, it turned out to be almost 482 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 5: as scary as figuring out whether to freeze in the 483 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 5: first place. 484 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: The issue of fertility misconduct, injuries, mishaps at fertility clinics 485 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: and you know, almost always in the labs of fertility clinics, 486 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: is a much larger issue than any of us knows, 487 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: including myself. 488 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 7: You have all these sacuity feelings, and so it's a 489 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 7: kind of psychological manoeuvery. 490 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 5: That's next time on Misconception. This series was written and 491 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 5: reported by me Christen V. Brown. It was produced by 492 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 5: Jilda Decarly and Stacy Wong, and edited by Cynthia Koons. 493 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 5: Additional research was done by Tana's mcjohnny. It was engineered 494 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 5: by Blake Maples. Our theme music was composed and performed 495 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 5: by Hannes Brown. Special thanks to Shelly Banjo, Randy Shapiro, 496 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 5: Anna Maazarakis, Jeff Grocott, Lauras Alenko, and Creighton Harrison. Sage 497 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 5: Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening. If 498 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 5: you want to binge the whole series early, go to 499 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 5: Bloomberg dot com and hit subscribe. Then connect your Bloomberg 500 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 5: dot Com subscription to Apple Podcasts, or listen as we 501 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 5: release a new episode each week. See you next time.