Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode. My guest today is
Speaker 1: Dr Jennifer Panning. Now, before I tell you all about
Speaker 1: Dr Panning, I guess I'll give you a little bit
Speaker 1: of heads up about this episode. We talk about politics,
Speaker 1: and in specific, we talk about Donald Trump. Now, I
Speaker 1: want everyone who listens to this podcast to feel included.
Speaker 1: This is certainly not a political podcast, but there is
Speaker 1: an element to politics and how we consume media, about
Speaker 1: politics being a cause for some of our anxiety, and
Speaker 1: there was a phenomenon where a lot of people who
Speaker 1: wouldn't label themselves as political started paying attention to politics
Speaker 1: after Trump got elected, and they also found themselves experiencing anxiety.
Speaker 1: So there is a connection and it's a conversation to
Speaker 1: be had. However, if you are a Donald Trump supporter
Speaker 1: and you don't want to sit around for the Trump bashing,
Speaker 1: which truly, in my humble opinion, I don't think it is,
Speaker 1: but I know we're really divided on this as a nation.
Speaker 1: I still think you can get a lot out of
Speaker 1: this episode by just thinking about again your relationship to
Speaker 1: the media you consume, what do we do when politics
Speaker 1: has caused us some anxiety. So that's just my little caveat,
Speaker 1: because this episode is different than a lot of the
Speaker 1: other ones because we do talk about the real world
Speaker 1: and not that anything else I've talked about isn't the
Speaker 1: real world, but you know what I'm saying. We also
Speaker 1: do discuss the pandemic of I know it's still going on,
Speaker 1: but the initial lockdown of and how it changed all
Speaker 1: of our lives and how that caused and contributed to anxiety.
Speaker 1: And we talk about Dr Panning's main career right now,
Speaker 1: which is working with students, and so we do segue
Speaker 1: into a conversation about what teenagers and young people are
Speaker 1: facing right now that is unique to their generation, and
Speaker 1: some of the things about being young that is not
Speaker 1: unique to any generation, and how you can support the
Speaker 1: young people in your life. So. Dr Jennifer Panning is
Speaker 1: the founder and president of the Mindful Psychology Associates PC.
Speaker 1: She's been an Illinois licensed clinical psychologist for sixteen years.
Speaker 1: She received her doctors Psychology degree in clinical psychology from
Speaker 1: Chicago School of Professional Psychology in two thousand three. She
Speaker 1: completed trainings at Northwestern University Counseling and Psychological Services Center
Speaker 1: and Northern Illinois University Counseling and Student Development Center, developing
Speaker 1: her expertise in college student mental health. She has her
Speaker 1: private practice in Evanston, Illinois, which she has had since
Speaker 1: two thousand four. However, in she authored a chapter for
Speaker 1: the New York Times bestselling book The Dangerous Case of
Speaker 1: Donald Trump twenty seven Mental Health Experts Assess a President.
Speaker 1: Her contribution was entitled Trump Anxiety Disorder, and from coining
Speaker 1: that term, she was that led her to being interviewed
Speaker 1: a lot, writing and speaking about the anxiety and fear
Speaker 1: amidst the existing socio political climate. Dr Panning has since
Speaker 1: been featured in New York Magazine, The Washington Post, Esquire,
Speaker 1: CBS News, and many more. So again, I talked to
Speaker 1: Dr Panning today about about all of this. How you know.
Speaker 1: I have a theory that people who had anxiety before
Speaker 1: Trump became president maybe didn't talk about it, maybe they
Speaker 1: weren't even aware that they had it. But everyone who
Speaker 1: was of the same political stripes bonding over the fact
Speaker 1: that they didn't want this man to be president, it
Speaker 1: felt more comfortable for them to say I have anxiety
Speaker 1: about the president. Oh me too, whereas before they wouldn't say, well,
Speaker 1: I have anxiety about how I feel I'm performing at
Speaker 1: work or if I'm a good parent to my kids.
Speaker 1: But it gave us a common language. Now that's my theory.
Speaker 1: Doctor panting will enlighten me more on what she thinks
Speaker 1: about that, because I've read her credentials out loud to you,
Speaker 1: and I don't have any of those credentials. I'm just,
Speaker 1: as I say, a dumb comedian. We talk about how
Speaker 1: the pandemic caused us anxiety, and how a lot of
Speaker 1: people are continuing to languish despite things being semi back
Speaker 1: to normal or at least not in total lockdown here
Speaker 1: in America, and what will post COVID life look like.
Speaker 1: I do have to give you a heads up. We
Speaker 1: did record this interview before the Delta variant was rampant
Speaker 1: in America, So if we ever sound hopeful or maybe
Speaker 1: even naive, like do they not know about the Delta variant,
Speaker 1: we did not yet at the time of this recording.
Speaker 1: And again we talked about her work with college students
Speaker 1: and what it's like to be young and have anxiety today,
Speaker 1: to not be able to draw on too much life
Speaker 1: experience and say, oh, I've been in this situation before.
Speaker 1: I'll be okay. Young people are at the beginning of
Speaker 1: their life journey and they need adults to help give
Speaker 1: them proper tools and to validate how they feel as well.
Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy my talk with Dr Panning
Speaker 1: and we'll catch you on the flip side of the
Speaker 1: interview with some takeaways that we got from Dr Panning.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here, Dr Panning. I
Speaker 1: know we have the first same first name, Jennifer. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well I might, but I like to be respected. You
Speaker 1: can call me Dr Kirkman. So I want to have
Speaker 1: you on the show because you're you're really an expert
Speaker 1: in two areas. I know that your real uh. I
Speaker 1: was gonna see your real life as though you have
Speaker 1: an alternate life. Your day to day practice. You are
Speaker 1: working with college students. Yes, I own a I own
Speaker 1: a group practice in Evanston, Illinois, which is one suburb
Speaker 1: north of Chicago. The practice is called Mindful of Psychology
Speaker 1: Associates and so um, I'm uh I had it. And
Speaker 1: then we have a other therapist and we're hiring more therapists.
Speaker 1: So I started in private practice in two thousand four
Speaker 1: in Evanston after doing my post doctoral training at Norcosterian
Speaker 1: University Counseling Center. So I've been working with college students
Speaker 1: for almost twenty years now. M HM and you also
Speaker 1: were part of a book that came out a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago about President Trump and I. The name
Speaker 1: of that book was Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. Mental
Speaker 1: Health Experts assass the President. You coined the term Trump
Speaker 1: anxiety disorder? Is that that's true right now? I had
Speaker 1: read an article at the beginning of Trump's presidency, and
Speaker 1: I have people in my life who I know that
Speaker 1: they're anxious. I can see it. Um, there's no way
Speaker 1: that I have anxiety and they don't, but there is
Speaker 1: some denial. But when Trump became president, it was almost
Speaker 1: actually a very freeing thing for them to start saying,
Speaker 1: I'm anxious because Trump is dot dot dot right, give
Speaker 1: them permission to talk about it openly. So when when
Speaker 1: we talk about the many ways that Trump being president
Speaker 1: and the media and social media around Trump gave people anxiety,
Speaker 1: do you think though, that some people had anxiety in general,
Speaker 1: perhaps even generalized anxiety disorder already, and this just gave
Speaker 1: them a story to tell. Um, I don't think I
Speaker 1: gave a story to tell, but I do think people
Speaker 1: who had pre existing anxiety disorders or tendency towards anxiety,
Speaker 1: we're certainly more impacted by Trump than than other people
Speaker 1: because you think about anxiety disorder, like the uncertainty and
Speaker 1: the unpredictability is a big component of anxiety, right, People
Speaker 1: who like to be in control, you know, because they think,
Speaker 1: if if I control my world, I will have you know,
Speaker 1: my ability to feel calm and feel like I don't
Speaker 1: know what's coming next. And Trump just blew all of
Speaker 1: that up, right. I mean, that is the biggest I
Speaker 1: think take away from his presidency was just the chaos
Speaker 1: and the uncertainty and the you know, day to day
Speaker 1: checking the news, what is he saying, what is he tweeting?
Speaker 1: What outlandish thing is happening next? So I think that
Speaker 1: people just really you know, who were anxious before picked
Speaker 1: up on that and it was really um hard and
Speaker 1: traumatic for them to make sense of that. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we see now like Biden is like a normal,
Speaker 1: boring president, right, I mean, a typical president in that
Speaker 1: we're not worrying, you know, what he's he's doing. On
Speaker 1: a daily basis with all these sort of outlandish, chaotic
Speaker 1: tweets and things like that, we kind of know he's
Speaker 1: doing president central things, as did Obama, as did Bush,
Speaker 1: I mean, all the you know, typical presidents beforehand. So
Speaker 1: Trump was just a completely different um president than we've
Speaker 1: ever had, and for for many of us, we struggled
Speaker 1: and suffered with how like, how do we reconcile that
Speaker 1: and how do we stay rounded with all this chaos
Speaker 1: and uncertainty happening. Well, it's interesting that you say, you know,
Speaker 1: we all say this, Biden's boring, thank god, But I
Speaker 1: think it's funny because you know, um, as a doctor,
Speaker 1: that boring is really not the opposite of chaos, right,
Speaker 1: you know, it's more like content would be the opposite
Speaker 1: of chaos. I mean, obviously, without getting too deep into
Speaker 1: politics about it all, but if if we want to
Speaker 1: look at it very basically, the man who was on
Speaker 1: social media all day and who did have the you know,
Speaker 1: key to the nuclear football, he's he's not there. So technically,
Speaker 1: on one level, a lot has dissipated just because of that. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously we have a whole other world with conspiracy theorists
Speaker 1: going on and we still always have to fight for
Speaker 1: a democracy no matter what. But the big head has
Speaker 1: been cut off the hydros. So does that just mean
Speaker 1: the anxiety goes away for people that just developed anxiety
Speaker 1: because of Trump? And mean that can't be true, right,
Speaker 1: Are they left with PTSD or they what do they do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of people who are both grateful
Speaker 1: for this. You know, let's say may be boring, but
Speaker 1: traditional like a traditional president, right, a typical president American
Speaker 1: president where he's working behind the scenes. There's you know,
Speaker 1: we're seeing things like the vaccine rollouts. We're seeing all
Speaker 1: these things happening, but we're not hearing him brag about
Speaker 1: it or you know, talk about in outlantish ways. So
Speaker 1: you know, I think we are coming down. I mean
Speaker 1: the other thing that you know, obviously in terms of
Speaker 1: we look at Trump's presidency back in the early um
Speaker 1: days of it. In this past year, we have this
Speaker 1: confluence of anxiety for producing factors. We had the pandemic,
Speaker 1: we had the politicized part of the pandemic, we had
Speaker 1: George Floyd's murder, the resulting protests. Um, they're just you know,
Speaker 1: racial tension that was kind of out in the UH
Speaker 1: in our direct we couldn't avoid it anymore. And then
Speaker 1: you know, still going on with with the pandemic. UM
Speaker 1: people were sick and all sorts of things that came together,
Speaker 1: right and Trump is you know, obviously was in that mix.
Speaker 1: But for people who struggle with anxiety and just people
Speaker 1: in general, this past year has increased anxiety and mental
Speaker 1: health has deteriorated across the board across America. We you know,
Speaker 1: you can find statistics all over the place that talked
Speaker 1: about how much depression anxiety symptoms have increased this past
Speaker 1: year and how much UM in particular, you know, young
Speaker 1: adults are are struggling, and so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I look at us, this just layered issue in terms
Speaker 1: of there was so much going on and so much uncertainty.
Speaker 1: You know, there were so many parts of this and
Speaker 1: still the pandemic is not over. But we're still coming
Speaker 1: down from all of this. And I don't think we're
Speaker 1: going to see the psychological emotional impact until later this year,
Speaker 1: possibly into twenty two. Because you think about it, you know,
Speaker 1: we're we've been on survival mode because we've had to write,
Speaker 1: and you think about like we I've talked a lot
Speaker 1: about the phases of the pandemic, right the this is
Speaker 1: kind of like a summer party and we're all in
Speaker 1: its together a phase, and then the oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: we're not this isn't going to be gone by summer,
Speaker 1: and the you know, trying to juggle kids and remote
Speaker 1: learning and all sorts of uncertainty in terms of both,
Speaker 1: as you said, like the conspiracy theory still going on
Speaker 1: and also really confusing information that was changing quite rapidly.
Speaker 1: We're still figuring that out in terms of psychologically having
Speaker 1: to survive that and having to be on a sort
Speaker 1: of day to day adrenaline fueled trying to understand how
Speaker 1: to how to be safe. But that's gonna take a
Speaker 1: while to really come down from that because humans are
Speaker 1: not designed for long term trauma and crisis. We're designed
Speaker 1: for short term, you know crisis you think about, you know,
Speaker 1: with um our fight or flight system that's designed for
Speaker 1: like short term running away from a threat. As humans,
Speaker 1: our brains and our bodies are not designed for long
Speaker 1: term threat assessments. So we're exhausted. We're feeling just sort
Speaker 1: of you know, kind of languishing and not feeling great
Speaker 1: and that's part of this process of coming down from
Speaker 1: such an intensely exhausting time in our history. It's interesting
Speaker 1: you said languishing. I did read an article in the
Speaker 1: New York Times recently that said we were languishing, And
Speaker 1: you know, I never really understood what that word meant.
Speaker 1: I confuse it with luxuriating and and languishing, you know,
Speaker 1: as I just came to learn means, you know, that
Speaker 1: feeling of why do I wake up in the morning
Speaker 1: and just look at social media and I can't really
Speaker 1: start my day and I'm just but it's not enjoyable,
Speaker 1: It's not leisure or you know. Yeah, and it's interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm fully vaccinated, and I went and flew
Speaker 1: home to see my family. I live in Californiay live
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, and I hadn't seen them in sixteen months.
Speaker 1: It was so normal that I remember thinking it really
Speaker 1: was like, alway, should have not them yesterday. Oh this
Speaker 1: is normal. There was there was zero feeling that had
Speaker 1: ever happened. Do you think that what I'm describing as
Speaker 1: sort of feeling like it never happened is some kind
Speaker 1: of trauma response. Absolutely, And in my practice what I'm
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of is people's anxieties around going back
Speaker 1: to pre COVID life, right, and what does that look like?
Speaker 1: You know, will I still feel connected to my family
Speaker 1: and my friends? Like I think that is definitely a
Speaker 1: traumal response. And you know something I've been talking a
Speaker 1: lot about with people, It's like, Okay, all your feelings
Speaker 1: make total sense. You're you know, we're getting back to normal,
Speaker 1: but we're not really normal. You know that. I mean
Speaker 1: that just is where we're at right now in terms
Speaker 1: of uh in our country. Yeah, things will feel normal,
Speaker 1: And you know what I will often talk of up
Speaker 1: with clients, It's like, Okay, remember that shift that we
Speaker 1: had to make in March. Everything changed, people working from home,
Speaker 1: people who were in school, We're going to zoom classes,
Speaker 1: Like everything changed pretty drastically within that month. This re
Speaker 1: entry into society is not going to feel as extreme
Speaker 1: as that, because it will be kind of the sense
Speaker 1: like what you're talking about, like having a through all this,
Speaker 1: and then at some point we will feel a little
Speaker 1: more settled and safe with celebrations like we will have
Speaker 1: grief in terms of you know, remembering like wow, the
Speaker 1: you know graduation last year, my song graduated from eighth
Speaker 1: grade last year, and it was like a drive through
Speaker 1: graduation and they did the best they could with you
Speaker 1: do during COVID, but there were so many events that
Speaker 1: people we were canceled, that missed out on. It had
Speaker 1: to dramatically change. And so I think when we re
Speaker 1: fall back into um society, things like you know, holidays
Speaker 1: or weddings or graduations, our milestone birthdays, we may have
Speaker 1: some grief coming up remembering like, wow, this feels so
Speaker 1: good and we missed you know, a lot of this
Speaker 1: and the year plus that we were kind of in
Speaker 1: in lockdown. We'll be right back after this quick message
Speaker 1: from one of our sponsors. So as you're working with
Speaker 1: college students, can you just tell me about what what
Speaker 1: they're experiencing and how it is kind of the same
Speaker 1: as it ever was and maybe even a little bit
Speaker 1: different for this generation. Yeah, so a little backstory. I mean,
Speaker 1: college student mental health has been detererating for probably about
Speaker 1: ten years. So we just kind of see year after
Speaker 1: year that more students are struggling, that more reaching out
Speaker 1: for you know, to their compling centers of the universities
Speaker 1: and they can't keep up with the demand and therapists
Speaker 1: often aren't able to keep up with the demand for services,
Speaker 1: so they are able to google symptoms. But they also
Speaker 1: talk openly about therapy. You know, they're like sharing their
Speaker 1: tips from you know, their therapists with their friends. There
Speaker 1: there's not a stigma about going to therapy is just
Speaker 1: like really weird, you know, bad sign. I think they
Speaker 1: see it as more healthy and a positive thing. So
Speaker 1: that is you know, coud generation of being able to
Speaker 1: see this as a healthy and I think their parents
Speaker 1: often are more educated around you know, seeing therapy and
Speaker 1: mental health services as a proactive way to get support. UM.
Speaker 1: So you know, that is sort of the bigger picture
Speaker 1: that the issue around college state mental health has vendeturiating
Speaker 1: for years, year after year, UM, and the pandemic just
Speaker 1: continue to kind of blow that apart. When you think
Speaker 1: about college student development in terms of they're like psychological
Speaker 1: emotional task during college is to separate from their families
Speaker 1: of origin and develop their own identity, right to start
Speaker 1: that process of separating from you know, what they were
Speaker 1: in their family unit and figuring out who am I
Speaker 1: on my own and independently you know, of my family
Speaker 1: or of other expectations that people might have for me.
Speaker 1: So when you think about that, I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of college students, you know, they're living on their own.
Speaker 1: They were, you know, doing their thing with their friends,
Speaker 1: with their activities, and all that came to a halt.
Speaker 1: I mean for many college students, you know, the dorms
Speaker 1: shut down, they had to go back and live with
Speaker 1: their parents all of a sudden, and their parents were home,
Speaker 1: you know as well. Mostly so I mean just being
Speaker 1: able to shift from being on your own with friends,
Speaker 1: with your community and then being with parents, and you know,
Speaker 1: for some it was just kind of you know, bummer, like,
Speaker 1: I gotta be around my folks again. But for some people,
Speaker 1: there are certainly more unsafe living environments, things that were
Speaker 1: more traumatic in terms of family stress, and very unsafe
Speaker 1: living environments. So there's always you know, levels of distress
Speaker 1: of things like that. My mom's eight two and she
Speaker 1: was saying, I loved a year in my life. I mean,
Speaker 1: I could die any time. I'm maybe two and I'm
Speaker 1: thinking one forty seven and I'm single, and I'm about
Speaker 1: to go into menopause and I have more wrinkles now
Speaker 1: and I should be out there dating. And you know,
Speaker 1: everyone thinks their age is the worst to be stuck
Speaker 1: at home and lose quote a year of their life.
Speaker 1: But I mean, honestly, it probably is the FID who
Speaker 1: is getting ready to go back to college or go
Speaker 1: to college for the first time that that disappointment of
Speaker 1: when do I start my life? I mean, at least
Speaker 1: an example of my mom and me, we have a
Speaker 1: whole life to look back on that we've lived. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine how you know it. It seems like that
Speaker 1: could be very almost too much to handle, Like how
Speaker 1: would they even soothe themselves or feel a sense of hope?
Speaker 1: That must rob them of hope. Yes, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I work a lot of less university students, which is
Speaker 1: where my my practice is located, and they had a
Speaker 1: commencement last year, but it was like it was aversuum,
Speaker 1: and this year they're doing something it's kind of like
Speaker 1: attacked on to the graduation. So it's like they're getting
Speaker 1: a little taste of it, but it's not the same,
Speaker 1: you know, And a lot of people we saw last year,
Speaker 1: a lot of people weren't able to say goodbye to professors,
Speaker 1: to friends, to their community who are graduating, and they
Speaker 1: had to just kind of deal with that process in
Speaker 1: a very different way than the traditional like closure of
Speaker 1: you know, having celebrations having left, you know, gatherings of
Speaker 1: friends being able to have a celebration of accomplishments, but
Speaker 1: like a goodbye to these people in these communities that
Speaker 1: they've been been in for four years. So I think
Speaker 1: there was some you know, loss and grief, and I
Speaker 1: anticipate that that will continue to come up for certain
Speaker 1: people with seeing perhaps younger friends graduate and just missing
Speaker 1: but that they didn't have that experience. How do you handle?
Speaker 1: You know? So for me, growing up with anxiety my
Speaker 1: whole life. So I'm in college, I have anxiety. I'm
Speaker 1: having panic attacks. My teachers don't know it of some
Speaker 1: of them accused me of being on drugs because it
Speaker 1: was acting so weird. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: once I figured out what anxiety was for me, um,
Speaker 1: it was the very classic like not understanding that my
Speaker 1: fight or flight was kicking in and for a lot
Speaker 1: of my anxiety was phobia. Is so everything I learned
Speaker 1: about my anxiety was, hey, you know what, everything I've
Speaker 1: anxiety about isn't really real, you know, um, And that
Speaker 1: was a relief. Unfortunately, Uh, you know, I had anxiety
Speaker 1: as a kid, I grew up during the eighties. I
Speaker 1: thought we were going to get nuked every five minutes,
Speaker 1: you know. So there was that as well, and that
Speaker 1: was very real, and that dissipated once you know, we
Speaker 1: sort of didn't nuke anyone or get to But then
Speaker 1: my anxiety became more phobic. But how do you deal
Speaker 1: and how what do you say to students who are
Speaker 1: anxious about very real things? I mean, the world climate
Speaker 1: change is worse now than it was when I was
Speaker 1: in college. You know, Um, there there are actual terrible things.
Speaker 1: You can't tell them it's fight or flight or so,
Speaker 1: so how do you help them? Right? It'd be invalidating
Speaker 1: to tell somebody, oh, this is irrational, right because there
Speaker 1: their fears and their anxieties around the pandemic, around being isolated,
Speaker 1: around this job market, climate curses, um, racial injustice. Everything
Speaker 1: is legit and real and Trump, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of what we went through with with that presidency. So
Speaker 1: I think when what I come down to with um,
Speaker 1: those situations, it's like, Okay, where do you have control? Right?
Speaker 1: Because a lot of anxiety is when we feel out
Speaker 1: of control, um, And so you know, what, what do
Speaker 1: you have control? Of birds. You know you're yourself is
Speaker 1: that you know your um, your abilities to how you
Speaker 1: spend your time, how what media you consume, UM, connections
Speaker 1: that you make with other people, relationships all that. So
Speaker 1: being able to help people understand, you know and validate like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really scary too. You know, think about the world, um,
Speaker 1: the state of the world and the real issues that
Speaker 1: we're facing. And if you stay in that place too long,
Speaker 1: you're probably gonna be just like curled up in a ball,
Speaker 1: uh and unable to function because it's just and you
Speaker 1: know that emotional reasoning and part of the brain will
Speaker 1: just start going off and people will start feeling just
Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, and that's
Speaker 1: not going to be really that helpful for that person.
Speaker 1: So in that way, it's like, you know, talking about
Speaker 1: things that they have control over and also ways to
Speaker 1: cope with that stress. I mean, you know, exercise, like
Speaker 1: being able to release some of that physiological stress is
Speaker 1: so important, and you know, I kind of I sometimes
Speaker 1: she use my class like, I know, your therapist is
Speaker 1: telling you to exercise, like you know that's so difficult,
Speaker 1: and you know there's there's physiological reasons why that is
Speaker 1: helpful because we need to be able to release you know,
Speaker 1: that emotion and that physiological stress being outside, you know,
Speaker 1: being able to be in nature. There's so many studies
Speaker 1: around like the benefits of being around green trees and
Speaker 1: how that relaxes are our brains because we're able to
Speaker 1: have there's patterns of nature that we don't have, you know,
Speaker 1: in our computer screens and some of the basics. You know,
Speaker 1: coming back to those basics, are people sleeping enough, are
Speaker 1: they eating enough? How much are they using on their smartphone?
Speaker 1: Because we know, you know, logically how much that can
Speaker 1: be damaging because we read something that is a real
Speaker 1: threat um but we can unfortunately activate our finer flight
Speaker 1: system and all of a sudden we're worrying about the
Speaker 1: world again. And so it's not naive to be able
Speaker 1: to protect ourselves, to be able to have some sense
Speaker 1: of calm and connection. Well, you know, it's interesting, Uh
Speaker 1: it sounds like, I mean, we all know what people
Speaker 1: can do for anxiety, right, breathing exercises and thoughts stopping
Speaker 1: and all that therapy stuff, But it sounds like, honestly,
Speaker 1: underneath it all, what you're saying is like you're not
Speaker 1: saying it like this, but get a life, And I
Speaker 1: mean that in the best, like, have a big life,
Speaker 1: you know. And I do think they're I think social
Speaker 1: media has exacerbated this, this sense of if we're not
Speaker 1: aware every second of how terrible everything is, not a
Speaker 1: good enough citizen, We're not a good enough liberal, We're
Speaker 1: not a good enough whatever. And when I've talked to
Speaker 1: younger people, a lot of them have accused me of
Speaker 1: being a little more chill in my forties. Oh, you
Speaker 1: must be rich, you must have everything I'll figured out,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, no, Now, I'm actually just in
Speaker 1: acceptance of the uncertainty, you know. Um, and I cannot
Speaker 1: we cannot come together on the two generations. I cannot
Speaker 1: convince them that it's just as scary at forty seven
Speaker 1: to not know what's going on as it is at seventeen.
Speaker 1: But I think the one thing that really I have
Speaker 1: learned getting older is that you know, it's it's it's everything.
Speaker 1: You said, what do I have control over? And I
Speaker 1: don't need to be flippant, but I have a big
Speaker 1: inner life as well, you know, a spiritual life, a
Speaker 1: sense that I'm not just this material world. I'm not
Speaker 1: just a citizen of America. I'm also a soul and
Speaker 1: I like to dance and sing you know around my
Speaker 1: apartment of course, but you know things like that where
Speaker 1: it's like it doesn't seem important, but it is kind
Speaker 1: to the point of life, you know. And and uh,
Speaker 1: I think these generations are a little bit further from
Speaker 1: that than mine was. You know, maybe because I'm old
Speaker 1: enough touch I I worry are they having fun or
Speaker 1: young people having fun? You know, that's an interesting point.
Speaker 1: I was talking about this yesterday actually, So we know,
Speaker 1: like the young people are not taking as many risks
Speaker 1: as our generation. And there's some good things about that, right,
Speaker 1: They're having less sex, they're having pure relationship dating relationships,
Speaker 1: they're not like driving as early, they're not experimenting as
Speaker 1: much with substances. Like there's some good things about all
Speaker 1: of that, right, in terms of being cautious, thoughtful, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But then there's also some learning that they miss ada, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, think about like dating normally, you know,
Speaker 1: people go through some dating experiences that aren't so great
Speaker 1: because then they learn about who they are and what
Speaker 1: they're looking for in a partner, and that's very helpful information.
Speaker 1: So I see some of the young adults and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, a pendulum past plug. I'm, you know, forty six,
Speaker 1: and I remember my parents drapping me off of college
Speaker 1: like hey, good luck, and I'll talk to you in
Speaker 1: a week. Right, That's was parenting back then. It was
Speaker 1: very kind of hands off and a little distant. And
Speaker 1: now the pendulum is swung way in the extreme of
Speaker 1: the other way. And sometimes I worry about the young
Speaker 1: adults not having built up some of those skills to
Speaker 1: cope with like daily, you know, stressors on their own volition.
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're able to tax parents or other
Speaker 1: people right away if they're feeling some feelings instead of
Speaker 1: maybe just sitting with those feelings and kind of thinking
Speaker 1: what do I want to do with this? You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: sitting with feelings. You know, it's interesting. I found a
Speaker 1: bunch of letters, big box of letters that my friends
Speaker 1: and I had sent each other in college. You know,
Speaker 1: my friends and I weren't were different colleges, and we
Speaker 1: would write letters. And you know, there was obviously no internet,
Speaker 1: no cell phones, and kids out there listening. If your
Speaker 1: friend was in college in Colorado when you were in Boston.
Speaker 1: That was a long distance call. Nobody had that money.
Speaker 1: So your letters, people were sitting down writing with pen
Speaker 1: and paper, which I know studies have shown gets you
Speaker 1: connected to your feelings, calms calms you down. So these
Speaker 1: little things that we I wasn't sitting there going, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm hoping my nervous system. But we naturally did things
Speaker 1: every day that actually destressed and calmed our nervous systems
Speaker 1: and made us sit with our feelings. It takes an
Speaker 1: hour to write a long letter, you know, Um, it
Speaker 1: takes five seconds to send an emoji on a text.
Speaker 1: And I again, anyone listening, I know, I sound like
Speaker 1: the old lady, but I'm I'm doing it too. Now.
Speaker 1: I don't write letters anymore. I send a smiley face
Speaker 1: like I'm tent. We can't like get rid of technology
Speaker 1: and give everyone a pen. But in a weird way,
Speaker 1: it's like it's hard for them to I think believe
Speaker 1: when you say exercise or journal, because that wasn't a
Speaker 1: part of life every day. You know, it seems like
Speaker 1: just some crap someone's making up. Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 1: we we know we need to wonder and we need
Speaker 1: to be able to have time just to like be creative, right,
Speaker 1: and just like I like to put around my house
Speaker 1: right on, like on a Saturday morning, just have my
Speaker 1: coffee and and that's when I think about things and
Speaker 1: result things and you know, think about ideas and such,
Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, those simple things are
Speaker 1: not always um encourage because we do have so much
Speaker 1: of that access to technology. Uh that's immediate and always there.
Speaker 1: It's chronic. And so yeah, I think this generation of
Speaker 1: being able to be be outside, take a walk, you know,
Speaker 1: being able to not have their phones connected to them
Speaker 1: on seven. I have a twelve and a fifteen year
Speaker 1: old and you know, well, I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: we're doing an activity today. That activity is going to
Speaker 1: the forest preserve and taking a walk with her dog.
Speaker 1: Basic stuff because you know, during co baby couldn't do
Speaker 1: much more than that. But you know, the rules were
Speaker 1: like no phones, no technology. We were just gonna hang
Speaker 1: out and it is what we could see around us,
Speaker 1: and that was it, right, And I think there is
Speaker 1: something really important about that. That's when our brain relaxes
Speaker 1: and kind of let's go a little bit and we
Speaker 1: notice things that are interesting. You know, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like look at that really huge tree and not beautiful.
Speaker 1: You know those leaves that look like they've been there
Speaker 1: for thousands of years? How long has that tree been there?
Speaker 1: You know, just things that we can really immerse ourself in.
Speaker 1: That's great too when you mentioned like an old tree,
Speaker 1: you know, even something that gives you the sense of Okay,
Speaker 1: so Earth has been here longer than me, probably be
Speaker 1: here long after me. I'm just in this universe. I
Speaker 1: know some people don't like that, but for me, the
Speaker 1: smaller I can think of myself is very comforting, like
Speaker 1: I don't have to solve the world's problems. In ten years,
Speaker 1: we will be through this completely. There might be something
Speaker 1: else going on, but we will be able to look
Speaker 1: in the rear very mirror at this time in the
Speaker 1: past and say like, oh, this is what I remember,
Speaker 1: these are the things I took from that. And we'll
Speaker 1: also probably honestly minimize some of the stress and the
Speaker 1: anxiety look back at I don't know, World War two
Speaker 1: or you know different very very stressful times in our
Speaker 1: country's history. I think people have had to minimize how
Speaker 1: really stressful and awful it was just living through that. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little
Speaker 1: message from one of our sponsors. You know, I have
Speaker 1: a quick story for you about my parents, which is
Speaker 1: going to lead me to a question about parenting. And
Speaker 1: then I have one last question for you know, let
Speaker 1: you go. Thank you for taking so much time with
Speaker 1: me today. Um So, when I was nineteen and in college,
Speaker 1: my fear flying was out of control. I had only
Speaker 1: flown about once a year. Every year with my parents,
Speaker 1: we fly from Lost into Florida go to Disney World.
Speaker 1: So I'd only flown about five times, ten times to
Speaker 1: you count that it's around trip. And I had panic
Speaker 1: attacks on plane since I was eight, and at one point,
Speaker 1: at age fourteen, I said, the anxiety from the flight
Speaker 1: is not worth the one week of fun in Disney World,
Speaker 1: and I'm not flying anymore. My parents said okay, and
Speaker 1: we didn't go. And I got to college and I
Speaker 1: didn't do any of the trips abroad that were offered
Speaker 1: through my school because I was afraid to fly. And
Speaker 1: you know, my parents are they're not boomers, they're older,
Speaker 1: they're silent generation. So my parents attitude, honestly was more
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I don't know, I don't have
Speaker 1: no advice about anything. I don't have any expectations. I
Speaker 1: don't have any So in a way, I think that
Speaker 1: was helpful because they also had no judgment, if that
Speaker 1: makes sense. They just accept it for what it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they didn't try to fix our help But then
Speaker 1: one day my mom said, you know, there's a fear
Speaker 1: of flying course at the Boston Logan Airport. You might
Speaker 1: want to look into it, and they paid for it.
Speaker 1: And my fear flying was so bad that I also
Speaker 1: had a fear of driving, and and once I got
Speaker 1: close to the airport and saw the planes, I would panic.
Speaker 1: So I couldn't go alone. So once a week my
Speaker 1: dad drove me to the class and it was by
Speaker 1: a very old school Boston therapist who smoked cigarettes in
Speaker 1: the building because you could back in, drank coffee during class,
Speaker 1: and was very irreverent and funny, and um my dad
Speaker 1: loved the class. He allowed my dad to sit in
Speaker 1: on it, so long story short, he gave us these
Speaker 1: tapes that we had to listen to every night, and
Speaker 1: basically what we were doing was a relaxation response body
Speaker 1: scan and I loved it. So I lay on the
Speaker 1: living room floor and listen to the tapes and my
Speaker 1: parents would get on the floor and do it with me. Well,
Speaker 1: there was no parenting class they took or be supportive.
Speaker 1: But what I look back and realize is they didn't
Speaker 1: act like I had anxiety and it was something weird
Speaker 1: and different. So is there anything accidentally great about what
Speaker 1: my parents did in the sense of, like, what do
Speaker 1: you say to parents whose teenagers have anxiety? How can
Speaker 1: they help them? Yeah? Man, I love that story because
Speaker 1: I think what they did was they very indirectly like
Speaker 1: made you feel like, Okay, this is just something that's
Speaker 1: going on, and you know we're going to help you
Speaker 1: through then be there for you and do whatever you
Speaker 1: know we can do to to address it, and is
Speaker 1: indirect right, And so I joke, I have a fifteen
Speaker 1: year old son. We have the best conversations when we're
Speaker 1: in the car and I'm driving and he's in the
Speaker 1: passenger seat because there's no eye contact, right, And so
Speaker 1: for teenagers that's like too much. They don't like eye contact.
Speaker 1: So we can talk really freely when there's not that
Speaker 1: pressure of eye contact. Um, So you know I think
Speaker 1: with parents, yeah, like just being real, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think one of the generation, one of the generational improvements
Speaker 1: UM and parents is certainly an openness to talk about feelings,
Speaker 1: to talk about depression and anxiety, to talk about scary
Speaker 1: things and talk about that openly. Um. You know, and
Speaker 1: I know that's not true across the board, but I
Speaker 1: just think in terms of parents that I know, like
Speaker 1: we are really good at validating feelings and talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, how our kids they're doing, and really being
Speaker 1: open to listening to what they're they're going and through.
Speaker 1: You know, it sounds really basic, but I think a
Speaker 1: lot of it is like show your teenagers that you
Speaker 1: care and like that you're not shaming them or judging
Speaker 1: them or telling them what to do. UM. I had
Speaker 1: this incident with my twelve year old daughter. She was
Speaker 1: talking about me and girls at school, and I of
Speaker 1: course gotten to like mom bear mode. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: just you know, really making me mad that she's going
Speaker 1: through this. And I said, do you maybe just to
Speaker 1: listen or do you want me to like help you
Speaker 1: figure this out? She goes, I just need you to listen.
Speaker 1: So she went on and on just was I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's so hard and it's terrible, and I hate that
Speaker 1: for you when you're experiencing that, and then at the end,
Speaker 1: I was like, do you need any more support or
Speaker 1: you know, how are you feeling? No, I'm feeling good.
Speaker 1: I just needed to like let it out. And so parents,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if anything, we're over parenting or
Speaker 1: like a little over evolved um right now on our
Speaker 1: stage of of this parenting generation. And so like, our
Speaker 1: kids don't need us to fix them, they just need
Speaker 1: us to listen and take care and to be open
Speaker 1: to hearing what they're thinking. That's great advice because you know,
Speaker 1: I think that that's what a lot of couples therapy
Speaker 1: advice is to right, Like sometimes your partner just wants
Speaker 1: you to listen. And so it's like, oh, yeah, our kids,
Speaker 1: our kids. I have no kids, but parenting and parents
Speaker 1: and children, it's all relationship like any other. And from
Speaker 1: our generation of how we were parents, and many of
Speaker 1: us were either in validated. It's like, why are you
Speaker 1: feeling like that? What's that about? Shame to feeling emotions,
Speaker 1: shut down, told to get over it, like those types
Speaker 1: of things. And so I think, you know, the other
Speaker 1: end of that is just not not going to the fixing,
Speaker 1: because that might be opposite of what we experienced but
Speaker 1: going to just being open and listening and caring and
Speaker 1: you know, figuring out with them and like collaborating what
Speaker 1: I mean, Teens really want to be respected, you know,
Speaker 1: because they're used to being told what to do. They're
Speaker 1: used to be treated like they don't know anything, and
Speaker 1: so for teens, it's really important for them to feel
Speaker 1: like a sense of Okay, mom and dad, you know,
Speaker 1: respect me, and they value my opinion and like how
Speaker 1: to navigate that. And you know, sounds kind of simplistic,
Speaker 1: but I think that's really like the foundation of being
Speaker 1: able to help teens. Well, it does sound simplistic, but
Speaker 1: I know that if I take that and really internalize
Speaker 1: it. It It is hard sometimes to respect people younger than
Speaker 1: you because you kind of a little bit you know
Speaker 1: their future. You know where they're going to change. You
Speaker 1: may not know what they're going to like or dislike
Speaker 1: as they get older, where they're going to live, but
Speaker 1: you know, in general, one day they'll look back and go, oh,
Speaker 1: why did I worry so much about blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Like it's hard to kind of know a little bit
Speaker 1: of the future and not try to live it for
Speaker 1: them or speed them through it, you know, and so
Speaker 1: is there anything that I didn't ask you that you
Speaker 1: would love to to say to anyone listening, Um, teenagers
Speaker 1: with anxiety, people anxious about the state of the world,
Speaker 1: just anything that I didn't cover. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: think I think we do have to remember the perspective.
Speaker 1: We will get through this and emotionally things will will
Speaker 1: feel better because we're back to our our normal routines
Speaker 1: and there's so much help with build block there. I
Speaker 1: think that's the awesome part of the Internet. Terms of
Speaker 1: obviously therapists, I mean telehealth, Um, we're still as a
Speaker 1: practice all working from home because it's the safest thing
Speaker 1: to do right now. So tell Health has improved access
Speaker 1: to therapy. You know, people can just take an hour
Speaker 1: of their day and be in their living room and
Speaker 1: see their therapists through through Zoom. So you know, the
Speaker 1: accessibility to therapy. Um, there's so many you know, great
Speaker 1: self health books and different models of therapy that are
Speaker 1: specific to people dealing with anxiety and depression. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of resources out there, and it's okay, it's also
Speaker 1: not know where to start and to know, like you know,
Speaker 1: part of it's just kind of figuring out what what
Speaker 1: fit's for that person, right. It's very individualized, and you
Speaker 1: know that's part of like, well we talk about themes
Speaker 1: and talk about you know, suggestions and things like that.
Speaker 1: I never really know like what will really resonate if
Speaker 1: one person will be very different based on each individual.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Dr Jennifer Panning
Speaker 1: and here's some takeaways some things to remember. Uncertainty and
Speaker 1: unpredictability is a big component of anxiety. People with anxiety
Speaker 1: mistakenly think if I can control my world, I will
Speaker 1: have my ability to feel calm and feel like I
Speaker 1: know what's coming up next. For people with anxiety, pandemic
Speaker 1: and political situations increased anxiety and mental health statistically has
Speaker 1: deteriorated across the board. Now that might sound upsetting, but
Speaker 1: the one silver lining is that you are not alone.
Speaker 1: Humans are designed for short term crisis, not long term
Speaker 1: crisis like we've experienced since and the start of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: So again, if you are asking yourself, well, why don't
Speaker 1: I feel better? You're not alone and you're very normal.
Speaker 1: An important part of young people differentiating from their fami
Speaker 1: only is the ability to ask themselves the questions who
Speaker 1: am I on my own and independently of my family
Speaker 1: or of other expectations that people might have for me.
Speaker 1: Grief seemingly out of nowhere may now come up for
Speaker 1: students who didn't have a normal graduation experience in now.
Speaker 1: If the world is stressing you out and you don't
Speaker 1: have control over the world, ask yourself where do you
Speaker 1: have control? Is it how you spend your time? What
Speaker 1: media are you consuming, What connections are you making with
Speaker 1: other people? Exercise can release the physiological and psychological stress
Speaker 1: that we have. And it's a cliche because it's true.
Speaker 1: Take a walk, being in nature, not looking at our
Speaker 1: phone actually benefits our brain. Take a walk before you
Speaker 1: sit around worrying what your diagnosis is. Get back to basics.
Speaker 1: Are you sleeping enough, are you eating enough? How much
Speaker 1: are you on your phone? All of that can affect
Speaker 1: your fight or flight syndrome, And don't be afraid to
Speaker 1: get a life. You're allowed to have some fun even
Speaker 1: with everything going on. Nobody needs you to be seven vigilante,
Speaker 1: constantly checking Twitter, making sure you know every single person
Speaker 1: that's suffering in the world. You're allowed to take that
Speaker 1: walk in nature, put your phone down, connect with your
Speaker 1: friends and enjoy your life. Thanks for listening to Anxiety Bites.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week. I promise no politics next
Speaker 1: week Anxiety Bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.