WEBVTT - Getting A Life 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.480 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:18.159 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode. My guest today is 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.400 Dr Jennifer Panning. Now, before I tell you all about 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.680 Dr Panning, I guess I'll give you a little bit 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.680 of heads up about this episode. We talk about politics, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:35.239 and in specific, we talk about Donald Trump. Now, I 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:40.480 want everyone who listens to this podcast to feel included. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.320 This is certainly not a political podcast, but there is 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.840 an element to politics and how we consume media, about 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:56.080 politics being a cause for some of our anxiety, and 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.160 there was a phenomenon where a lot of people who 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:04.200 wouldn't label themselves as political started paying attention to politics 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:12.520 after Trump got elected, and they also found themselves experiencing anxiety. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.920 So there is a connection and it's a conversation to 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.880 be had. However, if you are a Donald Trump supporter 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.360 and you don't want to sit around for the Trump bashing, 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.240 which truly, in my humble opinion, I don't think it is, 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.280 but I know we're really divided on this as a nation. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.600 I still think you can get a lot out of 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:38.840 this episode by just thinking about again your relationship to 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:43.880 the media you consume, what do we do when politics 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:48.600 has caused us some anxiety. So that's just my little caveat, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:51.840 because this episode is different than a lot of the 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.080 other ones because we do talk about the real world 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.320 and not that anything else I've talked about isn't the 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.160 real world, but you know what I'm saying. We also 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.760 do discuss the pandemic of I know it's still going on, 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.680 but the initial lockdown of and how it changed all 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.600 of our lives and how that caused and contributed to anxiety. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.760 And we talk about Dr Panning's main career right now, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.919 which is working with students, and so we do segue 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:26.480 into a conversation about what teenagers and young people are 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.720 facing right now that is unique to their generation, and 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.360 some of the things about being young that is not 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.080 unique to any generation, and how you can support the 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.880 young people in your life. So. Dr Jennifer Panning is 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.280 the founder and president of the Mindful Psychology Associates PC. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.280 She's been an Illinois licensed clinical psychologist for sixteen years. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.680 She received her doctors Psychology degree in clinical psychology from 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.560 Chicago School of Professional Psychology in two thousand three. She 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:59.919 completed trainings at Northwestern University Counseling and Psychological Services Center 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.919 and Northern Illinois University Counseling and Student Development Center, developing 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:09.480 her expertise in college student mental health. She has her 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.079 private practice in Evanston, Illinois, which she has had since 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:18.000 two thousand four. However, in she authored a chapter for 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.680 the New York Times bestselling book The Dangerous Case of 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.959 Donald Trump twenty seven Mental Health Experts Assess a President. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:30.840 Her contribution was entitled Trump Anxiety Disorder, and from coining 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.360 that term, she was that led her to being interviewed 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.440 a lot, writing and speaking about the anxiety and fear 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.280 amidst the existing socio political climate. Dr Panning has since 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.280 been featured in New York Magazine, The Washington Post, Esquire, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.720 CBS News, and many more. So again, I talked to 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.040 Dr Panning today about about all of this. How you know. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.960 I have a theory that people who had anxiety before 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.320 Trump became president maybe didn't talk about it, maybe they 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.119 weren't even aware that they had it. But everyone who 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.400 was of the same political stripes bonding over the fact 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.520 that they didn't want this man to be president, it 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.400 felt more comfortable for them to say I have anxiety 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.880 about the president. Oh me too, whereas before they wouldn't say, well, 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.600 I have anxiety about how I feel I'm performing at 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.920 work or if I'm a good parent to my kids. 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.919 But it gave us a common language. Now that's my theory. 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.600 Doctor panting will enlighten me more on what she thinks 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.479 about that, because I've read her credentials out loud to you, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.520 and I don't have any of those credentials. I'm just, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.640 as I say, a dumb comedian. We talk about how 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.279 the pandemic caused us anxiety, and how a lot of 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.440 people are continuing to languish despite things being semi back 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.800 to normal or at least not in total lockdown here 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.680 in America, and what will post COVID life look like. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.440 I do have to give you a heads up. We 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.880 did record this interview before the Delta variant was rampant 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.559 in America, So if we ever sound hopeful or maybe 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.080 even naive, like do they not know about the Delta variant, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.680 we did not yet at the time of this recording. 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.560 And again we talked about her work with college students 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.920 and what it's like to be young and have anxiety today, 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.400 to not be able to draw on too much life 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.000 experience and say, oh, I've been in this situation before. 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.960 I'll be okay. Young people are at the beginning of 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.839 their life journey and they need adults to help give 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.480 them proper tools and to validate how they feel as well. 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.520 So I hope you enjoy my talk with Dr Panning 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.760 and we'll catch you on the flip side of the 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.719 interview with some takeaways that we got from Dr Panning. 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.960 Thank you so much for being here, Dr Panning. I 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:52.720 know we have the first same first name, Jennifer. Yeah, okay, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.440 well I might, but I like to be respected. You 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.200 can call me Dr Kirkman. So I want to have 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.120 you on the show because you're you're really an expert 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:07.080 in two areas. I know that your real uh. I 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:08.680 was gonna see your real life as though you have 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.880 an alternate life. Your day to day practice. You are 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.040 working with college students. Yes, I own a I own 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.040 a group practice in Evanston, Illinois, which is one suburb 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.160 north of Chicago. The practice is called Mindful of Psychology 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.440 Associates and so um, I'm uh I had it. And 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.200 then we have a other therapist and we're hiring more therapists. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.360 So I started in private practice in two thousand four 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:38.600 in Evanston after doing my post doctoral training at Norcosterian 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.800 University Counseling Center. So I've been working with college students 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.400 for almost twenty years now. M HM and you also 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.080 were part of a book that came out a couple 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.520 of years ago about President Trump and I. The name 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.800 of that book was Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. Mental 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.280 Health Experts assass the President. You coined the term Trump 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.320 anxiety disorder? Is that that's true right now? I had 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.279 read an article at the beginning of Trump's presidency, and 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.880 I have people in my life who I know that 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.080 they're anxious. I can see it. Um, there's no way 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.800 that I have anxiety and they don't, but there is 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.080 some denial. But when Trump became president, it was almost 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.680 actually a very freeing thing for them to start saying, 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.440 I'm anxious because Trump is dot dot dot right, give 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.200 them permission to talk about it openly. So when when 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.600 we talk about the many ways that Trump being president 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.640 and the media and social media around Trump gave people anxiety, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:40.480 do you think though, that some people had anxiety in general, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.000 perhaps even generalized anxiety disorder already, and this just gave 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.080 them a story to tell. Um, I don't think I 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.559 gave a story to tell, but I do think people 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.680 who had pre existing anxiety disorders or tendency towards anxiety, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.320 we're certainly more impacted by Trump than than other people 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.680 because you think about anxiety disorder, like the uncertainty and 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.960 the unpredictability is a big component of anxiety, right, People 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.040 who like to be in control, you know, because they think, 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.120 if if I control my world, I will have you know, 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.080 my ability to feel calm and feel like I don't 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.680 know what's coming next. And Trump just blew all of 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.360 that up, right. I mean, that is the biggest I 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.160 think take away from his presidency was just the chaos 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.600 and the uncertainty and the you know, day to day 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.360 checking the news, what is he saying, what is he tweeting? 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.680 What outlandish thing is happening next? So I think that 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.000 people just really you know, who were anxious before picked 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.600 up on that and it was really um hard and 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.880 traumatic for them to make sense of that. I think, 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.160 you know, we see now like Biden is like a normal, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.760 boring president, right, I mean, a typical president in that 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.480 we're not worrying, you know, what he's he's doing. On 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.640 a daily basis with all these sort of outlandish, chaotic 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.080 tweets and things like that, we kind of know he's 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:04.400 doing president central things, as did Obama, as did Bush, 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.480 I mean, all the you know, typical presidents beforehand. So 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.680 Trump was just a completely different um president than we've 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.640 ever had, and for for many of us, we struggled 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.120 and suffered with how like, how do we reconcile that 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.640 and how do we stay rounded with all this chaos 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.600 and uncertainty happening. Well, it's interesting that you say, you know, 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.360 we all say this, Biden's boring, thank god, But I 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.360 think it's funny because you know, um, as a doctor, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.800 that boring is really not the opposite of chaos, right, 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.800 you know, it's more like content would be the opposite 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.160 of chaos. I mean, obviously, without getting too deep into 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.120 politics about it all, but if if we want to 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.160 look at it very basically, the man who was on 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.360 social media all day and who did have the you know, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.959 key to the nuclear football, he's he's not there. So technically, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.280 on one level, a lot has dissipated just because of that. Now, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.400 obviously we have a whole other world with conspiracy theorists 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.280 going on and we still always have to fight for 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.679 a democracy no matter what. But the big head has 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.480 been cut off the hydros. So does that just mean 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.400 the anxiety goes away for people that just developed anxiety 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.360 because of Trump? And mean that can't be true, right, 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.800 Are they left with PTSD or they what do they do? Yeah, 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.800 I'm seeing a lot of people who are both grateful 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.240 for this. You know, let's say may be boring, but 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.640 traditional like a traditional president, right, a typical president American 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.920 president where he's working behind the scenes. There's you know, 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.080 we're seeing things like the vaccine rollouts. We're seeing all 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.920 these things happening, but we're not hearing him brag about 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.120 it or you know, talk about in outlantish ways. So 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.760 you know, I think we are coming down. I mean 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.319 the other thing that you know, obviously in terms of 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.360 we look at Trump's presidency back in the early um 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.760 days of it. In this past year, we have this 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:02.960 confluence of anxiety for producing factors. We had the pandemic, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.520 we had the politicized part of the pandemic, we had 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:11.240 George Floyd's murder, the resulting protests. Um, they're just you know, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.920 racial tension that was kind of out in the UH 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.640 in our direct we couldn't avoid it anymore. And then 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.000 you know, still going on with with the pandemic. UM 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.760 people were sick and all sorts of things that came together, 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.120 right and Trump is you know, obviously was in that mix. 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.959 But for people who struggle with anxiety and just people 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.760 in general, this past year has increased anxiety and mental 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.680 health has deteriorated across the board across America. We you know, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.400 you can find statistics all over the place that talked 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:51.199 about how much depression anxiety symptoms have increased this past 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.520 year and how much UM in particular, you know, young 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.080 adults are are struggling, and so I think, you know, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.360 I look at us, this just layered issue in terms 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.520 of there was so much going on and so much uncertainty. 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.880 You know, there were so many parts of this and 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.640 still the pandemic is not over. But we're still coming 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.120 down from all of this. And I don't think we're 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.840 going to see the psychological emotional impact until later this year, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.160 possibly into twenty two. Because you think about it, you know, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.160 we're we've been on survival mode because we've had to write, 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.640 and you think about like we I've talked a lot 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.640 about the phases of the pandemic, right the this is 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.280 kind of like a summer party and we're all in 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.520 its together a phase, and then the oh my gosh, 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.120 we're not this isn't going to be gone by summer, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.880 and the you know, trying to juggle kids and remote 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.240 learning and all sorts of uncertainty in terms of both, 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.520 as you said, like the conspiracy theory still going on 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.360 and also really confusing information that was changing quite rapidly. 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.040 We're still figuring that out in terms of psychologically having 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.560 to survive that and having to be on a sort 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.760 of day to day adrenaline fueled trying to understand how 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.400 to how to be safe. But that's gonna take a 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.959 while to really come down from that because humans are 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.360 not designed for long term trauma and crisis. We're designed 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.000 for short term, you know crisis you think about, you know, 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.440 with um our fight or flight system that's designed for 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.400 like short term running away from a threat. As humans, 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.520 our brains and our bodies are not designed for long 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:28.360 term threat assessments. So we're exhausted. We're feeling just sort 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.800 of you know, kind of languishing and not feeling great 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.600 and that's part of this process of coming down from 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:40.960 such an intensely exhausting time in our history. It's interesting 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:42.839 you said languishing. I did read an article in the 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.120 New York Times recently that said we were languishing, And 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:46.880 you know, I never really understood what that word meant. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.120 I confuse it with luxuriating and and languishing, you know, 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.200 as I just came to learn means, you know, that 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:54.800 feeling of why do I wake up in the morning 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.880 and just look at social media and I can't really 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.199 start my day and I'm just but it's not enjoyable, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.120 It's not leisure or you know. Yeah, and it's interesting. 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.200 You know, I'm fully vaccinated, and I went and flew 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.280 home to see my family. I live in Californiay live 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.360 in Massachusetts, and I hadn't seen them in sixteen months. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.600 It was so normal that I remember thinking it really 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:14.320 was like, alway, should have not them yesterday. Oh this 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.920 is normal. There was there was zero feeling that had 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.720 ever happened. Do you think that what I'm describing as 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.840 sort of feeling like it never happened is some kind 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.520 of trauma response. Absolutely, And in my practice what I'm 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.720 seeing a lot of is people's anxieties around going back 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.520 to pre COVID life, right, and what does that look like? 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.160 You know, will I still feel connected to my family 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.680 and my friends? Like I think that is definitely a 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.680 traumal response. And you know something I've been talking a 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.760 lot about with people, It's like, Okay, all your feelings 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.600 make total sense. You're you know, we're getting back to normal, 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.840 but we're not really normal. You know that. I mean 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.880 that just is where we're at right now in terms 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.480 of uh in our country. Yeah, things will feel normal, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.160 And you know what I will often talk of up 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.320 with clients, It's like, Okay, remember that shift that we 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.200 had to make in March. Everything changed, people working from home, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.119 people who were in school, We're going to zoom classes, 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:16.080 Like everything changed pretty drastically within that month. This re 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.040 entry into society is not going to feel as extreme 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.760 as that, because it will be kind of the sense 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.000 like what you're talking about, like having a through all this, 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.240 and then at some point we will feel a little 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:31.560 more settled and safe with celebrations like we will have 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.200 grief in terms of you know, remembering like wow, the 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.920 you know graduation last year, my song graduated from eighth 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:39.600 grade last year, and it was like a drive through 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.720 graduation and they did the best they could with you 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.720 do during COVID, but there were so many events that 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.560 people we were canceled, that missed out on. It had 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.280 to dramatically change. And so I think when we re 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:57.920 fall back into um society, things like you know, holidays 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:02.240 or weddings or graduations, our milestone birthdays, we may have 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.520 some grief coming up remembering like, wow, this feels so 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.600 good and we missed you know, a lot of this 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.600 and the year plus that we were kind of in 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:17.480 in lockdown. We'll be right back after this quick message 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:29.360 from one of our sponsors. So as you're working with 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.960 college students, can you just tell me about what what 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.640 they're experiencing and how it is kind of the same 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.320 as it ever was and maybe even a little bit 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:41.320 different for this generation. Yeah, so a little backstory. I mean, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.680 college student mental health has been detererating for probably about 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.080 ten years. So we just kind of see year after 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.400 year that more students are struggling, that more reaching out 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.320 for you know, to their compling centers of the universities 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.280 and they can't keep up with the demand and therapists 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.640 often aren't able to keep up with the demand for services, 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.240 so they are able to google symptoms. But they also 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.320 talk openly about therapy. You know, they're like sharing their 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.560 tips from you know, their therapists with their friends. There 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.800 there's not a stigma about going to therapy is just 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.840 like really weird, you know, bad sign. I think they 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.520 see it as more healthy and a positive thing. So 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.879 that is you know, coud generation of being able to 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.399 see this as a healthy and I think their parents 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.639 often are more educated around you know, seeing therapy and 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:33.159 mental health services as a proactive way to get support. UM. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.560 So you know, that is sort of the bigger picture 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.520 that the issue around college state mental health has vendeturiating 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.560 for years, year after year, UM, and the pandemic just 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.520 continue to kind of blow that apart. When you think 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.200 about college student development in terms of they're like psychological 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.240 emotional task during college is to separate from their families 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.639 of origin and develop their own identity, right to start 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.760 that process of separating from you know, what they were 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.080 in their family unit and figuring out who am I 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.520 on my own and independently you know, of my family 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.240 or of other expectations that people might have for me. 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.280 So when you think about that, I mean a lot 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.400 of college students, you know, they're living on their own. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.280 They were, you know, doing their thing with their friends, 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.159 with their activities, and all that came to a halt. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.000 I mean for many college students, you know, the dorms 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.440 shut down, they had to go back and live with 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.480 their parents all of a sudden, and their parents were home, 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.280 you know as well. Mostly so I mean just being 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 able to shift from being on your own with friends, 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.600 with your community and then being with parents, and you know, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.040 for some it was just kind of you know, bummer, like, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.840 I gotta be around my folks again. But for some people, 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.240 there are certainly more unsafe living environments, things that were 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:52.520 more traumatic in terms of family stress, and very unsafe 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.120 living environments. So there's always you know, levels of distress 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.639 of things like that. My mom's eight two and she 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:00.239 was saying, I loved a year in my life. I mean, 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.040 I could die any time. I'm maybe two and I'm 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.720 thinking one forty seven and I'm single, and I'm about 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.560 to go into menopause and I have more wrinkles now 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.159 and I should be out there dating. And you know, 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.080 everyone thinks their age is the worst to be stuck 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:12.880 at home and lose quote a year of their life. 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.200 But I mean, honestly, it probably is the FID who 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.520 is getting ready to go back to college or go 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.240 to college for the first time that that disappointment of 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.800 when do I start my life? I mean, at least 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.679 an example of my mom and me, we have a 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.199 whole life to look back on that we've lived. I 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.560 can't imagine how you know it. It seems like that 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.639 could be very almost too much to handle, Like how 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.440 would they even soothe themselves or feel a sense of hope? 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.760 That must rob them of hope. Yes, I mean, you know, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.800 I work a lot of less university students, which is 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.080 where my my practice is located, and they had a 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.840 commencement last year, but it was like it was aversuum, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:53.879 and this year they're doing something it's kind of like 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:58.400 attacked on to the graduation. So it's like they're getting 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.240 a little taste of it, but it's not the same, 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.280 you know, And a lot of people we saw last year, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.000 a lot of people weren't able to say goodbye to professors, 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.480 to friends, to their community who are graduating, and they 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:12.679 had to just kind of deal with that process in 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.639 a very different way than the traditional like closure of 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.520 you know, having celebrations having left, you know, gatherings of 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.240 friends being able to have a celebration of accomplishments, but 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.800 like a goodbye to these people in these communities that 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.680 they've been been in for four years. So I think 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.119 there was some you know, loss and grief, and I 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.480 anticipate that that will continue to come up for certain 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.520 people with seeing perhaps younger friends graduate and just missing 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.680 but that they didn't have that experience. How do you handle? 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.520 You know? So for me, growing up with anxiety my 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.800 whole life. So I'm in college, I have anxiety. I'm 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.080 having panic attacks. My teachers don't know it of some 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.040 of them accused me of being on drugs because it 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.640 was acting so weird. But at the end of the day, 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.840 once I figured out what anxiety was for me, um, 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.199 it was the very classic like not understanding that my 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.880 fight or flight was kicking in and for a lot 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.440 of my anxiety was phobia. Is so everything I learned 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.639 about my anxiety was, hey, you know what, everything I've 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.919 anxiety about isn't really real, you know, um, And that 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.920 was a relief. Unfortunately, Uh, you know, I had anxiety 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.600 as a kid, I grew up during the eighties. I 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.399 thought we were going to get nuked every five minutes, 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.720 you know. So there was that as well, and that 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.959 was very real, and that dissipated once you know, we 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:31.200 sort of didn't nuke anyone or get to But then 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.200 my anxiety became more phobic. But how do you deal 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.680 and how what do you say to students who are 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.399 anxious about very real things? I mean, the world climate 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.000 change is worse now than it was when I was 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:47.720 in college. You know, Um, there there are actual terrible things. 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.240 You can't tell them it's fight or flight or so, 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.480 so how do you help them? Right? It'd be invalidating 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.160 to tell somebody, oh, this is irrational, right because there 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:02.160 their fears and their anxieties around the pandemic, around being isolated, 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:07.480 around this job market, climate curses, um, racial injustice. Everything 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.480 is legit and real and Trump, you know, in terms 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.720 of what we went through with with that presidency. So 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.960 I think when what I come down to with um, 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.520 those situations, it's like, Okay, where do you have control? Right? 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.680 Because a lot of anxiety is when we feel out 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.680 of control, um, And so you know, what, what do 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.920 you have control? Of birds. You know you're yourself is 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.760 that you know your um, your abilities to how you 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.760 spend your time, how what media you consume, UM, connections 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.440 that you make with other people, relationships all that. So 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.960 being able to help people understand, you know and validate like, yeah, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:47.359 it's really scary too. You know, think about the world, um, 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:49.840 the state of the world and the real issues that 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.840