1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: should know podcasts. How you doing, I'm good, I'm good. 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: You I'm sweepy? 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: Oh are you? 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: I'm a little beat myself. Is it just life or 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 2: did you stay up till five am drinking? 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: No, it's just hitting right around the old nap time, 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: So you know. 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: I'm with you. Do you ever doze off all your studying? 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: Uh? No, but I you know, I still try and 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: catch a short nap every day, and on the recording 15 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: days that sometimes happens. But today was I was not 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: able to gotcha? 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: Well, we'll retire eventually. Hang in there. 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: I'll sleep when I retire. 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: Hey, So what do you want to talk about today? 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I prepped for a show on Jane Goodall, 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: so did I. And she's the best. 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: She is she is she is widely roundly, basically globally 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: universally probably seen as essentially a great person. 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she's cherished and for good reason. After 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: did you watch the documentary for this at all? 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: By the way, I didn't the Future one from twenty seventeen. 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: Jane, Yeah, yeah, no I didn't. It's great. 28 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: It sounds great. I read a lot about it, as 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: I do, but I haven't seen it. Yeah, I'll have 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: to watch it still. 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really good. Highly recommended if you're listening and 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: if this hearing about her, you know, inspires you to 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: learn more at all, because it's a great documentary of footage, beautiful, 34 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: beautiful color film stock from back then when she was 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: doing her studies. And it's not it's not like a narrate. 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: It's it's narrated just by her thoughts and this beautiful 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: score and it just shows it. It's just really really 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: lovely the way it plays out. 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: That's awesome. I heard the car chase in the middle 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: is really great. 41 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't expect it, but very good. 42 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 2: So drive drive, drive. Yeah, so we're talking Jane Goodall. 43 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: For those of you who don't know who Jane Goodall is, 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 2: she is one of the world's foremost renowned primatologists. And 45 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: she did it the old fashioned way by going out 46 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: into the jungle and learning as she did. It's called 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: the school of hard knocks, I think. Yeah, that's the 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: thing about Jane Goodall. She had a high school education 49 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: when she started. She did not go to college, not 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: for a while, and a guy named Lewis Leakey, a 51 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: famous anthropologist, took a gamble on her on purpose because 52 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 2: he was looking for somebody who could who was not trained, purposely, 53 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: not trained so that they weren't bringing a bunch of 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: preconceptions to them to study chimpanzees. And Jing Goodall fit 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: the bill. As we'll see, she's loved animals since she 56 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: was a kid, and after just a few months started 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: excelling at it and eventually changed how the world sees chimpanzees. 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: We didn't know much about him before, We had a 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: lot of assumptions about him, and Jing Goodall showed that 60 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: they were just let's just turn those on their heads. 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, how's that. 62 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: For an intro baby? 63 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: It's pretty good? 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: Thank you? 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: Do we I mean, do we get more specific? Even? 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: Oh? I thought we'd get specific as we went along, 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: but sure, go ahead. 68 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. So she was born in nineteen thirty four in 69 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: England to her mother Margaret and her father Mortimer. Go 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: ahead and forget I even said father Mortimer, because he 71 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: was not around much and he does not feel much 72 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: in her story. He divorced when Jane was but sixteen. 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: But especially after watching this documentary, if we're going to 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: salute Jane Goodall, we are going to have to salute 75 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: her mother, because her mom was the one who was like, Hey, 76 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: you want to figure something out, then go figure it 77 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: out and go learn it and go do Instead of 78 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: talking about something, go out and do it because no 79 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: one else is going to do it unless you do it. 80 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: And who cares that it's the nineteen forties and fifties. 81 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: Who cares that you're a young girl. Just go out 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: and do it, Jane, by God, and she did. 83 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, She very famously encouraged her to go dance on 84 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: the rain, feel the rain in her skin because no 85 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: one else will do it for you. 86 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: That's right, And like you said, and this is what 87 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: maybe set her apart from other scientists at the time. 88 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: She loved, loved and loved animals like capital l O vee, 89 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: and that sort of flew in the face of the 90 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: dispassionate history of how you study animals. 91 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, biologists typically approached animals totally detached, totally unemotional. 92 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: They were aware opposed to. 93 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: That was how they were trained to and it makes 94 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: sense in a way because this is there was a 95 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: widespread fear and there apparently still is among you know, 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: hardcore biologists and other ologists that study animals, that we 97 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: humans have a just a great propensity for anthropomorphizing animals. 98 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: And how can you study animals if you're just essentially 99 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 2: presuming that they're behaving like humans. You can't if they're 100 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: doing something that's actually not human like and you're just 101 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: misinterpreting it, you're being misled by your anthropomorphism. So there 102 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: was a real there was The workaround that they figured 103 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: out was to just look at them dispassionately. They're just animals. 104 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: I don't care what their names are, I don't care 105 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: anything about them. I'm just going to study them as 106 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: dispassionately as possible in the hopes of preventing from anthropomorphizing. 107 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: That was the predominant view, and again it still kind 108 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: of is. It's complete hogwash, the idea that there's just 109 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: no inner lives to animals, and apparently there's still some 110 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: academics that cling on to that, but it does make 111 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: a little bit of sense where if you're worried about 112 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: projecting your own feelings and values and emotions and thoughts 113 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: onto the animals you're studying, then just don't get attached 114 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 2: to the animals. And that's what she entered into. 115 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: You know, he said, what they don't care what their 116 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: names are. 117 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure they have names like ragnor the Conquerors. 118 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: Probably a pretty regular name for a cow. 119 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: I would think so. But you're right, But she flew 120 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: in the face of that. She loved animals as a child. 121 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: She would just spend hours and hours and hours as 122 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: a young girl drawing animals, talking about animals, writing about animals, 123 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: and not just you know, birds are fun because they fly, 124 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: like observing them like a little miniature scientist. So she 125 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: had recollections about bringing worms to bed when she was 126 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: a toddler, like one of her first memories. Another was 127 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: when she went to watch a hen laying an egg 128 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: and like document that whole process. Spent five hours in 129 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: a hen house as a young girl, and her parents 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: couldn't find her, and her mom, you know, called the cops. 131 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: They thought she had wandered off. 132 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw very pivotally when she was younger. 133 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what age, but she was a young kid. 134 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: Still she was fascinated with the pigs that she saw 135 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: on the English countryside, and she wanted to hang out 136 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: with them, but they would always run away. So she 137 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: taught herself to be super patient and to sit and 138 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: get them to come closer to her and eventually feed 139 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: them and won their trust that way, and that would 140 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: later serve her very well when she started to study chimpanzees. 141 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, that patient's in the documentary you 142 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: know you mentioned Lewis Leaky. He was a very famous 143 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: paleontologist and anthropologist who gave her her break in the 144 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties when she met him in Kenya. I guess 145 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: we should say she got there because she graduated from 146 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: high school and was like, you know what, I'm not 147 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: gonna we can't afford college. I'm gonna go get a 148 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: couple of jobs, hustle save money so I can go 149 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: to Africa and study on my own. But she got there, 150 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: and Leaky she said part of the reason she got 151 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: the job was because he wanted someone with monumental patients. 152 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: I ease, somebody who would sit there for what ended 153 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: up being five months before she even saw chimpanzees. 154 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: Basically, man, that guy would be like a senior VP 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: at ZIP recruiter, just based on that one pick he made. Yeah, 156 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: for sure, if you were around today, did you like that? 157 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: That was a little buzz marketing for one of our advertisers. 158 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: They haven't been around in a while, so okay, well 159 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: for maybe they'll come back. 160 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, Lewis leaky. Apparently she started out as a 161 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: secretary for him, right, yeah, And then I guess he 162 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: found out that she wanted to do animal studies, and 163 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: he said, okay, here's your chance. I'm going to send 164 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: you to Tanzania to study chimpanzees. We don't know much 165 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: about chimpanzees. We want you to go find out all 166 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: about them. And so, at age twenty six in nineteen sixty, 167 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: she arrived in Tanzania with her mom. Because the Tanzanian 168 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: government I believe it was still a colonial government at 169 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: the time, if not then at least a transitional government. Still, 170 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: they required a chaperone for someone in her position, so 171 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: she brought her mom along, who'd been a great supporter 172 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: and booster all her life, like you said, And they 173 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: also very importantly had an cook who was a local 174 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: named Dominic and within a very short amount of time, 175 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: both her mom and she came down with malaria and 176 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: they were very fortunate to have Dominic from what I saw, 177 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: because he helped nurse them back to health. 178 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he was a big He's kind of 179 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: like part of the family from what I gathered. 180 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: That's what I gathered too. 181 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: This is at the Gombi Stream Game Reserve which is 182 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: now the Gombi Stream National Park, and her mom didn't 183 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: stay too long. She was there about four months. But 184 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: while her mom was there, she helped set up a 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: either set up or work with medical camp there to 186 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: help provide you know, medical services to locals. So her 187 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: mom was getting in there getting her hands dirty. Eventually 188 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: would leave to go back to England and Jane stayed there. 189 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: You know, she was not with Leaky. He didn't like 190 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: stay there with her. He set her up with his 191 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: job also apparently was you know, making passes at Erica's 192 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall and this kind of popped that throughout her 193 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: career was a very pretty young scientist at a time 194 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: when that was fairly unusual, I think, especially where she 195 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: was located. And she was like, no, thank you, doctor Leaky. 196 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm not interested, but I appreciate you. You you know 197 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: trust in trusting this position to me at least, but 198 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: hands off. 199 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: He said, that's what That's just what I wanted to hear. 200 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he wanted to hear just that. 201 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: So apparently she got set up with six months of 202 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: funding initially, and she started to get really worried because 203 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 2: at least three months passed and she was spending all 204 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: day every day with a couple of locals who were 205 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 2: walking her around the jungle looking like pointing out like 206 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: this would probably be a pretty good place for chimps 207 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: to show up. This tree has a bunch of fruit 208 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: on it. They'd sit around. The chimps wouldn't show up. 209 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 2: They did show up, they were covered up by leaves. 210 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: She couldn't see what they were doing if she got 211 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: if she moved to get a little closer so she 212 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: could get about, they would all run away. That was 213 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: when she saw them, Like she was her research was 214 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: in great jeopardy. She was, you have to have chimps 215 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: to study to get more funding and continue your research. 216 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: So she was starting to get worried by month three 217 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: or four. And I guess finally she won the trust 218 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: of at least one group enough that they wouldn't run 219 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: off when she would just kind of show up and 220 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: hang out and feed or watch them feed. And I 221 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 2: saw that one of the reasons, or one of the 222 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: ways that she won the trust of the chimpanzee groups 223 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: that she was observing was by kind of behaving like them, 224 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: Like she ran around barefoot everywhere. She would hang out 225 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: in the trees for a long periods of time and 226 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: just kind of tried to treat them or behave as 227 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: if they were her peers rather than study subjects or 228 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: test subjects. 229 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, she those one. At one point in 230 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: the documentary, she's talking about the dangers of where she 231 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: was and these poison snakes everywhere, and you know, all 232 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: manner of ways in which you could die out there 233 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: doing what she was doing, and she was and it 234 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: didn't sound naive either. She just said, you know, I 235 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: felt like I was supput And she's got that great 236 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: British accent too, so it just everything sounds so great. 237 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: But she said she felt like she was supposed to 238 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: be there, and that if she just treaded carefully and 239 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: respected the land and the creatures around her, then they 240 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: would like allow her to stay there, like these snakes 241 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: were not going to come bite her and send her away, 242 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: because she's, like I was, I'm supposed to be here, 243 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: And it was really kind of a lovely thing. She 244 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: really seemed like she fit in such that finally, five 245 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: months in, with time running out, a chimp named David 246 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: Graybeard obviously she's giving them these names, and he had 247 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: a kind of looked like me a little bit. He had, 248 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: this little gray Beard trusted her. He was the first 249 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: one of that group allowed her to get closer and 250 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: closer and closer. He eventually alsome bananas, came back for 251 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: more bananas, and he was the one that said to 252 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: the other chimps, hey, this lady, she's not too bad. 253 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: Look at her. 254 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 2: So we then treat bananas. 255 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: She's hanging out and the footage of her and we'll 256 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: get to whether or not this was the correct thing 257 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: or not later, but the footage of her dead, still 258 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: holding bananas out in her hand and seeing these very 259 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: large chimpanzees coming up and taking them from her hands, 260 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: and the way she's acting is is breathtaking because nobody 261 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: had done that before. 262 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say today you could see somebody 263 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: doing that, And the reason why you could see someone 264 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: doing this, because Jing Goodall was the first to do 265 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: it exactly. She had no idea. She had no frame 266 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: of reference for whether they were going to be violent 267 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: toward her or whether they were going to throw their 268 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 2: poop better or whatever. She had no idea. So that 269 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: was a real risk that she was taking by interacting 270 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: with them that directly. And then in addition to it 271 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: being risky, it was driving any academic who was aware 272 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: of her work completely baddie, because that is a big 273 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: nice man. That's not at all what you do. Not 274 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: only do you not like get attached to them, you 275 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: certainly don't feed them, you don't interact with their infants, 276 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: don't you don't give them names. That was another one, 277 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: David Graybeard. Yes, I'm gonna go with you and assume 278 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: that that wasn't his actual name, that she gave them 279 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: that name. And that was driving like academics crazy, like 280 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: she was doing everything wrong, and yet it was starting 281 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: to really pay off in aces. 282 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, you're not supposed to name Jimps And 283 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: she's like, have you ever bet at a gym? Jump right? 284 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: It's like it's working, Yeah, it really, and it really 285 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: did work, Like thanks largely thanks to David Graybeard, at 286 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: least at first who who, like you said, said this 287 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: lady's all right? And then her patience and then her 288 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: feeding them an endless supply of bananas. All those three 289 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: combined to win over the trust of large groups and 290 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: families of chimpanzees. 291 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: Should we take a break, I think we should. All right, 292 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with moron. Do you know who? 293 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: Right after this? 294 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So, Jane Goodall is feeding chimps bananas. At 295 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: this point, she's named them, named all of them. I mean, 296 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: she really kind of had to get very creative with 297 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: the names because she would identify a family lineage by 298 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 2: like a letter, so like the F family, all of 299 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: the members for generations had first names that began with F, 300 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: like Flow or Flossy or Fabian or Freud, and that's 301 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: how she kept track of them. But again, other academics 302 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: would have just given them numbers, like maybe they all 303 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: started with the same number or something like that, but 304 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 2: certainly not names. And from observing them that closely, and 305 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: I guess, I guess interacting with them probably had a 306 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 2: lot to do with it. But interacting with them allowed 307 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: her to get that close, and by interacting that closely, 308 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: she was able to see things that up to that 309 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: point people had no idea chimpanzees were capable of. One 310 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: of the first things she realized is that they have 311 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: a huge, intricate, complex social system with hierarchies, like I said, families, alliances, territories, 312 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: like all sorts of stuff that people just did not 313 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: realize chips were capable of engaging in. 314 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, big time. Communication wise, she found out there were 315 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: at least twenty different sets that they were making to communicate, 316 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: and that's in addition to any kind of body language 317 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: or behaviors they may exhibit towards one another. She was 318 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: the first person that said, hey, these guys aren't just 319 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: eating bananas and berries and things. They are omnivores. They're 320 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: eating birds, they're eating insects, they're eating baby baboons. Sometimes 321 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: she would figure this out later, much to her dismay, 322 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: they would eat other chimps. But the big finding that 323 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: she came out with that kind of shook signs to 324 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: its core was that she observed chimpanzees engaging in object modification, 325 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: which is basically sort of proto tool making, when they 326 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: would take blades of grass and sticks and things and 327 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: strip them down or bend them, or clump blades of 328 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: grass together and shape them in certain ways to stick 329 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: into ant hills most effectively and efficiently to draw out 330 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: ants to eat them. And she was like, hey, wait 331 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: a minute, Like, the big differentiator up until this point 332 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: in the history of evolution between us and them is 333 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: that we use tools. That's all everyone talked about was 334 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: that we use tools and animals don't, and that's what 335 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: makes us different. She's like, right here in front of 336 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: my face, they are using object modification, which is basically 337 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: a tool. 338 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, like you just you said it. It shook the 339 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: scientific world to its foundations. Like that was just such 340 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: a huge finding that Lewis Leaky declared very famously that 341 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 2: we must redefined tool, redefine man, or accept chimpanzees as humans. 342 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 2: Like that's how big of a deal. 343 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: It was. 344 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 2: Dramatic, it was, But I mean, up to that point, 345 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 2: like you said, people just tools made a human. Anything 346 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: that could make a tool technically qualified as human. Everything 347 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: else couldn't make tools. So it was a big deal. 348 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 2: And then on top of that, to me, even more 349 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: groundbreaking is that they realized that different groups of chimps 350 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: use the same tool in different ways, and that like 351 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 2: say one group would use the short stick to get 352 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: termites on it to eat them one by one. Another 353 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: group would use a longer stick to let a bunch 354 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: of them walk on and then eat it like a 355 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: corn cob probably, and that they would pass how to 356 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: do that down to different generations. And that's culture and 357 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: its most basic definition that qualifies as culture. And I 358 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: saw it compared to how Westerners use forks, but people 359 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 2: in Asia use chopsticks. They're both the same tool they're 360 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: used to they're implement to get food to your mouth, 361 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: but they're just different and they're passed down through the 362 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: culture their cultural differences. And that's the same thing with 363 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 2: the different ways of using a termite stick, right, And 364 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: that is culture. So she discovered that chimps have cultures as. 365 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: Well, and some of them open their presence on Christmas Eve, 366 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: some of them wait until Christmas more or all kinds 367 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: of things she observed. 368 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a big surprise too. They're terrible at 369 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 2: wrapping presents too, they're so sloppy. 370 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: Another big surprise, Well, they just used the funny papers 371 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: from Sunday, which can you blame them. Another big surprise 372 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixty two when National Geographic then Geo 373 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: Society that is, sent a filmmaker, a Dutch filmmaker name 374 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: Hugo von Lowick there to film her work. She was 375 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: not thrilled at this idea. She really enjoyed her solitude there. 376 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: She did not want some dude mucking up the works 377 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: and kind of quite honestly spoiling her scene that she 378 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: had going on there. She really enjoyed climbing trees and 379 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: being alone and not having to deal with some jerk 380 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: with a camera. But she knew that's where the funding 381 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: came from. They needed this footage if she was going 382 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: to continue to get funding. She put up with the 383 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: sky chainsmoking and throwing his cigarette butts around in the jungle, 384 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: which upset her very much, But she was like, this 385 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: guy really loved animals. He was also handsome, and she 386 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: said it became pretty obvious pretty soon that I was 387 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: also the subject of his films. Long story short, they 388 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: fall in love and make a baby. 389 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: Right that they nicknamed Grub. Did you see anywhere why 390 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: they nicknamed their kid Grub? I could not find it. 391 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: I would assume because of a grubworm. 392 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: But what did he do? 393 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: Like? 394 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: Did he was he famous for writhing around in the 395 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 2: dirt or something like that. Why would you name your 396 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: kid grub well? 397 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: I mean this kid was raised in the jungle. I 398 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: imagine all he did was writhe around in the dirt. Okay, 399 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: I mean there's footage of him. He was literally raised 400 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: in a jungle in a cage. Sounds bad, but it 401 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: was a big pin that they had previously used for animals, 402 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: and she decorated it all up for her son just 403 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: to keep him safe. It was very large. It was 404 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: like a large, you know, pin, less than a cage, 405 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: but was a cage. And the other thing she said, too, 406 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: was that having her own human baby really helped her 407 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: research it. It made her understand the how chimpanzee mothers 408 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: behaved and vice versa. And she said it really just 409 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: added a lot to her understanding of the family groups. 410 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: NAT that's pretty neat so around this time, So what 411 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: that was the early sixties. I think that her husband 412 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 2: showed up and her son was born in the late sixties. 413 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty seven, okay, in the I think in nineteen 414 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: sixty three National Geographic it essentially told the world that 415 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: Jing goodall existed in what she was doing. There was 416 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: an article cover article called My Life among the Wild Chimpanzees, 417 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: and she was starting to recount this is the thing 418 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: that she would become most advanced at, in addition to 419 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: chimpanzee's studies, is telling the rest of the world about 420 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: chimpanzees in order to get the world to keep from 421 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: driving chimpanzees and other animals into extinction. That was her 422 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: kind of second love. 423 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And again they started, you know, her 424 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: the fact that she was an attractive young woman came 425 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: up in the press and the articles were framed as 426 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, Beauty and the Beast and nat Geo cover 427 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: girl and stuff like that, which it bothered her some, 428 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: but she did realize that that got more attention and 429 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: that that inspired young women, you know, to develop interest 430 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: in science and stuff like that. And so she was like, 431 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: it's it's fine, this is what we're dealing with here 432 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, and it's bringing you know, attention 433 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: to my cause. Right. 434 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, she would have a really good kind of a 435 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: feel for that. And I keep speaking of her in 436 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: the past ten she's not dead. She just turned ninety 437 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: in April, and she seems to be doing just fine. 438 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: Her foundation says she still travels about three hundred days 439 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: a year doing speaking appearances on behalf of chimpanzees and 440 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: nature and earth in general. And a good example of 441 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 2: her kind of figuring out or knowing a good pr 442 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: piece when she sees it, her opportunity when she sees 443 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: it came in nineteen eighty seven Gary Larson, who did 444 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: the Far Side, one of the great comic strips of 445 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: all time. 446 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: You know, oh yeah, that's going to be a subject soon. 447 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So he did a far Side one one comic 448 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: panel or one panel comic of a female chimp grooming 449 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: a male chimp, and the caption is the female chimp saying, well, well, 450 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 2: another blonde hair, conducting a little more research with that. 451 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: Jane Goodall tramp and the Jane Goodall Institute found out 452 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: about this and sent Gary Larson a cease and desist letter, 453 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: and that's where everything ended. 454 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: No, no, no, of course not, you're just being coy 455 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: good always out of town. Apparently she got back in town, 456 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: heard about it, thought it was very funny, said Gary, 457 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: you can tear up that cease and desist letter, and 458 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: book your ticket for Africa. 459 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: You're going, and you're going, and you're going. 460 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. She reached out to him, he 461 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: came out there. He actually gave the Institute permission to 462 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: use the cartoon on T shirts for fundraising. She wrote 463 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: a preface for one of his book collections and it 464 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: turned into like this school friendship. 465 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so prior to that, we kind of jumped ahead 466 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: a little bit. But prior to that, she in addition 467 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: to that National Geographic cover story, less than ten years later, 468 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 2: she released her first book, In the Shadow of Man, 469 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: And this is around where she really became like a 470 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: science communicator, which she's been forever. She was one of 471 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: the early ones, pre Sagan even. I mean, she released 472 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: this book in nineteen seventy one and it was telling 473 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: the world again about all of the stuff she had 474 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: found about chimpanzees and really just revolutionizing our understanding of 475 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: chimpanzees and animals in general. And her work was so 476 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 2: significant that, remember she only graduated high school. Cambridge University 477 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: came a knock in and said, hey, you want a PhD. 478 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 2: Because we got a seat for you here, come take it. 479 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: And she thought about it a while consulting Gary Larson. 480 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: He said, Hey, I haven't met you yet. This doesn't 481 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: make any sense, and finally agreed, Sure, I'll get your 482 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: I'll take a PhD course with you guys Cambridge. 483 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: That's right. She got a degree in the study of 484 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: animal behavior, that's mythology in nineteen sixty six. No, we're 485 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: all over the place of the timeline. It's fine. I 486 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: hope everyone gets what is following the story. Sure, for 487 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: about five years she worked at Stanford as a visiting 488 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: professor and psychiatry. Also became a visiting professor of zoology 489 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: at Tanzania's University of Daris Salam. While all this is 490 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: going on, though, she's not like, oh, by the way, 491 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm just leaving Gmbhi. For years and years at a time, 492 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: she was basically there from nineteen sixty to seventy five. 493 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: It was her home. It was her emotional home, her 494 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: spiritual home. She felt very, very tied to Gombi into 495 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: that specific area, and you know that was where she 496 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: started a family and was raising a son. It was 497 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: her place. 498 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 2: So I didn't see the documentary did they cover why 499 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: she left? Was it because of her son? Because I 500 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: saw that she was conflicted, and I realized she had 501 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: to decide raise a sun or study chimps. 502 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to be schooled formally schooled in England. 503 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: But also there was the issue of her marriage, and 504 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: that's you know, we might as well talk about it now. 505 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: She started to travel some with her husband to other 506 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: places for him to film because he didn't get all 507 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: his work through that GEO. Eventually he has work with 508 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: them completely dried up, so he had no reason to 509 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: be there other than the fact that his wife was 510 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: there and loved her work. But it was at a 511 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: time and he was one of these guys where he 512 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: was like, hey, you know, work comes first and I 513 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: hope you can support me. She did that for a 514 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: little while and then she said by that time, in 515 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: a very English way, she said that had we had 516 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: begun bickering, and that seemed to be the kindest way 517 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: to say that. You know, their marriage was kind of 518 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: on fragile ground and they would eventually part ways because 519 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: of that and because of life and work, and it 520 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: just seemed like it didn't work. 521 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: Out, gotcha. So five years after she started, she established 522 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: the Gombi Stream Research Center again in the Gombi Wildlife 523 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: preserve game preserve, which means you can go hunt there. 524 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: She very fortunately met and married a member of parliament 525 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: in tan Zania named Derek Bryson, and he happened to 526 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: direct the country's national parks and went presto Chanjo and 527 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: turned the game reserve into a national park protecting Gambia 528 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 2: and its inhabitants. 529 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Pretty cool, it is pretty cool. 530 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, he passed away from cancer five years later, and 531 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: from that point on, Jane Goodall was a swinging solo lady. 532 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: That's right, and you know, I'm sure it was a 533 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: tragedy for her life, but she sort of ended up 534 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: being married to her work and seemed very happy to be. 535 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: She spent decades and decades at the Gambi Center, publishing 536 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: hundreds of papers. All kinds of researchers and doctoral students 537 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: have done field work there, gotten their PhDs through there. 538 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: She is still very active, like you said, as part 539 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: of the Jane Goodall Institute, which is basically run by 540 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: Tanzanians and has just you know, she's it's easy to 541 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: think now, like you said, like you see so many 542 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: documentaries and so much footage of people doing research and 543 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: just no one had done this stuff to that degree 544 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: at the time, as far as just living among the animals. 545 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: And it just can't be overstated how revolutionary this idea was. 546 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: This twenty six year old, you know, young British woman 547 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, that's what I want to do. 548 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: I want to climb a tree and be with them. 549 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. And Lewis Leaky had a knack for picking the 550 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: right people for this kind of work. He also hired 551 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: two other young women over the years. Diane Fosse, who 552 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: studied gorillas in Rwanda who is very memorably played by 553 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: Sigourney Weaver and Gorillas in the Mist. Yeah, and another 554 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: woman named Berrute Galdicas who studied orangutangs in Borneo. And 555 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: when you put Diane Fossei and Barute Galdicas and Jan 556 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: Good all together, you had the group that were known 557 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: as the Trymates. 558 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: Pretty funny. 559 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: We just couldn't not mention that it was just too good. 560 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't give them that name. No, no, actually, 561 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: to make it clear. 562 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Chuck, we're starting to have a little too 563 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: much fun. I say, we need to take a break 564 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: and recompose ourselves, come back and just get serious again. 565 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: All right, all right, so earlier in the episode you 566 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: mentioned a family made up of the letter F where 567 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: she you know, this is how she named and cataloged 568 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: these groups in these families and it would help her 569 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: keep track of things. And we're gonna tell you a 570 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: little story that Livia dug up about the F family 571 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: led by Flow, who was the mama to her young children. 572 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: And Flow was pretty instrumental in good Alls understanding of 573 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: just how these chip families worked. And then later through 574 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: the just beyond the family, the whole group and local 575 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: culture of that family. 576 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 2: Right, and the whole group that they studied that the 577 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: Flow in her family were members of was the cass Kela. 578 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: And there were other groups that ended up being studied, 579 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: if not by a good All, but by other research 580 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: scientists and doctoral students who showed up over the decades. 581 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: But kesse Kela was the group that she kind of 582 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: made her name on and did her research on originally. 583 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: And like you said, from studying these these families so closely, 584 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 2: she watched like how generations interacted sometimes with their own 585 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: kin group like Flow had a son named Fabian who 586 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 2: overthrew his younger brother, who's overthrown by his younger brother 587 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: Fagan to become the dominant male, and she noticed, like 588 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: becoming a dominant male of your family or of your group, 589 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: I should say, there's not one set way to do it. 590 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 2: Some do it by Some chimpanzees do it by being 591 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: kind and calm in the face of aggression. Others do 592 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: it through sheer force and bullying. Vegan was known to 593 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: just basically do it through trickery, like he would lead 594 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: others in the group away from food and then run 595 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: back and get it himself. Somehow he became the dominant male. 596 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: But by studying these chimpanzees this closely, she was able 597 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: to kind of see individual personalities and how those personalities 598 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: work together to create a society. 599 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's you know, well, it's a game of 600 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: thrones up in there, basically. Yeah. He had Flow's daughter, Fifi, 601 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: she became the dominant female. She gave birth to nine kids, 602 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: one of which was a daughter named Flossi, So this 603 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: is Flow's grand baby. Flossie ended up leaving that group 604 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: for a neighboring community called the Matumba Community. Another one 605 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: of her children was Freud, born in seventy one. Freud 606 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: grew up and then along with Fifi and Vegan helped 607 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: him rise within that hierarchy even though he was like 608 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: not really cut out for the job. Became the dominant 609 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: male in nineteen ninety three. So, like families are leaving 610 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: communities joining up with others who had previously left the community, 611 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: they're kind of grooming successors and like propping up other 612 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: chimps is like helping them become the leader and the 613 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: dominant male or female. And it's just just fascinating for 614 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: her to sit there and like document all this stuff. 615 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very much Kevellian totally. Now we have to 616 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: talk about Frodo, who was one of Fifi's sons, one 617 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 2: of Flow's grandsons. He was born in nineteen seventy six, 618 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 2: and he is one of the more famous chimpanzees of 619 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: all time because he was bad to the bone. Yeah, 620 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 2: he was. You if you believe in chimps having an 621 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: internal life and empathy and awareness of others' experiences, then 622 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: you would consider Frodo a. 623 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 1: Murderer, straight up murderer, totally for real. 624 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: I've seen it argue that he should be considered a murderer. 625 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: He was just that bad. 626 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he killed people, he did. 627 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: So he deposed his brother Freud back in nineteen ninety seven, 628 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 2: and he was one of the He was the one 629 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: I was citing when I said some of them do 630 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: it just through sheer force and intimidation. That was Frodo. 631 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: He didn't have a lot of friends, he didn't have 632 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: many alliances. He was just the biggest chimp and the 633 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: meanest chimp. And he from a young age he started 634 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 2: bullying Jane Goodall. I think I don't want to anthropomorphise here, 635 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 2: but I'm quite certain, one hundred percent certain in fact, 636 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: that he noted Jane Goodall was the person in charge 637 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: of the humans, and he targeted her specifically. He attacked 638 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: other humans over the years, but Jane Goodall. They said 639 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: that he would have a certain look on his face 640 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 2: that he reserved just for her, and he put her 641 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: in for some of the worst treatment, almost broke her 642 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: neck once, and she said kind of famously that she 643 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: was alive because he wasn't trying to kill her, that 644 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 2: he was just trying to show her who is boss, 645 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 2: and that if he wanted her dead, she would be 646 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:43,959 Speaker 2: dead right now. 647 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: Which you know, again not to use the A word, 648 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: but it sounds like he had respect for her. 649 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in a way, like a kind of a 650 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: backhanded way. 651 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: I would say he allowed her to live. 652 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: Right, I guess so, or maybe he'd needed her. 653 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: He let Gary Larson live in nineteen eighty eight when 654 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: Carrie Larson got his arm yanked, giving him a legit injury. 655 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: So that happened as well, but very sadly. Frodo was 656 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: probably most well known for killing a toddler, a fourteen 657 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: month old in two thousand and two. It was the 658 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: daughter of a park attendant who was visiting with his wife, 659 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: and he killed this fourteen month old and partially ate 660 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: this fourteen month old, and people spoke up and were like, hey, 661 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: you need to kill this chimp and take him out, 662 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: and Jane Goodall went to bat for him, and it's like, basically, 663 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: it's a chimp being a chimp, and we're the ones 664 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: that are here, and you know there's cars killing kids 665 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: all over the place. You know, go out and take 666 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: all the cars away. 667 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: That's called a straw man argument. 668 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: It is. 669 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: There's a thing though, the remember I said, I saw, 670 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 2: I'd argue that like he was a Frodo should be 671 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: considered a murderer. Certainly could be yeah, I think the 672 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 2: same person who made that argument was had been a 673 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: researcher at Gambi and argued, like, yes, we need to 674 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 2: kill Frodo. He's a murderer. Like he did that, he 675 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: knew what he was doing. He's a murderer. We need 676 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 2: to put him down. And she argued that they intervened 677 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 2: when the chimps were starving, they intervened when they needed 678 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: medical attention, but they're not going to intervene when the 679 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 2: chimp murders a human baby. It just seemed like a 680 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 2: pretty good argument, I think. At the same time, though, 681 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: if you're Jane Goodall and you're like, well, chimps are 682 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: kind of like humans, and humans are kind of like chimps. 683 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: We don't kill Frodo when he eats chimp babies, which 684 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 2: they do, so why would you do that for. 685 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: A human baby. 686 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 2: Seems a little out of touch to me with you know, 687 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 2: human society in general. But I guess I get both 688 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: sides in that case. 689 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's one of the things we should 690 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: talk about. I guess is that later in her career, 691 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: she you know, she basically said, hey, if I had 692 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,240 Speaker 1: it to do over again, I would do it differently. 693 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: We probably should not have been feeding these things bananas. 694 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: We probably shouldn't have been I shouldn't have been holding 695 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: baby chimps like they were human babies and petting them 696 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: and stuff. And I should have maybe been a little 697 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: more dispassionate in my work because if you want, you know, 698 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: really accurate data and results, like again, you shouldn't be 699 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: handing them food and stuff. So, you know, she came 700 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: clean about the things that she felt like she had 701 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: her missteps over the years as a researcher. So I 702 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: take my hat off to her for that, and very sadly, 703 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, it's possible at least that 704 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: they're stay there, their interactions, they're just merely being there. 705 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: Could have been one of the factors in what was 706 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: known as the Gombi chimpanzee War, when in nineteen seventy 707 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: one there was kind of a full on war between 708 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: two groups of chimpanzees that played out right in front 709 00:40:58,719 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: of her eyes. 710 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the dominant male of the Caskela group died 711 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 2: and I guess he was holding the glue together. This 712 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 2: guy was like Tito or something, and the group splintered. 713 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: I think nine adults and their kids said, we're going 714 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 2: to form our own group, and they took over the 715 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 2: southern half of the range, and the original Caskela. The 716 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 2: remaining Caskela they stuck to the northern part of the 717 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 2: range at first. I think over the years, the male 718 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 2: started making aggressive sounds and gestures to one another, and 719 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 2: it became clear that they were no longer treating them 720 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 2: as a kin group. You know, these were no longer friends, 721 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: even though they had been super tight friends when they 722 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 2: lived together. These were now enemies and trespassers and encroachers, 723 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 2: and the whole thing came to a head starting in 724 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four when Godie, one of the members of 725 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: the tribe that had broken away and took up in 726 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: the south, was just sitting there eating fruit and six 727 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 2: Caskela males ambushed him and I had to get away, 728 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 2: and they got him and they beat him to death 729 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 2: over a period I think about ten minutes, and that 730 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 2: kicked off the what are known as, like you said, 731 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 2: the Gombi Chimpanzee War. 732 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then other wars had been documented since then 733 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: in different areas between different groups, and like I said, 734 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,919 Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason was they were being 735 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: sort of choked out by human development. Part of it 736 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: was because there was a more stressful atmosphere though, with 737 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: people there watching and observing and doing what she was doing. 738 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: So I don't I'm not going to say that really 739 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: charnished her work. If anything, it did show that they 740 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: observed something else that they didn't know had previously happened, 741 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: which is they could be very territorial and go to 742 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: war like this. But since that time she has just 743 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: been a tireless advocate for animals over the ensuing decades, 744 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: like you said, into her early nineties now with the 745 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall Institute that is based in Virginia, has twenty 746 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: offices around the world, and she continues to write books 747 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: and speak and do ted talks, and she's just still 748 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: kicking it. 749 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. She had a podcast called the jing Goodall Hope 750 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 2: Cast that she launched during the pandemic, and then as 751 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: soon as she could stop, she stopped. The last episode 752 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 2: came out in twenty twenty two. She's very famously her 753 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 2: quote was that sucked. 754 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. By the way, when I said she's still kicking it, 755 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: I meant kicking, but like not just kicking it on 756 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: the couch. That's what kicking it really kicking. Yeah. Now 757 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: she's just still very active, and I just have a 758 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: lot of respect for the lady. She's awesome. 759 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, she is an awesome person, and yeah she gets 760 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 2: criticized by people in academia still, But like I said 761 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 2: at the outset, she's just the world loves her, like 762 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,959 Speaker 2: she's done so much good that whatever missteps she has 763 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 2: or whatever weird side she takes in moral quandaries, like 764 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: the world just forgives her. It's like it's Jane Goodall. 765 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,919 Speaker 2: She does good for the planet and has the whole 766 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 2: time essentially agreed. If you want to know more about 767 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: Jane Goodall, there's a lot to read about her and 768 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,280 Speaker 2: by her, and you can listen to her hope casts. 769 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 2: I presume they didn't erase all of the episodes. And 770 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 2: in the meantime, while you're looking all that stuff up, 771 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 2: let's go ahead and kick it old school with listener mail. 772 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: Let me call this the Ballad of grit, because that 773 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: is what Ed calls it, Okay in the subject line, 774 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm a self described band of great I 775 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: should say I've never considered myself a conscientious person to 776 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: the full meaning of the word. However, I do consider 777 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: one of my strengths is being responsible. My opinion is 778 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: that it's an insult for a gritty person to be 779 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: confused with being conscientious. Conscientiousness is a luxury for the 780 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: already bright minded person. In my opinion, I believe most 781 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: intelligent people who are successful are equally gifted with conscientiousness. Grit, 782 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is the ugly twin of conscientiousness. 783 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: It's the path less travel to success. It's how I 784 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: got through college during an engineering degree, even though I 785 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: graduated with a low GPA, barely scraping by in many 786 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 1: classes and had to retake some because I didn't pass 787 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: to begin with. My road was less traveled than it 788 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: was a tough one. I worked forty hours a week 789 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: for five years while I supported myself in college, and 790 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: I was compared to my peer graduates with whom I 791 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,720 Speaker 1: lived at home with her parents, who had the funds 792 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: to build proper projects for courses. Grit is invisible, guys. 793 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: It can't be measured. Comes from within. Grit is what 794 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: you have when you succeed without conscientiousness. I love the 795 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: show that is from ED. 796 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 2: I think ED is a pseudonym for Angela Duckworth. I 797 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 2: think this is Angela Duckworths writing in it. Good email, Yeah, 798 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 2: this is a good email. Good for you for persevering. 799 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 2: Hats off to you, man, for sure, I admire anybody 800 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 2: who worked and put themselves through college. That's really something 801 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 2: I like me. Yes, I admire you for that. 802 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: Oh, the first part was paid for and then I 803 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: was on my own. 804 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 2: Hey man, even a little bit still counts like that. 805 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 2: That's hard to do. 806 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: You know that was fine? Waited tables whatever. 807 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 2: Shate it, all right, just forget it. I'll direct my 808 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 2: comments toward Ed only then. 809 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: All right, No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. 810 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 2: If you want to be like ED and give us 811 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 2: an email to argue over, we love that kind of thing. 812 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 2: You can get in touch with us via stuff podcast 813 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com. 814 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 815 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 816 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.