WEBVTT - #037 Jason Flom with Ryan Ferguson 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.040 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.200 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.239 I hadn't do anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.120 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.720 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.199 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.320 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:46.400 in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.319 guilty when you see them on TV, because it may 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.320 just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:16.840 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.759 Jason Flamm. Today's guest is a friend of mine. He's 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.840 a remarkable human and an inspiration to everybody who knows him. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.639 And I want to embarrass you, but without further ado, 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.240 let me introduce you Ryan Ferguson. At just nineteen years old, 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.800 Ryan Ferguson was wrongly convicted of murder. He served nearly 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:36.959 a decade in prison. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.280 Ferguson was convicted for the brutal murder of beloved journalist 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.040 Kent Heidholt in two thousand and one. The crime scene 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.360 outside the newspaper where he worked littered with physical evidence 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.880 bloody footprints, fingerprints, and even hair, but none of it 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.080 matched Ryan. Again and again, he denied knowing anything about 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.400 the murder. Charles Erickson, a childhood friend of Ryan's, came 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.080 forward two years after the murder, claiming he had dreamlike 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.480 visions that he and Ryan committed the crime together. When 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.800 police led Ericson to believe Ferguson would testify against him, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.840 Erickson said he felt pressure to confess to the murder, 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.440 thinking he'd otherwise face the death conalty, and a second witness, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.200 janitor Jerry Trump, identified Ferguson as one of two men 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.400 he saw in the parking lot immediately after the murder. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.040 In the years after that two thousand and five conviction, 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.919 both of those crucial prosecution witnesses recant in their testimony. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.720 On his last appeal attempt, Ryan's conviction was overturned. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.800 After a year and a half more behind Barns. Finally, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.480 and at Pellet Court overturned that ruling, finding quote newly 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:45.520 discovered evidence clearly and convincingly establishes that he's actually innocent. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.400 And then the Missouri Attorney General's office announced it will 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.960 not retry or pursue further action against Ryan Ferguson at 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.320 this time, meaning Ryan Ferguson was a free man. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.160 Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.800 pleasure to be on your podcast. I remember when you 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.280 when you launched it the launch party. Man, just being 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.720 there was amazing, And I want to say before we start, 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.720 just thank you so much for what you do for everyone, 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.960 including myself. You know, you were part of my case 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.320 before I got out, and uh, and that gave me 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.240 a lot of hope and I appreciate that. And then 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.520 you've been very supportive to myself and everyone that I 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.600 know in the innocence community since I've been out, and 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.800 it's just amazing to see what you do for everyone. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.120 So thank you first and foremost, and let's get this 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:30.720 thing started. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.239 Oh well, I don't know, I gotta take a breath 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.840 after that, but thank you for saying so I uh, 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.960 you know, I forget these things because you know, there's 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.440 just so much to do every day. Because this is 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.520 such a an epidemic in this country. You couldn't have 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.200 seen this coming a million miles away. We'll talk about that, right. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.800 So you're you're from Missouri, right. 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.440 Yep, from Missouri. I was born born in Australia, raised 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:54.960 in Missouri. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.000 So you grew up in Missouri. And what was that like? 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:58.720 I mean, you had you had a happy childhood. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.320 I had a great childhood. Grew up in Columbia is 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.560 right in the middle of Missouri. University of Missouri, college town, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.960 great town, a lot of culture, education, a lot to do, 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.080 and so for me, it was a town of opportunity. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.720 I had great education. My parents, they took me all 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.080 over the world. They traveled with me constantly, and I 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.400 got to learn a lot about people from being in 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.680 that town and from traveling and everything else. So my 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:25.800 childhood couldn't have been any better. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.479 You had a close family, very close family. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.719 We were all together my whole life, and you know, 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.599 it was it was like the picture book family, right. 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:36.960 You know, mom, dad's sister. We had a little dog, 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.640 and you know, just a little middle class existence and 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.960 everyone was happy, everything, Everything was going good. And I 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.840 played sports in high school and had a lot of 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.640 friends and everything, and then went to college, and at 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.640 that point everything was still very normal. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:58.400 Everything was very normal until everything went completely haywire. And 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.520 you hadn't had any experience with police or arrests or 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.040 authority in any way to this point, right. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.640 Well, I had never been accused of any crimes, for 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:10.720 sure when I was in high school. You know, it's 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.200 a college town, so of course there's gonna be police 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.479 that show up at parties, people get mips and things 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.880 of that nature. No one that I knew had ever 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.359 been arrested for anything that would have put them in jail. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.120 I had never met anyone that had spent the night 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.920 in jail. You know, some kids got in trouble for 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.159 small things like like in most towns, But the fact 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:33.359 of being arrested for a real crime was it didn't 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.240 even exist in my world. 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:41.120 I was so moved and angry and just upset in general. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.440 After seeing the forty eight hours piece, which was the 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.159 first exposure I ever had to your case, some of 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.800 the things that stuck out from me about that piece 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.200 were the idea that this was a cold case right. 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.240 It was the murder of a sports reporter and he 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.880 had been beaten to death outside of his car. 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.560 I guess right, yeah, outside of his work. 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.479 And two and a half years later, no leads, nothing 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.120 going on. Right. One of the local TV stations ran 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.320 one of those things that they run time to time 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.000 where they had like a composite sketch. Right, did you 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:18.880 even know about this murder when it happened? Was it 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.200 big news in the area. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.960 Yeah, it's a small town. There's about one hundred thousand people. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.000 I do recall hearing about it. You know, anything that 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.320 happens in that town, like a murder, you hear about 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.000 it was its big news because they don't happen that often. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.960 That was the extent of my knowledge on you know, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.359 I mean young in high school and it's like, whoa, 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.000 somebody was murdered on howe any night. That's kind of creepy. 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.000 So let's go back to that. Because the sports reporter, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.600 ken Heidholt was murdered in a very brutal manner. He 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.560 was beaten to death with a tire iron or something 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.160 like that. I don't even know if they even know 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.480 to this day, but it was a heavy metal object. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:58.600 Of some sort. And when that Crimestoppers piece ran, Charles 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.120 Rickson was affected by it in some way. 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:02.360 Right. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.719 He saw this on TV. He was with his friends 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.640 and he had some sort of a vision or something 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.960 came over him which made him say to his friends, Hey, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:14.600 you know, I mean I kind of look like that guy. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.200 I wonder if it could have been if I could 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.400 have been involved in so or some crazy thing like that. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:21.960 And then one of the friends called the cops. 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:22.240 Right. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.320 And this is an interesting thing about your case, Ryan, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.760 because we've covered false confessions on this show, and false 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.160 confessions are so terribly troubling. In your case, you were 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.640 the victim of false confession, but you didn't confess. That's 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.800 what's crazy about this, Right, You were implicated because somebody 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:43.920 else who also didn't commit the crime, actually thought that 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.240 maybe he did for some reason. And the brain is 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.800 a strange thing. It's the memory. Who knows what came 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:51.320 over him? 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.320 Right. And one of the quotes that always stuck out 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.320 to me is something that Charles ericson my co defendant, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.520 the person who had these images, who ultimately I testified 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.320 against me. Something that he said, and this is verbatim. 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.120 He says, if I did it, Ryan must have been 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.400 with me. And based on that, I mean, that is 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.600 what starts this whole thing. Based on that, I lost 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.080 ten years of my life. I was put into prison 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:16.360 for a crime I had nothing to do with. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.360 Was there any physical evidence of any kind connecting to 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:19.840 this case. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.800 There was no physical evidence connecting me or Charles Erickson. 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.920 But the important fact is there is a lot of 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.320 physical evidence there. You know, there's a bloody footprint, there's 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.240 a hair in the victim's hand, there's a paper with 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.680 a palm print. There are things that, even to this day, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:42.800 could be tested to determine guilt of another individual. And 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.319 the police have chosen not to look into those things. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.480 And here's what's really really frustrating is when I got out, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.959 the public was enraged. They were frustrated with what the 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.080 police had done, and they said, we want to know 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.280 what really happened in this case, because clearly it wasn't Ryan, 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.280 it wasn't Ericson, the kid who is still to this 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.400 day in prison. And so the police said, we're gonna 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.040 we're gonna open this case. We're going to look back 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.679 into it, We're going to see what happened here. Well, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.160 three months later, you know, in a very low key way. 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.240 They're just kind of like, well, you know, we got 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.720 somebody in prison for it right now, so we're not 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.439 gonna we're not gonna investigate it. That's not gonna happen, right. 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.160 So the net effect if you're a resident of Columbia 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.319 or Missouri or the United States, because we don't know 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.600 where this guy is, this guy who is a dangerous, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.400 violent killer is out there walking amongst us. I mean, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.760 it is an outrage that they have this evidence and 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.000 they won't test it. It even for me, like, my head's going, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.720 what first of all, and let's talk about this right jail, 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.440 because this is something that people don't focus on enough. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.800 You were in jail for a long time awaiting trial. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.280 He set bail at twenty million dollars, right. 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.200 Twenty million dollar? Yeah, it was it was a you know, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.120 that is a in my mind, that's how publicity's the reality. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.000 The way our legal system works is if you're arrested 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.800 for a very serious crime, like a murder, they can 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.360 choose not to give you a bail and they do 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.240 that often, or they can give you a million dollar 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:09.000 bail whatever. Right bail is meant so that you should 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.839 have the opportunity to raise those funds and get out 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.960 so you can fight your case because you have not 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.760 been proven guilty. At that point, I had no bail 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.240 for eight months. I went into a bail hearing and 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.280 the judge out of nowhere says twenty million dollars. And 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.280 so that is a different thing than saying no bail. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.000 That is a political statement. That is her saying that 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.200 I endorse this case as a judge, and they're supposed 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.400 to be independent. I endorse this case. I'm with the prosecutor, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.040 and we're going to take this kid and put him 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.800 in prison for the rest of his life. And that 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.160 is not something a judge should do. Judge Ellen Roper 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.160 made a huge mistake there. I think she should be 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.880 health accountable for that. And that is the politics we 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.880 see with our criminal legal system in these people's lives, 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.120 you know, I mean, this is my life and that 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.839 judge is playing a game with it. And that is 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.720 incredibly scary to see, especially at the age of nineteen 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.000 or twenty, and you're just like, how is this our 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.880 legal system? How is this innocent until proven guilty? 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.520 Because it's not so Yeah, and I hadn't even thought 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.120 about that, because to my knowledge, your bail was the 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.880 highest bail in the history of the state of Missouri. 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.199 Oh, I think it's the highest in the history of 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.720 the country in terms of the charge. Right, you have 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.000 a charge of first agree murder, second degree robbery. There's 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.800 no evidence I had never been arrested or convicted of 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.600 any crime, and I'm getting a twenty million dollar bail. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.280 Here's a guy sitting next to me in the same pod, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.360 in the same county with a first agree murder charge 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.920 and he is a repeat offender. In his bail for 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.120 pretty much the same charge was five hundred thousand dollars. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.400 Wow. So yeah, and I hadn't even thought about it. 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.720 But you're absolutely right. In fact, by setting that bail 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.320 of twenty million and that going out in the press 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.480 as it does, basically it's poisoning the jury pool because 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.079 it's saying, Hey, you know what, we can say that 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.000 are this guy to be extremely dangerous, so dangerous that 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.040 we're going to set the bail so high that even 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.400 if its family's rich and your family wasn't poor, but 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.640 they weren't rich. So even if the family is one 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.839 of the wealthiest families around they're still not gonna be 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:17.360 able to post it. 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:17.920 So it's a. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.840 Wink wink, like we're going to keep this guy around 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:26.480 because we know he's guilty. And that's absolutely really it'sugh 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.720 makes me sick. Okay, so you go to trial, you 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.199 by now had been in jail for how long? 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.800 Yeah, I've been in jail for about eighteen months at 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:39.959 that point a year and a half. Trial was actually 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.559 set and I don't think this is a coincidence. On 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.320 my twenty first birthday, it was Monday through Friday, and 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.120 my birthday for the twenty first birthday was Wednesday, So 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.760 I'll never never forget that. And by the way, I 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:53.840 want to mention county jail, and I think this is 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:55.880 overlooked a lot. I think it's really interesting for people 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.240 to hear. But when you're innocent until proven guilty and 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.280 you're in the county jail, it is far worse than 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.480 being in prison. Most guys I know, they're happy to 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.040 go to prison after being in the country jet. It 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.600 is a very very poor existence. My first year in 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.000 the county jail, I went outside, literally outside two times, 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.520 and that is innocent until proven Because I don't understand 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.480 how that can be, and I went outside every time 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.199 that I could. But you're literally sleep deprived. The lights 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.160 never go off, you never go outside, you have no 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.880 human contact with anyone outside of prison. So it's a 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.920 horrible existence. So for those eighteen months before you go 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.400 to trial, they're basically sucking the life out of you. 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.120 And then what you're seeing in trial is a shell 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.120 of a human being. So when you watch forty eight 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.440 Hours or Dayline or any other show and you see 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.160 these people sitting there on trial, I mean, they probably 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.839 look emaciated, they probably look strange, they probably act weird, 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.080 and that's because they've been in this horrific environment for 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.360 so long that I mean, they have no emotions left, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.680 they've spent them all, and they haven't been eating riot 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.480 they have no nutrition. So just take that into consideration 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.760 when you're looking at somebody who's going through this situation. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:08.920 You know, you're sitting in a courtroom full of these 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:10.480 people who are staring at you. You're in a fish 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.600 bowl and you're the only fish, and people are going 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.520 to do like this satanic fish or something. And not 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.040 to mention in the way you were treated the last 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:18.959 eighteen months. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.680 No, I'm glad you brought that up, Ryan, and when 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.080 you described that to me, And it's not like you're 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.480 comparing jail to a minimum security prison. You were in 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.840 a maximum security prison, right, And jails are chaotic, I mean, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.120 among other things. And this is something that's really so 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.280 horrible to think about. But they're never cleaned, right, They're 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.080 always occupied and they're never cleaned. So you're in a 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:45.520 extremely toxic, poisonous environment in so many different ways. And 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.360 you're in a pressure cooker, right because you were going 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:48.800 to sell with how many other guys. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.280 Eight guys, twenty four to seven and you know, yeah, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.920 you're right, it is a pressure cooker. I mean, you 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.200 have these people. Every single one of those people's lives 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:57.520 is on the line. They don't know what's going to 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.040 happen next. They don't know if they're going to go 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:00.560 to prison for the rest of the life. Some of 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.480 them don't know they're gonna get the death penalty. Some 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.800 might get out tomorrow. And so you have all these 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.680 different thoughts and feelings and emotions going on. You know, 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.920 people are losing their families or they can't see their kids, 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.960 whatever it might be. And you have that on top 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.720 of the fact that you can't eat right, you can't 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:20.080 get any exercise. Really, you can't be with loved ones. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.320 There's no outlet, right, The only outlet is towards another person, 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.200 and so people end up fighting and getting hurt. And 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:28.920 you know, you don't want to be in that situation. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.200 You don't want to be forced to fight somebody for survival. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.080 But that's what they make you do. That's what they 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.520 put you in a situation where there's no other options. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.440 And then when it happens, they want to charge you 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.080 with another crime, like you did something wrong. Put me 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.120 in the cell with my girlfriend for a year. We're gonna, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.160 you know, hate each other by the end of it, right, 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.360 You can't do that, and they'd put you in there 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.880 with these people who are violent criminals. You don't know 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.200 each other, you don't care about each other. Yet you 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.440 have to be there twenty four to seven with all 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.120 that going on, all those emotions, all those feelings, and 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.840 that loss of your liberty and privilege. So it is 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.480 a frightening place. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.600 The claustrophobic element of it alone, right, because you're never 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.000 getting out. You're not getting out of the cell, right, 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:12.800 I mean, what you've got to get out for a shower. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.840 No, Well, the thing is it's like a pod and 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.640 it's very small. It's smaller than a one story home, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.640 and the showers in there, and you have a TV 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.040 in there on a phone, and eight other guys, and 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:30.160 it is The claustrophobic feeling is so intense, because even 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:31.920 if even if you've been there for three months and 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.720 you start to feel like you know the guys and 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.960 you don't feel like you're in danger, that day you'll 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.280 wake up and you realize I can't get up and 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.240 walk out of this thing today. I can't get up 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.680 and walk out here tomorrow or next month or next year. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.280 Like I can't go anywhere but this little house. Like 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.920 I can't even step foot outside see the sunlight. I 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.200 can't look out a window because there are no windows, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.800 Like this is it. I can't do anything. I have 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.320 no freedom, I have no choices, I have no responsibility 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.960 because I can't even go work. If I want to work, 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:01.600 I can't go grab a book, but I want to 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:02.920 grab a But I can't do anything. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.080 There's no books in there. 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:08.760 There are some books, but they don't come by very often. Fortunately, 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:10.800 after a while I was able to get some books, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.879 my father was able to bring me some. But you know, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.479 they changed the policies and so for a while, they 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.880 took out all the legal books. You know, I thought, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:19.800 at least if I got to sit here at twenty 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.720 four seven, I'll be able to read legal books. It's 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.960 my constitutional right to be able to defend myself. But 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:25.679 they took out all the legal books. I couldn't even 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.120 read that. And you know, I'm here, I'm nineteen years old. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.000 I want to prove my innocence and fight my case, 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.040 and they don't even give you the resources to do that. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:34.520 And on top of everything else, you're going to the 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.639 bathroom on top of each other. Where do you sleep 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.680 and how do you change clothes? How does that even 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:39.400 work well? 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.720 And where I was at it was a violent felon tank, 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.879 So it has its benefits and its down sides. Of course, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.400 in many tanks it's just an open bay, so everybody's 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.960 out there together. And yeah, I mean, you just got 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.119 to get naked in front of people or whatever. You 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.240 poop in front of people, you pee in front of people, everything, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.240 and so that is one existence in a violent fell 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.280 in tank. They put you in your own cell because 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.760 they don't want people sleeping in an environment where there 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.280 are people who are accused of murder, right, so you 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.240 don't want to be asleep, and then some guy snaps 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:11.719 out and comes over there and tries to murder you. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.679 Like that's a liability, I suppose, So they give you 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.280 your own cell in the violent Fellon tank. That's why 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.800 there's eight people. There's eight cells. So that is the one, 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.360 I guess good thing about being in a violent Pealent tank. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.760 The bad thing is that they're violent felons, so it's 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.440 a lot more dangerous when those doors are open. Those 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.120 doors are open about eighteen hours a day. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.960 And you had reason to understand that the system was 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.800 not designed to work for justice and that as an 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.000 innocent man, you had a real chance of ending up 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.240 in prison for a long long time. So you devised 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.359 a workout program, right in order to be able to 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.199 defend yourself. And if you can't obviously see him on 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.760 the radio, but if you see Ryan now he is 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.800 he looks like a bodybuilder. So how did you do 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:03.200 that without any kind of access to gym equipment or 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.120 weights or anything else? And how did that work for you? 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.639 You know, it comes down to education, really That's what 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.400 I love about fitness now, is I see a lot 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.520 of people work out. I've been around, you know, I 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.040 was in an incubator with guys for a decade and 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:17.919 I could see what they were doing, and a lot 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.240 of people work really hard, but they never educate themselves 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.480 on what to do for themselves physically, and so, you know, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.080 that's why I developed this routine, is just understanding how 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.600 the body works. What's what are the best workouts that 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.919 are going to get you the largest gains in the 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:35.800 smallest amount of time, and then what do you have 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.040 to do nutritionally to supplement that? And so that's you know, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.360 I just started figuring it out reading books and everything. 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.120