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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 2: in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are

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Speaker 2: guilty when you see them on TV, because it may

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Speaker 2: just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today's guest is a friend of mine. He's

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Speaker 3: a remarkable human and an inspiration to everybody who knows him.

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Speaker 3: And I want to embarrass you, but without further ado,

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Speaker 3: let me introduce you Ryan Ferguson. At just nineteen years old,

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Speaker 3: Ryan Ferguson was wrongly convicted of murder. He served nearly

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Speaker 3: a decade in prison.

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Speaker 4: Ferguson was convicted for the brutal murder of beloved journalist

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Speaker 4: Kent Heidholt in two thousand and one. The crime scene

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Speaker 4: outside the newspaper where he worked littered with physical evidence

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Speaker 4: bloody footprints, fingerprints, and even hair, but none of it

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Speaker 4: matched Ryan. Again and again, he denied knowing anything about

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Speaker 4: the murder. Charles Erickson, a childhood friend of Ryan's, came

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Speaker 4: forward two years after the murder, claiming he had dreamlike

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Speaker 4: visions that he and Ryan committed the crime together. When

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Speaker 4: police led Ericson to believe Ferguson would testify against him,

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Speaker 4: Erickson said he felt pressure to confess to the murder,

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Speaker 4: thinking he'd otherwise face the death conalty, and a second witness,

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Speaker 4: janitor Jerry Trump, identified Ferguson as one of two men

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Speaker 4: he saw in the parking lot immediately after the murder.

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Speaker 4: In the years after that two thousand and five conviction,

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Speaker 4: both of those crucial prosecution witnesses recant in their testimony.

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Speaker 3: On his last appeal attempt, Ryan's conviction was overturned.

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Speaker 4: After a year and a half more behind Barns. Finally,

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Speaker 4: and at Pellet Court overturned that ruling, finding quote newly

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Speaker 4: discovered evidence clearly and convincingly establishes that he's actually innocent.

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Speaker 4: And then the Missouri Attorney General's office announced it will

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Speaker 4: not retry or pursue further action against Ryan Ferguson at

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Speaker 4: this time, meaning Ryan Ferguson was a free man.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a

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Speaker 5: pleasure to be on your podcast. I remember when you

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Speaker 5: when you launched it the launch party. Man, just being

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Speaker 5: there was amazing, And I want to say before we start,

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Speaker 5: just thank you so much for what you do for everyone,

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Speaker 5: including myself. You know, you were part of my case

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Speaker 5: before I got out, and uh, and that gave me

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Speaker 5: a lot of hope and I appreciate that. And then

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Speaker 5: you've been very supportive to myself and everyone that I

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Speaker 5: know in the innocence community since I've been out, and

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Speaker 5: it's just amazing to see what you do for everyone.

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Speaker 5: So thank you first and foremost, and let's get this

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Speaker 5: thing started.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, I don't know, I gotta take a breath

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Speaker 3: after that, but thank you for saying so I uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, I forget these things because you know, there's

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Speaker 3: just so much to do every day. Because this is

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Speaker 3: such a an epidemic in this country. You couldn't have

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Speaker 3: seen this coming a million miles away. We'll talk about that, right.

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Speaker 3: So you're you're from Missouri, right.

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Speaker 5: Yep, from Missouri. I was born born in Australia, raised

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Speaker 5: in Missouri.

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Speaker 3: So you grew up in Missouri. And what was that like?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you had you had a happy childhood.

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Speaker 5: I had a great childhood. Grew up in Columbia is

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Speaker 5: right in the middle of Missouri. University of Missouri, college town,

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Speaker 5: great town, a lot of culture, education, a lot to do,

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Speaker 5: and so for me, it was a town of opportunity.

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Speaker 5: I had great education. My parents, they took me all

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Speaker 5: over the world. They traveled with me constantly, and I

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Speaker 5: got to learn a lot about people from being in

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Speaker 5: that town and from traveling and everything else. So my

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Speaker 5: childhood couldn't have been any better.

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Speaker 3: You had a close family, very close family.

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Speaker 5: We were all together my whole life, and you know,

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Speaker 5: it was it was like the picture book family, right.

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Speaker 5: You know, mom, dad's sister. We had a little dog,

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Speaker 5: and you know, just a little middle class existence and

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Speaker 5: everyone was happy, everything, Everything was going good. And I

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Speaker 5: played sports in high school and had a lot of

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Speaker 5: friends and everything, and then went to college, and at

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Speaker 5: that point everything was still very normal.

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Speaker 3: Everything was very normal until everything went completely haywire. And

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Speaker 3: you hadn't had any experience with police or arrests or

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Speaker 3: authority in any way to this point, right.

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Speaker 5: Well, I had never been accused of any crimes, for

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Speaker 5: sure when I was in high school. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: a college town, so of course there's gonna be police

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Speaker 5: that show up at parties, people get mips and things

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Speaker 5: of that nature. No one that I knew had ever

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Speaker 5: been arrested for anything that would have put them in jail.

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Speaker 5: I had never met anyone that had spent the night

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Speaker 5: in jail. You know, some kids got in trouble for

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Speaker 5: small things like like in most towns, But the fact

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Speaker 5: of being arrested for a real crime was it didn't

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Speaker 5: even exist in my world.

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Speaker 3: I was so moved and angry and just upset in general.

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Speaker 3: After seeing the forty eight hours piece, which was the

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Speaker 3: first exposure I ever had to your case, some of

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Speaker 3: the things that stuck out from me about that piece

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Speaker 3: were the idea that this was a cold case right.

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Speaker 3: It was the murder of a sports reporter and he

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Speaker 3: had been beaten to death outside of his car.

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Speaker 5: I guess right, yeah, outside of his work.

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Speaker 3: And two and a half years later, no leads, nothing

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Speaker 3: going on. Right. One of the local TV stations ran

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Speaker 3: one of those things that they run time to time

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Speaker 3: where they had like a composite sketch. Right, did you

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Speaker 3: even know about this murder when it happened? Was it

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Speaker 3: big news in the area.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a small town. There's about one hundred thousand people.

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Speaker 5: I do recall hearing about it. You know, anything that

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Speaker 5: happens in that town, like a murder, you hear about

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Speaker 5: it was its big news because they don't happen that often.

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Speaker 5: That was the extent of my knowledge on you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean young in high school and it's like, whoa,

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Speaker 5: somebody was murdered on howe any night. That's kind of creepy.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to that. Because the sports reporter,

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Speaker 3: ken Heidholt was murdered in a very brutal manner. He

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Speaker 3: was beaten to death with a tire iron or something

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Speaker 3: like that. I don't even know if they even know

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Speaker 3: to this day, but it was a heavy metal object.

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Speaker 3: Of some sort. And when that Crimestoppers piece ran, Charles

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Speaker 3: Rickson was affected by it in some way.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: He saw this on TV. He was with his friends

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Speaker 3: and he had some sort of a vision or something

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Speaker 3: came over him which made him say to his friends, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean I kind of look like that guy.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it could have been if I could

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Speaker 3: have been involved in so or some crazy thing like that.

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Speaker 3: And then one of the friends called the cops.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: And this is an interesting thing about your case, Ryan,

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Speaker 3: because we've covered false confessions on this show, and false

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Speaker 3: confessions are so terribly troubling. In your case, you were

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Speaker 3: the victim of false confession, but you didn't confess. That's

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Speaker 3: what's crazy about this, Right, You were implicated because somebody

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Speaker 3: else who also didn't commit the crime, actually thought that

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Speaker 3: maybe he did for some reason. And the brain is

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Speaker 3: a strange thing. It's the memory. Who knows what came

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Speaker 3: over him?

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Speaker 5: Right. And one of the quotes that always stuck out

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Speaker 5: to me is something that Charles ericson my co defendant,

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Speaker 5: the person who had these images, who ultimately I testified

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Speaker 5: against me. Something that he said, and this is verbatim.

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Speaker 5: He says, if I did it, Ryan must have been

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Speaker 5: with me. And based on that, I mean, that is

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Speaker 5: what starts this whole thing. Based on that, I lost

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Speaker 5: ten years of my life. I was put into prison

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Speaker 5: for a crime I had nothing to do with.

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Speaker 3: Was there any physical evidence of any kind connecting to

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Speaker 3: this case.

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Speaker 5: There was no physical evidence connecting me or Charles Erickson.

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Speaker 5: But the important fact is there is a lot of

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Speaker 5: physical evidence there. You know, there's a bloody footprint, there's

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Speaker 5: a hair in the victim's hand, there's a paper with

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Speaker 5: a palm print. There are things that, even to this day,

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Speaker 5: could be tested to determine guilt of another individual. And

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Speaker 5: the police have chosen not to look into those things.

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Speaker 5: And here's what's really really frustrating is when I got out,

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Speaker 5: the public was enraged. They were frustrated with what the

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Speaker 5: police had done, and they said, we want to know

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Speaker 5: what really happened in this case, because clearly it wasn't Ryan,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't Ericson, the kid who is still to this

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Speaker 5: day in prison. And so the police said, we're gonna

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Speaker 5: we're gonna open this case. We're going to look back

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Speaker 5: into it, We're going to see what happened here. Well,

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Speaker 5: three months later, you know, in a very low key way.

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Speaker 5: They're just kind of like, well, you know, we got

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Speaker 5: somebody in prison for it right now, so we're not

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Speaker 5: gonna we're not gonna investigate it. That's not gonna happen, right.

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Speaker 3: So the net effect if you're a resident of Columbia

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Speaker 3: or Missouri or the United States, because we don't know

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Speaker 3: where this guy is, this guy who is a dangerous,

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Speaker 3: violent killer is out there walking amongst us. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it is an outrage that they have this evidence and

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Speaker 3: they won't test it. It even for me, like, my head's going,

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Speaker 3: what first of all, and let's talk about this right jail,

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Speaker 3: because this is something that people don't focus on enough.

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Speaker 3: You were in jail for a long time awaiting trial.

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Speaker 3: He set bail at twenty million dollars, right.

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Speaker 5: Twenty million dollar? Yeah, it was it was a you know,

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Speaker 5: that is a in my mind, that's how publicity's the reality.

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Speaker 5: The way our legal system works is if you're arrested

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Speaker 5: for a very serious crime, like a murder, they can

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Speaker 5: choose not to give you a bail and they do

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Speaker 5: that often, or they can give you a million dollar

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Speaker 5: bail whatever. Right bail is meant so that you should

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Speaker 5: have the opportunity to raise those funds and get out

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Speaker 5: so you can fight your case because you have not

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Speaker 5: been proven guilty. At that point, I had no bail

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Speaker 5: for eight months. I went into a bail hearing and

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Speaker 5: the judge out of nowhere says twenty million dollars. And

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Speaker 5: so that is a different thing than saying no bail.

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Speaker 5: That is a political statement. That is her saying that

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Speaker 5: I endorse this case as a judge, and they're supposed

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Speaker 5: to be independent. I endorse this case. I'm with the prosecutor,

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Speaker 5: and we're going to take this kid and put him

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Speaker 5: in prison for the rest of his life. And that

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Speaker 5: is not something a judge should do. Judge Ellen Roper

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Speaker 5: made a huge mistake there. I think she should be

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Speaker 5: health accountable for that. And that is the politics we

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Speaker 5: see with our criminal legal system in these people's lives,

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Speaker 5: you know, I mean, this is my life and that

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Speaker 5: judge is playing a game with it. And that is

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Speaker 5: incredibly scary to see, especially at the age of nineteen

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Speaker 5: or twenty, and you're just like, how is this our

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Speaker 5: legal system? How is this innocent until proven guilty?

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Speaker 3: Because it's not so Yeah, and I hadn't even thought

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Speaker 3: about that, because to my knowledge, your bail was the

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Speaker 3: highest bail in the history of the state of Missouri.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I think it's the highest in the history of

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Speaker 5: the country in terms of the charge. Right, you have

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Speaker 5: a charge of first agree murder, second degree robbery. There's

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Speaker 5: no evidence I had never been arrested or convicted of

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Speaker 5: any crime, and I'm getting a twenty million dollar bail.

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Speaker 5: Here's a guy sitting next to me in the same pod,

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Speaker 5: in the same county with a first agree murder charge

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Speaker 5: and he is a repeat offender. In his bail for

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Speaker 5: pretty much the same charge was five hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: Wow. So yeah, and I hadn't even thought about it.

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Speaker 3: But you're absolutely right. In fact, by setting that bail

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Speaker 3: of twenty million and that going out in the press

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Speaker 3: as it does, basically it's poisoning the jury pool because

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Speaker 3: it's saying, Hey, you know what, we can say that

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Speaker 3: are this guy to be extremely dangerous, so dangerous that

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Speaker 3: we're going to set the bail so high that even

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Speaker 3: if its family's rich and your family wasn't poor, but

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Speaker 3: they weren't rich. So even if the family is one

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Speaker 3: of the wealthiest families around they're still not gonna be

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Speaker 3: able to post it.

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Speaker 5: So it's a.

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Speaker 3: Wink wink, like we're going to keep this guy around

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Speaker 3: because we know he's guilty. And that's absolutely really it'sugh

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Speaker 3: makes me sick. Okay, so you go to trial, you

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Speaker 3: by now had been in jail for how long?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been in jail for about eighteen months at

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Speaker 5: that point a year and a half. Trial was actually

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Speaker 5: set and I don't think this is a coincidence. On

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Speaker 5: my twenty first birthday, it was Monday through Friday, and

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Speaker 5: my birthday for the twenty first birthday was Wednesday, So

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Speaker 5: I'll never never forget that. And by the way, I

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Speaker 5: want to mention county jail, and I think this is

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Speaker 5: overlooked a lot. I think it's really interesting for people

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Speaker 5: to hear. But when you're innocent until proven guilty and

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Speaker 5: you're in the county jail, it is far worse than

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Speaker 5: being in prison. Most guys I know, they're happy to

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Speaker 5: go to prison after being in the country jet. It

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Speaker 5: is a very very poor existence. My first year in

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Speaker 5: the county jail, I went outside, literally outside two times,

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Speaker 5: and that is innocent until proven Because I don't understand

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Speaker 5: how that can be, and I went outside every time

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Speaker 5: that I could. But you're literally sleep deprived. The lights

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Speaker 5: never go off, you never go outside, you have no

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Speaker 5: human contact with anyone outside of prison. So it's a

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Speaker 5: horrible existence. So for those eighteen months before you go

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Speaker 5: to trial, they're basically sucking the life out of you.

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Speaker 5: And then what you're seeing in trial is a shell

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Speaker 5: of a human being. So when you watch forty eight

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Speaker 5: Hours or Dayline or any other show and you see

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Speaker 5: these people sitting there on trial, I mean, they probably

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Speaker 5: look emaciated, they probably look strange, they probably act weird,

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Speaker 5: and that's because they've been in this horrific environment for

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Speaker 5: so long that I mean, they have no emotions left,

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Speaker 5: they've spent them all, and they haven't been eating riot

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Speaker 5: they have no nutrition. So just take that into consideration

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Speaker 5: when you're looking at somebody who's going through this situation.

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Speaker 5: You know, you're sitting in a courtroom full of these

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Speaker 5: people who are staring at you. You're in a fish

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Speaker 5: bowl and you're the only fish, and people are going

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Speaker 5: to do like this satanic fish or something. And not

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Speaker 5: to mention in the way you were treated the last

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Speaker 5: eighteen months.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm glad you brought that up, Ryan, and when

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Speaker 3: you described that to me, And it's not like you're

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Speaker 3: comparing jail to a minimum security prison. You were in

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Speaker 3: a maximum security prison, right, And jails are chaotic, I mean,

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Speaker 3: among other things. And this is something that's really so

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Speaker 3: horrible to think about. But they're never cleaned, right, They're

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Speaker 3: always occupied and they're never cleaned. So you're in a

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Speaker 3: extremely toxic, poisonous environment in so many different ways. And

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Speaker 3: you're in a pressure cooker, right because you were going

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Speaker 3: to sell with how many other guys.

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Speaker 5: Eight guys, twenty four to seven and you know, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you're right, it is a pressure cooker. I mean, you

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Speaker 5: have these people. Every single one of those people's lives

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Speaker 5: is on the line. They don't know what's going to

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Speaker 5: happen next. They don't know if they're going to go

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Speaker 5: to prison for the rest of the life. Some of

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Speaker 5: them don't know they're gonna get the death penalty. Some

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Speaker 5: might get out tomorrow. And so you have all these

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Speaker 5: different thoughts and feelings and emotions going on. You know,

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Speaker 5: people are losing their families or they can't see their kids,

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Speaker 5: whatever it might be. And you have that on top

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Speaker 5: of the fact that you can't eat right, you can't

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Speaker 5: get any exercise. Really, you can't be with loved ones.

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Speaker 5: There's no outlet, right, The only outlet is towards another person,

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Speaker 5: and so people end up fighting and getting hurt. And

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Speaker 5: you know, you don't want to be in that situation.

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Speaker 5: You don't want to be forced to fight somebody for survival.

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Speaker 5: But that's what they make you do. That's what they

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Speaker 5: put you in a situation where there's no other options.

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Speaker 5: And then when it happens, they want to charge you

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Speaker 5: with another crime, like you did something wrong. Put me

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Speaker 5: in the cell with my girlfriend for a year. We're gonna,

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Speaker 5: you know, hate each other by the end of it, right,

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Speaker 5: You can't do that, and they'd put you in there

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Speaker 5: with these people who are violent criminals. You don't know

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Speaker 5: each other, you don't care about each other. Yet you

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Speaker 5: have to be there twenty four to seven with all

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Speaker 5: that going on, all those emotions, all those feelings, and

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Speaker 5: that loss of your liberty and privilege. So it is

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Speaker 5: a frightening place.

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Speaker 3: The claustrophobic element of it alone, right, because you're never

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Speaker 3: getting out. You're not getting out of the cell, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, what you've got to get out for a shower.

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Speaker 5: No, Well, the thing is it's like a pod and

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Speaker 5: it's very small. It's smaller than a one story home,

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Speaker 5: and the showers in there, and you have a TV

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Speaker 5: in there on a phone, and eight other guys, and

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Speaker 5: it is The claustrophobic feeling is so intense, because even

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Speaker 5: if even if you've been there for three months and

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Speaker 5: you start to feel like you know the guys and

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Speaker 5: you don't feel like you're in danger, that day you'll

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Speaker 5: wake up and you realize I can't get up and

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Speaker 5: walk out of this thing today. I can't get up

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Speaker 5: and walk out here tomorrow or next month or next year.

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Speaker 5: Like I can't go anywhere but this little house. Like

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Speaker 5: I can't even step foot outside see the sunlight. I

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Speaker 5: can't look out a window because there are no windows,

337
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Speaker 5: Like this is it. I can't do anything. I have

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Speaker 5: no freedom, I have no choices, I have no responsibility

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Speaker 5: because I can't even go work. If I want to work,

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Speaker 5: I can't go grab a book, but I want to

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Speaker 5: grab a But I can't do anything.

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Speaker 3: There's no books in there.

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Speaker 5: There are some books, but they don't come by very often. Fortunately,

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Speaker 5: after a while I was able to get some books,

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Speaker 5: my father was able to bring me some. But you know,

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Speaker 5: they changed the policies and so for a while, they

347
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Speaker 5: took out all the legal books. You know, I thought,

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Speaker 5: at least if I got to sit here at twenty

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Speaker 5: four seven, I'll be able to read legal books. It's

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Speaker 5: my constitutional right to be able to defend myself. But

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Speaker 5: they took out all the legal books. I couldn't even

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Speaker 5: read that. And you know, I'm here, I'm nineteen years old.

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Speaker 5: I want to prove my innocence and fight my case,

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Speaker 5: and they don't even give you the resources to do that.

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Speaker 3: And on top of everything else, you're going to the

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Speaker 3: bathroom on top of each other. Where do you sleep

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Speaker 3: and how do you change clothes? How does that even

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Speaker 3: work well?

359
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Speaker 5: And where I was at it was a violent felon tank,

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Speaker 5: So it has its benefits and its down sides. Of course,

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Speaker 5: in many tanks it's just an open bay, so everybody's

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Speaker 5: out there together. And yeah, I mean, you just got

363
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Speaker 5: to get naked in front of people or whatever. You

364
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 5: poop in front of people, you pee in front of people, everything,

365
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Speaker 5: and so that is one existence in a violent fell

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Speaker 5: in tank. They put you in your own cell because

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Speaker 5: they don't want people sleeping in an environment where there

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Speaker 5: are people who are accused of murder, right, so you

369
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Speaker 5: don't want to be asleep, and then some guy snaps

370
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Speaker 5: out and comes over there and tries to murder you.

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Speaker 5: Like that's a liability, I suppose, So they give you

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Speaker 5: your own cell in the violent Fellon tank. That's why

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Speaker 5: there's eight people. There's eight cells. So that is the one,

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Speaker 5: I guess good thing about being in a violent Pealent tank.

375
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Speaker 5: The bad thing is that they're violent felons, so it's

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Speaker 5: a lot more dangerous when those doors are open. Those

377
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Speaker 5: doors are open about eighteen hours a day.

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Speaker 3: And you had reason to understand that the system was

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00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 3: not designed to work for justice and that as an

380
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Speaker 3: innocent man, you had a real chance of ending up

381
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Speaker 3: in prison for a long long time. So you devised

382
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Speaker 3: a workout program, right in order to be able to

383
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Speaker 3: defend yourself. And if you can't obviously see him on

384
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Speaker 3: the radio, but if you see Ryan now he is

385
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Speaker 3: he looks like a bodybuilder. So how did you do

386
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 3: that without any kind of access to gym equipment or

387
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 3: weights or anything else? And how did that work for you?

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Speaker 5: You know, it comes down to education, really That's what

389
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Speaker 5: I love about fitness now, is I see a lot

390
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 5: of people work out. I've been around, you know, I

391
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 5: was in an incubator with guys for a decade and

392
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Speaker 5: I could see what they were doing, and a lot

393
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Speaker 5: of people work really hard, but they never educate themselves

394
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Speaker 5: on what to do for themselves physically, and so, you know,

395
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Speaker 5: that's why I developed this routine, is just understanding how

396
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 5: the body works. What's what are the best workouts that

397
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,919
Speaker 5: are going to get you the largest gains in the

398
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Speaker 5: smallest amount of time, and then what do you have

399
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 5: to do nutritionally to supplement that? And so that's you know,

400
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Speaker 5: I just started figuring it out reading books and everything.

401
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 5: When you're in an environment like prison and you have

402
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 5: only so many outlets, I mean, really, the only thing

403
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 5: you possess are your mind in your body. Nothing else

404
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 5: is yours. You don't have any other really choices or anything.

405
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Speaker 5: So I educated myself daily and I worked out daily

406
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 5: because all I had was myself, and I worked on

407
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,639
Speaker 5: myself every day, and I think that taught me a

408
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 5: valuable lesson. I think we can all do that no

409
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 5: matter where we're at in life. It's very important.

410
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Speaker 3: Well, you had a very strong motivation, and you were

411
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 3: really thinking ahead because of the fact that you knew

412
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Speaker 3: that if you ended up in a maxim security prison,

413
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Speaker 3: there were going to be times when you're going to

414
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Speaker 3: have to defend yourself or even inside this jail. So

415
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: you designed a program to make yourself strong for that eventuality.

416
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Speaker 3: And I know you talked to me about punching the walls, like,

417
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Speaker 3: how does that work?

418
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Speaker 5: Right? So I did skip over the part about why

419
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,239
Speaker 5: why I was working on so hard, and it is

420
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Speaker 5: it's my why was survival and that is a very

421
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,479
Speaker 5: strong motivator and that's why I would work out and

422
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,159
Speaker 5: eventually ended up punching walls. So the walls are concrete

423
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Speaker 5: and you know, they don't move. They're not soft by

424
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Speaker 5: any means. But I saw people fight, and I saw

425
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 5: people break their fists, and if you break your fist,

426
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 5: you're not gonna be able to fight. And you know,

427
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 5: I did everything I could to ensure my existence because

428
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 5: it is scary what you see with our legal system

429
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 5: and the fact that if you're arrested, your life is

430
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,360
Speaker 5: pretty much over at that point, you have a very

431
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 5: small chance of winning, regardless of the facts. I mean,

432
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 5: everything stacked against you. So I didn't want to end

433
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 5: up in a fight to save my own life, to

434
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 5: protect myself and not be able to function. And so

435
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 5: I realized, you know, you had to have strong hands.

436
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 5: You have to be able to take a hit, and

437
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 5: you have to be able to give a hit and

438
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 5: not break down. And so I would start lightly hitting

439
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 5: the walls, the concrete walls, and I would hit them

440
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 5: until you know, my knuckles got bloody and everything, and

441
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 5: then i'd stop for that day, and while they're still

442
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 5: trying to heal, I would continue hitting the walls. And

443
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 5: I ended up developing a very very strong fist that

444
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 5: I feel I could probably last through anything. And the

445
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 5: only reason I did that is because I didn't want

446
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 5: to be victimized while I was in prison for a

447
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 5: crime I didn't commit. And that's it, really, I mean,

448
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 5: it's it's an odd feeling knowing that your whole being

449
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 5: is built around not becoming a victim. But that's what

450
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 5: it was, man, that's survival in prison. You gotta do

451
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 5: what you gotta do to protect yourself and any and

452
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 5: every way that you can find.

453
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 3: So the trial comes Ryan and you've been caged for

454
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 3: eighteen months, in the most extreme circumstances. You come to

455
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 3: trial and then you're forced to watch your co defendant

456
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: get up there, Charles Erickson, and tell a story that

457
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 3: has no relationship to reality or the truth, and ultimately

458
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 3: you're convicted. I can't even fathom what that moment must

459
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 3: have been like. But it's not too painful to go

460
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 3: back there.

461
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 5: That is, without it out in my thirty three years

462
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 5: of life, the worst week of my entire life, kind

463
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 5: of Jael's horrible. Prison's bad, but when you're in trial,

464
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 5: there's nothing worse. You're basically naked in front of the world. Right,

465
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 5: I had no secrets, I have no Everything that I

466
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 5: am is out in front of people. And then they

467
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 5: take that and they add lies on top of it,

468
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 5: and they're accusing you of something that you didn't do

469
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 5: that you have no knowledge of, and you know, every

470
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 5: media source that could have been there was there. And

471
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 5: the courtroom is completely full, and these people are looking

472
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 5: at you like you're some kind of animal, right, and

473
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 5: you're trying to be respectful of the court. You're just

474
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 5: trying to sit there and be quiet. And I remember

475
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 5: I would turn around and, you know, wave to my

476
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 5: mom during a recess, you know, and I would smile

477
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 5: because I saw my mom, like, hey, how you doing, Mom,

478
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 5: Like I'm glad you're doing okay, and smile because I'm

479
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: doing okay. So let's, you know, get through this. And

480
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 5: then me would go out and say, look at this

481
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 5: cocky piece of shit. You know, he's just like you

482
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 5: don't care about the Cordies and they're like smiling and

483
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 5: way of being at his fans and stuff. It's like,

484
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 5: you don't have fans. There's no such thing as a fan.

485
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 5: You are being accused of a crime you didn't commit.

486
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 5: You're fighting for your life, and you're saying hi to

487
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 5: your family. And then even then the media takes liberty

488
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 5: with that, and it's it's insane and it is horrific

489
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 5: to deal with that component of it. But it's even

490
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 5: worse knowing that the police know you're innocent, the prosecutor

491
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 5: knows you're innocent, the judge knows you're innocent, and yet

492
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 5: they're allowing this debacle to go on and allowing these

493
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 5: people to get on the stand and tell what they

494
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 5: know are lies. And I get why some of these

495
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 5: people lied. It's self preservation, because you know, they get

496
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 5: a person out of prison and they say, you know,

497
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 5: you know, it'd be nice if you said these things,

498
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 5: it would be really helpful. What's the implication is if

499
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 5: you don't say these things, then we're going to help

500
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 5: you get back into prison. Right, And so they're doing

501
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 5: for their own existence. But there's no reason the police

502
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 5: of the prosecutor should be doing these things to people, right,

503
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 5: They're they're manipulating and taking advantage of these people and uh,

504
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 5: and they're doing it to the end to take another

505
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 5: human being's life. And so it's you lose all faith

506
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 5: in humanity, you lose all hope and humanity. And I

507
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 5: mean that was the turning point for me. I fundamentally

508
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 5: hated people outside of my family. I pretty much just

509
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 5: hated human existence to human race for a good three

510
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 5: or four years.

511
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 3: And I can understand that. I mean, like you said,

512
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 3: the people that are supposed to be paid to help you,

513
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: or the people are supposed to be there to help

514
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 3: the victim and the family, the victim and society and

515
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 3: all of them letting down everyone for their own selfish.

516
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 5: Are the ones who are perpetuating this offense. And that's

517
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 5: it is. You will never I still don't understand it.

518
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 5: You know, people will look at my case and they're like,

519
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 5: we didn't realize this can happen. Looking at you, realize

520
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 5: that this could happen to us. And I think so

521
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 5: many people want to compartmentalize that, right. They want to say, oh,

522
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 5: this is happening, but that will never happen to me,

523
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 5: that will never happen to my family or whatever. But

524
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 5: the reality is that it doesn't matter what you look like,

525
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 5: where you come from, how you act, this could happen

526
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 5: to you. This is a subject. This is an issue

527
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 5: that does affect us, all right. I mean it affects

528
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 5: us economically, it affects our society, it affects everything. And

529
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 5: it is happening disproportionately to young black men, poor people,

530
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 5: even if you're poor and white, whatever might be. The

531
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 5: fact is, though, that this is happening more to people

532
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 5: who don't look like me. And it's sad that for

533
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: a lot of our society to stand up and say, hey,

534
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 5: this is wrong, it has to be a young white

535
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 5: kid because the reality is this is happening to so

536
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 5: many people that are going unnoticed, and I think that

537
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 5: needs to be discussed and we need to talk about

538
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 5: that there are a lot of issues with raising this

539
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 5: country obviously, and so hopefully that will change. Hopefully, you know,

540
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 5: wromful commisciers will stop in general, but will acknowledge the

541
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 5: fact that, hey, I mean, this has happening all over

542
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 5: the place, but primarily to these young black men, and

543
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 5: that really has to stop, and it is really tearing

544
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 5: apart communities.

545
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's all the effects are terrible. It's

546
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: an issue, as you said, that affects everybody in so

547
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: many different ways. And again you're right, it's a sensitive topic.

548
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a sad commentary on our society. But

549
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 3: it's a fact, and it's one of the reasons why

550
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 3: I think it's so important that you've been out there

551
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: doing what you've been doing to spread the word. So

552
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 3: you were sentenced to what.

553
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 5: I was sentenced to forty years. Yeah, so in trial

554
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 5: you get to see that it's not going well. You

555
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 5: have a person sitting there saying something that isn't true,

556
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 5: being egged on and led by the prosecution, and so

557
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 5: then you get convicted. And before I was sentenced, you

558
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 5: have a sentencing hearing and you have the opportunity to speak.

559
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 5: The first time I had the opportunity to speak. This

560
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 5: whole entire time from March tenth, two thousand and four

561
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 5: to two years later, had I never done anything. I

562
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 5: was arrested, I never said anything that implicated me or anything.

563
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 5: All the facts proved my innocence. I never had the

564
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 5: opportunity to speak to the public or anything. So I'm

565
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 5: basically just being like I jumped in the stream or

566
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 5: I got pushed in the stream, basically, and then have

567
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 5: been going down current this whole time. So two years later,

568
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 5: I have the first opportunity to actually speak publicly, right,

569
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 5: and I get to speak to the judge at the

570
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 5: sentencing hearing after I've already been convicted. I'm and I'm

571
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 5: telling her, I hope you can see the facts. I mean,

572
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: the facts are blatantly clear. Please look at those. Please

573
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 5: be unbiased. This is the same judge that gave me

574
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 5: a twenty million dollars bail, and you know, give me

575
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 5: a new trial at the very least, because I will

576
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 5: prove my innocence. You'll see that I'm innocent or whatever.

577
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 5: The whole time I'm talking, she didn't even look at me,

578
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 5: didn't pay anytention, just like I wasn't even there and

579
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 5: I'm like, this is my whole entire life, and I

580
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 5: have one opportunity to speak and to be heard by

581
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 5: this court. You know, I've respected the court and that

582
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 5: you respect me the same. The one opportunity I had.

583
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 5: She wouldn't even look at me. She didn't listen to

584
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 5: a word I'm saying, and then she just did what

585
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 5: she did forty years see you later. And it was

586
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 5: just one of the most disgusting things that I've experienced

587
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: in my whole entire life. And is by this judge

588
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 5: who were supposed to, you know, hold in high respect

589
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 5: and it's supposed to be a pillar of our community.

590
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 5: Is a horrible person. It's a horrible person who has

591
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 5: no motivation to do what's right for the society that

592
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 5: she lives in. And it's disgusting. And even now, you

593
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 5: know she she's still you know, she lives in like

594
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 5: a million dollar house or something, and she's enjoying a

595
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 5: great life and uh, and she's just this person who

596
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 5: has destroyed lives. And there are many great judges, don't

597
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 5: get me wrong, but the fact that that person can

598
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 5: sit up there and be esteemed or they're not even

599
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 5: doing their job, it is Ah, it's sickening.

600
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: I'm u. The idea that she would be shuffling papers

601
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: or doing whatever she felt was more important than forty

602
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 3: years of your life at that particular time after everything

603
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: you've been through is just yeah, that's hard to process.

604
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 3: It just takes a person who's like just so completely

605
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: fucking bankrupt, right, so morally devoid of anything, and I

606
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: don't get it. Wow, So you end up going to

607
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: maximum security prison and you could put in a SELLI

608
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 3: have a sell mate.

609
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 5: Right, So it's difficult not to go on and on

610
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 5: because there are so many It's ten years of your life, right.

611
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 5: So my first seally, when I go into prison, you know,

612
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 5: I mean prison at a young age. I'm twenty one,

613
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 5: I'm thinking, you know this is I'm going straight into hell.

614
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 5: Like I'm basically just jumping feet first into hell. I

615
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 5: got no no ifans or butts about it, no no choice,

616
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 5: and so I'm scared. There's no doubt about it. I'm

617
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 5: very afraid at this point. And I go into the

618
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: room and he's not in there. Everybody's out at rec

619
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 5: or whatever. And then an hour later, this huge guy

620
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 5: comes in and he's completely covered in tattoos. But it's

621
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 5: really interesting how the tattoos are laid out, like half

622
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 5: of his body are demonic tattoos and the other half

623
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 5: are angelic tattoos. And I'm like, what the hell is

624
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 5: going on here? Right? And so he gets to talk

625
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 5: and I realize his face is completely messed up and

626
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 5: the demonic side had been shot with a shotgun and

627
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 5: basically distorted his face and the upper part of his

628
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 5: body's shoulder and whatnot. And so later on we get

629
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 5: to talking and he's like, basically, you know, he was

630
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 5: robbing a dope house and he got shot on the

631
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 5: demonic side because that was like God telling him that

632
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 5: he should be good or whatever. Well, it turns out

633
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 5: this guy is essentially bipolar, and he definitely wasn't good

634
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 5: at any point, and he was probably the most frightening

635
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 5: individual I came across in prison, especially as a first selly.

636
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 5: But it's like, there were these imaginary lines in the

637
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: cell and imagine like you're in this little eight by

638
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 5: eight foot box. Imagine being in your bathroom with somebody

639
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 5: who's twice your size and insane, like literally insane, who's

640
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 5: known to be violent, known to have been arrested multiple

641
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 5: times and spend a lot of time in the hole,

642
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 5: and he draws these imaginary line So if you put

643
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 5: your toe over this line that you don't even know exist,

644
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 5: then a fight would ensue. And if a fight ensues,

645
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 5: there's nowhere to go. You can't run, you can't beat them,

646
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 5: you can't call for help because they're in another room.

647
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 5: So basically, I'm tiptoeing around for the first three months

648
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 5: of my time in prison, and it's just like a

649
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 5: ticking time mom. I know that if I'm there long enough,

650
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 5: this guy will kill me. And that's how I had

651
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 5: to live for the first three or four months of

652
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 5: my prison experience. And it was very bad, and we

653
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 5: got into it quite a few times, and you know,

654
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 5: and you're just trying to be as quiet and peaceful

655
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 5: as you can, but nothing you do is right. So, yeah,

656
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 5: I wish I could bring you into the mental anguish

657
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 5: that exists, because although I was able to avoid being

658
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 5: stabbed or hit by this individual, the mental anguish that

659
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 5: you experienced from knowing that that could happen at any

660
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 5: second for any reason, is it'll aid you like two

661
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 5: years in one month. It's insane, it's horrible.

662
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: Did you have any dialogue with him. Did you have

663
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: any light moments at all? Was there, you know, was

664
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: there any kind of camaraderie with this There was, yeah, man, And.

665
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 5: That's't so weird about it. Like you you're around these

666
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 5: people and some of them are just horrible, horrible human beings,

667
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 5: but you know, it's life and you get to know

668
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 5: them or whatever. And so I didn't have a TV

669
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 5: yet or I might have just gotten I can't remember,

670
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 5: and the Notebook came on, and uh. And so we're

671
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 5: watching the Notebook at the same time. And the Notebook

672
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 5: comes to a conclusion and we're not really talking during

673
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 5: it or anything like that. It ends, and I'm like,

674
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 5: I'm basically about to cry, you know, I'm like trying

675
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 5: to hold back tears. I'm like, oh my god, I'm

676
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 5: in this cell with this maniac, and the freaking great

677
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 5: movies got me, you know. It's like, you know, I

678
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 5: miss society and females and everything. Of course, and then

679
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 5: I can't talk. And then I realized this guy is

680
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 5: sniffling up there. He's up there crying, and I'm like,

681
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 5: what's up in and and he's like, man, that was

682
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 5: a good movie, you know, And uh, and he's like

683
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 5: I'm crying or whatever, and I'm like, I'm about to

684
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 5: do And so that was just like this weird, very

685
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 5: odd experience, and we like we were laughing about it

686
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 5: or whatever, and we're surprised that impacted us both. But

687
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 5: I mean it was very up and down. It was

688
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 5: like that, you know. I mean, that was one good moment.

689
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 5: There are a million bad moments. And then when I left,

690
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 5: I went over to the yard, the guy gave me

691
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: a hug. He's like, oh man, I'm gonna miss you.

692
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna miss you, dude. But all right, you know,

693
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 5: it's just that's that's a lot of people in there.

694
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 5: There are some really good people. I still talk to

695
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 5: some people in prison, but there are some people that

696
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 5: you'll just never understand that are insane. They'll hug you

697
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 5: one minute and stab you the next. So it's just

698
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 5: you gotta be on your p's and q's per se.

699
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: So you were in there for nine and a half years.

700
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: You had many many appeals denied. How many appeals did

701
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 3: you have, I.

702
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 5: Mean at least six or seven primary appeals, and then

703
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 5: you know they they go up through the court, so

704
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 5: you have like the initial court filing, and then you

705
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 5: have the appellate court, and then it goes to the

706
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 5: Supreme Court, which never hears it. And so it's just

707
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 5: this like basic routine that you get in. You know,

708
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 5: you file appeal and then it wait six months and

709
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 5: then they'll hear it, and then they wait another six months,

710
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 5: and then they deny it, and then wait another six

711
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 5: months and it goes to another court and they'll hear it,

712
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 5: and then they wait another six months. So it's like

713
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 5: every appeal you file, you know, I was like, oh,

714
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 5: it'll be another year, year and a half of my

715
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 5: life because they're not going to listen to this. These

716
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 5: courts that they're going to, you know which ones will

717
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 5: will be biased and you know which ones won't. So

718
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 5: an appeal is filed and you automatically know, well, the

719
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 5: next year and a half of my life is not

720
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 5: going to happen. So I'm just gonna sit back and

721
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 5: hope you get out of that court and back into

722
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 5: one that actually cares about justice.

723
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: At some point, the only other witness against you besides

724
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: your co defendant who falsely confessed and then falsely implicated

725
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: you and told a story that didn't make any sense,

726
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 3: and kept changing it and was obviously anything but incredible

727
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: witness against you. The only other witness against you was

728
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 3: a convicted child molester, right, who was an incentivized witness.

729
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, this individual, he was a custodian. He was

730
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 5: at the crime scene when it happened, and he went

731
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 5: outside when the two individuals were out by this car,

732
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 5: who may or may not have committed the crime. In

733
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: the police phone call the police were called minutes later,

734
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 5: he says, I don't know what the people looked like.

735
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 5: I couldn't even tell you what they were wearing. I

736
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 5: didn't get that good of a look, right, And so

737
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 5: he gives the phone to a female and she could

738
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: tell the police what the guy's actually looked like and

739
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 5: their build and everything, And so we have on the

740
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 5: record this guy is saying to the police, I have

741
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 5: no idea what these guys look like. I can't tell

742
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 5: you what color the hair is anything. And then he

743
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 5: gets out of jail child molestation. The prosecution obviously calls

744
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 5: him in and ultimately he says, yep, that's the guy

745
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 5: that I saw. So you have the you know, So

746
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 5: that's that story in a nutshell.

747
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 3: So in case there wasn't enough. That's troubling everybody about

748
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: this case already. The fact that they would actually release

749
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 3: a convicted child molester in exchange for perjured testimony against you.

750
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 5: Well, I think his time was up, so I think

751
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 5: more of what happened there ist he was gonna get out,

752
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 5: and they basically insinuated, if you don't help us, then

753
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 5: you're gonna go back in. So it's actually that would

754
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 5: be the assumption, right that they helped get him out,

755
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 5: But ultimately what they were doing is we're just not

756
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 5: gonna help put you back in if you help us, right,

757
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 5: But if you don't help us, then we're gonna make

758
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 5: sure that you violate your probation and you spend another

759
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 5: two or three years in prison as a child molester,

760
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 5: which is very, very rough to me. There is nothing

761
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 5: worse than a jail house snitch. I mean that is,

762
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 5: if you are a prosecutor and you use a jailhouse snitch,

763
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 5: you should go straight to hell because jail house snitches

764
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 5: have zero credibility. They are always lying, they're always incentivized.

765
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 5: It is literally the most discussing thing that I've ever seen,

766
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 5: and you know, it impacts people's lives. I was in

767
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 5: maximum security prison in jail for a decade, ten years

768
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 5: of my life. My case really turned in two thousand

769
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 5: and nine when Kathleen Zellner got involved. Here's one of

770
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 5: the greatest attorneys in our nation. She has more exonerations

771
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 5: than any other individual attorney in the whole entire country,

772
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 5: and she was willing to take my case pro bono

773
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 5: at that and that was just I mean, that was

774
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 5: the biggest ray of hope that I had had at

775
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 5: that point. And I'm so great that she's in my life,

776
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 5: not only, you know, on the legal side, but just

777
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 5: as as a friend and a confidant.

778
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: But your biggest advocate through all those years was your father,

779
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: who went to extraordinary lengths to fight for you, to

780
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: make sure that you knew that he had your back,

781
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: and to ultimately prevail, or you wouldn't be sitting here now.

782
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 3: But there was another person who played an important role

783
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: in this right and she was someone who had written

784
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: to you as so many other people had, but they

785
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: took on a whole new life.

786
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Micah my girlfriend, current girlfriend. Still we've been together,

787
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 5: I think over five years at this point. I've been

788
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 5: out less than four. You know, I've been very fortunate.

789
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 5: Like I said, I you know, without my family, I

790
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 5: wouldn't have survived. I would have been crazy. I wouldn't

791
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 5: have given up, but I would have lost a lot

792
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 5: of hope. So without them, I wouldn't be here. And

793
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 5: then Micah came along somehow we just ended up writing

794
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 5: and talking more and she became a big part of

795
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 5: my life and really kind of initiated this whole social

796
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 5: media movement which helped my case get so much attention,

797
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 5: which was really incredible. So, you know, it is amazing

798
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 5: what has happened with her in the social media movement.

799
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 5: We have a friend from Facebook, Mike, who was just

800
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 5: very helpful. I mean he helped us like design the

801
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 5: Facebook page and get it up there, and another guy, Richard,

802
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 5: and so with those three they ran the social media thing.

803
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 5: And when our page got up to one hundred thousand

804
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 5: people on Facebook and that was big. Then there was

805
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 5: no Instagram really and that really helped push the case

806
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 5: forward and really helped push what my father was doing

807
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 5: out there and what my mother was doing. And like

808
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 5: I said earlier, whenever my trial happened, I lost hope

809
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 5: in humanity. I hated people. I just I couldn't stand.

810
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 5: I couldn't understand them, and that's what was so frustrating

811
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 5: about it. I couldn't understand how people could do these

812
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 5: things to people. I still don't, But then so many

813
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 5: beautiful people have been in my life, like my family

814
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 5: and Mike and Richard and Mike and so many other

815
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 5: incredible individuals from forty eight hours in Dayline and people

816
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 5: who wrote and so well. So many great people have

817
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 5: shown me that the goodness in humanity can overcome the negativity, right,

818
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 5: And there's too many people the name of course I

819
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 5: found I'm leaving people out of it, but it's just

820
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 5: like thank you to them, thank you to everyone who

821
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 5: supported me and supported other people in my situation, because

822
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 5: without that support we would lose hope. And it's really

823
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 5: given me the opportunity actually live my life now, right,

824
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 5: because if I still had that mentality and I never

825
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 5: saw the good side of people, then what would I

826
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 5: be doing with my life now. I wouldn't want to

827
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 5: help other people. I wouldn't I don't think i'd be

828
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 5: happy in society. I wouldn't be happy in my life.

829
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 5: So really they help save my life by giving me

830
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 5: my life back, but they also help save my life

831
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 5: a second time by showing me, you know, the real

832
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 5: passion and real beauty of the human race.

833
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 3: I get people asking me frequently what can I do

834
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: to help? And aside from donating to Innocence Project and

835
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: other organizations. It's interesting to hear you talk about it

836
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 3: because so many people wrote to you and what that meant.

837
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 3: What would you say to someone who's listening now in

838
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: wherever they are.

839
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question, and the reality is there's

840
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 5: a lot you can do. It might not be as

841
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 5: much as you want because you just want to reach

842
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 5: in there and pull those people out like they're obviously innocent.

843
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 5: You want to do everything you can, and so you

844
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 5: just got to You got to be patient. You got

845
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 5: to find the right ways. I mean, the number one

846
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 5: thing I would say is to be active. Right, So,

847
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 5: if you find a case that you believe in, number one,

848
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 5: write that person right their family and let them know

849
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 5: you support them. I mean that right there opens up

850
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 5: a huge door and helps so much. But then if

851
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 5: you initiate that contact, they might have other opportunities for

852
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 5: to help, like riding the governor or putting together some

853
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 5: kind of thing that would bring other people in and

854
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 5: make them aware of it. So to me, it is

855
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 5: it is being active and creating awareness. The best thing

856
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 5: you can do. Write a family member, right the person

857
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 5: that you support, and then get involved and start spreading

858
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 5: awareness to your friends and family. Tell them about the case,

859
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 5: have them read the case, and start talking to your

860
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 5: local politicians. Write them letters, make phone calls. I mean

861
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 5: even this day, every week or two weeks, I'm calling

862
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 5: some governor. I never get a hold of the governor himself,

863
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 5: but I am letting them know how I feel about

864
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 5: a case. And I am writing them, and I'm sending

865
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 5: them tweets, and I'm writing them emails, Like any way

866
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 5: we can let them know, let the people in charge

867
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 5: of these systems know that we are paying attention and

868
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 5: that we demand accountability. I think that is what is

869
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 5: going to help make change right. And so what I

870
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 5: hear a lot is people say like, I don't feel

871
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 5: like me as a person can do enough to bring

872
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: about change. But that's how change is actually done right.

873
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 5: It's not done by one person. It's done by groups

874
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 5: of individuals, done by all of us together doing our

875
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 5: own little part. Like I wish I could do more.

876
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 5: I'm just one little guy. But you know, I do

877
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 5: my little part, and I ask other people to do

878
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 5: their little parts, And if we keep doing that individually,

879
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 5: then I think we're gonna we're gonna see a big change.

880
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: You know, we talked about the worst moment of your

881
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 3: life and the worst week of your life. What about

882
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 3: the best moment of your life?

883
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 5: You know, I think as a human being, you focus

884
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 5: on the negative so much that I don't know what

885
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 5: the best of the I mean. The thing about living

886
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 5: in prison for so long is that you kind of,

887
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 5: I don't know, you see the world a different way,

888
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 5: and you aren't able to have those high moments of happiness.

889
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 5: I haven't really been able to find that in my

890
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 5: life yet, which is someone unfortunate I've been. I've been

891
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 5: able to do some incredible things. I mean, I've been

892
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 5: to a lot of different countries and I've traveled the

893
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 5: world since i've been out. I've been able to go

894
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,959
Speaker 5: to the Super Bowl. I've been able to with my father,

895
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 5: which is really amazing, and spend that weekend with them there.

896
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 5: And you know, I spend as much time as I

897
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 5: can with my family doing whatever we can, whether there's

898
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 5: dinner or traveling. I have my own TV show. I

899
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 5: wrote my own book, which which was, you know, probably

900
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 5: my greatest accomplishment personally. And throughout all these things, I've

901
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 5: never had like this, this moment of intense joy. And

902
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 5: and I didn't used to be that way, you know,

903
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 5: when I was younger, when I was in high school,

904
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 5: and you know, I mean I I just love life

905
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 5: so much, like every day I had intense joy. And

906
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 5: while I do drive some joy out of these things,

907
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 5: of course, it's I can't. I can't get to that

908
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 5: next level where I used to be. And I think

909
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 5: that's kind of what prison does to people, you know.

910
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 5: I mean, some people may be able to get out

911
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 5: and resume a normal life. I think a lot of people,

912
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 5: you know, put on a strong front after what's happened

913
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 5: to them, and I certainly do. But the reality is that,

914
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 5: you know, it affects you, and it impacts you. And

915
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 5: that's one of the things that impacts me most. And

916
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 5: the reality is, like I walk around with this rain

917
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 5: cloud over my head, I feel like a lot of times,

918
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 5: and I'm afraid of the lightning, you know, And so

919
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 5: if it's raining and thundering outside and there's lightning every

920
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 5: I'm not going to go out there because I don't

921
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 5: want to get hit by it, right, But the way

922
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 5: the legal system affects a human being in these situations,

923
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 5: and you see how humans act and everything, you know,

924
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 5: this can happen to you or somebody you love. It's

925
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 5: like they could come right now and kick in the

926
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 5: door and arrest you. They could do it to me,

927
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 5: They could do it to anybody. And so I walk

928
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 5: around with this this cloud over my head and you know,

929
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 5: I could get hit by that lightning at any moment,

930
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 5: and there's nothing I can do. I can't there is

931
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 5: no indoors, right, I could be in another country, it

932
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 5: could happen, So it is. It is frightening. So yeah,

933
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 5: I mean your happy moment, it's hard to describe. I

934
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 5: I love life and I enjoy life, but for me,

935
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 5: my happiest moments are giving back because it makes me

936
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 5: feel like I'm protecting myself in a way as well.

937
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 5: And it gets rid of that cloud a bit because

938
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 5: hopefully it's turning this thing around that impacts us all.

939
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: What about the moment of exoneration.

940
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I wish I could say that was amazing, you know,

941
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 5: and that's you know, you really expect it would be

942
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 5: and everything. But that was hell for me. I didn't

943
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 5: know what was going on. I didn't know if I

944
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 5: was actually gonna be let out. A lot of times

945
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 5: they will take you back to the county jail and

946
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 5: then just read you your rights and recharge you and

947
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 5: then put you in the count of jail for another

948
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 5: year and a half. I didn't know any of that

949
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 5: what was going to happen until I watched my parents

950
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 5: walk through the sally Port door. And I'm still sitting

951
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 5: in the back of a van in a cage with

952
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 5: shackles on, in a orange jumpsuit, and that's when I

953
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 5: realized it was over. So, I mean, it felt good,

954
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 5: but I still like, I don't know if these people

955
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 5: are gonna come kick my door. In the next day.

956
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 5: I was literally looking out my windows every time I

957
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 5: thought I heard something for the next six months. And

958
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 5: so that's that's the way these things impact people. And

959
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 5: you know, I think, now, obviously there's enough facts to

960
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 5: protect me, and I think I am safe, but I

961
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 5: know that just happens to other people. So it's yeah, man,

962
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 5: it's good that some people can enjoy it. But I've

963
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 5: looked so much into our legal system and seen what's

964
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 5: happened to so many other people like Brian Ferguson. You know,

965
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 5: he was exonerating. They wanted to retry him and everything

966
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 5: and basically forced him into taking an alpha plate. It's

967
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 5: situations like that that really don't allow you to necessarily

968
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 5: live your life to the fullest. And I think as

969
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 5: time goes on, you get better. But here we are

970
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 5: four years and I still have all these considerations.

971
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 3: So let's talk about your book, all right, So tell

972
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 3: us about the book, and then any other final thoughts

973
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: that you have.

974
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so my book Stronger, Faster, Smarter. I wrote it

975
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 5: in my last five months in prison. It is one

976
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 5: of my greatest achievements. I just wanted to see if

977
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 5: I could write a book, and I saw so many

978
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 5: people working out really hard, but they weren't getting where

979
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 5: they wanted. They weren't accomplishing their goals. And I realized

980
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 5: that they're not educating themselves on what to do in

981
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 5: the fitness world. So I came up with this plan

982
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 5: of doing like basically six main moves. You eat it right,

983
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 5: eat a certain way, and then you educate yourself and

984
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 5: you'll be able to accomplish whatever fitness goals you want.

985
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 5: That's what the book is kind of about. But I

986
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 5: tied it in with my experience in prison and how

987
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 5: I I didn't know that ten years ago. You know,

988
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 5: I didn't know how to get in shape. I had

989
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 5: to figure it out to survive. And if I could

990
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 5: do it in that environment, then certainly everyone can wherever

991
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 5: they're at in the life. And so that's what it's about.

992
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: Man.

993
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 5: It's a hopeful book that has some good information I

994
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 5: think that can help people achieve their goals.

995
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 3: Get the book great, read, stronger, faster, or smarter. Get stronger, faster,

996
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 3: and smarter than Ryan Ferguson way. He was able to

997
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 3: do it in prison, so I guess the rest of

998
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 3: us have no excuse. And Ryan, any final thoughts that

999
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 3: you want to share, you.

1000
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 5: Know, my final thoughts are just be aware. As Jason

1001
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 5: was saying earlier, You know, when you look at these cases,

1002
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 5: always question what you're reading, Always question what you're watching.

1003
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 5: The best thing we can do is educate ourselves, right.

1004
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 5: Don't take anyone's word as the truth. Don't take it

1005
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 5: as gospel, whether it's your police or prosecutors, your local newspaper, whatever,

1006
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 5: Look into it yourself. These are really interesting cases. They're

1007
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 5: very important and they impact us all and I think

1008
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 5: that each one of us can do a lot to

1009
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 5: change the way our legal system operates. And it is

1010
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 5: for ourselves, it's for our youth, it's for everyone. So yeah,

1011
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 5: it's it's it's amazing. I think the more you look

1012
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 5: get into it, the more you're going to be intrigued

1013
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 5: and the more you're gonna want to want to get involved.

1014
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: You've been listening to a very special episode of Wrongful

1015
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 3: Conviction with a very special person, my friend Ryan Ferguson. Ryan,

1016
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 3: thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts and wisdom,

1017
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 3: and once again the book is stronger, faster, smarter.

1018
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 5: Great. Thanks Jason Man, thanks for all that you do. Seriously,

1019
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 5: like you lead by example and I appreciate that. What

1020
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 5: I just said is, you know, go out there and

1021
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 5: do what you can. That's what you've been doing. And

1022
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 5: uh and there's a lot you could do that you know,

1023
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 5: you could not care about any of this, and it's

1024
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 5: amazing to see what you do. Man. You give me

1025
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 5: a lot of hope. So thanks for having me. It

1026
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 5: was an honor.

1027
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 3: And uh, yeah, right on, don't forget to give us

1028
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 3: a fantastic review.

1029
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts.

1030
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 3: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1031
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1032
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 3: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1033
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 3: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn

1034
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank

1035
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 3: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music

1036
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 3: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer

1037
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 3: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at

1038
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful

1039
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 3: Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for

1040
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 3: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one