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Speaker 2: Norma Linda Paul Shoeny were live here in our Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Interactive Brokers studio, streaming live on YouTube as well. I
Speaker 2: want to follow up on that story that Lisa was
Speaker 2: just reporting. Do we have a deal in the energy
Speaker 2: space or not?
Speaker 3: Again?
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal was reporting that Shell early stages and
Speaker 2: talks to acquire British Petroleum BP. Then Schell say no,
Speaker 2: not so much. So I don't know where we are here.
Speaker 2: Let's check in with Will Harris. It's his job to
Speaker 2: know what's going on. He's a senior Global Energy analyst
Speaker 2: for Bloomberg Intelligence. He's based in London. Hey, well, what
Speaker 2: do you think's going on there with Shell and BP?
Speaker 2: If anything?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I think it's pretty important to point out here.
Speaker 4: Shell was very quick to refute these reports from the
Speaker 4: Wall Street Journal. It's pretty consistent with what we think.
Speaker 4: This would be a very opportunistic and potentially quite risky
Speaker 4: strategic departure for Shell. They have shown a very strict
Speaker 4: capital discipline for the last several years, and so this
Speaker 4: would be a big, big ticket item for them to
Speaker 4: try and absorb. Any deal would likely near one hundred
Speaker 4: billion dollars assuming something like a twenty percent premium, and
Speaker 4: you would almost certainly see major antitrust hurdles, integration risks,
Speaker 4: synergy challenges over many many years which would follow. So
Speaker 4: in short, we think it's quite unlikely that the Shell
Speaker 4: would make a run at the full full takeover of BP.
Speaker 4: What we do think is probably more likely is they
Speaker 4: could be interested in select businesses of BP that they
Speaker 4: could add as sort of bolt on acquisitions.
Speaker 5: Have this played out, of course, it would have been
Speaker 5: a really major deal here. But what is M and
Speaker 5: A activity look like More broadly in the sector.
Speaker 4: So EMINE activity has sort of take a bit of
Speaker 4: a back seat over the last little while. We've had
Speaker 4: a pretty bearish commodity outlook, and notwithstanding the last couple
Speaker 4: of weeks with a surge and geopolitical risk, we're mostly
Speaker 4: seeing smaller, lower risk near field acquisitions from these companies.
Speaker 4: They're not taking the kind of big risks that we
Speaker 4: are that we have seen maybe in the last couple
Speaker 4: of decades, and that's for many reasons. I mean, these
Speaker 4: these portfolios are much more global and much more diverse
Speaker 4: than they have been in the past. And there's this
Speaker 4: tension at the moment within this peer group of how
Speaker 4: how much to focus on their core oil and gas
Speaker 4: hydrocarbon portfolios and how quickly to advance their energy transition ambitions.
Speaker 4: What percentage of their capeck should they be investing in
Speaker 4: renewable power hydrogen ev charging networks, knowing that these are
Speaker 4: much lower return businesses than their core oil and gas projects.
Speaker 2: All Right, I'm putting on my m and a banker
Speaker 2: hat will here because I want to get a deal
Speaker 2: on the tape here. I want some bankers and lawyers
Speaker 2: to get paid here. BP's got a market cap of
Speaker 2: eighty billion dollars. That's a big number. That's a lot
Speaker 2: of money. But Shells at two hundred billion and Exon
Speaker 2: Mobiles at four hundred and seventy billion, is BP are
Speaker 2: they big enough to play on the global energy stage
Speaker 2: these days?
Speaker 4: So it's a good point and the answer is not really. So.
Speaker 4: BP has suffered terribly on valuation compared to Shell, and
Speaker 4: particularly compared to their American counterparts Exon and Chevron. This
Speaker 4: is for many reasons. They've had a flip flopping strategy
Speaker 4: over the pace of their energy transition progress. Their costs
Speaker 4: have been far too high, They're spending has been far
Speaker 4: too high. They for a couple years they were planning
Speaker 4: to reduce their hydrocarbon production by a significant amount. They've
Speaker 4: turned that around, so they've sort of been all over
Speaker 4: the place. Their valuation has suffered, which makes them a
Speaker 4: potentially interesting acquisition target. We've written for a while now
Speaker 4: that the sum of their parts is much more than
Speaker 4: where they're currently valued. Their balance sheet is also quite
Speaker 4: over leveraged, so this makes them an attractive acquisition target.
Speaker 4: But as we know, there are very very limited suitors
Speaker 4: out there Exon, Chevron, Shell, potentially some Middle Eastern NOCs.
Speaker 4: But as I mentioned, there's those massive challenges for a
Speaker 4: scale of this sort of acquisition, and as a result,
Speaker 4: we continue to think that it is probably unlikely.
Speaker 3: Not much happening.
Speaker 5: When you look at this share performance here for some
Speaker 5: of these US based companies like Exon as you called out,
Speaker 5: and Chevron here. But how are these companies scaling right now?
Speaker 5: What is it looking like right now in terms of
Speaker 5: how these US based companies are performing in comparison to
Speaker 5: their competitors.
Speaker 4: So Excell and Chevron have a very differentiated strategy compared
Speaker 4: to the Europeans. There's a very wide strategic divergence across
Speaker 4: the Atlantic. Exon and Chevron have stayed the course with
Speaker 4: oil and gas for the most part. They are still
Speaker 4: investing heavily in oil and gas growth, particularly in the
Speaker 4: Permian and also down in Guyana with some major projects
Speaker 4: coming online now and in the near future. And you
Speaker 4: can compare that to the European strategies which have moved
Speaker 4: quite quickly into renewable power, off solar, offshore wind, hydrogen,
Speaker 4: and I think the proof is in the putting as
Speaker 4: far as how the markets have received these. You can
Speaker 4: see Exon and Chevron are currently trading at about thirty
Speaker 4: percent higher on a forward earning spasis than the European group.
Speaker 4: So the market has certainly told them what they think.
Speaker 4: The issue with the Europeans that they've been pulled in
Speaker 4: two different directions. They have their traditional energy investors and
Speaker 4: they also have a growing cadure of sustainability minded investors
Speaker 4: that are demanding a quicker reduction in carbon intensity and
Speaker 4: a quicker pacing of their energy transition investments.
Speaker 2: Well, I watched the first season A Landman. I now
Speaker 2: consider myself an expert on all things oil and gas,
Speaker 2: but I have to put myself in the shoes of
Speaker 2: some of these European investors. I mean they're willing to
Speaker 2: take lower valuations, lower returns for I guess a sociological
Speaker 2: kind of bent there a little bit. Or they are
Speaker 2: European investors? Are they saying scrolled, I'm just going to
Speaker 2: go where i can get the best returns in this space.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Exonmobile and Chevron and things
Speaker 2: like that. How are the clients that you talked to,
Speaker 2: how are they thinking about it?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So to be clear, I think that this ideology is
Speaker 4: somewhat fading into the background or for the time being.
Speaker 4: And I think it was initially viewed as the enegy
Speaker 4: transition was unfolding a lot more quickly than in reality,
Speaker 4: and so it was sort of seen as a heavy
Speaker 4: carbon profile was seen as a major major risk to
Speaker 4: these companies. But in reality, oil and gas investors want
Speaker 4: oil and gas exposure and So the European oil and
Speaker 4: gas companies have been sort of sitting on the fence
Speaker 4: as a result, and they've been unable to placate either side,
Speaker 4: either the energy investors or the sustainability minded ones.
Speaker 5: I was looking through some headlines that came through earlier
Speaker 5: on the Bloomberg terminal. So the US is also targeting
Speaker 5: EU methane regulations in trade talks. Also the US target's
Speaker 5: corporate sustainability due diligence directive that's coming from the Wall
Speaker 5: Street Journal. What's the latest right now in terms of
Speaker 5: the atmosphere and environment? What are people discussing right now
Speaker 5: as we think about drilling really here.
Speaker 4: So drilling is is taking a sort of very cautious
Speaker 4: approach at the moment. The investment plans for these companies
Speaker 4: are relatively flat year over year, and I think this
Speaker 4: is shadowing really the commodity price environment that we're seeing.
Speaker 4: So the growth is somewhat subdued. But what we what
Speaker 4: we are seeing from this group is is a big
Speaker 4: focus on shareholder return, so buybacks, continued dividend policy growth,
Speaker 4: and a focus on trading for the for the larger
Speaker 4: of the group.
Speaker 2: All right, So Bill, just to bring in full circle
Speaker 2: here Shell BP. Do you think something happens and if
Speaker 2: you do, with the regulators allow it.
Speaker 4: So the regulatory issue is massive for this, you know.
Speaker 4: I think it's important to note that this tie up
Speaker 4: has been rumored to happen for you know, longer than
Speaker 4: I've been alive, and it hasn't. And I think one
Speaker 4: one of the big reasons for that is the anti
Speaker 4: trust issue. And so this particularly applies for the fuel
Speaker 4: retail marketing component of these companies, where you could potentially
Speaker 4: see the majority or even all of the fuel supply
Speaker 4: of certain countries being dominated by one company. Countries will
Speaker 4: not like that, So I think this is probably the
Speaker 4: number one reason why it hasn't happened so far. I
Speaker 4: continue to think it's the reason why it won't happen.
Speaker 4: But I would not be surprised Shell to be interested
Speaker 4: in something like BPS onshore, a US shale business which
Speaker 4: is called BPX, maybe their Gulf of Mexico portfolio, which
Speaker 4: is where there would be huge operational overlap and potential
Speaker 4: cost synergies offshore Brazil in the deep water, and particularly
Speaker 4: BP's LNG business, which is about half of what Shells is,
Speaker 4: but combining those, it would be controlling roughly a quarter
Speaker 4: of the global LNG market, and we know that's a
Speaker 4: corner stone of Shell's long term strategy. So I think
Speaker 4: those could be interesting. It's just a matter of the
Speaker 4: right price and how badly BP wants to fix their
Speaker 4: balance sheet.
Speaker 2: Well, great stuff, as I always appreciate getting a few minutes
Speaker 2: of your time. Will here, Senior Global Energy Antis, Bloomberg Intelligence.
Speaker 2: He's over there in Queen Victoria Street, Bloomberg European HQ.
Speaker 2: It is a spectacular building in the City of London,
Speaker 2: right next to the Bank of England. It doesn't get
Speaker 2: any more City of London than the Bloomberg HQ.
Speaker 3: Appreciate that.
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Speaker 2: Har we got normal, Linda Paul Swen. You live here
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Speaker 2: as well, So check us out there on that intraweb thing.
Speaker 2: Walgreens Boots Alliance report quarterly profit that beat Wallster rereet expectations.
Speaker 2: But this is the last one is a public company.
Speaker 2: They're going private. So I want to figure out what's
Speaker 2: going on out there in the world of the pharmacy business.
Speaker 2: Jonathan Palmer, Senior Healthcare Ants, So Bloomberg Intelligence joins us
Speaker 2: here in our Bloomberg in ARCTI broker studio. He doesn't
Speaker 2: mail it in from points beyond like his management team.
Speaker 2: He's here in the city John to talk to us
Speaker 2: about what is happening with Walgreens Boots. Not so much
Speaker 2: to Ernest say, but what's going on to it? They're
Speaker 2: going private? Why are they going private?
Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks for having me on, Paul. So it's an
Speaker 6: interesting Wesson in terms of maybe how not to run
Speaker 6: a business. I mean, Walgreens was formed about a decade
Speaker 6: ago when it acquired Boots Alliance, the European businesses that
Speaker 6: it owns, and then as subsequently sold the wholesale business
Speaker 6: in Europe, and now it's just Walgreens and Boots pretty much.
Speaker 6: And then they have another little bit of healthcare services
Speaker 6: that acquired a couple of years ago. But pharmacy has
Speaker 6: been in a structural decline for the last decade. You know,
Speaker 6: the right AID tried to sell to then that got
Speaker 6: squashed from anti trust purposes. Right AD has filed for
Speaker 6: bankruptcy twice. Now there's a whole lot of pressure in
Speaker 6: this industry, and that pressure is coming from the payers,
Speaker 6: the PBMs, the insurance companies. And so it's an interesting
Speaker 6: time because I think we've probably reached the bottom where
Speaker 6: there's no more blood to be kind of squeezed from
Speaker 6: the stone from pharmacies, and we're seeing new reimbursement models
Speaker 6: come about what they call like cost plus, like Mark
Speaker 6: Cuban's model cost plus drugs, where the PBMs are actually
Speaker 6: forcing this on the pharmacies of the payment model. And
Speaker 6: so it's interesting in that Walgreens is probably selling at
Speaker 6: the bottom, but it might be you know, a little
Speaker 6: brighter in the future from here.
Speaker 5: So as we're looking at the pharmaceutical space, or its
Speaker 5: pharmacy space more broadly, here you've got Walgreens, you've got CBS,
Speaker 5: but you also have you know, right in and all
Speaker 5: these other companies.
Speaker 3: But they lean a lot into the retail space.
Speaker 5: So how much of these companies is really retail versus
Speaker 5: the pharma pharmacy side.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so the model has always been that the pharmacy
Speaker 6: in the back of the store was what drew people in,
Speaker 6: and they have to walk by all the shaving cream
Speaker 6: and shampoo and salty snacks, and those were higher margin products.
Speaker 6: The pharmacy was there to get them in this store.
Speaker 6: I mean, there's been the Amazon effect over the last
Speaker 6: fifteen years, right, everything goes online, so people aren't buying
Speaker 6: things in the same way that they used to for
Speaker 6: a convenience factor. I don't have to pick up my
Speaker 6: shampoo right here at CBS because it's going to come
Speaker 6: from Amazon tomorrow when I click the button. So that
Speaker 6: piece of it has kind of gotten smaller and less
Speaker 6: important over time.
Speaker 3: So you did mention the idea of Amazon.
Speaker 5: You've got Hymns and Hers, You've got all these other
Speaker 5: brands that are literally bringing stuff to your doorstep. How
Speaker 5: has this really impacted those brick and mortar companies.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a great a great question because we've seen
Speaker 6: a move to online business models. So you mentioned Hymns
Speaker 6: and Hers. There's row Amazon has their own pharmacy. I mean,
Speaker 6: they're not really big impactful companies from like a dollar perspective,
Speaker 6: like their revenues or share of prescriptions is really quite low.
Speaker 6: But I think what's happening is like we're just commoditizing
Speaker 6: all this right and making it super easy. I think
Speaker 6: ultimately in ten twenty years, all of our prescriptions will
Speaker 6: be online.
Speaker 2: Who sets prices for prescriptions? I know I'm going to
Speaker 2: regret asking this question because the economics of your business
Speaker 2: are the most complicated I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 6: Well, that's one of the big arguments around why there's
Speaker 6: so much frustration from consumers and Washington and around drug pricing,
Speaker 6: because our drug prices are the pointing at Boomberg's, are
Speaker 6: different for people in Medicare and different from people from Medicaid.
Speaker 6: There's no one price, Like if you go and buy
Speaker 6: I don't know, a toy from Walmart, it's the same
Speaker 6: no matter where you go, and it's usually probably within
Speaker 6: spinning distance if you go to a competitor. Drug prices
Speaker 6: are just all over the place. And so one of
Speaker 6: the reasons the PBMs come under such fires, they're the
Speaker 6: ones kind of controlling that system of pricing and making
Speaker 6: it not transparent. And so I think what's happening is
Speaker 6: we're getting to a place where transparency is being valued
Speaker 6: and being pushed both in the market but also from
Speaker 6: washing as well.
Speaker 5: So we're looking at this situation right now where Walgreens
Speaker 5: is being bought by Sycamore, you have Writing that went bankrupt,
Speaker 5: you have all these companies struggling here. Where do you
Speaker 5: see this going moving forward? In terms of those other
Speaker 5: companies out there? Do you see more of these buyout situations?
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a good question when I think about the landscape.
Speaker 6: I mean, as I mentioned a little while before, you know,
Speaker 6: I think we're going to see this move to more
Speaker 6: stuff online. Walgreens is interesting in that they've never really
Speaker 6: partnered with insurance in the same way like CBS has
Speaker 6: a PBM, they have insurance. They have this vertical model.
Speaker 6: United Healthcare has a vertical model. I think those are
Speaker 6: going to stay. I think we'll see I think we'll
Speaker 6: still see retail pharmacies because people still need to go
Speaker 6: around the corner and get something when they get I
Speaker 6: don't know, a sinus infection or something like that they
Speaker 6: needed today. But I think the value of those is
Speaker 6: going to be minimized over time.
Speaker 2: I go, after years of being a CBS guy, and
Speaker 2: I've got like a jillion doses over the years of
Speaker 2: like a Maxistilan for the four kids at CBS. I'm
Speaker 2: now main Pharmacy, Spring Lake, New Jersey. No big company.
Speaker 3: You switch, Hey, I switch, and.
Speaker 6: But even those guys will say you switch to a
Speaker 6: mom and pop.
Speaker 2: Yes, now, but they'll say, we don't have everything. So
Speaker 2: sometimes some things we just know we're not going to
Speaker 2: carry because we can't.
Speaker 6: We've done the same thing in Westfield, New Jersey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there you go. So CBS is good for me?
Speaker 2: All right, Jonathan? Are we gonna have any M and
Speaker 2: A in the space there's nobody left?
Speaker 6: Well, we've had a bunch of IPOs and kind of
Speaker 6: this like tech golf care bubble. I don't know if
Speaker 6: bubble is the right term, but we've seen Hinge Health
Speaker 6: come to the market recently Omada. There's a lot more
Speaker 6: waiting in the wings.
Speaker 2: See all right, Jonathan Palmer, Senior Healthcare ANTLS. Bloomberg Intelligence
Speaker 2: is one of our best Joining us live here in
Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio.
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Speaker 2: We got normal Melinda, you have Paul Sweeney. You were
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Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: Micron Technologies reported earnings here today, a semiconductor company. I
Speaker 2: don't know a lot about this company, so I said,
Speaker 2: let's get somebody smart in here to talk to us
Speaker 2: about it. Jake Sullivan Silverman, he's the one. We got
Speaker 2: semi conductor anolds fro Bloomberg Intelligence. He joined us here
Speaker 2: in our Bloomerg directed broker studio talk to us about
Speaker 2: Micron Technology. What did they report and what's to tell
Speaker 2: you about the semi space.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so they were had pretty strong results last night.
Speaker 7: It was a beaten rays very strong on earnings based
Speaker 7: on you know, strong gross margins and the big growth
Speaker 7: was really what drove the strength in the quarter. And
Speaker 7: pricing was relatively we based on mix but generally in
Speaker 7: the right upward trajectory, and really, you know, the way
Speaker 7: to think about memory is it's pretty ubiquitous across electronics.
Speaker 7: You can think about smartphones, PCs, servers, both traditional and AI.
Speaker 7: You know, everything that you have that's a in your pocket,
Speaker 7: on your desk, sitting somewhere in your house, it's going
Speaker 7: to have memory or storage some combination of the two
Speaker 7: potentially as well.
Speaker 5: So we all know that demand for AI computing is
Speaker 5: really high right now. We're seeing a lot of those
Speaker 5: companies capitalizing on it, and Wall Street really keeping a
Speaker 5: high bar for these companies.
Speaker 3: But how is Micron matching up with all the other companies?
Speaker 3: Where are they in line?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so, so generally speaking, you know, it's important to
Speaker 7: keep in mind that Micron and a lot of the
Speaker 7: memory peers really trade on a cyclical basis. There are
Speaker 7: quite a few you know, inventory build ups and then
Speaker 7: you know, companies do restocking. And in the past there
Speaker 7: wasn't really as much of an AI story for Microns specifically,
Speaker 7: but with high bandwidth memory of some of their other products.
Speaker 7: You can think about high capacity solid state drives and
Speaker 7: high capacity DRAM modules. That has all been an AI
Speaker 7: story for the most part, and we've seen a lot
Speaker 7: of tailwinds in that business. Micron continues to gain share
Speaker 7: execute very well. It was a pretty important part of
Speaker 7: their story for this past quarter and heading into the
Speaker 7: end of this fiscal year.
Speaker 2: And I started the beginning, I didn't know a lot
Speaker 2: about Micron Technologies. No surprise, the stock's up fifty percent
Speaker 2: year to date.
Speaker 3: What's the story there.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, you know, there were definitely a lot of
Speaker 7: worries once we got into the sort of you know,
Speaker 7: tariff related potential headwinds in April, and that really was
Speaker 7: a major drag on the stock price because there was
Speaker 7: potential for higher prices across all of their product lines
Speaker 7: and that could really be a hindrance to demand for
Speaker 7: a lot of consumer related specifically products. But you know,
Speaker 7: like PC's smartphones, USB drives and so as that kind
Speaker 7: of you know, headwind kind of faded away, what's happened
Speaker 7: is Micron has gotten those tailwinds from AI and bitter pricing,
Speaker 7: and so there's just a couple of different factors that
Speaker 7: have actually been really helping them out. They've continued to
Speaker 7: generate solid free cash flow over the next over the
Speaker 7: last several quarters, and the expectation is for that to continue.
Speaker 7: That's very important in an industry that's very cyclical.
Speaker 5: So it's out the conference called the Analysts, we're really
Speaker 5: asking the CEO questions about HBM. They're trying to get
Speaker 5: a sense of how much growth is coming.
Speaker 3: Can you explain what that is for our listeners.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, high bandwidth memory HBM it's a very important
Speaker 7: part of AI servers. It's attached pretty much directly to
Speaker 7: the GPUs that Nvidia cells that end up in these
Speaker 7: big server stacks, and so high bandwidth memory has been
Speaker 7: an area where Micron has been gaining share. Sk Heinex
Speaker 7: was the incumbent, and Micron has been executed very well
Speaker 7: on their roadmap. First on eight high as you'll hear
Speaker 7: in the call right, but also twelve high as well.
Speaker 7: So eight high is for Blackwell and twelve high is
Speaker 7: for Blackwell ulture GB three hundred that's coming out, So
Speaker 7: that procurement cycle has already kicked in and they're going
Speaker 7: to see a pretty strong demand over the next coming
Speaker 7: months and quarters for their twelve high stack products. And
Speaker 7: it's really all AI related demand for HBM.
Speaker 3: It's AI.
Speaker 2: So that takes us back to the big big picture,
Speaker 2: And I know you and your technology research colleagues at
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Intelligence, you do a ton of work on AI.
Speaker 2: You've got what I think is the definitive report on AI.
Speaker 2: So folks, if you haven't seen it, go to the
Speaker 2: Bloomberg BI go and that's the definitive.
Speaker 3: Report on Wall Street.
Speaker 2: I think on AI, we never talk about eighty eight
Speaker 2: more because it's tariffs all day, every day. Just give
Speaker 2: us the latest on the AI story. The investors you
Speaker 2: talk to, the clients you talk are they still as
Speaker 2: bullish on AI as they were, say, last year.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's a lot of optimism still in AI.
Speaker 7: For Micron specifically, it's been you know, we've been talking
Speaker 7: about in Nvidia kind of beating and raising for so
Speaker 7: many quarters and maybe a little bit of a slowdown
Speaker 7: last quarter or so. But but Micron, the story was
Speaker 7: so early. They still like very small percentage of their
Speaker 7: revenue is AI related. So it's kind of interesting how
Speaker 7: there's been a little bit of a dichotomy in terms
Speaker 7: of AI not being the same tailwind for Micron that
Speaker 7: you'd see for some other companies like in Nvidia. But
Speaker 7: there's still a lot of optimism in the investor community,
Speaker 7: and there's quite a few people trying to understand where
Speaker 7: does Micron really benefit from AI and how much more
Speaker 7: you know, infrastructure expansion for AI, you know, hyperscale capics,
Speaker 7: how does that benefit Micron and how much more do
Speaker 7: we need to see for Micron or really benefit heavily
Speaker 7: from that?
Speaker 2: All right, Jake, thanks so much for joining us. Really
Speaker 2: appreciate it. Jake Silverman, Semiconductor Anas Bloomberg Intelligence joining us
Speaker 2: live here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. We have
Speaker 2: what I think is the best technology research on Wall
Speaker 2: Street mandates seeing anarag Rana lead it. But we've got
Speaker 2: Animal globally covering the global technology space, Asia, Europe, the US,
Speaker 2: We're everywhere. So that's how you have to cover technology
Speaker 2: these days, and we make the investment.
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