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Crime Stories with Nancy 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: Grace on Serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: children chained to their beds and starved, lying in their 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: own urine and feces until one of them, a brave 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: teen girl who cops believe when they finally see her, 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: is about ten due to malnutrition, makes a daring escape 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: through window. She actually takes a little sister along with 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: the sister is so afraid of what her parents will 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: do to her if they find out she escapes, she 25 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: turns back. The teen girl goes on and the House 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: of Horrors is discovered. Well, there is so much breaking 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: news it's like drinking from a fire hija. But let's 28 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: get right down to it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with thus with me. 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l A psychoanalyst, and Joseph Scott Morgan 31 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: forensics expert, Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Scott Kimbler, 32 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, and Dr Jesse Barelli, psychologist, University of California. 33 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: To all of you, thank you very first thing, we 34 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: learned that investigators are bringing in cadaver dogs cadaver dogs 35 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: to look to search for the remains of more children 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: and order DNA testing on the couple's victims. That's right, 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: police considering bringing in cadaver dogs to determine if there 38 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: are remains of more children in this horrific home. We 39 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: also learn that the mom wanted to have even more children. 40 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: What thirteens? Not enough? One and more children? And can 41 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: you can you believe this because she wanted a reality show. 42 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: There's so much more happening. The parents just in court 43 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: facing dozens and dozens of counts of felony crimes. But 44 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: first to Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories Investigative reported, Chuck, tell 45 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: me the latest on what's happening in court. What happened, Well, 46 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: the bond was set to thirteen million dollars. Eat as 47 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: you said, they faced a lot of charges depended adult abuse, 48 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: false imprisonment, child abuse, torture. The two year old was 49 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: not abused at all, the youngest of the children, So 50 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: there's only twelve counts, not thirteen of child abuse. But 51 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: the cadaver dogs, you know they will be if if 52 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: in fact the Riverside DA wants to do this, they 53 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: will be brought to every known residence including Texas. So 54 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 1: this investigation is just now really unfolded. WHOA, whoa, whoa, 55 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: whoa back it up now, I'm takeing it. That is 56 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: because Joseph Scott Morgan joining me forensics expert, Professor of 57 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott Morgan. These this family, 58 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: these parents have gone from home to home to home. 59 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: I guess I call it a house because this was 60 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: no way at home. And I recall investigating one of 61 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: the homes in Texas and the new owners, the people 62 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: that bought it, said they found scratch marks and claw 63 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: marks at the doors, and that the carpet was soaked 64 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: with urine feces and they thought they just had a 65 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: lot of pets. Joe Scott, it was those children clawing 66 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: at the door and the closets to get out. How 67 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: do cadaver dogs work, explained to us. How we're going 68 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: back ten years to their old homes where they used 69 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: to live. What could cadaver dogs possibly find after this 70 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: period of time. Well, first off, I find it very 71 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: interesting that the police atomatically are at least they have 72 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: the idea that they have a need for cadaver dog. 73 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: I think that tells us a lot upfront, Nancy. Secondly, UH, 74 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: these dogs are specifically trained, their their noses work on 75 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: a on a very broad spectrum, and they are trained, 76 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: UH specifically to smell for um for hints of human decomposition, 77 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: which in UH in the parlance of dealing with dogs. 78 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: They have humans have a very specific odor which which 79 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: dogs will pick up on. Even going back some distance 80 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: in time now ten years, I don't know how much 81 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: success they will have. However, Um, if these if there 82 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: are bodies that are located in these dwellings, it's gonna 83 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: be very interesting to find out how these bodies, if 84 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: they're there, how they were disposed of, and um, how 85 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: they were kind of sequestered or hidden away from everything else. Well, 86 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: I mean think about it. Let's bring in our shrinks 87 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: on this with me. Dr Bethany Marshall from l A. 88 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barelli from University California. Dr Bethany, Let's take 89 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: this thing through. They have a habit of going from 90 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: home to home. Why why would they pick up and leave? 91 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this guy is an educated engineer at one 92 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: time pulling down about a hundred and fifty grand a year, 93 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: way way over the national medium. I mean that that's 94 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: like over three times the national income for a whole family. 95 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: So why pick up and leave? What are they hiding? 96 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: What are they running from? And think about this up. 97 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: Jackie here in the studio wants me to throw this in. 98 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: This came out about bringing cadaver dogs after the siblings 99 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: were rescued. Have one of them stated something like, I 100 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: used to have another little sister. What happened to her? 101 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: Think about a bathany? Wow? Okay, Nancy, you and I 102 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: have covered so many stories together where parents have killed 103 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: their children and where they secrete the bodies is often 104 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: so amazing. Wasn't there one story where a child was 105 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: hidden above the door jam? There was another story where 106 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: a child was hidden below a stairway. I left out 107 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: the Chinese restaurant, the China. They're hidden everywhere, everywhere, absolutely, 108 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: So let me go to a new guest joining us today, 109 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: let the hazing began. Okay, just kidding. Dr Jesse Barelli, 110 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: psychologists joining me from University of California. Dr Jesse, thank 111 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: you for being with us. I'd love to hear your 112 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: thoughts on this. Yeah. I think I think it's very possible. 113 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: With their other children around, were other children around, um. However, 114 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: these parents seem to have a knack for figuring out 115 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: a way to keep their kids living on death store 116 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: step um. And so they may be very skilled at it. 117 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: And and that's maybe how they liked to have their children, 118 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: all of them in that near dying range in terms 119 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: of their weight UM. So it's possible that they don't 120 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: have any that that they didn't want to kill their children, 121 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: but that they just wanted them to be at that 122 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: level of dependence on them. Yeah, that's a good point. 123 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barrella you joining me from University California. What 124 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: about the fact that right now we have been told 125 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: all of these children have been separated at least into 126 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: two hospitals, if not more, one for eighteen and old 127 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: er one for seventeen and under. Of course, when cops 128 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: saw these children, they thought they were all between two 129 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: and ten years old because they were so malnutrition. But 130 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: what effect is that separation going to have on them? 131 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barelli. Yeah, I think that it's it's a 132 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: mistake to be separating them. It's hard because our standard 133 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: medical protocol involved separating adults from minors. So that's that's 134 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: just the way that all hospitals work, UM in terms 135 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: of psychiatric and medical treatment. But it might be a 136 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: mistake in this case because these kids are not are 137 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: not really adults probably um in terms of their true 138 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: developmental age UM, and having another separation from their siblings 139 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: on top of being separated from their parents could be additionally, 140 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: um disturbing for them. Well, as you have stated, quote, 141 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: when we come into the world, our attachment figures are 142 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: our primary sources of safety and security, no matter how 143 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: abusive they are. Then includes siblings, what do you make 144 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: of the fact that they are separated from the parents? 145 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: Thank god, Well, we're happy for that, But in their 146 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: mind that's all they know. Yeah, I mean, I think 147 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: that's going to be a real hurdle to overcome um 148 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: as as they move forward. And something that's hard for 149 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: the public to recognize is that, you know, those of 150 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: us on the other side are really grateful that they've 151 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: been rescued, but they may be primarily grieving and afraid 152 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: of the world. Hold. So one thing I've been curious about, 153 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: for example, how much contact they had with the outside world, 154 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: not in terms of interactions with other people, because we 155 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: know those were pretty limited, but in terms of access 156 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: to media and things like that. But they, for all 157 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: we know, they could have very little idea of what 158 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: the world is like. Um, they could have false ideas 159 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: of what the world is like that their parents have 160 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: um have provided them, Like, well, let's go back to 161 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: what we know. Let's follow up on that, uh, joining me, 162 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: Chuck Robert, Scott Kidler, Joe Scott Morgan, Dr Bethany Marshall, 163 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: and Dr Jesse Barelli Chuck Roberts. It was my understanding 164 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: in their bedroom where they were padlock, not just chained, 165 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: but chained and padlocked to their beds, fed once a 166 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: day at most, they got a shower twice a year 167 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: a year. I don't call anything about TVs being in there. Nothing, no, 168 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: absolutely and and you know, no contact with the outside world. 169 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: It's amazing that that the the little girl, the teenager 170 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: knew how to use the cell phone in down nine one. 171 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: But the smaller children apparently were raised by the older children. 172 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: That's part of this, you know, quiverful movement is the 173 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: family was part of this movement that called for large families. 174 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: And David Turin's parents said that God called on them 175 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: to have more children. They were homeschooled. They completely shunned 176 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: the influences of outside world. The children were told to 177 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: memorize the Bible in its entirety. It was a lot 178 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: of you know, psychological you know, to Dr Bethany Marshall, 179 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: l a psychoanalyst, why does God always get dragged into 180 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: these scenarios I'm pretty sure he slash she had nothing 181 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: to do with what these parents did to their children. 182 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I and I am not certainly not one 183 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: to quota scripture, but I do recall let the little 184 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: ones come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God. 185 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: In other words, children are the closest thing on earth 186 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: to the Angel. That's the way I take it. I 187 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: certainly don't think that UM includes pad locking them to 188 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: their beds and starving them and letting them lie there 189 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: in their own faeces. And you're in Dr Bethany Marshall. 190 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this. You probably don't, 191 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: but one night we were going live as usual on 192 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: our children show, and I had um was in a 193 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: fit because the previous night I had stayed with the children, 194 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: as you know, till the last second, and had bathed them, 195 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: lotion them, put them fresh dives, given them a ball, 196 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: and then sneaked or snuck anyway, creeped. I'll go with 197 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: creep since I know the correct tense. Thank you, thank 198 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: you out the door, and what I got home a 199 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,359 Speaker 1: few hours later. You know, the crosstown traffic in Manhattan 200 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: was crazy blah blah in those few hours, they had 201 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: each gotten a scorching case of diaper rash. How did 202 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: that happen so quickly? I do not know, but I 203 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: came in they were asleep. I didn't want to bother them. 204 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: I waited for about an hour, and then I went 205 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: in and checked them. They were It was awful. And 206 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: they cried and they cried and they cried. And the 207 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: next night I almost had to stay home from work, 208 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: but I couldn't bring myself to say I can't come 209 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: to work because the children have diaper rash. I knew 210 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: somewhere and deep in my psyche that that was wrong. 211 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: So I covered them in butt paste and did my 212 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: best so Dr Bethany. That's just after I guess it 213 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: was five hours they were it was. They were already 214 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: like red welts, and they looked like it was awful. 215 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: What about these children? I mean, how did they lying 216 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: God on what they were doing to their children? Lying 217 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: there because they couldn't get away from their beds and 218 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: urine and feces. I'm getting far afield of cadaver dogs. 219 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: And how many accounts, Jackie, how many felony accounts? Is 220 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: felon accounts? That's the latest. But how why are they 221 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: dragging God into it? They were no more homeschooling these 222 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: children than the man in the moon, Nancy. Because the 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: monster at the head of this family, the father, David Turpin, 224 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: was probably a sociopath. And as you know, these sociopaths 225 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: are so grandiose. They always think they have a direct 226 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: pipeline to God. They're speaking to God, They're in the 227 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: mouthpiece of God, and they use religiosity to course their 228 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: families and their children. And so I think this is 229 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: even worse than a house of horrors where the children 230 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: are malnourished. I keep thinking about the role of sadism 231 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: in how the children were treated, because they love to 232 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: torture these children. You know, according to one report, if 233 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: they got water above their wrists, they were punished because 234 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: they were then told that they were playing with water. 235 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: And I know I'm always bringing sex into these things, 236 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: but but sada Sadism is one of the five sexual perversions. 237 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: And so I think of sadism and sexual deviancy going 238 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: hand in hand. And I keep thinking that what we're 239 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: going to discover is that this was actually a sex cult, 240 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: that the father kept having more and more children so 241 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: that he could have sexual relations with them. It's just 242 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: a theory. This hasn't been substantiated, and that that we 243 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,359 Speaker 1: might even find that some of the children were fathered um, 244 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: that the father fathered other children with his own children, 245 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: because there's already one lewd sex act against a child 246 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: that was one of the charges. So I think that 247 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: sexual perversion and deviancy is going to be something that 248 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: UM emerges as a part of the story with his 249 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: family interrupt You know why, you just read my mind, 250 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, And I was just coming to you because 251 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: I have this on my list of new developments, but 252 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany just brought it up. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics 253 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University. Not only are they planning 254 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: to bring in cadaver dogs to the old two old 255 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: homes in the current home, but they're considering ordering d 256 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: n A. Now you heard what Dr Bethany was just 257 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: referring to, like um for instance, where some of these 258 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: children fathered by other children, but also were they kidnapped, 259 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: where any of them kidnapped. If you look at them, 260 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: they have a startling similarity. I don't see a kidnap 261 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: going down, but DNA testing. How difficult is that going 262 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: to be? Well? With the uh the current children, uh, 263 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: the ones that are living. Uh, it's it's not going 264 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: to be very difficult. And this is this is one 265 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: of the things that police and now I was gonna 266 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: I was I was reading Dr Bethany's mind on this 267 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: as well, because this uh psycho sexual thing that's going 268 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: on where they're keeping these kids sequestered. I remember covering 269 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: a couple of cases like this in the past. Um, 270 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: you've got this this kind of intermingling, uh, potentially, let 271 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: me just put it in the let me couch it. 272 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: In these terms, if I was investigating a case similar 273 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: to this, UM, I would look long and hard at 274 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the DNA of the older children, uh compared to that 275 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: of the younger children in this particular case, because I 276 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: want to make sure that there was uh no interbreeding 277 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: going on, and that opens up an entire different can 278 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: of worms here. Oh man, you're not kidding, And they've 279 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: got to be super careful with the DNA because you've 280 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: got if this is true, the children's DNA is very 281 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: similar to the parents DNA, and if there was insists 282 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: going on the home, it's going to be a tricky affair, 283 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: but certainly nothing a DNA expert can't handle. Uh, here's 284 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: the good news. They're alive, they have life. They will 285 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: be in therapy probably the rest of their lives to 286 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: have anything close to a somewhat some of normalcy. But 287 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: they're alive, they survived. I mean to see grace. This 288 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories and we're bringing you the very latest 289 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and the developments in the so called House of horrors. 290 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: We're also learning the mamilet when she was just sixteen, 291 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: that the plan they planned to have even more children 292 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: than these thirteen because they wanted their own reality show. 293 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: It goes on and on. The homes the mom was 294 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: brought up in was extremely violent, when you're told by 295 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: an aunt. And then there's the disturbing parade of children. Occasionally, 296 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: like once every couple of years, they would be trotted 297 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: out in matching outfits, family photos taken, say at Disneyland, 298 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: or a renewal of vows for the parents in Vegas 299 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: and sent around disseminated specifically to give the appearance that 300 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: everything was just fine. Little did the world, including relatives, 301 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: know that behind those walls, the children were being tortured 302 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: day and night. You know I woke up this morning, 303 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, you know about five o'clock, Joe Scot, 304 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: what time do you get up? Well? Alan calls me 305 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: so early? You know I get up pre early, you know, 306 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: so I don't know, Jelly dearly about six thirty a m. 307 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: I guess. Oh, I'm gonna start calling you at five 308 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: o'clock to make sure you're up. Now, Dr Bethany, I'm 309 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: gonna let you have your your beauty leap, but chucking 310 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,239 Speaker 1: Scott you to Dr Jesse. I won't pick on you 311 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: yet since you're new today, but I think're gonna start 312 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: rousting you guys up at five o'clock with me to 313 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: try to get everything done. I envisioned having children, then 314 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: I got the blessing of twins. It's double time and 315 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: I need energy, and you know what I really want. 316 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: I want all the energy all day long. But fatigue, 317 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: getting worn out, exhausted happens, and as you age, it 318 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: gets worse and worse every year. When you're twinny, your 319 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: body has a natural ability for healthy circulation and energy, 320 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: but then that ability begins to decrease and you're tired. 321 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: So what can you do? Super beats. That's what you 322 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: can do to increase natural circulation and fight fatigue. 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Thank you, and now straight 340 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: back to Paris, California. As the saga unfolds of the 341 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: so called House of horrors. Now this is what we know. 342 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: To Dr Bethany Marshall. The mom elopes with this guy 343 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: when she's sixteen. I believe he's twenty four. There was, 344 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: according to the aunt on the maternal side, violence in 345 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: their home as they were growing up. Listen to what 346 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: the aunt says. There was abuse in your family, yes, 347 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: and you and your your family have been fairly open 348 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: about that in the week of this discovery. Can you 349 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: tell us a little about that. Yes, I'm a very 350 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: very close family member that we should have Sorry, it's okay, 351 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: we should have loved and truth he um abused my 352 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: mother and sexually abused my mother, and then um me 353 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: and Louise and a few of our cousins and the family. 354 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: That was a situation that was on one for me 355 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: and my sisters only because my mother had so much 356 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: abuse in her life. I think that she was still 357 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: going through it as an adult, and my mother still 358 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: took us around this person Um a lot and Louise, 359 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: and some people believe Louise that may have pleaded a 360 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: role because now we're being told that David is accused 361 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: of at least one lude act against a child under 362 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: the age of fourteen. Um, it's not an excuse, of course, 363 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: it's just a it's just a background piece of information. 364 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: Did you I know that you saw Louise being in Sorry, 365 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: it's painful to talk about the first time he talks 366 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: about it. So you have you have you outed publicly 367 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: the man who did this? No? Um, it's always been 368 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: a big secret in our family, and the adults in 369 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: our family protected him because he was family and there 370 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: was so much that went on with that, you know, 371 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: But it was always a dark family secret that he 372 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: did this. That's from NBC's Today Show. We also know 373 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: that statistically, if you grow up in a home with violence, 374 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: you're a home will be violent. How does this fit 375 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: in Dr Bethany attack that along with the fact we 376 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: now know the mom wants to have even more children 377 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: to have her own reality show? How bass ackwards is 378 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: that it certainly is Nancy. Well. First of all, the 379 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: fact that she was sixteen when when she married him 380 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: or when they got together, tells me that already he 381 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: had a fondness from miners. Okay, so that maybe goes 382 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: with a sex cult theory. Secondly, if she was exposed 383 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: to such a violence growing up, the idea of love 384 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: and violence was fused in her mind in some way 385 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: as if love and violence are one and the same. 386 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: So in her own recovery process, and hopefully she'll get 387 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: some treatment in while she while incarcerated, she'll have to 388 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: unlink the two because the two are very linked for her. 389 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: So with her upbringing where love and violence are fused, 390 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: and according to one report, I read that the children 391 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: in her home watched their own mother being raped. So 392 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: we have violence, love and sex being fused, which I 393 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: think is in some way got recreated in her own family. 394 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: I don't believe that she wanted more children to have 395 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: a reality TV show. She might be saying that she 396 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: she wanted more children to satisfy her husband's sexual cravings. 397 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: You know, people often say one thing and they mean another. Well, 398 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: listen to this to daughter Jesse Barelli, psychologists joining us 399 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: from University of California. She actually it. According to the 400 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: brother Billy Lambert quote. She used to say how they 401 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: would be perfect for TV and would often mention there'd 402 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: be a bigger hit than the reality show Kate plus eight. Jesse, Yeah, 403 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: I think I would try with Dr Bethany on this true. 404 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: I think that having a lot of CHALKMN for a 405 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: reality TV show is something that's said now more commonly, 406 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: and my guests would be that that's not the real reason, 407 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: but that it has something more to do with um, 408 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: either with Dr Bethy said, or with the the desire 409 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: to be needed by people who are helpless, which was 410 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: kind of where my mind goes when I think about 411 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: this case. To Chuck Roberts Crime Stories investigative reporter, is 412 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: it true that the two year old was never abused? 413 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: That's what the Riverside DA is saying, at least according 414 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: to the Washington Post, that that's why there were only 415 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: twelve child abuse charges brought, That the two year old 416 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: was apparently physically unharmed altogether. And you know, I keep 417 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: going back to what happened with the neighbors. You know, 418 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: the neighbors said that they saw them outside once in 419 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: a while, mowing the lawn and then doing right back 420 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: in the house. And they interviewed at a neighbor of 421 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: the Turpins in Texas, a guy named Rickary Vineyard, who said, 422 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: we thought about reporting them for child abuse, but because 423 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: David Turpin was armed and did target practice outside, we 424 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: didn't want any repercussions. So neighbors had an idea, at 425 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: least in two places, that something was terribly wrong. What 426 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: do you make of it? Dr Bethany Marshall, l a 427 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: psychoanalysts to that they would also dress the children up, 428 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: for instance, in matching I guess that's when they got 429 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: there by annual shower, dress them up for instance matching 430 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: Disney T shirts, and take them and pose at Disney, 431 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: then be there for the day, then take them back 432 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: home and chain them back to their beds. That must 433 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: have been excruci adding for the children to see another 434 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: world for one day and then go back to a 435 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: dark bedroom with the windows shutter chained to your bed, 436 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: lying in faces. Well, I I don't understand that it's 437 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: so cruel, but it's it's actually quite perplexing. I've been 438 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: looking at the photos thinking, like, what what motivated the 439 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: parents to take the kids out of hiding. Um, maybe 440 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: for a Facebook post, maybe to cover up all the 441 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: sadism that was going on in the household. Maybe as 442 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 1: a part of the father's own grandiosity. Maybe he just 443 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: wanted a photo to prove that he was the head 444 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: of the household. But I think that what we're going 445 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: to learn is that Ultimately, this is what saved the 446 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: children's lives because, as Um, I think the reporter said 447 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: earlier in the show, it's sort of surprising that the 448 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: child who escaped knew how to use the cell phone 449 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: or even new to escape, or knew that there was 450 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: another world out there. So I think unwittingly, you know, 451 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: the parents, you know, dressing the kids up, taking them 452 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: to Disneyland exposed them to the idea that they were 453 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: living in an upside down world. Without that Nancy, maybe 454 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: they would never have even known to try to seek help. 455 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: There is a former classmate of one of the older 456 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: sons who was tortured in their California home, who spoke 457 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: about what she observed. Angie Parents reveals he had the 458 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: older son had a quote sadness in his face and 459 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: eyes that once she saw him at a class pot 460 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: look and he just scarfed down the food. An introvert 461 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: who always wore the same clothes all semester. She would 462 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: he would be taken to school and the mom would 463 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: wait for him to come out, and he had to 464 00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: come straight to the car. Now, that was the old 465 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: one of the older sons, and they were enrolled in 466 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: a course at Mount San Jacinto College, and that was 467 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: years ago. He wouldn't even make eye contact. What does 468 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: that say to you? Dr Jesse Barelli wearing the same 469 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: clothes every day, I guess I could be accused of 470 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: that quiet and not making any eye contact. And when 471 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: they did have food one day, a potluck get together, 472 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: he just gorged himself. I think what it says to 473 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: me is a number of things. That one of them 474 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: is that the parents were so successful in making the 475 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: children afraid of the outside world, but this kid is 476 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: scared to even meet the eyes of another person, you know. 477 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: I think that here and several people commented on how 478 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: how is it that they've children like the house and 479 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: didn't reach out to someone? Right? So those outings to Disneyland? 480 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: How did they not make contact or tell people that 481 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: they were being held captive? And I think that the 482 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: psychological control was maybe more powerful even than the physical 483 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: control that these parents exerted. You know a lot of 484 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: people have made uh much you do by the fact that, 485 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: for instance, in that case, when he would be allowed 486 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: to go to a one hour class and the mom 487 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: would watch him go in and wait for him to 488 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: come out like a hawk. But many people have argued 489 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: Dodger Bethany Marshall. Why didn't he or some of the 490 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: other children say something about their torture when they were 491 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: at Disneyland. But if you will remember, for instance, Dylan 492 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: and Shasta Gronie, who were witnesses to their one of 493 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: their parents murder, along with other people in the home, 494 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: they were kidnapped. They were brutally molested day after day 495 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: after day in front of each other. The little boy, 496 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: Dylan was the murder. His sister saw that. The Shasta, 497 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: the little girl was spotted on closed circuit TV inside 498 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: of seven eleven, very afraid, looking down. She wouldn't make 499 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: eye contact with anyone. And the perpetrator was there in 500 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: the in the seven eleven with her, and she was 501 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: wandering up the aisles. She never said a word. Then 502 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: there's like Sean Hornback. Do you remember Sean Hornback and 503 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: being by Hornback. They were both taken off their bicycles 504 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: in a very rural area as I recall, it may 505 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 1: have been Idaho. But they were kidnapped and Hornback was 506 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: kept for years and molested and beaten and tortured by 507 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: a guy, a horrible, horrible guy. Michael Devlin in Kirkwood. 508 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: That's where it was. Kirkwood. He when he was a 509 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: few times he was released, he wouldn't say anything. There's 510 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: a reason for that, Dr Bethany. And not only that 511 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: with hornback, that the boy would um ride his bicycle 512 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: around in the complex where they lived, where he was 513 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: away from the captor, and even then he did not 514 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: seek help. So I think that what we see in 515 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: these cases is that there's a particular type of mind control, 516 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: and that is that the captor makes the victim feel 517 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: quite paranoid of the outside world. They tell the victim 518 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: if you escape or you try to seek help, it's 519 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: going to be worse for you out there than it 520 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: is here. Those people they'll kill you, they'll torture you. 521 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: They're not going to believe you. It's your fault. You're 522 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: going to end up in jail, not me. And these 523 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: types of messages are just drilled into the brains of 524 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: the victims so that they actually become more scared of 525 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: the outside world than of the own captor. And then 526 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: to the other psychologist was making the point of these 527 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: dependent relationships. You know, no victim is filled with solely 528 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: bad feelings about the captor. In other words, they usually 529 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: have a mix of positive and negative feelings towards the captor, 530 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: so they are bonded with the captors, and so the 531 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: idea of then leaving that person sometimes makes them feel, 532 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, quite anxious and depressed, as if they don't 533 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: know how they're going to survive in the world without them. 534 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: What do we know? Also to you, Chuck Roberts, crib 535 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: storys investigative reporter about dead animals being found um in 536 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: and around the home. And I also learned that from 537 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: a guy named Ricky Vineyard, a guy who is a 538 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: tree feller. He said that they were dead dogs and cats. 539 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: That was in Texas. Yes, and they did find animals, 540 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: deceased animals in inside the house. But oddly enough to 541 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: multese terriers were found in the home in California, in Paris, California, 542 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: in better condition than the children um that they had 543 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: been taken care of. So, you know, it's I think 544 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: a lot of this is going to come out in 545 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: the journals. According to the d A Mike Esthern, they 546 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: recovered hundreds of journals from inside the children's home, so 547 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: that's probably going to be part of the evidence. What 548 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: what what motivated them? And one other point, if you, 549 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: if you allow me, The Department of Education says that 550 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: David Turpin opened what was called the Sandcastle Day School, 551 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: a K through twelveth school, a private school in eleven 552 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: It will be interesting to see whether anybody from the 553 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: outside world was a student at that school or whether 554 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 1: that was just for his own children. Well, we learned 555 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: and in one of the homes to Chihuahua dogs were 556 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: found malnourished and the only way they could survive was 557 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: from eating faced from amount of soiled diapers in a 558 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: trailer behind the property where the children slept. That's how 559 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: the two little chihuahuas lived, and the current home in California, 560 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: the two year old and the dogs were fine. We 561 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: learned that they allegedly, I can only even say it 562 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: would starve their children, to weaken them and assert power, 563 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: then taunt them by displaying desserts that they could eat, 564 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: but the children couldn't have. They were shackled and beaten 565 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: for even simple minor perceived not real in fractions. That's 566 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: what's happening now as we follow the so called House 567 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: of Horrors investigation. I want to pause now and thank 568 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: our partners making our investigation today possible. Here on se 569 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: Essex two it's legal Zoom, and now that the holidays 570 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: are over, it's time to buckle down and write your 571 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: own story for two thousand eighteen. Legal Zoom can help 572 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: you make this the year you finally get serious and 573 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: launch and run your own business. Or they can help 574 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: you rest easier at night knowing your family's future is 575 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: taken care of by you manning up and making the 576 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: right estate plan. As a matter of fact, legal Zoom 577 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: has been helping people just like us take care of 578 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: business and make their dreams come true over sixteen years. 579 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: It's not a law firm, but legal Zoom has the 580 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: resources to keep you on the right path, including advice 581 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: from a nationwide network of independent lawyers all your fingertips. 582 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: Whether you want to take your business to the next level, 583 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: start your business, or finally take control of your family's 584 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: future with an estate plan, legal Zoom lugs into your 585 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: life without billable hours stacking up behind your back because 586 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 1: at legal Zoom, all pricing is up front. Right your 587 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: own two thousand eighteen success story at legal zoom dot 588 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: com now for special savings. Inter promo code Nancy in 589 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: a n C Y in the referral box that check 590 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: out legal Zoom where life meets legal legal zoom dot com, 591 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot com. Thank you not only for what 592 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: you do for Americans across the country every single day, 593 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: but for being our partner here on serious Sex and 594 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: Now we travel to Alabama. Police hot on the trail 595 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: of an Alabama mom and wife who was found murdered. 596 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: Now here's the twist. Kathleen don West found dead outside 597 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: her home in a very quiet and up, I'm looking 598 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: at the house right now. It's beautiful. Um found dead 599 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: outside her home in a quiet bedroom community is just 600 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: south of Birmingham. She only had on her sports bra. 601 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 1: I don't know where the rest of her clothes were 602 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: found dead. And this is what we're discovering. This mom, 603 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: she's just she looks like a model. Had a secret life, 604 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: a secret life going down this full time wife and mother. 605 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: But two Scott Kibler joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. 606 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: What can you tell me? What did you learn about 607 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 1: her so called secret life? Well, her secret life wasn't 608 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,399 Speaker 1: all that much of a secret. She had a double life, 609 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: if you will, um where she had an explicit adult 610 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: website and was very active on Twitter and on Facebook 611 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: with posting explicit photos. Wait wait wait wait wait wait 612 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: wait wait explicit because all I'm saying are shots of 613 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: her would like some skimpy shorts on and maybe a 614 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: push up sports bra. Is there more to it than that? 615 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: Because I don't call that explicit. I see people jogging 616 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: and that in fact, I'm holding up my left hand. 617 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: Hold on, let me hold up my other left hand. 618 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 1: I play guilty to running in shorts in a sports bral. 619 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: Of course, Bethany, that was many, many years ago. Now 620 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: it's all I can do to like walk a fast 621 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: walk at best is certainly not in shorts and a 622 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: sports bra. To the humiliation of my children, that's not 623 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: gonna happen. But well, is there something wrong with that, 624 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: Scott Kimbla, Is that explicit to You's not entirely explited? No, 625 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: but she did have an adult website that actually charged 626 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: for access, and that is described as a sexually explicit 627 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: material website, and an adult website where she went by 628 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: the name Kitty Cat West. Wait a minute, did you 629 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,919 Speaker 1: just say kitty Cat West. Yes, Kitty Cat West. Okay, 630 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you say to just to make 631 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: you say it. But wait a minute, I'm getting way 632 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: far afield. Joseph's got Morgan. I don't give a flying 633 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: fig if this lady went by the name kittyicat west Or. 634 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: I don't care about her website or her bush a 635 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: bra or anything else. I care about who killed this woman. 636 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: But apparently police are paying great attention to this website 637 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: thinking that may have something to do with her murder. 638 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you this. Uh, if some kok was 639 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: onto her website and then she was so naive as 640 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: to somehow let it slip where she actually lived, I 641 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: could see a connection. Joseph's got Morgan. What do we 642 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: know about her body? Let's start with the murder and 643 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: not the Kitty Cat west a k A alias hit 644 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: me Joe Scott. I want to know about the murder. Yeah, 645 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: she was. She was found outdoors, uh and in in 646 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: in the sports brale that you had mentioned, Uh, facedown 647 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: and she's got a m some type of injury to 648 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: her head. We know that she was bleeding from the head, 649 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: but to this point we don't really know what the 650 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: nature or the origin of this injury is. I can 651 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: guarantee you one thing. Joseph's got more. You know let 652 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: me go to another woman who can just you know, 653 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: talk some sense into you, gentlemen. Dr Bethany Marshall l 654 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 1: a psychoanalyst. I guarantee you she didn't walk outside without 655 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: any pants on. Let's just start with which makes this, 656 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: which puts a whole another spin on this. Let's just 657 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: say she wasn't mugged. This wasn't a random drive by. Okay, no, 658 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: And it's so strange because she's found outside, face down, 659 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: nothing but a sports bra um. Somebody who wants to 660 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: be viewed online is being beautiful. She she fills herself 661 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: as an exhibitionist, is not going to go outside and 662 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: present herself to the world like that. I mean, she 663 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: not gonna want to be seen like that. This is 664 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman. Something. I think something happened either in 665 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: the middle of the night or in that home where 666 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: she was either attacked or dragged outside, and um that 667 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: that the crime. In other words, the crime started somewhere else, 668 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: started in the home, started in a car, started in 669 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: some other location, and she tried to escape and that's 670 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: where she ended up outside the house on the sidewalk. Okay, 671 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: Joseph's got Morgan. Now that Bethany Marshall and I have 672 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: schooled you and your forensics analysis of this. Let's hear 673 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: the rest of your thoughts. Yeah, we're not going to 674 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: know a lot until we're, uh, we're made aware of 675 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: what the specific injuries are. All we know at this 676 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 1: point in tom And all that they've released is that 677 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 1: there's blood, uh, emanating from her head and they don't 678 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: even give a specific location relative to her head. What 679 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: was really kind of interesting is that there was a 680 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: cell phone that was found adjacent to the body, along 681 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: with some type of green bottle as it's being characterized. 682 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: Uh so, uh, a lot is going to be told 683 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: by uh, you know, if they can tie back the 684 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: ownership of this phone if it was hers, why would 685 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: she be dressed like this outside or lack of being 686 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: dressed outside and her cell phone is there? Uh, you know, 687 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: there's any number of scenarios that I'm sure that the 688 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: police are looking at, and they're playing this kind of 689 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: close to the best. Joining me, Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst 690 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: out of l A. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor 691 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University and joining me Scott Kimbler Crime 692 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter Alan Duke from l A and Jackie 693 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: Howard in Atlanta to you, Scott Kimbler, I want to 694 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: go through the facts again. Do we know what time 695 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: of the day or night her body was found? Fancy? 696 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: Her body was found at actually five am in the 697 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: morning on a Saturday in this town, the miles south 698 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 1: of Birmingham. You know this is a murder mystery surrounding 699 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: a full time wife and mother who allegedly leads a 700 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: double life as an online exhibitionist with a fift a 701 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 1: month subscription website. She's found half clothed in the street 702 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: near her Alabama home, a very upscale neighborhood south of Birmingham. 703 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: Facedown next to her was a cell phone and a bottle. 704 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: We don't know what the bottle was about. She was 705 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: still wearing a sports bra and bleeding from the head. 706 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: For all I know, she was out jogging. I don't know. 707 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: There are hundreds of photographs and videos on her page. 708 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 1: Did someone follow her home from her gym? Did someone 709 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: figure out where she lived? On Facebook? She appeared to 710 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,879 Speaker 1: be like every other soccer mom, a mother of one 711 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: daughter with a happy marriage. We believe her husband was 712 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,439 Speaker 1: in the military. We were not sure about that right now, 713 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: but we do know that she's been found dead. Her 714 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 1: mother has made a public plea for the world to 715 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: let them bury her in peace. They I'm really hurting 716 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,439 Speaker 1: for right now is the daughter and the husband. I've 717 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: got a pretty good idea, Dr Bethany. The daughter had 718 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: no idea about her mom, but her mom did while 719 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: she was at school. And overarching is the loss of 720 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: your mother. The loss of the mother her mother, and 721 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: in such a cruel and brutal way. And Nancy, as 722 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: you know, now, there's this huge Facebook community that has 723 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: assembled to try to crack the crime. And I was 724 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: reading a little bit some of the posts of this 725 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: Facebook community. They're they're talking about her line activities, They're 726 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: talking about her being Kitty Kat West, They're they're wondering 727 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: if she was stalked by a fan. Now, in our 728 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,919 Speaker 1: digital age, this daughter is potentially going to read all 729 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,359 Speaker 1: of this. On top of the suffering of losing her 730 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: own mother. The mother's reputation is going to be drugged 731 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: through the mud, and the fact that the mother is 732 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 1: a victim kind of gets lost in the sauce. Sometimes 733 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: in these kinds of cases. So so the daughter is 734 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,760 Speaker 1: not only missing, has lost her own mother, but now 735 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: her whole conception of who her mother was is something 736 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: that she's going to be working through in the middle 737 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: of her grief. I mean, it's such a tragedy, you know, 738 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: thinking about what Bethany is saying. Because you know, Joseph Scott, Morgan, 739 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: both of you guys know my children. They very rarely 740 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: got to see the hill In program because it's all 741 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: about you know, real murdering crime. That's a lot different 742 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 1: from watching you know, and murder she wrote Our Monk. 743 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,360 Speaker 1: But once in a while they could see certain segments 744 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: and they would say, Joe Scott, mom, why are you 745 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,319 Speaker 1: so mean? Because it's completely the polar opposite of how 746 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: I am with them, believe it or not, I'm the pushover. 747 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: I'm the one playing ping pong at ten thirty at 748 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: night on a school night, and it's hard for them 749 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: to reconcile just that. And the other day, uh, something 750 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: happened at school with a ten point subtraction because the 751 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 1: children didn't bring in a water xylophone and a card 752 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: trick for a presentation. And I got an email the 753 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: night before claiming because of a snow date, they would 754 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 1: be due on Thursday night, Tuesday. So I convinced them 755 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: they didn't have to take them in. Well, guess what 756 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,479 Speaker 1: they did. Guess what the children said in the car, 757 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 1: just out the blue, Joe Scott, They go, Mom, please 758 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: don't slit her tires. I'm like, Lucy, why would you even? 759 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:15,399 Speaker 1: And so Lucy, we're not slitting tires because of course 760 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: we get caught. And there's cameras, j veillance cameras in 761 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: the partment. No, I said, it's wrong, but she sees 762 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: this on TV. I must have been talking about a stalker. 763 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what they saw me saying on TV, 764 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: but she can't was having our time with just with 765 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: that to reconcile what she saw for twenty minutes on 766 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,759 Speaker 1: TV with the me she's known for ten years who 767 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: lets her get away with everything, and it's now stuck 768 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: raising her guinea pigs. Okay, so can you imagine what 769 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: this little girl is going through? Joe Scott Morgan, No, No, 770 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: absolutely can't, Uh, Nancy, And this is something that she's 771 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: gonna have to bear. Just like Dr Bethany said, for 772 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: ages to come um um uh with this particular case. 773 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 1: As you well know, we've covered so many of these 774 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,479 Speaker 1: over our time together. Uh. The reality is is that 775 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,799 Speaker 1: if you have an individual that's in a domestic situation, 776 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,719 Speaker 1: they're married, they have close intimates, we always look at them. 777 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 1: But there's another layer to this Nancy, this woman is 778 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: uh is on the worldwide Web. UM, with this imagery 779 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,600 Speaker 1: out there. Now, whether it's perception or reality, there are 780 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: people that are out there that could consider her to 781 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: be one of their intimates. They could develop a particular 782 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: fixation on this woman. And as was mentioned earlier, if 783 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:49,240 Speaker 1: any information leaked out UM about her location, where she lived, 784 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,760 Speaker 1: who she associated with, this adds a very sinister level 785 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: to this because people might take, uh, take this fantasy 786 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,080 Speaker 1: to another level where they seek her out. So you 787 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: have to look in this particular case, not just at 788 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: the immediate intimates in her family group, but also these 789 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: individuals that she had contact with. And I would start 790 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,279 Speaker 1: to tell the truth. With the subscriber list that we're 791 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: talking about, well, we also know this UH with me 792 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: is Scott Kimler, Crime Stories investigative reporter Scott. We understand 793 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: that the neighbor's daughter was up early that Saturday morning, 794 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: going to work. The last time Dawn had been heard 795 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: from publicly was a seemingly normal Twitter tweet the night before. 796 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,839 Speaker 1: So the neighbor's daughter gets up to go to work 797 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: super early Saturday morning, and she sees Dawn in the 798 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: roadway and went back to get her father. The father goes. 799 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: He says Don West was faced down, partially in the 800 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: grass and partially in the street. Does that mean she 801 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: had been out jogging in the early morning hour. He 802 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: touched her back to see if she was breathing, and 803 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,319 Speaker 1: she was not. She was, as we know, only wearing 804 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: a sports brought bleeding from the head. A cell phone 805 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: was nearby, and a green liquor bottle was on top 806 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 1: of the cell phone as if it had been placed there. 807 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: So this is somebody's staging a scene now. The husband, 808 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: according to the neighbor, was briefly brought out on the 809 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 1: same neighbors call nine one one. We don't know if 810 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: the daughter was in the home, the little girl or not. 811 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,279 Speaker 1: So let me ask you, Scott Kimbler, what more do 812 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: we know in the search for a killer. The police 813 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,520 Speaker 1: in Killara, Alabama, been very quiet about this. The media 814 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: has tried to question police about this, but we have 815 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 1: not gotten very many answers at all out of Police 816 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,759 Speaker 1: Chief Shawn Lemley joining me, also Alan Duke from l 817 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,439 Speaker 1: A Alan, what can you tell me about meta data? Well, 818 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 1: a lot of journalists who use Twitter to cover news 819 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,520 Speaker 1: know that if you click in the right place on 820 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,680 Speaker 1: a lot of tweets, you can actually figure out where 821 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 1: the tweet was tweeted from. Geographically, you can PenPoint where 822 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: she is when she's tweeting. And she was very active 823 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,480 Speaker 1: as as Kitty Cat West on Twitter, so that may 824 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: be one way that a killer could have found her. Well, 825 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: one more thing, Dr Bethany Marshall, of course you always 826 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: look at the spouse first. I have a strong suspicion. 827 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if leaving the wife out 828 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 1: on the street would be the m O of a 829 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: spousele homicide. No, I don't feel that the husband is 830 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,400 Speaker 1: responsible for this. And the reason for that, Nancy, is 831 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: that she was very public with this persona this Kitty 832 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,080 Speaker 1: Cat West, which tells me that she was not in 833 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:55,319 Speaker 1: an abusive relationship. Abusive men are very jealous, So the 834 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: profile of a husband who is this tolerant that he 835 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: allows her to have this kind of um, we're calling 836 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: it a double life, but not really. If she's tweeting 837 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,600 Speaker 1: it out and she has followers, is somebody who's quite 838 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 1: um generous in terms of allowing her to have her 839 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,840 Speaker 1: own activities and make money however she wants. So I 840 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: don't see this as a part of a domestic violence 841 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,800 Speaker 1: or domestic homicide situation. I need to know more before 842 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: I can pay it either way. But I do know 843 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: there are no suspects and there are no persons of 844 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: interest in this case. But I again emphasize what Dawn's 845 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,839 Speaker 1: mother has said. Please give them your prayers and your 846 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: support as they go through the horrible time of burial, funeral, grieving, 847 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,799 Speaker 1: especially in light of the little girl left behind. If 848 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: you know anything about the brutal murder of Dawn Martin West, 849 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: please call two oh five six six three five zero 850 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:02,959 Speaker 1: five to zero five six six eight three zero five. 851 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crimes Tories signing off, goodbye, friend M.