1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: And welcome back, George Norry with you John Katruba with 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 2: US Award winning author creative writing instructor at Ohio University. 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: He has investigated more than one hundred hounded locations around 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: the world. A frequent speaker about the paranormal at conferences, libraries, 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: and universities as well. His books include The Bottle Conjurer 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 2: books one and two, Shape Shifters A History, and Ghost Hunters. John, 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: Welcome back. How have you been, hey, Jeorce. Good to 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 2: hear from you. 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm doing good. How about you? 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: Oh God, good looking forward to this. How did you 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: get involved in investigating shape shifters? 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 3: Well, I kind of grew out of all my work 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 3: with ghost hunting. My first couple of books are about 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 3: ghosts primarily, and I give a lot of public talks 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: at libraries and universities and on shows like yours. Fact, 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 3: they've been on your shows many times talking about ghosts. 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 19 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 3: And what I noticed was that a lot of people 20 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: in the audience which start asking me about other events 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 3: that they were having or incidents, and they never sounded 22 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 3: like ghost experiences. They sounded more like shape shifters. So 23 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 3: I started just looking into the research on that and 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 3: basically discovered that the shape shifter character or shape shifter 25 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 3: types are ubiquitous. I mean, they appear in cultures all 26 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 3: around the world and have from ancient times to today. 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 3: And so you know, people talk about having experiences. There's 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: been newspaper reports about experiences with shape shifters, and also 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: it just kind of all started, like I said, out 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: of the ghost hunting experience, but it was an interesting 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: side avenue and was interesting thing to write about. 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: For sure, what exactly John is a shape shifter. 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: So when I talk about a shape shifter, what I'm 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: saying is that it is a person who has the 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: ability to transform him or herself into something other than human. 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: Usually it's an animal, but it could sometimes in certain cultures, 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 3: shape shifters can shift into inanimate objects. Other cultures, you 38 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 3: can shift into another person, so it's you know, and 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 3: then you have the ability to transform back, So it's 40 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: something basically under your will. While I also talk about 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 3: shape shifters, especially in mythology, who were cursed to be 42 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 3: shape shifters, it wasn't something they wanted or something they 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: could control. But so it's a I kind of used 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: the term in a broad spectrum way. 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: What creates the shape shifter? How does it happen? 46 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question. I mean again, I think 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: if we're talking about some of the ancient stories, like 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 3: from Greek and Roman mythology, it's that the gods have 49 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: the ability to curse somebody and change them into whatever 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: they want, and that poor person does not have the 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 3: ability to transform themselves. But then when you look at 52 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 3: later times, like getting up into the medieval era and 53 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: even to today, the focus shifts on responsibility, and it 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: seems like certain people whatever have the ability, you know, 55 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: whether it's whether it's a magical ability, or whether it's 56 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: some natural biological ability, if perhaps they're aliens or whatever, 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: that allows them to actually make that transformation on their own. 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: How it happens you know, specifically, I don't know. We 59 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: have a lot of good indications in movies. I'm the 60 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: American Werewolf in London. Watching that transformation was pretty horrendous, 61 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: and I don't think anybody would want to go through 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: that voluntarily. 63 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: Would you say? Dracula was a shape shifter too? 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: So that's interesting, George, because the original Dracula. In ram 65 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 3: Stoker's novel, it wasn't clear that he was shape shifting, 66 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: although at one point Jonathan Harker, one of the main characters, 67 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 3: looks out the window of Dracula's castle and sees Dracula 68 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: sort of crawling, actually crawling down the castle wall outside. 69 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: You know, how do you have that ability unless there's 70 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: something almost like a lizard? Right, And at another point 71 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: in Dracula the novel, a bat appears to Lucy and 72 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: it's the indication is that it is probably Dracula. So yeah, 73 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 3: the classic Dracula was a shape shifter, although it wasn't 74 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: brought out as much as it is today in popular 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: movies and novels about vampires that seemed to shape shift 76 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 3: pretty routinely. So I think Stoker, ram Stoker, started that 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 3: and it took you know, it took life of its 78 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 3: own with modern interpretations of vampires. 79 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: Is there a lot of interest john in shape shifting? 80 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 3: I think so. And I think it's I think it's 81 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 3: because the shape shifter character kind of speaks to something 82 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: universal in all of us, which is the desire for 83 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 3: transformation on a very simple scale, very simple scale. Some people, 84 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 3: maybe a child is unhappy because he doesn't feel like 85 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,239 Speaker 3: he's smart enough or strong enough than the other kids, 86 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: or something like that. So he has maybe a desire wishing. 87 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: You know, boy, what if I had super strength, you 88 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: know which like Superman? Or what if I could you know, 89 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: change into something that would be more powerful, something out 90 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: of me. So I think there's I think we all 91 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: have a desire or at times, to want for transformation, 92 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: to want for change, something better usually. So I think 93 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 3: that's part of why the shape shifter character is so popular, 94 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: because it speaks to something I think within our own psyches, 95 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: whether we act on that or not, I think it's there. 96 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: How many different kinds of shape shifters are there? Many? 97 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: How many? 98 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: How many stars are there in the multiverse. Yeah, that 99 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: was the biggest surprise to me, George. When I was 100 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: doing research for the book, I was in like seven 101 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: different countries and just doing a lot of research here 102 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: in the US and doing a lot of academic research, 103 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: And what I found was that there were innumerable types 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: of shape shifters. Some cultures had one hundreds of Japan 105 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 3: for instance, I don't know how many shape shifters they have, 106 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 3: but yeah, so I couldn't give you a number. There's 107 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 3: literally hundreds. And if he went through my book shape 108 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 3: Shifters a History, if you actually looked, you know, page 109 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: by page, wrote down each different shape shifter that you 110 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: found in that book, you'd probably come across a couple 111 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: of hundred just you know, just in that one. 112 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: Book shape Shifting Characters or you know, Clutchers. Do you 113 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: remember the TV show Tom Terrific. I do. I love 114 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: that he had a funnel on his head, an upside 115 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: down funnel, but he was a shape shifter. 116 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And I'm not sure I always wanted 117 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: about that funnel. Was that funnel it somehow gave him 118 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: that power? I mean, why would you wear a funnel 119 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: on your head? 120 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: You know? 121 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: I think it just was some kind of design on him. 122 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: But he was able to shift into He could have 123 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: been a table, a chair, he was anything, and they 124 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: always had his little face on whatever object he shifted into. 125 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: Right right, So he was Actually when I mentioned Japan earlier, 126 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: he was more typical of a Japanese shape shifter because 127 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 3: in a lot of Japanese folklore and mythology, a lot 128 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: of the shape shifting is into inanimate objects rather than 129 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: a person or animals. I mean, those are there too, 130 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: but they are one of the more unusual cultures that 131 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: have shape shifters transforming into a table or a broom 132 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: or a chair or something along those lines. 133 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: What is the difference, John, between an external and internal 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: shape shifter. 135 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a distinction George, that I made in my book. 136 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: And what I was trying to point out was that 137 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: there are shape shifters like, for instance, the werewolf. You know, 138 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: a shape shifting transformation that is evident. I mean you 139 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: can see that, right. You see a person literally change 140 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 3: into something shaggy with claws and fangs and whatever. It 141 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 3: turns into a wolf. So that's an external shape shifter 142 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: where you actually see a physical change. But I wrote 143 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: about other types of shape shifters, and again the book 144 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: has broad spectrum when I talk about shapeshifter, So the 145 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: other ones that I talked about were shapeshifting transformations that 146 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 3: were not evident to the eye. So in other words, 147 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 3: these were people who internally transformed or believed they transformed. 148 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: A good example I talked about werewolves again during the 149 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: I guess home the seventeenth century, there were it seemed 150 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 3: like a plague of werewolf's activity in France and Germany 151 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: and a couple other countries and what was going on, 152 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 3: and no one is really sure sort of how this happened. 153 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 3: Is people were acting out as though they had transformed 154 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: into wolves. So there was there were cases of people 155 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: that were brought to you know, brought the trial and 156 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 3: executed for what they called where wolf were and there 157 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: was no physical evidence. I mean, you couldn't see them change, 158 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: and yet these people would growl, they would crawl around 159 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: on all fours, run around on all fours. Some of 160 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: them attacked people and little literally murdered people, tearing them 161 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: apart with their hands and sometimes eating them, devouring them, uh, 162 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: you know, as human beings. I mean you would see 163 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: a guy on his all fours, you know, tearing somebody apart, 164 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: but there was nothing physical that you saw. Yet that 165 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 3: person believes if he had transformed into a where into 166 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: a were wolf or into a wolf and was acting 167 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: out that way. So to my mind, that's like an 168 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 3: internal transformation. There's definitely a transformation. Person changed mentally believed 169 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: that he had changed. So I was trying to make 170 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 3: that distinction, you know, because I think that to me, 171 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: that's a type of shape shifter as well. 172 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: John Katuba with us. His website is linked up at 173 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: coasticoastdam dot com. Couple of his books include The Bottle 174 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 2: Conjurer Books one and two and shape Shifters, a history 175 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 2: that he wrote back several years ago as well, John, 176 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: when you did your research for shape shifting? How did 177 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: you start? Where'd you go? Well? 178 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 3: First thing I did was I looked at some of 179 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: the some of the older texts that were written. There 180 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: was one written by a priest back in the Wow 181 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: I guess like sixteen hundreds, and he was actually on 182 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 3: a mission to catalog all the types of sort of 183 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: what I call him paranormal entities. I guess that existed 184 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: throughout Europe because you know, it was pretty much that 185 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: was all the work of the devil versus is the 186 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 3: work of God, you know, so as a preet he 187 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: was cataloging all these things. And his text has a 188 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 3: lot of shape shifting in there as well as other 189 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: kinds of creatures. But that was my original source was, 190 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: you know, ancient texts and some modern books that just 191 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: kind of talked about the variety of shape shifters where 192 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: they were found, well, culture, that kind of stuff. So 193 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: that was the basis for my initial research. But from there, 194 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 3: like I said, I traveled a lot. I was in 195 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: seven countries in Europe, and I went to locations that 196 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: had a history of some type of shape shift for activity. 197 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: So for instance, I was in France where they had 198 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 3: something called the Beast of Jevadong, which was a huge 199 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 3: canine like creature that terrorized the south of France for 200 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 3: about two years and killed at least one hundred people, 201 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: and many many people in that time in that era 202 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: believed it to be a werewolf. So you know, I 203 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: went to places like that. I went to Romania and 204 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: did a lot of research on Dracula, you know, and 205 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: Vlade Tepish, who was sort of a model for Dracula 206 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: in the novel. They went to locations there where supposed, 207 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: you know, vampire activity was taking place and stuff like that. 208 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: So yeah, and then of course you know, talk to 209 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: many many people that either you know, had experiences or 210 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 3: were other authorities in the field. So it was it 211 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: was a great book to write. It was a lot 212 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 3: of fun and the research was pretty heavy. 213 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: Now I'm glad the Impaler was quite a dude, was 214 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: he not. 215 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's one way of putting it. Yeah, he had. 216 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 3: He had this reputation of being a pretty bloodthirsty medieval 217 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 3: rule prince of Wallachia, which is today part of Romania. 218 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,119 Speaker 3: And you know, his favorite means of torturing and executing 219 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: people was impalement. And at one point, when the Turkish 220 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: army was invading his dominions, he had captured something like 221 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: a thousand Turkish soldiers or something, and he had them 222 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: impaled on stakes all along the road leading to his capital. 223 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 3: And the story goes that when the Turkish army started 224 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: coming up that road to invade his capital and they saw, 225 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: you know, a thousand or so of their fellow soldiers impaled, 226 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: they turned around and they left. He had this reputation 227 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: of being bloodthirsty. But you know, I'm not sure he 228 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: was any less blood thirsty than any sort of medieval 229 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 3: prince of his time. 230 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: You know. 231 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: But the legends about him being a vampire they started 232 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: many years, many many years after his death, and I 233 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 3: don't know sort of which came first. I don't know 234 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: if Bram Stoker's novel about Dracula, which is sort of 235 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: based on Vlawed, if that inspired talk about Vlawed as 236 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: a vampire, or whether those legends were already around. There 237 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 3: were legends earlier on some about him being perhaps you know, 238 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 3: a vampire sometime ingesting blood or something, which would maybe 239 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: technically make him a shape shifter. So Stoker may not 240 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: be that far off. But in any case, yeah, Vlod 241 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 3: was a bad dude, no how you look at it. 242 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: In your opinion, are shape shifters the real deal or 243 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: are they just mythological? 244 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: So in my opinion, I haven't found I personally haven't 245 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: found any evidence for them being real. I certainly have 246 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: found a lot of them in mythology and folk law 247 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: and even in religion, you know, and mythology. 248 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, they're there. 249 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: But having said that, I mean, there are certainly newspaper accounts, 250 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: modern day newspaper accounts of people having experienced a shape shifter, 251 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: seen one. So, you know, because I haven't experienced it, 252 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 3: I don't know what to say about other people who have. 253 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: When newspapers like the New York Times even reports, you know, 254 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: stories about shape shifters. So yeah, it's kind of I 255 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 3: guess it's kind of a con question. I just haven't 256 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: found that evidence that they're that they're real, But there 257 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: are certainly people I swear to that. 258 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: Weren't there biblical shape shifters too? 259 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were. I mean, that's that was That was 260 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 3: one of the more interesting little notes that I found 261 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: in the Book of Daniel. In the Old Testament, there's 262 00:16:53,760 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 3: a story about a king Nebka Danizer, who apparently affront's 263 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 3: God in some way and is punished for that. And 264 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: I'm just going to sort of, you know, summarize what 265 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: the Bible says, but basically it says something that he 266 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: was turned into a beast that had clause and had 267 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: fur and ate the more, ate the dew from the 268 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: grass as if he's on all fours, right. So I 269 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: don't know what kind of animal that was, but it's 270 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 3: very clear in that book that, you know, God punishes 271 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 3: Nevik and Danser by doing that. But the more interesting 272 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: things I found were in the New Testament, where there 273 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: is a theologian in the University of Antwerp in the 274 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 3: Netherlands who I quote him in the book. I have 275 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 3: a quote in front of me, but he interpreted an 276 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 3: ancient Coptic text that's in the Morgan Library in New 277 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 3: York and it's part of the New Testament, and it 278 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: talks about the area where this jew the Jewish Council 279 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: wants to arrest Jesus. So they're talking to Judas, and 280 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 3: Judas says, well, Jesus is going to be in the 281 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: garden because semine, you can get him there. And they say, well, 282 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 3: you know, how will we recognize him? And they say, 283 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: because sometimes he appears They go to a color scheme. 284 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 3: They say, sometimes he appears ruddy, sometimes he appears like wheat, 285 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 3: which would be like a white color. Sometimes he appears white. 286 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 3: And then they said, sometimes he appears young, sometimes appears old. 287 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 3: That's when Judas says, well, you know, the man that 288 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: I kiss on the cheek is the guy you want. 289 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: So but it's interesting in this interpretation by this theologian 290 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 3: that there's all these different types of Jesus, like he's this, 291 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: he's that. So is he shape shifting or is that 292 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 3: just a metaphor meaning that people sort of see him 293 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 3: in different light, you know, depending on the circumstance whatever. 294 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 3: But then you've got other things going on there too. 295 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: You have. 296 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 3: You know, the transfiguration where he goes up to the 297 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: mountaintop and he's like transfigured. His body they say, is glorified. 298 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 3: That's some kind of a transformation to something you know, ethereal, whatever, divine, 299 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: however you want to refer to it. So there's other 300 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 3: incidents like that, and I was surprised to see that 301 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 3: in the New Testament. 302 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 303 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam 304 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: dot com for more