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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you from house step words dot Com. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Molly. Molly. If

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Speaker 1: it were right now and not two thousand and eleven,

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Speaker 1: be a shock. And I wanted to be a flight

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Speaker 1: attendant on a Boeing Air Transport flight, one of the

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Speaker 1: only airlines that you could get from here to there

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Speaker 1: on back in the day. Yes, three things that would

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Speaker 1: prevent me from doing that. Oh are you sad, Kristen.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little sad. I could not become a sky

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Speaker 1: girl as they were called back in the day, because

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Speaker 1: I'm too old, I'm too tall, and I'm too fat.

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Speaker 1: But strikes I am so I'm so out. And were

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Speaker 1: you a nurse? I wasn't a nurse. I was trained

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Speaker 1: for CPR years ago. But Lord help you if you

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Speaker 1: choke on something standing next to me. Uh, you had

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Speaker 1: to be single, I mean, no problem. There are under

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Speaker 1: twenty five just aged out of that one. No taller

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Speaker 1: than five ft four, like five nine, and then you

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Speaker 1: could only weigh no more than a hundred and fifteen pounds.

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Speaker 1: And let's just say if I were five nine and

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Speaker 1: a hundred fifteen pounds, I would need a nurse. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: and in addition to meeting all those physical qualifications, you

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Speaker 1: had to be a nurse. Because in nineteen thirty, that's

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Speaker 1: when we have the first female flight steward. Previously it

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Speaker 1: was boys doing it, young young teenage boys, boy scout times,

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Speaker 1: cabin boys, cabin boys, um, which, like our voices imply,

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Speaker 1: has a different meaning now. But yes, when we get

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Speaker 1: the first airline stewardess as they were called back then,

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Speaker 1: working that Boeing Air Transport flight, it was a woman

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Speaker 1: named Ellen Church who wanted to be a pie let,

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Speaker 1: and uh, that was definitely a no go back in

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Speaker 1: the day. But she mentioned, haim a nurse, why don't

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Speaker 1: I fly along with you? And the people thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's good because people are kind of scared of flying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they should have been back in nineteen thirty. So why

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Speaker 1: don't we have nurses on flight so that people feel

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Speaker 1: safer and really skinny nurses, really thin short nurses. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I guess five ft four one fifteen. I don't know

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Speaker 1: the b M I on that, but it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's much healthier than than five nine one fifteen. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: Ellen Church is the world's first airline stewarts and check

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Speaker 1: this out. The flight is only from Oakland to Chicago, Oakland, California,

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Speaker 1: not that long, but it takes twenty hours and involves

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Speaker 1: thirteen stops along the way, So they needed someone on

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Speaker 1: there to uh, to help help that flight go smoothly.

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Speaker 1: So she becomes the first of what Bowing calls the

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Speaker 1: sky girls. These these very few women they hire who

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Speaker 1: meet certain fiscal requirements and who are nurses. But you

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Speaker 1: know this by the fact that they've hired these very petite,

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Speaker 1: small women being a Being a sky girl wasn't just

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Speaker 1: passing out the peanuts and pouring a coke. It was

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Speaker 1: like fueling up while the while the plane was on

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Speaker 1: the ground. It was pushing the plane into the hangar

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day. I mean it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a lot of work compared to what we

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Speaker 1: may think of. It's sort of the stereotypical stewardess. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of ironic that they mandated these very

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Speaker 1: petite women to be sky girls. But eventually, as as

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Speaker 1: the commercial airline industry took off, and they had more

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Speaker 1: crews to do that that manual labor for them. Sky

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Speaker 1: girls or stews as they became known as, really became

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Speaker 1: the in flight hostesses. Right. There was some there were

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Speaker 1: some training manuals that would tell the stewardess is to

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Speaker 1: pretend that they were the mother of the plane and

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Speaker 1: they were hosting a party for all their friends, and

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Speaker 1: that's how they should treat and serve all their guests.

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Speaker 1: And uh, those requirements about looks and appearance never go

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Speaker 1: away until the nineties semnies. Women who were serving as stewardesses,

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Speaker 1: which will use that term even though it becomes outdated

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, but they were young, they were slender,

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Speaker 1: they were attractive, they were white. They were the perfect

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Speaker 1: woman who will serve you a coke, no matter how

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Speaker 1: nasty you were being to her. Um and it became,

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Speaker 1: you know, this very stylized woman who was traveling the world,

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Speaker 1: becoming very cosmopolitan. But it was also a really nice

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Speaker 1: way to meet a potential husband. And the airline's kind

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Speaker 1: of had that in mind. They said, once you get married,

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Speaker 1: you have to retire. Once you have a baby, you

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Speaker 1: definitely have to retire, and once you turn thirty two,

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Speaker 1: you should retire. Yes, some airlines were a little more

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Speaker 1: liberal and let the women work until they were thirty five,

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Speaker 1: but definitely not after that. And in just to drive

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Speaker 1: home the idea of the role of the sky girls,

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Speaker 1: a female writer for Independent Woman magazine wrote that they

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Speaker 1: needed the skill of a nightingale, the charm of the

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Speaker 1: powers adele, and the kitchen wisdom of a fanny farmer.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one funny thing that happened a few

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Speaker 1: years ago. A few years before that Christen Is in

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Speaker 1: the Literary Digest. They were talking about how these perfect

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Speaker 1: women are serving as the stewardesses and these really smart

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Speaker 1: guys are serving as the pilot and if these people

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Speaker 1: met and had children, question, would it yield a superior

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Speaker 1: human being? Uh? Answer, that was a legitimate question posed

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Speaker 1: in ninety six about intermingling between these perfect women and

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Speaker 1: these uber masculine pilots. And speaking of posing, in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty five, United Stewardess Barbara Cameron poses for Playboy as

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Speaker 1: Miss December. And really with that we see this huge

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Speaker 1: sexual sexualization of the stewardess, the sexy stewardess who hasn't

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Speaker 1: heard about, you know, the old trope of the sexy stewardess.

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Speaker 1: I think Don Draper hooked up with a sexy he

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Speaker 1: did so where it's a it's a very big trope. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well they were. They were. It wasn't just a tripe

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Speaker 1: that I mean, it was based in reality because they

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Speaker 1: were hired based on their looks. They had to be

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Speaker 1: attractive women, and they were outfitted in attractive clothes. Which

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Speaker 1: airline was that. I think that at some point Pucci

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Speaker 1: was was designing their their uniforms. So these are pretty

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Speaker 1: much the most good looking women doing, you know, very

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Speaker 1: thankless task. It was often considered women's work. They aren't

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Speaker 1: paid much at all. They weren't paid much, but it

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Speaker 1: paid off in the end because you got to meet

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Speaker 1: a rich husband and guy who could afford to fly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then you wouldn't have to work again. Um. But you know,

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Speaker 1: as as time goes on, we hit the fifties and

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Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, women's right and rights movement starts to

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Speaker 1: come into being, and these ladies start to think, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not so awesome that I have to stop

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Speaker 1: working at thirty two, or if I gained ten pounds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they actually started unionizing pretty early on, I believe in

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Speaker 1: the by the by the middle late fifties, the stewardesses

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Speaker 1: were pretty well unionized. But yes was second way feminism.

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Speaker 1: These other things start to really eight on them, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe I want to work for more than two years,

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Speaker 1: which was the average career span of a flight attendant

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Speaker 1: at that time. And when they start having these thoughts like, hey,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not that cool that I always have to

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Speaker 1: have makeup on despite the fact that I'm flying twenty

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Speaker 1: out of twenty four hours. That's when the story collides

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Speaker 1: with male flight attendants who have sort of their own

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Speaker 1: stigma about them because, um, you know, while these women

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Speaker 1: were becoming so famous for being the ideal woman, it

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Speaker 1: became less common for men to work aboard flights, despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that this all got started with cabin boys. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four we have the Civil Rights Act,

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Speaker 1: which is past and very much by accident sort of. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Sex gets slipped into the Civil Rights Act in terms

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Speaker 1: of you can't you can't discriminate based on race or

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Speaker 1: your gender, and at the time, people who did not

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Speaker 1: politicians who did not want the Civil Rights Act pass

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Speaker 1: slipped sex into the legislation because they thought that that

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Speaker 1: would immediately stop it from moving forward. Yeah, jokes on

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Speaker 1: you racist. It passed, so, uh, these flight attendants in

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Speaker 1: their unions started to realize, hey, we can use the

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act to get this marriage clause struck, to

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Speaker 1: get the weight gain limitation struck. But to do so,

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Speaker 1: they had to bring in the male flight attendants, and

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Speaker 1: male flight attendants had a bad reputation at the time.

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Speaker 1: There was one case in nineteen fifty four when a

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Speaker 1: male steward was gunned down in Miami by two teenagers

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Speaker 1: who alleged that the steward had come on to them,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, it turned into robbery and went

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Speaker 1: back and they had to shoot him. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stereotypes that we have about male flight attendants

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Speaker 1: being gay comes from this one case in nineteen fifty four,

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Speaker 1: where because of the way it was drummed up in

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Speaker 1: the press, people started thinking, oh, man, all these male

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Speaker 1: stewards who want to be like these pretty ladies, they're

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Speaker 1: all they're all amosexual and we should fear them. And um,

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Speaker 1: you know, people who wrote uh newspaper stories about the

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Speaker 1: case often didn't question the morality of the two teenage killers,

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Speaker 1: the people who actually pull the trigger. It was all like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, this guy was awful. He was so depraved,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, anyone who does his profession must

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Speaker 1: be depraved because this is clearly a woman's work. Yes,

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Speaker 1: since he was homosexual, and one of the murderers claimed

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Speaker 1: in defense that he shot him because he didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be sexually attacked by this man, the jury actually

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Speaker 1: let them off, the murders off with manslaughter charges rather

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Speaker 1: than murder charges, just because they you know, it was

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Speaker 1: at the time considered such a depraved lifestyle and actually

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Speaker 1: triggered a bunch of steing operations in Miami to uproot this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this homosexual community. So all this is going on, this

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Speaker 1: sort of sets the stage for bias against male stewards.

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Speaker 1: Oh I guess that's kind of redundant, but against male

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Speaker 1: flight attendants. But the female flight attendants who really want

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Speaker 1: to dismantle all of these repressive standards and actually be

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Speaker 1: able to make careers out of flying from place to place,

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Speaker 1: realize that the only way they're going to win this

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Speaker 1: case is if they go to the Equal Employment Opportunity

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Speaker 1: Commission or council set up to to um hear cases

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Speaker 1: related to Title seven of the Civil Rights Act and

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Speaker 1: have them dismantle all of these all these mandates from

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Speaker 1: the airlines based on the sex clause in the Civil

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Speaker 1: Rights Act. Yeah, these stewardesses don't necessarily want more male

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Speaker 1: stewards working that would take away jobs from them. They

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Speaker 1: do think that it's their their job to nurture all

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Speaker 1: these passages, and they do think it's kind of an

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Speaker 1: absurd idea that a guy would want to fill their shoes.

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Speaker 1: But they think, Okay, if we're gonna make this a

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Speaker 1: case about gender so that we can use at seven,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to bring the male stewards kind of

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Speaker 1: in with us and say, hey, these people can do

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Speaker 1: our job just as well as we can, and they

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Speaker 1: can get married because there were a handful of male

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Speaker 1: stewards still working after that that landmark case, and they

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Speaker 1: could get married, they could have children, and they could

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Speaker 1: still fly because they were men. So the stewardesses have

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Speaker 1: to show that the fact that they can't get married

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Speaker 1: is sex discrimination. And all of this comes down to

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Speaker 1: something referred to as a b f o Q, the

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Speaker 1: bona fide occupation qualification yes, which basically like a necessity

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Speaker 1: to hold the job. It's the loophole they find. But

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Speaker 1: the airline's fine. Yeah, like I mean, if you if

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Speaker 1: you want to be a doctor, you gotta go to

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Speaker 1: mid school. I mean, it's a b f o q.

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Speaker 1: So the female stewardesses are saying, being a woman is

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Speaker 1: not a bfo q for this job. Therefore, you are

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Speaker 1: discriminating against men by not hiring them on the basis

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Speaker 1: of their gender. Even though the air fine. The heads

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Speaker 1: of the airlines were coming back and saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's it is a b fo q for a woman

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Speaker 1: to be a stewardess because you can men cannot create

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Speaker 1: the psychological like nurturing atmosphere that we need to create

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Speaker 1: on our flights. So yeah, you do have to be

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Speaker 1: a woman. So they go back and forth and back

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Speaker 1: and forth. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine reading a

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Speaker 1: document that says this job is meant to be done

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Speaker 1: by a young single girl. Yeah, I mean what job?

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Speaker 1: Can you think of what that can be done by

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Speaker 1: young people girl? And that's what they're saying. Flight attendants

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Speaker 1: where they were saying that nurturing passengers, giving them liquids.

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Speaker 1: It was it was like mothering and therefore only women

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Speaker 1: could do it. So that's the argument, is it a

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Speaker 1: b fo Q? And that is not a crazy argument.

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Speaker 1: At the time, in the late sixties, we really haven't

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Speaker 1: progressed very much at all. And because of that, there

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Speaker 1: was a big question that the e f C had

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Speaker 1: to work out of whether the role that public perception

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Speaker 1: would pay to this. Most people at the time didn't

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Speaker 1: want dudes being there serving the in flight because a

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Speaker 1: lot of times it is time to flying was reserved

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Speaker 1: for upper class in businessmen, and they wanted pretty women

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Speaker 1: on their flights. So they don't even bring male stewards

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Speaker 1: in to testify before the e e o C. I

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Speaker 1: mean this case that was allegedly about the right for

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Speaker 1: a man to work on a plane, I mean they

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Speaker 1: barely ask the people who are working on the plane

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Speaker 1: because they say at the time they've got like four

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Speaker 1: or five complaints from men who want to be stewards,

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Speaker 1: whereas they have a hundred and fifty complaints from these

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Speaker 1: women who want to get married. So you know, the

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Speaker 1: airlines kind of say, hey, this isn't about men, it's

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Speaker 1: about these women. And the title seven says nothing about marriage,

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Speaker 1: it says nothing about weight game. So that's why they

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Speaker 1: had to make it about men. But ultimately the committee

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Speaker 1: decides they've got men are doing this job, the men

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Speaker 1: who been doing the job just as well, so therefore

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Speaker 1: you can't discriminate on gender. And eventually all the weight

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Speaker 1: game stuff gets struck down years later, And isn't an

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Speaker 1: ironic that in this same way that sex was slid

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Speaker 1: into the Equal Rights Act or the Civil Rights Act

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Speaker 1: excuse me, and it passed women venues sex again to

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Speaker 1: to win themselves more rights. I mean, it's just like

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Speaker 1: a trojan horse. It's really like the ultimate Smitty move

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Speaker 1: over and over again. It's a double trick, a double

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Speaker 1: turn catchline two use. It's all of them. And you

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Speaker 1: could say that, well, in the end, everybody wins because

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Speaker 1: the airlines have to strike down these rules that women

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Speaker 1: can't get married and can't gain weight and everything. But

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Speaker 1: it's still for the men tough out there, because the

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Speaker 1: media coverage of this landmark ruling by the e o

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Speaker 1: C is very sensational and very homophobic. Yeah, it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, watch he's getting your coffee. They'll slip

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Speaker 1: something into it and they'll try and drug you, and

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Speaker 1: and it's flying is gonna suck from now on. They

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Speaker 1: made fun of them, calling them he stewardesses. So um,

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Speaker 1: it was it was not an easy transition. But I

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Speaker 1: think that, you know, one gay newswerper did pick up

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Speaker 1: on the fact that if you're a small little family

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Speaker 1: flying from like the Midwest New York, this might be

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Speaker 1: the first opportunity you have to see a gay person,

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Speaker 1: and if they're in a position of serving you and

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Speaker 1: helping you, it could actually do a lot to improve

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Speaker 1: the standing of the gay community in Middle America's eyes,

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Speaker 1: which I think is kind of interesting. Yeah, and being

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Speaker 1: a flight attendant has become a popular occupation um for

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Speaker 1: gay men, is a number of the articles we've read

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Speaker 1: pointed out, and I think it has something to do

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Speaker 1: with the fact that that there is there. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of an emancipatory career, which has been for women. There

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Speaker 1: was an article very recently in The New York Times

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Speaker 1: about how Arab women are flocking to the u a e.

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Speaker 1: To become flight attendants because it is their first opportunity

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Speaker 1: to really break out of uh their societal roles that

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Speaker 1: they would have to stay within if they were to

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Speaker 1: stay home, instead of actually forging a career for themselves,

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Speaker 1: and that was the same role that had played for

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Speaker 1: a lot of women in the States, and then also

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Speaker 1: for a lot of gay men. I would argue, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of interesting when you compare, um,

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Speaker 1: that article about women in the Middle East versus women

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Speaker 1: in the US, and like the niesties is we said,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, one of the quotes in the Chicago

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Speaker 1: Tribune was that being a flight attendant was as sure

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Speaker 1: a path to the altars any It was very much

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Speaker 1: you can get married. You can do this for a

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Speaker 1: fewear's day, and you can get married, Whereas the New

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Speaker 1: York Times article about the Middle East made the point

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Speaker 1: that almost the opposite is happening, Like, yes, these women

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Speaker 1: are gaining a little bit more independence, begging to fly

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Speaker 1: around the world and do this profession, but they might

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Speaker 1: be getting too much so that when they actually go

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Speaker 1: back to their town, the men see them as unmarriable,

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Speaker 1: that they are not good marriage material because they've been

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Speaker 1: exposed to, you know, such newness. But maybe just in

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Speaker 1: the same way that it took time for us to

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Speaker 1: evolve from the sky girls to these stewards, sexualized stewardesses

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Speaker 1: with you know, airline taglines that said like we'll move

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Speaker 1: our tails you and does your wife know that you're

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Speaker 1: flying with us? And naughty things like that took a

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Speaker 1: long time, what forty years for that to happen. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't until nineteen seventy nine, uh, that a female journalist

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Speaker 1: was finally like, Okay, we're not gonna call you stewardesses anymore.

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Speaker 1: You are gender neutral flight attendants. Yeah. Stop thinking about

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Speaker 1: these women as sex objects bringing you coffee. These are

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Speaker 1: women who women and men who are designed to protect

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Speaker 1: your safety aboard, to make sure that we get from

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Speaker 1: point A to point B as comfortably as possible. But

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Speaker 1: they're not, you know, your personal servant. They are serving

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Speaker 1: a legitimate function on this airplane. And granted as discount

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Speaker 1: flights have become more and more than norm and people

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Speaker 1: are trying to pinch pennies. It's gotta be much harder

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Speaker 1: up air than it used to be because people are disgruntled.

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Speaker 1: You know, people used to dress up for flights. My actually,

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Speaker 1: one of my brothers still likes to dress up for

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Speaker 1: a flight. I just I just feel better than the skies.

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Speaker 1: You never know when the Papa rats you're gonna get

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Speaker 1: you I guess so. Uh so. It used to be

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Speaker 1: this sort of veered thing, but now we just hop on.

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Speaker 1: We shove our bags in the overhead and wait and

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Speaker 1: cross our fingers that we don't get get skimped on peanuts.

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Speaker 1: It's not what it used to be. But in some

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Speaker 1: ways that's a good thing. Yeah, I can deal without

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Speaker 1: a sexy stewardess. I think it's I think it's great

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Speaker 1: that we're much more gender and chel. Now i'd like

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Speaker 1: a friendly flight attendant. Oh, of course, you don't want

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Speaker 1: one of those Jet Blue guys that made the headlines

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Speaker 1: about a year ago for taking the emergency shoot down

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Speaker 1: with the passenger. I'm done. And what about those flight

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Speaker 1: attendants who are so nice and they'll let you have

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Speaker 1: your entire can of soda or giving you extra pretzels

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Speaker 1: and peanuts on our way to south By Southwest, I

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Speaker 1: totally got two bags of pretzels, and it made quite

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Speaker 1: an impression on me. I would say, we're very easy

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Speaker 1: to please when it comes to flight. Christin you and

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Speaker 1: I all I want is my entire dike. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to come and try and collect

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Speaker 1: it before I'm done drinking it and don't make me.

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Speaker 1: Don't make a guzzle it. Let me let me enjoy

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Speaker 1: my my flight. Um. Well, before we wrap this up

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Speaker 1: and ask for everyone out there's opinion on this, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to give credit to two of our sources

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Speaker 1: because we leaned on them a lot. Um Femininity and

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Speaker 1: Flight History of Flight Attendants is a book by Kathleen

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Speaker 1: and Barry, and that's where we got a lot of

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Speaker 1: our information about sort of the ideal woman part of

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Speaker 1: the podcast. And then a paper called Male Serritesses by

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Speaker 1: Phil Timeyer provided a lot of the information about um,

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Speaker 1: the male stereotypes and the court case action. So and

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Speaker 1: if you do have extra time on your hands, I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend going and reading about those uh, those court

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Speaker 1: cases about male flight attendants, because to me, that was

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Speaker 1: the most surprising, uh stuff to learn about flight attendant history.

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Speaker 1: We know so much about the history of female flight attendants.

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Speaker 1: Man men had, men had a hard road to ho

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Speaker 1: in the in the skies. But now we can all

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Speaker 1: be in disguise together together. All right, let's do some

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Speaker 1: listener mail. I've got one here from Jonathan and it's

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Speaker 1: about the male nursing pot cast. He writes, it's always

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Speaker 1: an interesting and sometimes touchy subject, as men are not

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Speaker 1: marginalized as a minority in everyday life as women are.

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Speaker 1: But place a man in the nursing profession and suddenly

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Speaker 1: there are issues he has to deal with which could

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Speaker 1: possibly distract from his responsibilities. I would like to caution you, however,

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Speaker 1: on using the term male nurse. The referred term is

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Speaker 1: men in nursing. Perhaps this is a matter of semantics

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Speaker 1: that some people believe that saying male nurse is actually

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Speaker 1: reinforcing the stereotype that a normal nurse is female. A

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Speaker 1: nurse is a nurse. There shouldn't be a need for

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Speaker 1: a qualifier, because you do still implies that you're modifying

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Speaker 1: the noun to denote something unusual atypical. Would you a

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Speaker 1: normal everyday conversation, say to with a friend, I have

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Speaker 1: an appointment at two o'clock with my female doctor. So yes,

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Speaker 1: that's a very good point, Jonathan that, uh, we had

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Speaker 1: to kind of put male nurse to differentiate in the podcast.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes in the day, a nurse is

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Speaker 1: a nurse, A teacher as a teacher, a doctor's a doctor.

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Speaker 1: I've got an email here from Molly. Is it make

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Speaker 1: It's not you? Unless you're in a polyamorous relationship, because

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Speaker 1: this is about polyamory, and Molly writes, my husband and

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Speaker 1: I have been in a polly slash open relationship for

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Speaker 1: almost a year. We both have very different sexual needs,

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Speaker 1: and while the rest of our relationship is amazing, this

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Speaker 1: one detail was corrupting everything with feelings of isolation, resentment,

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Speaker 1: and frustration. We realized that this wasn't either of our

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Speaker 1: faults and we were just very different. We had some

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Speaker 1: friends in really positive open relationships at different kinds, and ultimately,

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Speaker 1: after a lot of counseling and work on communication skills,

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Speaker 1: we decided to give it a go. My husband has

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Speaker 1: more of a true emotional relationship with her girlfriend and

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Speaker 1: they're pretty serious. I really like her and she does

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Speaker 1: the things with him that I don't want you, so

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Speaker 1: the time we get together is doing things we wanted

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Speaker 1: you together. I've had a few less serious relationships. I

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Speaker 1: am looking less for the emotional side more for the physical. However,

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Speaker 1: I need to really trust someone, so there's definitely still

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Speaker 1: an emotional aspect. We meet each other's potential partners and

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Speaker 1: we find find this helps reduce the jealousy and it's

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Speaker 1: easy to create this amazing fantasy person in your head

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Speaker 1: that your partner is running off with, but when you

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Speaker 1: meet them in real life, you see they're human with

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Speaker 1: good and bad things, just like everyone else. So far,

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Speaker 1: it has worked out really well for us. As you

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Speaker 1: said in the podcast, it takes crazy levels of communication,

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Speaker 1: which has sent our satisfaction in our relationship through the roof.

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Speaker 1: We really listen to each other and try to find

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Speaker 1: feasible ways to meet each other's needs. We still have sex,

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Speaker 1: but we are no longer dependent on each other to

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Speaker 1: meet that need. So again, we do it now because

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Speaker 1: we want to, not because we have to. We are nonbelievers,

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Speaker 1: so it really wasn't a moral question for us. We

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Speaker 1: just realized we had a problem that could destroy an

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Speaker 1: otherwise amazing partnership, and we chose to fund an unconventional

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Speaker 1: way just solve the problem. So thank you for that insight, Molly,

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Speaker 1: and you Molly, and if you guys have any oles

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Speaker 1: or women I shouldn't say girls, whatever inclusive term you whatever, yes,

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