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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Surveillance video taken just moments

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Speaker 1: before the thirty year old New York City woman was

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Speaker 1: beaten and strangled to death while on a late afternoon

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Speaker 1: brun We need to find this predator now, more than

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Speaker 1: six months after the grizzly murder? Why did you kill her?

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Speaker 1: Police say they've found the needle in the haystack, tracking

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Speaker 1: down the man they believe is responsible. Twenty year old

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Speaker 1: Chanel Lewis lived three and a half miles away from

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Speaker 1: the crime scene with his mother. Follow Up investigation developed

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Speaker 1: forensic evidence linking him to the crime. Lewis was interviewed

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Speaker 1: by detectives and made detailed, incriminating statements and admissions. You

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Speaker 1: are hearing our friend at ABC World News tonight. That's

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Speaker 1: Maria she of a compo. Is that how it all started?

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Speaker 1: The murder of a beautiful, brilliant girl, Karina Vatranto. Is

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Speaker 1: this where it started? And today has it ended in

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Speaker 1: a court of law? I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, with me right now

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Speaker 1: is who I consider to be a friend and Phil Vatranto.

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether I should be happy for you

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Speaker 1: and your beautiful wife. I don't know. Let me just

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Speaker 1: say that your daughter, Carina Vatrano killer has been convicted.

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Speaker 1: And I started to say, that's the headline, but that's

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Speaker 1: not the headline. The head line is Karina. I just

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Speaker 1: want to start with right now and then we'll explain

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Speaker 1: to the listeners what happened. But tell me what went

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Speaker 1: through your body, what went through your mind when you

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Speaker 1: hear guilty that. You know, we've been hoping and praying

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Speaker 1: for that moment ever since, you know, my daughter was murdered,

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Speaker 1: and it's been a long road. We never been through

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Speaker 1: anything like this, so we didn't know what to expect.

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Speaker 1: And it was total jubilation when that when that happened,

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Speaker 1: When we heard that jury form and bellow the words guilty,

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Speaker 1: the whole audience erupted spontaneously, you know, naturally, and I

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Speaker 1: felt away. That was lifted off of me at that moment.

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Speaker 1: At that moment, all the anger that was in me,

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Speaker 1: all the hate that was in me, it it disappeared,

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Speaker 1: it dissipated, It was just taking away, and I just

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Speaker 1: felt relief and gratitude to the to the jury, and

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Speaker 1: gratitude to the prosecution. And it doesn't change anything, but

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Speaker 1: it put the murderer away. It's going to put the

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Speaker 1: murderer away for a very long time. Take listen to

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Speaker 1: our friend at w NBC News for this is Checkie Backford.

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Speaker 1: It was definitely a different atmosphere tonight at the end

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Speaker 1: of this trial versus the one back in November when

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Speaker 1: a jury then failed to reach a unanimous verdict in

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Speaker 1: the case. But tonight, Karina Vitrano's family erupted in cheers

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Speaker 1: and applause inside that courtroom as a jury foreman read

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Speaker 1: that Chanel Lewis was in fact guilty on all counts.

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Speaker 1: The Patrano family's emotional reaction after waiting for justice for

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Speaker 1: three years for their daughter. No visible reaction though from

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Speaker 1: Chanel Lewis himself. The jury today confirming he was in

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Speaker 1: fact the man who beat and sexually abused thirty year

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Speaker 1: old jogger Karina Vatranto in twenty sixteen, leaving her battered

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Speaker 1: body in a Howard Beach park, the verdict coming just

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Speaker 1: five hours after the jury got the case at the

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Speaker 1: end of the three week trial. At one point this evening,

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Speaker 1: they asked for readbacks of the charges and testimony from

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Speaker 1: two detectives in the case. Earlier, the defense tried to

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Speaker 1: get the case dismissed after receiving an anonymous, unsubstantiated letter

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Speaker 1: about racial bias involved in Lewis's arrest, but the judge

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Speaker 1: denied the motion, and the prosecution delivered a blistering two

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Speaker 1: hour summation pointing out DNA evidence and two taped confessions

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Speaker 1: tying Lewis to the murders. This is you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking back with me is Karina Vitranto's father, Phil

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Speaker 1: and you and Karina had this incredible relationship, as she

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Speaker 1: did with her mom. But when I first learned about

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Speaker 1: Karina's disappearance and death, so many things struck a chord

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Speaker 1: in me. As I've told you in person, my dad

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Speaker 1: and I would always exercise together. We were soul mates.

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Speaker 1: He and my mom were gone trips with us. I

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Speaker 1: mean that were the happiest times of my life. We

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Speaker 1: were all around the dinner table together with my mom

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Speaker 1: and my dad. Both of us laughed at the same things,

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Speaker 1: we hated the same things, we love the same things.

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Speaker 1: And of all the days, the one day you don't

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Speaker 1: go jog with her? Little did anybody know there was

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Speaker 1: a predator waiting, and that's where it all starts. I

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Speaker 1: know you remember that day and you've told me about

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Speaker 1: it before. But that day when she went jocking, did

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Speaker 1: you have any feeling, any inkling that anything was amiss

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Speaker 1: when you stayed behind? I don't know, maybe subconsciously at

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Speaker 1: that moment, because I did tell her, I said, are

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Speaker 1: you going to be running in there? Meaning the weeds

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Speaker 1: where we used to run together? And she said yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I said, I don't think it's a good idea range,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I called her range and she said,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, Daddy, I'll be okay. So maybe subconsciously I

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Speaker 1: felt something right then and there. But moments later, moments later,

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Speaker 1: I started to really get a bad feeling. And I

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Speaker 1: told you about that, and everybody knows about that, and

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Speaker 1: then I went out looking for her. That is amazing

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Speaker 1: to me. And what he is talking about, guys, is

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Speaker 1: within fifteen minutes after I guess it was about fifteen

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Speaker 1: minutes after Karina went jogging and he didn't go. I

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Speaker 1: believe you were down in the back. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what it was. Right the end, you had this feeling

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Speaker 1: and you started watching the lot when she was going

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Speaker 1: to get back and then ultimately started calling her, as

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Speaker 1: I recall it, Phil Yes, that is correct, I called her.

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Speaker 1: I started getting the feeling poly around six ten, six twelve.

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Speaker 1: I called her at six twenty seven, six twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: six thirty. At that point I just screamed and I

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Speaker 1: just went out looking for her crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: You have been in I wouldn't say law enforcement, but

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Speaker 1: you were with a fire department. And how did that

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Speaker 1: play into your thoughts? Because sometimes I think when we've

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Speaker 1: been on this side of the law and saying so much,

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Speaker 1: we look at the world a different way, phil Well,

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Speaker 1: I no longer look at the world in the way

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Speaker 1: that I once did. You know, I always trusted everybody

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Speaker 1: and gave everybody the benefit of the doubt. And now

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Speaker 1: I am more suspicious, I am less. I am more

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Speaker 1: cautious of what can happen for no reason whatsoever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it has changed my outlook on life and outlook on people,

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Speaker 1: of course it has. I want to ask you about

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Speaker 1: what you observed in the courtroom when you sit there

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Speaker 1: and look at this guy. I remember prosecuting cases. I

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Speaker 1: could hardly stand to look over at a killer in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom just it just it was like a bad

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Speaker 1: taste in my mouth. What what was going through your

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Speaker 1: mind when you would look in the courtroom at Channel

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Speaker 1: Lewis discussed, discussed because I knew what he had done

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Speaker 1: to my baby, I know the viciousness of the attack,

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Speaker 1: what he did to her, and I could feel nothing

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Speaker 1: but hatred and discussed towards him. Would he look at

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Speaker 1: you in the courtroom? He had to know who you are.

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Speaker 1: He would constantly turn, constantly turn and look at my

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Speaker 1: wife and myself, mostly my wife. He would turn and

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Speaker 1: stare at her, and it got to the point where

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Speaker 1: we had to ask a court officer to please stop

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Speaker 1: him from doing that. And a court officer just sat

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Speaker 1: right in front of him, right on the side him,

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Speaker 1: so we wouldn't be able to see his face as

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Speaker 1: he turned towards us continually during both trials. See, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that. I didn't know that he would turn

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Speaker 1: around and look at your wife throughout the trial. What

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Speaker 1: do you think that was about? We have no idea,

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Speaker 1: We have no idea what he could have possibly been thinking.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a malicious look, it wasn't a sadistic look.

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Speaker 1: But he just kept looking at us. He wouldn't turn

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Speaker 1: towards his family. He would look at Cathy. Now I

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Speaker 1: can't explain what was going through his mind. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but that's what he would do. Another heartbreak, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to circle back to you searching for karina Is.

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Speaker 1: When this goes to trial, I all and there's a mistrial,

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Speaker 1: even with a confession and a DNA match, You don't

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Speaker 1: believe me. Listen to Channel Lewis in his own words. Now,

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Speaker 1: while you're in the park, Um, did something happen? Yes?

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Speaker 1: What happened while you're in the parks? Girl? Jog in it? No?

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Speaker 1: You know one thing? Let to another clause we'll get

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Speaker 1: some other situation. All right, Well the girl that was jogging?

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Speaker 1: Was she by herself or with anybody else? By herself? Um?

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Speaker 1: What does he look like? What was he wearing? What

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Speaker 1: was corn? And station of place? Won? A ye? Tank top? Maybe? Okay?

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Speaker 1: What kind of pants? I want to you know? Were

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Speaker 1: they long and short? Do you remember? I remember they

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Speaker 1: long pants? Are short pants? Okay? Um? And was she

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Speaker 1: was he jogging? Was she coming from the same direction

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Speaker 1: that you came from when you entered the park? When

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Speaker 1: going out, there's the direction it's okay. And when you

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Speaker 1: first saw her, where were you? Were you in the

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Speaker 1: grass or were you on the trail on the trail

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Speaker 1: all right? And were you moving or were you standing

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Speaker 1: still like I was moving at too music? You were

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Speaker 1: you were walking or jogging? Walking? Walking? And you were

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Speaker 1: walking towards her. He was walking towards and then let's

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Speaker 1: side to side and then something like to another when

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Speaker 1: she got next to you as you as she was

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Speaker 1: running and you were walking. What happened now and for

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Speaker 1: the past situation, I got angry and and hitting her

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, okay, Um, before you did where

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Speaker 1: did you hit her? Like in the face and left

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Speaker 1: in the mouth, in the face of the mouth before

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Speaker 1: you hit her, did you grab her or did you

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Speaker 1: just hit her right away kind of grab grabbed her? Then?

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Speaker 1: Like how did you grab it? What part of her

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Speaker 1: body did you did you grab? As I start you

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Speaker 1: in because of the incident, was right? But did you

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Speaker 1: did you grab her before you started hitting her? It

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Speaker 1: was the first thing you did, was the hit her.

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Speaker 1: What was the first thing you did and grab it? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And how did you grab her okay with both hands?

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Speaker 1: M okay? And what part of her body did you

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Speaker 1: grab you remember her shoulders, her waist, her nag? Do

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Speaker 1: you remember probably? All right here okay, you're on the shoulders.

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Speaker 1: Then when you grabbed her, what happened then started hitting

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Speaker 1: air and stuff like that? All right? Now? Um? Did

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Speaker 1: you hit it with both hands? Probably? Yeah? All right?

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Speaker 1: And what part of her body did with your hands? Any? Everybody?

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Speaker 1: Her face? Just the face? All right? About how many

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Speaker 1: times did you hit her in the face? On five?

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Speaker 1: All right? Was she standing when you started to hit her?

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Speaker 1: Or was he on the ground? He was on the ground? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So did she when did she fall to the ground

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Speaker 1: after you grabbed her? All right? Now, when she fell

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Speaker 1: to the ground, was he lying in the path or

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Speaker 1: was he off the path the pathway? When when she

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Speaker 1: when she fell to the ground and you were hitting her,

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Speaker 1: was she on the pathway or was he off the

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Speaker 1: pathway on the pathway? All right? Did she say anything

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Speaker 1: at all? Now? Did she scream broke? I'm sorry? Her

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Speaker 1: tooth broke? Were you covering her mouth at all? No? Okay? Um?

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Speaker 1: The tooth that broke, was it like in the front

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Speaker 1: at the top of the bottom. Do you remember? Okay?

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Speaker 1: How long would you say you were hitting her for

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Speaker 1: about how how long a time? The whole thing was

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Speaker 1: about farmings? Twive minutes? All right? And did you do

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Speaker 1: anything else to it besides hitter? Did you put her

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Speaker 1: hands on any other part of her body? M around

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Speaker 1: her neck or anything? And the sorry, yeah, you put

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Speaker 1: her hands on a reck or round the neck? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Do remember? Was it one hand on both hands? Well? Both?

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Speaker 1: All right? Then how long did you have your hands

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Speaker 1: around her neck? Okay? Did you squeeze her neck when

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Speaker 1: you had your hands around her neck? Yeah? Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: you don't remember the how long though? Okay, hats mad

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Speaker 1: at incident? Before she went into the water, he had

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Speaker 1: stopped moving. Is that right? She's not moving before her

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Speaker 1: face went into the water, correct? All right? Did um?

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry? Kind of did it? Kind of did? All right?

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Speaker 1: What could you tell us she was breathing or not?

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Speaker 1: When you say be the last question? Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us she was breathing or the other one? Oh? Before that?

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Speaker 1: I said no, at some point before she went she

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Speaker 1: stopped moving and you said kind of right, this is

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Speaker 1: after after the water, Well, that's when when you when

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Speaker 1: she went when you put her in the water, was

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Speaker 1: she still moving? There, know what did she falling? She fell?

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Speaker 1: What was she moving there after that? She wasn't moving? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Did she fall in the water when you first threw

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Speaker 1: it to the ground or when you're on the ground

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Speaker 1: with her head and her did she like kind of

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Speaker 1: move towards the water? It was more like its trangulation.

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Speaker 1: Then she moved into the water. So say after you

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Speaker 1: had your hands on her neck that she went the

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Speaker 1: more right? Um? And what did you do then? After

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Speaker 1: the she is the sm I got her by ankles

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Speaker 1: and think back putting the bushes. Okay, Look, can you

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Speaker 1: just describe to me, like how you moved to at

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Speaker 1: what part of the body were you holding when when

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Speaker 1: you moved her? On the hand, following that verdict, I

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Speaker 1: feel like a weight has been lifted, you know. It's

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Speaker 1: it just you woke up with a different feeling. I

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Speaker 1: woke up with a different feeling. If she could be

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Speaker 1: here today, or you could speak to her today, what

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Speaker 1: would you say to her? I speak to her every day,

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Speaker 1: every single day. I speak to up and she speaks

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Speaker 1: to us in volumes. Karina's father says her voice will

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Speaker 1: always be heard from the sound of the birds here

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Speaker 1: to the writings on her blog, and they plan to

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Speaker 1: find a way to get her work put into a book.

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Speaker 1: How do you even Karina would want to be remembered

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Speaker 1: just as she is, just as everybody sees her. She's special,

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Speaker 1: she's smart, beautiful, and she was destined for greater things,

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Speaker 1: and she has achieved that. We don't know what what

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Speaker 1: the rest to do, most of our life is going

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Speaker 1: to be like, but it's a good feeling to know

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Speaker 1: that now we could move forward to a place of peace,

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Speaker 1: always remembering their beloved daughter with me. Right now, Phil Vatronto,

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Speaker 1: who I consider to be a colleague and a friend,

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Speaker 1: Karina's father, feel sensing dread foreboding, goes out and starts

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Speaker 1: looking for Karina, and it is Phil that finds his daughter.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, I don't know how you ever

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Speaker 1: get that image out of your mind, or if you

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Speaker 1: want to get that image out of your mind, you know, Phil,

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Speaker 1: I just buried my dad and the last image I

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Speaker 1: have of him is when I leaned over into his

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Speaker 1: casket and I hugged him and it kissed him. That's

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Speaker 1: my last memory of seeing his face. And sometimes I

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Speaker 1: wish I hadn't seen that, but I did, and then

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Speaker 1: sometimes I thank god I got to kiss him. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how you feel about finding Karina. It was

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Speaker 1: of the utmost importance to her that I find that

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Speaker 1: I found her. It was because of her that I

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Speaker 1: found her. She needed her father, she needed her daddy

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Speaker 1: to find her. And that was the last thing that

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Speaker 1: I could have done for her, the last thing that

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Speaker 1: I did do for her, because we were so close

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Speaker 1: and she led me to her. I needed to find her.

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Speaker 1: And yes it was horrible, but I needed to do

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Speaker 1: that for her. You know what I feel. That's not

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Speaker 1: the last thing that you and your wife did for her.

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Speaker 1: The last thing you did for her was you were

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Speaker 1: in that courtroom every single day, and that jury saw you,

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Speaker 1: and they were held accountable, and he Lewis was held accountable.

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Speaker 1: You were there every single day. And I remember seeing

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Speaker 1: an image of your wife coming out of court and

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Speaker 1: she was in one of the trials holding a crucifix

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Speaker 1: in her hand, and I thought she was gonna just

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Speaker 1: pass out. I thought she was just going to fall over,

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Speaker 1: and her beautiful face was like a ghost. What she

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Speaker 1: was living through, what you were living through, having to

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Speaker 1: go through the whole thing again, and then get a mistrial.

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Speaker 1: A mistrial, How could the first jury get it wrong

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Speaker 1: with a confession and DNA how feel simple answer to

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Speaker 1: that is that we had a bad jury. You know that,

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Speaker 1: you're a lawyer, you're a prosecutor. You know that it

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Speaker 1: all stems down to the jury to get twelve people

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Speaker 1: to agree on something. And people have different views of things,

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Speaker 1: and people have different agendas. And we got a bad

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Speaker 1: jury the first time. You know, people on the outside

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Speaker 1: don't get when you get a bad jury, it happens.

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Speaker 1: I remember, Phil, I don't know if I told you this,

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Speaker 1: but in my first bank robbery prosecution, I got a

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Speaker 1: guy that was convicted of a bank robber all my jury.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think persuading I had to do

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Speaker 1: to get that guilty part it? I mean, you can

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Speaker 1: get a bad jury and not know it. Like you

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Speaker 1: know in the Scott Peterson case they had one jarar

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Speaker 1: after the next turned out being nut a bad yearar

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Speaker 1: and you don't know, you don't know when you put

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Speaker 1: him in the box. What about this? And I've been

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Speaker 1: dying to ask you about Channel Lewis who gives a

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Speaker 1: full confession. I'm going to circle back to you feel

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Speaker 1: on the fact that, in addition to being a friend,

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Speaker 1: you have turned into a colleague fighting for the use

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Speaker 1: the admitutes of a court a familial DNA. Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: the one that brought that to the forefront. Well, and

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Speaker 1: then everybody else followed you. I need to tell you something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you were one of the people that have

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Speaker 1: been there from the very beginning. We met on doctor

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Speaker 1: ozon December sixth, twenty sixteen, and you were very instrumental

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Speaker 1: in getting that familiar DNA campaign launched, and we got

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Speaker 1: it done in the state of New York. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: ironic that you bring this up now, but right before

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Speaker 1: I started to speak to you, I read an email

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Speaker 1: from Harley Feldman. His daughter Allison was murdered in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen, and through the use of familiar DNA

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Speaker 1: in Arizona, they got her killer and that's going to

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Speaker 1: trial in two twenty And I would like to think

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Speaker 1: that both you and I were instrumental in getting that

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Speaker 1: familiar DNA passed in Arizona, and I'd like to continue

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Speaker 1: doing that in all the states. But you were very

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Speaker 1: instrumental in that happening. Well, you know what I'm standing

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Speaker 1: in your shadow, okay with me. In addition to Phil Vatronto,

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Speaker 1: the father of Karina Vatronto, forensics expert Joe Scott, Morgan,

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Kenya Johnson, host of the hit series on investigation Discovery,

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Speaker 1: Fatal Vows, doctor Bryan Russell, and Dave Matt Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: I know you'll understand that I'm speaking almost exclusive saville

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Speaker 1: with Phil, but if you could quickly in regular people talk, okay,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, explain what is familial DNA, familial DNA nancy

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Speaker 1: or those connections that we have with the strand that

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Speaker 1: runs through our life, those connections that we have with

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Speaker 1: with family members, peripheral family members maybe aunts, uncles, and

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Speaker 1: of course our immediate family. And these can be tracked

346
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Speaker 1: down through DNA. Partial DNA fragments that are found at

347
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Speaker 1: scenes may be plugged into databases that have come up

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Speaker 1: as a result of things like twenty three and me

349
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Speaker 1: ancestry dot com, and we can at least get an

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Speaker 1: idea as to what family groupings individuals come from. So this, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's huge data banks like you're talking about. There's aphis,

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Speaker 1: there's codas, there's a fingerprint, there's DNA there'sh Now there's

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Speaker 1: a gun data bank, and then you've got all the

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Speaker 1: as you said, genealogy data bank, blah blah blah blah.

355
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Speaker 1: So what Phil did was lead the charge. There was

356
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Speaker 1: DNA on the scene where Karina was assaulted and beaten horribly.

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Speaker 1: But Phil, we couldn't get a match. It didn't match

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Speaker 1: anybody in the system. But then bam you tell the rest. Phil, Well,

359
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: through hard you know, detective work, relentless police work, you know,

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Speaker 1: they came up with a lead, a lead that was

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Speaker 1: merited and justified from previous summonses, from nine calls from

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00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: suspicious you know, burglar type behavior. A lieutenant you know,

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Speaker 1: remembered something that happened back in May twenty sixteen, and

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00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: then it was vetted and investigated through hard core, basic

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Speaker 1: police work, and we came up with the name of

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Speaker 1: Channel Lewis. They came up put the name michelevel news.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea, you know, what was going on.

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00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't kept you know, a breath of that of

369
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Speaker 1: the investigation. And he was swabbed. He was given the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to not give a swab. He signed a consent

371
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Speaker 1: for him. He was swabbed and a few days later

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00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: that came back as a positive match or one in

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Speaker 1: seven trillion to one probability that it was him, meaning

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00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: one in one hundred and thirty two Earth planets that

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00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: it couldn't be anybody else but him. Crime Stories with

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00:27:53,160 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace with me right now is who I consider

377
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: to be a friend. Phil Vatronto, your daughter, Carina Vatrono

378
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: killer has been convicted. It's it's amazing that with the DNA,

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Speaker 1: with a full confession, he was not convicted at the

380
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Speaker 1: first trial. But the reality is he is convicted now

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Speaker 1: and may he rot in jail as a brief pit

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Speaker 1: stop on his way to hell and there I can

383
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Speaker 1: only hope that he yeah, that he burns day in

384
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Speaker 1: day out, what the devil. That's my hope much more

385
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Speaker 1: for him. And I know, I know we're supposed to forgive.

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00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: I get it, and maybe one day I'll reach that

387
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: zen moment when I can do that. But for right now,

388
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: and he's not helping me any because what about this,

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00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: Phil turns out? I know you already know this. I'm

390
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: not breaking anything too. You know more about it than me.

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Speaker 1: Here he is bragging behind bars. Karina's killer is bragging

392
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Speaker 1: behind bars. Quote, I'm on front page of both the papers,

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Speaker 1: one of those papers being my favorite paper, the New

394
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Speaker 1: York Post. He's bragge. He thinks that's a good thing

395
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Speaker 1: that his picture is on the front of the paper. Phil,

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00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: I think that says it all. Yes, it does. And

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Speaker 1: I'm very aware of that article came out to yesterday,

398
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Speaker 1: And yeah, that says volumes about the character of the

399
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: person that was convicted. Has been convicted in the court

400
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: law without any doubt on all counts. Yes, that's his character.

401
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: And this guy has actually been calling the media during

402
00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: the trial whining about his conditions behind bars. Yes, it's

403
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: more than I can take. Phil. It's always been about him. Me, me, me,

404
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: they're mistreating me. I mean, he's in jail for you know,

405
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: sexual assault, murder, and he's complaining that he's being mistreated

406
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: in a holy facility, which is a camp compared to

407
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: where he's going to go. Well, let me just report

408
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: one of his mistreatments. And he once pleaded to the

409
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: Daily News after giving them a story about another inmate

410
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: ejaculating into a communal hot pot. Now I can't say

411
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: that I'm sad about it, but the reality is I

412
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: need a shrink. Doctor. Brian Russell, the host of id's

413
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: hit Fatal, vows why is it all about him? Why

414
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: is he happy he's on the front page of a newspaper.

415
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: I just wish Corinna's picture hadn't been on the newspaper

416
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: and a split split photo with him. Why is he bragging? Well,

417
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: I think that's totally consistent with everything that we know

418
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: about this guy and what's now been proven beyond a

419
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt in a court of law about this guy.

420
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: Would I mean, it's the same core personality trait that

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Speaker 1: resulted in this horrific crime happening in the first place.

422
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: And I think that you raised a very important point

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00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: a minute ago when you talked about forgiveness. Because I

424
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: like you, I understand what you're talking about. But I

425
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: think there's an element of remorse that has to be

426
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: there in order for the person to be ready and

427
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: and and worthy of forgiveness. And I want to give

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00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: people a little bit different way to think about forgiveness

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00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: other than the idea that it is letting somebody off

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00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: the hook for a wrong they've done. Because I'm with you,

431
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm not I haven't developed spiritually to the point where

432
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: I can do that with a guy like this either.

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00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: But a different way to think about it. I think

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00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: that might be helpful for some people. Is you get

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00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: to a point where you say, I don't expect any

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00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: more from you. I don't expect any more from this person.

437
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: And it's not really because you're letting that person off

438
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: the hook. It's not really for their benefit. It's for

439
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: your benefit that you know you're never going to get

440
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: anything else from this person and you don't expect it

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00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: to fill the Toronto. Do you remember that moment? Of

442
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: course you do, when you were approaching Karina's body and

443
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: the crime scene. What made you go there? What instinct

444
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: made you go there? Drawn? I was drawn there. You know.

445
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: There was a police officer on the trail. We found

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00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: out they found her phone. I walked up to him

447
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: and I asked him where's the phone? And he told

448
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: me it's in there, pointing into the weeds. He said

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00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: it's about fifty feet. But you can't go anywhere near,

450
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: you can't touch you, you can't even look at You

451
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: have to stay here. And I said okay. So I

452
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: started to walk the trail and I started to walk

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00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: further into the trail, towards Brooklyn to a west, and

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00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: then something in my in my mind, something told me no,

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00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: and I stopped, and I turned around and I started

456
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: to walk back east towards where my house would be.

457
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: And I went about twenty feet and I'm looking to

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00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: my left, and I'm looking to my right, and I

459
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: looked down to my right, and I see one weed

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00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: that was bent, and I kind of crouched down and

461
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: I look and I see it appears to be betrayal

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00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: that somebody could have went through hours before, and I

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00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: followed it in. But it was basically my daughter Karina,

464
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: telling me, do this, follow this. I'm here. I need

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00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: for you to find me. And that's how it occurred.

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00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: I can't think I have anyone that I would want

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00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: with me at that moment other than my husband, or

468
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: my dad or my mom, you know, the people that

469
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: are the very closest to me. And I think you're

470
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: right right. I think somehow she was asking you to

471
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: come and find her. I knew when she was being accosted.

472
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: I knew when she was being beaten. I felt something

473
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: was wrong, and at first I ignored those primal feelings,

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00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: those instincts, but that only lasted for moments and then

475
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: it just overcame me and I said, no, something is wrong.

476
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: I knew something was wrong. She was calling for she

477
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: was calling for Daddy, and I went out looking for

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00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: That is a fact. Feel how many suspects did they

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00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: pursue before they got the DNA match? Hundreds hundreds and

480
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds. You know, this was a tremendously large investigation,

481
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: and everyone was suspect. Every family member was suspect, every friend,

482
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: every acquaintance, every coworker, everyone was suspect. I was suspect,

483
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: my son was suspected, every mail was suspect. And I

484
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: suspected everyone. So this was a tremendous investigation. They were

485
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: not focused on a particular person, a particular race, a

486
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: particular location. It was a citywide investigation. Phil the Toronto

487
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: you really personify one of my favorite versus out of Timothy,

488
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: and it is fight the good, fight, strong to the end.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend,