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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On

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Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

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Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to be interviewing Jennifer Petrillieri, who is

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Speaker 1: the author of the new book Couples That Work, and

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Speaker 1: she has studied the issue of dual income couples and

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine from the title of the book,

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Speaker 1: how they work. And so I know that's a topic

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Speaker 1: of interest to a lot of our listeners. So we

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Speaker 1: are very much looking forward to that. So, Sarah, you

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Speaker 1: are speaking of dual career couples. You're coming into a

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Speaker 1: pretty busy season as this is airing, right. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've discovered the residency equivalent of the accounting

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Speaker 1: pre tax, which is interview season and recruitment season where

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Speaker 1: I get to flip into sales mode for approximately three months,

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Speaker 1: and we do fourteen in our program, fourteen interview days

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Speaker 1: and interview a total of one hundred and forty candidates. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of candidates. Yeah, that's a lot. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to meet all of them and do presentations

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Speaker 1: in front of all of them, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of other stuff going on. So it's it's full. But

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Speaker 1: it's good. Yeah. Good, I'm much around full as good.

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Speaker 1: And you chose to take on this new role and yes,

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Speaker 1: and I'm doing, you know, less proportionally. I tried to

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Speaker 1: arrange my call schedule so I'm taking very little call

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Speaker 1: during this time, so it should be it should be

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Speaker 1: a fine balance. Yeah, that's good. But you mentioned like

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Speaker 1: when you we decided to interview Jennifer and you were

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Speaker 1: picking up her book, you were a little nervous about

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Speaker 1: what her conclusion was. It was her conclusion well, or

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Speaker 1: worried it was going to be like you're screwed. I

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Speaker 1: actually like as soon as I saw the title of

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Speaker 1: the book, I was like, we must have this woman

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Speaker 1: on our podcast, like perfect what a best of both

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Speaker 1: worlds idea? But then I felt like it was high pressure,

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Speaker 1: like what if her? It seemed like a very well

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Speaker 1: researched book, So I was concerned that maybe her conclusion

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Speaker 1: would be that, oh, only one partner can lead, and

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Speaker 1: you know the other person has to take a sort

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Speaker 1: of secondary I don't know. I was just nervous that

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Speaker 1: maybe its conclusions wouldn't be favorable to my hopes and dreams. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but the opposite was definitely true, which made this book

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Speaker 1: really empowering more than many of the recent books on

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Speaker 1: this topic. Well, it's a perpetual, perennial topic that we

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Speaker 1: were all trying to She figured out in a very

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Speaker 1: like analytical way, and I guess her conclusions could have

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Speaker 1: been terrible. It wasn't like her writing out of any

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Speaker 1: kind of anger. I don't feel like she had an agenda.

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Speaker 1: I feel like she really went in with an exploratory mindset,

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Speaker 1: and so it was cool to find out that her

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Speaker 1: findings actually turned out to be on the positive side. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's awesome. And I know that Sarah had mentioned

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Speaker 1: this is one of her favorite books and the nonfiction

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Speaker 1: category read in twenty nineteen, so high praise for couples

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Speaker 1: that work. So we're excited to welcome Jennifer. Well, Sarah

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Speaker 1: and I are excited to welcome Jennifer Pacilliary to the program.

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Speaker 1: She is the author of Couples at Work. Jennifer, can

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Speaker 1: you introduce yourself to our listeners? Yes, thanks for having

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Speaker 1: me on. So. I'm a professor of organizational behavior at INNCIAD,

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Speaker 1: which is a business school in France. I'm part of

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Speaker 1: a working couple. I'm a mother of two and for

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Speaker 1: the last six years I've been researching working couples and

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Speaker 1: what makes couples work over there, working life together, and

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Speaker 1: the result is this book that we're talking about together today. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and our listeners a little bit of an intro to

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Speaker 1: this book? Are ready? And I mentioned that this is

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Speaker 1: a very research driven book, So can you tell them

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the methods that you use. I

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Speaker 1: believe you interviewed over one hundred couples to come to

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Speaker 1: some of the conclusions and themes that you came to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I really wanted to make it every such book

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Speaker 1: because there's so little out there that talks about how

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Speaker 1: we can combine our careers together and both have good

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Speaker 1: careers and a healthy relationship. And so I set about

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Speaker 1: following the lives of more than one hundred working couples,

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Speaker 1: and I was really looking for diverse couples so I

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Speaker 1: could look across the lifestyle and life life stages. So

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Speaker 1: these are couples from their late twenties, thirties, forties, all

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Speaker 1: the way through to late sixties and into retirement. The

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Speaker 1: couples from across the world, gay, straight, some ill, intercultural marriages.

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Speaker 1: Real rich diversity there. And what that allowed me to

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Speaker 1: do was really look for the themes that cut across couples.

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Speaker 1: Totally cool, and you did find many themes, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of it had to do with kind of different

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Speaker 1: stages and what tends to happen at each stage. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, the book is based very chronologically, which makes

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Speaker 1: it very engaging to read the way you kind of

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Speaker 1: go through and hear about couples and their infancy and

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Speaker 1: kind of the honeymoon period. And then there are three transitions.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners about those transitions? Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: where the transitions came from in the research was that

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Speaker 1: I found that it wasn't always challenging for dual career couples,

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Speaker 1: But neither was it always a smooth ride, And I

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Speaker 1: found that the challenges tended to cluster around these three points,

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Speaker 1: which in the book I called the three transitions, and

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Speaker 1: the things that trigger these transitions tend to be fairly

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Speaker 1: predictable across couples, although of course the unique things that

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Speaker 1: are going on in couples lives are specific to each couple.

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Speaker 1: So the first transition comes for all couples, regardless of

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Speaker 1: when they get together, in the first few years of

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Speaker 1: their relationship. And this is triggered by the first big

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Speaker 1: life event that creates a hard choice for couples. So

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Speaker 1: this might be a geographic move right, one of us

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Speaker 1: gots offered a great job opportunity on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the country. What do we do? Do we move together,

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Speaker 1: does one person follow? Do we try and do commuting relationships?

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Speaker 1: This is really an end to that parallel living we

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Speaker 1: have in our honeymoon period. It might be the arrival

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Speaker 1: of a first child. All of us who are working

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Speaker 1: parents know that is an end to parallel living. You know,

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Speaker 1: for couples who get together later in life, it might

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Speaker 1: be something like a decision do we blend families? From

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Speaker 1: previous relationships. So all of these things make us have

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Speaker 1: to face the question, how can we make this work?

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Speaker 1: How can we combine our lives in a way that

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Speaker 1: enables us to both pursue the careers we want and

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Speaker 1: also to have a great relationship and the family life

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Speaker 1: we want as well. So that's the first transition, and

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Speaker 1: it's very the fruit. Well, I know you're going to

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Speaker 1: go through all three, but actually I'll start for a

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Speaker 1: second on transition one because I know so many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners are either there or remember just coming out

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Speaker 1: of there and the powerful you know vignette from the

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Speaker 1: book is a couple where the woman literally delivers a

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Speaker 1: baby and her husband like as the baby is born, goes, hey,

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Speaker 1: I got promoted and I'm taking this new job right now,

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Speaker 1: like without even talking to her. And I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know our listeners can kind of, you know, their hair

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Speaker 1: stands on end maybe when they hear that story. What

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Speaker 1: are before we move on, what are some of the

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Speaker 1: strategies that make couples survive that first transition intact? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let me start with what we get wrong, because

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Speaker 1: this is really important. What the classic mistake of couples

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Speaker 1: in the first transition is to focus on the practicalities,

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Speaker 1: so like childcare, geography, finances, you spare bedrooms, and it's

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Speaker 1: natural in a way, we programmed to focus on those practicalities. Right,

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Speaker 1: stuff needs to get done, decisions need to get made.

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Speaker 1: But the problem is, whenever we're at these junctures where

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Speaker 1: we have that initial hard choice, the decision is never

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Speaker 1: about the money, it's never about the childcare. The decision

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Speaker 1: is really about what is the deal in our couple?

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Speaker 1: How are we going to prioritize our careers? For example?

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Speaker 1: Where does the power lie? Who gets to choose all

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Speaker 1: these real fundamental questions around what is the deal behind

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Speaker 1: our relationship? What matters most to us? And so the

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Speaker 1: couples who get through the first transition relatively unscathed, of course,

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Speaker 1: it's challenging for us, all right, are couples who really

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Speaker 1: start with those principles of the relationship, so rather than

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Speaker 1: diving straight into the practicalities, they take some time to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, what really matters to us? What

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Speaker 1: are the yard sticks by which we're going to measure

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Speaker 1: our life, and therefore, what should our decisions be based on.

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Speaker 1: And when couples find some common ground and really have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of what matters to each other in their careers,

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Speaker 1: but also what matters to them in their couple, what

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Speaker 1: kind of couple they're trying to become. Then they can

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Speaker 1: layer the practicalities on top, and then there's a logic

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Speaker 1: to the decisions they've made. And what I find is

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Speaker 1: that if couples don't start with those principles, then what

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Speaker 1: happens is they can spend their lives sinking Google calendars

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Speaker 1: and dividing up chores and they still don't get anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm sure many of your listeners identify with

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Speaker 1: this that you know, you can feel like you're banging

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Speaker 1: your head against a brick call. You know, we're constantly

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Speaker 1: talking about logistics. If you find yourself in that situation,

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Speaker 1: it's very likely that the issue is not the logistics.

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Speaker 1: The issue is that you haven't got sorted really the

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Speaker 1: logic underneath that around what you both want and how

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Speaker 1: you're going to support each other in getting it and

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Speaker 1: to take the time to really have those those deep

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Speaker 1: conversations in a very deliberate way. Absolutely item thing you

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Speaker 1: advocated for, I like one line that you mentioned, and

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Speaker 1: this does kind of relate to logistics, but you say

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Speaker 1: something like, here's my quote, well, a noble ideal. I

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Speaker 1: have found the couples who negotiate the just as well,

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Speaker 1: that is, they're happy with the division of labor, do

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Speaker 1: not resent each other, and can still push forward in

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Speaker 1: their careers. Are those who divide tasks deliberately not necessarily equally.

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Speaker 1: So I thought that was I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of advice out there like this, this ideal or myth

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Speaker 1: of the fifty to fifty marriage. As if I don't

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Speaker 1: know what people do mark off on a chart every

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Speaker 1: time they do the washing up or something, you mop

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Speaker 1: exactly half the floor, exact the floor. I think you know,

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Speaker 1: it's great in an ideal, but in practice, like what

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Speaker 1: does that really mean? And I think we can kill

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Speaker 1: ourselves trying to reach these ideals rather than thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what do we really want, what's important to us, and

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Speaker 1: then going for it, and if it's not exactly fifty

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Speaker 1: to fifty, it doesn't matter as long as we're both

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Speaker 1: happy with it. I love it. Okay. Well, as we

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Speaker 1: kind of transition into the sect to T two or

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Speaker 1: to stage two after T one, I was struck by

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Speaker 1: your three career priority models which kind of come to be,

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Speaker 1: I guess after couples have survived through that very first transition.

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Speaker 1: And I was really actually empowered by some of your

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Speaker 1: findings related to the primary secondary versus turn taking versus

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Speaker 1: dual primary. Can you speak about that. Yeah, So one

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Speaker 1: of the key things couples need to decide on in

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Speaker 1: this first transition is what is their career prioritization model.

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Speaker 1: So primary secondary is maybe what we think of as

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Speaker 1: the classic career prioritization model, where both people have careers,

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Speaker 1: but one person's takes the primary career takes more priority.

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Speaker 1: So if there's a geographic move, they would lead that.

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Speaker 1: If there's you know, late working, they would get priority

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Speaker 1: or work travel, and the other person still has a

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Speaker 1: good career but they take the lead at home. Then

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Speaker 1: there's turn taking, where couples just take turns to have

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Speaker 1: the primary career and the secondary career. And the third

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Speaker 1: is double primary, which a lot of people are doing

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Speaker 1: these days of the younger generation, which is they set

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Speaker 1: some boundaries so for example, well, you know, we're never

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Speaker 1: going to leave Chicago, but within that we're both going

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Speaker 1: to try and have full careers. And I was really

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Speaker 1: interested when I went into my research is which is

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Speaker 1: the best right, which is the most successful? And when

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Speaker 1: I say successful, of course I don't mean which is

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Speaker 1: most likely that you become the CEO. I mean which

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Speaker 1: is are you most likely to be fulfilled in you're

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Speaker 1: thriving in your career and in your relationship. And when

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Speaker 1: I did a first analysis of the data, it looked

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Speaker 1: like the double primary was the most successful. And initially

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Speaker 1: I was like, yes, because this is my model. And

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Speaker 1: then I was a little bit suspicious because any researcher

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Speaker 1: can tell you that their data tends to tell you

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Speaker 1: what you want to hear the first time you analyze.

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Speaker 1: Because yes, funny that I found what I was looking

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Speaker 1: for exactly. So I went back in to the data,

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Speaker 1: and of course there were successful couples in each model.

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Speaker 1: So I took those out and looked, okay, what's really

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Speaker 1: the commonality among them? And what I found was very simple. Actually,

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Speaker 1: the couples that worked were couples who'd very explicitly negotiated

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Speaker 1: what their model was. Now, the only reason there were

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Speaker 1: more double primaries is it's such a difficult model. It's

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Speaker 1: so challenging with so many balls in the at a

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Speaker 1: juggle that you have to have those conversations, right, It

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Speaker 1: forces you into those conversations. And the reason I love

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Speaker 1: this finding is it's like anything can work. There's no prescriptions.

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Speaker 1: It's the way you go about the choice that matters.

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Speaker 1: And I think, like you, I found this incredibly freeing

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Speaker 1: because I think all working couples are fed up of

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Speaker 1: being told what they should do, and this finding was like,

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Speaker 1: it really doesn't matter what you do, it's all about

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Speaker 1: the way in which you get to that decision. Well,

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Speaker 1: and the truth is, in meanstream media and in other

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Speaker 1: books that are maybe less research and more just someone's opinion,

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Speaker 1: we're not told that like we're told the exact opposite.

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Speaker 1: So it was incredibly refreshing to see that you actually

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Speaker 1: looked at this and you know not only yes, maybe

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Speaker 1: double primary even one in your first glance, but even

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Speaker 1: the finding that they all work. I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: that's exciting enough and was one of my favorite parts

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Speaker 1: about reading your book. We're going to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and then move on to the phase of interdependence. Hey, listeners,

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Speaker 1: and as we've just talked about moving through that first transition,

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Speaker 1: the next phase is something called interdependence, I believe, and

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Speaker 1: then comes transition to Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about this next phase. Yeah, So the next phase

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Speaker 1: is a relatively stable period in between the first two transitions.

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Speaker 1: And I say relatively because, of course, it depends on

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Speaker 1: how well couples navigate that first transition. So couples who

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Speaker 1: take the time to really explicitly negotiate that career prioritization model,

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Speaker 1: who really think mindfully about the logistics, tend to have

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Speaker 1: a period which is fairly plain sailing. Now. Of course,

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Speaker 1: life happens, right we all have kids that get sick

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Speaker 1: or work emergencies, but without that as a couple in themselves,

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Speaker 1: that tends to be a stable period. The couples who

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Speaker 1: worked through that transition a little less well, that road

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Speaker 1: may be maybe more bumpy, of course, but eventually all

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Speaker 1: couples reach the second transition point. And what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: this transition point is it's not linked to the stage

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Speaker 1: of our couple. It's linked to the stage of our career.

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Speaker 1: So transition one you go through eventually, whether you get

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Speaker 1: together eighteen thirty eight or sixty eight, you're still going

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Speaker 1: to get to it. Transition two is a transition which

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Speaker 1: is linked to the midpoint of our careers. And it's

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Speaker 1: really important to understand the psychology behind this because if

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Speaker 1: we think of our careers in our twenties and thirties,

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Speaker 1: where many of your listeners are right now, it's a

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Speaker 1: stage where we're striving for a lot. Right we're building

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Speaker 1: our careers, we're getting our foot on the ladder, we're

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Speaker 1: building our relationships. For some of us, we might be

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Speaker 1: building a family as well. And the path we take

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Speaker 1: is always a mix between what we want and social expectations.

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Speaker 1: Now we never like to admit that, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: The path we choose is a mix of you know,

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Speaker 1: for example, you know, our parents were doctors, so we

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Speaker 1: use them as role models, or our peers at college,

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Speaker 1: we're all applying for this great industry which was hot

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Speaker 1: at that time, so we did as a well. Or

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Speaker 1: you know, this is what smart things, smart kids do

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Speaker 1: in our culture. And in many ways that's not a

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Speaker 1: bad thing, right. Those are people who care about us,

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Speaker 1: They love us, they want us to be successful, and

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Speaker 1: so we get on a good track. But what happens

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Speaker 1: at mid career point is many of us start to

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Speaker 1: feel maybe this isn't really what I want to be doing,

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Speaker 1: and that may not be wholesale change. Right I want

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Speaker 1: to go and start up a company that make cupcakes

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Speaker 1: or something really radical. It might just be you know,

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Speaker 1: I just feel like I need to reorient. It's not

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Speaker 1: quite the direction I want, and it's a time of

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Speaker 1: quite emotional turmoil. And for anyone who's in that stage

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Speaker 1: right now, they'll know it. There's a lot of existential questions, Right,

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Speaker 1: what do I really want in my life? What do

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Speaker 1: I want in my relationship, which direction do I want

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Speaker 1: to go in? There's also a feeling, and I'm at

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Speaker 1: this stage now, so I personally identify with it. There's

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Speaker 1: a feeling that, you know, I still have a lot

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Speaker 1: of my career left, but if I want to make

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Speaker 1: a shift in direction, it's now. You know, there's more

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Speaker 1: of a sense of urgency around finding that path because

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Speaker 1: I've not got the ever left right. It's not quite

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Speaker 1: a now another situation, but there is a sense of urgency.

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Speaker 1: And this existential questioning puts a lot of pressure on

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Speaker 1: couples because when we see our partners wrestling with these questions,

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to feel threatened in our relationship. Right,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is my fault. Maybe there's something wrong with

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Speaker 1: our relationship. Maybe they're not happy because I'm doing something wrong.

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Speaker 1: And this is a time where there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: conflict in couples as both people try and wrestle through

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Speaker 1: these questions. And what I find at this point is

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Speaker 1: what really helps couples is to change the way we

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Speaker 1: think of how we support each other. So classically, when

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Speaker 1: we think of a supportive relationship, a romantic supportive relationship,

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Speaker 1: we think of the kind of good old British tea

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00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 1: and sympathy. Right, So we think of like, I'm going

386
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: to tell you everything's going to be okay, and I'll

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00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: plump up your self esteem and make you feel great

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Speaker 1: yourself and that's wonderful, right, Who doesn't like that? But

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00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we do not need at this stage

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Speaker 1: because if we're wrestling with those existential questions, we don't

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Speaker 1: need to be in our comfort zone. We've got to

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Speaker 1: get out of our comfort zone to explore different options

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Speaker 1: and find a way forward. And if we stay in

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Speaker 1: that comfort zone, we essentially stay stuck. And so couples

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Speaker 1: have to shift their model of support from being this

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Speaker 1: kind of very cozy, very close support to being what

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00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 1: I call in the book a secure base. Now, what

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00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 1: a secure base is is, yes, it has that nice,

399
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: cozy support, but it also has essentially a loving kick

400
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: up the ass, right, which is a push out of

401
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: the comfort zone. Say, I know you are struggling, but

402
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,719
Speaker 1: you cannot stay in this comfort zone, right, You've got

403
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: to get out, which also means a movement away from

404
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: the safety of the relationship to explore new territories, to

405
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: think of new options, to experiment with different paths. This

406
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: is really hard to do in a couple because when

407
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,719
Speaker 1: we're feeling threatened, our natural tendency is to hold our

408
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: partner close. It's very normal, and we have to almost

409
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: override that to be like, Okay, I've got to have

410
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: the courage to say what my partner needs is actually

411
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: for me to let go and push them away, for

412
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Speaker 1: them to explore and discover and then kind of rejoin afterwards.

413
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: That's a really tricky thing to do in a couple. Yeah,

414
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: that sounds very difficult, and I'm sure this is why

415
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: sort of the whole midlife crisis narrative, you wind up

416
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: with a lot of people splitting up, and you know,

417
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: we're best case scenario. Hopefully there's just like a red

418
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 1: sports car involved, and you know, you just go from that.

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Speaker 1: But but then you know, if the couples that sort

420
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Speaker 1: of make it through that, then then the third transition

421
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 1: is is sort of even more broad of this like

422
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: what we want out of life? I guess absolutely, And

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Speaker 1: I also think it's worth talking about the period in

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Speaker 1: between because what I find is, yes, if you look

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Speaker 1: at divorced statistics, it is there is a peak for

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00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 1: divorce around that time. However, the couples who can provide

427
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: this secure based support to each other and make it

428
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 1: through very often enjoy a period of real renewal in

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00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: their relationship and in their careers. So this period after

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Speaker 1: the second transition is a really exciting, growthful period, and

431
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: so I think it's important that your listeners understand it's

432
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 1: not like slogging through the trenches and or we collapse

433
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: on the other side. It's like, it's really if we

434
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: slog through those trenches, we can get to an amazing

435
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: new pasture. And many couples at this stage have a

436
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: period of incredible growth after it, and then eventually they

437
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: come to the third transition. And the third transition is

438
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: at a time when our social roles are changing, right,

439
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: so we're no longer the bright young thing that's climbing

440
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: up the ladder and kind of setting the world on fire.

441
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: We no longer if we're parents, those active hands on parents.

442
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: Maybe our children are at college or just about to

443
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: leave for college. So it's a time of huge change,

444
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: and it's really this mixed world. So on the one hand,

445
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: there can be a sense of loss, especially for women. Honestly,

446
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: you know, losing that full time mother role is quite

447
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: shocking for many of us and for fathers as well,

448
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: and also this loss that you know, I'm not this

449
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: high potential thing anymore. I'm you know, the leaders or

450
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: the mentors of them, if I'm lucky. But it's also

451
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: a time of enormous opportunity, and this is because the

452
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: structure of our careers is changing. So partly it's because

453
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: our lives are getting longer, which means our careers are

454
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: getting longer. So if you rewind thirty years, this transition

455
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: came at a point that was very close to retirement,

456
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: so we were essentially on the down ramp off our careers.

457
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: But it now comes at a time in our mid

458
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: fifties where we've definitely got ten, maybe fifteen, even twenty

459
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: years of our careers left, so we have a shot

460
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: at really doing something different. And it also comes at

461
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: a time in our structure of society and organization that

462
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: our career paths are very different from how they were.

463
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: It's no longer that we just climb one ladder. There's

464
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: huge opportunities with the gig economy, for example, for freelancing,

465
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: portfolio work, entrepreneurship. There's different career options that we enjoy

466
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: that no previous generation has had access to, and in

467
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: our thirties and forties they can be harder to grasp

468
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: because quite frankly, we have responsibilities. We have a morg

469
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: college fees on the horizon. We are to distracted by

470
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: the logistics of life and hold it all together desperately

471
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: and right in the middle of it, I know. But

472
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: when we get to that slightly later period, many of

473
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: those commitments are behind us or close to being behind us.

474
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: You know, kids have gone through college, the mortgage may

475
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: be paid off, We've done that career striving, and suddenly

476
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: we can do the things that people at my stage

477
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: in their mid forties are kind of saying, Well, one

478
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: day I would love to do some volunteer, or I'd

479
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: love to do something in the community, or I'd love

480
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: to go on a board of a not for profit.

481
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: Suddenly those horizons are open. So the trick for couple

482
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: at this stage is to, you know, not get stuck

483
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: in those losses, but really broaden their horizons and say, Okay,

484
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: I don't just need to focus on my career, my

485
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: relationship children. Then fall into bed at the end of

486
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: the day and wake up again and repeat. You know,

487
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: I can really broaden those horizons and open up. But

488
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: oftentimes for couples, this is a tricky time relationally because

489
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: the project that holds many couples together for decades is children.

490
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: And when children go. You know, many people said to me,

491
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I sort of woke up and thought, who

492
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: are you? You know that we've been living together all

493
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: this time, but we've grown apart even though we've been

494
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: under the same house. So there can be a lot

495
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: of relationship repair work to do in that transition to

496
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: enable couples to grab that wealth of opportunities. Wow, so

497
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: a lot of guess where you could just you know,

498
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: spread out your children enough that you're still in there

499
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: doing that forever five years and you're fine, exactly. I

500
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: have I have one question for you more personal, Jennifer,

501
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: which is, after doing all this research, what if any

502
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: changes did you make in your own relationship or relationship

503
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: with your career or your partner based on your research. Yeah.

504
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: So it's kind of therapy of thoughts, right, And I

505
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: know when you know, Sigmund Freud always said all all

506
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: social sciences autobiographical, and I completely agree with that. It did.

507
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: I think the one thing in terms of my personal

508
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: career and then I'll come onto my relationship. Is it

509
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: really made me start thinking more broadly. I think, you know,

510
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm forty three now, and I think, you know, I'm

511
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: really been in that period of striving, striving, striving, building, building, building,

512
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: and I think I I'd got some tunnel vision, and

513
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: I think many people do at that stage. It's like

514
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: next step, next step, And it's really made me start

515
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: to look broader. Now I'm not my husband jokes and

516
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: I say this, I'm not quite ready to jack it

517
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: all in and buy the ski chalet and move to Switzerland,

518
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: although that is coming at some point. But I'm certainly

519
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 1: thinking more broadly in terms of what's next rather than

520
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: just kind of this tunnel vision. And that's really been

521
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: quite opening for me, and I think in terms of

522
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: in terms of our relationship, I mean, it's somehow brought

523
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: us closer together, you know, talking about all these other

524
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: couples and discussing the book and things. And I also

525
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: think it's made us start thinking about that third transition,

526
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: because we're not there yet, but you know, we're both

527
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: mid forties. It's not that far away. You know, our

528
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: son started at middle school. He turned eleven, and you know,

529
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: the shock that you're buying someone a mobile phone and

530
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: on all this sort of stuff. Is this realization that

531
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: he's lived at home longer than he's ever going to

532
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: live at home in total really starts us getting in

533
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: touch with the fact that actually we are going to

534
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: be empty nesters in not that long a period of time.

535
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: And how are we going to prepare for that transition

536
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: in a way that we're still close together and we're

537
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: not dealing with regrets? Yeah? Wow, so cool, so inspiring.

538
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: I Laura, do you have any other questions for Jennifer. No,

539
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess one question is if you are

540
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: realizing that you need to approach this conversation deliberately, As

541
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: you said, what makes couples work is that they have

542
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: deliberate conversations. I mean, we are a logistical podcast here.

543
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: How do you recommend it? I mean, like, honey, I

544
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: got some deep questions we need to talk about, Like

545
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: what are there good ways to kind of approach this conversation. Yeah. So,

546
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: first of all, it's a set of conversations. It's not

547
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: a one off, and it's really important to recognize that

548
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: because it's not like, Okay, I'm going to go home

549
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: tonight and we're going to fix everything to night is

550
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: the night. Although there were some there were some vignettes

551
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: where it sounds like there were like very intense weekends

552
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: where the couples would have these like life changing epic

553
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: kind of like before sunrise kinds of conversation. So tonight,

554
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 1: I recommend you take the bull by the horns. And

555
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: if there's one thing I would recommend, it was sort

556
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: of if you have kids, you know, put the kids

557
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: in bed, take some time, put the phones away so

558
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: you have some undivided attention, and take some time reflecting

559
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: on three things together. And it might be that you

560
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: take a few notes on your own first and then

561
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: sort of discuss together, or it might be that you

562
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: just talk about them. I'm kind of a little doodler,

563
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: so I would doodle first. But the first one is

564
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: what really matters to us? Now, this might include your

565
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: personal career goals. Also what matters to us a couple.

566
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: What kind of couple do you want to be? Right

567
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: and adventurous couple, A couple who's really embedded in the community,

568
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: whatever that is. It might be some goals, some financial goals, right,

569
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: what's really important to is maybe we want to build

570
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: a nest egg big enough so that when we get

571
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: to that second transition, we can afford to take a

572
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: radical career chain. You know, it might be goals around family,

573
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: goals around location. It's really important to find some common

574
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: ground in that area and discuss them first of all,

575
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: so you really understand what your partner wants and how

576
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: you can support them and vice versa. But also it

577
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: makes decisions easier, right if you're clear on what your

578
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: priorities are. When things come up, it's easier to say, well,

579
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: do they are line? Is that going to help us

580
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: get to where we want to go or not? And

581
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: if the answer is no, don't do it. One of

582
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: the biggest traps we fall into us working as a

583
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: working couples is we take on too much, right we

584
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: like the kids in the suite shop. We can't say

585
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: no to things, which is really the path to hell

586
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: right when we start doing that stuff. The second thing

587
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: to talk through is what are the lines we're not

588
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: going to cross. This is slightly more difficult to talk

589
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: about because you need to have some common ground here.

590
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: It's not like career goals where they're obviously going to

591
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: be different. But it's really important to know this because

592
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: it defines what's the field we're playing on. Right, might

593
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: be a geographical line, you know, we're just going to

594
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: be based in this city or these few cities. And

595
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: even if you get an amazing career opportunity but it's

596
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: somewhere else, the answer is no, You've got to know

597
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: the playing field. It's also really important to think about

598
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: lines around time. How many hours a week do you

599
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: need to work for it to really negatively impact my career.

600
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: If that's explicit, we can see when we're getting close

601
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: to this point where we're going to start hurting each other. Likewise,

602
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: maybe work travel for those of your listeners who they

603
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: or their partner travels a lot. Again, it's a really

604
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: important boundary to negotiate what's too much, you know, what's

605
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: too much for my career, what's too much for our

606
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: family if we have one, you know, what's too much

607
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: for our relationship. And it's really counterintuitive because we're brought

608
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: up in a culture that tells us more choice is better,

609
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: but that's not what the research shows at all. The

610
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: research shows very strongly that the more choice we have,

611
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: the harder it is to choose, and the more likely

612
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: we are to regret our choices. So actually having these

613
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: lines restricts our choices, which is a very very good

614
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: thing for us in this day and age. And the

615
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: final thing, and the things which is probably hardest to

616
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: talk about, which is why you want to talk about

617
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: it last, is what are the things we're worried about happening?

618
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: What are our fears in this relationship? And that's very

619
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: important because very often our fears are baseless. So I

620
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: remember talking to one couple who were thinking about having children,

621
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: and he had a very mobile job. He was on

622
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: the road a lot, and she was really worried that

623
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: if they had kids, she would be like by far

624
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: and away taking the majority of the child rearing responsibilities.

625
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: So she was kind of delaying this even though she

626
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: really wanted children. And I spoke to him and he said,

627
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, I can't wait for us to be pregnant

628
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: because I've already found the role that I'm going to

629
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: move too, because I don't want to miss out on

630
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: the parenting. And so they'd reached this real roadblock around

631
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: kids for no reason other than she was so afraid

632
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: that this thing which she'd can vince torself, would happen?

633
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: Would happen? They were getting themselves in a real mess.

634
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: And so it's really important to share our fears because firstly,

635
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: they may be baseless, and secondly, if our partner understands them,

636
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: they're much more likely to be sensitive around them. And

637
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: how so, it doesn't take long. You don't need a

638
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: log cabin with a fire roaring. Just take some time

639
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: tonight to start that conversation and make talking about those

640
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: things into the fabric of your relationship that it becomes

641
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: a habit that you revisit ever so often, and it

642
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: becomes part of one of the conversations that's alive in

643
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: your couple. That's great, I love it. Put it on

644
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: the calendar calendar, so just do it. Let's do it.

645
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: Do it well, especially if you don't need the log cabin,

646
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: although that sounds really really nice. Actually, so, Jennifer, we always,

647
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: we always end we have our guests a segment we

648
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: call Love of the Week, which is just something that

649
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: is floating our boats at this particular moment, something good

650
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: in our life. It can be broad or specific, and

651
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: we can go first so that you can listen to

652
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: ours and see if you'd have one you'd like to contribute. So, Sarah,

653
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: what do you have for us this week? Yeah, so,

654
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: believe it or not, we my husband and I are

655
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: off tomorrow. We're basically sending the kids to our nannies

656
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: for Friday night and Saturday night and taking Friday off

657
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: from work to have a little couple's staycation. So what

658
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: a perfect opportunity to have some couples that work kind

659
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: of conversations and also just relax them have fun. So

660
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm very excited about that. Yeah, they've been looking forward

661
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: to this for a while. They had a couple's trip

662
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: weekend trip this summer that got canceled due to some

663
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstances. So really this is our makeup make up

664
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: for that. So that's great. Yeah, we're we well, similarly

665
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: not getting away, but we are definitely having a big

666
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: conversation this weekend about a lot of sort of big

667
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: choices related to home renovation or whether we're moving, or

668
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: you know, the various logistical things that need to happen

669
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: ahead of this this next baby. And so that's I

670
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: actually like the idea of knowing there is a time

671
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: to discuss this, and that makes me feel like, Okay,

672
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: good now I don't have to think about it the

673
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: rest of the time because we're going to think about

674
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 1: it for this particular period of time and I'm hoping

675
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: we emerge with some clarity. So having that on the calendar,

676
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: the discussion is my love of the week. Well, my

677
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: love of the week, and I'm about to show this

678
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: to Sarah and Laura I have at the webcam is

679
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: these two chipmunks I love you that I look up

680
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: in Central Park. So i do not travel a lot

681
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: for work, and I'm on the road for three weeks.

682
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: I'm going home at weekends. But I have two children

683
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: and these chipmunks are now Pietro and Ariana, and I've

684
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 1: been taking photos of them everywhere I went and sending

685
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: them back to the kids and it has made such

686
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: a difference. So the kids are now so excited about

687
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: where they're going to see the chipmunks next and how

688
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: the chipmunks and they know that when I get home,

689
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: they will get the chipmunks. So top fip for any

690
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: traveling parents. Buy some chipmunks. They are totally crude. And

691
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: that is a great level of the week. That is awesome. Well, Jennifer,

692
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for

693
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: joining us today, and for all our listeners, please pick

694
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: up a couple, pick up a copy of her book,

695
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: Couples That Work, and get some great more advice about

696
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: how to make your relationship work. So, Jennifer, thank you

697
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: so much for being here. Thank you, thank you well.

698
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: That was an awesome interview. We're going to move on

699
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: to our Q and A, which has to do with

700
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: a slightly different topic of evenings and energy levels after work,

701
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: perhaps something that people are figuring out as they're going

702
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: through that first transition that Jennifer talked about. All right,

703
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: here we go. I'm finding that I often don't enjoy evenings,

704
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's because I have difficulty managing my

705
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: energy level after work. I often feel drained as an introvert.

706
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: I really need time to myself to recharge. But to

707
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: spend time with my son, I went until after he

708
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: goes to bed. We have about two hours together in

709
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: the evening. Much of that time is centered around dinner, bath,

710
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: and getting him ready for bed, with some extra time

711
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: for walks and play and reading books. But I'd like

712
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: to have more energy in general to enjoy this time

713
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: with him more. The person rights I know you are

714
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: an introvert as well, Laura, and was hoping you'd have

715
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 1: some tips for better evenings. I don't feel like shifting

716
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: my schedule to wake up earlier and get off of

717
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: work earlier is a good option for me because my

718
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: six am to six thirty wake up is as early

719
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: as I've ever been able to convince myself to do. Yeah,

720
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: probably me too. I really resent the idea of setting

721
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: an alarm for anything before six and five five is

722
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: dropped data never before five. So two reasons that this

723
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: one's for you, and you know I get it. I mean,

724
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: I am quite introverted. You wouldn't necessarily know that from

725
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: meeting me. But it's not about ability to interact in

726
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: social situations. It's more that you get your energy recharged

727
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: from being alone. And I definitely like to say, sit

728
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: with my coffee and read a book and that's what

729
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: charges me up for the day, whereas being in a

730
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: room with like fifteen people kind of makes me feel

731
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: like I need to take a little break after a while.

732
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: But fortunately I spend my day in a home office

733
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: where absolutely no one can bother me without my permission,

734
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: which is awesome. So given that that is not the

735
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 1: reality for our listener, who has written in that she's

736
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: in an office where there are people bugging her all

737
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: day about various things. I think she needs to view

738
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: her commute as some of this me time slash decompression time,

739
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: Like so maybe she needs silence on the way home.

740
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: It maybe that she's been stacking in calls in order

741
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: to leave earlier, or something that's probably not a great idea,

742
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: like why why don't we just leave this as open space?

743
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: Maybe you could listen to not even voices, Like podcasts

744
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: are awesome, you should love definitely listen to best of

745
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: both worlds, but maybe do that in the morning, Like

746
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: on the way home, listen to I don't know, movies,

747
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: soundtracks or classical music, something that's very sort of soaring

748
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: and uplifting, but not words that you feel like you

749
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: need to be listening to. You could even build in

750
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: a small stop on the way home, Like ten minutes

751
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: is not much in the grand scheme of things, but

752
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: having say ten minutes where you drive by a park

753
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: on your way home, go walk around for ten minutes,

754
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: and then get back in your car might make you

755
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I've had this me time. I've had

756
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: some silence. I've decompressed, and now I can go into

757
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: the demands of being a mom for the evening and

758
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: I'll be okay, So, you know, or just read in

759
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: a parking lot if there's no conveniently placed park on

760
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: your commute, like just pull into McDonald's parking lot and

761
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: reading a book in there and then go home. But

762
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: building in that ten minutes is not huge in the

763
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things in terms of when you're getting home,

764
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: but I think will help you feel completely different about

765
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: the situation. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I we

766
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: definitely have a lot of a routine, so I don't know,

767
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: when you have a toddler sums, it is hard to

768
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: convince yourself to do something in the evening because you

769
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: might break that magical bedtime spell. But I say, maybe

770
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: take yourself out of the equation. Did you say that already, Laura,

771
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: I don't think you did. Like, wait to take one

772
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: night off. Yeah, like take a night off or something.

773
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: See if you can arrange that, either with childcare or

774
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: your partner. And then I also find that, especially if

775
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: there's one kid, you can kind of stretch out the

776
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: parts you like and maybe minimize the parts you don't.

777
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: So if bath is annoying, maybe don't do a bath

778
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: every day and do like a longer book reading session

779
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: or a longer maybe you like bath, and do like

780
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: a really nice long bath. I mean, whatever it is

781
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: to minimize the pain of it feeling like a slog

782
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: because it can, and it's okay. You don't have to

783
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: be guilty about that or tell yourself that you're supposed

784
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: to be enjoying every second of this bedtime routine that

785
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: you do seven nights a week. I mean, reality is

786
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: you're not going to enjoy it, and it's tough. Adding

787
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: a layer of guilt about not enjoying it is only

788
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: going to their takeaway enjoyment. So try to make it

789
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: the best of what you've got. I guess yeah. I

790
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: would say also just with needing to relax and recharge

791
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: and chasing around a toddler is very not conducive to that.

792
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: But if you can strap them into something that helps

793
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: a lot. So definitely work that walk angle, Like if

794
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: you can build in some time for an evening walk.

795
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: If he's in the stroller, he's not going anywhere, and

796
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: so you can kind of tune out a little bit

797
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: and and that can feel completely different than chasing him

798
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: around the house for an equivalent period of time, So

799
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: definitely look into that. I kind of like that as

800
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: an introverttach like, stick your baby in a stroller, maybe

801
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: walk around to some soothing I don't know, classical music

802
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 1: or even silent music reviewer. Yeah, soundtrack, that's I like that. Yes,

803
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: all right, Well, this has been the best of both worlds.

804
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: We've been talking with Jennifer Patilliary about couples that work,

805
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: and we will be back next week with more on

806
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You

807
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 1: can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or

808
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find

809
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been

810
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next

811
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: time for more on making work and life work together.