Speaker 1: If you really want to have some understanding of the
Speaker 1: struggles of modern golf and the struggles of being Phil Mickelson,
Speaker 1: you really have to read this book. Put another log
Speaker 1: on the fire nobody hears get the time. Hello, this
Speaker 1: is Alan Schipnak. Welcome back to the fire Drill Podcast.
Speaker 1: This is a new little platform for us here at
Speaker 1: the Collective that we're using to cover breaking news and
Speaker 1: we'll blow it out for event coverage, especially the major championships.
Speaker 1: And we have some breaking news today. UM, it's a
Speaker 1: big one for us here at the fire Pit Collective.
Speaker 1: The dean of the Golf Beat, the greatest living golf writer,
Speaker 1: a hero to many of us, Michael Bamberger, as of today,
Speaker 1: is a full time staffer with the FPC. UM For
Speaker 1: a scrappy little startup company like ourselves, it means a
Speaker 1: ton and we're extremely excited to um blow out all
Speaker 1: of Michael's many talents as as it happens, he's here
Speaker 1: on the line right now, Michael, Thanks for joining us
Speaker 1: in more ways than one. Alan couldn't be happier. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. I've got my own FPC microphone now,
Speaker 1: so I really feel like I'm in the club. I
Speaker 1: know a year or ten years or twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: you would never expected that I would be someone who
Speaker 1: would have my own microphone. And yet here I am
Speaker 1: so thank you for that, Alan, thank you for all
Speaker 1: your encouragement to uh to get me here, and I'm thrilled.
Speaker 1: So what was your first byeline back in Martha's Vineyard?
Speaker 1: Did you remember the first story you ever had up
Speaker 1: here in print? Oh? Yeah, it would go yeah, it
Speaker 1: would go back to the uh mid seventies. Really, uh,
Speaker 1: writing for my for my local paper, covering the golf
Speaker 1: team that I played for for our local paper, you know,
Speaker 1: writing about yourself in the third person, Mike Barnberger shot
Speaker 1: a fine forty seven something like that, And uh, it
Speaker 1: hasn't really advanced very much since then. I'm I'm referring
Speaker 1: to my golf game. Well that maybe my writing as well. Well.
Speaker 1: One of my first really, my first gig was uh
Speaker 1: for the Sealinas, Californian when I was a stringer for
Speaker 1: high school sports, and um, you know I did. I
Speaker 1: played basketball and I ran track, but I would cover
Speaker 1: the football games that my friends were part of at
Speaker 1: Selia's High and I'd always have inside jokes in the newspaper,
Speaker 1: and I would always drop their names for no apparent reasons,
Speaker 1: so it's analogous. But uh no, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: for a man, it's well, I don't want to I
Speaker 1: don't want to say your advanced age. But for someone
Speaker 1: who's you know, on the back nine of their career
Speaker 1: to uh, it's awesome that you're you're taking the plunge here,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, at our the last year, I
Speaker 1: felt a little weird because we've been on the same
Speaker 1: masthead since the mid nineties that Sports Illustrated, and then
Speaker 1: when I left, when I left Golf Magazine, there was
Speaker 1: almost exactly, you know, twelve months that we were We
Speaker 1: were not colleagues. We still had our meals and our
Speaker 1: rounds of golf. But uh, you know, why don't you
Speaker 1: tell the listeners about a few of our misadventures in podcasting?
Speaker 1: Like everyone remembers the waffle House of Washington Road with
Speaker 1: the manager bitching at us and Hotel California in the background,
Speaker 1: But where are some other places that we've done some
Speaker 1: unusual podcasts. It's really weird what resonates with people. But
Speaker 1: I have heard about that waffle house session, uh, numerous times.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it's our equivalent of Cheryl
Speaker 1: Crowe and her Tuesday night sessions. You know, which which
Speaker 1: UH would which have a certain family. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: as you and I have said many times, alanah side
Speaker 1: aside him, you know, maybe him and a few him
Speaker 1: ideas and a few others, there aren't that many people
Speaker 1: in this world who really understand each other's lives and
Speaker 1: the uh you know, the weird difficulties and joys of
Speaker 1: them both. And you know, just thinking about your warm
Speaker 1: welcome there for a minute, but I often think about
Speaker 1: UH six the US Open. UH was at Shannakaka. Grew
Speaker 1: up in Patrick, which is about thirty miles away along
Speaker 1: Suffing County, Long Island, and I sat behind a columnist
Speaker 1: for Newsday named Joe gurg And I know you've got
Speaker 1: people like this in your own mind. And Joe Geron
Speaker 1: was on deadline riding up Brave Floyd's when sitting with
Speaker 1: colleagues and having the time of his life. And you
Speaker 1: and I've had that experience many many times. And uh,
Speaker 1: I remember just last year at the Ryder Cup. Alan,
Speaker 1: tell me if you remember this, you may not, because
Speaker 1: we've had discussions like this probably literally a thousand times.
Speaker 1: But you and I were sitting next to each other
Speaker 1: at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits and uh, and
Speaker 1: we're sitting there, we're you know, we got our notes
Speaker 1: and we got our laptop and we got our fingers,
Speaker 1: and I just said, it's just a weird, fulfilling, great
Speaker 1: thing to have this idea in your head and you're
Speaker 1: going to transmute it if that's a word from your
Speaker 1: brain to your fingers, into the laptop and then out
Speaker 1: into the world. And you know, to me, it was
Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, our Watson nucleus moment of like,
Speaker 1: and you were like, you didn't say these words, but
Speaker 1: this is what it was. This is what you were saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what it's all about. Just like Big Jack said
Speaker 1: to Tom that day. Do you remember that moment at all?
Speaker 1: I do, Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, the the adrenaline
Speaker 1: of of writing on deadline. It's still the most powerful
Speaker 1: drug guy I've tried, and I've tried a few lately,
Speaker 1: but Southern California living, I mean a lot. Every morning
Speaker 1: Karmel was micro dosing mushrooms like you might as well.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's uh, it's just the energy of it.
Speaker 1: And it's more pronounced now with you know, we used
Speaker 1: to back when we're just writing for Sports Illustrated magazine
Speaker 1: as are called grick Lips used to call it UH.
Speaker 1: You know, we have all night. We have sort of
Speaker 1: had the luxury of time, and that was our biggest advantage.
Speaker 1: And everyone else had to file their stories right away
Speaker 1: for their newspaper and we didn't. We have until the
Speaker 1: next morning, and so you could really ruminate, and you
Speaker 1: could spend all night. And I watched the sunrise plenty
Speaker 1: of times from from press rooms and hotel rooms. But
Speaker 1: you know, now we're writing for UH, for the internet
Speaker 1: and and speed kills. I mean, if you take two
Speaker 1: extra hours to make your story better, you might miss
Speaker 1: the whole readership that one's gone to bed so um
Speaker 1: so trying to capture the moment and do it quickly.
Speaker 1: And and that went in the rooms doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, we all have egos. We want our
Speaker 1: story to be the best. And it's really it's hard
Speaker 1: to replicate that feeling. And I'm not going to suggest
Speaker 1: it's the exact same thing that a golfer feels on
Speaker 1: the back nine when they're trying to win a big tournament.
Speaker 1: But it's our version of it, and it is addictive
Speaker 1: and it's fun. Yeah, it's see how you and I
Speaker 1: will compare notes and we often see things in a
Speaker 1: similar away or we're drawn to something similar in our reporting.
Speaker 1: We've talked about this, you know, we show up at
Speaker 1: the same odd spot, just uh, just the two of us,
Speaker 1: and then to read our stories afterwards, and like the
Speaker 1: way we write it up is so totally different and
Speaker 1: sometimes not sometimes very similar. But but no, no, just no,
Speaker 1: just different, just different, just different takes of different emphases. Um,
Speaker 1: but that's fine. Uh, you know right now, for some reason,
Speaker 1: my mind's going, and I know we bring this up
Speaker 1: from time to time. We wrote on uh, the US
Speaker 1: Open at Pebble Beach, what year word have that been?
Speaker 1: Two thousand nineteen, Allen when when Woodland won? And uh,
Speaker 1: and we were we both wrote and they were in
Speaker 1: deadline and then we're in that tavern room at the
Speaker 1: tavern is what they call alan the tavernet and in
Speaker 1: the Pebble Beach club House room the tap the tavern. Uh.
Speaker 1: For some reason, I'm just thinking right now about after
Speaker 1: Gary Woodland won the US Open a Pebble Beach two
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen. We both we both wrote on Deadline and
Speaker 1: you're a little wired and but also looking to relaxed
Speaker 1: a little bit. And we went to the tap room
Speaker 1: um in the in the Pebble Beach Lodge and it
Speaker 1: was packed and we knew a lot of people, and
Speaker 1: Jordan's Speed came over and just started chatting us up.
Speaker 1: And Uh, just a million moments like that that we've
Speaker 1: had together that are just fun and make you feel
Speaker 1: like part of the fabric of the game. Uh and Uh, Anyway,
Speaker 1: I look forward to doing a lot more of that
Speaker 1: in the future. Well, you're bearing the lead. We went
Speaker 1: to the tap room because we were going to record
Speaker 1: our podcast We're looking a place with a guns, but
Speaker 1: it was closed to the public. You have to be
Speaker 1: you haved be staying at the lodge. But because you know,
Speaker 1: I've been around Pebble Beach forever, we sneaked in. But
Speaker 1: there were so many players there, justin Thomas and remember
Speaker 1: Thomas and speak wood Eventually, yeah, there was a big
Speaker 1: table that was saved. It became obviously it's gonna be
Speaker 1: for Woodland, and uh, we kind of detected the vibe
Speaker 1: wasn't right to put out these giant microphones and podcasts
Speaker 1: that we just enjoyed the whole scene. But um yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there was an Italian restaurant in St. Louis
Speaker 1: after the Bell Reeve p GA we were recording a
Speaker 1: pod and they're like sweeping under our feet, like trying
Speaker 1: to close up on Sunday night. And I remember we
Speaker 1: found a weird little nook in the clubhouse at Aaron Hills,
Speaker 1: Like that's one of the fun things is to find
Speaker 1: these places that have ambiance and a sense of place.
Speaker 1: And um yeah, mean that's definitely for for those who
Speaker 1: are listening. That's one of the one of our goals here.
Speaker 1: Mike and I are going to podcast a lot um
Speaker 1: when in Tulsa, we'll probably do daily podcasts from the
Speaker 1: PG Championship, just recapping the acction. We're gonna try and
Speaker 1: bring in some other voices, whether it's Jeff Ogilvie or whomever.
Speaker 1: And um, you know, we all love your typing, Michael,
Speaker 1: and it's it's going to remain the foundation of your
Speaker 1: professional life. But at your old shop, you're kind of
Speaker 1: an underutilized asset as far as podcasts and video storytelling.
Speaker 1: And even social media, which we know we're not gonna
Speaker 1: get a Twitter, but I'm kind of I'm kind of
Speaker 1: scooping myself here, but I'm gonna a wash of bamberger
Speaker 1: Um account that probably I'm going to maintain. This will
Speaker 1: help us some other FPC staffers and um, just you know,
Speaker 1: it's it should be a big moment anytime you drop
Speaker 1: a story like we we got to get it out
Speaker 1: into the world. So we're looking forward to, uh to
Speaker 1: promoting and just getting in front of readers, most of
Speaker 1: them already are familiar. But um, you know, if there
Speaker 1: there's been a little lag and in in promotion of you,
Speaker 1: of your material, so that that's an institutional priority here.
Speaker 1: And I know you hate to hear that, but it's true. No,
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what does trigger you know, when
Speaker 1: when there was some talk about me joining Fire Pick
Speaker 1: Collective and I was, you know, definitely intrigued from the beginning,
Speaker 1: and there was a little bit of sense like uh oh,
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, we'll want you to podcast
Speaker 1: and maybe do some some videos as well, and like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe you know I might be resistant of that, And
Speaker 1: I truly feel the opposite. I feel like we're in
Speaker 1: a period now where you want to reach people where
Speaker 1: they are. And you know, to use Matt's phrase, Mattel's phrase, Uh,
Speaker 1: our colleague, both n s I and now again, you
Speaker 1: know what does you say, uh, read, listen, watch. I
Speaker 1: don't know I have the order correct, but I totally
Speaker 1: believe that reach people where they are. We have something
Speaker 1: we want to convey. It's storytelling in different forms, and
Speaker 1: it's all good. And you see the New Yorker has
Speaker 1: embraced that spectacular early. And and I'm very devoted to
Speaker 1: New Yorker and I do I read, I watched, and
Speaker 1: I listen. Uh. And so we're gonna we're gonna do
Speaker 1: the same thing. And I and I and I welcome it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just interesting. I mean, it's a big investment for
Speaker 1: you or I to fly off and do a story
Speaker 1: for just to type it up. But it's a slightly
Speaker 1: larger investment. But if you bring a if you bring
Speaker 1: a video crew and you bring your podcasts gear, uh,
Speaker 1: it amplifies it and it gets people excited about it.
Speaker 1: Not even's gonna read the story, but someone watch the video.
Speaker 1: So I gonna listen to the podcast, and it's just Um.
Speaker 1: You know Sports Illustrated with slow to embrace that. Golf
Speaker 1: Magazine was slow to embrace that. But that's really kind
Speaker 1: of the foundation of what we want to do here
Speaker 1: is just reach people in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1: And so it's gonna be fun to um, you know,
Speaker 1: to blow it to blow it out with you, Michael,
Speaker 1: because the reason you're so good on camera is because
Speaker 1: you don't try at all. And I mean that as
Speaker 1: a compliment. You know, the rest of us try too hard,
Speaker 1: but you literally don't care, and so it comes across
Speaker 1: as genuine and real in a way that can't be faked.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be it's gonna be fun to do
Speaker 1: more of that stuff. Good, thank you. Yeah. Um, well,
Speaker 1: I guess this would be a good time to um
Speaker 1: to pay some bills. So I'm gonna think a couple
Speaker 1: of our corporate sponsors will help us keep the lights
Speaker 1: on at the fire Pit Collective. One is a good
Speaker 1: Walk Coffee. I think they were the first company that
Speaker 1: actually advertised with us, going back almost a full year
Speaker 1: when when we just launched this thing. As you know, Michael,
Speaker 1: I've always been a hot chocolate guy, but I've lately
Speaker 1: tried to become an adult and drink coffee, and the
Speaker 1: good Walk coffee is freaking good. So I would encourage
Speaker 1: people out there to check it out. And uh, if
Speaker 1: you use a fire pit code, you'll get a nice
Speaker 1: little discount. And then that's also par points golf, which
Speaker 1: is another great supporter what we try and do. And
Speaker 1: we got to test this out together, Michael, I think
Speaker 1: you'll actually enjoy is this new scoring system for golf.
Speaker 1: It's not based on strokes, it's based on points, and
Speaker 1: you can't you create your own golf course. It's pegged
Speaker 1: to the yardage of the whole, so you can play
Speaker 1: any t you want. You can even drop a ball
Speaker 1: in the middle of the fairway. The closer you are,
Speaker 1: the few of the points you get. But it also
Speaker 1: becomes strategy. If you're playing against a long hitter, can
Speaker 1: they carry the hazard but you can't. You can you
Speaker 1: can start your hold in front of the hazard. And
Speaker 1: it's great for beginners and kids who are kind of
Speaker 1: I think live in fear of the dreaded like triple
Speaker 1: Bogey and um and also for kids like every video
Speaker 1: game they play, whatever they do, the point is to
Speaker 1: is to get as many points as possible, and golf
Speaker 1: has tried to take the fewest strokes and I think
Speaker 1: for for for kids, it's kind of like cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1: They want the points. So anyway, thank thanks to uh,
Speaker 1: thanks to those folks for what they do. Because journalism
Speaker 1: is is expensive. Then um where we're you're trying to
Speaker 1: keep this whole thing going. So I look forward to
Speaker 1: learning more about both those uh things that you just mentioned. Uh.
Speaker 1: I'm a black coffee drinker and I haven't tried a
Speaker 1: good walk coffee yet. But but I'm but I'm eager
Speaker 1: to Uh our son who's a tremendous coffee snob, speaks
Speaker 1: of flavor notes and coffee, so I'll be busy. I'll
Speaker 1: be here to have him and tried it in baron
Speaker 1: Burger and tell uh, tell me what flavor notes I
Speaker 1: should be talking about. Um, but and and and as
Speaker 1: for the what's the other group called part points? Well,
Speaker 1: part points, you know, I'm not familiar with that. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna read up on that. That's very interesting, but uh,
Speaker 1: I have for years UH when playing with like minded
Speaker 1: UH golfers. I'm surprised you and I haven't done more
Speaker 1: of this. And maybe we've done some of it. Uh,
Speaker 1: winner calls the t So whoever has the honor choose
Speaker 1: where you're gonna tee off from. And you could, you know,
Speaker 1: you can take a foreigndred yard Part four and turn
Speaker 1: into a you know, a d seven yard Part three
Speaker 1: if that's your if that's what you want to do
Speaker 1: at any point, and you know, play to your straints
Speaker 1: or whatever you might want to do. And uh, people
Speaker 1: need to be more inventive about the game. So whatever
Speaker 1: these guys are talking about, I'm in favor of. And um,
Speaker 1: you know it's easy. Uh. The U s A is
Speaker 1: an authoritative figure in our lives and always dictating how
Speaker 1: the game should be played. Uh, but you know it,
Speaker 1: golfs a lot older than the U. S j A.
Speaker 1: So the idea of you know, creating your own scoring system,
Speaker 1: just having the joy the game, the fun of the
Speaker 1: game anyway it happens. Um, obviously it's part of why
Speaker 1: we play. So, um, I'll be eager to learn more
Speaker 1: about that as well. Yeah, it is sort of freeing
Speaker 1: because uh, you know, if you're playing a GLIC like
Speaker 1: there's some courses, feels like every part three is like
Speaker 1: a five iron, you know, the way they set it up.
Speaker 1: It's a design flaw and it's like, gosh, I wish
Speaker 1: this would be so much cooler if you played it
Speaker 1: all the way back, or you played it as a
Speaker 1: little hundred yard or and uh, if you're playing off
Speaker 1: the scorecard and traditional golf, you don't grant yourself that liberty.
Speaker 1: But the whole point is to have fun. You might
Speaker 1: as well play the hole as you want to play it,
Speaker 1: so uh, it's kind of nice to be given that permission.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I need that permission. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you've already figured that out a long time ago,
Speaker 1: But I just kind of play the courses it's presented
Speaker 1: to me. But I guess that's kind of an outdated view.
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting how at US opens in particular. Um,
Speaker 1: if the U s JA does have any fun in
Speaker 1: terms of changing team positions radically from what the practice runs,
Speaker 1: are players freak out And it should be the opposite.
Speaker 1: They should embrace the challenge of, oh now I got
Speaker 1: to figure out something on the on the fly, and
Speaker 1: the better players would welcome that more. Uh, But they don't,
Speaker 1: And I think it's telling. Well. I always think about
Speaker 1: Jim Fear at the Olympic Club on the final round
Speaker 1: the year that Webb Simpson won, went on that part
Speaker 1: five I think sixteen. The tea's way up and it's
Speaker 1: this big dog leg and he couldn't figure out how
Speaker 1: to play the whole about of making a killing bogey.
Speaker 1: And after we just bitching about it, well, they didn't
Speaker 1: put the teas there to practice, rouser, how are we
Speaker 1: supposed to know, We'll figure it out, Jim one of
Speaker 1: the best players in the world, like number three all
Speaker 1: time on the money list, Like figure it out. Then
Speaker 1: I thought it was such a weird complaint. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: that would be like Tom Brady complaining, well, we didn't
Speaker 1: practice against his defense. They threwout us in the fourth quarter,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't fair, Like come on, man and Marian
Speaker 1: had that famous when Phil Mickelson, uh struggled with the
Speaker 1: long part three and Uh, I played the whole the
Speaker 1: other day with the driver by the way and and
Speaker 1: drove it on the ground. Who cares. It's still get
Speaker 1: the ball in the hole and the fewest strokes possible,
Speaker 1: or in this other form that you're talking about, get points.
Speaker 1: So I don't know much about how that works. But yeah,
Speaker 1: as you say, figure it out, it's part of the
Speaker 1: part of the joy of the game. That was an
Speaker 1: A plus humble brag there, Michael effortless. Not only the
Speaker 1: Mary and tea time, but you know you drove it
Speaker 1: all the green like that. Impressive. Well, now the guys,
Speaker 1: the guys started playing with any four are and so
Speaker 1: it was really a humble bag. It was more like
Speaker 1: gout a necessity. But you know what, I find that
Speaker 1: that's a that's a very telling moment from Phil's career.
Speaker 1: That's two thousand. It's a final round and um, they
Speaker 1: put the teas all the way back. Phil had dropped
Speaker 1: his driver that week because Marian plays short. He added
Speaker 1: a fifth wedge and he gets up there and he
Speaker 1: needed more club. He tried to smash his three wood
Speaker 1: made double bogie, veering off the tea. He got in
Speaker 1: Mike Davis's face and was barking at him like, bro,
Speaker 1: you're trying to win the US Open, Savior energy to
Speaker 1: make part, not to complain to the setup guy. And
Speaker 1: even though you know, Davis later told me, well, the
Speaker 1: wind switched and maybe was into the wind. It was
Speaker 1: playing too long, and you know, Phil might have had
Speaker 1: a point, but the larger point is to get to
Speaker 1: get so distracted and flummix that you're you're in the
Speaker 1: face of the setup. Dude, when when you got to
Speaker 1: go like try and win the US Open Like that
Speaker 1: was a telling moment on Phil, I thought, very much so.
Speaker 1: And this will probably a wonderful moment to segue into
Speaker 1: our raised on debt today. Um uh to talk about
Speaker 1: your new book, Allan, Uh? Are are you ready to
Speaker 1: do that? Yeah? Yes, it's you know, the release date
Speaker 1: now is whatever, less than two weeks away. Thank god.
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this book for years and and
Speaker 1: then you know, we dropped that excerpt back in February
Speaker 1: and things got a little crazy, and it's been so
Speaker 1: much build up. So I'm happy to talk about the
Speaker 1: totality of the book and not just little teases and
Speaker 1: and have to hold off like it's cathartic to actually
Speaker 1: be able to talk about it in full. So I'm ready,
Speaker 1: if you are, I am. Let's let's just start right there.
Speaker 1: Because it's the weirdest record in golf to have six
Speaker 1: runner up finishes in US Opens. The math would you
Speaker 1: would you would think it is impossible? Uh? For for
Speaker 1: that to happen. Um, Now, did you cover all six
Speaker 1: runner ups or yeah, uh, what stands out most in
Speaker 1: your mind? Which is the most colossal of them? To you?
Speaker 1: That is such an inititing question because they all have
Speaker 1: their their own backstory. I mean, um, you know, shinna
Speaker 1: cock and O four is some of the best golf
Speaker 1: that Fills ever played in his life. And you know,
Speaker 1: the course went over the edge and he made that
Speaker 1: double bogey on the seventy one hole, And in reporting
Speaker 1: this book, I've never heard the story like that. He
Speaker 1: had a little pebble behind his ball in the bunker
Speaker 1: and he tried to you know, hit a different kind
Speaker 1: of bunker shot to miss the rock. His ball came
Speaker 1: out with no spin and you know, makes a killing
Speaker 1: double bogey even though he played you know, Tita green
Speaker 1: probably the best, probably the best ball striking week he's
Speaker 1: ever had. Um. And he's still rused that one, I
Speaker 1: think more than others. You know, we talked about Marion,
Speaker 1: but you know on thirteen, that little that little part
Speaker 1: of three feels like five wedges in his bag and
Speaker 1: somehow he picked the wrong one and he flies the
Speaker 1: green and it's just like all time growner you know,
Speaker 1: and we can go through each of them, but you know,
Speaker 1: I think Pinehurst is the one that that that resonates.
Speaker 1: I went really deep on it in the book because
Speaker 1: it was really Phil's first chance to win a major.
Speaker 1: There was the whole drama of of Amy about to
Speaker 1: give birth and bones carrying the beeper, and then you know,
Speaker 1: losing Payne Stewart so soon after that just gave the
Speaker 1: whole thing a mythical quality. And um, I hope it's
Speaker 1: not too much for readers, but I just and Tiger
Speaker 1: was in the mix, and v J and you had
Speaker 1: you had David Duval with his singed fingertips from the
Speaker 1: scalding kettle. There was just so much happening that week,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I I'd talked to Amy and
Speaker 1: Phil about at length through the years, and um, you
Speaker 1: know the kind of the life and death that defines
Speaker 1: that tournament, and I think that one stands out. But
Speaker 1: you know, it's going through the book and really researching
Speaker 1: these tournaments. One thing I had forgotten is how many
Speaker 1: little puts Phil missed in crunch time that really mattered.
Speaker 1: You know, the seventeenth hole at Pioneers. She's got a
Speaker 1: five footer. Um he misses that. Um, you know Bethpage,
Speaker 1: Uh the first time went with Lucas Glover one. You
Speaker 1: know he's got like a three and a half footer
Speaker 1: on the closing holes. He misses that. You know, obviously
Speaker 1: he the seventeenth hole a shinnecock and you know four
Speaker 1: he you know, he three puts from five ft there
Speaker 1: on the seventy feet hole. Like it's just man, he
Speaker 1: not only was he there, but it was within his
Speaker 1: grasp so many times. And then I think probably my
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the whole book is coming down
Speaker 1: the stretch at Wingfoot and going through that whole thing
Speaker 1: in forensic detail and having everyone from Johnny Miller to
Speaker 1: Andy North to Hale Irwin critiquing phil and Bones and um,
Speaker 1: it's just I was out there when it happened. I
Speaker 1: was standing right there in the eighteenth fairway, and I
Speaker 1: caught up with film the locker room when he was
Speaker 1: he just gotten ghostly white and really was probably in
Speaker 1: some sort of clinical shock, and um, it's just indelible
Speaker 1: that whole thing. And I love that part of the book.
Speaker 1: And when when I was I read the audio book,
Speaker 1: which was his own kind of fun challenge, and when
Speaker 1: I get excited, like the producer would always like slow down,
Speaker 1: slow down. I He's like, I know something good's about
Speaker 1: to happen because you start speeding up and kept in
Speaker 1: the Shinnekock chapter. Man, I was like racing. We had
Speaker 1: to do it over and over because it's just like
Speaker 1: for me, I almost like I feel like I'm there
Speaker 1: again and hopefully I can transport the reader a little bit.
Speaker 1: But um you know, they're just it's the it's his
Speaker 1: entire career distilled into fifteen minutes really, and it's it's
Speaker 1: utterly fascinating on every level. And have so many voices,
Speaker 1: you know, Johnny Miller, you like on down the line,
Speaker 1: I think, um, I think it. We all know the
Speaker 1: broad strokes of what happened. But when you that's the
Speaker 1: fun of a book. We have a limited h well
Speaker 1: somewhat unlimited time and unlimited space, and you can just
Speaker 1: keep bringing in more layers and more layers, and um
Speaker 1: so yeah, reliving the US opens was was a fun
Speaker 1: part of the of this tale because it's, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: it's really incredible. On one hand, you wouldn't have given
Speaker 1: how you know, among the all time greats feel is
Speaker 1: probably the worst driver of the golf ball, without question.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't expect him to contend to the open. The
Speaker 1: fact that he kept throwing himself in there speaks to
Speaker 1: his his grind and his escapability. Um. But but then
Speaker 1: he was there so often to never get it done.
Speaker 1: It's it's really, it's really, um, it's really an incredible
Speaker 1: part of his legacy. You know, just the way you
Speaker 1: answer that question, Alan uh Uh, brings to mind this
Speaker 1: for me. The book has so much energy, just like
Speaker 1: your answer that question did. And you know, people are
Speaker 1: accustomed to writers who love the game and are serious
Speaker 1: about the game, whether it's Herbert Warren Win or any
Speaker 1: number of other people going in depth about golf events
Speaker 1: from yesteryear, and unless you're really dearly deeply into it,
Speaker 1: it can be very boring. This book is the total opposite.
Speaker 1: This book is super conversational, super emotional, very fast to
Speaker 1: read in the best sense of it. And because you
Speaker 1: were there, you are there as the reader. I mean,
Speaker 1: you really feel like the whole thing is unfolding, like
Speaker 1: you're watching a highlight reel, but with your commentary, your
Speaker 1: insight and all the people you bring into it along
Speaker 1: the while so everyone knows at this point who follows
Speaker 1: the game about Phil and live golf in your role
Speaker 1: in that we can talk about that later, And that's
Speaker 1: one reason to come into the book. But anybody who
Speaker 1: loves golf and is interested in how this singular career
Speaker 1: has unfolded would be doing themselves a tremendous disservice if
Speaker 1: they don't read it because you don't like I'll often
Speaker 1: say this about Augusta National, this is fantasy stuff. But
Speaker 1: if you really want to soon Augustine Nashville, you've got
Speaker 1: to go to a master's, you gotta watch on TV,
Speaker 1: and you have to have a chance to play the course.
Speaker 1: If you've done all three, then you really can you
Speaker 1: can really sort of appreciate the masters in its totality.
Speaker 1: If you really want to have some understanding of the
Speaker 1: struggles of modern golf and the struggles of being Phil Michelson,
Speaker 1: you really have to read this book. And it's a
Speaker 1: total joy. It's loaded with energy as you are, Alan,
Speaker 1: and uh I feel privileged to have read it early on,
Speaker 1: and and uh uh and I'm so and I'm so,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you wrote it and uh so
Speaker 1: so with that in mind and thinking about we we
Speaker 1: know the qualities of the people who dwell in US opens.
Speaker 1: There Ben Hogan, Jack Nicholas, Tiger Woods Hailer, when I mean,
Speaker 1: there are three of the greatest, all similar in highly
Speaker 1: intelligent but an applauding kind of way. And then you
Speaker 1: have this crazy intelligence of Phil Michaelson, which is very
Speaker 1: left brain, very creative and would like you would think,
Speaker 1: as you were just saying, would never do well in
Speaker 1: the US open. And there he is contending again and again.
Speaker 1: So I guess at least this question, Alan, Um, how
Speaker 1: would you characterize Phil Michelson's intelligence to somebody? Hm, that's
Speaker 1: really interesting. Well, he for starters, he's a great conversationalist,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of funny stories in the book
Speaker 1: about Phil just dominating these dinner parties. And Um, I
Speaker 1: think it was it was David's love who's told me, Uh,
Speaker 1: Phil is the only guy who out here who enjoys
Speaker 1: pro ams because he can get paired with a doctor
Speaker 1: or a pilot and then he can he can pick
Speaker 1: up five or six little factoids and then he'll regurgitate
Speaker 1: him for the rest of his life as if he's
Speaker 1: an expert and I thought that was very telling. You know,
Speaker 1: it's become such a cliche about Phil, but he does
Speaker 1: want to be the smartest guy in the room, and
Speaker 1: he loves the sound of his own voice. And um,
Speaker 1: to his credit, he has quite a memory, you know.
Speaker 1: His one of his college teammates told me, you know,
Speaker 1: Phil definitely has a photographic memory, because he would take
Speaker 1: my notebook for tests and he would, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: all all the notes from class and he would study
Speaker 1: it and you can get a hunters on the test.
Speaker 1: And then I'd missed all these questions and Phil would say,
Speaker 1: it's right there on page six on the bottom, you dumbass,
Speaker 1: like like it's in your own handwriting, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: he does have an ability to recall, and me, I
Speaker 1: can I can think of this was like a parlor
Speaker 1: trick that Phil used to do when he'd roll into
Speaker 1: a new city for a tournament and it would be
Speaker 1: all the local press and you start talking about the
Speaker 1: roster of their NFL team, and he could go like
Speaker 1: one through forty nine, like he knew who the backup
Speaker 1: punter was and um, uh you know, now was he
Speaker 1: the night before was he pulling over the roster to
Speaker 1: make sure he got it right. Probably, I mean, there's
Speaker 1: his performative but um, he does have a crazy recall
Speaker 1: for for my nusha. Um. But at the same time
Speaker 1: it doesn't always serve him well that that need to
Speaker 1: to show off and to get in the final word.
Speaker 1: And um, so I think feels a very smart guy.
Speaker 1: I don't think he's quite as smart as he thinks
Speaker 1: he is, but that's part of what makes him fun
Speaker 1: and ridiculous, and um, it gets him in trouble. You know,
Speaker 1: we started shooting off his mouth, whether it's about Tiger's equipment,
Speaker 1: and on the merits, he was probably correct. Then there's
Speaker 1: a funny quote from Nick Foldo saying saying that, like
Speaker 1: what Phil said was hilarious because it was true. He's
Speaker 1: like Tiger's driver was terrible and um but of course
Speaker 1: that that's nuance in the moment, Tiger had eight major championships,
Speaker 1: Phil had zero, and it didn't make sense for Phil
Speaker 1: to be popping off, right, But you know, was he
Speaker 1: was he strictly speaking correct, Yeah, Tiger had not maxed
Speaker 1: out the latest technology and his equipment wasn't fear to
Speaker 1: feels from a performance standpoint, But Tiger obviously knew what
Speaker 1: he was doing and could use it in an effective way.
Speaker 1: So so shout up Phil. But um, so that that's
Speaker 1: that's what's the tension in Phil's life is that he
Speaker 1: always has to be right. You know, he wants to
Speaker 1: show that to you that he does know what he's
Speaker 1: talking about, and it gets him in trouble up to
Speaker 1: including you know, his all the Saudi stuff. So but
Speaker 1: he's a fun character. You'd rather have that than someone
Speaker 1: who's brooding and internal and you never know what's on
Speaker 1: their mind. And um, Phil will tell you what he's
Speaker 1: thinking and feeling. And um. You know there's a quote
Speaker 1: from Stewart Sink in the book. You were talking about
Speaker 1: the Ryder Cup and Phil's mixed legacy and of course
Speaker 1: Tigers as well. This this stat blows my mind. Tiger
Speaker 1: has been on one winning Writer Cup team his entire career.
Speaker 1: It's absolutely unbelievable because he missed some from injury and
Speaker 1: and other things. And um, but you know Stuart Sink
Speaker 1: was saying, it wasn't that Tiger didn't care, as some
Speaker 1: people suggested. It was that he had a way of
Speaker 1: doing it, which was keeping everything close to the vest
Speaker 1: and he would he thought his job was to go
Speaker 1: in five points and that was it, That's all that mattered.
Speaker 1: But Phil wanted to talk everything through, and he wanted
Speaker 1: to get people invested in the process, and he wanted
Speaker 1: to to team build, and he wanted to strategize. And
Speaker 1: there's just the really the difference in their personalities. And
Speaker 1: you know, Sink said, I would rather have Fiel's way.
Speaker 1: You know, that's what it's about, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: in this team setting. Um so um there. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just interesting how how different those two
Speaker 1: characters are, and how how different feels from almost any
Speaker 1: other tour pro or even modern athlete in his his
Speaker 1: need to overshare, which is great for for those of
Speaker 1: us in the typing business. And of course you can
Speaker 1: engulf as in life, you can only be yourself, uh he.
Speaker 1: He can't try to be hall Ruin because he's nothing
Speaker 1: like Kiler Ruin. Um. But be interested to know your
Speaker 1: take on this, uh In. Jim, you know, we both
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with Jim Bones mcguy. You know,
Speaker 1: we're both very very fond of him. I would say,
Speaker 1: when you talk to Bones, his golfing mind is I
Speaker 1: think less emotional and more, how's the ball sitting? What
Speaker 1: can you do with it? Where can you miss? Um?
Speaker 1: When it's all said and done, what do you think
Speaker 1: bones Is contribution is to Phil his career? Would Phil
Speaker 1: have one more or less without Bones? Of course, there's
Speaker 1: no real answer to that question. But but what's your
Speaker 1: overall take on Phil's or Bones contribution Phil's career? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was part of the tension of watching them work together,
Speaker 1: is because they are different and in their constitutions, and
Speaker 1: I think how they think about golf, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I have some fun getting this whole notion that you know,
Speaker 1: the bones will get one veto and people have heard
Speaker 1: that through the years, but some of those stories are
Speaker 1: really funny, and um, I think I think Bones was
Speaker 1: such a steadying influence for Phil. And even even if
Speaker 1: you know, there's a quote in the book from Phil,
Speaker 1: He's like, if we're between the seven and eight iron
Speaker 1: and he wants me to hit the seven, I can't
Speaker 1: live in I want to hit the eight. I can't
Speaker 1: live with going following his advice and going over the green.
Speaker 1: I can live with hitting my club and coming up
Speaker 1: short because that was my choice. And so you know,
Speaker 1: I think that was it. That's how a lot of
Speaker 1: golfers are, but it was exaggerated with Phil because there
Speaker 1: was so much conversation, so much discussion, so much information. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: he always had to do it his way. And it's
Speaker 1: it's amazing that Bones lasted twenty five years and that
Speaker 1: given that tension. Um. But I think beyond the actual strategizing,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, feel such a wild card and
Speaker 1: he's so flighty and and Bones is so rock solid,
Speaker 1: and it gave him some ballasts you know, day to
Speaker 1: day that Phil really needed. You know. Of course he
Speaker 1: wins w g C with his brother and he wins
Speaker 1: you know, when Phil went to Tim Michelson as his
Speaker 1: caddie and he wins the PG Championship at age fifty.
Speaker 1: So we've seen this many times in golf, where a
Speaker 1: guy pulls his agent or his girlfriend out in a
Speaker 1: pinch and they go on to win. We all know
Speaker 1: the players are the most important part of the equation.
Speaker 1: But I think I think Bones brought um an important
Speaker 1: component to just to fill existence and um, you know,
Speaker 1: part of I get into this, this duality with Phil
Speaker 1: and Tiger a fair amount in the book, and one
Speaker 1: of the things that always hurt Tiger from a public
Speaker 1: relations standpoint was the people around to him were so disagreeable.
Speaker 1: You know, Steve Williams is tossing cameras into a pond,
Speaker 1: and we all know Mark Steinberg's Asian as doctor no
Speaker 1: because he never wanted to help reporters with anything. And
Speaker 1: Ellen Woods was a total cipher who never I don't
Speaker 1: think was ever really quoted by any reporter except for
Speaker 1: People Magazine after the scandal um um. Whereas Phil had
Speaker 1: these people around him who were very giving. You know,
Speaker 1: Amy is is chatty and fun and she'll tell you things.
Speaker 1: And you know, Rick Smith, the swing coach, was super
Speaker 1: you know, media savvy, almost probably too much so he'd
Speaker 1: love to be quoted. But Bones was really a key
Speaker 1: person in that whole equation where he forged a lot
Speaker 1: of relationships with different reporters and he would tell you
Speaker 1: stuff you needed in a pinch. And you know, Tiger
Speaker 1: spoke after every round, good or bad, and he's never
Speaker 1: got enough credit for his professionalism. You know, Phil, he
Speaker 1: played bad, he would storm off plenty of times, but
Speaker 1: Bones was kind of there to like pick up the
Speaker 1: pieces and he would fill in the gaps for the
Speaker 1: reporters and that really helped fill in an important way
Speaker 1: from a public perception, because, um, you know, Bones was
Speaker 1: just I mean I remember talking to him two thousand
Speaker 1: thirteen US Open Marion. I texted him said I'm trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what the hell happened on the thirteenth hole,
Speaker 1: and he called me and told me, And it was
Speaker 1: really important for my story. Like you know, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna get that from Steve Williams. You I can't get
Speaker 1: that from too many of their caddies in the heat
Speaker 1: of that moment. That just the crushing disappointment. Um, and
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to have a resource like
Speaker 1: that for all of us reporters was really important for
Speaker 1: for the for telling phil story. And So I don't
Speaker 1: know would would fill one more or less with a
Speaker 1: different caddy. That's hard to say, but I don't think
Speaker 1: he would have had as much good will and I
Speaker 1: don't think, Um, you know, Bones, if you look at
Speaker 1: if you go to a tournament, he's more popular than
Speaker 1: all but probably fifteen players out there as far as
Speaker 1: name recognition and fans sentiment. And I mean I did
Speaker 1: put a podcast with him years ago, and it was
Speaker 1: like the most downloaded golf podcast that sports had ever
Speaker 1: had more than other players, just because he's such a
Speaker 1: good storyteller and such an anecdotal thinker. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's there's an X factor there that was important to fill.
Speaker 1: But would you would have been a Hall of Famer
Speaker 1: and one of bunch tournaments? You know? Certainly? Um, but um,
Speaker 1: you know who knows. I think they're so inseparable that
Speaker 1: it's hard to think about Phil's career without him. It's
Speaker 1: very very well said and very interesting, you know. And
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised to hear that about about how people
Speaker 1: responded to your podcast of Bones because with Bones, and
Speaker 1: one would say definitely of Lee, Trevino and Arnold even
Speaker 1: Uh and others through the years, it is really all
Speaker 1: about the Gulf and Uh, and part of why we
Speaker 1: get frustrated with Phil Entiger, you would say the same.
Speaker 1: And with Phil it is about the Gulf and then
Speaker 1: all his theorizing and other stuff. So he's sort of
Speaker 1: you know, it's part of the joy of Phil, and
Speaker 1: it is Phil, but it's not that pure, even though
Speaker 1: he does have a pure obsessiveness with golf. But there's
Speaker 1: always lots and lots of other stuff. Uh, going on
Speaker 1: going on with Phil Alan, how do you weigh this?
Speaker 1: You you obviously have a lot of affection uh for Phil. Um.
Speaker 1: Some people may not realize this, but you know, if
Speaker 1: they grow up on the on this really antiquated notion
Speaker 1: of you know, the reporter as an unbiased person. Well,
Speaker 1: first off, we are reporters as a starting point, but
Speaker 1: then we're more to it, and of course we do
Speaker 1: bring all of our human experience and center and our
Speaker 1: motion to it. But so for you, writing about Phil
Speaker 1: as much as you have, and especially in this book,
Speaker 1: how do you weigh your genuine affection for Phil and
Speaker 1: for Amy and for how good he is with reporters, um,
Speaker 1: with how frustrating and self absorbed and actually difficult he
Speaker 1: can be at times. How did you weigh these two
Speaker 1: things in the writing of the book. Well, that that's
Speaker 1: what makes feel so interesting is he talked about flavor
Speaker 1: notes in coffee. He has every flavor note I mean
Speaker 1: as as a human being. Like if he was just
Speaker 1: one or the other, he would be far less interesting.
Speaker 1: But he's everything, and he can be incredibly charming, and
Speaker 1: he can also be petty and vindictive, and he can
Speaker 1: be hilarious. Um. And and he he has a great
Speaker 1: needle and he can be really fun to be around.
Speaker 1: And he can also be a total dick, and um,
Speaker 1: he could be incredibly thoughtful and gracious, and there's just
Speaker 1: there's so many warring impulses within him. And I think
Speaker 1: that's what makes feel so fascinating. You know, most of
Speaker 1: us are we are who we are, and it's it's
Speaker 1: a little easier to define. But he he runs a
Speaker 1: gamut of human emotions like uh within and that that
Speaker 1: was a fun challenge in this book was to capture
Speaker 1: all of that. And you know, I certainly celebrate his
Speaker 1: philanthropy and all his random acts of kindness and his
Speaker 1: mentorship to young players, and he doesn't He puts a
Speaker 1: lot of great vibes out into the world and does
Speaker 1: a lot of really good things, and that's all in
Speaker 1: the book. But um, he also has a tendency to
Speaker 1: be his own worst enemy. And um, you know, all
Speaker 1: the scandals and controversies are in the book too, And
Speaker 1: that that's why I think feels a fun character to
Speaker 1: read about, because he's just so unique and he's he's
Speaker 1: had a very big life. I mean, um, there's there's
Speaker 1: just funny things too to get into that I had
Speaker 1: forgotten or I never knew. I mean, like you go
Speaker 1: back to Walker Cup in Ireland and Phil hits a
Speaker 1: ball into the rough and plays a shot and later
Speaker 1: a camera camera person interviewer asked him about it and
Speaker 1: he says, oh, yeah, I don't want to I don't
Speaker 1: want to hit over there because the irishmen are not
Speaker 1: that attractive. And it just became an actual international incident,
Speaker 1: like Phil had. The Irish consulate demanded an apology that
Speaker 1: Phil had the tape and on one hand, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a little throwaway comment and he
Speaker 1: was just trying to be funny, but it became such
Speaker 1: a big deal and it it defined the whole Walker
Speaker 1: Cup and inevitably Phil's match in singles becomes the most
Speaker 1: important one, and he's his crazy ass flop shot off
Speaker 1: a hard pan lie to the last hole to save
Speaker 1: par to win the match and win the Walker Cup
Speaker 1: for for the United States, and it's like his whole
Speaker 1: life and a microcouse him, like the genius with the
Speaker 1: golf club in his hand, the recklessness when he open
Speaker 1: in his mouth. Um. But also it's kind of funny.
Speaker 1: I mean, like umnent. We have to appreciate it because
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good line. I have nothing against Irish woman.
Speaker 1: I've met some very attractive ones. But it's just a
Speaker 1: funny thing to say in that context no other golfer
Speaker 1: would ever say. And um so, like it's totally forgotten
Speaker 1: and it's insignificant to his life, but to relive that
Speaker 1: and talk to Paul McGinley and talk to Bob May
Speaker 1: and David Faye and all the people who are there, Like,
Speaker 1: it's a really funny couple of pages in the book,
Speaker 1: and it tells you like that's you know, Phil still
Speaker 1: an amateur, right, Like that's who he was, And thirty
Speaker 1: years later, he's still stepping in it. He's still like
Speaker 1: creating these wildfires for himself, and um and so to
Speaker 1: to bring some of these to life and the points
Speaker 1: not to like kill the guy, Like I think the
Speaker 1: whole the whole Walker Cup thing is hilarious, but um
Speaker 1: it was. Did it define that whole week for him
Speaker 1: and his teammates? Yes? And uh So, there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot of moments like that in the book where it's
Speaker 1: just fun to get into Phil's pensiont for you know,
Speaker 1: stepping uh stepping on his own toes. Well, you just
Speaker 1: used a really interesting phrase, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of listeners or some listeners wouldn't necessarily know that you
Speaker 1: were never trying to kill the guy. You are just
Speaker 1: trying to present the guy as he really is, the
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of Phil, which is why he's so interesting.
Speaker 1: But it does segue into into this question. We saw
Speaker 1: Tiger's life turned upside down. Um, you know, an incredibly
Speaker 1: short amount of time, we've seen Patrick reads or with
Speaker 1: some of these cheating allegations. Uh, much the same. Those
Speaker 1: kind of evolved over time. In my life, we saw
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's life get turned upside down. In my life,
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen somebody go from being
Speaker 1: the he did something absolutely spectacular and and and I'll
Speaker 1: do this very briefly, and then you gave me your
Speaker 1: your take on it. Just a year ago, at age fifty,
Speaker 1: winning the PGA Championship, and not just winning the PGA Championship,
Speaker 1: but beating Brooks kept go down the stretches, playing part
Speaker 1: to do on a tough, long, difficult golf course where
Speaker 1: a lot can go wrong. Now they were wide ferries,
Speaker 1: there were there were some technical things that that definitely
Speaker 1: lend itself in his favor. But here's the golfer on
Speaker 1: the ultimate high. To go from that perch to tumble
Speaker 1: down to where he is so quickly, it's absolutely stunning. Um,
Speaker 1: I would say you played no role in it. Others
Speaker 1: would disagree with that, But I'm wondering, can you give
Speaker 1: us your overall sense of what it's been like for
Speaker 1: you to be a player in this story and an
Speaker 1: observer of this story, to go from here to here
Speaker 1: in Shakespearean terms, You've never in the world of sport,
Speaker 1: you almost have never seen anything like it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: been a little disorienting, I mean, I'm sure. Yeah. When
Speaker 1: when writing up all the Saudi stuff in the book,
Speaker 1: like I knew it was gonna create a buzz and
Speaker 1: that people would be interested, I didn't think it was
Speaker 1: so explosive because to me it was obvious that Phil
Speaker 1: was working both sides of the street and that he
Speaker 1: was he was trying to leverage one against other. He was,
Speaker 1: but that was pretty clear, Um, And I guess the
Speaker 1: reason that it became such a big deal, as he
Speaker 1: said the quiet parts out loud, you know, as discussed
Speaker 1: Phil can't help himself and so if he had just
Speaker 1: towed the line and said, yeah, we're just trying to
Speaker 1: grow the game and it's a great vehicle for for
Speaker 1: young women in Saudi Arabia to learn sport. And like,
Speaker 1: all these guys go there and take the checks and
Speaker 1: they do that and everyone rolls their eyes and knows
Speaker 1: that's total bullshit. But um, it's like an established script
Speaker 1: that has been vetted by the public and get away
Speaker 1: with it. But that's not Phil, Like he's gonna tell
Speaker 1: you what he thinks. And um, they are ski motherfucker's like,
Speaker 1: and you know, Saudi Arabia has made over church the
Speaker 1: fire Pit Collective about doing content over there, and we
Speaker 1: said no, like, we don't want to be involved with them. Um,
Speaker 1: so you have to make your own you have your
Speaker 1: own little moral compass, I guess. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: the intensity of the reaction was was a surprise to me.
Speaker 1: And um, I'm still I'm still somewhat baffled because you know,
Speaker 1: the whole pg A bunch of PGA tour stars were
Speaker 1: over there in February collecting their checks and um, but
Speaker 1: I think Phil was so callous in the way he
Speaker 1: dismissed the atrocities of Saudi Arabia. And it was also this,
Speaker 1: you know, the sneakiness of to be you know, helping
Speaker 1: this rival league to get set up working against your
Speaker 1: own home tour. It was the combination that was the
Speaker 1: one to punch and um. But yeah, it's it's been
Speaker 1: it's been quite you know, basically a three months since
Speaker 1: since that strup dropped, you know, leading up until now.
Speaker 1: And I mean it's taking a toll on me for
Speaker 1: sure because as a reporter, you never were want to
Speaker 1: be in the middle of the story. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: this happened to you with Michelle we way back when
Speaker 1: Michael like um, when you know, she took a bad
Speaker 1: drop and then you you got you became part of
Speaker 1: that story as well. It's not a comfortable position to
Speaker 1: be in. But ultimately, you know, your obligation is to
Speaker 1: the story, to the reader, and to the truth. And
Speaker 1: so that's that's always been kind of the guiding light.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had players mad at me before about
Speaker 1: things and that that's part of the job. But you know,
Speaker 1: fulfill to miss the Masters and it's still up in
Speaker 1: the air if he's gonna be the PGA Championship, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's weird to have played some role
Speaker 1: in that, and it's not comfortable and it's not it's
Speaker 1: not something I relish, but it's you know, my obligation
Speaker 1: in this was to tell that the story completely and Phil.
Speaker 1: I had the goods from Phil, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a really important moment in professional golf and
Speaker 1: it remains so we don't know what Scott is all
Speaker 1: going to play out, but the biggest question was what
Speaker 1: does Phil want? Nobody really knew except for me, and
Speaker 1: so we could have left it buried in the book,
Speaker 1: you know, Bob Woodward style, and it's still no one
Speaker 1: would even know about all of this, but that just
Speaker 1: felt irresponsible, Like this was you know, as a as
Speaker 1: a reporter, you gotta gather information. You got disseminated, and
Speaker 1: I have the information and so um or nearly you
Speaker 1: would not drop an excerpt that that far in advance
Speaker 1: of publication. But it was just there was a key
Speaker 1: moment all this for Saudi Arabia and Phil and the
Speaker 1: PGA tour, and so it's it's led to this long
Speaker 1: run up where um, you know, it's I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: going back to your question. I'm happy for people to
Speaker 1: read the whole book because it will see as your
Speaker 1: kind words earlier, I think it's air and balanced, look
Speaker 1: at a complicated life, and you know we have the
Speaker 1: totality of a fil when when you when you strip
Speaker 1: that away and you just have you go right to
Speaker 1: the Saudi stuff. Um. You know, as you're reading the book,
Speaker 1: there's almost like this feeling of an inevitability, like something
Speaker 1: something bigs come in and you know it's in all
Speaker 1: the Savy steps in the last chapter. Um. And when
Speaker 1: you take away some of that context, and people who
Speaker 1: you don't maybe you know, I don't really know how
Speaker 1: you know, Phils clash with the institutions. You know, I
Speaker 1: get into all his stuff with the U. S g A.
Speaker 1: I get into his battles with the PGA tour like
Speaker 1: he's always been kind of a a rebel in his
Speaker 1: own little way, and this this is just the the
Speaker 1: culmination of you know, a decade or more of sort
Speaker 1: of of civil disobedience and as far as you know,
Speaker 1: as far as Field goes, so m but you know,
Speaker 1: the extrapt kind of lacked some of that context and
Speaker 1: so that I think that has given people, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe the feeling like this book is like the point
Speaker 1: us to takedown Phil and that thought, it's just a
Speaker 1: presented for who he is, and excuse me, who he
Speaker 1: is can is complicated. He can be manipulative, if he
Speaker 1: can be he can be uh, he can be greedy,
Speaker 1: he can be all those things. Now there's a whole
Speaker 1: other side to him that's presented. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: when when that story dropped people and didn't have that
Speaker 1: part of it, and so um, I'm just relieved that
Speaker 1: the whole book is going to be out there now
Speaker 1: and people can can see that the context of of
Speaker 1: of all that Saudi stuff and and really within a whole, big,
Speaker 1: complicated life. Do you think he's suspended from the PGA
Speaker 1: tour right now? Well, that's a matter of semantics. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, when when all that stuff was going down,
Speaker 1: someone very close to Phil texted me, now the pd
Speaker 1: toy wants to suspend him. Um, so did did he
Speaker 1: jump before he was pushed? You know? Is it? Is
Speaker 1: it a leave of absence of his own making? I'm
Speaker 1: you know sure, but if if you had, if if
Speaker 1: you had played in a different way than it probably
Speaker 1: would have been an official suspension. And how they leave
Speaker 1: it for various bureaucratic reasons. I don't even know officially
Speaker 1: what to call it, but clearly the tour was bringing
Speaker 1: the hammer down on him for you know, conduct unbecoming
Speaker 1: and uh so I would say it's a de fact
Speaker 1: of suspension, but whether it actually counts as one only
Speaker 1: Phil and Jay Monahan probably know that. But beyond conduct unbecoming,
Speaker 1: based on your own reporting, your own conversations with Phil
Speaker 1: and understanding of the PGA tour, what would really be
Speaker 1: the offense? And I'm asking this having my own theory,
Speaker 1: but I want to hear you discuss it. But I
Speaker 1: don't think people really understand this. And I think once
Speaker 1: you answer this question, if they're really listening, they will
Speaker 1: get another sense of it. What would really be the
Speaker 1: offense that would get Phil Mickelson suspended from the PHA tour?
Speaker 1: Right now? Yeah, I know it's very nuance gets you know,
Speaker 1: we're all so close to it. But if if you
Speaker 1: rock up to a like a municipal course and you
Speaker 1: get paired with some guys as I did about a
Speaker 1: month ago, and they're like, so, why is Phil suspended?
Speaker 1: What did he do wrong? It's hard to articulate it
Speaker 1: because he didn't break any laws. Now, he broke someone
Speaker 1: written rules, but we didn't break any laws. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know you were talking about his fall from grace.
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, you know, ray Lewis was out on
Speaker 1: the town and a dude got killed and he was
Speaker 1: right there when it happened. And he came back and
Speaker 1: won a Super Bowl and his his beloved TV commentator.
Speaker 1: And I mean, in the in the professional sports world,
Speaker 1: athletes have done horrible things and they've come back and
Speaker 1: almost skated on it. And you know, Phil's take taking
Speaker 1: this big reputational hit and he's been in this this
Speaker 1: exile and um, I mean there is language in the
Speaker 1: PGA tour by laws about, um, you can't bring the
Speaker 1: game into disrepute essentially, and I quote this from Tim
Speaker 1: Fincham and context of Phil's gambling, but I think you
Speaker 1: can also make the argument that he brought the game
Speaker 1: into disrepute. But um, there's also language to the effect that,
Speaker 1: you know, you can't have any actions detrimental to the
Speaker 1: business of the PGA tour. Um. Can can I interrupt
Speaker 1: for just one saying let's let's talk about that last
Speaker 1: clause that you just said, because even though it might
Speaker 1: sound bureaucratic and maybe even boring to tour your listener
Speaker 1: on a corporate sense, that is really a serious offense
Speaker 1: in others, Let's let's go let's go a little deeper
Speaker 1: on that. On that one sentence you said, what you
Speaker 1: really mean by and how it played out in real life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean Phil was clearly working against the business interests
Speaker 1: of the PGA tour, you know, by helping this establish
Speaker 1: this rival league and being a recruiter and you know,
Speaker 1: helping with the by laws and all of that, and
Speaker 1: that that could have a monumental impact on the tors
Speaker 1: ability to attract sponsors and to pay its players and
Speaker 1: charitable giving and so that that ultimately is the the
Speaker 1: crux of the matter. And you know, I was talking
Speaker 1: to um, a pg tour veteran who knows feel really well,
Speaker 1: and he was piste off and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: why is everyone so mad at Philly. He's like, because
Speaker 1: he tried to funk the tour and he tried to
Speaker 1: fuck us and that was it. And and later in
Speaker 1: that conversation, you know, getting into I said, you think
Speaker 1: people are gonna forgive him? I mean, Tiger objectively put
Speaker 1: his family and his fans through a lot worse, and
Speaker 1: he did break the law, you know, with his d
Speaker 1: U I and all that, and he's never been more beloved. Um.
Speaker 1: He said, Well, the difference is, you know, Tiger's always
Speaker 1: supported the tour and he's always supported us like he's
Speaker 1: like Tiger had more juice than Feels ever had, and
Speaker 1: he he could have probably started his own his own
Speaker 1: circuit and has his own tournaments, but he always was
Speaker 1: loyal to the PG Tour. And from the player's perspective,
Speaker 1: that's the betrayal. Um. You know, the fans that might
Speaker 1: be that might be too nuanced, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: that's why it was really interesting the silence that followed
Speaker 1: all these um, all these you know, uh revelations, was
Speaker 1: you didn't see any players defending Phil um and uh,
Speaker 1: they really kind of closed ranks because for them it
Speaker 1: was about the business and he was messing with their
Speaker 1: business and um in a way that Tiger never has
Speaker 1: or never would. And so they will forgive all of
Speaker 1: tigers trespasses because he's made them rich. But phil is
Speaker 1: trying to take money out of their pocket on some level,
Speaker 1: and so that that's the fundamental break from in the
Speaker 1: in the business of professional golf, because I probably got
Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen texts or d m s right after
Speaker 1: that stuff dropped from players or caddies or agents and
Speaker 1: they all said some version of thank you, like you
Speaker 1: did this all a great service by showing the world
Speaker 1: what what Phil has been up to. And I thought
Speaker 1: that was really interesting, Like not a single person was like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, was mad at me? They were They were
Speaker 1: actually um. There was a sense of Catharsis, like Okay,
Speaker 1: now all the cards are on the table and people
Speaker 1: really know what's happening and they can make up their
Speaker 1: own mind about it. So I thought that whole reaction
Speaker 1: was quite fascinating. Where do you think it goes from here? Alan? Uh?
Speaker 1: If you were Phil's advisor, Uh, what would you suggest
Speaker 1: that he due to regain his public life if that's
Speaker 1: what he wants. Yeah, I mean it's going to be
Speaker 1: very complicated if he fully embraces the Saudi Tour in
Speaker 1: a way that a lot of us think he's going to.
Speaker 1: I mean, if he goes all in and plays all
Speaker 1: eight events, um, after the things he said about them,
Speaker 1: and we all know his true feelings, it really does
Speaker 1: set them up as to be kind of this. This
Speaker 1: is a moral mercenary. Now every other player in the
Speaker 1: field it would be guilty of the same crimes. But
Speaker 1: you know, for fill to have taken such a strong
Speaker 1: stance and been so open about it, um, it's complex.
Speaker 1: I mean I would advise him, you renounce the Saudi's pledge,
Speaker 1: your fealty to the PGA Tour and say, you know, hey,
Speaker 1: I was just trying. I thought I was being a
Speaker 1: really kg businessman. I was trying to improve the whole
Speaker 1: dynamics professional golf that would benefit all the players. And
Speaker 1: the kind of part of the tragedy in this is
Speaker 1: he had some good points, and he was doing those
Speaker 1: things in a way that could have helped think the
Speaker 1: professional golfer as a group. Um. And we can all
Speaker 1: agree the PGA Tour needs competition and needs to rethink
Speaker 1: its model in a lot of ways, and Phil is
Speaker 1: helping to apply that pressure. Um. But um, I think
Speaker 1: he what he woefully underestimated was the emotion around Saudi Arabia,
Speaker 1: which did supply you know, fifteen of the nineteen nine
Speaker 1: eleven hijackers and did assassinate a Washington Post journalists who
Speaker 1: lives in the United States and among the many other
Speaker 1: atrocities that they've been a part of. And so, um,
Speaker 1: I think Phil just thought he was he was just
Speaker 1: it was negotiation, but he he didn't realize that it's
Speaker 1: it's much deeper than that for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And so if he goes all in with this outis
Speaker 1: that the image reclamation is going to be complex. But um,
Speaker 1: even so, I think if Phil comes back with a
Speaker 1: little bit of humility and he becomes a little more
Speaker 1: human in all of this, because he'd become such a
Speaker 1: cartoon character in the last few years through social media
Speaker 1: with all his preening and all the talk about his
Speaker 1: bombs and his calves, and it's also like he's having
Speaker 1: a midlife crisis and um, always missing was like the
Speaker 1: red sports car. And um, you know if I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, sports fans love a comeback, they love a
Speaker 1: redemption story. Phil does have thirty years of accruede, you know,
Speaker 1: goodwill he can draw upon for many many people in
Speaker 1: the game. Um, what he says and how he says
Speaker 1: it and what he does is it gonna be really important.
Speaker 1: And you know, I the people around him, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure they get that. I hope he's hired, like some
Speaker 1: outside advisors that can walk him through this reentry into
Speaker 1: public life. I think that would be really helpful. I
Speaker 1: mean because if his public statement he put out, you know,
Speaker 1: five days after the excerpt drop, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: this non apology apology, it was a total mess, and
Speaker 1: I mean it kind of it kind of read like
Speaker 1: a midnight Donald Trump tweet. You know, it's just all
Speaker 1: over the place. And it didn't quite you know, he
Speaker 1: was he has made himself a martyr, and it was
Speaker 1: it was that was not a good start. Now, obviously
Speaker 1: it was an emotional time. There's a lot going on,
Speaker 1: but it clearly read like he had written that himself, which, um,
Speaker 1: it's not a terrible thing. You wanted to be genuine
Speaker 1: from the heart. But he needs a little help and
Speaker 1: a little guidance and um so we'll see. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's going to be fascinating, Um how he's going to
Speaker 1: come back and and where and when? I mean, whether
Speaker 1: it's going to be the PGA, is going to be
Speaker 1: the first Saudi event in London, It's gonna be the
Speaker 1: U s open that follows you know, around the tree
Speaker 1: to gust that some people are saying, now he's gonna
Speaker 1: sit out the whole year because I don't think he's
Speaker 1: just worried about my book. He's about Billy Walter's book,
Speaker 1: which has coming probably the end of this year. And
Speaker 1: you know, I sent Philip copy of the book a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, like he's he has it in hand.
Speaker 1: I think he'll see that. Um, it's much more balanced
Speaker 1: than he might be fearing. And there are other revelations
Speaker 1: to come, but nothing that's gonna do the damage of
Speaker 1: the Saudi thing. And so, um, you know, I wish
Speaker 1: I could, I wish I had some insight into what
Speaker 1: he's gonna do. But um, I'm just on the sidelines
Speaker 1: like everybody else, just watching with with great uh anticipation
Speaker 1: and interest. What's your sense of what could be in
Speaker 1: the Billy Walters book. Well, people have kind of misunderstood
Speaker 1: that relationship where that they feel like, you know, Billy
Speaker 1: was Phil's bookie, but in fact that you know, they
Speaker 1: were partners and they would they would bet together, and
Speaker 1: I mean so Billy knows everything about that part of
Speaker 1: Phil's life. And they were also friends, and they play
Speaker 1: a lot of golf together, and they had a relationship
Speaker 1: that went beyond that and and so whether or not
Speaker 1: Phil could have saved Billy Walters in that insider trading case, Um,
Speaker 1: you know that that will never know that because he
Speaker 1: didn't testify. If Phil gotten up and testified that he
Speaker 1: never got insider information from Billy Walters, which they both
Speaker 1: have contended in their their statements to government. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: investigators and others that would have helped Billy, but would
Speaker 1: have would have saved them from going to prison, We
Speaker 1: don't know that. But in Billy's mind, you know, he
Speaker 1: Phil kind of sold them down the river. And so
Speaker 1: there's a there's a grievance there, and where I was
Speaker 1: trying to write a very balanced look at Phil Michelson.
Speaker 1: That's not Billy Walter's intention. Like he's got scores to settle,
Speaker 1: and um, so whatever he knows is is going to
Speaker 1: be in the book. And um, he knows a lot.
Speaker 1: So But on the other hand, you know, I detail
Speaker 1: some of the stuff in in my book. I mean,
Speaker 1: everyone knows if Phil likes to gamble. Um, I was
Speaker 1: able to. You know, one one piece of news that's
Speaker 1: in the book that's important is the scale of his losses.
Speaker 1: And as part of the insider trading case. You know,
Speaker 1: Phil was subject to this this government audit and um,
Speaker 1: you know I had a source who had direct access
Speaker 1: to these documents. And so there's a four year period
Speaker 1: they scrutinized from two thousand and ten to fourteen, and
Speaker 1: Phil claimed a total of forty million dollars and gambling
Speaker 1: losses in four years. That's a lot of money. Um,
Speaker 1: you know it was says, oh, Phil could afford it.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you do the math and back then
Speaker 1: Phil is making roughly, you know, low forties millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: Won't you pay your taxes and your agent and your
Speaker 1: caddy and you maintain this fabulous lifestyle, the jets and
Speaker 1: the mansions and the memberships and the private schools for
Speaker 1: your kids and you name it. You're not left as
Speaker 1: much as people think. And to lose ten million dollars
Speaker 1: um annually, and that's that's just what was reported. You know,
Speaker 1: we don't know what we don't know, like um, clearly, UM,
Speaker 1: there's been some substantial financial pressure from from the gambling
Speaker 1: losses and so and trying to understand why this this
Speaker 1: Saudi seduction is so appealing to fill I mean we
Speaker 1: know that he's he's had these grievances with the PGA
Speaker 1: tour and this was a chance to maybe reshape some
Speaker 1: of those dynamics. And he certainly is I think, enjoying
Speaker 1: sticking to the tour in that regard, but it could
Speaker 1: be more necessity than than people understand. And so I
Speaker 1: think my book will will shed some light on that stuff.
Speaker 1: I know it will. But you know, Billy Walters is
Speaker 1: gonna have more information, he's gonna have more numbers, and
Speaker 1: he's gonna have more stories. But how damaging that's going
Speaker 1: to be, you know unknown. But um, I think you know,
Speaker 1: after people read this, after they read my book, they'll
Speaker 1: understand that that there's the gambling was is a serious
Speaker 1: thing and Phil's life and um and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: how much Billy's book is gonna amplify that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it'll there'll be more detailed, but um, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's going to change the narrative that much. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's so that that there's just so much
Speaker 1: we don't know what calculations Fills making. And on the
Speaker 1: other hand, maybe it's as simple as he this this
Speaker 1: suspension slash leave of absence is gonna end, and he's
Speaker 1: gonna just come back and play golf because that's what
Speaker 1: he does. And um, the lack of transparency from the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour is problematic here. Uh you know whether the
Speaker 1: PGA of America would would honor such a such a
Speaker 1: directive from the PGA Tour, that's unknown. You know that
Speaker 1: that that's a long complicated relationship between those two organizations.
Speaker 1: So we have another nine days as we're recording this,
Speaker 1: until Phil has to commit to the PGA Championship, and
Speaker 1: he may take it down to the wire, but uh,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be it's gonna be quite something when he
Speaker 1: comes back and again fills these these these warring impulses
Speaker 1: to over explain and to to game the system versus
Speaker 1: can can he can he show some actual contrition and
Speaker 1: some reflection and and and maybe see where he might
Speaker 1: have gone down the wrong path? I mean, his his
Speaker 1: only public statements so far, it doesn't really offer a
Speaker 1: definitive answer to that. Let's talk about that sameing for
Speaker 1: a one minute, because something in it that was just
Speaker 1: personally upsetting to me was when he says, in a
Speaker 1: passive voice, there is the problem with off the record
Speaker 1: comments being used. I know you, Alan, you would never
Speaker 1: use off the record comments for publication. None of us would, uh,
Speaker 1: and you would. There would never be confusion about what's
Speaker 1: on the record and off the record in this context,
Speaker 1: because you would have to have a discussion, and you would.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be I want you to tell us,
Speaker 1: but but knowing you and knowing how I operate in
Speaker 1: these things, to really speak off the record about really
Speaker 1: sensitive matters, it has to be a two way street.
Speaker 1: There has to be there has to be an agreement.
Speaker 1: So for it's outrageous for him to use the one
Speaker 1: phrase that the public thinks they know off the record
Speaker 1: comments being used. So let's just talk about that for
Speaker 1: a moment, because I think people should know this about
Speaker 1: about you as a reporter and writer, and especially as
Speaker 1: they as they go into the book, and they want
Speaker 1: to know the value systems, of the value system of
Speaker 1: the person who has who has who has written the book.
Speaker 1: You're writing a biography, a sort of informal, casual, athletic
Speaker 1: personal biography of of Phil Michelson. You've tried repeatedly to
Speaker 1: get them um and you have it back and forth
Speaker 1: with them, and it's always maybe, no, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I think so, and you're getting
Speaker 1: from Phil and you're getting from his lawyer's plural and
Speaker 1: then the phone rings take us into that moment. Where
Speaker 1: were you, what was the setting and how did you
Speaker 1: handle it? Yeah, that was interesting. I was actually I
Speaker 1: was driving home from the Wishbone brawl down in Oceanside,
Speaker 1: California's on I five and I had three of my
Speaker 1: kids with me because they came down. It was just
Speaker 1: a weekend in San Diego to have some fun and Phil,
Speaker 1: you know, we'd had a text volley we said you
Speaker 1: want to talk. I kind of had an inkling when
Speaker 1: he was gonna call, but not really and um so
Speaker 1: I pulled over and had my my daughter Abbey drive
Speaker 1: so I could pay more attend. I sat in the
Speaker 1: backseat so I could really focus on on this interview.
Speaker 1: And um so just the setting was was unusual. But
Speaker 1: you know, you can't control when someone's gonna call you, really,
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna try and reschedule it for the
Speaker 1: next day, when when when you get him, you get them. So,
Speaker 1: um yeah, you know we we have this correspondence and
Speaker 1: you know it was preceded by his lawyer. Um basically
Speaker 1: making me a job offer to help Phil take on
Speaker 1: the tour in their in their media rights, and so
Speaker 1: but Lorie and I have these discussions about and of
Speaker 1: course I said, I can't do that. I can't take
Speaker 1: you know, Phil's money while I'm writing a book about
Speaker 1: it. It It made no sense like that that was so
Speaker 1: quizzical to begin with, but quizzical slash manipulative very much so,
Speaker 1: very much so. And that I mean that that's what's
Speaker 1: important understand is Phil never opens his mouth without an agenda.
Speaker 1: And you know, same as the same as lawyer, they're
Speaker 1: they're always working an angle, and same with his agent
Speaker 1: Steve Loy, Like you know, there's there's a sense that
Speaker 1: they're always trying to play you in one way or another,
Speaker 1: and there's a back and forth and there's a there's
Speaker 1: a banter, and there's a repartee, and it's you're always
Speaker 1: like jousting with them. And that that was a that
Speaker 1: was a feature of this book, I mean. And as
Speaker 1: you were saying, like I had so many people came
Speaker 1: to me who wanted to to uh talk about different
Speaker 1: parts of Phil's life. Many of them wanted to speak
Speaker 1: off the record or or I could use the material,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't use their name. And I had these
Speaker 1: ornate agreements with so many different people about how the
Speaker 1: interview would be conducted. What were the terms? You know,
Speaker 1: there was this high roller and Phil's orbit who wanted
Speaker 1: to speak to me. I went to go see him.
Speaker 1: Not only could I not bring my phone, I couldn't
Speaker 1: even take notes, like he wanted no trace that we'd
Speaker 1: ever spoken. You know, it was like Coak and Dagger stuff.
Speaker 1: So with all these people, you know, they would set
Speaker 1: the terms and I would I would push back or
Speaker 1: i'd i'd accept them where I would decline because it
Speaker 1: didn't feel right, like whatever it was. So I've been
Speaker 1: doing this for over a year, and you know, Phil
Speaker 1: text me says he wants to talk. Great, he calls
Speaker 1: me up and he just starts talking. And in the
Speaker 1: context of me having asked him repeatedly to speak for
Speaker 1: the book, I mean, definitely, anything he tells him me
Speaker 1: is going straight into the book unless he and I
Speaker 1: agree otherwise. I mean, that's that's to me. Is is
Speaker 1: so basic. And but he never set any ground rules.
Speaker 1: He never said he wanted to go off the record.
Speaker 1: He never said this is just between me and you.
Speaker 1: Or any of those other euphemisms, like he just opened
Speaker 1: a vein and told me everything. So um, I was
Speaker 1: surprised in the moment by his candor. And you know
Speaker 1: some people have said, well, look at his language. You know,
Speaker 1: he went he wouldn't speak like that to report, but
Speaker 1: Phil is like super profane in private. And even you know,
Speaker 1: Steve Stricker talked about this at the Ryder Cup because
Speaker 1: you know, they were on their little earpieces talking. He's like,
Speaker 1: anything that Phil said this whole week I can't say
Speaker 1: out loud because you know, he's got this buttoned up
Speaker 1: image and I think sometimes he just has to let
Speaker 1: it go. And so I've had other interactions with him
Speaker 1: like that, where um, you know, it's it's not quite
Speaker 1: the what he presents to the public. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was remarkable, but I really it felt
Speaker 1: like he was unburning himself. You know. Uh. He did
Speaker 1: ask when the book was coming out, and I said,
Speaker 1: I told him it was gonna be in May, and
Speaker 1: it was pretty clear that point the Saudi stuff was
Speaker 1: going to be done and dusted and announced, and so
Speaker 1: you know, my analysis is that he wanted his his
Speaker 1: true feelings to be known and he wanted he wanted.
Speaker 1: It was a tip to you know, a little nod
Speaker 1: to American sports fans, like, I know these are bad guys,
Speaker 1: but this is just strictly business, and it's just a negotiation.
Speaker 1: I'm trying. I'm trying to get what I need and
Speaker 1: what I want, and I'm trying to help the other
Speaker 1: people out. And um, you know, if it could have
Speaker 1: gone either way for Phil, right, like if if you,
Speaker 1: if you, if you went all in with the Saudis
Speaker 1: and there was this public outcry, then these comments would
Speaker 1: have been him saying, I get it, I understand, but listening,
Speaker 1: you gotta do what you gotta do. And if if
Speaker 1: he had stayed with the PGA tour, which could have
Speaker 1: been looked like a political defeat at least, then he
Speaker 1: would have told me, like all the concessions he got
Speaker 1: and all the battles of Monahan, and so he was
Speaker 1: kind of working both sides of the street, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think that was ultimately his motivation. Um. It's interesting though,
Speaker 1: because enough people have asked me this, I've had to
Speaker 1: reflect on it. Like they're like, do you think Phil
Speaker 1: was drunk when he called you? And you know, it
Speaker 1: was a Sunday afternoon during football season. He sounded perfectly normal,
Speaker 1: and he sounded as as himself. I couldn't speak to that.
Speaker 1: I didn't breathalyze him. But it's like he wasn't drunk.
Speaker 1: I don't think he was drunk. I think he's he's
Speaker 1: a very He's not that kind of drink. He's not
Speaker 1: that kind of drink or anyhow. No, he's not. He's
Speaker 1: more of like a red wine with dinner kind of guy.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't take that seriously. I just think
Speaker 1: there was an element of him being uninhibited that was
Speaker 1: thrilling for him. And you know, he in this public
Speaker 1: statement he said it was reckless. You know, my my
Speaker 1: comments were reckless. I think that's kind of the point.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, we know fills an adrenaline junkie, and
Speaker 1: he could have told any reporter in the world his
Speaker 1: real feelings about the Staudies. Why did he call me,
Speaker 1: the one guy who was writing his biography, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't bug his office. He called me to tell
Speaker 1: me this stuff because he wanted me to know it,
Speaker 1: and he did the math. He did the math. Well,
Speaker 1: the book's not coming out un till May. The Live
Speaker 1: golf thing will be off and running by that point anyhow.
Speaker 1: Uh so he knew exactly what what he was doing.
Speaker 1: It's wild though, it really is, and it's me would
Speaker 1: play out but go ahead, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. He
Speaker 1: definitely underestimated the blowback. And you know, the the excerpt
Speaker 1: came out when it did for the reasons we already
Speaker 1: discussed so um, but I think ultimately he just didn't
Speaker 1: understand the emotion surrounding this issue and that that was
Speaker 1: that was you know, Phil thought he again he was
Speaker 1: being the smartest guy in the room, but he didn't
Speaker 1: quite recognize how people really feel about Saudi Arabia. And
Speaker 1: so it's a it's a fascinating chapter. And you know,
Speaker 1: we're we talking about this whenever he comes back. I mean,
Speaker 1: how he how he game plans his return of public
Speaker 1: life is gonna be fascinating. Hopefully it's it in southern
Speaker 1: Hills that would be fun. So uh, keeping in, let's
Speaker 1: end here with a wrap. Let's wrap things up here
Speaker 1: with with the lightning round of of quick questions from
Speaker 1: me um and as you think about him, uh, and
Speaker 1: I hardly need to say this to you, but people
Speaker 1: do reinvent their lives all the time. We've seen it
Speaker 1: with a Rod. It's amazing what he's done after the
Speaker 1: scandals he's been through. We saw with with Bill Clinton,
Speaker 1: We've seen it with Tiger Woods. But then we see
Speaker 1: people who you never hear from again, like Barry Bonds
Speaker 1: and various others. So with with all that in mind, uh,
Speaker 1: Phil Mickelson was a luck, an absolute lot to be
Speaker 1: a writer, Cup Captain. Uh do you see him ever
Speaker 1: becoming a writer? Cup Captain? Yes, definitely. I think this
Speaker 1: is gonna be a blip in the in the larger
Speaker 1: legacy of Phil Michelson. And it's it's a couple of
Speaker 1: sentences in in a three page Wikipedia like you know,
Speaker 1: there's a recency bias and because he's been away and
Speaker 1: we have to fill this vacuum. But he's gonna be
Speaker 1: He's gonna be a writer, Cup Captain. I think he'll
Speaker 1: be in the eighteenth Tower of CBS if that's what
Speaker 1: he wants. I mean, he'll come back and he'll people
Speaker 1: be reminded of why they like him, and um, he'll
Speaker 1: survive this. He survived myriad controversies. I think this is
Speaker 1: just gonna be another one. He went a p h
Speaker 1: A championship at age fifty? Do you see him contending
Speaker 1: in future majors? Could you could you see him winning
Speaker 1: a major? And episode which one? Yeah? I mean Phil's dangerous.
Speaker 1: He still has club head speed, which he wants to
Speaker 1: tell you all about, and he still has magical hands,
Speaker 1: and he has the know how and he's not afraid. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, those those are those are quite a suppotent combination.
Speaker 1: And so I can see him at at the right
Speaker 1: Open Championship set up being dangerous. No one plays AUGUSTA
Speaker 1: National better. Uh, you know, I feel like those are
Speaker 1: going to be his two best chances. But no one
Speaker 1: would have ever guessed he would have won on the
Speaker 1: ocean course, which is booby trapped with all kinds of horrors,
Speaker 1: and he navigated that so skillfully. So any time he
Speaker 1: tease it up, he's a threat. He's not going to
Speaker 1: be a week end week out force, but he's definitely dangerous.
Speaker 1: And you know, just as Tiger needed another mountain to
Speaker 1: climb and the most recent car accident gave it to him,
Speaker 1: Phil now for the first time in his life, is
Speaker 1: mounting a comeback. You know, he's never had any injuries. Um,
Speaker 1: he's never been away from golf like this, so he
Speaker 1: may come back hungrier and more rejuvenated than he's ever been.
Speaker 1: So yes, I feel still dangerous. Uh fil in the future,
Speaker 1: does he make more money on the golf course or
Speaker 1: from the coffee business. Well, I talked to a guy
Speaker 1: it's not in a book, but who is a venture
Speaker 1: capitalist who said, I think I think, you know, for
Speaker 1: Wellness could be a billion dollar company. Um, And so, uh,
Speaker 1: I haven't tried it. You know, I'm loyal to good
Speaker 1: Walk Coffee, as we discussed, but I'm sure you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's so much in that that's gone into making
Speaker 1: this as a as a healthful product, and we all
Speaker 1: know that's that's all the raids And um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I think I'm not sure how much is gonna
Speaker 1: make on on the golf course. Now, he's got a
Speaker 1: lot of endorsements he needs to reconstitute. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Phil comes back
Speaker 1: and has draft kings on his hat, like this may
Speaker 1: be what he needed just to be like you know what,
Speaker 1: I just want to be who I am and I've
Speaker 1: just I've kind of been playing this role for a
Speaker 1: long time, and I'm tired of playing this role and
Speaker 1: this is this is a chance to reset and be me,
Speaker 1: Like maybe they'll go all in on on on, you know,
Speaker 1: and and kind of tweak his public persona. And he's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a hell raiser and it it's
Speaker 1: it's been well disguised, but it leaks out here and there,
Speaker 1: and maybe he's maybe this is set him free in
Speaker 1: some ways. But um yeah, if if for Wellness becomes
Speaker 1: a billion dollar company, then I like his chances to
Speaker 1: catch that in more than he's on the golf course.
Speaker 1: That's a really good insight on because we've seen in
Speaker 1: recent years Phil had Phils go to fallback position. Life
Speaker 1: was oh shucks, oh shucks, mohucks, and then he became
Speaker 1: badass Phill with the aviators and this leak body and
Speaker 1: the tight shirts and all the rest. Uh, So he's
Speaker 1: been moving this direction of this is the real me.
Speaker 1: I'm a sex figure, I'm Phil. It's a little hard
Speaker 1: to take seriously, but he takes it seriously, so so
Speaker 1: it does better. Okay, last thing for you, You're gonna
Speaker 1: have a coffee get together. Of course, each of you
Speaker 1: is gonna bring your own coffee. He's gonna bring his,
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring yours. Uh, what would you want to
Speaker 1: say to fill directly banded man face to person person
Speaker 1: face to face. That's a great question. I would say, Listen,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you've been through all this, and I have
Speaker 1: empathy for you and I'm not dancing on your grave.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a challenging time for me
Speaker 1: to to see this all play out the way it has. Like, UM,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't have regrets in the reporting, Like
Speaker 1: my job is to tell the truth in this book,
Speaker 1: and I think I did, and um, you know, Phil
Speaker 1: kind of created his own reality, but um, I honestly
Speaker 1: did not think it was gonna send him into exile,
Speaker 1: and it would it would turn his life upside down,
Speaker 1: and UM, I would tell him, like, you know, I
Speaker 1: have I have. I still this book was written with affection,
Speaker 1: and I still have those feelings for Phil, even though
Speaker 1: he impugned my professionalism and all that, Like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's amotion there and I'm not out to get him.
Speaker 1: That's never the point of this book. And I hope
Speaker 1: he can read it with an open mind and and
Speaker 1: see that it was written with UM you know, basically
Speaker 1: written with a smile, because I've always enjoyed writing about Phil.
Speaker 1: I think he's a super fun character. He's made our
Speaker 1: professional life so much more fun. Um. And I have
Speaker 1: no negative feelings towards a guy. But um, he may
Speaker 1: you know, that may be hard for him to believe,
Speaker 1: but that that's from the heart. I would say, you
Speaker 1: have a lot of positive feelings about him. I mean,
Speaker 1: yet that's been true. Anybody who's listening to this conversation
Speaker 1: with having would would know that. And I don't think
Speaker 1: you just knowing you, I don't think you if you're
Speaker 1: feelings are only negative about him, you would never want
Speaker 1: to write this book in the first place. It's the
Speaker 1: it's the range of his personality that drew that draws
Speaker 1: you to him in the first place. That's true. I mean,
Speaker 1: to write a book about one human being, is it?
Speaker 1: Is it? You have to spend so much time with
Speaker 1: that person in your brain. And if I really thought
Speaker 1: Phil was just a dick and all these other things, um,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gone down that road. But he's a
Speaker 1: fun character and it was fun to write about him,
Speaker 1: and I had a great time in the typing. And
Speaker 1: I mean literally, I'd be at my desk eleven o'clock
Speaker 1: at night when of my kids were coming for a
Speaker 1: snack and I'd be like laughing. I'm like, what are
Speaker 1: you laughing about? Is that this story is a ridiculous
Speaker 1: listen to this not reading this thing? Like whatever, Dad?
Speaker 1: You know, they don't they don't care. But um, you
Speaker 1: know some of the tales about Phil are so hysterical
Speaker 1: and um. So yeah. That That's what I hope you
Speaker 1: will take away from this book is that it's just
Speaker 1: a fun read. Um, There's there's some serious moments, there's
Speaker 1: there's a there's a little bit of a dark side
Speaker 1: to feel that is captured, but there's also a lot
Speaker 1: of light there and um, and so that that was
Speaker 1: was the challenge, was to capture all that. And you know,
Speaker 1: between the two covers of a book, I think for
Speaker 1: you and Phil, I think this copy get together. It
Speaker 1: could be the start of a continued beautiful relationship. Phil.
Speaker 1: Phil being Phil and Alan being Alan is a very
Speaker 1: powerful combination. I'm gonna leave it to you from here,
Speaker 1: all right. Well, thanks for all the thoughtful questions, Michael.
Speaker 1: That was fun, and I will I will before we
Speaker 1: sign off, I'll just tell our listeners if from Southern Hills,
Speaker 1: Michael and I will be podcasting a lot, So if
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this conversation, we're just gonna keep keep our
Speaker 1: conversations going in perpetuity here so you can listen to
Speaker 1: the Fire Drill podcast and we'll be bringing all kinds
Speaker 1: of things to life from from Southern Hills. Of course,
Speaker 1: you know, Michael and I will also be writing daily
Speaker 1: for fire Pit Collective dot com and who knows what
Speaker 1: other surprises are in store. So thanks for listening, um,
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can do this again soon. So thanks
Speaker 1: for your time. Mike, thank you. Put another log on
Speaker 1: the fire and we hear is getting time