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Speaker 1: If you really want to have some understanding of the

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Speaker 1: struggles of modern golf and the struggles of being Phil Mickelson,

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Speaker 1: you really have to read this book. Put another log

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Speaker 1: on the fire nobody hears get the time. Hello, this

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Speaker 1: is Alan Schipnak. Welcome back to the fire Drill Podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is a new little platform for us here at

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Speaker 1: the Collective that we're using to cover breaking news and

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Speaker 1: we'll blow it out for event coverage, especially the major championships.

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Speaker 1: And we have some breaking news today. UM, it's a

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Speaker 1: big one for us here at the fire Pit Collective.

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Speaker 1: The dean of the Golf Beat, the greatest living golf writer,

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Speaker 1: a hero to many of us, Michael Bamberger, as of today,

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Speaker 1: is a full time staffer with the FPC. UM For

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Speaker 1: a scrappy little startup company like ourselves, it means a

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Speaker 1: ton and we're extremely excited to um blow out all

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Speaker 1: of Michael's many talents as as it happens, he's here

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Speaker 1: on the line right now, Michael, Thanks for joining us

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Speaker 1: in more ways than one. Alan couldn't be happier. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. I've got my own FPC microphone now,

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Speaker 1: so I really feel like I'm in the club. I

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Speaker 1: know a year or ten years or twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: you would never expected that I would be someone who

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Speaker 1: would have my own microphone. And yet here I am

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Speaker 1: so thank you for that, Alan, thank you for all

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Speaker 1: your encouragement to uh to get me here, and I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 1: So what was your first byeline back in Martha's Vineyard?

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Speaker 1: Did you remember the first story you ever had up

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Speaker 1: here in print? Oh? Yeah, it would go yeah, it

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Speaker 1: would go back to the uh mid seventies. Really, uh,

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Speaker 1: writing for my for my local paper, covering the golf

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Speaker 1: team that I played for for our local paper, you know,

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Speaker 1: writing about yourself in the third person, Mike Barnberger shot

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Speaker 1: a fine forty seven something like that, And uh, it

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Speaker 1: hasn't really advanced very much since then. I'm I'm referring

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Speaker 1: to my golf game. Well that maybe my writing as well. Well.

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Speaker 1: One of my first really, my first gig was uh

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Speaker 1: for the Sealinas, Californian when I was a stringer for

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Speaker 1: high school sports, and um, you know I did. I

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Speaker 1: played basketball and I ran track, but I would cover

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Speaker 1: the football games that my friends were part of at

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Speaker 1: Selia's High and I'd always have inside jokes in the newspaper,

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Speaker 1: and I would always drop their names for no apparent reasons,

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Speaker 1: so it's analogous. But uh no, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: for a man, it's well, I don't want to I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say your advanced age. But for someone

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Speaker 1: who's you know, on the back nine of their career

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Speaker 1: to uh, it's awesome that you're you're taking the plunge here,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, at our the last year, I

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Speaker 1: felt a little weird because we've been on the same

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Speaker 1: masthead since the mid nineties that Sports Illustrated, and then

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Speaker 1: when I left, when I left Golf Magazine, there was

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Speaker 1: almost exactly, you know, twelve months that we were We

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Speaker 1: were not colleagues. We still had our meals and our

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Speaker 1: rounds of golf. But uh, you know, why don't you

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Speaker 1: tell the listeners about a few of our misadventures in podcasting?

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Speaker 1: Like everyone remembers the waffle House of Washington Road with

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Speaker 1: the manager bitching at us and Hotel California in the background,

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Speaker 1: But where are some other places that we've done some

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Speaker 1: unusual podcasts. It's really weird what resonates with people. But

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Speaker 1: I have heard about that waffle house session, uh, numerous times.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it's our equivalent of Cheryl

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Speaker 1: Crowe and her Tuesday night sessions. You know, which which

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Speaker 1: UH would which have a certain family. And yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: as you and I have said many times, alanah side

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Speaker 1: aside him, you know, maybe him and a few him

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Speaker 1: ideas and a few others, there aren't that many people

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Speaker 1: in this world who really understand each other's lives and

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Speaker 1: the uh you know, the weird difficulties and joys of

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Speaker 1: them both. And you know, just thinking about your warm

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Speaker 1: welcome there for a minute, but I often think about

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Speaker 1: UH six the US Open. UH was at Shannakaka. Grew

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Speaker 1: up in Patrick, which is about thirty miles away along

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Speaker 1: Suffing County, Long Island, and I sat behind a columnist

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Speaker 1: for Newsday named Joe gurg And I know you've got

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Speaker 1: people like this in your own mind. And Joe Geron

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Speaker 1: was on deadline riding up Brave Floyd's when sitting with

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Speaker 1: colleagues and having the time of his life. And you

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Speaker 1: and I've had that experience many many times. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I remember just last year at the Ryder Cup. Alan,

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Speaker 1: tell me if you remember this, you may not, because

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Speaker 1: we've had discussions like this probably literally a thousand times.

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Speaker 1: But you and I were sitting next to each other

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Speaker 1: at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits and uh, and

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Speaker 1: we're sitting there, we're you know, we got our notes

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Speaker 1: and we got our laptop and we got our fingers,

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Speaker 1: and I just said, it's just a weird, fulfilling, great

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Speaker 1: thing to have this idea in your head and you're

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Speaker 1: going to transmute it if that's a word from your

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Speaker 1: brain to your fingers, into the laptop and then out

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Speaker 1: into the world. And you know, to me, it was

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Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, our Watson nucleus moment of like,

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Speaker 1: and you were like, you didn't say these words, but

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Speaker 1: this is what it was. This is what you were saying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what it's all about. Just like Big Jack said

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Speaker 1: to Tom that day. Do you remember that moment at all?

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Speaker 1: I do, Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, the the adrenaline

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Speaker 1: of of writing on deadline. It's still the most powerful

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Speaker 1: drug guy I've tried, and I've tried a few lately,

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Speaker 1: but Southern California living, I mean a lot. Every morning

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Speaker 1: Karmel was micro dosing mushrooms like you might as well.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's uh, it's just the energy of it.

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Speaker 1: And it's more pronounced now with you know, we used

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Speaker 1: to back when we're just writing for Sports Illustrated magazine

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Speaker 1: as are called grick Lips used to call it UH.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have all night. We have sort of

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Speaker 1: had the luxury of time, and that was our biggest advantage.

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Speaker 1: And everyone else had to file their stories right away

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Speaker 1: for their newspaper and we didn't. We have until the

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Speaker 1: next morning, and so you could really ruminate, and you

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Speaker 1: could spend all night. And I watched the sunrise plenty

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Speaker 1: of times from from press rooms and hotel rooms. But

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Speaker 1: you know, now we're writing for UH, for the internet

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Speaker 1: and and speed kills. I mean, if you take two

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Speaker 1: extra hours to make your story better, you might miss

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Speaker 1: the whole readership that one's gone to bed so um

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Speaker 1: so trying to capture the moment and do it quickly.

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Speaker 1: And and that went in the rooms doing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we all have egos. We want our

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Speaker 1: story to be the best. And it's really it's hard

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Speaker 1: to replicate that feeling. And I'm not going to suggest

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Speaker 1: it's the exact same thing that a golfer feels on

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Speaker 1: the back nine when they're trying to win a big tournament.

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Speaker 1: But it's our version of it, and it is addictive

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Speaker 1: and it's fun. Yeah, it's see how you and I

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Speaker 1: will compare notes and we often see things in a

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Speaker 1: similar away or we're drawn to something similar in our reporting.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this, you know, we show up at

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Speaker 1: the same odd spot, just uh, just the two of us,

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Speaker 1: and then to read our stories afterwards, and like the

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Speaker 1: way we write it up is so totally different and

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Speaker 1: sometimes not sometimes very similar. But but no, no, just no,

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Speaker 1: just different, just different, just different takes of different emphases. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that's fine. Uh, you know right now, for some reason,

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Speaker 1: my mind's going, and I know we bring this up

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Speaker 1: from time to time. We wrote on uh, the US

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Speaker 1: Open at Pebble Beach, what year word have that been?

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Speaker 1: Two thousand nineteen, Allen when when Woodland won? And uh,

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Speaker 1: and we were we both wrote and they were in

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Speaker 1: deadline and then we're in that tavern room at the

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Speaker 1: tavern is what they call alan the tavernet and in

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Speaker 1: the Pebble Beach club House room the tap the tavern. Uh.

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Speaker 1: For some reason, I'm just thinking right now about after

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Speaker 1: Gary Woodland won the US Open a Pebble Beach two

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Speaker 1: thousand nineteen. We both we both wrote on Deadline and

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Speaker 1: you're a little wired and but also looking to relaxed

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And we went to the tap room

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Speaker 1: um in the in the Pebble Beach Lodge and it

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Speaker 1: was packed and we knew a lot of people, and

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Speaker 1: Jordan's Speed came over and just started chatting us up.

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Speaker 1: And Uh, just a million moments like that that we've

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Speaker 1: had together that are just fun and make you feel

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Speaker 1: like part of the fabric of the game. Uh and Uh, Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I look forward to doing a lot more of that

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Speaker 1: in the future. Well, you're bearing the lead. We went

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Speaker 1: to the tap room because we were going to record

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Speaker 1: our podcast We're looking a place with a guns, but

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Speaker 1: it was closed to the public. You have to be

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Speaker 1: you haved be staying at the lodge. But because you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been around Pebble Beach forever, we sneaked in. But

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Speaker 1: there were so many players there, justin Thomas and remember

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Speaker 1: Thomas and speak wood Eventually, yeah, there was a big

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Speaker 1: table that was saved. It became obviously it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: for Woodland, and uh, we kind of detected the vibe

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Speaker 1: wasn't right to put out these giant microphones and podcasts

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Speaker 1: that we just enjoyed the whole scene. But um yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there was an Italian restaurant in St. Louis

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Speaker 1: after the Bell Reeve p GA we were recording a

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Speaker 1: pod and they're like sweeping under our feet, like trying

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Speaker 1: to close up on Sunday night. And I remember we

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Speaker 1: found a weird little nook in the clubhouse at Aaron Hills,

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Speaker 1: Like that's one of the fun things is to find

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Speaker 1: these places that have ambiance and a sense of place.

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Speaker 1: And um yeah, mean that's definitely for for those who

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Speaker 1: are listening. That's one of the one of our goals here.

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Speaker 1: Mike and I are going to podcast a lot um

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Speaker 1: when in Tulsa, we'll probably do daily podcasts from the

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Speaker 1: PG Championship, just recapping the acction. We're gonna try and

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Speaker 1: bring in some other voices, whether it's Jeff Ogilvie or whomever.

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Speaker 1: And um, you know, we all love your typing, Michael,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's going to remain the foundation of your

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Speaker 1: professional life. But at your old shop, you're kind of

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Speaker 1: an underutilized asset as far as podcasts and video storytelling.

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Speaker 1: And even social media, which we know we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: get a Twitter, but I'm kind of I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: scooping myself here, but I'm gonna a wash of bamberger

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Speaker 1: Um account that probably I'm going to maintain. This will

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Speaker 1: help us some other FPC staffers and um, just you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it should be a big moment anytime you drop

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Speaker 1: a story like we we got to get it out

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Speaker 1: into the world. So we're looking forward to, uh to

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Speaker 1: promoting and just getting in front of readers, most of

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Speaker 1: them already are familiar. But um, you know, if there

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Speaker 1: there's been a little lag and in in promotion of you,

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Speaker 1: of your material, so that that's an institutional priority here.

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Speaker 1: And I know you hate to hear that, but it's true. No,

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Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what does trigger you know, when

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Speaker 1: when there was some talk about me joining Fire Pick

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Speaker 1: Collective and I was, you know, definitely intrigued from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and there was a little bit of sense like uh oh,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you know, we'll want you to podcast

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Speaker 1: and maybe do some some videos as well, and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe you know I might be resistant of that, And

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Speaker 1: I truly feel the opposite. I feel like we're in

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Speaker 1: a period now where you want to reach people where

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Speaker 1: they are. And you know, to use Matt's phrase, Mattel's phrase, Uh,

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Speaker 1: our colleague, both n s I and now again, you

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Speaker 1: know what does you say, uh, read, listen, watch. I

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Speaker 1: don't know I have the order correct, but I totally

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Speaker 1: believe that reach people where they are. We have something

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Speaker 1: we want to convey. It's storytelling in different forms, and

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Speaker 1: it's all good. And you see the New Yorker has

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Speaker 1: embraced that spectacular early. And and I'm very devoted to

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Speaker 1: New Yorker and I do I read, I watched, and

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Speaker 1: I listen. Uh. And so we're gonna we're gonna do

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Speaker 1: the same thing. And I and I and I welcome it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting. I mean, it's a big investment for

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Speaker 1: you or I to fly off and do a story

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Speaker 1: for just to type it up. But it's a slightly

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Speaker 1: larger investment. But if you bring a if you bring

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Speaker 1: a video crew and you bring your podcasts gear, uh,

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Speaker 1: it amplifies it and it gets people excited about it.

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Speaker 1: Not even's gonna read the story, but someone watch the video.

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Speaker 1: So I gonna listen to the podcast, and it's just Um.

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Speaker 1: You know Sports Illustrated with slow to embrace that. Golf

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Speaker 1: Magazine was slow to embrace that. But that's really kind

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Speaker 1: of the foundation of what we want to do here

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Speaker 1: is just reach people in a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 1: And so it's gonna be fun to um, you know,

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Speaker 1: to blow it to blow it out with you, Michael,

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Speaker 1: because the reason you're so good on camera is because

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Speaker 1: you don't try at all. And I mean that as

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Speaker 1: a compliment. You know, the rest of us try too hard,

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Speaker 1: but you literally don't care, and so it comes across

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Speaker 1: as genuine and real in a way that can't be faked.

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Speaker 1: So it's gonna be it's gonna be fun to do

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Speaker 1: more of that stuff. Good, thank you. Yeah. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess this would be a good time to um

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Speaker 1: to pay some bills. So I'm gonna think a couple

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Speaker 1: of our corporate sponsors will help us keep the lights

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Speaker 1: on at the fire Pit Collective. One is a good

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Speaker 1: Walk Coffee. I think they were the first company that

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Speaker 1: actually advertised with us, going back almost a full year

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Speaker 1: when when we just launched this thing. As you know, Michael,

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Speaker 1: I've always been a hot chocolate guy, but I've lately

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Speaker 1: tried to become an adult and drink coffee, and the

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Speaker 1: good Walk coffee is freaking good. So I would encourage

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Speaker 1: people out there to check it out. And uh, if

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Speaker 1: you use a fire pit code, you'll get a nice

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Speaker 1: little discount. And then that's also par points golf, which

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Speaker 1: is another great supporter what we try and do. And

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Speaker 1: we got to test this out together, Michael, I think

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Speaker 1: you'll actually enjoy is this new scoring system for golf.

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Speaker 1: It's not based on strokes, it's based on points, and

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Speaker 1: you can't you create your own golf course. It's pegged

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Speaker 1: to the yardage of the whole, so you can play

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Speaker 1: any t you want. You can even drop a ball

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the fairway. The closer you are,

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Speaker 1: the few of the points you get. But it also

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Speaker 1: becomes strategy. If you're playing against a long hitter, can

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Speaker 1: they carry the hazard but you can't. You can you

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Speaker 1: can start your hold in front of the hazard. And

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Speaker 1: it's great for beginners and kids who are kind of

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Speaker 1: I think live in fear of the dreaded like triple

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Speaker 1: Bogey and um and also for kids like every video

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Speaker 1: game they play, whatever they do, the point is to

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Speaker 1: is to get as many points as possible, and golf

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Speaker 1: has tried to take the fewest strokes and I think

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Speaker 1: for for for kids, it's kind of like cognitive dissonance.

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Speaker 1: They want the points. So anyway, thank thanks to uh,

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Speaker 1: thanks to those folks for what they do. Because journalism

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Speaker 1: is is expensive. Then um where we're you're trying to

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Speaker 1: keep this whole thing going. So I look forward to

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Speaker 1: learning more about both those uh things that you just mentioned. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I'm a black coffee drinker and I haven't tried a

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Speaker 1: good walk coffee yet. But but I'm but I'm eager

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Speaker 1: to Uh our son who's a tremendous coffee snob, speaks

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Speaker 1: of flavor notes and coffee, so I'll be busy. I'll

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Speaker 1: be here to have him and tried it in baron

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Speaker 1: Burger and tell uh, tell me what flavor notes I

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Speaker 1: should be talking about. Um, but and and and as

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Speaker 1: for the what's the other group called part points? Well,

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Speaker 1: part points, you know, I'm not familiar with that. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna read up on that. That's very interesting, but uh,

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Speaker 1: I have for years UH when playing with like minded

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Speaker 1: UH golfers. I'm surprised you and I haven't done more

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Speaker 1: of this. And maybe we've done some of it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: winner calls the t So whoever has the honor choose

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Speaker 1: where you're gonna tee off from. And you could, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can take a foreigndred yard Part four and turn

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Speaker 1: into a you know, a d seven yard Part three

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Speaker 1: if that's your if that's what you want to do

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Speaker 1: at any point, and you know, play to your straints

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Speaker 1: or whatever you might want to do. And uh, people

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Speaker 1: need to be more inventive about the game. So whatever

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Speaker 1: these guys are talking about, I'm in favor of. And um,

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Speaker 1: you know it's easy. Uh. The U s A is

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Speaker 1: an authoritative figure in our lives and always dictating how

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Speaker 1: the game should be played. Uh, but you know it,

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Speaker 1: golfs a lot older than the U. S j A.

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Speaker 1: So the idea of you know, creating your own scoring system,

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Speaker 1: just having the joy the game, the fun of the

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Speaker 1: game anyway it happens. Um, obviously it's part of why

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Speaker 1: we play. So, um, I'll be eager to learn more

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Speaker 1: about that as well. Yeah, it is sort of freeing

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Speaker 1: because uh, you know, if you're playing a GLIC like

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Speaker 1: there's some courses, feels like every part three is like

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Speaker 1: a five iron, you know, the way they set it up.

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Speaker 1: It's a design flaw and it's like, gosh, I wish

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Speaker 1: this would be so much cooler if you played it

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Speaker 1: all the way back, or you played it as a

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Speaker 1: little hundred yard or and uh, if you're playing off

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Speaker 1: the scorecard and traditional golf, you don't grant yourself that liberty.

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Speaker 1: But the whole point is to have fun. You might

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Speaker 1: as well play the hole as you want to play it,

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Speaker 1: so uh, it's kind of nice to be given that permission.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I need that permission. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like you've already figured that out a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: But I just kind of play the courses it's presented

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Speaker 1: to me. But I guess that's kind of an outdated view.

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Speaker 1: And it's really interesting how at US opens in particular. Um,

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Speaker 1: if the U s JA does have any fun in

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Speaker 1: terms of changing team positions radically from what the practice runs,

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Speaker 1: are players freak out And it should be the opposite.

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Speaker 1: They should embrace the challenge of, oh now I got

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Speaker 1: to figure out something on the on the fly, and

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Speaker 1: the better players would welcome that more. Uh, But they don't,

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Speaker 1: And I think it's telling. Well. I always think about

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Speaker 1: Jim Fear at the Olympic Club on the final round

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Speaker 1: the year that Webb Simpson won, went on that part

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Speaker 1: five I think sixteen. The tea's way up and it's

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Speaker 1: this big dog leg and he couldn't figure out how

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Speaker 1: to play the whole about of making a killing bogey.

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Speaker 1: And after we just bitching about it, well, they didn't

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Speaker 1: put the teas there to practice, rouser, how are we

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Speaker 1: supposed to know, We'll figure it out, Jim one of

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Speaker 1: the best players in the world, like number three all

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Speaker 1: time on the money list, Like figure it out. Then

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Speaker 1: I thought it was such a weird complaint. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: that would be like Tom Brady complaining, well, we didn't

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Speaker 1: practice against his defense. They threwout us in the fourth quarter,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't fair, Like come on, man and Marian

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Speaker 1: had that famous when Phil Mickelson, uh struggled with the

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Speaker 1: long part three and Uh, I played the whole the

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Speaker 1: other day with the driver by the way and and

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Speaker 1: drove it on the ground. Who cares. It's still get

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Speaker 1: the ball in the hole and the fewest strokes possible,

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Speaker 1: or in this other form that you're talking about, get points.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know much about how that works. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: as you say, figure it out, it's part of the

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Speaker 1: part of the joy of the game. That was an

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Speaker 1: A plus humble brag there, Michael effortless. Not only the

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Speaker 1: Mary and tea time, but you know you drove it

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Speaker 1: all the green like that. Impressive. Well, now the guys,

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Speaker 1: the guys started playing with any four are and so

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Speaker 1: it was really a humble bag. It was more like

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Speaker 1: gout a necessity. But you know what, I find that

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a very telling moment from Phil's career.

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Speaker 1: That's two thousand. It's a final round and um, they

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Speaker 1: put the teas all the way back. Phil had dropped

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Speaker 1: his driver that week because Marian plays short. He added

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Speaker 1: a fifth wedge and he gets up there and he

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Speaker 1: needed more club. He tried to smash his three wood

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Speaker 1: made double bogie, veering off the tea. He got in

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Speaker 1: Mike Davis's face and was barking at him like, bro,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to win the US Open, Savior energy to

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Speaker 1: make part, not to complain to the setup guy. And

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Speaker 1: even though you know, Davis later told me, well, the

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Speaker 1: wind switched and maybe was into the wind. It was

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Speaker 1: playing too long, and you know, Phil might have had

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Speaker 1: a point, but the larger point is to get to

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Speaker 1: get so distracted and flummix that you're you're in the

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Speaker 1: face of the setup. Dude, when when you got to

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Speaker 1: go like try and win the US Open Like that

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Speaker 1: was a telling moment on Phil, I thought, very much so.

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Speaker 1: And this will probably a wonderful moment to segue into

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Speaker 1: our raised on debt today. Um uh to talk about

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Speaker 1: your new book, Allan, Uh? Are are you ready to

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Speaker 1: do that? Yeah? Yes, it's you know, the release date

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Speaker 1: now is whatever, less than two weeks away. Thank god.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this book for years and and

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Speaker 1: then you know, we dropped that excerpt back in February

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Speaker 1: and things got a little crazy, and it's been so

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Speaker 1: much build up. So I'm happy to talk about the

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Speaker 1: totality of the book and not just little teases and

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Speaker 1: and have to hold off like it's cathartic to actually

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Speaker 1: be able to talk about it in full. So I'm ready,

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Speaker 1: if you are, I am. Let's let's just start right there.

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Speaker 1: Because it's the weirdest record in golf to have six

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Speaker 1: runner up finishes in US Opens. The math would you

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Speaker 1: would you would think it is impossible? Uh? For for

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Speaker 1: that to happen. Um, Now, did you cover all six

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Speaker 1: runner ups or yeah, uh, what stands out most in

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Speaker 1: your mind? Which is the most colossal of them? To you?

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Speaker 1: That is such an inititing question because they all have

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Speaker 1: their their own backstory. I mean, um, you know, shinna

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Speaker 1: cock and O four is some of the best golf

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Speaker 1: that Fills ever played in his life. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the course went over the edge and he made that

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Speaker 1: double bogey on the seventy one hole, And in reporting

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Speaker 1: this book, I've never heard the story like that. He

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Speaker 1: had a little pebble behind his ball in the bunker

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Speaker 1: and he tried to you know, hit a different kind

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Speaker 1: of bunker shot to miss the rock. His ball came

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Speaker 1: out with no spin and you know, makes a killing

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Speaker 1: double bogey even though he played you know, Tita green

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Speaker 1: probably the best, probably the best ball striking week he's

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Speaker 1: ever had. Um. And he's still rused that one, I

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Speaker 1: think more than others. You know, we talked about Marion,

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Speaker 1: but you know on thirteen, that little that little part

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Speaker 1: of three feels like five wedges in his bag and

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Speaker 1: somehow he picked the wrong one and he flies the

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Speaker 1: green and it's just like all time growner you know,

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Speaker 1: and we can go through each of them, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I think Pinehurst is the one that that that resonates.

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Speaker 1: I went really deep on it in the book because

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Speaker 1: it was really Phil's first chance to win a major.

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Speaker 1: There was the whole drama of of Amy about to

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Speaker 1: give birth and bones carrying the beeper, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: losing Payne Stewart so soon after that just gave the

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Speaker 1: whole thing a mythical quality. And um, I hope it's

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Speaker 1: not too much for readers, but I just and Tiger

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Speaker 1: was in the mix, and v J and you had

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Speaker 1: you had David Duval with his singed fingertips from the

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Speaker 1: scalding kettle. There was just so much happening that week,

425
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I I'd talked to Amy and

426
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: Phil about at length through the years, and um, you

427
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: know the kind of the life and death that defines

428
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 1: that tournament, and I think that one stands out. But

429
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's going through the book and really researching

430
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: these tournaments. One thing I had forgotten is how many

431
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: little puts Phil missed in crunch time that really mattered.

432
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 1: You know, the seventeenth hole at Pioneers. She's got a

433
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: five footer. Um he misses that. Um, you know Bethpage,

434
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 1: Uh the first time went with Lucas Glover one. You

435
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: know he's got like a three and a half footer

436
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: on the closing holes. He misses that. You know, obviously

437
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: he the seventeenth hole a shinnecock and you know four

438
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: he you know, he three puts from five ft there

439
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: on the seventy feet hole. Like it's just man, he

440
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: not only was he there, but it was within his

441
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: grasp so many times. And then I think probably my

442
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the whole book is coming down

443
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: the stretch at Wingfoot and going through that whole thing

444
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: in forensic detail and having everyone from Johnny Miller to

445
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: Andy North to Hale Irwin critiquing phil and Bones and um,

446
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: it's just I was out there when it happened. I

447
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: was standing right there in the eighteenth fairway, and I

448
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: caught up with film the locker room when he was

449
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: he just gotten ghostly white and really was probably in

450
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: some sort of clinical shock, and um, it's just indelible

451
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: that whole thing. And I love that part of the book.

452
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: And when when I was I read the audio book,

453
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 1: which was his own kind of fun challenge, and when

454
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: I get excited, like the producer would always like slow down,

455
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: slow down. I He's like, I know something good's about

456
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: to happen because you start speeding up and kept in

457
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: the Shinnekock chapter. Man, I was like racing. We had

458
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: to do it over and over because it's just like

459
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: for me, I almost like I feel like I'm there

460
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: again and hopefully I can transport the reader a little bit.

461
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: But um you know, they're just it's the it's his

462
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: entire career distilled into fifteen minutes really, and it's it's

463
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: utterly fascinating on every level. And have so many voices,

464
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: you know, Johnny Miller, you like on down the line,

465
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: I think, um, I think it. We all know the

466
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: broad strokes of what happened. But when you that's the

467
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: fun of a book. We have a limited h well

468
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: somewhat unlimited time and unlimited space, and you can just

469
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: keep bringing in more layers and more layers, and um

470
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 1: so yeah, reliving the US opens was was a fun

471
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: part of the of this tale because it's, as you mentioned,

472
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: it's really incredible. On one hand, you wouldn't have given

473
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: how you know, among the all time greats feel is

474
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: probably the worst driver of the golf ball, without question.

475
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: You wouldn't expect him to contend to the open. The

476
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 1: fact that he kept throwing himself in there speaks to

477
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: his his grind and his escapability. Um. But but then

478
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: he was there so often to never get it done.

479
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: It's it's really, it's really, um, it's really an incredible

480
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: part of his legacy. You know, just the way you

481
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: answer that question, Alan uh Uh, brings to mind this

482
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: for me. The book has so much energy, just like

483
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: your answer that question did. And you know, people are

484
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: accustomed to writers who love the game and are serious

485
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: about the game, whether it's Herbert Warren Win or any

486
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: number of other people going in depth about golf events

487
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: from yesteryear, and unless you're really dearly deeply into it,

488
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: it can be very boring. This book is the total opposite.

489
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: This book is super conversational, super emotional, very fast to

490
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: read in the best sense of it. And because you

491
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: were there, you are there as the reader. I mean,

492
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: you really feel like the whole thing is unfolding, like

493
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: you're watching a highlight reel, but with your commentary, your

494
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: insight and all the people you bring into it along

495
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: the while so everyone knows at this point who follows

496
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: the game about Phil and live golf in your role

497
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: in that we can talk about that later, And that's

498
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: one reason to come into the book. But anybody who

499
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: loves golf and is interested in how this singular career

500
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: has unfolded would be doing themselves a tremendous disservice if

501
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: they don't read it because you don't like I'll often

502
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 1: say this about Augusta National, this is fantasy stuff. But

503
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: if you really want to soon Augustine Nashville, you've got

504
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: to go to a master's, you gotta watch on TV,

505
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: and you have to have a chance to play the course.

506
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: If you've done all three, then you really can you

507
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: can really sort of appreciate the masters in its totality.

508
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: If you really want to have some understanding of the

509
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: struggles of modern golf and the struggles of being Phil Michelson,

510
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: you really have to read this book. And it's a

511
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: total joy. It's loaded with energy as you are, Alan,

512
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: and uh I feel privileged to have read it early on,

513
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 1: and and uh uh and I'm so and I'm so,

514
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you wrote it and uh so

515
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: so with that in mind and thinking about we we

516
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: know the qualities of the people who dwell in US opens.

517
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: There Ben Hogan, Jack Nicholas, Tiger Woods Hailer, when I mean,

518
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: there are three of the greatest, all similar in highly

519
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: intelligent but an applauding kind of way. And then you

520
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: have this crazy intelligence of Phil Michaelson, which is very

521
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: left brain, very creative and would like you would think,

522
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: as you were just saying, would never do well in

523
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: the US open. And there he is contending again and again.

524
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: So I guess at least this question, Alan, Um, how

525
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: would you characterize Phil Michelson's intelligence to somebody? Hm, that's

526
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: really interesting. Well, he for starters, he's a great conversationalist,

527
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of funny stories in the book

528
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: about Phil just dominating these dinner parties. And Um, I

529
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: think it was it was David's love who's told me, Uh,

530
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: Phil is the only guy who out here who enjoys

531
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: pro ams because he can get paired with a doctor

532
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: or a pilot and then he can he can pick

533
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: up five or six little factoids and then he'll regurgitate

534
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: him for the rest of his life as if he's

535
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: an expert and I thought that was very telling. You know,

536
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: it's become such a cliche about Phil, but he does

537
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: want to be the smartest guy in the room, and

538
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: he loves the sound of his own voice. And um,

539
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: to his credit, he has quite a memory, you know.

540
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: His one of his college teammates told me, you know,

541
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: Phil definitely has a photographic memory, because he would take

542
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: my notebook for tests and he would, uh, you know,

543
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: all all the notes from class and he would study

544
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: it and you can get a hunters on the test.

545
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: And then I'd missed all these questions and Phil would say,

546
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: it's right there on page six on the bottom, you dumbass,

547
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: like like it's in your own handwriting, and um, you know,

548
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: he does have an ability to recall, and me, I

549
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: can I can think of this was like a parlor

550
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: trick that Phil used to do when he'd roll into

551
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: a new city for a tournament and it would be

552
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: all the local press and you start talking about the

553
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: roster of their NFL team, and he could go like

554
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: one through forty nine, like he knew who the backup

555
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: punter was and um, uh you know, now was he

556
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: the night before was he pulling over the roster to

557
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: make sure he got it right. Probably, I mean, there's

558
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: his performative but um, he does have a crazy recall

559
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: for for my nusha. Um. But at the same time

560
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't always serve him well that that need to

561
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: to show off and to get in the final word.

562
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: And um, so I think feels a very smart guy.

563
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: I don't think he's quite as smart as he thinks

564
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: he is, but that's part of what makes him fun

565
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: and ridiculous, and um, it gets him in trouble. You know,

566
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: we started shooting off his mouth, whether it's about Tiger's equipment,

567
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: and on the merits, he was probably correct. Then there's

568
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: a funny quote from Nick Foldo saying saying that, like

569
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: what Phil said was hilarious because it was true. He's

570
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: like Tiger's driver was terrible and um but of course

571
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: that that's nuance in the moment, Tiger had eight major championships,

572
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: Phil had zero, and it didn't make sense for Phil

573
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: to be popping off, right, But you know, was he

574
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: was he strictly speaking correct, Yeah, Tiger had not maxed

575
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: out the latest technology and his equipment wasn't fear to

576
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: feels from a performance standpoint, But Tiger obviously knew what

577
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: he was doing and could use it in an effective way.

578
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: So so shout up Phil. But um, so that that's

579
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: that's what's the tension in Phil's life is that he

580
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: always has to be right. You know, he wants to

581
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: show that to you that he does know what he's

582
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: talking about, and it gets him in trouble up to

583
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: including you know, his all the Saudi stuff. So but

584
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: he's a fun character. You'd rather have that than someone

585
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: who's brooding and internal and you never know what's on

586
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: their mind. And um, Phil will tell you what he's

587
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: thinking and feeling. And um. You know there's a quote

588
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: from Stewart Sink in the book. You were talking about

589
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: the Ryder Cup and Phil's mixed legacy and of course

590
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: Tigers as well. This this stat blows my mind. Tiger

591
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: has been on one winning Writer Cup team his entire career.

592
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: It's absolutely unbelievable because he missed some from injury and

593
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: and other things. And um, but you know Stuart Sink

594
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,959
Speaker 1: was saying, it wasn't that Tiger didn't care, as some

595
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: people suggested. It was that he had a way of

596
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: doing it, which was keeping everything close to the vest

597
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: and he would he thought his job was to go

598
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: in five points and that was it, That's all that mattered.

599
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: But Phil wanted to talk everything through, and he wanted

600
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: to get people invested in the process, and he wanted

601
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: to to team build, and he wanted to strategize. And

602
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: there's just the really the difference in their personalities. And

603
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: you know, Sink said, I would rather have Fiel's way.

604
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: You know, that's what it's about, you know, when you're

605
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: in this team setting. Um so um there. You know,

606
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 1: it's just it's just interesting how how different those two

607
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: characters are, and how how different feels from almost any

608
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: other tour pro or even modern athlete in his his

609
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: need to overshare, which is great for for those of

610
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: us in the typing business. And of course you can

611
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: engulf as in life, you can only be yourself, uh he.

612
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: He can't try to be hall Ruin because he's nothing

613
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: like Kiler Ruin. Um. But be interested to know your

614
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: take on this, uh In. Jim, you know, we both

615
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with Jim Bones mcguy. You know,

616
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: we're both very very fond of him. I would say,

617
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: when you talk to Bones, his golfing mind is I

618
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: think less emotional and more, how's the ball sitting? What

619
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: can you do with it? Where can you miss? Um?

620
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: When it's all said and done, what do you think

621
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: bones Is contribution is to Phil his career? Would Phil

622
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: have one more or less without Bones? Of course, there's

623
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: no real answer to that question. But but what's your

624
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: overall take on Phil's or Bones contribution Phil's career? Yeah,

625
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: that was part of the tension of watching them work together,

626
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: is because they are different and in their constitutions, and

627
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: I think how they think about golf, and um, you know,

628
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: I have some fun getting this whole notion that you know,

629
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: the bones will get one veto and people have heard

630
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: that through the years, but some of those stories are

631
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: really funny, and um, I think I think Bones was

632
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: such a steadying influence for Phil. And even even if

633
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's a quote in the book from Phil,

634
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: He's like, if we're between the seven and eight iron

635
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: and he wants me to hit the seven, I can't

636
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: live in I want to hit the eight. I can't

637
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: live with going following his advice and going over the green.

638
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: I can live with hitting my club and coming up

639
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: short because that was my choice. And so you know,

640
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: I think that was it. That's how a lot of

641
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: golfers are, but it was exaggerated with Phil because there

642
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: was so much conversation, so much discussion, so much information. Ultimately,

643
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: he always had to do it his way. And it's

644
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: it's amazing that Bones lasted twenty five years and that

645
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: given that tension. Um. But I think beyond the actual strategizing,

646
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: I think, you know, feel such a wild card and

647
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: he's so flighty and and Bones is so rock solid,

648
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: and it gave him some ballasts you know, day to

649
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: day that Phil really needed. You know. Of course he

650
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: wins w g C with his brother and he wins

651
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, when Phil went to Tim Michelson as his

652
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: caddie and he wins the PG Championship at age fifty.

653
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: So we've seen this many times in golf, where a

654
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: guy pulls his agent or his girlfriend out in a

655
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: pinch and they go on to win. We all know

656
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: the players are the most important part of the equation.

657
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: But I think I think Bones brought um an important

658
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: component to just to fill existence and um, you know,

659
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: part of I get into this, this duality with Phil

660
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: and Tiger a fair amount in the book, and one

661
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: of the things that always hurt Tiger from a public

662
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: relations standpoint was the people around to him were so disagreeable.

663
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: You know, Steve Williams is tossing cameras into a pond,

664
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: and we all know Mark Steinberg's Asian as doctor no

665
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: because he never wanted to help reporters with anything. And

666
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: Ellen Woods was a total cipher who never I don't

667
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: think was ever really quoted by any reporter except for

668
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: People Magazine after the scandal um um. Whereas Phil had

669
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: these people around him who were very giving. You know,

670
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: Amy is is chatty and fun and she'll tell you things.

671
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: And you know, Rick Smith, the swing coach, was super

672
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, media savvy, almost probably too much so he'd

673
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: love to be quoted. But Bones was really a key

674
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: person in that whole equation where he forged a lot

675
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: of relationships with different reporters and he would tell you

676
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: stuff you needed in a pinch. And you know, Tiger

677
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: spoke after every round, good or bad, and he's never

678
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: got enough credit for his professionalism. You know, Phil, he

679
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: played bad, he would storm off plenty of times, but

680
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: Bones was kind of there to like pick up the

681
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: pieces and he would fill in the gaps for the

682
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: reporters and that really helped fill in an important way

683
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: from a public perception, because, um, you know, Bones was

684
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: just I mean I remember talking to him two thousand

685
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: thirteen US Open Marion. I texted him said I'm trying

686
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: to figure out what the hell happened on the thirteenth hole,

687
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: and he called me and told me, And it was

688
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: really important for my story. Like you know, you're not

689
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: gonna get that from Steve Williams. You I can't get

690
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: that from too many of their caddies in the heat

691
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: of that moment. That just the crushing disappointment. Um, and

692
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to have a resource like

693
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: that for all of us reporters was really important for

694
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: for the for telling phil story. And So I don't

695
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: know would would fill one more or less with a

696
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: different caddy. That's hard to say, but I don't think

697
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: he would have had as much good will and I

698
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: don't think, Um, you know, Bones, if you look at

699
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: if you go to a tournament, he's more popular than

700
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: all but probably fifteen players out there as far as

701
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: name recognition and fans sentiment. And I mean I did

702
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: put a podcast with him years ago, and it was

703
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: like the most downloaded golf podcast that sports had ever

704
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: had more than other players, just because he's such a

705
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: good storyteller and such an anecdotal thinker. So, um, yeah,

706
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: it's there's an X factor there that was important to fill.

707
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: But would you would have been a Hall of Famer

708
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: and one of bunch tournaments? You know? Certainly? Um, but um,

709
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: you know who knows. I think they're so inseparable that

710
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: it's hard to think about Phil's career without him. It's

711
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: very very well said and very interesting, you know. And

712
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised to hear that about about how people

713
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: responded to your podcast of Bones because with Bones, and

714
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 1: one would say definitely of Lee, Trevino and Arnold even

715
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: Uh and others through the years, it is really all

716
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: about the Gulf and Uh, and part of why we

717
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: get frustrated with Phil Entiger, you would say the same.

718
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: And with Phil it is about the Gulf and then

719
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: all his theorizing and other stuff. So he's sort of

720
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's part of the joy of Phil, and

721
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: it is Phil, but it's not that pure, even though

722
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: he does have a pure obsessiveness with golf. But there's

723
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: always lots and lots of other stuff. Uh, going on

724
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: going on with Phil Alan, how do you weigh this?

725
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: You you obviously have a lot of affection uh for Phil. Um.

726
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: Some people may not realize this, but you know, if

727
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: they grow up on the on this really antiquated notion

728
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: of you know, the reporter as an unbiased person. Well,

729
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: first off, we are reporters as a starting point, but

730
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: then we're more to it, and of course we do

731
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: bring all of our human experience and center and our

732
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: motion to it. But so for you, writing about Phil

733
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: as much as you have, and especially in this book,

734
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: how do you weigh your genuine affection for Phil and

735
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: for Amy and for how good he is with reporters, um,

736
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: with how frustrating and self absorbed and actually difficult he

737
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: can be at times. How did you weigh these two

738
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: things in the writing of the book. Well, that that's

739
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: what makes feel so interesting is he talked about flavor

740
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 1: notes in coffee. He has every flavor note I mean

741
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: as as a human being. Like if he was just

742
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: one or the other, he would be far less interesting.

743
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: But he's everything, and he can be incredibly charming, and

744
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: he can also be petty and vindictive, and he can

745
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: be hilarious. Um. And and he he has a great

746
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: needle and he can be really fun to be around.

747
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: And he can also be a total dick, and um,

748
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: he could be incredibly thoughtful and gracious, and there's just

749
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: there's so many warring impulses within him. And I think

750
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: that's what makes feel so fascinating. You know, most of

751
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: us are we are who we are, and it's it's

752
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: a little easier to define. But he he runs a

753
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: gamut of human emotions like uh within and that that

754
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: was a fun challenge in this book was to capture

755
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: all of that. And you know, I certainly celebrate his

756
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: philanthropy and all his random acts of kindness and his

757
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: mentorship to young players, and he doesn't He puts a

758
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: lot of great vibes out into the world and does

759
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: a lot of really good things, and that's all in

760
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: the book. But um, he also has a tendency to

761
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: be his own worst enemy. And um, you know, all

762
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: the scandals and controversies are in the book too, And

763
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: that that's why I think feels a fun character to

764
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: read about, because he's just so unique and he's he's

765
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 1: had a very big life. I mean, um, there's there's

766
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: just funny things too to get into that I had

767
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: forgotten or I never knew. I mean, like you go

768
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: back to Walker Cup in Ireland and Phil hits a

769
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: ball into the rough and plays a shot and later

770
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: a camera camera person interviewer asked him about it and

771
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: he says, oh, yeah, I don't want to I don't

772
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: want to hit over there because the irishmen are not

773
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: that attractive. And it just became an actual international incident,

774
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: like Phil had. The Irish consulate demanded an apology that

775
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: Phil had the tape and on one hand, and it's

776
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a little throwaway comment and he

777
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: was just trying to be funny, but it became such

778
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: a big deal and it it defined the whole Walker

779
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: Cup and inevitably Phil's match in singles becomes the most

780
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: important one, and he's his crazy ass flop shot off

781
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: a hard pan lie to the last hole to save

782
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: par to win the match and win the Walker Cup

783
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: for for the United States, and it's like his whole

784
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: life and a microcouse him, like the genius with the

785
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: golf club in his hand, the recklessness when he open

786
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 1: in his mouth. Um. But also it's kind of funny.

787
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: I mean, like umnent. We have to appreciate it because

788
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good line. I have nothing against Irish woman.

789
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: I've met some very attractive ones. But it's just a

790
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: funny thing to say in that context no other golfer

791
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: would ever say. And um so, like it's totally forgotten

792
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: and it's insignificant to his life, but to relive that

793
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: and talk to Paul McGinley and talk to Bob May

794
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: and David Faye and all the people who are there, Like,

795
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: it's a really funny couple of pages in the book,

796
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: and it tells you like that's you know, Phil still

797
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: an amateur, right, Like that's who he was, And thirty

798
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: years later, he's still stepping in it. He's still like

799
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: creating these wildfires for himself, and um and so to

800
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: to bring some of these to life and the points

801
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: not to like kill the guy, Like I think the

802
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: whole the whole Walker Cup thing is hilarious, but um

803
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: it was. Did it define that whole week for him

804
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: and his teammates? Yes? And uh So, there's there's a

805
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: lot of moments like that in the book where it's

806
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: just fun to get into Phil's pensiont for you know,

807
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: stepping uh stepping on his own toes. Well, you just

808
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: used a really interesting phrase, and I think a lot

809
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: of listeners or some listeners wouldn't necessarily know that you

810
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: were never trying to kill the guy. You are just

811
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: trying to present the guy as he really is, the

812
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of Phil, which is why he's so interesting.

813
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: But it does segue into into this question. We saw

814
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: Tiger's life turned upside down. Um, you know, an incredibly

815
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: short amount of time, we've seen Patrick reads or with

816
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: some of these cheating allegations. Uh, much the same. Those

817
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: kind of evolved over time. In my life, we saw

818
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's life get turned upside down. In my life,

819
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen somebody go from being

820
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: the he did something absolutely spectacular and and and I'll

821
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: do this very briefly, and then you gave me your

822
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 1: your take on it. Just a year ago, at age fifty,

823
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: winning the PGA Championship, and not just winning the PGA Championship,

824
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: but beating Brooks kept go down the stretches, playing part

825
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: to do on a tough, long, difficult golf course where

826
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: a lot can go wrong. Now they were wide ferries,

827
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: there were there were some technical things that that definitely

828
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: lend itself in his favor. But here's the golfer on

829
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 1: the ultimate high. To go from that perch to tumble

830
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: down to where he is so quickly, it's absolutely stunning. Um,

831
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: I would say you played no role in it. Others

832
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: would disagree with that, But I'm wondering, can you give

833
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: us your overall sense of what it's been like for

834
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: you to be a player in this story and an

835
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: observer of this story, to go from here to here

836
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: in Shakespearean terms, You've never in the world of sport,

837
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: you almost have never seen anything like it. Yeah, it's

838
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: been a little disorienting, I mean, I'm sure. Yeah. When

839
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: when writing up all the Saudi stuff in the book,

840
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: like I knew it was gonna create a buzz and

841
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: that people would be interested, I didn't think it was

842
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: so explosive because to me it was obvious that Phil

843
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: was working both sides of the street and that he

844
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: was he was trying to leverage one against other. He was,

845
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: but that was pretty clear, Um, And I guess the

846
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: reason that it became such a big deal, as he

847
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: said the quiet parts out loud, you know, as discussed

848
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: Phil can't help himself and so if he had just

849
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: towed the line and said, yeah, we're just trying to

850
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: grow the game and it's a great vehicle for for

851
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: young women in Saudi Arabia to learn sport. And like,

852
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: all these guys go there and take the checks and

853
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: they do that and everyone rolls their eyes and knows

854
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: that's total bullshit. But um, it's like an established script

855
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: that has been vetted by the public and get away

856
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 1: with it. But that's not Phil, Like he's gonna tell

857
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: you what he thinks. And um, they are ski motherfucker's like,

858
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: and you know, Saudi Arabia has made over church the

859
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: fire Pit Collective about doing content over there, and we

860
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: said no, like, we don't want to be involved with them. Um,

861
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: so you have to make your own you have your

862
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: own little moral compass, I guess. But um, you know,

863
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: the intensity of the reaction was was a surprise to me.

864
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: And um, I'm still I'm still somewhat baffled because you know,

865
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: the whole pg A bunch of PGA tour stars were

866
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: over there in February collecting their checks and um, but

867
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: I think Phil was so callous in the way he

868
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: dismissed the atrocities of Saudi Arabia. And it was also this,

869
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, the sneakiness of to be you know, helping

870
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: this rival league to get set up working against your

871
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: own home tour. It was the combination that was the

872
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: one to punch and um. But yeah, it's it's been

873
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: it's been quite you know, basically a three months since

874
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: since that strup dropped, you know, leading up until now.

875
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: And I mean it's taking a toll on me for

876
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: sure because as a reporter, you never were want to

877
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: be in the middle of the story. Like I mean,

878
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: this happened to you with Michelle we way back when

879
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: Michael like um, when you know, she took a bad

880
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: drop and then you you got you became part of

881
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: that story as well. It's not a comfortable position to

882
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: be in. But ultimately, you know, your obligation is to

883
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: the story, to the reader, and to the truth. And

884
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: so that's that's always been kind of the guiding light.

885
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had players mad at me before about

886
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: things and that that's part of the job. But you know,

887
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: fulfill to miss the Masters and it's still up in

888
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: the air if he's gonna be the PGA Championship, Uh,

889
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's weird to have played some role

890
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: in that, and it's not comfortable and it's not it's

891
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: not something I relish, but it's you know, my obligation

892
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: in this was to tell that the story completely and Phil.

893
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: I had the goods from Phil, and um, you know,

894
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 1: it was a really important moment in professional golf and

895
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: it remains so we don't know what Scott is all

896
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: going to play out, but the biggest question was what

897
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,439
Speaker 1: does Phil want? Nobody really knew except for me, and

898
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: so we could have left it buried in the book,

899
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: you know, Bob Woodward style, and it's still no one

900
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: would even know about all of this, but that just

901
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: felt irresponsible, Like this was you know, as a as

902
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: a reporter, you gotta gather information. You got disseminated, and

903
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: I have the information and so um or nearly you

904
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: would not drop an excerpt that that far in advance

905
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: of publication. But it was just there was a key

906
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: moment all this for Saudi Arabia and Phil and the

907
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,959
Speaker 1: PGA tour, and so it's it's led to this long

908
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: run up where um, you know, it's I'm just I'm

909
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: going back to your question. I'm happy for people to

910
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: read the whole book because it will see as your

911
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: kind words earlier, I think it's air and balanced, look

912
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: at a complicated life, and you know we have the

913
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: totality of a fil when when you when you strip

914
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: that away and you just have you go right to

915
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: the Saudi stuff. Um. You know, as you're reading the book,

916
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: there's almost like this feeling of an inevitability, like something

917
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: something bigs come in and you know it's in all

918
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: the Savy steps in the last chapter. Um. And when

919
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: you take away some of that context, and people who

920
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: you don't maybe you know, I don't really know how

921
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: you know, Phils clash with the institutions. You know, I

922
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: get into all his stuff with the U. S g A.

923
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: I get into his battles with the PGA tour like

924
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: he's always been kind of a a rebel in his

925
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: own little way, and this this is just the the

926
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: culmination of you know, a decade or more of sort

927
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: of of civil disobedience and as far as you know,

928
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: as far as Field goes, so m but you know,

929
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: the extrapt kind of lacked some of that context and

930
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: so that I think that has given people, you know,

931
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,959
Speaker 1: maybe the feeling like this book is like the point

932
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: us to takedown Phil and that thought, it's just a

933
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: presented for who he is, and excuse me, who he

934
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: is can is complicated. He can be manipulative, if he

935
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: can be he can be uh, he can be greedy,

936
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: he can be all those things. Now there's a whole

937
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: other side to him that's presented. But um, you know,

938
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: when when that story dropped people and didn't have that

939
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: part of it, and so um, I'm just relieved that

940
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: the whole book is going to be out there now

941
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: and people can can see that the context of of

942
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: of all that Saudi stuff and and really within a whole, big,

943
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: complicated life. Do you think he's suspended from the PGA

944
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: tour right now? Well, that's a matter of semantics. Um.

945
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: You know, when when all that stuff was going down,

946
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: someone very close to Phil texted me, now the pd

947
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: toy wants to suspend him. Um, so did did he

948
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: jump before he was pushed? You know? Is it? Is

949
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: it a leave of absence of his own making? I'm

950
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: you know sure, but if if you had, if if

951
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: you had played in a different way than it probably

952
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: would have been an official suspension. And how they leave

953
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: it for various bureaucratic reasons. I don't even know officially

954
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: what to call it, but clearly the tour was bringing

955
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: the hammer down on him for you know, conduct unbecoming

956
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: and uh so I would say it's a de fact

957
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: of suspension, but whether it actually counts as one only

958
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: Phil and Jay Monahan probably know that. But beyond conduct unbecoming,

959
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: based on your own reporting, your own conversations with Phil

960
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: and understanding of the PGA tour, what would really be

961
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: the offense? And I'm asking this having my own theory,

962
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: but I want to hear you discuss it. But I

963
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: don't think people really understand this. And I think once

964
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: you answer this question, if they're really listening, they will

965
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: get another sense of it. What would really be the

966
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: offense that would get Phil Mickelson suspended from the PHA tour?

967
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: Right now? Yeah, I know it's very nuance gets you know,

968
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: we're all so close to it. But if if you

969
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: rock up to a like a municipal course and you

970
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: get paired with some guys as I did about a

971
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: month ago, and they're like, so, why is Phil suspended?

972
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 1: What did he do wrong? It's hard to articulate it

973
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: because he didn't break any laws. Now, he broke someone

974
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: written rules, but we didn't break any laws. I mean,

975
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: you know you were talking about his fall from grace.

976
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, you know, ray Lewis was out on

977
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: the town and a dude got killed and he was

978
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: right there when it happened. And he came back and

979
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: won a Super Bowl and his his beloved TV commentator.

980
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: And I mean, in the in the professional sports world,

981
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: athletes have done horrible things and they've come back and

982
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: almost skated on it. And you know, Phil's take taking

983
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: this big reputational hit and he's been in this this

984
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: exile and um, I mean there is language in the

985
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: PGA tour by laws about, um, you can't bring the

986
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,959
Speaker 1: game into disrepute essentially, and I quote this from Tim

987
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: Fincham and context of Phil's gambling, but I think you

988
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: can also make the argument that he brought the game

989
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: into disrepute. But um, there's also language to the effect that,

990
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, you can't have any actions detrimental to the

991
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: business of the PGA tour. Um. Can can I interrupt

992
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: for just one saying let's let's talk about that last

993
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: clause that you just said, because even though it might

994
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: sound bureaucratic and maybe even boring to tour your listener

995
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: on a corporate sense, that is really a serious offense

996
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: in others, Let's let's go let's go a little deeper

997
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: on that. On that one sentence you said, what you

998
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: really mean by and how it played out in real life. Yeah,

999
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 1: I mean Phil was clearly working against the business interests

1000
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: of the PGA tour, you know, by helping this establish

1001
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: this rival league and being a recruiter and you know,

1002
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: helping with the by laws and all of that, and

1003
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: that that could have a monumental impact on the tors

1004
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: ability to attract sponsors and to pay its players and

1005
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: charitable giving and so that that ultimately is the the

1006
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: crux of the matter. And you know, I was talking

1007
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: to um, a pg tour veteran who knows feel really well,

1008
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: and he was piste off and I said, you know,

1009
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: why is everyone so mad at Philly. He's like, because

1010
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 1: he tried to funk the tour and he tried to

1011
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: fuck us and that was it. And and later in

1012
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: that conversation, you know, getting into I said, you think

1013
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: people are gonna forgive him? I mean, Tiger objectively put

1014
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: his family and his fans through a lot worse, and

1015
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: he did break the law, you know, with his d

1016
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 1: U I and all that, and he's never been more beloved. Um.

1017
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: He said, Well, the difference is, you know, Tiger's always

1018
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: supported the tour and he's always supported us like he's

1019
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: like Tiger had more juice than Feels ever had, and

1020
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: he he could have probably started his own his own

1021
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: circuit and has his own tournaments, but he always was

1022
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: loyal to the PG Tour. And from the player's perspective,

1023
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: that's the betrayal. Um. You know, the fans that might

1024
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: be that might be too nuanced, but um, you know,

1025
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: that's why it was really interesting the silence that followed

1026
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: all these um, all these you know, uh revelations, was

1027
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: you didn't see any players defending Phil um and uh,

1028
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: they really kind of closed ranks because for them it

1029
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: was about the business and he was messing with their

1030
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: business and um in a way that Tiger never has

1031
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: or never would. And so they will forgive all of

1032
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: tigers trespasses because he's made them rich. But phil is

1033
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: trying to take money out of their pocket on some level,

1034
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: and so that that's the fundamental break from in the

1035
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: in the business of professional golf, because I probably got

1036
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen texts or d m s right after

1037
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: that stuff dropped from players or caddies or agents and

1038
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: they all said some version of thank you, like you

1039
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,439
Speaker 1: did this all a great service by showing the world

1040
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 1: what what Phil has been up to. And I thought

1041
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: that was really interesting, Like not a single person was like, um,

1042
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, was mad at me? They were They were

1043
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: actually um. There was a sense of Catharsis, like Okay,

1044
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: now all the cards are on the table and people

1045
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: really know what's happening and they can make up their

1046
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: own mind about it. So I thought that whole reaction

1047
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: was quite fascinating. Where do you think it goes from here? Alan? Uh?

1048
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: If you were Phil's advisor, Uh, what would you suggest

1049
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: that he due to regain his public life if that's

1050
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: what he wants. Yeah, I mean it's going to be

1051
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: very complicated if he fully embraces the Saudi Tour in

1052
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: a way that a lot of us think he's going to.

1053
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 1: I mean, if he goes all in and plays all

1054
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: eight events, um, after the things he said about them,

1055
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: and we all know his true feelings, it really does

1056
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: set them up as to be kind of this. This

1057
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 1: is a moral mercenary. Now every other player in the

1058
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: field it would be guilty of the same crimes. But

1059
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: you know, for fill to have taken such a strong

1060
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: stance and been so open about it, um, it's complex.

1061
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: I mean I would advise him, you renounce the Saudi's pledge,

1062
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: your fealty to the PGA Tour and say, you know, hey,

1063
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: I was just trying. I thought I was being a

1064
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: really kg businessman. I was trying to improve the whole

1065
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: dynamics professional golf that would benefit all the players. And

1066
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: the kind of part of the tragedy in this is

1067
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: he had some good points, and he was doing those

1068
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 1: things in a way that could have helped think the

1069
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 1: professional golfer as a group. Um. And we can all

1070
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: agree the PGA Tour needs competition and needs to rethink

1071
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: its model in a lot of ways, and Phil is

1072
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: helping to apply that pressure. Um. But um, I think

1073
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: he what he woefully underestimated was the emotion around Saudi Arabia,

1074
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: which did supply you know, fifteen of the nineteen nine

1075
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: eleven hijackers and did assassinate a Washington Post journalists who

1076
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: lives in the United States and among the many other

1077
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: atrocities that they've been a part of. And so, um,

1078
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: I think Phil just thought he was he was just

1079
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: it was negotiation, but he he didn't realize that it's

1080
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: it's much deeper than that for a lot of people.

1081
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: And so if he goes all in with this outis

1082
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: that the image reclamation is going to be complex. But um,

1083
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: even so, I think if Phil comes back with a

1084
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: little bit of humility and he becomes a little more

1085
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: human in all of this, because he'd become such a

1086
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: cartoon character in the last few years through social media

1087
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: with all his preening and all the talk about his

1088
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: bombs and his calves, and it's also like he's having

1089
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: a midlife crisis and um, always missing was like the

1090
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: red sports car. And um, you know if I think that,

1091
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, sports fans love a comeback, they love a

1092
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: redemption story. Phil does have thirty years of accruede, you know,

1093
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: goodwill he can draw upon for many many people in

1094
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: the game. Um, what he says and how he says

1095
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: it and what he does is it gonna be really important.

1096
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: And you know, I the people around him, I'm not

1097
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: sure they get that. I hope he's hired, like some

1098
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: outside advisors that can walk him through this reentry into

1099
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: public life. I think that would be really helpful. I

1100
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: mean because if his public statement he put out, you know,

1101
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: five days after the excerpt drop, you know, sort of

1102
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: this non apology apology, it was a total mess, and

1103
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: I mean it kind of it kind of read like

1104
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: a midnight Donald Trump tweet. You know, it's just all

1105
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: over the place. And it didn't quite you know, he

1106
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: was he has made himself a martyr, and it was

1107
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: it was that was not a good start. Now, obviously

1108
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: it was an emotional time. There's a lot going on,

1109
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: but it clearly read like he had written that himself, which, um,

1110
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: it's not a terrible thing. You wanted to be genuine

1111
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: from the heart. But he needs a little help and

1112
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: a little guidance and um so we'll see. I mean,

1113
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: it's going to be fascinating, Um how he's going to

1114
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: come back and and where and when? I mean, whether

1115
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: it's going to be the PGA, is going to be

1116
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: the first Saudi event in London, It's gonna be the

1117
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: U s open that follows you know, around the tree

1118
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: to gust that some people are saying, now he's gonna

1119
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: sit out the whole year because I don't think he's

1120
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 1: just worried about my book. He's about Billy Walter's book,

1121
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: which has coming probably the end of this year. And

1122
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, I sent Philip copy of the book a

1123
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, like he's he has it in hand.

1124
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: I think he'll see that. Um, it's much more balanced

1125
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: than he might be fearing. And there are other revelations

1126
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: to come, but nothing that's gonna do the damage of

1127
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: the Saudi thing. And so, um, you know, I wish

1128
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: I could, I wish I had some insight into what

1129
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna do. But um, I'm just on the sidelines

1130
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: like everybody else, just watching with with great uh anticipation

1131
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: and interest. What's your sense of what could be in

1132
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: the Billy Walters book. Well, people have kind of misunderstood

1133
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: that relationship where that they feel like, you know, Billy

1134
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: was Phil's bookie, but in fact that you know, they

1135
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,919
Speaker 1: were partners and they would they would bet together, and

1136
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: I mean so Billy knows everything about that part of

1137
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: Phil's life. And they were also friends, and they play

1138
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: a lot of golf together, and they had a relationship

1139
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: that went beyond that and and so whether or not

1140
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: Phil could have saved Billy Walters in that insider trading case, Um,

1141
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: you know that that will never know that because he

1142
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: didn't testify. If Phil gotten up and testified that he

1143
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: never got insider information from Billy Walters, which they both

1144
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: have contended in their their statements to government. Um, you know,

1145
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,439
Speaker 1: investigators and others that would have helped Billy, but would

1146
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: have would have saved them from going to prison, We

1147
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: don't know that. But in Billy's mind, you know, he

1148
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: Phil kind of sold them down the river. And so

1149
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: there's a there's a grievance there, and where I was

1150
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: trying to write a very balanced look at Phil Michelson.

1151
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: That's not Billy Walter's intention. Like he's got scores to settle,

1152
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: and um, so whatever he knows is is going to

1153
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: be in the book. And um, he knows a lot.

1154
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: So But on the other hand, you know, I detail

1155
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: some of the stuff in in my book. I mean,

1156
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: everyone knows if Phil likes to gamble. Um, I was

1157
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: able to. You know, one one piece of news that's

1158
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: in the book that's important is the scale of his losses.

1159
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: And as part of the insider trading case. You know,

1160
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: Phil was subject to this this government audit and um,

1161
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: you know I had a source who had direct access

1162
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,959
Speaker 1: to these documents. And so there's a four year period

1163
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: they scrutinized from two thousand and ten to fourteen, and

1164
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: Phil claimed a total of forty million dollars and gambling

1165
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: losses in four years. That's a lot of money. Um,

1166
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: you know it was says, oh, Phil could afford it.

1167
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if you do the math and back then

1168
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: Phil is making roughly, you know, low forties millions of dollars.

1169
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: Won't you pay your taxes and your agent and your

1170
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: caddy and you maintain this fabulous lifestyle, the jets and

1171
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: the mansions and the memberships and the private schools for

1172
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: your kids and you name it. You're not left as

1173
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: much as people think. And to lose ten million dollars

1174
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: um annually, and that's that's just what was reported. You know,

1175
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: we don't know what we don't know, like um, clearly, UM,

1176
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: there's been some substantial financial pressure from from the gambling

1177
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: losses and so and trying to understand why this this

1178
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: Saudi seduction is so appealing to fill I mean we

1179
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: know that he's he's had these grievances with the PGA

1180
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: tour and this was a chance to maybe reshape some

1181
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: of those dynamics. And he certainly is I think, enjoying

1182
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: sticking to the tour in that regard, but it could

1183
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: be more necessity than than people understand. And so I

1184
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: think my book will will shed some light on that stuff.

1185
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: I know it will. But you know, Billy Walters is

1186
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: gonna have more information, he's gonna have more numbers, and

1187
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: he's gonna have more stories. But how damaging that's going

1188
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: to be, you know unknown. But um, I think you know,

1189
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: after people read this, after they read my book, they'll

1190
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: understand that that there's the gambling was is a serious

1191
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 1: thing and Phil's life and um and I'm not sure

1192
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: how much Billy's book is gonna amplify that. I mean,

1193
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: it'll there'll be more detailed, but um, I don't know

1194
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: if it's going to change the narrative that much. But

1195
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, there's so that that there's just so much

1196
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: we don't know what calculations Fills making. And on the

1197
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: other hand, maybe it's as simple as he this this

1198
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: suspension slash leave of absence is gonna end, and he's

1199
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: gonna just come back and play golf because that's what

1200
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: he does. And um, the lack of transparency from the

1201
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: PGA Tour is problematic here. Uh you know whether the

1202
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: PGA of America would would honor such a such a

1203
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: directive from the PGA Tour, that's unknown. You know that

1204
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: that that's a long complicated relationship between those two organizations.

1205
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: So we have another nine days as we're recording this,

1206
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: until Phil has to commit to the PGA Championship, and

1207
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: he may take it down to the wire, but uh,

1208
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: it's gonna be it's gonna be quite something when he

1209
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: comes back and again fills these these these warring impulses

1210
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: to over explain and to to game the system versus

1211
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: can can he can he show some actual contrition and

1212
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: some reflection and and and maybe see where he might

1213
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: have gone down the wrong path? I mean, his his

1214
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: only public statements so far, it doesn't really offer a

1215
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: definitive answer to that. Let's talk about that sameing for

1216
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: a one minute, because something in it that was just

1217
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: personally upsetting to me was when he says, in a

1218
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: passive voice, there is the problem with off the record

1219
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: comments being used. I know you, Alan, you would never

1220
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: use off the record comments for publication. None of us would, uh,

1221
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: and you would. There would never be confusion about what's

1222
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: on the record and off the record in this context,

1223
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 1: because you would have to have a discussion, and you would.

1224
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to be I want you to tell us,

1225
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: but but knowing you and knowing how I operate in

1226
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: these things, to really speak off the record about really

1227
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 1: sensitive matters, it has to be a two way street.

1228
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: There has to be there has to be an agreement.

1229
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: So for it's outrageous for him to use the one

1230
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: phrase that the public thinks they know off the record

1231
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: comments being used. So let's just talk about that for

1232
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 1: a moment, because I think people should know this about

1233
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: about you as a reporter and writer, and especially as

1234
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: they as they go into the book, and they want

1235
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: to know the value systems, of the value system of

1236
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: the person who has who has who has written the book.

1237
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: You're writing a biography, a sort of informal, casual, athletic

1238
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: personal biography of of Phil Michelson. You've tried repeatedly to

1239
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: get them um and you have it back and forth

1240
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 1: with them, and it's always maybe, no, I don't think so,

1241
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I think so, and you're getting

1242
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: from Phil and you're getting from his lawyer's plural and

1243
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 1: then the phone rings take us into that moment. Where

1244
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: were you, what was the setting and how did you

1245
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: handle it? Yeah, that was interesting. I was actually I

1246
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 1: was driving home from the Wishbone brawl down in Oceanside,

1247
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,200
Speaker 1: California's on I five and I had three of my

1248
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: kids with me because they came down. It was just

1249
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: a weekend in San Diego to have some fun and Phil,

1250
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: you know, we'd had a text volley we said you

1251
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: want to talk. I kind of had an inkling when

1252
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: he was gonna call, but not really and um so

1253
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: I pulled over and had my my daughter Abbey drive

1254
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: so I could pay more attend. I sat in the

1255
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: backseat so I could really focus on on this interview.

1256
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: And um so just the setting was was unusual. But

1257
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: you know, you can't control when someone's gonna call you, really,

1258
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna try and reschedule it for the

1259
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: next day, when when when you get him, you get them. So,

1260
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: um yeah, you know we we have this correspondence and

1261
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: you know it was preceded by his lawyer. Um basically

1262
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: making me a job offer to help Phil take on

1263
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: the tour in their in their media rights, and so

1264
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: but Lorie and I have these discussions about and of

1265
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: course I said, I can't do that. I can't take

1266
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: you know, Phil's money while I'm writing a book about

1267
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: it. It It made no sense like that that was so

1268
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: quizzical to begin with, but quizzical slash manipulative very much so,

1269
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: very much so. And that I mean that that's what's

1270
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: important understand is Phil never opens his mouth without an agenda.

1271
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: And you know, same as the same as lawyer, they're

1272
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: they're always working an angle, and same with his agent

1273
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: Steve Loy, Like you know, there's there's a sense that

1274
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: they're always trying to play you in one way or another,

1275
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,479
Speaker 1: and there's a back and forth and there's a there's

1276
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: a banter, and there's a repartee, and it's you're always

1277
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: like jousting with them. And that that was a that

1278
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: was a feature of this book, I mean. And as

1279
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,919
Speaker 1: you were saying, like I had so many people came

1280
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: to me who wanted to to uh talk about different

1281
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 1: parts of Phil's life. Many of them wanted to speak

1282
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: off the record or or I could use the material,

1283
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: but I couldn't use their name. And I had these

1284
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: ornate agreements with so many different people about how the

1285
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: interview would be conducted. What were the terms? You know,

1286
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: there was this high roller and Phil's orbit who wanted

1287
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: to speak to me. I went to go see him.

1288
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: Not only could I not bring my phone, I couldn't

1289
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: even take notes, like he wanted no trace that we'd

1290
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: ever spoken. You know, it was like Coak and Dagger stuff.

1291
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: So with all these people, you know, they would set

1292
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: the terms and I would I would push back or

1293
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: i'd i'd accept them where I would decline because it

1294
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: didn't feel right, like whatever it was. So I've been

1295
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: doing this for over a year, and you know, Phil

1296
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: text me says he wants to talk. Great, he calls

1297
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: me up and he just starts talking. And in the

1298
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 1: context of me having asked him repeatedly to speak for

1299
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: the book, I mean, definitely, anything he tells him me

1300
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: is going straight into the book unless he and I

1301
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: agree otherwise. I mean, that's that's to me. Is is

1302
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: so basic. And but he never set any ground rules.

1303
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: He never said he wanted to go off the record.

1304
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: He never said this is just between me and you.

1305
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,799
Speaker 1: Or any of those other euphemisms, like he just opened

1306
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,600
Speaker 1: a vein and told me everything. So um, I was

1307
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 1: surprised in the moment by his candor. And you know

1308
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 1: some people have said, well, look at his language. You know,

1309
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: he went he wouldn't speak like that to report, but

1310
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: Phil is like super profane in private. And even you know,

1311
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,719
Speaker 1: Steve Stricker talked about this at the Ryder Cup because

1312
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, they were on their little earpieces talking. He's like,

1313
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: anything that Phil said this whole week I can't say

1314
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: out loud because you know, he's got this buttoned up

1315
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: image and I think sometimes he just has to let

1316
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 1: it go. And so I've had other interactions with him

1317
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: like that, where um, you know, it's it's not quite

1318
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,240
Speaker 1: the what he presents to the public. So um, yeah,

1319
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: it was. It was remarkable, but I really it felt

1320
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 1: like he was unburning himself. You know. Uh. He did

1321
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: ask when the book was coming out, and I said,

1322
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: I told him it was gonna be in May, and

1323
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: it was pretty clear that point the Saudi stuff was

1324
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: going to be done and dusted and announced, and so

1325
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: you know, my analysis is that he wanted his his

1326
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: true feelings to be known and he wanted he wanted.

1327
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 1: It was a tip to you know, a little nod

1328
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: to American sports fans, like, I know these are bad guys,

1329
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 1: but this is just strictly business, and it's just a negotiation.

1330
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 1: I'm trying. I'm trying to get what I need and

1331
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: what I want, and I'm trying to help the other

1332
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 1: people out. And um, you know, if it could have

1333
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: gone either way for Phil, right, like if if you,

1334
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,959
Speaker 1: if you, if you went all in with the Saudis

1335
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 1: and there was this public outcry, then these comments would

1336
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 1: have been him saying, I get it, I understand, but listening,

1337
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: you gotta do what you gotta do. And if if

1338
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: he had stayed with the PGA tour, which could have

1339
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 1: been looked like a political defeat at least, then he

1340
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 1: would have told me, like all the concessions he got

1341
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 1: and all the battles of Monahan, and so he was

1342
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,640
Speaker 1: kind of working both sides of the street, and you know,

1343
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 1: I think that was ultimately his motivation. Um. It's interesting though,

1344
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: because enough people have asked me this, I've had to

1345
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: reflect on it. Like they're like, do you think Phil

1346
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:08,639
Speaker 1: was drunk when he called you? And you know, it

1347
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 1: was a Sunday afternoon during football season. He sounded perfectly normal,

1348
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: and he sounded as as himself. I couldn't speak to that.

1349
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 1: I didn't breathalyze him. But it's like he wasn't drunk.

1350
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: I don't think he was drunk. I think he's he's

1351
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 1: a very He's not that kind of drink. He's not

1352
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: that kind of drink or anyhow. No, he's not. He's

1353
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: more of like a red wine with dinner kind of guy.

1354
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: I don't I don't take that seriously. I just think

1355
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 1: there was an element of him being uninhibited that was

1356
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: thrilling for him. And you know, he in this public

1357
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: statement he said it was reckless. You know, my my

1358
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 1: comments were reckless. I think that's kind of the point.

1359
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: I mean, like, we know fills an adrenaline junkie, and

1360
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 1: he could have told any reporter in the world his

1361
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 1: real feelings about the Staudies. Why did he call me,

1362
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,720
Speaker 1: the one guy who was writing his biography, Like, you know,

1363
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 1: I didn't bug his office. He called me to tell

1364
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: me this stuff because he wanted me to know it,

1365
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: and he did the math. He did the math. Well,

1366
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 1: the book's not coming out un till May. The Live

1367
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,799
Speaker 1: golf thing will be off and running by that point anyhow.

1368
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 1: Uh so he knew exactly what what he was doing.

1369
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 1: It's wild though, it really is, and it's me would

1370
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: play out but go ahead, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. He

1371
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: definitely underestimated the blowback. And you know, the the excerpt

1372
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: came out when it did for the reasons we already

1373
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 1: discussed so um, but I think ultimately he just didn't

1374
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: understand the emotion surrounding this issue and that that was

1375
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 1: that was you know, Phil thought he again he was

1376
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:39,799
Speaker 1: being the smartest guy in the room, but he didn't

1377
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: quite recognize how people really feel about Saudi Arabia. And

1378
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: so it's a it's a fascinating chapter. And you know,

1379
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: we're we talking about this whenever he comes back. I mean,

1380
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 1: how he how he game plans his return of public

1381
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: life is gonna be fascinating. Hopefully it's it in southern

1382
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: Hills that would be fun. So uh, keeping in, let's

1383
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 1: end here with a wrap. Let's wrap things up here

1384
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: with with the lightning round of of quick questions from

1385
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: me um and as you think about him, uh, and

1386
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: I hardly need to say this to you, but people

1387
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 1: do reinvent their lives all the time. We've seen it

1388
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: with a Rod. It's amazing what he's done after the

1389
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 1: scandals he's been through. We saw with with Bill Clinton,

1390
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:21,960
Speaker 1: We've seen it with Tiger Woods. But then we see

1391
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 1: people who you never hear from again, like Barry Bonds

1392
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: and various others. So with with all that in mind, uh,

1393
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 1: Phil Mickelson was a luck, an absolute lot to be

1394
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,559
Speaker 1: a writer, Cup Captain. Uh do you see him ever

1395
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: becoming a writer? Cup Captain? Yes, definitely. I think this

1396
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: is gonna be a blip in the in the larger

1397
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: legacy of Phil Michelson. And it's it's a couple of

1398
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: sentences in in a three page Wikipedia like you know,

1399
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:51,680
Speaker 1: there's a recency bias and because he's been away and

1400
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 1: we have to fill this vacuum. But he's gonna be

1401
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: He's gonna be a writer, Cup Captain. I think he'll

1402
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: be in the eighteenth Tower of CBS if that's what

1403
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: he wants. I mean, he'll come back and he'll people

1404
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: be reminded of why they like him, and um, he'll

1405
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,560
Speaker 1: survive this. He survived myriad controversies. I think this is

1406
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: just gonna be another one. He went a p h

1407
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: A championship at age fifty? Do you see him contending

1408
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,679
Speaker 1: in future majors? Could you could you see him winning

1409
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 1: a major? And episode which one? Yeah? I mean Phil's dangerous.

1410
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: He still has club head speed, which he wants to

1411
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 1: tell you all about, and he still has magical hands,

1412
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: and he has the know how and he's not afraid. Um,

1413
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, those those are those are quite a suppotent combination.

1414
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 1: And so I can see him at at the right

1415
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 1: Open Championship set up being dangerous. No one plays AUGUSTA

1416
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: National better. Uh, you know, I feel like those are

1417
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: going to be his two best chances. But no one

1418
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 1: would have ever guessed he would have won on the

1419
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 1: ocean course, which is booby trapped with all kinds of horrors,

1420
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,640
Speaker 1: and he navigated that so skillfully. So any time he

1421
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: tease it up, he's a threat. He's not going to

1422
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,959
Speaker 1: be a week end week out force, but he's definitely dangerous.

1423
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 1: And you know, just as Tiger needed another mountain to

1424
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: climb and the most recent car accident gave it to him,

1425
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 1: Phil now for the first time in his life, is

1426
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 1: mounting a comeback. You know, he's never had any injuries. Um,

1427
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: he's never been away from golf like this, so he

1428
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: may come back hungrier and more rejuvenated than he's ever been.

1429
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 1: So yes, I feel still dangerous. Uh fil in the future,

1430
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: does he make more money on the golf course or

1431
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: from the coffee business. Well, I talked to a guy

1432
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: it's not in a book, but who is a venture

1433
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 1: capitalist who said, I think I think, you know, for

1434
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 1: Wellness could be a billion dollar company. Um, And so, uh,

1435
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 1: I haven't tried it. You know, I'm loyal to good

1436
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 1: Walk Coffee, as we discussed, but I'm sure you know,

1437
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: there's there's so much in that that's gone into making

1438
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: this as a as a healthful product, and we all

1439
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: know that's that's all the raids And um, I don't know.

1440
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: And I think I'm not sure how much is gonna

1441
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: make on on the golf course. Now, he's got a

1442
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:05,799
Speaker 1: lot of endorsements he needs to reconstitute. And by the way,

1443
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Phil comes back

1444
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 1: and has draft kings on his hat, like this may

1445
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 1: be what he needed just to be like you know what,

1446
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: I just want to be who I am and I've

1447
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: just I've kind of been playing this role for a

1448
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: long time, and I'm tired of playing this role and

1449
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: this is this is a chance to reset and be me,

1450
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: Like maybe they'll go all in on on on, you know,

1451
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: and and kind of tweak his public persona. And he's

1452
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:31,759
Speaker 1: a little bit of a hell raiser and it it's

1453
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,679
Speaker 1: it's been well disguised, but it leaks out here and there,

1454
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 1: and maybe he's maybe this is set him free in

1455
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: some ways. But um yeah, if if for Wellness becomes

1456
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 1: a billion dollar company, then I like his chances to

1457
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:45,719
Speaker 1: catch that in more than he's on the golf course.

1458
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 1: That's a really good insight on because we've seen in

1459
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: recent years Phil had Phils go to fallback position. Life

1460
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,679
Speaker 1: was oh shucks, oh shucks, mohucks, and then he became

1461
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 1: badass Phill with the aviators and this leak body and

1462
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 1: the tight shirts and all the rest. Uh, So he's

1463
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 1: been moving this direction of this is the real me.

1464
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm a sex figure, I'm Phil. It's a little hard

1465
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: to take seriously, but he takes it seriously, so so

1466
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 1: it does better. Okay, last thing for you, You're gonna

1467
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 1: have a coffee get together. Of course, each of you

1468
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 1: is gonna bring your own coffee. He's gonna bring his,

1469
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring yours. Uh, what would you want to

1470
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 1: say to fill directly banded man face to person person

1471
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:31,519
Speaker 1: face to face. That's a great question. I would say, Listen,

1472
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you've been through all this, and I have

1473
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: empathy for you and I'm not dancing on your grave.

1474
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a challenging time for me

1475
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 1: to to see this all play out the way it has. Like, UM,

1476
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, I don't have regrets in the reporting, Like

1477
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 1: my job is to tell the truth in this book,

1478
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,280
Speaker 1: and I think I did, and um, you know, Phil

1479
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: kind of created his own reality, but um, I honestly

1480
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,439
Speaker 1: did not think it was gonna send him into exile,

1481
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: and it would it would turn his life upside down,

1482
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: and UM, I would tell him, like, you know, I

1483
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,879
Speaker 1: have I have. I still this book was written with affection,

1484
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:11,639
Speaker 1: and I still have those feelings for Phil, even though

1485
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: he impugned my professionalism and all that, Like, uh, you know,

1486
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:19,599
Speaker 1: there's there's amotion there and I'm not out to get him.

1487
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 1: That's never the point of this book. And I hope

1488
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: he can read it with an open mind and and

1489
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 1: see that it was written with UM you know, basically

1490
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: written with a smile, because I've always enjoyed writing about Phil.

1491
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:33,280
Speaker 1: I think he's a super fun character. He's made our

1492
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: professional life so much more fun. Um. And I have

1493
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: no negative feelings towards a guy. But um, he may

1494
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, that may be hard for him to believe,

1495
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: but that that's from the heart. I would say, you

1496
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: have a lot of positive feelings about him. I mean,

1497
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 1: yet that's been true. Anybody who's listening to this conversation

1498
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 1: with having would would know that. And I don't think

1499
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: you just knowing you, I don't think you if you're

1500
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: feelings are only negative about him, you would never want

1501
01:18:57,880 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 1: to write this book in the first place. It's the

1502
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: it's the range of his personality that drew that draws

1503
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 1: you to him in the first place. That's true. I mean,

1504
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 1: to write a book about one human being, is it?

1505
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 1: Is it? You have to spend so much time with

1506
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: that person in your brain. And if I really thought

1507
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 1: Phil was just a dick and all these other things, um,

1508
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:20,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gone down that road. But he's a

1509
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 1: fun character and it was fun to write about him,

1510
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 1: and I had a great time in the typing. And

1511
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: I mean literally, I'd be at my desk eleven o'clock

1512
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 1: at night when of my kids were coming for a

1513
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: snack and I'd be like laughing. I'm like, what are

1514
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 1: you laughing about? Is that this story is a ridiculous

1515
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,720
Speaker 1: listen to this not reading this thing? Like whatever, Dad?

1516
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 1: You know, they don't they don't care. But um, you

1517
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: know some of the tales about Phil are so hysterical

1518
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 1: and um. So yeah. That That's what I hope you

1519
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 1: will take away from this book is that it's just

1520
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 1: a fun read. Um, There's there's some serious moments, there's

1521
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: there's a there's a little bit of a dark side

1522
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: to feel that is captured, but there's also a lot

1523
01:19:55,960 --> 01:20:00,080
Speaker 1: of light there and um, and so that that was

1524
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: was the challenge, was to capture all that. And you know,

1525
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 1: between the two covers of a book, I think for

1526
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: you and Phil, I think this copy get together. It

1527
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 1: could be the start of a continued beautiful relationship. Phil.

1528
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: Phil being Phil and Alan being Alan is a very

1529
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 1: powerful combination. I'm gonna leave it to you from here,

1530
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 1: all right. Well, thanks for all the thoughtful questions, Michael.

1531
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 1: That was fun, and I will I will before we

1532
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 1: sign off, I'll just tell our listeners if from Southern Hills,

1533
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:31,360
Speaker 1: Michael and I will be podcasting a lot, So if

1534
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this conversation, we're just gonna keep keep our

1535
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 1: conversations going in perpetuity here so you can listen to

1536
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 1: the Fire Drill podcast and we'll be bringing all kinds

1537
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,599
Speaker 1: of things to life from from Southern Hills. Of course,

1538
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 1: you know, Michael and I will also be writing daily

1539
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,080
Speaker 1: for fire Pit Collective dot com and who knows what

1540
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 1: other surprises are in store. So thanks for listening, um,

1541
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:57,679
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can do this again soon. So thanks

1542
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:17,640
Speaker 1: for your time. Mike, thank you. Put another log on

1543
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: the fire and we hear is getting time