1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:23,584 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In two thousand and five, I got my childhood 2 00:00:23,664 --> 00:00:27,304 Speaker 1: dream job a writer on a network sitcom. I was 3 00:00:27,864 --> 00:00:31,984 Speaker 1: so insanely excited for my first day. I drove up 4 00:00:32,024 --> 00:00:35,944 Speaker 1: to the Universal Studio's gate, gave them my name. Then 5 00:00:35,984 --> 00:00:38,664 Speaker 1: I pulled it into a parking spot next to this 6 00:00:38,784 --> 00:00:41,984 Speaker 1: office that had a cone that had a sign with 7 00:00:42,184 --> 00:00:46,304 Speaker 1: my name on it and it said producer over it. 8 00:00:47,224 --> 00:00:49,424 Speaker 1: I stared at that sign for like a full minute 9 00:00:49,464 --> 00:00:53,184 Speaker 1: in disbelief of my childhood dream coming true. Then this 10 00:00:53,384 --> 00:00:56,064 Speaker 1: Porsche nine to eleven pulled up into the spot next 11 00:00:56,064 --> 00:00:59,224 Speaker 1: to mine and knocked down its cone. As a fellow 12 00:00:59,224 --> 00:01:03,384 Speaker 1: writer stomped out towards the office. He was not sharing 13 00:01:03,504 --> 00:01:07,704 Speaker 1: my excitement. In the first week, another writer explained the 14 00:01:07,784 --> 00:01:10,664 Speaker 1: job this way. You get to take a first class 15 00:01:10,664 --> 00:01:14,384 Speaker 1: trip to Europe every day, but you never actually get 16 00:01:14,424 --> 00:01:17,664 Speaker 1: to go to Europe. You sit in a really nice 17 00:01:17,744 --> 00:01:20,824 Speaker 1: chair from ten am until at least seven pm, often 18 00:01:20,904 --> 00:01:24,544 Speaker 1: much longer. Someone brings you amazing food to your seat. 19 00:01:25,224 --> 00:01:27,544 Speaker 1: You get to look out a window, and you get 20 00:01:27,544 --> 00:01:30,464 Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom, but you never get anywhere. 21 00:01:31,424 --> 00:01:34,544 Speaker 1: The majority of the job isn't so much writing as 22 00:01:34,584 --> 00:01:36,904 Speaker 1: it is sitting in a ten hour meeting. Every day 23 00:01:37,704 --> 00:01:41,464 Speaker 1: you group talk. That's the job. The two times I've 24 00:01:41,464 --> 00:01:45,064 Speaker 1: worked in a writer's room, I haven't liked myself. I 25 00:01:45,184 --> 00:01:49,464 Speaker 1: was critical and very unsure if my ideas and utterly 26 00:01:49,544 --> 00:01:53,144 Speaker 1: unpersuasive about them. The people who were great in those 27 00:01:53,224 --> 00:01:56,744 Speaker 1: rooms were storytellers. A lot of the times they pulled 28 00:01:56,744 --> 00:01:59,424 Speaker 1: these stories from their own lives, and those stories got 29 00:01:59,464 --> 00:02:03,304 Speaker 1: turned into scripts. This week's story is about someone who 30 00:02:03,384 --> 00:02:06,864 Speaker 1: was really good at telling stories about her life, a 31 00:02:06,944 --> 00:02:16,424 Speaker 1: little too good writing his hard who's got that kind 32 00:02:16,464 --> 00:02:19,864 Speaker 1: of time when you're already busy trying to be John 33 00:02:19,904 --> 00:02:23,184 Speaker 1: Stein until it turns on a mic mab the twiddles 34 00:02:23,224 --> 00:02:26,184 Speaker 1: and knob because a journalist Frand has got in that 35 00:02:26,344 --> 00:02:30,824 Speaker 1: jewel job. Out of stories, single story, just listen to 36 00:02:30,904 --> 00:02:37,824 Speaker 1: smart people speak conversation. Feeling information is a story of 37 00:02:47,704 --> 00:02:50,944 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Finch told such good stories that she was propelled 38 00:02:50,984 --> 00:02:53,224 Speaker 1: into the writer's room of one of the most successful 39 00:02:53,264 --> 00:02:57,704 Speaker 1: TV shows of all time, Gray's Anatomy. But her story 40 00:02:57,744 --> 00:03:02,864 Speaker 1: has had some big problems. They were all lies. Peter 41 00:03:02,984 --> 00:03:06,624 Speaker 1: Keefer broke this story, which is all true for the Ankler. Peter, 42 00:03:06,784 --> 00:03:09,304 Speaker 1: thank you for coming on the show. How'd you first 43 00:03:09,304 --> 00:03:12,184 Speaker 1: come across the story. We at the Ankler, we got 44 00:03:12,224 --> 00:03:15,704 Speaker 1: an anonymous tip. It's one of those classic anonymous tips. 45 00:03:16,104 --> 00:03:19,904 Speaker 1: I hadn't even heard of Elizabeth at the time. I obviously, 46 00:03:19,944 --> 00:03:22,304 Speaker 1: like everyone in the world know about Gray's Anatomy, but 47 00:03:22,344 --> 00:03:24,344 Speaker 1: I was not some huge fan or I hadn't watched 48 00:03:24,384 --> 00:03:29,144 Speaker 1: many episodes. But my editor was adamant that this was 49 00:03:29,184 --> 00:03:32,704 Speaker 1: a potentially huge story. Was the most shocking part of 50 00:03:32,704 --> 00:03:35,424 Speaker 1: this anonymous tip finding out that Gray's Anatomy was still 51 00:03:35,424 --> 00:03:38,464 Speaker 1: on the air. I mean, it's kind of incredible. I 52 00:03:38,504 --> 00:03:42,064 Speaker 1: think it's like within it's nineteen season, you know that's 53 00:03:42,864 --> 00:03:46,304 Speaker 1: it's like just becomes part of the cultural landscape. Okay, 54 00:03:46,304 --> 00:03:49,544 Speaker 1: So Elizabeth Finch grows up in the nineteen nineties in 55 00:03:49,624 --> 00:03:52,784 Speaker 1: New Jersey and she kind of dreamed of being a 56 00:03:52,784 --> 00:03:56,064 Speaker 1: TV writer. But basically it seems like a normal childhood, 57 00:03:56,144 --> 00:04:00,264 Speaker 1: right I believe so. Yeah, one of these classic suburban 58 00:04:00,464 --> 00:04:02,864 Speaker 1: New Jersey places sounded leafy, and she went to a 59 00:04:02,944 --> 00:04:06,184 Speaker 1: very public school. She went to was excellent, and as 60 00:04:06,224 --> 00:04:08,384 Speaker 1: best I could tell, she was awkward as a kid. 61 00:04:08,624 --> 00:04:13,024 Speaker 1: She was bookish, she was drawn to stories and storytelling, 62 00:04:13,104 --> 00:04:15,304 Speaker 1: and she was writing plays at a very early age, 63 00:04:15,304 --> 00:04:17,944 Speaker 1: so she I think she had signs of precociousness when 64 00:04:17,984 --> 00:04:20,424 Speaker 1: it came to this. I don't think she was particularly social. 65 00:04:21,024 --> 00:04:23,544 Speaker 1: So yeah, by most of the signs I saw or 66 00:04:23,624 --> 00:04:27,024 Speaker 1: she told me about where that her life externally was 67 00:04:27,184 --> 00:04:30,784 Speaker 1: pretty normal. Okay, So she moves away, she goes to 68 00:04:30,904 --> 00:04:34,064 Speaker 1: USC film school, and she gets an assistant job in 69 00:04:34,104 --> 00:04:37,104 Speaker 1: a TV writer's room, and then she gets a big break, 70 00:04:37,104 --> 00:04:39,784 Speaker 1: which is writing for HBO's True Blood. And she did 71 00:04:39,784 --> 00:04:43,424 Speaker 1: pretty well there, right right. She was very low on 72 00:04:43,464 --> 00:04:47,304 Speaker 1: the totem pole at True Blood, but the showrunner took 73 00:04:47,304 --> 00:04:49,664 Speaker 1: a liking to her, and I think they gave her 74 00:04:50,184 --> 00:04:53,544 Speaker 1: a shot at writing one episode, which at that stage 75 00:04:53,544 --> 00:04:55,504 Speaker 1: of her career was not particularly normal. I think she 76 00:04:55,584 --> 00:04:57,824 Speaker 1: co wrote it with another writer and they did an 77 00:04:57,824 --> 00:05:01,464 Speaker 1: excellent job, and so that really set the stage for 78 00:05:01,544 --> 00:05:05,344 Speaker 1: a pretty mediorc rise after that for her. While she's 79 00:05:05,504 --> 00:05:07,824 Speaker 1: at True Blood, she tells everyone in the writer's room 80 00:05:07,864 --> 00:05:13,904 Speaker 1: that she's got this horrifying, incredibly rare form of bone cancer. Correct. Yeah, 81 00:05:13,944 --> 00:05:17,424 Speaker 1: she told people she was she had been diagnosed. They 82 00:05:17,464 --> 00:05:20,704 Speaker 1: found a tumor and it was a very rare form 83 00:05:20,744 --> 00:05:25,624 Speaker 1: of bone cancer called condro sarcoma. And it's it's deadly. 84 00:05:25,784 --> 00:05:28,304 Speaker 1: It's a deadly and brutal form of cancer, and there's 85 00:05:28,424 --> 00:05:31,784 Speaker 1: very few treatments for it. And then she writes about 86 00:05:31,784 --> 00:05:35,184 Speaker 1: it in various places like Elle magazine, and then she 87 00:05:35,264 --> 00:05:37,424 Speaker 1: gets kind of her dream jobs. She grew up watching 88 00:05:37,424 --> 00:05:39,904 Speaker 1: Gray's Anatomy. How did she land that job in the 89 00:05:39,904 --> 00:05:43,064 Speaker 1: writer's room there? At this point, she started to write 90 00:05:44,024 --> 00:05:47,384 Speaker 1: essays for a variety of publications, mainly for Elle magazine, 91 00:05:47,504 --> 00:05:51,064 Speaker 1: detailing the medical horrors that she was suffering through. And 92 00:05:51,504 --> 00:05:55,704 Speaker 1: evidently one of these essays made its way over to 93 00:05:56,264 --> 00:06:01,304 Speaker 1: Shonda Land and was read by Shonda Rhymes herself. So, 94 00:06:01,344 --> 00:06:03,224 Speaker 1: as far as I know, the essays that she was 95 00:06:03,384 --> 00:06:07,144 Speaker 1: explaining her medical trauma ultimately set the stage for her 96 00:06:07,184 --> 00:06:10,344 Speaker 1: joining Gray's Anatomy. Yeah, I've been staffed on two shows, 97 00:06:10,344 --> 00:06:12,264 Speaker 1: and I think it was more my essays than my 98 00:06:12,304 --> 00:06:15,384 Speaker 1: actual like script writing, because when you're in a writer's 99 00:06:15,504 --> 00:06:19,424 Speaker 1: room for like ten hours a day, you're just like 100 00:06:19,584 --> 00:06:22,944 Speaker 1: trying to generate stories. So if you have your personal 101 00:06:22,984 --> 00:06:25,744 Speaker 1: stories and your friends personal stories, your family's personal stories 102 00:06:26,104 --> 00:06:28,624 Speaker 1: are a big part of what you're getting hired for 103 00:06:28,704 --> 00:06:31,544 Speaker 1: in those rooms. Yes, that's always been the case but 104 00:06:31,624 --> 00:06:33,984 Speaker 1: from what I can tell from speaking with people who 105 00:06:34,184 --> 00:06:37,264 Speaker 1: work in that profession, the lived experience has only become 106 00:06:37,344 --> 00:06:41,704 Speaker 1: that much more important for the entertainment industry. It clearly 107 00:06:42,224 --> 00:06:46,024 Speaker 1: was something Elizabeth was able to leverage and take advantage of, 108 00:06:46,424 --> 00:06:49,704 Speaker 1: and it really helped propel her forward in her career. 109 00:06:50,024 --> 00:06:52,264 Speaker 1: And what is the Grey's Anatomy writer's room like? Was 110 00:06:52,304 --> 00:06:55,664 Speaker 1: it like highly competitive? Cutthroat one? Was it like if 111 00:06:55,664 --> 00:06:57,624 Speaker 1: they think of themselves as a family? Like? What is 112 00:06:57,664 --> 00:07:00,504 Speaker 1: the vibe over there? Gray's Anatomy is a show that 113 00:07:00,664 --> 00:07:04,824 Speaker 1: Shonda Land produces, and to work for Shanda Land is 114 00:07:04,904 --> 00:07:08,144 Speaker 1: Shonda Rhymes to create a Gray's Anatomy then goes on 115 00:07:08,224 --> 00:07:10,824 Speaker 1: to create like five other hit shows and gets a 116 00:07:10,864 --> 00:07:14,864 Speaker 1: huge at Netflix. Yeah, it's hard to underestimate how powerful 117 00:07:15,184 --> 00:07:18,784 Speaker 1: and successful Shanda Rhymes is you were talking about. I 118 00:07:18,824 --> 00:07:22,704 Speaker 1: think arguably the most powerful TV producer working today. Shaan 119 00:07:22,904 --> 00:07:26,464 Speaker 1: Land is very precious about its image. I was correspondent 120 00:07:26,504 --> 00:07:29,224 Speaker 1: in Rome and I covered the Vatican, which is an 121 00:07:29,224 --> 00:07:33,824 Speaker 1: incredibly secretive organization, and I swear trying to crack Shonda 122 00:07:33,904 --> 00:07:37,264 Speaker 1: Land was like more difficult than getting into the papal conclave. 123 00:07:37,464 --> 00:07:41,264 Speaker 1: No one would talk it's like there is a strict 124 00:07:41,264 --> 00:07:45,664 Speaker 1: Omertas surrounding it. It's a very coveted and prestigious place 125 00:07:45,704 --> 00:07:49,104 Speaker 1: to work, and they project the image of it being 126 00:07:49,144 --> 00:07:53,704 Speaker 1: a very family friendly, progressive, warm and cuddly place to work, 127 00:07:53,744 --> 00:07:56,464 Speaker 1: and I think for many people it is. But let's 128 00:07:56,464 --> 00:07:59,184 Speaker 1: be honest, the place is called Shonda Land. There's a 129 00:07:59,304 --> 00:08:02,864 Speaker 1: hierarchy inside these places, and if you don't fit into 130 00:08:02,864 --> 00:08:06,704 Speaker 1: the culture that is there, well you're out. Elizabeth's able 131 00:08:06,744 --> 00:08:09,224 Speaker 1: to use her cancer as kind of a cudgel to 132 00:08:09,264 --> 00:08:11,744 Speaker 1: shut anyone else up who was trying to pitch a 133 00:08:11,784 --> 00:08:15,984 Speaker 1: cancer story because she has experienced this, so she can 134 00:08:16,064 --> 00:08:18,144 Speaker 1: kind of shut those conversations down and control them in 135 00:08:18,184 --> 00:08:21,744 Speaker 1: the room, right, correct. Yeah. The surprising part of reporting 136 00:08:21,744 --> 00:08:25,704 Speaker 1: out the story was how much anger there was about Elizabeth, 137 00:08:25,784 --> 00:08:31,224 Speaker 1: not just because she had fabricated these sort of crazy 138 00:08:31,264 --> 00:08:33,264 Speaker 1: elements of her life and sold them to some of 139 00:08:33,224 --> 00:08:35,984 Speaker 1: them's smartest and the most powerful people in the industry, 140 00:08:36,184 --> 00:08:40,744 Speaker 1: but she was kind of nasty to her colleagues in 141 00:08:40,744 --> 00:08:43,744 Speaker 1: the writer's room. And like you said, Joel, that usually 142 00:08:43,784 --> 00:08:50,064 Speaker 1: manifested when individuals came in and tried to pitch ideas 143 00:08:50,824 --> 00:08:54,824 Speaker 1: or stories that cut a little too close to her 144 00:08:55,304 --> 00:08:59,424 Speaker 1: fictional version of her life, and she was not shy 145 00:08:59,984 --> 00:09:03,304 Speaker 1: about letting individuals know they had offended her. She would 146 00:09:03,344 --> 00:09:05,864 Speaker 1: get up and storm out of the writer's room when 147 00:09:05,864 --> 00:09:10,624 Speaker 1: somebody had pitched something that offended her fictional version of 148 00:09:10,624 --> 00:09:13,704 Speaker 1: her life. Okay, and there's one thing to lie and 149 00:09:13,824 --> 00:09:15,424 Speaker 1: tell people you have cancer. I don't know if that's 150 00:09:15,464 --> 00:09:19,424 Speaker 1: one thing, but it's She went a lot further. Like 151 00:09:19,784 --> 00:09:22,224 Speaker 1: the things she did in that room to convince people 152 00:09:22,304 --> 00:09:26,504 Speaker 1: she was sick were amazing, right, Oh yeah, yeah. She 153 00:09:26,704 --> 00:09:29,704 Speaker 1: shaved her head for one thing. And she shaved her 154 00:09:29,744 --> 00:09:32,624 Speaker 1: head and wore a scarf to work every day. Yes, 155 00:09:32,944 --> 00:09:37,424 Speaker 1: and her skin color was always kind of a pale 156 00:09:37,744 --> 00:09:43,224 Speaker 1: like at times would would change. I think she used 157 00:09:43,264 --> 00:09:49,344 Speaker 1: some sorts of cover up and frequently would feign sickness 158 00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:52,224 Speaker 1: as she was she was supposed to be going through chemotherapy, 159 00:09:52,264 --> 00:09:54,944 Speaker 1: so she would race out of the writer's room and 160 00:09:55,064 --> 00:09:57,944 Speaker 1: run to the bathroom and pretend to throw up, and 161 00:09:58,184 --> 00:10:01,664 Speaker 1: sometimes audibly so people could actually hear it. No, she 162 00:10:01,704 --> 00:10:03,664 Speaker 1: would make the noises and then throw stuff in the toilet. 163 00:10:04,104 --> 00:10:07,304 Speaker 1: I don't, I mean, I can only guess. Is there 164 00:10:07,304 --> 00:10:09,144 Speaker 1: an app for that? That makes the noises for you, 165 00:10:09,264 --> 00:10:12,184 Speaker 1: that's incredible. Well, and then she'd come back and then 166 00:10:12,224 --> 00:10:15,184 Speaker 1: she would nibble on saltines and mentioned to everybody that 167 00:10:15,264 --> 00:10:17,304 Speaker 1: saltines were the only thing that she could keep down. 168 00:10:17,464 --> 00:10:20,464 Speaker 1: And she had a porta catheter that she wore. What 169 00:10:20,824 --> 00:10:23,944 Speaker 1: what does that mean? It's a device that when you're 170 00:10:23,984 --> 00:10:27,224 Speaker 1: going through chemotherapy, is basically kind of like an ivy 171 00:10:27,224 --> 00:10:29,944 Speaker 1: into your arm and you wear it underneath your shirt 172 00:10:30,544 --> 00:10:32,544 Speaker 1: and it's like so they can just so it's like 173 00:10:32,744 --> 00:10:34,664 Speaker 1: already in your bodies so they can put the tubes 174 00:10:34,664 --> 00:10:37,544 Speaker 1: into it. Yes, she had a fake one that she 175 00:10:37,624 --> 00:10:40,264 Speaker 1: could see from the silhouette of her t shirt that 176 00:10:40,384 --> 00:10:42,944 Speaker 1: was like around her chest, around around her arm, and 177 00:10:43,024 --> 00:10:44,944 Speaker 1: she wore that for I think, I mean months, if 178 00:10:44,984 --> 00:10:47,984 Speaker 1: not years. This is like a full time job. Yeah, 179 00:10:48,064 --> 00:10:50,984 Speaker 1: just doing this exactly. No, No, the length that she 180 00:10:51,024 --> 00:10:54,584 Speaker 1: went to to maintain this lie was just it was bonkers. 181 00:10:54,824 --> 00:10:57,624 Speaker 1: And didn't she like fly to Minnesota to go to 182 00:10:57,704 --> 00:11:00,664 Speaker 1: the Mayo Clinic where obviously she wasn't being treated, and 183 00:11:00,704 --> 00:11:02,704 Speaker 1: just like walk around the halls there she did. Yes, 184 00:11:02,904 --> 00:11:06,744 Speaker 1: on multiple occasions, she had claimed and told everyone that 185 00:11:06,784 --> 00:11:09,144 Speaker 1: she was Yeah, like you said, at patient at the 186 00:11:09,144 --> 00:11:12,424 Speaker 1: Mayo Clinic, which is, you know, the premier place for 187 00:11:12,584 --> 00:11:15,264 Speaker 1: people suffering from cancer, but it's not the premier place 188 00:11:15,464 --> 00:11:18,384 Speaker 1: for people suffering from fate cancer. They actually are not 189 00:11:18,464 --> 00:11:22,584 Speaker 1: that great there at that. Well. Yes, and she would 190 00:11:22,624 --> 00:11:26,664 Speaker 1: fly into town. She had friends who lived in Minnesota, 191 00:11:26,744 --> 00:11:29,984 Speaker 1: and they would shepherd her to the clinic and she 192 00:11:30,024 --> 00:11:34,264 Speaker 1: would go inside and unbeknownst to these very kind and 193 00:11:34,304 --> 00:11:38,264 Speaker 1: generous friends of hers, she would obviously not have any appointments, 194 00:11:38,264 --> 00:11:40,624 Speaker 1: actual appointment set up, but to keep up the ruse, 195 00:11:40,744 --> 00:11:42,824 Speaker 1: she would go inside and her friends would wait for 196 00:11:42,824 --> 00:11:44,744 Speaker 1: her in their car or go off and she would 197 00:11:44,744 --> 00:11:46,184 Speaker 1: tell them to come back in an hour, and she 198 00:11:46,224 --> 00:11:49,304 Speaker 1: would just waste an hour. Which it's just hard to comprehend. 199 00:11:49,424 --> 00:11:52,264 Speaker 1: She's lying not just to the Grey's Anatomy people at Joanna, 200 00:11:52,384 --> 00:11:54,104 Speaker 1: and she's lying to her family and friends and everyone 201 00:11:54,144 --> 00:11:57,544 Speaker 1: in her life. She's told her parents that she has cancer, 202 00:11:58,424 --> 00:12:02,784 Speaker 1: like fatal cancer. That's a I can't imagine doing that. Yes, 203 00:12:03,104 --> 00:12:06,704 Speaker 1: and her friends and their family were going to extreme 204 00:12:07,224 --> 00:12:10,824 Speaker 1: measures to try and comfort her, bringing her food, they 205 00:12:10,824 --> 00:12:14,104 Speaker 1: would all rally around her. They would send big care packages. 206 00:12:14,144 --> 00:12:18,264 Speaker 1: They were these very elaborate efforts to try and boost 207 00:12:18,264 --> 00:12:22,024 Speaker 1: her spirits, and that went on for years and that 208 00:12:22,144 --> 00:12:25,064 Speaker 1: became a bit of a drug for her. So one 209 00:12:25,064 --> 00:12:27,024 Speaker 1: of the characters on the show, who's a surgeon played 210 00:12:27,024 --> 00:12:30,344 Speaker 1: by Debbie Allen, they give her Elizabeth's disease, that deadly 211 00:12:30,424 --> 00:12:33,584 Speaker 1: bone cancer. It does Debbie Allen pretty much have Elizabeth's 212 00:12:33,584 --> 00:12:37,424 Speaker 1: exact story in the show pretty much. That was very 213 00:12:37,504 --> 00:12:39,864 Speaker 1: much a conscious move on the part of Elizabeth and 214 00:12:40,384 --> 00:12:43,504 Speaker 1: the showrunner to literally make her part of the show. 215 00:12:43,744 --> 00:12:46,504 Speaker 1: So if she had just kept to the cancer, she 216 00:12:46,624 --> 00:12:48,984 Speaker 1: might have gotten away with it. But she starts to 217 00:12:49,064 --> 00:12:52,024 Speaker 1: lie about other stuff too, like what are the other 218 00:12:52,064 --> 00:12:55,664 Speaker 1: things she says happened to her? The two most I 219 00:12:55,704 --> 00:12:59,584 Speaker 1: think shocking ones were that she claimed that her older 220 00:12:59,584 --> 00:13:04,264 Speaker 1: brother had killed himself and announced this to all of 221 00:13:04,304 --> 00:13:08,464 Speaker 1: the colleagues on Gray's and said that she was going 222 00:13:08,504 --> 00:13:09,944 Speaker 1: to be out for a while, she was going to 223 00:13:10,024 --> 00:13:11,904 Speaker 1: have to deal with I read the text that she 224 00:13:11,944 --> 00:13:13,424 Speaker 1: had sent out and she was putting up a very 225 00:13:13,424 --> 00:13:16,104 Speaker 1: grave front and she didn't want anyone to feel sorry 226 00:13:16,144 --> 00:13:18,824 Speaker 1: for her, but they wanted everyone to know, so that 227 00:13:18,864 --> 00:13:22,064 Speaker 1: one was quite shocking. There was the Three of Life 228 00:13:22,104 --> 00:13:24,944 Speaker 1: synagogue shooting, the mass shooting at the at the synagogue 229 00:13:24,944 --> 00:13:30,224 Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, and when that horror, a horrible event occurred. 230 00:13:30,384 --> 00:13:34,504 Speaker 1: Elizabeth claimed that she had been a regular congregant at 231 00:13:34,544 --> 00:13:38,144 Speaker 1: that synagogue, that she was on very close terms with 232 00:13:38,224 --> 00:13:41,184 Speaker 1: several of the victims of the shooting, and that she 233 00:13:41,224 --> 00:13:44,984 Speaker 1: needed to fly to Pittsburgh and said that after the 234 00:13:44,984 --> 00:13:48,584 Speaker 1: shooting occurred that she was let in and witnessed sort 235 00:13:48,624 --> 00:13:50,704 Speaker 1: of the blood. I think I think she had seen 236 00:13:50,784 --> 00:13:54,984 Speaker 1: the blood on the floor of the synagogue, and turns 237 00:13:54,984 --> 00:13:58,224 Speaker 1: out that was also just a fabrication. She kind of 238 00:13:58,224 --> 00:14:01,264 Speaker 1: became the Forrest Gump of tragedies, right, Like, it just 239 00:14:01,304 --> 00:14:03,104 Speaker 1: seems like she's always going to be in the middle 240 00:14:03,184 --> 00:14:07,064 Speaker 1: of anything that's going on. Yeah, it was a point 241 00:14:07,064 --> 00:14:15,544 Speaker 1: of absurdity that all of these things could befall one individual. Yeah, 242 00:14:15,584 --> 00:14:19,024 Speaker 1: after the break, Elizabeth slides finally catch up with her. 243 00:14:19,464 --> 00:14:21,664 Speaker 1: But first, our sponsors are going to sell you some 244 00:14:21,664 --> 00:14:25,504 Speaker 1: products I actually use all the time, like every day, 245 00:14:26,344 --> 00:14:35,984 Speaker 1: I'm totally lying. After years of lying, even Elizabeth Finch 246 00:14:36,064 --> 00:14:38,544 Speaker 1: needed some sort of break from it, and it was 247 00:14:38,584 --> 00:14:42,704 Speaker 1: that break that led to her undoing. She checks herself 248 00:14:42,744 --> 00:14:47,264 Speaker 1: into this mental health facility in Arizona. Why does she 249 00:14:47,344 --> 00:14:49,384 Speaker 1: say she's doing that, Why does she do that? When 250 00:14:49,424 --> 00:14:53,344 Speaker 1: she first checked herself into that treatment facility, it was 251 00:14:53,424 --> 00:14:56,984 Speaker 1: to deal with the trauma that she had experienced from 252 00:14:57,024 --> 00:14:59,744 Speaker 1: the Tree of Life shooting, which we now know was 253 00:15:00,784 --> 00:15:05,424 Speaker 1: yet another fabrication, but at the time that was her explanation, 254 00:15:06,184 --> 00:15:10,784 Speaker 1: and by checking herself into that even facility, she really 255 00:15:10,904 --> 00:15:13,664 Speaker 1: set the stage for her unraveling. But was she doing 256 00:15:13,664 --> 00:15:17,064 Speaker 1: it because she knew she had this like sickness about 257 00:15:17,064 --> 00:15:19,064 Speaker 1: the lying or why was she really checking yourself it? 258 00:15:19,744 --> 00:15:22,464 Speaker 1: That's a great question. Elizabeth would say that in the 259 00:15:22,544 --> 00:15:24,784 Speaker 1: real version, the truthful version of her life, that she 260 00:15:24,864 --> 00:15:27,984 Speaker 1: did have actual trauma that she had suffered from a 261 00:15:28,224 --> 00:15:32,064 Speaker 1: much earlier age, and that she had never really come 262 00:15:32,104 --> 00:15:35,984 Speaker 1: to terms with it. So she claimed that she suffered 263 00:15:36,104 --> 00:15:40,904 Speaker 1: from years of psychological and physical abuse from her older brother. 264 00:15:41,504 --> 00:15:45,944 Speaker 1: That's her explanation. I never spoke or I tried to, 265 00:15:46,064 --> 00:15:49,224 Speaker 1: but her brother didn't want to participate or comment on anything. 266 00:15:49,264 --> 00:15:52,624 Speaker 1: So on account of that trauma, that was part of 267 00:15:52,664 --> 00:15:57,104 Speaker 1: the reason why she felt compelled to dream up all 268 00:15:57,144 --> 00:15:59,584 Speaker 1: of these lies and hold onto them. That they were 269 00:15:59,624 --> 00:16:02,384 Speaker 1: a result of the trauma that she never ultimately confronted. 270 00:16:02,864 --> 00:16:07,184 Speaker 1: So she checks herself into this treatment facility in Arizona, 271 00:16:07,264 --> 00:16:10,744 Speaker 1: which is where she meets this and Jennifer Bayer, who 272 00:16:10,824 --> 00:16:15,024 Speaker 1: is a nurse from Kansas who is there because she's 273 00:16:15,064 --> 00:16:18,424 Speaker 1: survived domestic violence and she's trying to get her life 274 00:16:18,464 --> 00:16:23,064 Speaker 1: back together. And they fell in love right correct. Jennifer 275 00:16:23,824 --> 00:16:27,584 Speaker 1: was in the process of separating from her husband at 276 00:16:27,584 --> 00:16:31,624 Speaker 1: the time when she checked into that facility, and I 277 00:16:31,624 --> 00:16:34,424 Speaker 1: think they ended up rooming together and then they ultimately 278 00:16:34,424 --> 00:16:37,944 Speaker 1: fell in love and they basically started a life together 279 00:16:37,984 --> 00:16:40,104 Speaker 1: and they got married. And they got married. Yeah, they 280 00:16:40,104 --> 00:16:43,064 Speaker 1: got married, and I think they were very happy for 281 00:16:43,184 --> 00:16:46,424 Speaker 1: quite some time. To me, the worst decision Elizabeth makes 282 00:16:46,464 --> 00:16:48,704 Speaker 1: is falling in love with a nurse because she's faking 283 00:16:48,784 --> 00:16:53,264 Speaker 1: cancer and now she's got a medical professional in her life, 284 00:16:53,304 --> 00:16:55,864 Speaker 1: not just like bogus Grays and enemy writers, but someone 285 00:16:55,904 --> 00:16:59,344 Speaker 1: who actually knows medicine. I mean, yeah, I think Jennifer 286 00:17:00,184 --> 00:17:04,184 Speaker 1: had a variety of suspicions pretty early on, and I 287 00:17:04,224 --> 00:17:08,504 Speaker 1: think ultimately they went to doctor's appointments together or some checkups, 288 00:17:09,144 --> 00:17:13,784 Speaker 1: and the big reveal was that Elizabeth had previously claimed 289 00:17:14,424 --> 00:17:18,544 Speaker 1: that during the chemo therapy for her the condious sarcoma 290 00:17:18,784 --> 00:17:20,664 Speaker 1: cancer she had. They had to take out one of 291 00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:24,304 Speaker 1: her kidneys, and so she was basically surviving on one kidney. 292 00:17:24,704 --> 00:17:28,384 Speaker 1: And I think the final straw for Jennifer was when 293 00:17:28,864 --> 00:17:31,904 Speaker 1: she was at the hospital and the doctor revealed to 294 00:17:31,944 --> 00:17:35,504 Speaker 1: her that no, no, actually Elizabeth has has two kidneys. 295 00:17:36,064 --> 00:17:38,584 Speaker 1: That was when I think Jennifer was just had said 296 00:17:38,624 --> 00:17:42,184 Speaker 1: okay and confronted her and demanded that she come clean. 297 00:17:42,664 --> 00:17:47,904 Speaker 1: And Elizabeth confesses to her, and then Jennifer demands that 298 00:17:47,984 --> 00:17:50,744 Speaker 1: for them to maintain their relationship and stay together, that 299 00:17:50,784 --> 00:17:54,064 Speaker 1: she has to come clean to her family and her friends. 300 00:17:54,624 --> 00:17:59,304 Speaker 1: And Elizabeth obviously is extremely you know, upset and nervous 301 00:17:59,344 --> 00:18:03,544 Speaker 1: about doing this, but she agrees, and so they compile 302 00:18:03,664 --> 00:18:05,984 Speaker 1: some sort of list of people that she has to 303 00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:07,984 Speaker 1: come clean to, which are very close friends and family, 304 00:18:08,024 --> 00:18:12,224 Speaker 1: and they meeting with these individuals and Elizabeth is going 305 00:18:12,264 --> 00:18:16,024 Speaker 1: on her what I called a confession tour, and it 306 00:18:16,264 --> 00:18:20,984 Speaker 1: got just basically too uncomfortable for Elizabeth. She said she 307 00:18:21,024 --> 00:18:23,264 Speaker 1: didn't want to do it anymore, and she backed out, 308 00:18:23,864 --> 00:18:27,464 Speaker 1: and that was the first split between Jennifer and Elizabeth. 309 00:18:27,704 --> 00:18:30,664 Speaker 1: That's when things got really bad between them and Jennifer 310 00:18:30,704 --> 00:18:34,464 Speaker 1: took matters into her own hands. Yeah, And Seanda Rhymes 311 00:18:34,504 --> 00:18:37,824 Speaker 1: at this point is making that show Inventing Anna for Netflix, 312 00:18:37,824 --> 00:18:39,824 Speaker 1: which is about a con artist. And then she gets 313 00:18:39,904 --> 00:18:44,304 Speaker 1: literally an email in her personal inbox from Jennifer saying that, like, 314 00:18:44,344 --> 00:18:46,864 Speaker 1: there's a con artist who works for you. Yeah, I 315 00:18:46,944 --> 00:18:49,784 Speaker 1: mean you can't make this stuff up. Well some people can, 316 00:18:50,104 --> 00:18:53,624 Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah they can. So you report and write 317 00:18:53,624 --> 00:18:56,184 Speaker 1: this story And what effect do you think your story 318 00:18:56,184 --> 00:19:00,184 Speaker 1: had on Elizabeth's life? It changed her life forever. As 319 00:19:00,224 --> 00:19:02,824 Speaker 1: soon as that story came out, she told me nothing 320 00:19:02,824 --> 00:19:05,704 Speaker 1: would be the same. She was put immediately on administrative leave. 321 00:19:06,304 --> 00:19:10,464 Speaker 1: She was cut off from all of her colleagues, the 322 00:19:10,904 --> 00:19:13,624 Speaker 1: various family members that she was very very tight with 323 00:19:14,024 --> 00:19:17,224 Speaker 1: basically disowned her, and her wife obviously at that point, 324 00:19:17,504 --> 00:19:19,464 Speaker 1: was leaving her and left her. Her life was just 325 00:19:19,504 --> 00:19:22,824 Speaker 1: flipped on its head and it was just devastating. She 326 00:19:22,864 --> 00:19:26,664 Speaker 1: went from being a star writer, producer on one of 327 00:19:26,704 --> 00:19:30,544 Speaker 1: the most popular shows in the world to being one 328 00:19:30,584 --> 00:19:34,624 Speaker 1: of the most loathed pariahs to come along in Hollywood 329 00:19:34,624 --> 00:19:37,024 Speaker 1: in a very very, very long time. And then seven 330 00:19:37,064 --> 00:19:39,864 Speaker 1: months after this story comes out and you've ruined her life, 331 00:19:40,704 --> 00:19:42,784 Speaker 1: She tells you that she wants to talk to you, 332 00:19:43,184 --> 00:19:50,384 Speaker 1: like you totally shocked by this. I was pretty shocked. Yeah, 333 00:19:50,424 --> 00:19:54,504 Speaker 1: but it made some sense because she said that she 334 00:19:54,624 --> 00:19:57,424 Speaker 1: knew that if there was any chance that she was 335 00:19:57,464 --> 00:20:00,824 Speaker 1: going to be able to rehabilitate her career in her 336 00:20:00,864 --> 00:20:04,664 Speaker 1: life and try and make some sort of comeback, whatever 337 00:20:04,664 --> 00:20:07,264 Speaker 1: that may ultimately be, she had to go through the 338 00:20:07,264 --> 00:20:11,864 Speaker 1: crucible of sitting down with a journalist who was going 339 00:20:11,944 --> 00:20:14,824 Speaker 1: to ask her very hard questions and who was going 340 00:20:14,904 --> 00:20:19,864 Speaker 1: to ultimately tell the full version of her side of 341 00:20:19,864 --> 00:20:22,704 Speaker 1: the story and then the full story. And was it 342 00:20:22,784 --> 00:20:25,104 Speaker 1: tense when you were at our house or was it 343 00:20:25,504 --> 00:20:28,224 Speaker 1: comfortable talking to her? Or like did you feel guilty? 344 00:20:28,344 --> 00:20:30,264 Speaker 1: Like what did you feel like when you're there? I 345 00:20:30,304 --> 00:20:34,304 Speaker 1: didn't feel guilty. I felt it was a little tense 346 00:20:34,344 --> 00:20:39,384 Speaker 1: at first. She's she's got a strange um. She's she's 347 00:20:39,384 --> 00:20:42,144 Speaker 1: got a she's she was very demure and very polite, 348 00:20:42,664 --> 00:20:45,224 Speaker 1: but she's she's got a she doesn't make you totally 349 00:20:45,264 --> 00:20:48,024 Speaker 1: comfortable in her presence um. So there's there was that 350 00:20:48,144 --> 00:20:50,984 Speaker 1: just sort of weird dynamic. Basically, I went to her house, 351 00:20:51,024 --> 00:20:53,544 Speaker 1: into Panga and we sat out on this deck and 352 00:20:53,624 --> 00:20:56,104 Speaker 1: she's got a very nice house. I never stepped foot inside, 353 00:20:56,184 --> 00:20:57,584 Speaker 1: and I was fine with that. We sat out on 354 00:20:57,624 --> 00:21:00,464 Speaker 1: her deck and it was always very cordial, and we 355 00:21:00,704 --> 00:21:03,264 Speaker 1: joked around and she was She liked to laugh and 356 00:21:03,424 --> 00:21:06,344 Speaker 1: I was. I asked her really hard and penetrating questions, 357 00:21:06,424 --> 00:21:09,744 Speaker 1: extremely personal stuff, and she answered everything. You know, I 358 00:21:09,824 --> 00:21:12,344 Speaker 1: ultimately kind of felt really bad for her. Look, she 359 00:21:12,384 --> 00:21:15,224 Speaker 1: did she did some terrible things. And you can start 360 00:21:15,264 --> 00:21:19,184 Speaker 1: getting into this question of you know, did she hurt 361 00:21:19,224 --> 00:21:23,024 Speaker 1: anyone physically? No, you know, what exactly did she do wrong? 362 00:21:23,064 --> 00:21:25,144 Speaker 1: That's a you kind of get into these big, big 363 00:21:25,184 --> 00:21:28,104 Speaker 1: moral questions about where does this fall in the hierarchy 364 00:21:28,224 --> 00:21:31,144 Speaker 1: of I don't know, you lie to your parents having cancer? 365 00:21:31,304 --> 00:21:33,464 Speaker 1: You did wrong. Yeah. I'm not trying to absolve her 366 00:21:33,544 --> 00:21:35,864 Speaker 1: in any any way, shape or form, but it was 367 00:21:36,224 --> 00:21:39,984 Speaker 1: it was. It was just a very intense experience. It's 368 00:21:40,024 --> 00:21:42,304 Speaker 1: so hard for you to report this story because you're 369 00:21:42,344 --> 00:21:46,024 Speaker 1: dealing with a liar, Like, how do you deal with that? Well? You, yeah, 370 00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:50,544 Speaker 1: I mean it's hard. It was very challenging. And honestly, 371 00:21:50,584 --> 00:21:53,624 Speaker 1: I've I've written thousands of stories in my career. I've 372 00:21:53,704 --> 00:21:56,904 Speaker 1: never really inserted myself in a story like using the 373 00:21:56,944 --> 00:22:01,944 Speaker 1: first person, and you've made a career out of it. 374 00:22:02,024 --> 00:22:05,344 Speaker 1: But so on this one, I had no choice, mainly 375 00:22:05,424 --> 00:22:08,304 Speaker 1: because we had to sort of explain to the reader 376 00:22:09,104 --> 00:22:12,864 Speaker 1: this sort of complicated situation that we were sharing with 377 00:22:12,904 --> 00:22:16,184 Speaker 1: them and let them know that, Like, you know, I 378 00:22:16,224 --> 00:22:19,144 Speaker 1: did the best I could. I think Elizabeth was very 379 00:22:19,184 --> 00:22:21,704 Speaker 1: honest and upfront with me, but you know, it's hard 380 00:22:21,744 --> 00:22:25,624 Speaker 1: to tell. And she told you she started lying because 381 00:22:25,664 --> 00:22:28,984 Speaker 1: she had once hurt her knee and had a knee replacement, 382 00:22:28,984 --> 00:22:31,264 Speaker 1: and everyone was so nice to her when she had 383 00:22:31,304 --> 00:22:34,144 Speaker 1: it that she decided to do more of that. Do 384 00:22:34,184 --> 00:22:38,384 Speaker 1: you buy that? I kind of do, me too well, 385 00:22:38,464 --> 00:22:43,264 Speaker 1: I insofar as I think part of her pathology is 386 00:22:43,264 --> 00:22:47,624 Speaker 1: that she needs attention, and she craves people being around 387 00:22:47,704 --> 00:22:50,824 Speaker 1: her and caring for her and her feeling special. And 388 00:22:51,024 --> 00:22:54,784 Speaker 1: so I think the actual injuries she sustained when she 389 00:22:54,824 --> 00:22:59,424 Speaker 1: was hiking ultimately prompted this certain level of attention and 390 00:22:59,504 --> 00:23:03,544 Speaker 1: care from her friends, and that for her was her drug. 391 00:23:03,864 --> 00:23:07,184 Speaker 1: It almost became like an addiction. I think. Yeah, one 392 00:23:07,184 --> 00:23:09,264 Speaker 1: of the many things I learned from your story is 393 00:23:09,504 --> 00:23:14,504 Speaker 1: factitious disorder, which some people thought maybe she has. This 394 00:23:14,584 --> 00:23:19,704 Speaker 1: is fascinating what is that it's like when individuals, many 395 00:23:19,744 --> 00:23:23,264 Speaker 1: of whom work in or adjacent to the medical industry, 396 00:23:24,224 --> 00:23:28,184 Speaker 1: create health problems for themselves and sell them to their 397 00:23:28,184 --> 00:23:31,424 Speaker 1: friends and families for a variety of reasons, many I 398 00:23:31,464 --> 00:23:34,624 Speaker 1: think also to draw attention and sympathy to themselves. Right, 399 00:23:34,664 --> 00:23:36,784 Speaker 1: But you're a nurse and you hear about some disease 400 00:23:36,824 --> 00:23:39,064 Speaker 1: and then you claim you haven't and it happens in 401 00:23:39,104 --> 00:23:41,664 Speaker 1: the healthcare industry. But the weird part of this is 402 00:23:41,704 --> 00:23:44,344 Speaker 1: that it happened to someone who's you know, on a 403 00:23:44,384 --> 00:23:48,544 Speaker 1: TV show about the healthcare industry, right exactly. So she's 404 00:23:48,624 --> 00:23:51,584 Speaker 1: living in this house all the way up into Panga 405 00:23:51,624 --> 00:23:54,864 Speaker 1: and her reputation's gone. But she has a plan, right, 406 00:23:54,904 --> 00:23:56,624 Speaker 1: Like she talked to you about what she thinks she 407 00:23:56,624 --> 00:24:01,384 Speaker 1: should be doing next. We talked about it. She hopes 408 00:24:01,464 --> 00:24:05,344 Speaker 1: that she can someday mount to come back. I asked her, 409 00:24:05,624 --> 00:24:08,304 Speaker 1: you know, if she had her druthers, what would be 410 00:24:08,384 --> 00:24:11,624 Speaker 1: the dream show for her? And what's the show she picked? Well, 411 00:24:11,744 --> 00:24:15,184 Speaker 1: she picked Handmaid's Tale. Unbelievable. It was the perfect coda 412 00:24:15,264 --> 00:24:17,824 Speaker 1: to the story, I thought with the Handmaids Tale, because 413 00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:21,224 Speaker 1: she believes that she is the female hero who's going 414 00:24:21,264 --> 00:24:25,424 Speaker 1: to salvage herself against a world against her or what 415 00:24:25,824 --> 00:24:28,064 Speaker 1: is the analogy there? I can read you the quote 416 00:24:28,104 --> 00:24:32,224 Speaker 1: she gave me. Yes, she says, I've struggled with that 417 00:24:32,264 --> 00:24:34,144 Speaker 1: show a lot, and I love what they're doing in 418 00:24:34,184 --> 00:24:37,224 Speaker 1: the world of redemption and what redemption looks like and 419 00:24:37,264 --> 00:24:40,384 Speaker 1: what accountability looks like. It's taken a lot of hits 420 00:24:40,424 --> 00:24:43,784 Speaker 1: because people have wanted certain survivors, characters who are survivors 421 00:24:43,784 --> 00:24:46,624 Speaker 1: to act a specific way. They want them to be 422 00:24:46,704 --> 00:24:50,064 Speaker 1: less angry or less this or less that, and characters 423 00:24:50,104 --> 00:24:52,384 Speaker 1: are reacting in all different types of ways to pain 424 00:24:53,024 --> 00:24:58,864 Speaker 1: and to suffering. So it's another very sort of meta 425 00:24:58,864 --> 00:25:04,344 Speaker 1: component to an absolutely bizarre story. Peter Keeper, you wrote 426 00:25:04,384 --> 00:25:07,984 Speaker 1: the Grays Anatomy liar confesses it all. Thanks for coming 427 00:25:08,024 --> 00:25:11,984 Speaker 1: on the show, Thanks for having me, Joel. People accuse 428 00:25:12,064 --> 00:25:14,344 Speaker 1: me all the time of making up stuff in my 429 00:25:14,424 --> 00:25:18,864 Speaker 1: columns that I'm like exaggerating what happened, and I'm totally not. 430 00:25:19,304 --> 00:25:21,144 Speaker 1: I always want to bring out my tape recorder and 431 00:25:21,224 --> 00:25:25,184 Speaker 1: play them the interviews they know it's totally real. Then again, 432 00:25:25,504 --> 00:25:28,024 Speaker 1: I've never been invited to be a writer on Grey's Anatomy, 433 00:25:29,064 --> 00:25:33,504 Speaker 1: so SHANDU. If you're listening, I have this really rare 434 00:25:33,664 --> 00:25:36,544 Speaker 1: rash on my paraneum and I'm happy to talk about 435 00:25:36,584 --> 00:25:42,544 Speaker 1: it extensively. At the end of the show, what's next 436 00:25:42,544 --> 00:25:46,704 Speaker 1: for Joel Stein? Maybe he'll take a naver poke around online. 437 00:25:48,784 --> 00:25:53,504 Speaker 1: Our show today was produced by Molaboard and Nisha Bencutt. 438 00:25:54,224 --> 00:25:58,264 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lydia Gencott. Our engineer is Amanda 439 00:25:58,344 --> 00:26:03,344 Speaker 1: kay Wang and our executive producer is Katherine Shiradol. And 440 00:26:03,424 --> 00:26:06,344 Speaker 1: our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton 441 00:26:06,664 --> 00:26:09,384 Speaker 1: and a special thanks to my voice coach Vick Eric 442 00:26:09,544 --> 00:26:14,024 Speaker 1: and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 443 00:26:14,344 --> 00:26:18,184 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 444 00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:21,624 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein, and this is 445 00:26:21,624 --> 00:26:23,824 Speaker 1: the story of the week. I saw you at a 446 00:26:23,864 --> 00:26:27,304 Speaker 1: party not long ago. We were talking about this very 447 00:26:27,344 --> 00:26:29,424 Speaker 1: story because you were about to go do this reporting. 448 00:26:29,704 --> 00:26:32,504 Speaker 1: And I confess to you that I think I knew 449 00:26:32,504 --> 00:26:35,704 Speaker 1: about this story before you did and decided that it 450 00:26:35,784 --> 00:26:38,984 Speaker 1: wasn't worth pursuing. I remember this, Joel. Yeah, it's not 451 00:26:39,064 --> 00:26:41,944 Speaker 1: a good sign. I think I prove you wrong. By 452 00:26:41,944 --> 00:26:43,864 Speaker 1: the mere fact that I'm on your show now, which 453 00:26:43,944 --> 00:26:45,544 Speaker 1: is a little kind come up, It's for you.